Training Insights from Alex Ostberg, Assistant Coach at Bowerman TC & Former RC Coach

Alex Ostberg [00:00:00]: I'm gonna separate neurotic habits from the things that actually matter. The the training matters. Like, the literally, like, the the volume of training, the intensity training matters. The sleep that you get matters. The food that you put in your body matters. But the illusion that I was under at the time is that performance was about control and performance was about perfection. And I've forgotten that adaptability matters just as much. And so I think people who are superstitious and that that layer more and more rituals and, like, these, like, exhausting habits on top of, like, the work that's already been done, like, I think all that does really is make you a bit more fragile.

Cory Nagler [00:00:35]: That was a great clip you just heard from one of my favorite coaches, Alex Osberg. He joined Runners Connect back in 2022, while competing for UNC Chapel Hill and pursuing his master's in public health. He's a 7 time all American, and a super reflective runner who's recorded tons of podcasts with us, before somewhat recently in 2024, accepting a position as assistant coach at the Bowerman Track Club. If you haven't heard of the Bowerman Track Club, they have some of the most talented distance runners on the planet, including Olympic medalists like Grant Fisher, Mohammed Ahmed, Evan Jaeger, and the list just goes on. I'm super excited we got him back on the show to chat about what it's like coaching the fastest runners on the planet and get his advice for runners of all levels who are trying to improve their performance. Alex is a wealth of knowledge with great training insights, so let's get into it. Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler.

Cory Nagler [00:01:43]: And I'm not an elite runner. But together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Alright. I'm joined by an RC coach who's now coaching some pretty crazy talented athletes, somewhat fresh off a new role with the Bowerman Elite Track Club. Alex, how have you been?

Alex Ostberg [00:02:15]: Good. Thanks, Corey. It's, it's nice to be back. I know we did several of these, these podcasts back in the day when I was coaching in RC. Yeah. It was a big transition. It happened, you know, about a year ago when I when I decided to take the job and embark on this new adventure to be, to be an assistant coach at the Balmer Track Club. And I can certainly say it's been even just within a year, the adventure of a lifetime.

Alex Ostberg [00:02:37]: I got a chance to join during an Olympic year. I'm working with a phenomenal roster of athletes, and, it's just been it's been an incredible opportunity to pursue in my mid twenties. I feel very fortunate and lucky.

Cory Nagler [00:02:49]: Yeah. And it's been how many months now as we're recording this in January? Is it about 3, 4 months now?

Alex Ostberg [00:02:55]: It's actually been longer. I, so I first found out about the job last January from from Jerry Schumacher, who's the head coach. And I ended up going out to the altitude training camp that they were at in Flagstaff in in early February. And then I guess, that was kind of when I was almost in, like, a little bit of an apprenticeship role. I was learning a lot from Jerry and getting to know the team. And so, technically, I'd I'd started then, but I really felt like I I kind of found my stride and, and, felt a lot more comfortable and confident in the job once you got closer to the summer, which coincided nicely because I Olympic push. So it's it's actually been in in total now about a year. And, but I feel like my progress and my confidence has definitely been accelerating in recent months, so it's been pretty fun.

Cory Nagler [00:03:41]: So come Olympic time, I know that's passed now, but who do you root for when you've got American and Canadian athletes in your, perhaps for, for my own support wearing a Canadian, athletics hat. Is that right?

Alex Ostberg [00:03:54]: Yes. Yes. I was I was saying, just for the audience, before we went live, I told Corey I'd I put on my team Canada hat. This is a a generous gift that I got from Mohammed, who's one of the guys on the roster here. You know, most of the time, I'm not forced to choose. I think I can I can root for both the Canadians and the Americans that we're coaching? The one the one time where those kind of came in conflict was at the 10000 meter final in Paris. A good a very, very good friend of mine from college, Grant Fisher, ended up getting bronze and Moe was 4th by, like, less than a tenth of a second. And so it was this incredibly confusing mix of emotions where it's heartbreaking for Moe because he ran so unbelievably well, and it would have been so awesome to see him win a medal in that 10,000.

Alex Ostberg [00:04:39]: Yet at the same time, I was, like, elated for grants. This is a guy who I've seen developed through the sport over the past 10 years, and I I shared 5 year 4 years with him at Stanford. So, that was probably the only time where, those things, you know, my ability to support both were, you know, was a little bit more mutually exclusive. But, other than that, I support all the athletes that I coach equally. It's it's fun to see them succeed for whatever country they represent.

Cory Nagler [00:05:05]: Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up because that's exactly the example I was thinking of and so heartbreaking for any Canadian viewer.

Alex Ostberg [00:05:12]: I know. I know. It it was it was one of those things where Moe I mean, it had to have been one of probably the best one of the best races of, as I said, life in terms of, I think, execution alone. That was a it was a messy final in that. It was the the, East Africans went to the front and started fartlegging a lot, and they kept it really honest. I mean, this win the winning time was, like, 26:40, give or take, which is, you know, mind boggling how fast that is. And that that's only about less than 10 seconds off of this PB. And so, it it was one of those things where these Olympic finals are so scarce.

Alex Ostberg [00:05:45]: They only happen once every 4 years, and you have to be positioned well, in order to to, you know, medal or you have a chance of meddling. And he did all he made all the right moves, and it is I I think one of the conclusions that I've come to is you can still run a perfect race and not win. And that may have been one of those things he gave us. He distributed his effort really well. He kicked really well. He was in unbelievably good shape, But there were there were 3 guys on that day who were just marginally better. And, I think he walked away from that one definitely disappointed, but I think very proud of his effort.

Cory Nagler [00:06:19]: Oh, yeah. A 100%. And I definitely want this podcast to focus a little bit on sort of what that coaching role entails and also some of the insights that you've gained for athletes. But I think this is a pretty good bridge for it because as you said, it was such a well executed race. And in Moe's own words, he ran an effing good race, I believe, was the quote on air. So you maybe tell us a little bit about what you do as an assistant coach at Bowerman? And then also putting on that coaching hat, how do you analyze a race like that where you just run phenomenally and maybe still don't get the result you were looking for?

Alex Ostberg [00:06:52]: Yeah. Sure. So I guess we'll break that down one at a time. So the the coaching role, I mean, my my role as a coach, really what it comes down to is this is a Nike funded team. We we try to get the best athletes in the world on our roster. A lot of them are Americans, some are Canadian. We have a new female athlete that just joined. She's from Lithuania.

Alex Ostberg [00:07:12]: So it just kind of depends. We we work closely with Nike Sports Marketing to identify the talent to get them on the roster and then try to provide a really good experience for them here. Ultimately, the bottom line is, we're here to run really fast. We're here to make Olympic teams, and we're here to win an annual and world championship teams, and we're here to win medals. And I think each athlete on their own kind of developmental trajectory curve has different things that are possible for them. Someone like Mohammed is, you know, one of he's he's like a 1 in a 1000000000 talent, basically. And he he is capable of for now, almost 10 years in a row, being in medal contention at world championships and Olympics. That's very rare.

Alex Ostberg [00:07:52]: But, you know, I think what we're trying to do is take take every athlete in our system and try to squeeze out as much potential as possible so that when their career is over, they felt like they gave it everything that they had, and we're here to I'm really here, I think, to facilitate that process. So I I should mention if it wasn't already said, I work very closely with Jerry Schumacher who's the head coach at Baumann Track Club. He's been the head coach now, I think, since around 2,008. So it's been, you know, going on 20 years. He's he's been at the helm here, and is obviously, in my opinion, one of the best coaches in the world and has the the track record to prove it. So I'm I'm learning a lot from him, and I think there's also, you know, my my ability to check my ego at the door and be willing to learn and kind of help to smooth out some of the operational inefficiencies that that were here before I arrived is is definitely very important. There's this theory in psychology if anyone taken psych 101 called Maslow's hierarchy of needs, where you kind of have this pyramid of different, like, needs that humans need to be met in order to ultimately, like, pursue, like, unobstructed self expression at the top or, like, chase really big goals. And, like, at a minimum, like, you need to be fed and you need you need to have water, then you need to feel, like, psychologically safe, then you need to be in, like, a stable environment, and you need to feel like you belong to something.

Alex Ostberg [00:09:06]: And only after you've satisfied all of those different levels of the pyramid can you pursue the peak, which is, like, you know, pursuing mastery, chasing your goals. And I feel like a lot of my job as a coach is to make sure that these athletes feel like there's there's someone in their corner at all times to support them. I think it's to make sure they feel like they belong in the group, that their voice will be heard. And as much as possible, just to try to make this experience, as enjoyable as it can be. But, you know, being a professional owner is exhausting, it's tiring, and and it definitely demands a lot of sacrifice. So, I think that's that's a big part of my thing. The other thing that I find particularly exciting is, you know, we're we're definitely on the frontier of human potential and we're exploring what people are capable of. And so we're always trying to chase what new ideas we can pursue to try to get, you know, people faster.

Alex Ostberg [00:09:56]: And with my background in exercise physiology and a lot of the experience that I've had talking to research researchers and scientists and and other coaches, that that's that's a fun part of the job for me to explore these new ideas, these new optimization strategies. And I think the one thing that I do need to keep in mind sometimes is that I'd like to have a really wide funnel, but a tight filter. Like, I try to take in as many ideas as possible, but you also have to recognize that stakes are pretty high in this environment, and you don't really have the luxury of getting a chance to, like, experiment on people. You know? Like, these people this this this is their livelihood. This is their career. And so every strategy that's implemented needs to be very carefully thought through, it needs to be very strategic and methodical. And, that's one thing I've enjoyed working with Jerry on is just, like, what's our strategy, and and how are we gonna go about pursuing that in a way that is, effective and safe? And then I think the other question that you had mentioned, was how do I analyze a race like that? I think splits tell you some part of the story. I mean but I think what I've really begun to appreciate is how much the feedback from the athletes themselves matter.

Alex Ostberg [00:11:05]: Like, I feel like my reflection on a race is only, like, half complete, if that, until I've had the conversation to debrief with an athlete. Because there's so much that's happening that either a, isn't really visible to the naked eye when I'm up in the stands in the Stade de France, like, watching this from, like, you know, 200 feet away in the stands. And and there's there's also the the emotional, and mental component of the race that, like, I can't get inside their head until it's over. And and there's an intersection of, like, physiology and psychology here that you cannot you can't necessarily appreciate until you've had that conversation. So I think I think a big part of coaching is preparing people so that they're physiologically at their prime. But then also appreciating that, like, you know, at some point in time, like, the ball's in their court, they're gonna have to go try to hit that home run. And, like, we're here to support them as much as possible. And then we can only fully understand that experience once we've broken it down with them afterwards.

Cory Nagler [00:11:58]: Yeah. For sure. Right off the bat, I gotta say, Alex, I I love that you're still bringing in psychology and philosophy into these podcasts. So happy to hear that some things haven't changed. But I think some people, including myself, might be a little bit surprised to hear just how much of your role is supporting these athletes from maybe a psychological stand piece given that these are some of the most motivated and talented people on the planet. So maybe using Moe or another athlete you've worked with as an example, what does that conversation look like after a race?

Alex Ostberg [00:12:30]: Yeah. No. I I think you're right. I mean, I can't help myself now that you even brought it up. Like, just bring in another psychological concept. There's this idea called the halo effect, which is when you look up to your, you look up to your heroes, you assume that if they're really good at one thing, then they must be perfect in all of the realms of their life. And, I kind of, like, I've been around I've been fortunate enough to been around enough high performance to know that, like, everybody wakes up in the morning and, like, has to put their pants on the same way. And, like, you know, everybody is you we we all have our own struggles and our own, you know, deficiencies and challenges, myself included.

Alex Ostberg [00:13:05]: So I think even though you get to see the moment on TV where these guys are these these guys and women are chasing, you know, these these metal performances, like, behind the scenes, which is really where I spend most of my time. You know, the relations only represent, like, 1% of all the time we spent together, if that. There's there's challenges. There's there's doubts. There's there's fears. There's failures that happen. And I think, like, even elite athletes get in their own way sometimes. And I think I don't wanna, by any stretch of the imagination, claim that I'm a licensed psychologist or anything like that.

Alex Ostberg [00:13:35]: I'm not a sports psychologist, but I've been around enough high performers to be able to recognize, like, there's some patterns of thinking that tend to be a little bit faulty. And I think sometimes you need to just get out of your own head because when we're when you're an elite performer, like, you're just programmed to think hard work solves all problems. And you're programmed to think that, like, if some is good, more is better. And, like, if anyone less has listened to this podcast for a while, like, you've probably started to realize that, like, some of these series don't really hold up when you take them to the extreme. And so I find that my role is is sometimes pretty helpful in having these conversations and this dialogue back and forth. You recognize that when people externalize their thoughts, they usually can make a little bit more sense of them. When you just have these open loops running through your own head, like, it's pretty hard to reach conclusions. So I I find that those conversations are particularly helpful.

Alex Ostberg [00:14:23]: We're not really good at gamer giving ourselves good advice. You know? And so just having a coach that's like an objective observer on the outside to bounce ideas off of the thing is particularly helpful. And then, you know, I feel like a lot of my job sometimes is just also providing reassurance. You know? Like, a lot of times someone will have a a bad race or a bad workout and my you know, a joke that I sometimes make is that a distance runner is only as confident as their last good good session. Right? And, that's just like by definition not really that true. Like, the block of work that you've done matters so much more than the one session that may have been a little bit off. And And so I have to I'd like a lot of times I will remind people of that. And it is important though that, like, when you're having these conversations, empty promises or empty reassurances don't really hold up.

Alex Ostberg [00:15:08]: Like, people know when you're BS ing them. And so I find that leaning on my background, especially in exercise physiology and kind of explaining these things logically and in in in the biological framework from which I understand them is particularly helpful. So, hopefully hopefully, that answers some of your questions.

Cory Nagler [00:15:25]: Yeah. I think it does. And I I I think that mindset piece about not dwelling on your most recent workout is an important one. And I can't remember who the athlete was, but I heard one professional athlete talk about how they always remember that they are as good as their best workout. And on any given day, the best workout that they've done recently, they have that potential even if they didn't run it on that day. Do you think that's true, or is maybe consistency a little bit, more important than just your best day?

Alex Ostberg [00:15:53]: I think sometimes we have this impression that for peak performance, you need to channel lightning in a bottle, and and you need to kind of harness this magic on race day, which I think is a little bit of a faulty assumption. I think that if you're sampling from a period of, like, 100 different sessions that you do, of course, you're gonna be able to knock it out of the park, you know, like, 2 to 3% of the time. And and the challenge is can you try to recreate those conditions, on race day in the midst of, you know, an unpredictable environment around competitors that you don't know how they're gonna respond to scenarios, potentially in a foreign country on a different time zone. Like, all these things start getting harder and harder. So I I a lot of times will tend to remind people, yes. I think there's a degree of of, of this which is, you know, you can be as good as you were on your best session. But also, like, understanding that, like, you don't need to do something superhuman on race day to be good. You know? Like, if you can show up and just try to get a base hit to pull on a baseball analogy rather than swinging for the fences, you're probably gonna be a little bit better off, than than if you go in, swing for the fences all, like, all the time and then probably gonna strike out.

Alex Ostberg [00:17:02]: So it's it's threading the needle between those two approaches, because, you know, I think you will have good races and bad races, and there's not necessarily a guarantee that you're gonna be able to, like, recreate that magic every single time.

Cory Nagler [00:17:17]: So, Alex, what does get on base mean for some of these athletes at the Olympics? Because I have to think Grant Fisher wasn't lining up in that final going, hey. If I'm within a few seconds of a medal, that's good enough for me.

Alex Ostberg [00:17:27]: No. You're right. You're right. I think that the reality is almost everyone in that Olympic final can run 8 kilometers of that race in pretty close proximity. And I think the pretenders and the contenders are all intermingled for, like, about that long, and then the rubber really meets the road. And so I think the big thing for Grant is, like, you know, if you are like, a a lot of times you think about this is just, like, how it it mentally, like, if you're pouring all of your energy into the first, like, kilometer or 2 of that race, like, your your energy management is just kinda start going downhill the longer that you go. And I think the best athletes know how to keep themselves calm. And I think sometimes it's just playing mind tricks on yourself.

Alex Ostberg [00:18:11]: Like, hey. Like, I'm just trying to hit a base hit. I'm just trying to stay calm. I'm just trying to stay invisible in this pack. If you watch Grant, he just locked in the 3rd or 4th place and then maybe drifted back a little bit in the middle. But he was, like, completely invisible in that pack. He's he did not show his face in the front at one time until it really mattered. And I think the biggest thing is, like, to to kinda go back to the analogy which, which you mentioned is, like, I think when you're on the line and you're in the lead up to the race, I think those are the conversations you need to have.

Alex Ostberg [00:18:36]: But it's undoubtedly true that when that move is made, you have to be like a cold blooded killer in those moments. And you can't just be trying to, like, get on base. When when when you enter the last 1600 meters of a 10000 meter race at the Olympic final, like, there's no planet safe at that point in time. So I guess it's really digging into the nuance there of, like, how do you approach the day to day, the lead up to the race especially when you need to keep people calm and and grounded versus, like, hey. All bets are off when this thing really gets going. Like, that's when you really need to go for it.

Cory Nagler [00:19:08]: Yeah. I'd love to get more into this day to day. Because, originally, I wanted to ask you about what is the process for designing a training plan for these athletes. But that was going off the assumption that that was most of your role. And it it sounds like from what you've described, that's really only a small part of it. So what what's your role in the day to day to making sure that whether it's Grant or Moe or any other super talented athlete that they tow that start line as ready as they can to perform at their best?

Alex Ostberg [00:19:32]: Yeah. So, I guess we've spent a good amount of time so far talking about more of the support role of, like, you know, the psychological elements of this, and and that's something that I enjoy talking about. It's something I've kind of carved that role out of my job description. But I I certainly will say that, like, the the training itself, the nuts and bolts, the x's and o's of training is definitely also an important role. It's just that, in this system right now, I recognize that Jerry Schumacher who's been doing this again for more than 20 years has has a proven track record of producing Olympic medalist. Like, he is one of the best people in the entire world at, like, workout design and training design. So, like, I may have, you know, on the margin a little less input with, like, how that's going to be structured, and I'll I'll be a little bit more involved in, like, tweaking things as they're unfolding on the ground. Like, I like to say that, I'm at pretty much every single session that a Bowerman athlete will do.

Alex Ostberg [00:20:25]: Jerry is also the head coach of the Oregon track University of Oregon track and field team. So there are occasionally times when we have to split, and I will be, like, up at altitude with the team while Jerry is in Eugene, Oregon. Jerry will pretty much be at every session that really matters, but there's occasionally some that I'm at where he's not. And and I think really where my job comes in is I know his intent of the session. I know what was written on the page, but there's inevitably get inevitably going to be scenarios whether it's factors like wind, rain, like, the athletes just having a tough day. Like, how are you going to pivot off of the initial plan and still salvage a decent session when things are starting to go off track? And so there's definitely a big element of my job, which is, like, understanding the nuts and bolts of the training program, understanding how we write a season plan, understanding how we're gonna progress each athlete from race to race, season to season. So I'd say that's equally as important of a role in my opinion, but it's also where I lean on Jerry's expertise to do a lot more learning, and a little less implementing for now. And I would like to kinda continue growing in that role and getting better at that myself, but he's I mean, you know, you you wanna give people space to operate where they're better than anybody else and that's one of his strengths for sure.

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Cory Nagler [00:24:19]: Is there any way in which your coaching philosophies have changed a lot from your time coaching with the runners connect community?

Alex Ostberg [00:24:26]: Yeah. It's a great question. Yes. Short answer. I think one of the biggest things is that you can't do normal things at this level and expect to get abnormal returns. Like, extreme people get extreme results. And, like, everything that we do, people are working so hard to try to penetrate the top 3 in the world that, like, you you really do need to outwork your competitors. And so what does that practically mean? I think in my opinion, what I have taken from this approach is that you really need to have us incredibly high, sometimes an uncomfortably high risk tolerance for what you're pursuing.

Alex Ostberg [00:25:05]: I came from a system in college and in high school where I think I was coached appropriately, fairly defensively. Because I had a a fair amount of talent as a runner, and and usually the limiting factor for me was not how fit can I get, but it's can I be healthy enough when it matters? Can I get through the season without having gotten injured? And so I I give my college coach, Chris Milton Berg, a ton of credit, for for helping me, you know, get to the line in one piece as fit as I possibly could be. But also, like, we had to be a little bit more defensive. Like, we had to we we were, like, doing a little bit less mileage. We were cutting the sessions a little bit shorter. I mean, you can't win medals by trying to play it safe. Just just to put it bluntly. You do need to keep people healthy because consistency is ultimately what matters even for elite athletes.

Alex Ostberg [00:25:49]: But you almost have to be like, hey. We need to try to find the line, and we're gonna dance on that razor's edge for a while. And, like, that's just the reality of the sport right now. And, occasionally, some people are gonna get hurt. And, like, that's just, I think, an inevitability at this point in time because if you're not finding that line, you're leaving potential space unexplored, and you don't wanna feel like you were 4th place in an Olympic final because you didn't push it hard enough. So I I think I think right now, I've learned to coach a little bit more offensively, which I'm not saying is necessarily the right approach for every athlete. But at this level, that's certainly what's required. I also think to kinda relate it to that idea is you can't finesse your way to the top.

Alex Ostberg [00:26:32]: Like, for every psychological trick that we could go back and forth on and every mental, like, you know, sports psychology thing that we can we we could discuss about how to try to optimize race day. Like, the reality is if you're trying to break 13 minutes in the 5 k or you're trying to win an Olympic medal, you need an irrefutable stack of evidence that you have physically done the work needed to get there. Right? Like, if you're gonna try and break 13 minutes, you need to know that you can run 62 seconds per lap without fail for, like, more than 12 laps. And I think the the thing there is just like you just you need to have an enormous block of work that that gives you the physiological and psychological confidence to go ahead and do that. The last thing that's kind of changed as well is that this idea of capitalizing on your good days is something like so when I was when I would coach a little bit more defensively, I would really put an upper bound on what we were gonna do. We're like like, we're only gonna do 6 miles of work no matter what because the risk the additional risk, and and and the potential benefit we can get from it just isn't worth it by going to 7, 8, 9 miles. One thing that I've noticed, Jerry, to you, which is fascinating, and I've definitely learned a lot from this myself, is on days when athletes are having those rare moments where, like, those those magical sessions, he will very quickly pick up on that and be, like, we are gonna maximize this opportunity while we're here. And so there were a few workouts last year where he would add an additional set, he would add an additional rep where he was just like, woah.

Alex Ostberg [00:28:05]: Like, that is crazy what they're just about to do. And because I think he recognizes, you know, the the last 10% of the workout is probably where you get a disproportionate amount of the gains. It's a point where your body physiologically is the most depleted. It's where, like, cellular signaling and protein signaling and protein expression is gonna be where you're gonna get the most out of that because you're going to insult the body more than you ever have before. And what it will do is it will it will that stimulus will then give you a response that is proportionately greater than something that would be than an insult that would not be as as as big. So I I've just noticed that, like, he he will take those sessions and he's like, we are gonna squeeze as much potential out of the good days as we possibly can. And so he kinda gets rid of that upper bound and allows himself to coach more creatively in those moments where things are going well. And then the last thing to you is I I firmly believe that you need to win most of the workouts that you start, but I've actually noticed that in Jerry's system, like, you need to have a certain amount of tolerance for recognizing that sometimes you might not get through the whole thing because they're just that hard.

Alex Ostberg [00:29:10]: And there's a time and a place where you're gonna let people go, that you're gonna let people fail, and there's certain times where you just need to cut them off, because elite athletes will run through a brick wall if you tell them to. But, the idea that, like, Jerry will write a workout and, like, he's fairly certain that most of the people can finish it, but, like, there's a good chance that for the hardest sessions, like, there might only be 2 or 3 people left standing at the end. And and that's an extreme approach. Like, don't get me wrong. Again, this is not how I would coach an amateur athlete. But, again, if you're trying to win medals and and the margins are so thin, like, these are the kind of these are the kinds of considerations that you have to make.

Cory Nagler [00:29:48]: Yeah. And it and it sounds like it really is to the extreme. These athletes are pushing their bodies. But part of it almost comes across as more is more, but I get the impression there's a little more nuance there. So what is that nuance that separates just putting in volume or intensity for intensity's sake versus getting every last drop out of your performance?

Alex Ostberg [00:30:08]: Right. It's it's an excellent question, and and certainly something that keeps me up at night occasionally. I think if you think about, like, a normal distribution, our the athletes that we work with here are so far on the tail the right tail end of that curve. And what they've been taught their entire life, they they've kind of they have this, like, puritanical work ethic that is so deeply ingrained in their bodies and their minds that, like, again, hard work has been the solution to every problem. They get to college, they outwork everybody. They get to the pro level, they're gonna try and outwork everybody. So so but when you actually sample all the people that are in the far right end of that distribution, you start to ask yourself, okay. How do you differentiate yourself when everybody works hard? When you're towing the line at the Olympic trials, everybody in that situation knows how to work hard.

Alex Ostberg [00:30:54]: They were all phenoms in high school. They were all NCAA champions. And so I think ultimately at that point in time, the advantage becomes knowing when to push and when to back off. And I actually think that is not a decision an athlete is able to make, rationally. And I think that's where the coaching is extremely important. Because like I said, an athlete is never going to give themselves permission to stop. Like, that's where the coach needs to be very attuned to what's going on. They need to keep their finger on the pulse, and they need to they need to say, hey.

Alex Ostberg [00:31:26]: This person or that person, like, we're gonna push them a little harder today. That person, they're looking vulnerable, like, we're gonna cut them off before they get to that point. So I think that's less about less of an athlete decision and more of a coach decision.

Cory Nagler [00:31:38]: Okay. Alright. So it is that something where you really just have to read the athlete and see them? Or is there some type of working relationship in order to understand when that athlete is on that line where you need to reel them back?

Alex Ostberg [00:31:52]: Yeah. So, obviously, right now, we're talking about in person coaching. Right? And I know my work with Ernest Connect got a little bit more challenging because you're you you know, you'd be writing workouts remotely. And there's there's inherently a little bit of a limitation there. I I think it's pretty remarkable how much you can learn from body language, how much you can learn from how people are talking to you, how much you can learn by just seeing how people are moving across the track or the road. And I think one of the things that I've been trying to develop as a coach is really that trained eye for picking up small vulnerabilities when they're starting to show up and understanding, hey. This thing is starting to go downhill, like, let's cut it short or, like, hey. This person's looking particularly bouncy today.

Alex Ostberg [00:32:34]: Like, they're hitting these patients with ease. Like, this is where we need to go. So yeah. I I think it's, it's a skill that I'm certainly actively trying to develop as a coach.

Cory Nagler [00:32:44]: Yeah. And I'm sure not one that's easy.

Alex Ostberg [00:32:46]: No. Definitely not. Definitely not.

Cory Nagler [00:32:49]: Yeah. So we've talked a lot about just how much training can differ for these elite athletes who are just performing on, to be honest, just a completely different level. Like, it's unfathomable to most of us that it can perform at the levels they do, but I'm sure there's some overlap between coaching philosophies or what type of training is gonna help. I don't wanna call it the everyday runner, because we probably have a lot of people listening who are performing at a really high level and putting in a lot of work. We're just not running sub 13 minute 5 k. So for people listening, what are some of those common principles or universal principles that you think bring out the best in your running?

Alex Ostberg [00:33:26]: Yeah. That that's a great point. I I was thinking about this, as you were saying it there, we could probably do an entire podcast on, like, training theory 101. Like, you have only so many dials that realistically you can turn in a training program. The the and the major ones are you've got your volume, you've got your intensity, you've got the density of your workouts within a week. So really the frequency of how often you're running. And then, of course, there's, like, the intensity distribution. Like, how how what days are you gonna go hard? How hard are you gonna go? Like, the the magnitude of that intensity.

Alex Ostberg [00:33:58]: And so I think there's some generally accepted principles for those things. And if you've listened to this podcast or you're, an avid follower of the Rudder's Connect content, like, I don't need to rehash all of that right now. I think what I'll what I can talk about is, like, what are some of the things again that I've learned right now that are more universally applicable principles from having worked in the Bowerman environment? And we already hit on one of them, and I'll just kinda circle back because I think it's that important. And it is, I think, trusting the work, like, trusting the preparation that you've done. Like, it's not a lot of times we over index on one specific session, 1 marathon prep workout, 1 5 k workout, and we think that, like, that is either gonna be our ticket to success or that's gonna be, like, the thing that destines us for failure. And I I actually think that, like, the the workouts really matter, the specificity really matters, but the accumulation of your work is really what carries most of the weight and you can't get attached to any one session. There's a a great quote from Michael Jordan that I heard. Maybe it was about Michael Jordan.

Alex Ostberg [00:35:04]: Either way, it's a good quote. He said, when the moment of truth arrives, you are the sum total of all the work you've put in. Nothing more, nothing less. If you're confident that you've done everything possible possible to prepare yourself, then there is nothing to fear. And I think that's that's some certainly a message that, like, we try to instill on all the athletes here, and they work so unbelievably hard, and they they suffer so much in training that some of them sometimes say that the races are easier than that. Because, like, the races a lot of times will have they'll have a slow build up and then a kick for 400 meters. So all of a sudden you've consolidated that suffering into just, like, 60 seconds at the end. Whereas in these races, I mean, we are laboring.

Alex Ostberg [00:35:40]: We are pushing so hard. So, anyway, takeaway here is is is trust the work. Related to that, I think one area that I've grown a lot when I thought about training theory and coaching, and that definitely applies to athletes, is again, we think a lot about the x's and o's of a workout on any given day, but we don't focus as much about how is the athlete actually absorbing that stimulus. And and and in addition to that, how are we layering each workout on top of each other so that the workout that you do this week is it pairs very nicely with the progression that we're going for next week or when we intentionally back off a little bit for a desired effect. And so I think these ideas of absorption and layering are things I didn't think about as much because I would spend so much time, isolated in the boundaries of, like, this is when the session starts, this is when the session ends, but there's a lot more that happens both before and after. I mean, a lot of questions that I'm asking myself these days is, like, is the athlete's body receptive to the workout we're giving them? You know? Like, how many days will it take for us to repay their recovery cost of what we're about to do? Is today a day where we wanna stack a huge brick on the wall, or are we just gonna add a thin layer? And then I think from the layering standpoint, how all these workouts, how they necessarily how they fit together. It's like, what what is really the sequence of each stimulus that will give you the best adaptation? Right? Like, how can you incrementally progress each session so that you're not necessarily repeating everything from week to week, but you're keeping similar themes with variations on it to then ensure that you can get a little bit further and a little bit further and a little bit further every week. So that's that.

Alex Ostberg [00:37:18]: I think another thing that just has to be mentioned in this environment is the ability to skill fill skillfully maneuver around setbacks and challenges. I think this is ultimately what differentiates good coach good coaches and great coaches and good athletes and great athletes. The reality is you can create a perfect periodization scheme on an Excel sheet, like, in a before you start day 1 of the training cycle. But that is not what is gonna define you. What defines a season is every subsequent decision you make after the fact when things aren't going according to plan. The planning is a one time action and it really counts for just that. It's something that that you wrote on the page but, like, it ain't really gonna matter in 3 weeks time if you got the flu or, like, your shit is bothering you. Like, the decision you make in that moment is so much more consequential.

Alex Ostberg [00:38:04]: And I think, unfortunately, a lot of athletes that are especially planning oriented people forget that the map is not the territory and or or reality. And you have to remember that when the map and reality don't match, reality always rules. And there's this great, like, military expression from back in the day, which is that no plan has ever survived first contact with the enemy. Basically, like, you can plan all you want, but, like, you're gonna probably have to discard, like, at least 20 to 30% of it when things come up. And and so those decisions I think are extremely important. We can probably do an entire podcast on how you make those decisions and what information you have to take into consideration. One last thing because I know I'm getting kind of long winded here. But I think one one thing I've learned at the pro level, which you can certainly apply, to to to the, to the, to the, amateur athlete or the even the amateur elite is creating good situations or or putting yourself in good situations will create your own luck.

Alex Ostberg [00:39:01]: I think one thing that Jerry has done well over the years, and I think he's been either fairly probably unfairly criticized for this, is that he's very selective with where he raises people. You can think back to this happened a lot during pre COVID, like, 2019, 2018, even into 2020. Jerry had, like, you know, there there were the the roster was a little bit bigger back then, and he wanted to try to, you know, kind of engineer these environments to really get the most out of people. And there's a certain element that's lost, which is the competitive spirit, which is required in an Olympic final or required in the US championship, and that's true. And I I think we need to remember that that is the essence of the sport. It is competition. It's responding to the unknown of your competitors. However, the sport has gotten so unbelievably competitive that the price of admission to US to a US final or an Olympic final is that you have to run 1255 beforehand.

Alex Ostberg [00:39:56]: And, one thing that I think Jerry has done a good job of is he he he tees up these race environments, and he he kind of optimizes them so that, you know, you only have so many matches to burn in these environments. And, like, if you're gonna if you're going to go in and try to make the most of an experience, you might as well do whatever you can to make it a good one. And so what he'll do a lot of times is take his own pacers, people that he trusts, he knows he knows how he can try to script it, and I'll have them go 3 k. And then, of course, all bets are off if you're running a 5. You need to run 2 k on your own. You need to press into that unknown territory, uncharted territory. But, like, that's a situation where you create your own luck. Like and and, again, maybe it's a little less applicable to the person who's trying to improve their 5 k PB from 23 to 22:30, minutes, like because you have a little bit more margin for error.

Alex Ostberg [00:40:43]: But when you're trying to go from 13:05 to 12:59, like, you don't have margin for error. Like, you you need to do as much as you can to get the most out of that experience. So, yeah, I think how you position yourself on race day and the environment that you're in definitely matters.

Cory Nagler [00:40:57]: Yeah. And I like the term you use, sort of manufactured environment, because I think so much of this lifestyle, these elite athletes, is essentially manufactured to just set them up to run fast. And it it makes me think of a discussion we had on another podcast, and this was one I had pretty recently joined RC. But we were talking about small changes you can make in your training that have a big impact on performance. And I remember we were talking about double threshold, because this is still when that was kind of a hot topic. And, essentially, your response was, you know, who does double thresholds? Jacob Ingebrigtsen, because he's paid to do nothing but run fast and has all the time in the world to do it. So I think a little bit of that maybe applies here with the elites.

Alex Ostberg [00:41:35]: No. Absolutely. I mean, you you bring up an interesting point that I I definitely spent a lot of time thinking about, over these past couple year past year especially. As much, you know, as much as I I what I would love to do is, you know, wrap everybody in bubble wrap, And I would love to say, like, do nothing but spend every ounce of your energy on just performance alone. But also, like, these athletes are human beings in the world. Like, they need social connection. Like, they need to go, like, go home over the holidays even if the running conditions are terrible. And I think one of the challenges of working with lead athletes at this level is what sacrifices are you willing to make? What are acceptable risks that you're willing to take? And I mean, these athletes for the most part live very reclusive lifestyles that are kind of monk like in their existence.

Alex Ostberg [00:42:22]: Jacob Ingerbitten is no different, of course. But, like, how do you necessarily, how do you necessarily kind of match that with the fact that you need to be a a functioning human being in the real world? Like, that's that's certainly a challenge. And and something that obviously most people don't even need to make that consideration because they're gonna put their life before they're running even if they're really serious. And a lot of times when you try to put your running in front of your own life, like, that's where you you face some of these challenges. So yeah. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that because it's the manufactured environment brought that thought into my head.

Cory Nagler [00:42:57]: Yeah. I like that coaching perspective of wishing you could almost put your athletes in bubble wrap. I I think, I'd love to bring up a quote that this one I actually prepared in advance because I I I'd love to get your impressions on your own training after having worked with Garmin athletes. So I dug up a quote when you did an interview with Finn when he was host, talking about some of the training that got you to sub 13 minutes in the 5 k, and just how difficult that training was. And I'll pull it up here. But you said, during this training cycle, I was working a full time job and only had limited hours in the day. I didn't have the luxury of getting massages or napping for 2 hours every afternoon. While there is an endless list of recovery modalities you can try, I think it's better to stick to the evidence based strategies that offer the most bang for your buck, sleep and nutrition.

Cory Nagler [00:43:43]: You can't out train poor sleep and nutrition. So working with these athletes, how much of the focus is still sleep and nutrition versus maybe not needing to focus on that if you can actually bubble wrap yourself and focus on nothing but running?

Alex Ostberg [00:43:58]: Right. Right. Great question. Also, slight clarification. I have not yet broken 13 minutes in the 5 k. I probably never will. I read 13 18. I as much as I would love the audience to think that I did.

Alex Ostberg [00:44:07]: But but, your point your point is well taken.

Cory Nagler [00:44:11]: So it's sub 13:30, we'll say.

Alex Ostberg [00:44:12]: Sub 13:30. That is an accurate statement. So it it's it's a great point. I think sometimes this is an idea that I'm working on right now. There's power to having constraints in your environment Because it is very easy if you think about how the human brain operates. We love adding things that might enhance our performance, but we hate removing things or taking them away. And I think sometimes when you know you have a fixed amount of time to train, you don't start asking the hypo hypothetical questions of what if I did this or what if I did that? You do the training, you check the box, and then you turn that part of your brain off. And I think one of the challenges sometimes with these elite athletes is that because they're so they're they're they're they have this propensity for more hard work and doing more and always thinking that more is better, it's actually trying to teach them to sometimes just, like, flip that switch off, and recognize that, like, hey.

Alex Ostberg [00:45:10]: All you can do is all you can do. And, like, you can go through this endless list of optimization and recovery strategies, but, like, I still think that there's a few key principles that, again, carry most of the weight, and, like, you need to be making sure that you're doing those things well. It's actually funny that you used to say this because even at the highest levels in the sport, like, we recognize these things are important, but there's sometimes there's still a gap between what you know and what you actually do, e even even at this level. And and I was listening to a sports scientist the other day, who was talking about evidence based strategies for preventing bone stress injuries and relative energy deficiency in sport. And the the interviewer had this, like, had this this, this this comment where he was like, I get what you're saying, but, like, that's really obvious. Like, shouldn't shouldn't we all know that? And and her name is, Catherine, doctor Ackerman. She's based out of Boston. She's like, it's true.

Alex Ostberg [00:46:02]: It is obvious, but I've made a career out of explaining the obvious to people. And so sometimes I feel like part of my job still to this day is that is teaching these these found foundational principles over and over again. I think sometimes, like, even the best people need to be reminded that, like, hey. This thing that you're chasing right now doesn't matter nearly as much as just making sure that you can get to bed and, like, leverage the number one performance enhancer known to mankind, which is good sleep. Right? And and so and, like, yeah, we can talk about, like, wearing this orthotic or that orthotic, but, like, at the end of the day, like, or the, you know, this angle with your knee, like, your angle may maybe we're gonna try to move your knee angle when it collapses in by, like, one degree or something like that. But, like, you know what probably matters more? It's just like a well structured training plan that takes into consideration your training load and your lifestyle stressors and all these things. So, I think my comment today still resonates with me, and I would still probably quote that back to myself as the truth.

Cory Nagler [00:47:00]: And do you think that you as an athlete did a pretty good job of following those principles, or do you wish that you had maybe done a better job getting in the the sleep refueling or whatever those sort of main contributing factors are?

Alex Ostberg [00:47:11]: You know, I've actually think I've gotten better as I've had less time, which sounds like a paradox, but, you know, based on what I was just saying, I actually think the constraints are powerful there. I I was just, I did another podcast with, with domination leader on the running effect, like, last week, and we're going over some year end reflections. I won't go I won't tell the whole story because it will take too long. But but one of the realizations that I've had over the past couple years is that my neurotic habits and superstitions didn't help me nearly as much as I thought that they did. So I'm gonna separate neurotic habits from the things that actually matter. The the training matters. Like, the literally, like, the the volume of training, the intensity training matters. The sleep that you get matters.

Alex Ostberg [00:47:51]: The food that you put in your body matters. The things that I'm starting to question a little bit more that are little more on the fringe is, like, what I was doing back in the day is, like, I had, like, an elaborate 45 minute activation routine I would do before every practice in college. Leading up to a race, I would brainstorm for, like, days on end, like, the perfect mantra to tell myself when things got challenging in the race. I would literally carry food with me across the country so that I could have the same bagel with peanut butter and honey, like, so that I wouldn't have anything to upset my stomach on on race day. I and so these things are not inherently wrong. I think they're actually my attempt at then my ability to control the controllables. But the illusion that I was under at the time is that performance was about control and performance was about perfection. And I've forgotten that adaptability matters just as much.

Alex Ostberg [00:48:39]: And so I think people who are superstitious and that that layer more and more rituals and, like, these, like, exhausting habits on top of, like, the work that's already been done, Like, I think all that does really is make you a bit more fragile because you're nest you're putting yourself in a situation where you need these things to unfold or else you're not convinced you're going to fail. And so I I know I just went down a little bit of a rabbit hole, but, I think as I've gotten less time and I'm still training and competing a little bit myself when I feel inspired to, I'm just like, you know what? Like, let me focus on what really matters. Let me focus on the things that actually have a a demonstrated effect size in the science. Let me focus on the things that don't feel like marginal gains, but are just actually, like, the big movers. Like, let me move the big rocks first and then worry about all that other stuff later. Or if I don't have time for it, then I'm just gonna neglect it. So yeah. Hopefully, that was not too tangential.

Cory Nagler [00:49:30]: No. Not at all. Do do you think, Jerry Miles are a little bit to try to unpack some of those things you shouldn't be concerned about as much? And maybe you can explain Jerry Miles to the listeners.

Alex Ostberg [00:49:40]: Oh, man. That is a fantastic question. Yeah. So for those who don't know, there's this this legendary concept of Jerry Miles, which, I think they started as Badger Miles back in the day when Jerry was coaching at Wisconsin and won a couple of national titles. Basically, what he told his athletes is, I don't think there were GPS watches back then, so it also probably made it a little bit easier to try to quantify mileage this way. He said

Cory Nagler [00:50:03]: Classic Timex.

Alex Ostberg [00:50:04]: Right. Exactly. You just take the Timex Ironman and you you you go to town. And so what he did was he said, if you're a male runner on this team, we are going to count all of your mileage at 7 minute pace. So if you if you went out and you ran, 49 minutes, we're gonna count that as exactly 7 miles. And if you ran and and so, like and if you ran actually, you ran 6:30 pace, you, like, did more work necessarily, but, like, your weekly mileage was it was only gonna count it as whatever the closest increment would be to 7. So, like, the men to this to this day on the team, the men and and the women have a slightly different system, but the men run-in increments of 35, 50, 70 minutes because it's all are these these are all rounding numbers that are nice and even with 7. The women really got shortchanged because their pace was 8 minutes.

Alex Ostberg [00:50:50]: And, like, that's like, wow. Like, you're probably running, like, 50 miles a week and, like, you're only getting credit for 50 miles a week. We're probably running, like, 75 or something like that just because the conversion is is kind of off. So I think Jerry would admit that maybe the female conversion is, like, needs to be updated right now because they're they're not running 8 minute they're not running anywhere close to 8 minute pace. But but I think the idea is yeah. Like, it's it's like, what really matters again is, like, not the precision of taking your GPS watch and running in circles until you hit 5.0 miles. It's it's just it's not about that. It's removing the focus from, like, the neurotic details that all the distance runners tend to fall victim to, and it's just like, hey.

Alex Ostberg [00:51:25]: We're gonna do the work. We're gonna run a lot of volume. And, like, there's also an element to this of, like, if you're running a 100 miles a week, you kind of think that you're supposed to get injured the more that you do. And if you're actually only logging even though it's kind of just like a mental it's just like a little bit of a sleight of hand trick, like, you you're even if you're actually, like, if you're logging in the books, like, 85 files, but you actually ran a 100, well, all of a sudden then, like, you don't think you're supposed to get hurt, you know, because you're not you're not running as much technically. Like, technically, you are running as much, but you don't think you're running as much. So, I I I think it very much relates to my point of, like, yeah, knowing what really matters and and prior prioritizing and measuring things that actually really matter.

Cory Nagler [00:52:05]: I think that's a pretty good synopsis of what to focus on. If you're listening to this not of an elite, it just know what's important and focus on that. Fair to say?

Alex Ostberg [00:52:14]: Very much so. Yeah. I think we over complicate training all the time. And I always tell people, especially non elites, is, like, you should focus more on being generally correct rather than precisely wrong. I mean, the the amount of people who have, like, I've talked to and they're like, ah, man, this workout wasn't perfect. Like, I was trying to hit 7:30 pace so I could be on my goal marathon, and, like, I ran 7:35 or 7:38. I'm like, you know, like, it it the the body knows stress. It doesn't know pace.

Alex Ostberg [00:52:40]: It doesn't know miles. Like, you're gonna be fine. Like, you're close enough. Focus on being generally correct.

Cory Nagler [00:52:46]: Nice. Awesome. Well, I'm definitely gonna try to apply that to my own training because I've definitely been guilty of focusing a little on the minutiae. And, I did a bit of a a year end reflection. I think that's one of the things I put for myself is just not being so worried about mileage and some of those little, you know, 1 percenters.

Alex Ostberg [00:53:03]: Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Focus on the things that again, move move the big rocks first.

Cory Nagler [00:53:07]: Definitely. Alright. Alex, while I have you here, I'd love to reminisce a little and maybe ask you some fun questions. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions? Either about your own running or your thoughts on training? Perfect. Yeah.

Alex Ostberg [00:53:20]: Fire away, please.

Cory Nagler [00:53:21]: Alright. So for the first one, I wanna hear about your thoughts on what is the best place to train, Oregon, UNC Chapel Hill, Stanford, or Connecticut?

Alex Ostberg [00:53:33]: Oh, you really hit me with a tough one here. And I have to be careful. I don't wanna I I try not to offend anybody either, because I know people in all of those places. You're probably gonna force me to to give you one answer. I I would say there's pros and cons of each environment. The one thing I love about Oregon right now is that this is one of the only towns in the country that is, like, built around distance running. We have the best track and field facility in the entire world. We have a trail network that's incredible, and we have a lot of resources that are available to us via Nike and and Nike support.

Alex Ostberg [00:54:04]: Stanford has incredible weather. Like, I never in college had to check the forecast. I could just wake up and wear a t shirt 365 days of the year, which is pretty awesome. Connecticut had its limitations. I didn't move there to train. I grew up there, so I I can't really can't really solve that one. That wasn't an active choice that I made. Chapel Hill is pretty good though.

Alex Ostberg [00:54:20]: Chapel Hill is an incredible trail network. The the facilities are nice there. The weather from probably October to May is is probably some of the best you can get in the world. The summer is brutal though. It's so hot and humid. If I were to choose 1 though, Stanford is pretty ideal. I might I might have to go with California. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:54:48]: Alright. Not a bad choice. I I've only been to California once, but I was amazed just how consistent the weather is.

Alex Ostberg [00:54:54]: It's really nice. Really nice. You almost never had to adjust anything. Like, yeah, it's a beautiful spot.

Cory Nagler [00:55:00]: Yeah. This time of year, you're making me just jealous and wanna go somewhere warmer.

Alex Ostberg [00:55:05]: Yeah. I know.

Cory Nagler [00:55:07]: Alright. So next one, would love to know what is the best piece of coaching advice that you've ever received?

Alex Ostberg [00:55:18]: I think the biggest this is something that I got from Mike Smith, the coach at NAU. He he always says, in an athlete coach relationship, the best way to approach it is put the athlete in the driver's seat, and the coach needs to assume the role of the GPS. And so ultimately what that means is the athlete's the one making the decisions. They're the ones running the workouts. They're the ones doing the races. But the coach is there to say, hey. Like, this is where we're charting our path, and this is the best way to get there. And these are the hazards that might be up ahead.

Alex Ostberg [00:55:51]: And so I think the biggest thing is, like, understanding that I think at the end of the day, like, the athlete makes the coach. Like, what I can do, like, with Moe Ahmed, like, I might be able to improve his performance 2, 3%, but Moe Ahmed is Moe Ahmed. I mean, he's a unicorn amongst unicorns. Right? Like, he's just so good at what he does. And so, like, the best thing that I can do for Moe is, like, be there, support him, identify any hazards that might be up ahead, but, like, he stays in the driver's seat. So that's kinda where my mind went, and that's something that I've been thinking about, not only in this coaching role, but I heard that probably 3, 4 years ago, and it still resonates today.

Cory Nagler [00:56:21]: Good advice.

Alex Ostberg [00:56:23]: Thank you.

Cory Nagler [00:56:24]: Alright. So I'm not sure if you heard this particular podcast, but I did an interview earlier this year with, author, runner, and philosopher Sabrina Little. And one of the focal points of that podcast was talking about how having different virtues can actually help your training, and vice versa, how training can actually help you to develop good personal virtues. So would love to know from your perspective, what is the most valuable virtue or what are some of the most valuable virtues when it comes to running and training?

Alex Ostberg [00:56:55]: Oh, I love that question. I'm going to I'm gonna answer this. So much of my running over the years has been defined by me making contributions to a team. It's been the most fun running that I've done over the years. Yes. This is an individual sport, but it's done it's done amongst other people. So even if some of us is is not on a college team, you're not a part of a run club, like, this is a sport that I think you do in the presence of other people and you benefit from that. And I think the biggest thing that I have extrapolated from running into my own life is reliability.

Alex Ostberg [00:57:25]: I think to me, what was what was more important than me for for me to, like, that rather than, like, winning an individual national title, I wanted my teammates to have faith that, like, I would have an extremely small margin of error. Like, I wanted there to be a very small delta between my best day and my worst day. And I think that's so true because you're you're going to encounter unexpected challenges, but having a certain amount of stoicism to take victories and losses, to take challenges and and, to to take to take challenges and environment and, you know, things that are helping you all in stride at the same point in time, and and being able to consistently deliver on what you say you're gonna do. And I guess that's all kind of encompassed by the theme of reliability. To me, that's so important. And and a lot of that what's baked into that definition as well is, like, again, knowing how to control the controllables, knowing how to be prepared when the time comes, and knowing how to hold yourself to extremely high standards so that you don't let yourself quit when things get difficult.

Cory Nagler [00:58:26]: And for these elite athletes, how do you develop reliability when you're not swinging for a single and you're going for that home run every time you tow the line?

Alex Ostberg [00:58:36]: These people this is one of those questions where I'm just like, sometimes I just don't know how they do it. You know? Like, I wish I could give you a scientific answer and I wish I could give you some kind of philosophical answer to that question, but I'm just like, these people are able to will themselves to a place that, like, less than 1% of the population can even fathom. And sometimes I show up and I walk away from practice and I'm just like, how did they do that? Like, I I don't I don't understand. So I'm at a loss kind of sometimes, like, I think these are just like these are people who are so elite, they're so good at what they do. They are just able to will themselves across that line with so much willpower and mental fortitude that I I can't even put words to it. So I hope that's not unsatisfying, but that's kinda where my that's kinda what I think.

Cory Nagler [00:59:21]: No. And I think you're right. And I don't even think it's the 1%. It's like the 1 person to 1%. Because if you're running a a sub 3 hour marathon, you're you're probably in that top 1% of all people, and yet most of us could not fathom getting anywhere near what these athletes are doing.

Alex Ostberg [00:59:35]: That's right. That's right. Yeah. I mean, you start to see this too even at the Olympic level. And especially on the women's side, I remember, Beatrice Chabot and and, you know, some of, you know, Carissa Schweitzer was on our team. Elise Cranny is another American who was on Bowerman, previously. And, like, I mean, gosh, like, we think that when you make the Olympics, you're really good. And then watching some of these East African women run the last 800 meters of a 5,000 in 2 flat or, like, 201, you're just like, wow.

Alex Ostberg [01:00:05]: Like, sometimes the margins between, like, you know, the 10th best in the world and the best in the world, like, that's not a thin margin. Sometimes that feels like an insurmountable gap. And so and it's not. Like, I think someone like Carissa is is knocking on the door of being able to do that. But sometimes you're just like, wow. Like, even at that level, there's there's some big differentials.

Cory Nagler [01:00:30]: Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty cool. Makes the sport fun to watch.

Alex Ostberg [01:00:33]: Exactly. Exactly.

Cory Nagler [01:00:35]: Alright. Last one for you, Alex. But which is more fun, running or coaching?

Alex Ostberg [01:00:43]: They're fun for different reasons. I think in in my own life, I I derived a lot of satisfaction out of setting a goal and going out and accomplishing it. And and kind of the the personal, like, the validation that I felt, the the self efficacy that came from that, I was like, I I put something really ambitious out on the table and I went I went out and I did it. That to me, I think has defined who I am as a person and it defines my character. And I don't know if anything can really remotely come close to that because that's, you know, that's what has now makes up the inner workings of my mind and how I operate. So that I think has been really transformative, just that that part of the running, and that has made it also really fun and addicting. However, there's something about helping somebody else reach their goals and using this, like, weird amalgamation of all this knowledge that I've accumulated over the years through I mean, I didn't realize, like, 5 years ago that most college athletes didn't re you know, I thought that all college athletes would read research papers for fun and, like, think about how they can apply that to their own performance. Took me a little while to realize, like, that is not the case at all.

Alex Ostberg [01:01:51]: So, like, this weird quirky thing that I find so enjoyable and I find so fascinating and I'm willing to, like, go on these, like, go down these rabbit holes to chase, you know, these these crazy ideas about performance. And then being able to take that and apply it to some of the best athletes in the world. I mean, I I feel like I'm the luckiest person ever to get to do that. Right? Like, I was offered I was offered an opportunity at at age 26 that, like, that few people can even dream of. And so I don't take that for granted at all. I think it's probably the best first real coaching job that anyone's ever got. It was unprecedented at the time, and I try to take that for I I try to be thankful for that and grateful for that every day. So it's real it's really fun.

Alex Ostberg [01:02:30]: So I guess if that sums up the differences between them. Right now, I think my own best competitive days are probably behind me, and I say that from a perspective of I've I've come to peace with it. Like, I I I had that chapter of my life where I was chasing performance at the exclusion of everything else, and I I've come to terms with the fact that, like, those my my fastest time in the 5 k or 10 k might be behind me, and that's okay. And I think right now, I I'm getting excited for the next challenge, which is helping people realize their potential and trying to explore what humans are capable of, and that's really fun.

Cory Nagler [01:03:02]: Dude, that's awesome. I'm so happy for you. And as a way to wrap up, you talked about working towards challenges and helping others. We're no longer in an Olympic year. So what challenges are you working towards?

Alex Ostberg [01:03:12]: Well, I mean, the grind never stops. We have the Tokyo World Championships at the end in September this year. So I think a lot of this is, like, being able to zoom in and zoom out between these macro goals and these micro goals. I think when you're making plans, you have to think big. But when you're making progress, you have to think small. And so right now, like, we're just focused on, can we execute the next workout to the best of our ability? Can we come up with the best possible plan around altitude training and the periodization of how we're gonna move from one race to the next so that we can optimize everybody's chances to do really well at the US or Canadian championships, later this year. So it never stops. There's there's always another challenge to tackle, and I think, that's what makes us fun.

Alex Ostberg [01:03:54]: Right? Like, there's always another problem to solve. And a life that has no problems in it means that you're probably not engaging with it properly or you're not you're not necessarily confronting those challenges. So I enjoy that part of it, and I and I certainly wouldn't wish for a life that didn't come with those challenges.

Cory Nagler [01:04:07]: Super cool. Well, I'm excited for you and also just to see all the performances with the Bowerman track club and just Canadian and American track athletes in general. So, Alex, thanks for joining me for another podcast.

Alex Ostberg [01:04:18]: It's been a pleasure, Corey. Thanks for having me on.

Cory Nagler [01:04:34]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at corey_nagler. Worth your strap up by searching Corey Nagler. And please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast. Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, then consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netforward/podcast. I'll see you on the next show, but until then, happy running, everyone.