Running Data Decoded: How to Use Common Performance Metrics to Maximize Your Training

Coach Ruiari [00:00:00]: I if it felt easy, I'm not stressed about what the pace is. I've I've had days where, you know, I just did a hillier route the other day, and I was barely under nine minute pace, but I was not concerned. I'm at 7,000 feet. I was tired from teaching, and that's what my easy pace was that day. And sure enough, my heart rate was in that one thirty five range, and that was it.

Cory Nagler [00:00:23]: My guest today is coach Rory, who's probably a lot more easy going with his training than most runners. I'm totally guilty myself of getting wrapped up and having a pretty Strava graph or even trying to stand or some kind of arbitrary pace for easy runs. Maybe not my best habit, but I still think that there's a lot of great ways that data from your GPS watch or other tracking devices can help better your training. Today, we're geeking out on all the data to help you figure out which metrics you should care about and how to use them to optimize your training. I apologize if my voice is just a little bit muffled, but I'm coming off a bit of a cold right now with stuff is really going around and try trying to make sure that I keep the content coming to you guys through your winter training. So with that, let's get into the data and today's show. Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler.

Cory Nagler [00:01:24]: And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Hey, Rory. Welcome back for another podcast, man.

Coach Ruiari [00:01:46]: Hey, Corey. Thanks for having me. As always, good to be here.

Cory Nagler [00:01:50]: Yeah. It's good to have you. And, I think I have clearly not done my homework beforehand because we're talking about all things data today, and you told me just before the show you consider yourself old school. Is that right?

Coach Ruiari [00:02:03]: Yeah. It might become clear some of the data I'm gonna dismiss. Other stuff I respect and look at the numbers, but generally, I have a pretty laid back approach to training with regards to the metrics, and I look at the bigger picture which can, befuddle some other runners, but it's worked for me and I think the athletes I coach you get used to it to kind of understand it, but it takes a while. And it also depends when you got into running in my opinion and what kind of gadgets you've had over the years.

Cory Nagler [00:02:35]: So just how old school are we talking here Rory? Like are we talking Timex old school?

Coach Ruiari [00:02:41]: Yeah. That's a good way to, I guess, qualify it. I I'd say I didn't have a GPS watch in college. So that could be kind of a notable cutoff. You know, I'm 35, I'm turning 36 later this fall. So yeah, for the most part, I think those are pretty formative years too because a lot of my training principles and workouts I did, you know, it was either the coach yelling the splits and we had nothing and sometimes he'd say no watch or yeah definitely the the Timex or one of those. I mean literally I think I had Target watches for a while. Definitely in high school I had the the cheapo watches and stuff.

Coach Ruiari [00:03:24]: So that's where I'm at. What about you? Similar?

Cory Nagler [00:03:28]: I don't think so. Like, I I love my dad. You always

Coach Ruiari [00:03:30]: had GPS? Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:03:32]: I so I wouldn't say I always had GPS. When I first started training, for sure, it was like an old Timex watch maybe back in high school. But I think running in university when I got a Garmin, that was kind of a revelation. And I was, you know, super excited to be able to look through all that data. I think I've kind of sit more at a midpoint now where I still like being able to see my pace and have easy tracking for the mileage rather than an estimate, but I tend not to get as bogged down in sort of the more intricate data that you can find if you really dig deep in the app.

Coach Ruiari [00:04:04]: Good to know. Well, we can talk about about why that that data is there at all if we're saying it's it's too intricate to worry about. But, yeah. Do you wanna get into it?

Cory Nagler [00:04:16]: Yeah. Let's get into that. Just first, in terms of how to track it, so I I think the most common way is definitely through your watch. Do you know are there any other ways that runners tend to measure data? Or I guess how would you do it before you had a GPS watch?

Coach Ruiari [00:04:29]: Oh, I think map my run. Map my run was, a go to tool. Some of those websites, they still actually exist. Strava would be probably number one where you could map the route and, you know if you're always doing your neighborhood loop. There could be benefit in you know maybe having one day where you know it's a four to six mile route, you always hit it, you leave the watch behind, you can check the time before you leave. I know that would be pretty bold and just come back and see what it is. That's kinda essentially what I did. In high school, I'd always just look at the microwave clock at my parents house and come back and I knew it was roughly four miles and I could could verify it.

Coach Ruiari [00:05:11]: There are some people and it's happened to me where my watch dies and, I'll have the Strava app going or people use another app, and sometimes they'll have you can put the audio cues on so it might give you a mile split and say it. And I sort of like those those kind of days as well because, you know, I'm sure I still look at my watch many dozens of times even if I'm not too concerned about what it's saying just out of as a little tick. Whereas having the phone sometimes in your pocket or I have a little belt I carry, you know, I might hear a beep but other than that I'm not really checking until the end. So that's an option too for people who are really kind of addicted to just checking the pace and splits and all that and metrics, heart rate every few seconds.

Cory Nagler [00:05:59]: So you're actually running with your phone on you?

Coach Ruiari [00:06:02]: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how people do. I do have designated phone days. I think think we've talked about it before like workouts, speed workouts, all business. No phone, but if I need music, I can even put music on some of the watches I have now, but I don't know. I just kinda like being able to have the playlist I want and put a song on at any given moment or at a stoplight, change it up. So

Cory Nagler [00:06:31]: Love it. Good stuff. Alright. Let's talk about types of data now. I think you touched on it a little with the real old school looking at map my run, obviously, distance, but there's so many other things you can track. So beyond mileage, what are some of the things you tend to look at?

Coach Ruiari [00:06:47]: Yeah. So first of all, just touching on those those items we talked about, I would say if you want to, I think it's pretty well known by now, but the risk based heart rate monitors tend to be, you know, they're they're getting very good where they're probably 90% accuracy. If you just want that next level of confidence, I would recommend the chest strap, which is not fun to wear. Maybe speed workouts could be a good day to wear it, and I know it's picking up a lot of steam as the armbands. I know Coros has a version, so that would just be some clarification there. Meaning that I'd say that probably the three numbers I'm looking at the most and I'm happy to talk about the other ones listed, you know, on your Garmin or whatever watch you have, are probably gonna be pace, like I'm aware of it, just to make sure I don't go outside of my set parameters, I don't want to be crushing it too fast even if I feel really good. Typically I won't beat myself up if I'm going too slow, but I'm not gonna lie there's some days where I'll just have a mini threshold whether it's like I just want to stay under eight minutes today, I feel a little clunky when I go slower. I know everyone's definition of slower is different.

Coach Ruiari [00:08:04]: So I'm looking at pace, definitely have distance, you know, there's some days where I I run by time and I advise athletes to run by time, heart rate. And then one thing that I'm looking at, I know I can set my watch to show it in real time, but I'm definitely, more interested in power these days, especially, when I'm running trails and, just on different terrain. And I more have been looking at it after the fact just to kind of compare. I have a pretty good gauge where if I, in Flagstaff here, will go between roads, forest service roads, you know, which is gravel and then trails and that can all be on one run. So it's kind of interesting just to see that power grid. I have an idea of like, I kept it easy throughout but you can actually see see the difference in the power output. And typically, I'm putting out less power on a technical trail even though my heart rate's still at the same level as a higher power on like say a paved surface. So it's just something I'm I'm aware of and that way I know, you know, what's pushing hard on the trails and when I should back off if it's a truly easy trail day.

Cory Nagler [00:09:19]: So do you see any use for power output as a measurement for runners on flat roads, or would you say that's something that's more useful for trail runners?

Coach Ruiari [00:09:29]: I think it's it's okay to reference. You know, if something feels off and it was just kind of a sluggish day, you know, I try to just not get too concerned with, like, an off day, and it'll just confirm, like, oh, yeah. You know, maybe I'm at, like, I feel like I've just seen an average of, like, two fifteen to two thirty maybe for easy runs. Again, my my numbers may be a lot different and I'm I'm recovering from, an injury right now or rather a surgery, foot procedure. So I'm kind of just in that range and if it's slower and I felt kind of slower, more inefficient the power numbers will just back that. And then rather than being depressed about it, I'm just like oh I was correct in that. I felt a little I've I've been using the word clunky a lot in my running as I'm coming back from an injury or it just doesn't feel smooth and I'll be like, yep, that that power number shows us a little clunkier on the roads today.

Cory Nagler [00:10:30]: Yeah. And one other metric that you talked about that's used a lot is heart rate. And I think there's a lot of runners that debate between should you train off of pace versus should you train off of heart rate? Do you use both of those or do you tend to prefer one or the other, especially in terms of what you recommend to your athletes?

Coach Ruiari [00:10:49]: Not very popular. This is the hardest one to get down if you're experienced. I like perceived effort. I'm pretty good over the decades. I know the perceived effort nearly all most of the time unless I'm like sick or have some kind of off thing going on that day. If I'm running easy I'm able to guess my heart rate maybe within five beats per minute. Like if it's easy I'm probably in around one thirty five to one forty. If I rate it like a one to four out of 10, and then I just know my paces are gonna be in the, it depends, I'm at 7,000 feet.

Coach Ruiari [00:11:26]: I I run closer to low seven at sea level, but up in flag, I'm just finding my comfort zone is, like, seven forty five to, like, eight fifteen when I'm healthy. Hurt, I'm a little slower. So.

Cory Nagler [00:11:42]: So Rory, in a training plan, it's easy to write down, you know, run at seven minute mile pace or keep your heart rate in this range. What are you putting down if you're going off of perceived exertion?

Coach Ruiari [00:11:54]: Oh, for an athlete?

Cory Nagler [00:11:56]: For For an athlete or even for yourself if you have like a training journal.

Coach Ruiari [00:12:01]: Yeah. I I write down all the numbers, and I just know it. I think that's part of it too. You don't always have to critique yourself with the numbers, but I will list you know especially as I'm doing my comeback here from this injury, I'll list the pace, power, cadence, we can talk about that one. Heart rate and I'll just kind of see a trend. I know what ballpark I should be in. Again like I'll, yeah pace I don't know that one I'm I'm honestly I reference it but I'm least concerned about. Because I just know especially with the varied terrain I pick, I if it felt easy, I'm not stressed about what the pace is.

Coach Ruiari [00:12:42]: I've I've had days where, you know, I just did a hillier route the other day and I was barely under nine minute pace, but I was not concerned. I'm at 7,000 feet. I was tired from teaching and that's what my easy pace was that day and sure enough my heart rate was in that one thirty five range and that was it. Again, hopefully I'm not, it's not frustrating for people. I'm definitely casual about it and how this, if if you wanna drill down on one for heart rate, and we can talk about it. I think another valuable one besides power I picked out was heart rate variability, if you have that feature.

Cory Nagler [00:13:21]: Alright. So let's get into that. What is heart rate variability?

Coach Ruiari [00:13:25]: Yeah. Basically, my understanding is just, you know, measuring the time between each beat, right, with your with your heart rate. So basically you're gonna have, you want to have a higher heart rate variability because it means you're more rested. So when you push yourself, exert yourself in a run or hard effort, maybe it's a speed day, If you're fitter, your heart rate comes down quicker, which means there's gonna be more variability which seems confusing. Usually, you know, you you think lower would be better, but if you're having less variability between it, it can mean your heart is not able to recover as quickly, you know, it's still stressed and, you know, beating a little bit harder than it should be when you might be not rested, sick, still recovering from, you know, things going on in your life, the training workload.

Cory Nagler [00:14:20]: And what's the unit of measurement for running variability?

Coach Ruiari [00:14:26]: For heart rate variability? Yeah. Good question. I don't have I don't have that.

Cory Nagler [00:14:35]: And I guess even even if you don't have the unit, I guess what I'm trying to get at is how you would actually use that. Like, is this just a measurement to tell you how fit you are or is or is there some way you might tweak tweak your training if you know that you have a higher lower heart rate variability?

Coach Ruiari [00:14:50]: Yeah. Can we do a live lookup?

Cory Nagler [00:14:53]: Yeah. By all means.

Coach Ruiari [00:14:54]: Let's do it.

Cory Nagler [00:14:56]: Okay. Let's figure out what is the unit of measurement for heart rate variability?

Coach Ruiari [00:15:01]: Yeah. I know for athlete like, you can approach a hundred.

Cory Nagler [00:15:07]: But a hundred what?

Coach Ruiari [00:15:08]: So milliseconds. It's the see, it's what I was saying. I knew it was time between heart between heartbeats. So it's a measure of the time intervals between consecutive heartbeats expressed in milliseconds.

Cory Nagler [00:15:21]: Okay. Very technical.

Coach Ruiari [00:15:24]: Now a lot of times though, I think the number you're getting, like maybe a sleep score, incorporates, those kinds that kind of data. So I think some of the sleep scores are based on a hundred. I personally don't or own an Oura ring, but I know Garmin has that feature. Have you ever looked at, like, your readiness score or something like that on your watch?

Cory Nagler [00:15:47]: My score is constantly unproductive and telling me to take more rest.

Coach Ruiari [00:15:50]: Okay. But I

Cory Nagler [00:15:51]: think that's most runners' Garmin.

Coach Ruiari [00:15:54]: Yeah. Yeah. That's something we could get into there. So, yeah, I I need to I guess you need to nitpick on your watch. I do think that particular number is important, but when you get the readiness score it's supposedly tying in you know while you're sleeping, right. Stages of sleep like movement, your breathing rate, and then it's also like accumulating some of your data from like paces and workouts that week. And that score I think is very flawed for a couple reasons we could talk about. One one simple one that I see a lot is, you know, people will be concerned by a readiness score ticking down or maybe even a v o two max score.

Cory Nagler [00:16:45]: Or performance condition. Performance conditioning. Right? Declining. That's one I've seen, like, ticking down on, like, almost all the runs I've been going on even though I'm getting deeper in the training cycle.

Coach Ruiari [00:16:56]: In my theory, I've seen maybe some people confirm it in blogs is that sometimes I'll have a really good workout. You know, I crush the intervals, I know I'm really fit, I have some recent race times that show I'm fit and actually after the you know I'll record that separately then I do my cool down which is gonna be ridiculously slow because I just did a a really tough workout on the track, the roads, and I always treat myself to a super slow cool down. So it kind of logs that as oh there's an easy effort that follows this performance and for some cases I'm running like super easy for a couple days afterwards to recover and I'm just going really slow. Yeah, my heart rate's up a little bit because I'm recovering. I take it super easy but I know I'm fit from that workout But Garmin's just looking at the numbers like oh he's going really slower now and most weeks he's been doing like you know low seven pace and now he's just doing eight. So I'm not sure how they I would like to interview someone from Garmin maybe to see how that's determined. But that's why I think, those numbers can show unproductive in some cases after really good races or workouts.

Cory Nagler [00:18:13]: So do you see value in any of the calculated scores that Garmin or Quaros or any of these brands will give you? And what I mean by calculated is something like a v o two max or a readiness score where it's not an an absolute measure the same way PACE is?

Coach Ruiari [00:18:29]: I'd say it's okay to reference. You can, like, establish some patterns. Right? Like, it may not truly be accurate. It's kind of exaggerating, you know, how tired you are because you felt like going really slow that week on most of your runs or you had one bad workout and it just magnifies how that this week was before the previous one. However, yeah, if you can establish a pattern and just wake up and you see the numbers lower by a few points, maybe it's more than five. You know, I wouldn't let it color your day as in, oh, I'm gonna get sick today, like I'm going downhill. But I would just be kind of on alert, like you take special attention. Let me get to bed half hour earlier tonight if I can and, you know, do the extra things throughout the day, hydrate adequately, get enough, you know, carbs before the workout if you have one in the afternoon and you're going to work for the day.

Coach Ruiari [00:19:26]: So I would use it as a reference.

Cory Nagler [00:19:30]: Hey. You're a little on the nose with that one, Rory, because I'm recording this after just coming through a cold. And I'll tell you, it's it's not my Garmin readiness score that alerts me if I'm sick. It's definitely the congestion and brain fog.

Coach Ruiari [00:19:41]: Yeah. Right. And and have you noticed anything like v o two max? Is it, like, tick down or something?

Cory Nagler [00:19:48]: You know what? I I haven't checked my v o two max. The one thing I do notice is that, like, the resting heart rate does tend to creep up a little, and it always tells me, like, my stress score and stuff is up. So I I guess there are some measurements. The one thing is though, you know, the difference between correlation and causation. I feel like there's also several other times when I've just had a hard workout and it goes up and I'm not sick.

Coach Ruiari [00:20:11]: Yeah. That that sounds about right.

Cory Nagler [00:20:17]: Have you been struggling in training, but can't seem to pinpoint what's going on? Well, low iron might just be the cause. Research indicates that runners are two and a half times more likely to suffer from low iron compared to non runners. Having low iron can cause your workouts to feel harder, and you'll often feel more fatigued after runs and throughout the day. But trying to eat an iron rich diet doesn't always work, since only about 17 to 25 of dietary iron is absorbed. Plus, traditional supplements often lead to stomach issues. I know I've had this problem before, but not with Mass Iron. Mass iron has found a way to combat these absorption and stomach issues, to ensure you can get the iron you need for health and performance. By combining the most efficiently absorbed form of elemental iron with clinically proven ingredients to aid in absorption, mass iron performs like no other iron product on the market.

Cory Nagler [00:21:06]: In fact, clinical research has shown the combination of ingredients in mass iron can quadruple absorption and increase bioavailability by 30%, all while reducing GI issues by 50%. Check out the research and the results for yourself at massedge.com/iron. That's masedge.com/iron. Plus, runners connect fans will automatically save 20% on any purchase. As you know, two of the most important pillars for everything we do at runners connect center around individualization and science. That's why when it comes to nutrition plans and losing weight, we highly recommend the coaching team at MetPro. First, the science. MetPro analyzes your individual metabolism to get baseline data on your body and see exactly how your body is responding against a specific set of variables.

Cory Nagler [00:22:02]: This means no cookie cutter diets or formulas. With this personal data on hand, MetPro coaches create your meal plan based on what works for your body. No guessing involved. Your MetPro coach then works with you to consistently make adjustments based on your metabolic data, as well as how the plan fits with your personal lifestyle. MetPro's coaches are not only educated experts in their field, but they're empathetic people who understand that you have demanding schedules and often stressful lives. They will work with you one on one to identify the best nutrition and fitness strategy that's going to work for your personal goals and lifestyle needs. Whether your goals are to eat healthier, get closer to your ideal weight, or finally fix your race fueling issues, MetPro has the coaches and data to help. And right now, you can get a free thirty minute consultation and metabolic assessment just by heading to metpro.co/rttt.

Cory Nagler [00:22:55]: That's metpr0.co/rttt. I don't know. What what's your finding? Do you do you find that if you're sick or tired and stuff like that, that it pretty accurately captures it?

Coach Ruiari [00:23:15]: Again, I I don't I don't really look at it. I just know I know I'm getting sick by now. Yeah. I have a teacher, so I'm used to it. And a lot of times, I have to power through and, you know, obviously I'll try not to go in if I know I'm totally contagious, but there's some situations where it's easier to be at work when you're you're not feeling great. And this also isn't probably ideal either but I don't like to sleep with my watch. Maybe I need to get a a better one but the way it just feels a little too tight on my wrist so actually when I go to sleep I just prefer to take it off and I'm not even getting a score. And in some ways that's been better.

Coach Ruiari [00:24:00]: I have worn it before a race and man I've gotten like four hours or less before a race, and it just sucks to see that number on your watch versus taking the watch off and knowing, yes. I only slept, like, four hours.

Cory Nagler [00:24:17]: Yeah. You're the polar opposite of me. I I leave it on, like, all the time. But to be honest, it's not even because of the overnight metrics. It's because of that one extra step of having to take it off and then put it back on.

Coach Ruiari [00:24:28]: Oh, really? Yeah. Interesting. Hey, everyone has a different relationship with their watch.

Cory Nagler [00:24:36]: Very true.

Coach Ruiari [00:24:37]: I won't, put the company the watch I have on blast, but maybe I need a more comfortable, wristband. So I have had it for a few years.

Cory Nagler [00:24:46]: So what do you make of the more niche data that you can find if you really dig into Garmin? So I think I noted some down but things like vertical oscillation, your stride length or cadence, I think you touched on, or maybe stuff that aren't even the watch. I know the Norwegians have gotten into stuff like measuring blood lactate levels. Do you think that there's any value to runners in in getting that granular?

Coach Ruiari [00:25:14]: Stride length, I I really haven't, paid attention to as much. I think there's some benefit to cadence. I just like to be aware of, like, what range I'm in and if I see see it on the lower range. I know personally I have I do have a little bit of history of over striding so, if I dip below one sixty I just know it was kind of a slog of a run and I wasn't really picking up my feet quick enough. Again I I tend to have a really low cadence and, you know a lot of people have that one eighty metric that that target in their their head. Overall what I've heard is you know it's something to keep in mind you don't always have to be at that exact number. When they did those studies they found most athletes racing at a you know certain distances in races this is a key distinction because you tend to have a a slower cadence on easy days. Their average number was a 80 steps, per minute.

Coach Ruiari [00:26:21]: So for whatever reason that kind of took hold and has been shared around social media. But for me, I've just found there's there's not a ton you can do to like really change that number dramatically in my opinion. I don't think it's always great to spend a lot of time adjusting a runner's stride, but if you do things like drills and strength and get fitter, I think you may see it trend a little bit faster. Like I know I have some ultra runners I coach and they have the ultra shuffle and they can be upwards of 200, Which again using 180 as an anchor, I would argue is a little on the fast side. If they can get it a little slower great, but I'm not gonna nag them about it. And, you know I can be on the low end where if I'm under one sixty I just find it was a less productive run-in some cases or there's something a little off. And when I'm with the run group also I've noticed running with other people I I tend to match their cadence and I might be in the upper one sixties to one seventy. And I personally have found, I'm not sure what you've noticed in a race, I will be at that one eighty range.

Coach Ruiari [00:27:34]: But I can only seem to hit that number with the adrenaline of a race. So overall, I have had, you know, that injury address but nothing else too major that was structural that made me concerned about improving my cadence.

Cory Nagler [00:27:51]: I I can't relate, Rory. I think I'm on the extreme end. When I ran my marathon PR, I think I was, like, one ninety one average cadence.

Coach Ruiari [00:27:57]: Okay. You are a higher higher cadence. Yeah. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:28:00]: I I think I get close to, like, one ninety five for, like, shorter five k, 10 k stuff.

Coach Ruiari [00:28:04]: Okay. Yeah. And again I think that's fine it's just not something to obsess over too much, but if if you establish a normal workout range and you see it's higher or lower there could be some kind of reason where oh maybe when I was sluggish today or if it's a lot quicker, you're overcompensating for something, or it could just be another factor like adrenaline and running with other people changes it a little bit.

Cory Nagler [00:28:34]: Alright. Fair enough. For a guy who considers himself old school, you're definitely getting some use out of these data points.

Coach Ruiari [00:28:40]: Yeah. I'd say a little bit. Vertical oscillation, that one for me, I personally haven't used it too much. I know they say like it's measured in centimeters so essentially it's the amount that you're bouncing up and down with each stride. So ideally when racing forward motion, you want to move forward. So if you're spending too much time with a bouncy stride, which is how my coach described my stride in high school and college, also could have been connected to over striding. You're just spending too much time in the air. So ideally you want to have a lower, metric there so that you're more efficient.

Coach Ruiari [00:29:29]: But unless it's like way outside that range, like again I know five to 10 is ideal range. If it is outside of that, I think you can just track it and if you add in things that a lot of our runners connect plans have. One just getting fitter. Even if you don't have the most perfect running stride, I find once you get a really good aerobic base and have are starting to do some speed workouts, like you'll just notice you run smoother and your body finds a way to kind of find that ideal form for your body type. And you may see that number kind of stabilize or get to the right range so to speak. Also, things that I think are key would be drills. Like drills is probably one of the number one things I think you can do to subtly improve your running form besides just more mileage.

Cory Nagler [00:30:26]: And are there any metrics where you just roll your eyes when your athletes bring them up that you don't think there's any value in tracking?

Coach Ruiari [00:30:35]: I would just say the, performance declining messages and you're on vacation and the v o two max dips. And it's just depressing. It's like, yeah. A lot of my runners time a vacation right where they do a big marathon and they take time off afterwards and they've run a PR and then you're just getting a notification at the beach that you're declining in fitness. It's like it's your recovery week. So that would be something I'd roll my my eyes at.

Cory Nagler [00:31:02]: It it's also worth bringing up that these watches, they don't actually measure your VO two max. You can only do that in a lab. What they're doing is they're estimating your VO two max Correct. Using your heart rate. So if that heart rate is 90% accurate, that means there's a 10% margin of error, which I'm assuming also means the VO two max has about a 10% margin of error.

Coach Ruiari [00:31:23]: Exactly. And not to mention, when you do take those tests, you pay quite a bit for them. They're very it's very much a snapshot of how you're feeling that day. You can have some notable swings just based on how rested you are, how much sleep you have, the stress you're undergoing, if you had caffeine that day, so many things.

Cory Nagler [00:31:48]: Alright. So knowing that there's all this data out there, and it it sounds like with the exception of maybe some of these more calculated metrics that you see a lot of value in using data in your training. So when you think about a data driven approach to training and being able to actually make informed decisions based on what you're seeing, how do you think that plays out? And how do you structure training for an athlete using the data that they get from their watch or whatever other source?

Coach Ruiari [00:32:19]: Yeah. You know, just to be super thorough, I wanted to touch on one other one and just clarify Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:32:27]: For sure.

Coach Ruiari [00:32:28]: Again going back to the blood lactate. Is there Yes. The blood lactate levels. See, I again I haven't updated my watch in a little while. Is there a watch metric that this is showing up? I'm I'm totally aware of

Cory Nagler [00:32:42]: the lactate threshold test. Definitely not. Yeah. That's that's something we're gonna have to do like a a prick and get a a blood sample.

Coach Ruiari [00:32:48]: Yes. That's what I that's what I thought. Yeah. I would just quickly to address that one. I would lump that in with a v o two max test. It's an extra thing you can pay for. It can very be very much be a snapshot. If you're like a pro athlete or just have a really relaxed schedule and can get that testing a lot, you kind of need to have multiple goes at it in a way to see, you know, pick up a trend because it could just be a really good or off day and that number changes as your fitness improves or declines.

Coach Ruiari [00:33:21]: So I would just note that. Yeah. I generally wouldn't advise paying for those tests. And the the biggest or the best old school way to get an idea of where you're at is to run a all out mile super fast. You can use a lot of those online tools. Vdot, is one of my favorites. Jack Daniels calculator and they'll give you a pretty good range. I've found I've had athletes pay for the test and, I use that calculator to base some of their workouts and it's put them within that same range often.

Cory Nagler [00:33:59]: Pretty good. Alright. So you think it's worth the investment?

Coach Ruiari [00:34:02]: The test? Yeah. No. I think the time trial is a better way to go about it.

Cory Nagler [00:34:08]: Oh, okay. Okay.

Coach Ruiari [00:34:09]: So Yeah. I think a lot of our athletes who might be listening, they're training for so long for a goal race. We I adv advocate a lot of tune up races, but sometimes your tune up races aren't for a few months. So I think there's a lot of benefits just running a flat out mile or five k to get a a really good snapshot of where your fitness is at. Because sometimes you might not not hit your, max potential in a workout.

Cory Nagler [00:34:37]: Alright. So whether intentional or not, I think you actually brought up a really important way to use data and training. Cause you talked about pace zones and the fact that you're actually using these time trial performances. Is there any other data point you would use when you're trying to prescribe mileage or pace, or or is that really the best way to do it?

Coach Ruiari [00:34:59]: I typically use, like, a recent race performance or time trial as a reference point. Mainly, the the biggest thing I'm finding I have to do I do that is so I know, how fast or rather slow they need to go on easy days. If you are to use like say that v dot o two calculator, I've actually found you put in your your most recent five k time, the paces tend to be a lot faster than I would actually go on my easy days. I was

Cory Nagler [00:35:34]: gonna say the same thing.

Coach Ruiari [00:35:36]: Yeah. The traditional, Jack Daniels, method. The running coach not the not the alcohol because I did have to clarify that for an athlete the other day who didn't know about him. But yeah anyway I I would just always on the side of going a lot slower. So to start with like a beginner athlete that might be a case where we get them used to like, yeah the heart rate zones, you know. Maybe staying in the lower zone one or two. Of course that can be based on their fitness and age. I would not use the traditional equation though.

Coach Ruiari [00:36:18]: There's some athletes I've found that just tend to have a higher heart rate. But again, you find that out with the time trial because if you do record data from that, you're probably gonna hit your max heart rate at some point, d o two max in a mile all out, and you can use that as a reference point. I guess I could kind of speak to one of my athletes who might be listening and it was very minor, but his Garmin told him he had a one seventy heart rate max. And I just think his might go higher and sure enough he we had him do a hard session and he he topped out at one seventy five one day, but it wasn't updating on his Garmin. So he was getting into some zones a little bit quicker and he's in his fifties which can be a bigger difference. Like, if you get up to one forties too early, I mean, depending on your, age that can be a higher zone. So it was helpful to know he had a higher max heart rate than his watch thought.

Cory Nagler [00:37:22]: This reminds me of, like, when you complete a race and sometimes Garmin's race predictor will still predict a time slower than what you just ran.

Coach Ruiari [00:37:29]: Yeah. Yeah. I I'm sorry if this is making everyone's head hurt because there are basically you want to establish those anchor points and then once you have the parameters I don't really stress too much. You just want to know where the limits are. And then day to day I won't stress about an easy run pace once the athlete gets to know oh this is what my heart rate should be on an easy day, this is what the perceived effort feels like, this is usually what the pace is. But oh, I'm on vacation or I'm on a work trip and I'm on this hilly route let me just check-in with power. Usually when I'm at home at flat terrain I'm like two fifteen for power. I should be about that on the hills.

Coach Ruiari [00:38:13]: Oh, I'm at two forty mid run on this hill. I'm putting too much gas on this hill to try to hit my old pace on flat terrain. Right? So that's where you start to use the data, in the moment without getting so obsessed at, like, the big picture, if that makes sense.

Cory Nagler [00:38:34]: Yeah. Okay. So you can use this data to dictate a lot of your training pace and and even to measure your effort. What about from a recovery standpoint? If you wanna pinpoint whether an athlete is working too hard or putting in too much mileage, what are some of the metrics that you turn to?

Coach Ruiari [00:38:53]: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I guess I would start with there's a few ways that are, like, more subjective. I just had some notes like, effort level, so that's why it's good to establish that, you know, if your typical easy run's feeling a lot harder than it should right out the gate. That can be a warning sign. Day after the workout, not a huge deal. If it continues day after day, it just feels harder, that's when you can check the some of those numbers we discussed to confirm.

Coach Ruiari [00:39:25]: Some mental fatigue and burnout beyond the normal, like, oh, I don't want to get out the door for my run, or sometimes it feels like a chore can be an indicator. If you know you're just on a bad stretch of sleep because of your work schedule, maybe you're a parent that can be something that plays into it. And then just day to day energy levels. If you are feeling over trained sometimes I feel like that can carry into your work day or whatever you're doing throughout the day where, yeah it's a little bit hard to get out of bed, but you just it seems like you can't kick it into gear. You're almost like a little bit slower mentally too. So those are some subjective ones. Where you could note maybe data if you are following, like, heart rate. This would be a case where, yeah, maybe you do own the the chest strap or the armband.

Coach Ruiari [00:40:26]: And just to really check, especially wintertime, sometimes you get spikes on the watch for your heart rate in cold weather. I'm sure you can attest.

Cory Nagler [00:40:34]: Yeah.

Coach Ruiari [00:40:35]: It's just not accurate. Or it's it's just not warm against your skin, so it's just giving you very low lethargic readings. That's not accurate. Right? But if you feel like maybe you know I'm overdoing it. I've had a hard workload. I have an athlete who has has the chest strap and I just asked him to wear it to get a more accurate reading. And then, yeah, basically if you're finding your heart rate spikes up quicker, is just higher, I'd say more than five, maybe in like the 10 beats per minute range higher. That would be notable just on easy run days.

Coach Ruiari [00:41:18]: Or waking up if you're finding your resting heart rate's not going as low as it usually does. I'd say five is about that threshold. Over five is notable. Two to four, probably not a big deal.

Cory Nagler [00:41:31]: Yeah. I'm just gonna chime in here because I have a strong opinion on one particular thing you brought up, which is Yeah.

Coach Ruiari [00:41:36]: Tell me.

Cory Nagler [00:41:36]: That training with the wrist based heart rate zone. Cause to me, when you talk about a 10% error, you would never look at your training pace and go, oh, if I'm a minute off, whatever, but people get obsessed with their heart rate in the watch. So is that something you agree with or do you think there's still value?

Coach Ruiari [00:41:57]: Oh, risk based?

Cory Nagler [00:41:59]: Yeah.

Coach Ruiari [00:42:01]: It goes back to what I would say. I wouldn't care so much about the particular number being off, but I guess if yeah. There is a notable spike that continues, not like a momentary one where it's like, oh, I've, you know, readjusted, fixed it. It's still reading high. Like, normally, it is in this range. It's 10 over right now. That's when I would note it.

Cory Nagler [00:42:25]: Yeah. That's fair. You look you look for Trentons as opposed to this specific number.

Coach Ruiari [00:42:29]: Yeah. It is a gamble though. Sometimes the the watches, it's like workout day. It's like when you need it the most. I've had races. It gives me this stupidest readings where it's like, man, I needed it. And, you know, that's where it other things could come into play, like, you're running in a city or urban area or the woods trail run turning too can affect that.

Cory Nagler [00:42:52]: Mhmm. So one of the data points you listed, if it can even be called a data point, was perceived exertion. But unlike the other items we've listed, that's kind of a mental calculus as opposed to something your watch or your phone will tell you. So how do you balance those two things, and to what extent do you think it's important to have a natural intuition to these things?

Coach Ruiari [00:43:21]: I mean that yeah. That's a good question. I think yeah. The intuition is is really important. I think a lot of runners don't want to admit when they're overdoing it. Usually, it's they overdo it. Sometimes you're maybe not pushing yourself enough. This is where go figure we're coaches here.

Coach Ruiari [00:43:43]: As a coach may be able to catch some things that you are not. So first of all, it's gonna get better just year after year, maybe decades of experience. You do have a general awareness of how you should feel, and then you can establish that effort but sometimes you just need like another set of eyes. Even with my experience. Like, it could even be a friend training partner. Maybe you're not ready to, you know, pay for the coaching yet, but I've had also runners at a track workout point out things. Like, I had one friend who convinced me to before I got the surgery, he just saw me running. He's like, dude, you're not you can't do the workout.

Coach Ruiari [00:44:23]: And I just had this limp that just looked really gnarly, but I was like, no. I'm gonna do one more workout before the the surgery, and it was just silly. So it's a little story that comes to mind.

Cory Nagler [00:44:38]: So what what's the takeaway here? Is intuition good because it captures things that that it doesn't, or is it hampered by the fact that we have those natural biases?

Coach Ruiari [00:44:53]: Yeah. It depends how you use it, I guess. If you, get stressed or compare, that can be bad.

Cory Nagler [00:45:05]: Alright. So let's let's frame it a different way. What is the right way to use perceived effort then?

Coach Ruiari [00:45:10]: I mean, I would use it for the most part easy days. Just start there. Figure out can you always identify what your easy pace is on any given day whether it's a recovery run, it's a little bit different. How do you change that after a workout? What's your, you know, midweek? You know, you've had a couple days since the workout. You're not too sore. What pace do you go then? After that, you can use the data to kind of pinpoint what I think is harder for a lot of people, even more experienced runners is like pacing for speed workouts. And then you can use those numbers to either verify mid run or after the run to get to the correct training ranges. But I think a first just starts with easy runs and I even encourage some people to, you know, you can also try that by like flipping your watch over, just going for an easy half hour and truly, you know, it's used a lot but the conversation test is a pretty good one.

Coach Ruiari [00:46:15]: You know, I even told one athlete like I'm gonna have you call me up and talk to me during the run and if I hear you go getting out of breath like you need to slow down and then we can go from there. I didn't actually talk to them but, I think they did it with a friend and that helps. So they established their their easy pace that way. So that's the way you can practice. Hopefully, I'm answering the question.

Cory Nagler [00:46:40]: I think you kind of answered it. What about if I get into more a workout though? Like, I think that's that's a good way to distinguish, am I actually going easy on your easy days? But when you talk about, say, like, a tempo session or a track speed workout, is that when you wanna rely more on data, or is there still use to something more subjective like perceived exertion?

Coach Ruiari [00:47:02]: Yeah. Good point. On workout days, I will lean into the the data to make sure I'm going a certain pace, you know, whether it's mapping out the route track can really help for beginners just to know what should I be at, you know, at the 200 mark of these eight hundreds, what should I be at the 400 meters. Where you can use your perception is, you know, whether it's a coach writing your training or you got the workout from online, you know, you can if you know what your your threshold is, right, you're roughly the pace you can hold for an hour. And if you're supposed to be, hitting that effort and you notice your heart rate's creeping maybe into the one seventies one eighties, like, oh that's kind of closer to like what I would do for five k or 10 k. You're not really achieving the objective of the workout. So in that case, you're both using the data and the fact, wow. I feel like this is hard.

Coach Ruiari [00:48:02]: This is what I did in my turkey trot back in November. I better back off. That's where it comes into play.

Cory Nagler [00:48:09]: Alright. So is it fair to say that for workouts, the hard data is important, but that the subjective perceived effort is kind of a a governor almost to limit yourself if it's too hard. Is is that fair?

Coach Ruiari [00:48:24]: Yeah. I I like that. It's a it's a governor and another thing that comes with experience and even experienced runners can mess us up is just knowing like some days you might not have it or it could just be a small tweak, you know. Maybe you're just outside the pace range you've been given and, it could be those eight hundreds I talked about and maybe you're supposed to have a a 400 meter jog but you just modify it. There's some cases where you know the effort isn't so out of the reach, it's sometimes good to stretch and challenge yourself right. You might be like okay I'm gonna walk the first two hundred then jog the back 200 before I totally abandon this workout. If it gets to the point where the next rep it's like let me just walk that whole 400 and you're just not even adhering to the original workout plan, that's where you can use that to to shift the game plan.

Cory Nagler [00:49:21]: And I can't remember if I've asked you this on another podcast, but when you write a training plan for athletes, are you putting pace or perceived exertion on that workout?

Coach Ruiari [00:49:32]: I do go with pace for the most part because I take a little bit more time upfront for the most part. I'll I'll have a pretty good ballpark maybe I might even go as high as like a fifteen to twenty second per mile pace range, and then we can adjust from there. And usually if I check-in with the athlete, this is where personalized coaching can be a little bit nicer. They can text me and I get the full complete picture to know, for the most part, we're within the target. So

Cory Nagler [00:50:05]: Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. It just made me reflect on my own training. I think my coach typically puts in a range, but always describes it as, like, this is the pace to run-in ideal conditions.

Coach Ruiari [00:50:17]: Oh, yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:50:17]: So, like, if there's, like, any snow or heat or whatnot, it slows down. And it's kind of not meant to be an excuse, but kind of, like, a message that, hey. It's okay if if the conditions don't permit it. Don't don't kill yourself just to hit some pace.

Coach Ruiari [00:50:32]: True. True. Yeah. To to to pick on, like, a threshold since we've talked about that a few times. Totally growing up in, like, a winter climate, you know, if I I had some kind of, like, kilometer repeats or something like that, I always think of threshold. Maybe that it could be a six, maybe that's seven to eight out of 10 perceived effort. So if I'm slipping with each step, it's a little slick out, not quite icy or whatever. I have the micro spikes on.

Coach Ruiari [00:51:03]: I I kind of, one, know what the effort should feel like. And then two, that's a case where I'd lean on heart rate. I would go with what my lactic threshold might be for heart rate. And then paces are just out the window if they're, you know, significantly off, so be it. Yeah. If the other metrics and, again, power could come into play there too with a bad condition day.

Cory Nagler [00:51:28]: So how do you balance it all, Rory? Like, you know, there there's so many things you can look to, whether that's your personal intuition or, you know, one data point, maybe your heart rate saying one thing, and then you have your cadence or vertical oscillation is sending a different message. When you're looking back at your training or thinking on a run, how do you kind of triangulate all those things to get the most insightful feedback on your workout? And maybe to put it just more simply, with all this data, what are you looking at to evaluate your run?

Coach Ruiari [00:52:04]: I mean, I would I guess I'm only really looking at the, for the most part, workouts, race times, larger trends. Like how am I holding up mileage is something I consider weekly within that, but you know mileage is not all equal. If I'm adding workouts, you know, I'm definitely gonna be a lot more beat up, and I can have a lower mileage and be performing a lot better, but also be feeling it because the workouts I'm doing are are higher intensity. So, yeah, I guess those would be the that's what I'd be looking at closely, and I wouldn't get too caught up in the minutiae of day to day as long as the bigger trends are working towards whatever my goal may be. And again, that can vary. Like some people during the winter, I don't have a very fleshed out goal right now. I'm just running. I I added strides.

Coach Ruiari [00:53:08]: That's my speed workout right now. So I'm just kind of looking is my pace getting a little faster and is my heart rate coming down? And it is. And I am happy about that. And I will not even, you know, make my self feel bad right now by trying to do any kind of race performance or workout because I'll just be like I did some strides the other day. I did glance at the pace, you know. I think I did a five fifteen pace for a stride which is what I used to be training for to do an entire marathon at. But I didn't really care about that particular pace. I'm just like, hey, I got used to running up on my toes again which is good because I had a surgery on my foot, which I wasn't able to do a couple months ago.

Coach Ruiari [00:53:54]: So I think that answers right.

Cory Nagler [00:53:57]: Yeah. And, you know, I I think you might have touched on something that runners should maybe do more, which is worry less about individual runs and more about the trends. Because my guess and I'm really just, you know, going off of hunches here, but I bet that for the majority of runners, there's very little correlation between what your heart rate was on one specific run and what your race performance is. But if you look at your mileage trend over a build or your average tempo pace over multiple workouts, that it probably correlates pretty strongly to your performance on race day. But I don't know. What do you think?

Coach Ruiari [00:54:36]: Yep. That's a great point, and hopefully, the listener doesn't feel like we're bouncing around. It made me think of something too. Yeah. Trends are important. I have had this brought up though. I've I've referenced at sea level, this is true when I still go back home to North Dakota, I live in Flagstaff now. I'm typically running low seven pace for easy runs, and I've been doing that for fifteen years.

Coach Ruiari [00:55:02]: But I used to not even be able to, you know, complete a marathon. I think my first marathon was maybe just under two forty. And then I I'm now, you know, at my peak I was around two twenty. Yet my easy run paces were the same through all those years. But I was definitely I'm way more complete athlete, so much stronger. And I'm doing ultras here in Flagstaff and going up mountains. But what's changing is, you know, my heart rate might be still in that, you know, one thirty to one forty range, below seven pace easy days. But I'm doing that while handling way more robust workouts.

Coach Ruiari [00:55:41]: Just monster workouts, you know hill repeats, marathon tempo work, racing a lot more often, recovering so much better after a race, things like that. So you can't just look at one number without referencing other things. So totally okay to like never have your easy pace really improve. So that's why before I did say I'm I'm really only concerned are the workouts getting better and the races. There is, of course, a point where as aging comes into play, that might not be the case. But that's a a different story, and you can reframe that with age adjusted performances and whatnot. But,

Cory Nagler [00:56:24]: yeah. There's a common saying the proof is in the pudding. My my perception is, like, if you're racing well, who cares if your pace and your tempo sessions or your heart rate on your easy runs is off?

Coach Ruiari [00:56:35]: Exactly. Yeah. Alright. I Yeah. People aren't asking for the most part. They're like, oh, yeah. You've ramped us. What was your time? What's your maritime time? Oh, yeah.

Coach Ruiari [00:56:45]: But what do you do for your easy runs? No. It's like process. They care about the result, what you're doing. At the same time, I I don't think everyone should be motivated by a time. Maybe you're just having fun out there running. I highly encourage that too.

Cory Nagler [00:57:02]: Yeah. For sure. And I think, you know, if if your goal is just to have fun in the sport, then to me, like, who cares about any of these metrics, really? Like, the only thing that matters is whether you're having fun.

Coach Ruiari [00:57:11]: Then you really shouldn't be stressed. Yeah. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:57:13]: So yeah. Any any other thoughts on, on data? I know we've touched on a lot, but I think my my personal takeaway from this is look more at the bigger picture and focus on the things that really matter, which to me personally is the races.

Coach Ruiari [00:57:28]: Yeah. I agree. Big picture, don't get stressed and bogged down in the day to day stats if you're generally going where you want with your fitness and racing goals.

Cory Nagler [00:57:39]: I like it. Alright. Let's, to finish off Rory, what's what's your big picture? What's coming up on the docket?

Coach Ruiari [00:57:46]: Like I referenced, this is a case where I don't have a concrete race goal. I don't quite know when I can get back to race situation. I am gonna sign up for race though, but, I've already made a deal with my physical therapist that it is a long run. And, it's not always easy for runners to to hold themselves back in a race situation, but I'm just so happy to be running again. I swear I'm gonna listen. I'm not even gonna wear my race shoes. It's a 15 k race in Fountain Hills down in the Phoenix area. It's pretty hilly, so I'm just gonna maybe even skimp on my warm up just so that I have to warm up in the early part of the race and not get tempted to go too quick.

Cory Nagler [00:58:32]: I love it.

Coach Ruiari [00:58:33]: That's coming up in March. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:58:34]: Will this be your first race in, what, about a year?

Coach Ruiari [00:58:39]: Yeah. Again, I use that term very loosely. I'm just getting a little, not bored, but just running by myself, you know, on long runs because I don't really want to get pulled along by anyone's paces. It's getting a little old so at least being on the starting line with people will be more exciting. I don't know. Maybe I'll press on the gas a little bit in the final miles, but I'm definitely not. I have a previous time there. I'm not even thinking about what that time was, and no comparison.

Coach Ruiari [00:59:07]: Just getting used to, yeah, just having that foot feel stronger, and we'll see. Maybe the the end of the year, I'll I'll have a a concrete race.

Cory Nagler [00:59:17]: That's awesome. I'm excited for you.

Coach Ruiari [00:59:20]: Thanks, man. What about you? Just so the listeners know.

Cory Nagler [00:59:24]: Yeah. I've got a little bit of a trip coming, so probably won't get in so much training. But, I have, dental Important. It it is important, but I've done a little poor planning where I've got a half marathon the day after my flight gets back and I'm getting in late at night. So that'll be interesting.

Coach Ruiari [00:59:43]: That's a workout. Right?

Cory Nagler [00:59:46]: Yeah. You know what? I'm I'm telling myself I'm racing it, but it might be a bit of a grind.

Coach Ruiari [00:59:52]: Never know. Sometimes the the rest off can be can really help, and you may just feel supercharged, ready to go because you actually took time off.

Cory Nagler [01:00:02]: Maybe. That's what I'm basing on.

Coach Ruiari [01:00:04]: Yeah.

Cory Nagler [01:00:05]: Yeah. But I I I think a half marathon in in early March is when this will be. You never know what kind of snow or conditions you'll get. So time time is to a certain extent irrelevant.

Coach Ruiari [01:00:16]: Right on. Hope it goes well and you enjoy the vacation. But not a vacation from the podcast. Everyone will still get their normal podcast schedule.

Cory Nagler [01:00:26]: Definitely. Yeah. We're we're keeping it to weekly podcast. Definitely delivering content. I'd be lying if I said I'm not prerecording a couple episodes to make sure we get them in. But, you know, runs are happening. We gotta keep the content flowing.

Coach Ruiari [01:00:39]: We appreciate what you do. That's dedication.

Cory Nagler [01:00:42]: Appreciate you, Rory. Thanks for joining me. Thanks, Corey. Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at Corey underscore Nagler or through Strava by searching Corey Nagler. And please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast.

Cory Nagler [01:01:23]: Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, and consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.net/podcast. I'll see you on the next show, but until then, happy running, everyone.