Don’t Screw up the Easy Stuff: Recovery Runs, Strength Training, Nutrition and More

Jeff Gaudette [00:00:00]: I I I love all the sports. And it's really funny when you see the athletes come trying to come back from an injury, especially with, like, hockey and football where it's like, they're like, well, you know, he, broke his ankle, and he's gonna try to come back this week. You know? And you're like, why don't you just just take a week off? Like, big deal. You missed the game. It's, you know, whatever. And then my dad goes, yeah. But you're the guy that, like, you know, rolled your ankle and then took 10 ibuprofen to try to run the next day. You know? And I'm like, yeah.

Jeff Gaudette [00:00:27]: But and so, I think all of athletes are wired that way. Like, we just don't wanna stop.

Cory Nagler [00:00:33]: Running is hard. Really hard. It's one of the things I love about the sport too. You have to work hard for every PB and finish medal. So you would think that for us runners, it would be a piece of cake to keep recovery runs easy, and take a day off when our aching bodies need it. But no, I think we've all made these mistakes, and realistically, probably more than once too. This episode is meant as a reminder to not screw up the easy stuff, like recovery runs, eating before your workout, and resisting the urge to go on a 10 mile run when your calf is so tight you think it might burst. Alright.

Cory Nagler [00:01:05]: Maybe the last one is a little specific, but I think you get the idea. Joining me today is the founder of Runners Connect, coach Jeff Gaudette. He knows all the silly mistakes runners make through years of coaching and even by making them himself as an athlete. There's a good chance you might listen to this entire episode and still turn your easy run into a tempo from time to time. I know I've been there. But at least you can put the work in to hear what you should be doing. So let's get to it. Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode.

Cory Nagler [00:01:47]: I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Coach Jeff, welcome back to another episode of Run to the Top.

Jeff Gaudette [00:02:11]: Awesome. Excited to be here, Corey. Thanks for having me.

Cory Nagler [00:02:13]: Absolutely. And, you know, initially, I reached out to you to do a podcast completely on recovery runs because it it it struck me that even as somebody who's been running for so long, it still feels like something that's so easy to screw up. But after chatting back and forth, it sounds like it's probably not the only thing that even veteran athletes can screw up that should be simple in theory.

Jeff Gaudette [00:02:36]: Absa absolutely. I mean, I think sometimes it's the simple things that are easy easiest to screw up because we kinda get ahead of ourselves and focus on, like, all the complicated things, the new the, you know, the new technology or the new training methods. And sometimes the simple stuff kind of, evades us.

Cory Nagler [00:02:52]: Is there anything looking back to when you were competing as an athlete that you would do that, you know, you wish maybe you had done differently?

Jeff Gaudette [00:03:01]: Pretty much everything. No. It's funny. You know, definitely recovery wants to be one of the things. Like, I definitely did those wrong for sure. You know, a lot of there's a lot of stuff about training now that we know now that we just didn't know back then. Strength training being a huge big part of it, biomechanics being another huge part, even a lot of the training methods these days, that have just changed. So, yeah, I would there was a lot that I would do differently for sure.

Cory Nagler [00:03:29]: Yeah. And when you ran your marathon PR, I I think low two twenties, if I'm correct. Was Strava a thing at the time where people worried about what pace they would be uploaded to to social media?

Jeff Gaudette [00:03:40]: Oh, no. Absolutely not. There was no Strava. Garmin had just really come around in a sense that not even from a sharing perspective, just more from a, like, you could actually measure your route perspective. But I think they I think at that time, there were, like, three or four Garmin models, and only, like, the most, like, the most, recent was, like, really accurate at all. All the other ones were, like, pretty inaccurate. Like, if, like, any building or tree got in your way, it would, like, stop tracking you. So, yeah, that that's back far that's pretty far back.

Cory Nagler [00:04:12]: Yeah. But I think it's interesting because to me, like, a lot of people attribute that pressure to run quick to Strava and and potentially worrying what people think, but I think it's a tendency that predates Strava. I think I think it's more, just a runner's tendency to to wanna do everything to the max.

Jeff Gaudette [00:04:28]: Yeah. For sure. I mean, I think I think you think, like, a thing like Strava, makes it a little bit more diff adds outside pressure, like you said. But I think, really, it comes from an internal thing. It it takes a long time for runners to realize that running faster isn't always better. I know for me, it took until well, I was well out of college. So probably running eight after running for eight to ten years before I realized that, like, running faster just isn't always better. And even then, there's still, like you know, when you train with a group, there's still, like, this tendency to push yourself even though you know, like, okay.

Jeff Gaudette [00:05:01]: This pace isn't a recovery pace for me today, but, like, this is what everybody else is doing, so I'm just gonna do it. And so even sometimes when you when you know and you're adhering to it most of the time, you can still fall off the track for sure.

Cory Nagler [00:05:13]: Yeah. I I think those pressures, especially the internal ones, have been around for for quite a while. Beyond the recovery runs, are there any other sort of simple running topics that you think that runners, especially the ones you coach, tend to get wrong a lot?

Jeff Gaudette [00:05:28]: Yeah. So like I said, there's a ton. I mean, what I kinda mentioned these before, but, like, strength training being a huge one in the sense that, you know, back when I was running, it really was just like there was no knowledge that strength training or the the type of strength thing that you could do would be beneficial. So, like, I wouldn't really necessarily call that a mistake from historically. But nowadays, it it's definitely a mistake because if if you're listening to this podcast or you're reading anything about running, then you should pretty much know that there's a strength training is a huge component of being able to stay healthy, be able to run fast, being able to, stay running longer, from a health perspective. And so, you know, we we we make the mistake of of with strength training either doing the same stuff over and over. So if you think about a lot of what people do with strength training, it's you know, they do the same core routine, you know, three times a week. And they'll probably do that throughout the whole training cycle.

Jeff Gaudette [00:06:20]: They won't vary the reps or the sets or the time. They won't add any resistance or any way to make it more difficult. They just kinda do the same thing over over and over. And then after the race, they may stop doing strength training for a couple weeks as they kinda recover. And then they go back to their next race, and they just do the same core routine over and over and over and over again. And so if you think about that from, like, a running perspective, it'd be like if you just did the same workouts over and over and over. And then, like, oh, I'm not really understanding why I'm not getting any stronger. So that's that's a big one with strength training.

Jeff Gaudette [00:06:47]: The other big one is just like I mean, it's kind of a mistake, but in the sense of rationalizing why they don't have time to do it. You know? And I'm somebody that you know, when I was running professionally, obviously, I had all the time in the world. That was my job. I was dedicated to it. But nowadays, I have four kids. You know? I have obviously, I own runners connect. And so, like, I still make time for the strength training. And, basically, what you need to do is start you know, as a as a trick is, like, just start finding little ways to add it in.

Jeff Gaudette [00:07:16]: One, it doesn't need to take long, ten to fifteen minutes. I've talked about this a lot of times on the podcast. And second, it doesn't have to be, like, directly after your run. You can always, find other times throughout the day to do it. So for me, it's always much easier to do in the evening. You know, there's always I can always find a half hour in the evening when you know, like, my kid my youngest likes to take his showers. He's only five years old. So he takes ten minute, fifteen minute showers.

Jeff Gaudette [00:07:40]: So I he likes it. So he's playing with his toys in there. And that's when I'll do my strength work sometimes. And so, you know, you just gotta find little ways to get it in. So, yeah, that's that's a big mistake on the strength training side. The other big one that comes to mind is with when it comes to injuries is trying to run through things. And so we as runners, we start to feel something. And and I totally understand the difficulty of deciding, okay, if what is what I feel like an injury? Is that something I need to treat and take care of? Or is it just the normal, you know, what what I call like a niggle of of training where sometimes things are gonna get sore, etcetera? But that said, once runners realize that something is probably an injury, we're still pretty hesitant to to take any time off, and we continue to try to push through it and push through it.

Jeff Gaudette [00:08:24]: And in my experience, what ends up happening is instead of needing to take one to three days off to kinda let something cool down, you end up pushing it, pushing it, pushing it, and then you end up needing three weeks off because you completely tore something or developed tendonitis or something like that. So that's a huge mistake I see people make is just trying to run through injuries.

Cory Nagler [00:08:45]: Yeah. I love that you called that one out, especially because just this morning, I I headed out for a run intending to do maybe nine, ten miles. And after two miles, just turned back around, figured, no. Something doesn't feel right and cross train, and definitely not something something that I would have done maybe even a couple years ago, before I've had to deal with a few, IT band and plantar fasciitis injuries.

Jeff Gaudette [00:09:04]: Yeah. It takes a few times getting kicked in the butt and realizing, like, you know, every time I try to run through this, I end up on the shelf for three weeks. And then one time you, you know, like you said, this you you have a great example of, like, turnaround, do some cross training for a couple days, let it rest, let it relax, and then realize, oh, wow. I was able to get over that molehill a lot quicker, and I didn't have to take two to three weeks off.

Cory Nagler [00:09:28]: Yeah. The the other thing I found kind of a paradox is, what you said about strength training. I think it's totally true. You wouldn't wanna do the same workout over and over again. But when you look at it from a mileage perspective, you can see why runners might take that approach. Because if you just gradually build more and more easy miles going at the exact same pace, you're probably still gonna get more efficient up to a certain point. Whereas, you know, as you said, it it probably doesn't work exactly the same way with strength training.

Jeff Gaudette [00:09:53]: Yes and no. And, you know, you you think about the thing with strength training. So yeah. Yes. And, actually, I would say yes. Because if you look at running, there's generally three variables that we control. Right? So there's volume, distance, and then there's, intensity, which is pace. And then there's, like, accumulated volume.

Jeff Gaudette [00:10:10]: So, like, total throughout the week, etcetera, that kind of thing. With strength training, it's kind of the same thing. So you have your intensity is is really correlates to, like, when you overload, when you add resistance, something like that. So that kind of translates to intensity. And then you have reps and sets, which are kind of anticipate correlate to volume. So it's really the same thing. You you kinda manipulate both of those. And, like, when you think about running training, like, you're always either pushing one of them, whether it be volume or pace, intensity, that kind of thing.

Jeff Gaudette [00:10:39]: So, yeah, they're actually pretty similar.

Cory Nagler [00:10:41]: Interesting. Okay. Yeah. No. I, I never thought about it in that light, but it it it's true. I think strength training is definitely one a lot of runners, including myself, get wrong.

Jeff Gaudette [00:10:50]: Yeah. And and, yeah, and I don't blame us, you know, in the sense that, like, again, it it it I understand because you wanna focus on the running, and then, you know, we read some you know, we we're so much in love with running. And strength training is kinda like, okay. I do it because I wanna be a better runner. It's not because for a lot of us, it's not because that's what we'd love to do. And so with running, we we read about it. We listen to podcasts. We watch videos.

Jeff Gaudette [00:11:14]: You don't necessarily do that with strength training. And so there's a one of those things, like, a knowledge gap. Like, I totally understand where people fall into that trap of, okay. Yeah. I'm doing my core work. I'm doing my hip strengthening, etcetera, and not realizing that that's the first step. And then the next step is putting together something where it's progressive, that you're actually able to get stronger over

Cory Nagler [00:11:33]: time. Yeah. Very nice. I think the, the one other piece that I really wanted to make sure that we cover today and and hopefully we will get to is nutrition. And, obviously, there's a lot of good science you can do that that's maybe not so simple. But I think at the most basic level, the idea of eat enough, get lots of carbs, even that I find it is challenging as a runner.

Jeff Gaudette [00:11:57]: Mhmm. Yeah. For sure. I always, I'm always hesitant with nutrition because there's a lot of dogma when it comes to, like, what types of diet are, you know, the best. So sometimes you start getting into this topic, and it's like people are like, oh, no. No. No. You can't do that.

Jeff Gaudette [00:12:11]: But for me, I always look at it super simple. Like you said, the the basics are pretty simple. And even that, I think some people will argue with you. Like, when you said, you know, eat lots of carbs, I'm totally of the belief that you need a lot of carbohydrates to fuel yourself as a runner. There's a lot of science that supports that. I think even recently there have been some studies. It's something that I'm working on now for a new article. But, but even that, like, you'll get a lot of pushback from from athletes.

Jeff Gaudette [00:12:36]: And, again, nutrition is just like training in the sense that there's no right there's no exact one right way. You know? And so as long as a lot of the principles are being followed, absolutely. But I do agree that nutrition can be a huge mistake from a fueling perspective and then also recovery perspective. Those are the two big things that I see runners doing incorrectly when it comes to, like, directly related to training.

Cory Nagler [00:12:59]: Definitely. And I think the way I used to think about my fueling during runs is how much fuel do I need to take on to get through the run. And that works to a point, but I think I've kind of retrained myself understanding that if you take in more fuel, you do recover better, that it's not just about getting through it. It's more about optimization and what's gonna be the best for my, my training looking week to week or even month to month.

Jeff Gaudette [00:13:21]: Absolutely. Yeah. It's really a three pronged. It's, you know, it's it's pre workout. It's during the intra workout and then post workout. And to me, you know, my opinion, the two most important are pre workout and post workout. The intra, you know, there's a lot it's pretty pretty easy with the intra workout stuff. You know, you pretty much just need simple carbs.

Jeff Gaudette [00:13:39]: But the pre workout and post workout are things that I think a lot of runners don't do correctly or don't think about, in the right way. Maybe pre workout, not so much, but definitely post workout. You know, your body is literally starving for nutrients when you finish a really hard workout. And especially when you combine the fact that you're doing these workouts and runs, day after day after day. There's not a lot of time. You know, your body is trying to recover as fast as it can. And the easiest way for you to to help your body do that is to give it the nutrients it needs. Carbohydrates, proteins, fats, healthy vitamins, minerals, that kind of stuff.

Cory Nagler [00:14:14]: Yeah. Alright. So as we deep dive into topics more, why don't we start there on the nutrition piece if if we're already talking about it? I've got some notes on the other topics we brought up I wanna make sure we get to.

Jeff Gaudette [00:14:23]: Absolutely.

Cory Nagler [00:14:25]: Cool. So on nutrition, without getting into any specific dogma or diets, because I think those stuff, it's easy to dispute. Just at the highest level, what do you think it is that so many runners, even if they know they should be making certain changes to their diet, don't do it? And I think to me, the most obvious example is just getting enough fuel, but whatever your belief is, what that optimal fuel is.

Jeff Gaudette [00:14:48]: Yeah. I think a lot of it comes down to, like, logistics in the sense that it kinda gets back to that strength training thing when we talk about there's not enough time. You know, running as it is already takes up hours, ninety minutes a day, you know, depending on how much you're doing. But, like, it takes up a good chunk of your day. And then now you're talking about okay. Somebody says now you gotta add strength training in, and you gotta add injury prevention work and all that stuff. And then now there's the mental and preparation burden of getting your nutrition right. And so I think sometimes that can be a hindrance to properly fueling before, during, and after your workout because it's just like there's so men so much mental energy going into the workout itself that sometimes there's just not enough mental energy to think about, okay.

Jeff Gaudette [00:15:29]: I gotta make I gotta wake up and make sure that I have this and this and this before my run. And then during my run, I need x, y, and z. And then after my run, I need to make sure that I have this, that, and the other. And then all the other while you have you know, you get your work calling you all the time. You know? On the you you get home, you get 15 emails that you're like, oh my god. And then the kids are misbehaving, and it's like you know, there's all these things. So it's like sometimes it's can be the last thing that you end up thinking about. To me that, at least from my perspective, that's at least that's my been my experience, as I've gotten older and moved into the, competitive world trying to with a family and job and that kind of stuff of realizing, like, sometimes it's like, oh my god.

Jeff Gaudette [00:16:07]: I can't think I can't Unless I, like, meal plan, like, specifically, sometimes things just get dropped.

Cory Nagler [00:16:13]: Yeah. Totally. I I think you've hit it on the head that having a full time job and having meetings, it it really gets in the way of having my midday nap or mid afternoon snack as much as that would be optimal.

Jeff Gaudette [00:16:22]: Yeah. For sure. You know, sometimes it's like you get home and you're you know, from your work from your run, and you're just like you barely have enough time to shower and get out the door. And, you know, there's definitely things that you can do. There's, like, meal replacement stuff, and you can do shakes and all that kind of stuff. But, again, that gets into the idea of, like, kinda have to be prepared. You have to have that ready to go, and you have to be ready for that. And it's just like another mental hurdle.

Jeff Gaudette [00:16:45]: But it's one of those things that can be a huge difference when it comes to being properly fueled and recovered for your workouts throughout the week and not. You know? So it's definitely something that I noticed myself. A lot of the biggest advances I made in from my fitness or just from progress in general came from when I was focusing I I I was more focused on my nutrition than norm nutrition than normal. Because nutrition plays a huge, huge part in in everything.

Cory Nagler [00:17:11]: Yeah. And, of course, I'm being a little facetious with the midday nap because I know that's not the reality for for most of us. But just in in general terms, what can runners do to to take the stress and anxiety out of those decisions and make it as easy as possible to get good quality nutrition?

Jeff Gaudette [00:17:28]: Yeah. So I think to me, the biggest thing is planning. If you think well, I think for me, it's two things. It's planning and then having, like, not necessarily needing a lot of variety. And so maybe that's a personal thing, and it's not something I always love, I have to admit. But for me, the and this goes back to planning in a sense that if you don't need a lot of variety, you can pretty much plan to get the same stuff all the time. So, like, I know when I go to the store, like, what I need for post workout, pre workout, during workouts, etcetera. And I know if I can you know, if I make a shake, I know exactly what I need to put in it.

Jeff Gaudette [00:18:00]: And I I have the stuff at home. I can do it. Sometimes I can do it ahead of time. So that's a lot of it for me is just being able to plan and then not necessarily needing, like, all this variety because that sometimes interrupts the planning. So for me, if I'm able to plan, it goes it's a lot smoother, and it's a lot more consistent with being nailed on dialogue with nutrition.

Cory Nagler [00:18:20]: Yeah. And I think that's why a lot of runners tend to be type a. I think it really lends itself to that type of person who's okay with that type of repetitiveness because it is much easier if you're okay with routine.

Jeff Gaudette [00:18:31]: Mhmm. Yeah. For sure. And I think I think my advice to people is always to focus on one thing at a time. So I think a lot of times when we especially when it comes to nutrition, when we try to make changes, we try to change everything at once. So, like, we look at ourselves and we say, okay. I'm not eating healthy. And that can mean a lot of different things for different people.

Jeff Gaudette [00:18:48]: But, like, then we all of a sudden just try to change everything about our diet. Right? And so we're like, okay. Now I need to eat all this exotic salmon and, you know, kind of go into these just trying to change everything, really. And what I find is that if you just focus on one or two things at a time so with running, you know, if we're talking about this just purely from a performance perspective, it gets back to that pre run and post run. Those are the two most important things. And so first, if you're focused on those two things. Okay. What do I need to do to make sure that I'm fueling myself properly before my runs? And then what do I need to do to make sure that I'm fueling myself properly post runs? And just focus on those two things.

Jeff Gaudette [00:19:26]: Don't necessarily worry about, like, what your diet is, the rest of the day, etcetera. Not that that's not important. But focus on those couple things. Get it down. Figure out what you like. Figure out what works for you. Figure what's easy for you. And then once you get in once you develop that routine and it becomes, like, just every day a part of you every day, like, you're not really thinking about it, then you can move on to the next thing.

Jeff Gaudette [00:19:46]: And so whatever that next thing is for you, you know, if it's cutting down desserts, if it's eating more nutritious meals at lunch because you're at work and you're just always eating crap, you know, whatever it is, like, take that, then that's the next step. Right? And so you do focus on that until that becomes part of just your everyday, like, the norm. And then you can take the next step. So don't try to do it all at once. Focus on one thing at a time. Start pre workout, post workout, and then move on from there.

Cory Nagler [00:20:12]: I like it. Plain and simple. Figure out what works, change one thing at a time.

Jeff Gaudette [00:20:16]: Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely. That that's what's always worked for me when I've wanted to change. Even, like, I'll follow you know, there's definitely times where I'm less consistent with my nutrition training, etcetera. And for me to get back on track, that's what I do. I just focus on one thing at a time. And it's it comes back quicker, you know, in the sense that it's not my first time doing it.

Jeff Gaudette [00:20:32]: So sometimes it'll only take a week or two to get into a good rhythm, and then I'm able to kinda keep adding on from that. But don't feel like it's, has to be on all the time. Sometimes you fall off and just get back on the track.

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Cory Nagler [00:23:37]: I think, that's a good surface level response for how to get a little bit better at nutrition at least. One other one I'm excited to get into is the idea of running through injuries. Talk about screwing up easy things. If it if it hurts to walk, you probably should not be running, and yet so many of us do it and even post about it on Strava. Why do you think that is?

Jeff Gaudette [00:23:56]: Yeah. I mean, I think there's definitely, it's a it's a real mental difficulty. There's a I would say that it's almost like a mental health issue. And and I don't want it I don't say that in a sense to make mental health, seem less important than it is or but I know personally that, like, I get depressed if it's I would say not so much now because it's I'm not necessarily competing. But, when I was competing, I would be depressed if I couldn't run, like, literally depressed. And I would say that a a majority of runners feel that way. Like, even if it's just for the day, I it would just nag at me all day. Like, oh, I wasn't able to run today, etcetera, etcetera.

Jeff Gaudette [00:24:34]: And it's one of those things where even when you tell yourself, okay. Not running today is not the end of the world. It's a small drop in the bucket of, like, their overall fitness, etcetera. There's still a mental a mental state to it that I think we try to avoid at all costs. And that's why even though we know to to not push through an injury, even though we know that it might it's probably not gonna get better by running through it, like, we continue to push it because we just can't accept the struggle that we're gonna go through if we don't run. Even though it ends up in the long run leading to a longer layoff and and probably more mental struggle, I think that's the biggest thing is that it's just difficult to get your head around mentally.

Cory Nagler [00:25:13]: This podcast just got really deep. We started with the basic talk about making nutrition easy, and all of a sudden, it's about really understanding yourself.

Jeff Gaudette [00:25:20]: Yeah. For sure. I mean, that's that's what I've noticed with myself and, you know, with elite or, you know, athletes that wanna perform well. I always joke it's funny. I was just joking about this with my father the other day. I watch NFL football, baseball, you know, hockey. I I I love all the sports. And it's really funny when you see the athletes come trying to come back from an injury, especially with, like, hockey and football where it's like they're like, well, you know, he, broke his ankle and he's gonna try to come back this week.

Jeff Gaudette [00:25:46]: You know? And you're like, why don't you just just take a week off? Like, big deal. You missed the game. It's, you know, whatever. And then my dad goes, yeah. But you were the guy that, like, you know, rolled your ankle and then took 10 ibuprofen to try to run the next day. You know? And I'm like, yeah. But and so I think all of athletes are wired that way. Like, we just don't wanna stop.

Jeff Gaudette [00:26:04]: And so from the outside, from a coaching perspective, it's really easy to tell an athlete, hey. Don't run today. It's better to take the day off, etcetera, etcetera. But from the inside, the athlete is always always gonna be wanting to push it for sure.

Cory Nagler [00:26:17]: Do you think part of it is those athletes and other sports influence us? I think one one example that stands out to me is a is a Boston Bruins fan, and I and I know you are too, so you're probably familiar. But when they won the cup, Patrice Bergeron was playing with a punctured lung. And and to me, that was just the most awesome thing, but it doesn't really carry over as a runner. You you probably should not be running with a punctured lung. So do do you think there's any influence there?

Jeff Gaudette [00:26:39]: I wouldn't say I don't think well, maybe it is. Maybe for some people, it is. Like, they they emulate, elite athletes when they're from any sport. Maybe that's part of it. But I think it's more of a an internal thing. You know, I think athletes that especially endurance athletes, are that's just how we're wired. Like, you know, we're we're drawn to the sport because that's part of how our mind works in general. So I think it's one of those things that a lot of I would say a lot of runners have or that that drive whether they watch other sports or not.

Cory Nagler [00:27:08]: Yep. And this one sounds so simple. I almost feel silly asking this question. But what should you do to help yourself not run through injury?

Jeff Gaudette [00:27:17]: Well, the simple answer is to get a coach. And, you know, obviously, we offer coaching at Runner's Connect, and this isn't meant to be, promotional. But the really, the biggest thing is to have a, somebody outside of your yourself that can tell that can remind you about the the actual science to remind you that taking one day off isn't gonna kill you. All those little things, like, to have that third person perspective is super, super helpful. Especially if it's somebody that you trust, it can be very, very helpful to have that person to lean on. And it get this gets back to that mental side too. Like so first of all, you can have somebody that tells you, hey. This isn't the best idea to run today.

Jeff Gaudette [00:27:56]: It can kinda help you make that decision because there are times where it's pretty obvious that you shouldn't be running. Like, you know, know, there are times where you're just like, yeah. I just can't physically do it. Right? And so that's a little bit easier to take those days off. But there are times where it's a difficult decision where you're just like, yeah. The pain was like a four out of five out of 10. Right? And it kinda stayed the same throughout the run. Like, that's a really difficult decision of, like, okay.

Jeff Gaudette [00:28:19]: Should I run tomorrow or not? You know? So that's where having that outside perspective and that and that third party can make a big difference. And being able to really look at it and say, yeah. This is where you're at in your training cycle. This is, you know, this is what I think, etcetera, etcetera, and give you a better get you outside of your own head. So that's one thing. And then the next thing too is just like I talked about the mental side of things. It can be you know, if I didn't run for a day, I would think about it all day. And it can be really helpful if you have a coach or even if it's a spouse or a training partner that can just talk to you know, just every couple every time you're feeling that way, you can you can say, hey.

Jeff Gaudette [00:28:56]: Man, I'm really feeling bad that I didn't run today. And they can give you that, like, hey. Look. You did 55 miles last week. Like, you're you're totally gonna be okay. Like, you did you've done all the work. Like, you're gonna be totally totally okay. And sometimes that can just be that reassuring, voice that can help get you through that mental part of the being needing to take time off.

Cory Nagler [00:29:15]: Yeah. And I think one thing I might personally add is not just having a coach, but building a really good relationship with your coach. To use an example with myself, I think when I was in high school, I got a stress fracture in my foot. And if a coach had asked me at the time, what's your pain level, I probably would have said, you know, four, five out of 10. It stings a little. And it's not even that I'd be lying to the coach. It's that I was probably lying to myself. So I think having a coach who knows you and who knows how to interpret your answers will allow you to have much better response.

Jeff Gaudette [00:29:43]: Yeah. For sure. And, you know, I'm talking about you know, I'm I'm bringing my own personal experience into this. So, like, I know as a coach and also as an athlete, but, like, everybody's different. And so, like, I've always been somebody that was gonna push the limit and, you know, push push push. But I've worked with a lot of athletes and I've worked I've had a lot of teammates that didn't necessarily not that they didn't have the drive. I don't wanna say it that way. But, like, they weren't quite as obsessive as me as me.

Jeff Gaudette [00:30:07]: And and I say that as a as a positive to them and as a negative to me. And that my, obsessiveness really was the cause of a lot of the struggles that I went through as a from training and the reason some of the reasons that I didn't necessarily perform probably to as well as I could have.

Cory Nagler [00:30:25]: Yeah. Yeah. And I'll move on to what I think is probably just as much a detriment rather to my training, which is the strength running piece you mentioned. That that this is really something that's hard for me. Because I think as much as I've gotten into a routine, it's it's really something that I don't enjoy doing the way I enjoy running. And I think that's relatable to a lot of runners. As you said, we just love to run.

Jeff Gaudette [00:30:49]: Mhmm. For sure. So the thing I would say to that is try to find ways to make it enjoyable because it's not always it is tough to mentally fight that every day or every week to be like, oh, man. I can do my strength training this week, etcetera, etcetera. Like, ideally, you want it to be something that is is at least somewhat enjoyable. And so it could be there's a lot of different ways you can do things, but it could be one in the sense of, like, it could be your location. So, like, maybe it's it could be going to the gym helps. It could be going staying at home helps.

Jeff Gaudette [00:31:19]: It could be having a, dedicating a spot at home that helps. There's other things that could be the re like, the types of routines. So, like, yeah, generally, we wanna focus on specific areas, but it's not like you have to do x, y, and z exercises. Like, there's a lot of different ways you can attack things. So it could be just the variety of exercises you try. It could be, like, even something as, like, gamifying your exercise. And so I noticed this with a lot of people that, like, try to get into running that have never run before. Like, they need to gamify it.

Jeff Gaudette [00:31:47]: And that's where, like, Strava and, stuff like that has been hugely helpful because they see the miles adding up, etcetera. So it could be, like, finding an app that allows you to gamify your strength training, earn points, or, you know, just keeps track, that kind of thing. And if that's something that typically motivates you, that could be something like that. It could be music or podcast in the sense of, like, giving yourself playlist music or podcast that that you wanna listen to. So, like, your gym time is now the time that you get to enjoy podcast, YouTube videos, music, etcetera, that you might not normally get to. And so you change this and that, like, oh, I gotta do my strength training to, like, oh, this is the time that I get to listen to my podcast. So those are some just some of the things that I've, personally, like, seen athletes do that have helped a lot.

Cory Nagler [00:32:34]: Yeah. I like that idea of gamification in part because I think Strava has done that really successfully with running. You go out for a run, and suddenly you have this pretty chart. You have your pace. You can see your heart rate and all kinds of other metrics, especially if you're a premium member. It's just it's not as sexy to go post, hey. This is when I one hour workout, and that's all that shows up. And I

Jeff Gaudette [00:32:54]: I think

Cory Nagler [00:32:54]: it's a small way that yeah. Go ahead.

Jeff Gaudette [00:32:57]: Yeah. No. So there are a lot of apps that are specific to strength training that do a lot of in a in a way similar to Strava in the sense that, like, they'll track your reps. They'll track the weight that you used or the resistance that you use, etcetera. And so that could be a way. So, like, if that's what it is. So, like, it's a little bit different than Strava, but it's kinda similar in the sense that, like, you're just changing you're changing your miles and your pace to reps and resistance. And so that can be and it can they they can give you graphs and they can chart it and say, hey.

Jeff Gaudette [00:33:26]: Last week, you were able to do seven reps with 55 pounds, something like that, or with the orange 55 pound band or something like that. And then this week, you were able to do eight reps. You know? Like, that can like, tracking like that can be a a really good way to be able to see what you're doing. And then some of them even accumulate over time. Like, oh, you've done a hundred exercise you know, like, a hundred things. And so, like, you've reached these milestones, etcetera. So every everyone's a little bit different in terms of, like, what exactly is gonna motivate them from a game of engagement perspective. But, but, yeah, I would definitely give that a try.

Jeff Gaudette [00:33:57]: Something you know, I'd I there are a lot of apps, so, like, I can't recommend one off the top of my head. But, definitely easy to Google, like, what some what some of interest could be.

Cory Nagler [00:34:08]: For sure. Yeah. And if I if I find any, I'll definitely try to link them in the show notes. But, I I wanna get into maybe some ways that runners can help themselves to to fit that in a little bit more. But, I'll just add first from my own experience why I don't do that, which is really just it's one more thing to worry about when I'm already logging runs on Strava and then having to put them into the Excel sheet for my coach. It's it's just, you know, it's that one extra step if you have another

Jeff Gaudette [00:34:35]: app. Yeah. For sure. And that's so like, I look at it as in, like, that would be a, requirement of the app is to make it easier to make it automatic. There are some, and I don't know exactly how they work or, like, how expensive it is, but I do know there are some that, like, do it automatically. Like, basically, they, like, track your movement to the point where it's like it's, like, basically recording all the data without you really having to enter anything. Again, I'm not exactly sure how it works or, like, what the cost is, but, like, if that is, like, the limiting factor or the one of the reasons that's, like, really holding you back, then something you could certainly try.

Cory Nagler [00:35:12]: Yeah. Okay. And I think another piece that's maybe related to strength work and and one reason why maybe people don't do it is is the time piece. So I think there's kind of two sides to this. There's the genuinely being totally out of time. You're completely booked. But But then I think there's the maybe more common side to what you brought up, which is the rationalization, of not being able to do it, especially the elements of training that runners don't like as much. So why do you think this is something that you see so often in the athletes you work with?

Jeff Gaudette [00:35:42]: You know, I don't think this is necessarily unique to runners in the sense that, like, if you look at, like, the fitness community overall, whether it be strength training, CrossFit, whatever it is, you see a lot of people that are that are not runners that say the reason they don't go to the gym or the reason they don't exercise is they don't have time. It's not just running. Like, people sometimes people that aren't running at all say they don't have time for exercise. And so this is just one of those things that's just like your mind will always take the path of least resistance. Right? And so for us, we love running, etcetera, etcetera. So getting out the door is not a mental hurdle for for a lot of runners, like people that love to run. Going running is our therapy. It's what we love to do.

Jeff Gaudette [00:36:22]: Going to the gym, our our mind is always gonna create, barriers to to doing that. Our mind, it gets back to that evolutionary idea of, like, our mind is always going to fight us to do nothing, you know, to to basically just eat, sleep, and, like, survive. And so anything outside of those things, our mind is gonna fight us. And so I think we get this our mind develops this perception of, like, oh, I just don't have the time. But like I said, it you know, you can do a really quality strength training in fifteen to ten, fifteen, twenty minutes, you know, depending on what how long you wanna get in there. But when you really think about that, that's not a lot of time. And there are definitely certainly people or days or times where legitimately don't have twenty minutes. I get that.

Jeff Gaudette [00:37:06]: But I would say that that's for most people, that's not a consistent thing where you can't find twenty minutes throughout the day. Like I said, for me, I started realizing that, like, when my son was bathing, like, I wasn't really doing much. And I was like, oh, this is actually a really good time where I can do my strength training. And so that's when I started to do my strength training. Another thing that I started to do as well, and, again, this is all dependent on families, but, like, my five year old loves to go to the gym now. And so we're we're lucky we live in a community with a little gym. So he's always like, I pick him up from school and the he wants to go to the gym. He's five I mean, he doesn't really do much.

Jeff Gaudette [00:37:36]: He kinda walks on a treadmill, but, he loves to go. So for me, that's really great because I get to go. And, yeah, every once in a while, I have to make sure that he doesn't fall off the back of the treadmill. But, like, for me, I it it's been a a huge boon to being able to for getting me to go to the gym. So maybe it's one of those things where it's like, you can combine it with other things. So if you have a family, you can take your family and say, hey. Today, you know, three days a week, we're gonna spend twenty minutes in the gym together, and we're all gonna do this routine together, you know, kind of thing. I know I see a lot of these on, like, either TikTok, Instagram, whatever, you know, these reels of, like, families doing exercise together.

Jeff Gaudette [00:38:11]: And I know it sometimes feel seems a little corny to to see that, but, like, it really can be a good way to to get that in. So I think a lot of it comes down to being creative and then realizing that you're gonna have to fight your mind. Your mind is always gonna come up with excuses. I'm tired. I don't have time. I'm hungry, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And realizing that that's part of, like, fighting that mental barrier is part of, like, getting it in. Like, to me, that's, I guess maybe that's my outlook on things.

Jeff Gaudette [00:38:37]: Like, fighting that mental barrier is just one of those ways that we try to continue to to grow and develop and and be better people is fighting that that mental struggle.

Cory Nagler [00:38:46]: Alright, Jeff. I don't have kids. I'm gonna defer to you on this one. Mhmm. But is it really that simple if you have little kids to just bring them with you to the gym?

Jeff Gaudette [00:38:55]: In my experience so every kid is different, like, based on, like, I own you know, I have four, and every kid is very different. But all of mine have wanted to spend time with with me or their mom. And so sometimes it's not about what you're doing. So I'll say this too. My kid the youngest is the one that goes to the gym with me, and he's only five. The other ones really can can care. But they're older, so they can be home alone. So, like, to me, once, you know, five, six, seven years old, like, they want to be with you, and they will copy you.

Jeff Gaudette [00:39:24]: So for those that have kids, like, they copy everything that you do. And so if you're somebody that goes consistently to the gym or goes consistently running, your kids are gonna do that too. Like, it's just kinda one of those things that's, like, natural. And it's one of those things I'll I'll and I'm getting a little personal now, but, like, it makes you proud. Right? Because I love to run. I love to exercise. I like to go to the gym. And so to see your children also, like those things or at least take interest in them is is really cool.

Cory Nagler [00:39:51]: That's awesome. And hopefully instilling good habits in them so they don't run through injury and and miss out on strength training and all the other things we've done.

Jeff Gaudette [00:39:57]: And and I'll say, like, this you know, I'm I'm talking about my youngest here. I have a 14 year old daughter, and getting her out of her room is, like, the the hardest thing in the world. So every you know, you go through phases.

Cory Nagler [00:40:08]: You have to take the small wins. Right?

Jeff Gaudette [00:40:10]: Yeah. Exactly.

Cory Nagler [00:40:13]: Alright. I'm I'm gonna go back to what was gonna be the original topic for all of this podcast, which is recovery runs. Again, another one that sounds so simple. Just keep it slow. Keep it recovery paced. So difficult. Why is that?

Jeff Gaudette [00:40:30]: Lot of reasons. So like you said, you know, kind of the stratification of things, certainly makes it more difficult because we're always super, super aware of, like, what our pace is. And no matter how much somebody tells you that, you know, this is your optimal pace isn't within this range, etcetera, etcetera, and that optimal pace range is slow, like, it still feels good to go faster. You know? Like, I know it. I I, you know, I coach. I do it, etcetera. And then when I run faster than I should, I think, wow. I feel great today.

Jeff Gaudette [00:41:00]: That's awesome. And so, you know, there's just that mental side of things that, like, makes it super, super difficult. I think a lot of runners are just hardwired that anything that we do that is more effort or a greater intensity, greater pace, etcetera, etcetera, is better. And so that's something that's, like, super hard to get out of our our systems. And then you tack in, social, pressure, whether it be Strava, whether it be, running groups, etcetera. Just adds in that adds fuel to the fire of how difficult that can be.

Cory Nagler [00:41:34]: Yeah. And how much of the time do you think runners label something literally on Stravor or just in their mind as a recovery run and go too fast, versus maybe thinking of it as a workout when really they should be taking a recovery run and all? I'll give you an example of where my head's at is I think a lot of runners tend to naturally kinda pick up the pace. Maybe they'll start slow and get quicker, and and then that kinda just becomes, hey. This was a progression run. It is kind of a way to to to label it so that it's it it was never intended to be an easy run-in the first place, even if maybe that's what was on the training plan.

Jeff Gaudette [00:42:08]: Yeah. That's a great question and a great I I think for me, what what I always try to tell athletes is that every single run that you do has a purpose. Right? And so the recovery runs, as though they may seem like the most inconsequential part of your training plan, are very important. And their purpose is to help you recover. And they do that because the way the body recovers is through the blood. So blood delivers nutrients, and it helps the muscles repair. So the more blood you can get into the muscles, the faster they theoretically can can repair themselves and get back and help you recover, get back to training harder the next day, etcetera. So when we think about getting blood into the legs, the best way to do that or one of the easiest ways to do that is to run.

Jeff Gaudette [00:42:50]: Because it serves two things. One, it helps you move your legs. And two, it does provide an aerobic stimulus that does help you progress from a long term perspective. So when we think about that, when we look at our training schedule and it says recovery run, like, what always helped me is to think, okay. Today's purpose is to recover. The more I can execute that and recover, the better that's gonna be for me in the long term. Running faster does not necessarily help me execute the recovery set this recovery session better. And so that always helped me, at least from the start of things, like, execute recovery runs better and to realize that these are an important part of the training plan.

Jeff Gaudette [00:43:27]: They have a purpose. They're not just there as, like, junk miles or, like, to put in miles. That's how I've always looked at it, and that's what I tell athletes. And that seems to be what works best.

Cory Nagler [00:43:36]: And beyond the speed, is there any other element of a recovery run that you think runners can screw up?

Jeff Gaudette [00:43:44]: Yeah. The distance for sure. So, like, this this is a problem of mine for sure. I was always a a high volume runner, and I would get caught up in the weekly volume totals, in the daily volume totals. And that would take recovery runs from being purely recovery runs regardless of the pace to being something that added fatigue. And so that gets a little trickier in marathon training because you do wanna have some semblance of fatigue in there. But that can be the way to screw up recovery is that if there's not necessarily a hard line, but there's definitely a point of diminishing returns from the sense of, like, okay. This is gonna be completely dependent on what your volume is, like your overall volume, what you can handle.

Jeff Gaudette [00:44:24]: But any all of us, if you're running consistently and you're training hard, will have a certain amount of miles that you can do that, I for lack of a better way to say it, is basically effortless. Right? And that to me is like your recovery distance. Because as long as you run it easy enough from a there's really no big effort, and that's actually promoting recovery. Then we start there's a slow shift of, like, okay. You add another mile, and it's like, okay. Now it's become the app there's efforts increasing. It's not just there's no effort. And then you add another mile, and it's like, there's a little bit of fatigue being in there.

Jeff Gaudette [00:44:56]: And then you add another mile. So, like, there's a spectrum there. And once you start getting into that spectrum is when I think you start becoming recovery runs and start becoming some type of fatigue building exercise.

Cory Nagler [00:45:08]: Is it truly just based on feel and effort? Like, say you're a 35, 40 mile a week marathoner, and you go out and run 15 miles, but it feels completely effortless. Can that be labeled as a recovery run?

Jeff Gaudette [00:45:23]: I would hesitate to say no because I think from a physiological perspective, it just it just not. Like, even though you felt good and even though things and even if you kept it easy, like, there's still fatigue that's being built up that even if you don't realize it in the moment, it's going to impact your workouts down the line. I think that's the hardest thing about injuries running injuries in general, recovery runs, etcetera, is that, like, there's it doesn't just happen with a snap. So it's not like, okay. My recovery day today was four four miles, and I had to do it at ten minutes per mile or whatever. And then you run 4.01 miles. And then if you did that, you get hurt. Right? Like, that in a way, that would be good because, like, then we've just like, okay.

Jeff Gaudette [00:46:07]: Four miles stop, never get hurt, etcetera. Or, you know, whatever your pace. Okay. Now I ran nine minutes per mile, and then next day you're hurt. Like, that's not how it happens. You're that fatigue builds up over time, and it accumulates day by day by day, week by week by week, and then that's what leads to overuse injuries, leads to being over fatigued during a specific workout and then biomechanics changing, etcetera. And so, yeah. So I would say that in that case, I don't think that can be a recovery run.

Jeff Gaudette [00:46:35]: That's just my personal opinion on it.

Cory Nagler [00:46:37]: And if runners wanna make sure that they get the recovery run right, you just brought up there's kind of a gray zone between feel, but also physiologically, you can still feel good and step over that line. So how do runners make sure that their recovery runs are serving the right purpose?

Jeff Gaudette [00:46:54]: Yeah. So there are definitely calculations or formulas that you can do from a to get your pace perspective. And then so what I suggest runners do is we have a calculator, and we can link it up in the show notes of, like, what your recovery pay should be. So I start with that. Like, okay. That's the that's the general range. And then when I tell athletes to do is then take that range and then go by feel. So start out on the slower range.

Jeff Gaudette [00:47:16]: If things feel good, you can pick it up all the way up to the faster range. If things don't feel good, either cut the run short, it's totally fine to run slower. So use that as the as the, like, speed limit, really, and then let your body decide where in that limit or where in that range fits you best for that day.

Cory Nagler [00:47:34]: Alright. I like it. So we touched on finding a calculator for pace, you know, finding a little bit what's gonna what's gonna fit on the day, what makes the most sense. I think one more piece that maybe comes into it is where those recovery runs fit in your week or even the route you're gonna take. Should it be hilly or flat, stuff like that? Does any of that matter? Can you screw that stuff up?

Jeff Gaudette [00:47:59]: Yeah. I would definitely say you can screw that up. I mean, ideally I mean, you're still you may be dealing with limitations that are outside your control. Like, if you just live in a really hilly area and you can't get anywhere that's flat, you kinda just have to do what you can do. But, like, generally speaking, if you can keep things on a flat, softer surface, that's gonna be a better better for recovery. Because hills, you can certainly go up them and down them slow enough or cautiously enough that you're not inducing any additional fatigue, etcetera. But that then that becomes another variable. Right? That just means something you have to, like, kinda consciously think about.

Jeff Gaudette [00:48:31]: Like, okay. I'm going up the hill. Make sure that I slow my pace down. Make sure I take it easy, etcetera. And even even that, like, up and down hills, are search are still going to create some type of additional effort require some type of additional effort than just running on flat ground does it. So, ideally, your your runs are as comfortable as possible, but logistically, we know that's not always the case. We get into this a lot with the summer because heat is something that impacts our recovery. Our body's try our body spends energy and time trying to cool ourselves down, both during the run itself and then in during the day.

Jeff Gaudette [00:49:04]: So that's one of those things where it's like, yeah, you really can't do it. If you live in a hot part of the country, and you just have to run the heat, that's just part of one of those things that you have to, like, realize. But, yeah, those things can make play factors.

Cory Nagler [00:49:17]: Yeah. And I think it really does, you know, nail down the the importance of really knowing your effort level because, really, you can plug it into that calculator, but that's gonna assume I'm guessing that you're heading out on a nice, you know, fifty, sixty degree day on flat terrain. It's it's probably not accounting for if you're going up a 5% gradient hill in the middle of a hundred degrees midsummer.

Jeff Gaudette [00:49:42]: Right. Exactly. And stressed. And so, you know, there's so many factors that can play into, like, how you feel during a workout. So did you drink a lot of caffeine? Are you properly fueled? Are you stressed at work? You know, all that kind of stuff. Did you play with your kids all day? You know, that kind of stuff.

Cory Nagler [00:49:56]: Awesome. Alright. So, Jeff, I am kinda playfully gonna label this podcast, don't screw up the easy stuff. Even after we've gone through all of these topics, I'm I'm probably still gonna screw stuff up on this list. I'm sure a lot of people listening are. So what's the high level takeaway to at least, you know, get a little bit better?

Jeff Gaudette [00:50:16]: So I would say this. So it's not necessarily a takeaway, but here's how I approach it. Like, consistency beats perfection. So you don't have to do everything perfect every day all the time. But as long as you're trying to put in the effort every day to be consistent, and so if five out of seven days of the week or six out of the seven days a week, you have a good routine, you follow things appropriately, then things are gonna work out. You're gonna be in a good situation. So that's how I try to look at it. I think in the sense of just try to focus on the consistency, the overall big picture, not necessarily, like, one specific day, like, that being the be all end all.

Cory Nagler [00:50:52]: Awesome. Focus on the big picture. I like it. I feel like we really got, like, intimate and new show with all these very specific things that run or screw up. And then really it all comes back to, you know, do the best you can. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Jeff Gaudette [00:51:04]: Yeah. Hopefully. And, you know, I hope that anybody that's listening to this, they're able to find one or two takeaways that helps them. And I know that's for me, like, when I listen to podcasts, etcetera, like, I'm always trying to just get one or two nuggets to that that I can apply to myself. And so, hopefully, some of the advice and some of the anecdotal evidence that I provided, I give you some good tips that can help you stay consistent with all of the things that should be simple, but aren't always easy.

Cory Nagler [00:51:30]: Yeah. And I think my biggest takeaway maybe from today and I honestly, I can't even remember which topic, we brought it up related to, but it's make it easier on yourself. I I think maybe that was related to nutrition, but I think it applies to a lot of aspects of running.

Jeff Gaudette [00:51:43]: For sure. Absolutely.

Cory Nagler [00:51:44]: Awesome. Cool. Jeff, I think that was super helpful. Hopefully, inspiring me to to do a little bit of the strength work, making sure that I'm doing my recovery runs right and all those other stuff. I appreciate you coming on and joining the show today.

Jeff Gaudette [00:51:58]: Oh, so happy, and I hope everybody enjoyed listening. Thanks for having me.

Cory Nagler [00:52:15]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at Corey underscore Nagler or through Strava by searching Corey Nagler. And please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast. Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, then consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runners connect dot net forward slash podcast. I'll see you on the next show, but until then, happy running, everyone.