Splitting Your Long Run, Marathon Strength Work, Heart Rate Zones in the Heat and More Listener Questions Answered

Finn Melanson [00:00:09]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn Malanson, and this is the run to the top podcast.

Finn Melanson [00:00:15]: Podcast dedicated to making you a better runner each and every episode. We are created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Today, we're back with more listener questions. But this time, we're switching up the format and introducing one of the newest members of our team, Rory Nagler. Corey is coming on board as our podcast showrunner. And today, he and coach Jeff are gonna answer the questions you've submitted to us over voice mail. and through our social media channels. Along the way, Coach Jeff is gonna introduce you into who Corey is and what exactly his role at Runners Connect will be. They're gonna cover topics such as whether you can still get the benefits from a long run or workout if you have to split it up, how to adapt heart rate zones for the heat, If strength training is as beneficial for marathon performance as it is for shorter events like the 5 k and a few more. If you have questions you'd like our coaches to answer on the podcast, you can head to runners connect dotnet forward slash daily and submit them to us or send them to us on any of our social channels. That said, let's hand it over to Corey and coach Jeff. Before we get into our conversation, I wanna talk to you about your skin. Running in the summer sun is definitely a skin and health hazard, which is why we love Tannry outdoor sunscreen. It's made specifically for runners and it doesn't feel greasy or burn your eyes when you sweat. I'll tell you more about them and how you can save 15% later in the episode. Countless research studies have shown that pillow selection can have a dramatic impact on sleep quality. Lagoon specializes in making pillows designed to specifically for runners and athletes to help them optimize their sleep and recovery. We'll talk more about the specific benefits later in the episode but you can learn more at lagoonsleep.comforward/top and get a 15% discount.

Cory Nagler [00:02:22]: Thank you for the intro, Finn. I'm very excited to be with the RC audience today. As Finn mentioned, My name is Corey Nagler, and I'm the new showrunner here at the run to the top podcast. So what does that mean? Well, that means I'll be leading our Friday podcast episodes and helping you learn from our amazing coaching staff here at Runners Connect. We'll be doing episodes on over and under rated training elements, Talking about myths, many runners believe and hosting coaching panels in question and answer sessions from you, our audience. As Fin mentioned, today is a q and a episode with Coach Jeff and we're going to answer your questions on everything from heart rate training to marathon strength work and more. We're along the way, you're gonna get to know a little bit more about me as well. So let's get started with our first question from Derek. Here it goes. I've been running for about 2 years, but this fall I signed up for my first marathon. Do you think it's better to weekly mileage throughout the week by running more days. For example, 6 days per week as opposed to 5 or 6, or is it better to try to hit my mileage in 4 or 5 days? and have 2 to 3 days completely off?

Jeff Gaudette [00:03:30]: Well, yeah. So that's a good question. I think a lot of people have this question and I actually have maybe probably a different view than most would think or maybe most coaches might have, but I'm a bigger believer in spreading your mileage out throughout the week and taking less days off than rather than running 3 days a week and having 4 days off. And the reason I personally believe that is One, it makes every day that you're running, obviously reduces the total volume. So let's say you wanted to hit 20 or let's say you want to hit thirty miles per week. to do that in 5 days, you know, you're running about six miles per day. If you wanted to do that in, let's say, 3 days, obviously, you gotta try to make that ten miles per day. So I always find that trying to do that over an extended period of time or throughout the week a little bit easier overall on the body. But I think the premise behind that and, obviously, I think one of the big things to consider with that is that you need to make sure that you're taking your recovery day slow. So I think where runners have troubles with this is they try to run their easy days too fast and they're not actually recovering. I'm of the belief that if you're running easy enough, that can be a a complete recovery process for the body. So you're you're allowing your legs to move which is getting blood flow, it's getting the nutrients to the muscles. And if you're going easy enough, you're not doing a lot of damage. But again, the problem is some runners will try to run 5, 6 days per week, but they're just running too hard. and kind of doing more damage every day rather than actually truly truly recovering. So that's my that's my little quick take on it. I'd like to hear what your your thoughts are, Corey.

Cory Nagler [00:05:05]: For sure. Yeah. And I think a lot of this does come down to personal preference and how you react as a runner. For me, I I just love having that frequency and maybe not beating up the body as much with the longer run. So that's a personal preference, but you can definitely take complete rest. days if you find that that helps you to recover better because that really is the the core idea is you wanna be making sure that you're giving yourself time to recover. I think there is some other considerations in terms of your training goals. Like, for example, if you're training for a marathon, you probably wanna build in that long run and make sure that you're not cutting that too short. But otherwise, I think a lot of it just comes down to what's gonna leave you feeling fresh for those workout days.

Jeff Gaudette [00:05:45]: Yeah. And I think the other thing too, you know, one factor that is outside of complete, like, complete physiology is just what someone's schedule looks like. So for some people doing 3 or 4 days a week is easier on their schedule because it gives them a complete day off to take care of family, work, etcetera, and they don't have they don't finding time to run is obviously is sometimes a bigger issue than injuries recovery, that kind of stuff. So, obviously, in that case, you know, training is designed, it should be designed to fit around your lifestyle. And so if if it's more of a lifestyle choice, then that's totally fine as well. It's not that there's one that's better than the other necessarily. It's just a matter of how you what's gonna make best make better sense for your lifestyle and for your training. And and then I guess, you know, like, since we're kinda introducing you Corey, you know, Derek mentioned that he's a relatively new runner, so Let's give us a give our audience here a little bit of background into your running career and how you got started and kind of what you're up to now.

Cory Nagler [00:06:42]: For sure, happy to chat about my own running, though. I definitely would not consider myself a career runner or pro runner by any stretch of the imagination. I really got into it young, you know, just with primary school, cross country, and and track, and really had a lot of fun in that group environment. And -- went on with some junior development programs in the university near me. So UFT, I'm up in Toronto and Canada. These days, though, I have just really gotten into the the road stuff. Find it really resonates with me and gives you a lot of flexibility to pick your own goals, so I'm more focused on kind of a lot of 5 k up to the marathon work and and really enjoying that at the moment.

Jeff Gaudette [00:07:22]: Yeah. So what's your favorite race distance right now?

Cory Nagler [00:07:25]: Oh, that's tough. I think that, you know, they they each have their own merits, but for me, the marathon really just has a special place in my heart. It's just kind of a a unique challenge you don't really get from the shorter distances.

Jeff Gaudette [00:07:37]: Totally true. It's it's an ex it's more of an experience both the training and I mean, the race itself you know, you go to a 5 k. It's kind of it's there. It's over. Whereas the marathon, it's like this whole experience for the weekend and, you know, there's so much build up to it. So Are you doing anything in the fall late summer? Do you have any big goal rates coming up?

Cory Nagler [00:07:54]: Yeah. I do, actually. I've got a lot of shorter five k ten k's over the summer, my main goal is the Amsterdam marathon in the fall, so really excited to kinda build up for that.

Jeff Gaudette [00:08:05]: Yeah. That's pretty cool getting into some travel as well. If that and he has another nice thing about marathons it kinda gets you a chance to travel a little bit sometimes and experience new places. So -- Definitely. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:08:15]: Okay. Our next question is, Question about training by heart rate. And our listener asks, if I usually run-in zone 2, should I still do that on really hot summer days or should I run by feels easy.

Jeff Gaudette [00:08:30]: Yeah. So we get this question a lot, not only just about heart rate, but also adapting training to the summer heat. So I'm a I'll first say that I am not a big believer in heart rate training and I'm not saying that everybody has to be or that I'm completely right or I'm dogmatic about it, I just feel like there's so there's a lot of issue there's a lot of issues and modifications that you need to make when it comes to heart rate training. And so I'm just personally not a big fan of it. That said, answering this question specifically, Yes. I think when you're talking about dealing with the heat, you need to adjust to dealing with the heat. And I think sometimes runners in the summer, especially newer runners, don't understand just how much they need to modify their training for the heat. Obviously, one, it's gonna slow down your training efforts or training paces just because it's hot. And then second, what I think a lot of runners don't realize is that the accumulated fatigue that you get when you're training in the heat all the time really adds up. And a lot of that just comes down to the fact that your body isn't able to cover as efficiently as it is when the temperatures are moderate or cool. And the reason for that is your body has to expend energy in order to keep yourself cool. So it has to cool the blood. It has to send blood to the body to keep it cool. And so there's a lot that it needs to do. There's a lot of stress even if you're just sitting outside and it's hot or walking to and from your car and it's hot, or you're getting your car and it's hot for the 1st 30 minutes before the AC kicks in. All of those things require your body to expend a lot of energy in order just to keep yourself cool. And so what happens is that there's a a buildup over time of the cumulative Teague that normally isn't there when you're training under optimal conditions or just in general, it's cool outside, etcetera. So that, I think, fools a lot of runners where even if they are able to run a couple of their sessions at the right paces or feel comfortable, what oftentimes will happen is that a week, 2, 3 weeks into the summer, they'll find that they're getting overtrained, getting really, really tired, or more tired than they normally are at training at the same volumes and intensities. so they kinda need to keep that in mind. So I guess circling back to the original question, if you usually run-in zone 2, then I would say in in talking about the summer heat, I would in a sense almost did chart rate generally or or knock yourself back or sorry. Let me let me say it this way. You should stay in zone 2, but your your pace for zone 2 is gonna be significantly slower. So it's okay to stay in zone 2. I would probably stay in the lower range of zone 2, but you stay in zone 2, but just realize that your pace is gonna be any slower. That's how I would approach it because that's how I like to I prefer to assign things based on pace. And so the way we do it is at least with our training plans is we adjust the the training times for or the train paces for the specific temperatures and humidity. there's a formula that you can use. We'll link it up in the show notes in this podcast. It's a cool little calculator that you can just put in the humidity, the temperature, and it'll kind of tell you how to adjust your paces, whether it's temple runs, easy runs, that kind of thing. But that's the way I like to do it. And for me, it's a little bit more of a concrete look at, you know, what how your training places might change. But when in this case of heart rate, I would just stay in zone 2, but realize that you're gonna slow down completely. So

Cory Nagler [00:11:49]: Your thoughts have you did you have you done a lot of heart rate training or what's your what are your thoughts on this? Yeah. It's funny you ask. I haven't done a lot of training in heart rate zones personally, I think part of that is because I prefer kinda going off of pace and effort. I think it's easier to track, but I think the other piece of it is because Heart rate is so variable, both in terms of how effort translates to your heart rate, such as the the heat is actually, as you said, gonna kinda shift those zones. But then also even just tracking it, I think a lot of you probably have different optical sensors on your GPS watches that'll give you reading, but those tend not to be very accurate. So I think for me at the end of the day, the important thing is that you're really getting the proper benefit out of your easy runs, which is really to kind of build up that efficiency and get in the run-in a way that's gonna help you recover and be ready for the next day and not burn yourself out, which can be hard to do when it's really hot outside. So I think for me, the the main thing whether it's exactly what your training zones usually are or not is really just to make sure that you're you're comfortable that you're not beating yourself up to the point where you're not gonna be able to run the next day. And then maybe this isn't quite as directly related to pace, but I think you definitely wanna make sure that your hydrating and fueling appropriately for the conditions because that is gonna impact your ability to recover from those those runs.

Jeff Gaudette [00:13:12]: Yeah. Absolutely. So for those that haven't heard, I think the beginning of this month, so I think it was the June 2nd episode, we did a whole podcast on training in the heat all of the factors that go into it. So definitely check that out in the past. I mean, I'm gonna flip this one on your Corey a little bit. You mentioned that you're from Canada, So let me ask you, do you think it's more difficult to train the summer or in the winter? because, obviously, you know, winter brings its own challenges as well.

Cory Nagler [00:13:38]: yeah, definitely challenges to training with both. I think, personally, I find it more difficult to train in the winter time. And the reason that I feel that way is that it's really hard to get around all the snow and ice, let alone the cold. So, you know, if you're trying to get in your run to find proper footing can be especially difficult, let alone on days when there's a massive blizzard. I think, you know, we had a day earlier last year when I was in a marathon block and we got centimeters in one day, and it was supposed to get in a decent long run from marathon training. So there there's only so much you can do if your feet can't even touch the ground. Also, you know, if it gets so cool to the point where frostbite is a serious issue, I've had on multiple occasions to have to wear multiple gloves or wear gloves under your mittens to cover it up. I will caveat the fact that it was recently in Texas for a race earlier in this year in that different kind of heat and humidity. So your preference may may shift a little depending on where you're running.

Jeff Gaudette [00:14:35]: Yeah. Totally. You know what's funny is I'm the complete opposite. I hate training in the heat and racing in the heat. And I grew up in Maine, so, you know, pretty much Canada, but United States to Canada. And You know, it's funny, but you're right that there's a lot of challenges that come to running in the winter, but I feel like I would just rather do those. And I always felt like a badass if I was training in the winter, you know, like Rocky 4, you know, kind of thing. Whereas the summer, I just felt like I was suffering. You know? So I never really I never really liked it that much.

Cory Nagler [00:15:04]: Yeah. It's hard and you you can only take off so many layers. You can always add more in in the wintertime.

Jeff Gaudette [00:15:10]: Exactly. Yeah. But everybody's different too. You know? I, you know, I I'm probably one personally that just doesn't respond well to the heat, but there's a lot of runners that you know, you look at elite runners, like, Galen Rupp is 1. Like, that runs a mate. Like, when it's hot and humid, like, he performs exceptionally. And so, you know, there are just some runners that that's gonna be the way that they perform. And then like, using Game of Roth an example, he does not usually run well on the cold because he has asthma. And so, you know, it's just sometimes it just comes down to your biological differences and things that you have. So, yeah, just a interesting question. Mhmm.

Cory Nagler [00:15:43]: For sure. Yeah. The next question we're going to address comes in as yesterday, I plan to run my long run of 8 miles. Due to the relentless heat, I stopped at 6 and did two miles later in the afternoon when the temperature dropped. My question is, did I lose the benefit of a long run by doing this?

Jeff Gaudette [00:16:01]: So this is a good question. So it kinda is a little bit multifaceted, and let me say by if you wanted to look at it, like, exactly from a physiological purely physiologic perspective, then I would say, yes. You probably lost some of the benefits of doing the long run. And because the reason for that is When we look at the long run and the physiological benefits that we're looking to get, we're looking at building mitochondria, improving efficiency, you know, all the all the physiological characteristics that go into a long run. Those all happen because you're the distance that you're running or the time that you're running, is longer and longer. So those aerobic developments happen later in the in the run. When you stop and then come back later in the day, you're basically you're you're kinda starting back at level 0 or level 1 in terms of those aerobic developments getting to that to that point. So from a purely physiological perspective, kinda, yes, you've probably lost most of the benefits of the long run. Or I should say lost the benefits, but it's not as a effective as it would have been had you done it all at once. That said, there are some benefits to just putting in the miles itself. So It it's depending where you are in your training. So if you're somebody that's a newer runner or just maybe less experienced, than just getting in the volume, the overall total volume for the week is still helpful. So, you know, you may look look at it like, okay, I'm losing know, this is just a theoretical number, but I'm losing theoretically 30 to 40% of the benefits of the aerobic benefits of the long run by splitting up but I'm getting back 10 to 20 percent by completing the full distance and getting that weekly volume in even though it was in two runs over the day. So that's how I look at it. It you know, if you look at it bluntly physiologically, yeah, probably not as definitely not as beneficial and you lost some benefits there. But is not a complete wash. That's kind of why I look at it.

Cory Nagler [00:17:53]: Yeah. No. I I think that's completely true is that you're you're not really building up the mitochondria in the same way, but there's other benefits you get from that. I think sometimes it can be helpful, especially when you're you're under the rest of the heat and you're you're you're having a really tough go when it can affect you is that you're actually getting some benefit off of that. At the end of the day, your body doesn't know the the difference stress is stress. So, you know, if you're working hard in the heat, you probably are getting some kind of other training stimulus off of that. The other thing is it's it's really important to kinda keep in mind what are your goals and kinda look at your training as a whole and not just the singular run. yes, maybe you didn't get the full benefit of that one long run. But if your body's maybe not as beat up afterwards, you know, maybe because of that, you're recovered enough that you can add another rep or 2 in your next workout or go a little longer or maybe add another couple miles the next week because of that. So I think At the end of the day, even if maybe you're not getting that full benefit, it it's not necessarily hurting you and could be the right call depending on what what the conditions demand.

Jeff Gaudette [00:18:55]: Yeah. That's those are fantastic points. I think the big thing too yeah. Like you said, there's no no one workout is gonna make or break an entire training cycle. is the reason that you trained for 12, 15, 16, 18, 20 weeks is that it's the combination all of those workouts together that are gonna make you fit on race day. And so yeah, you missed one long run, not that big of a deal. And I also like that you mentioned about the fact that when you when you look at the workout, it there's no point if going eight miles in your case, in this case, going six to eight miles if it's gonna be an absolute slog. you know, if you're gonna be basically walking or, you know, just so miserable that it's there's really there's no benefit to that either. If you're just miserable walking or maybe you in this case, maybe you thought the heat, maybe you're, like, super tired or something and your form starts to break down. And you're really just kind of slugging through it. In that case, there's really there's not a lot of benefit there. So there's you're you need to weigh that, like, okay. Am I losing the benefits of the workout, but what damage may I be doing or know, how difficult is this really being on me, that kind of thing. So those are great points on your end. Totally. And I I think in that calculus, you also wanna consider what are your goals and where are you training cycle, you know.

Cory Nagler [00:20:07]: If you're in the middle of your marathon block and this is your key long run, maybe it's worth beating up your body a little bit if you're gonna have a taper or recovery period right after versus if you're just kinda getting started and you're not gonna do anything longer than a than a 10 k, probably better to make sure that you're hourly recover and that you can keep on rolling with training and really beating yourself up in the heat.

Jeff Gaudette [00:20:29]: Yeah. Absolutely. Great great points.

Cory Nagler [00:20:31]: Well, so the next question we have coming in is I've seen a lot of info on how strength training can improve performance and things like VO 2 max efficiency, etcetera. But what about the marathon where v o two max isn't as important? Is strength work still beneficial?

Jeff Gaudette [00:20:48]: Oh, this is a good one. So I'm gonna obviously say, absolutely, if if for those that know or that have been fans of Owners Connect for a long time, you know, that I'm a huge fan of strength training and believe it's a key key element to performance and staying healthy. And I like the way this question is worded because you are right. Most of the studies that come with strength training when it comes to athletic performance, usually focus on, like, VO 2 max and things that we can really measure, you know, improving running economy, those things. And, yes, when we talk about the specifics of the marathon and then we talk about the specific of strength training, those don't always seem to seem to align, like, improving your view to max probably isn't gonna have, like, a huge impact on your direct marathon performance. That said, I think the thing with strength training when it comes to marathon training is is really actually about injury prevention. So it's not so much about direct performance improvements. It's about the fact that we can use strength training as a way to allow you to train harder and to do more more volume, more marathon specific work, those types of things so your body can handle a greater training load. And one of the easiest ways to train your body to be able to handle more is to include strength training. So, like, when I look at the the strength training the strength training that we assign for marathon runners, so we look at strength training as a comprehensive thing. So depending on what distance you're training for, depending on what's what your experience level is, that kind of thing. But so let's say that you're coming off if you're going it if you haven't run that's going into marathon training. So when we assign them their training, it's gonna be their strength work. It's gonna be mostly injury prevention work. And, again, the reason for that is the the more that we can do injury prevention work that we can do, the greater the chances are that we're gonna, 1, get through the training cycle healthy, which is critical and a huge part or a huge challenge that a lot of marathoners face is just getting through the entire training self healthy. And 2, it's gonna allow you to do more. So do more volume, do more long run longer run long runs, greater workouts, that type of thing. So that's how I look where strength training fits into to marathon training when it really comes down to it.

Cory Nagler [00:22:58]: Yeah. Couldn't agree more. I think the injury prevention piece is is key. There's a lot of a lot of benefits that come from training, whatever your distance. I do wanna circle back just on the VO 2 max piece. Ultimately, that's a measure of kind of your aerobic output, so strength training is maybe not going to directly benefit you on this piece. But for the marathon where you're really beating up your body and putting in the miles, you wanna make sure that you have the strength to kind of keep up with that. And, ultimately, that strength work gonna look a lot of different depending on what you're training for. You really wanna beat up build up a lot of speed and power if you're doing the sprints, whereas for The marathon, you're more so looking for those kind of efficiency gains and ultimately kind of your your strength endurance, if you will. There's also other difficulties in that you might not see the benefits right away because it's more on the injury prevention piece, so it's easy to convince yourself when you're putting in all those miles and really pressed for time. It's just that much easier to skip. But at the end of the day, as you said, if it if it keeps you healthy and gets you the start line in one piece, then it's gonna be really beneficial.

Jeff Gaudette [00:24:06]: Yeah. And, you know, it's funny. I just saw was it last week or the week before and we put this I this in the newsletter. But there was a really interesting study that some researchers did on marathon runners, and they actually looked at the intrinsic foot muscles. So the extrinsic and intrinsic, all the little muscles in the foot, and they examined what they looked like before the run and then or before a marathon and then after the marathon itself. like the race itself. And what was really interesting is they saw that the majority of the participants saw a a complete change in their foot mechanics after the race, and it was because a lot of those intrinsic foot muscles became so tired that their arches actually dropped. And thought I found that really interesting. And the actually, the researchers surmise that one thing that marathon runner should consider post post both post run post marathon and before is including foot strength work into their running routines because that could help alleviate that problem And the reason and the problem the problem comes with that is usually if you're changing your foot mechanics late in a race, that's gonna lead to bigger problems potentially down the road, whether it be injury or performance. If your foot mechanics are changing, you're changing your running form. It's gonna change your gate. It's gonna change the muscles you're activating, how you're activating them. there's a big chain of of changes that happen with that. So I found that to be really interesting. So I think that's a good parallel to to this question where yeah, you may think doing foot strength work, you know, how is that gonna benefit me in the marathon? But if we look at how it could potentially prevent late race fatigue and breakdown, could be a big a big stepping stone there.

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Cory Nagler [00:28:47]: That's really interesting. So I haven't read that specific study, but I think it's not so common in training that you're gonna really get to that point where you're beating yourself up in your forms completely falling apart because, again, you wanna make sure that you're saving a little bit in the tank. Do you think that that marathon specific strength work is is especially beneficial for those later stage in terms of maintaining your form.

Jeff Gaudette [00:29:09]: Yeah. Absolutely. So we actually just did a YouTube video on this. about a month ago. But, you know, when we I'm a big believer that the cramping that most people experience in the marathon is not a result of electrolyte or sodium or hydration issues, I believe it's a breakdown of of form. And the reason for that is when you what like like I just talked about, if your form starts to break down, so let's say that your your hamstring starts to get tired. Your hamstring is a is a big muscle. It's one of the primary muscles that that can generate power to the running stride. So if that gets tired later in the race, then some other muscle has to make up for the power that the hamstrings generate. So it could be the glue. A lot of times, what will happen is it'll be something like the calf. to it'll kind of try to propel you a little bit. You'll you'll try to try to take more power from the calf in order to propel yourself forward. And the calf isn't trained to do that. You haven't done that in training. You haven't trained your calf to take on that amount of load. And then because you are asking the calf to do that much more than it ever has before, that's when it'll cramp, that's when it'll break down on you, and that's you know, a lot of times why people runners will suffer from cramps even though they're hydrating properly, taking in the salts, electrolytes, that kind of thing. And so where that relates to strength training is in training, the the hard part is that you really can't simulate what you're gonna feel like or through what you're gonna feel like 22 at miles 22, 23, 24 of a marathon because you just can't build up that level of fatigue every day in training or even, like, often. so you have to figure out ways that you can simulate that type of fatigue in your body without actually having to put that training load on you. And so that's where I think something like strength training can come in where you can use strength training to cheap train those muscles to handle the load even though you're not putting it through 22 22 to 25 miles of running specific work. You know, you can still get in that strength work that can help prepare that muscle to be ready for when it's called upon if your form starts to break down. And then, obviously, strength work too can help prevent that breakdown if we can prevent that muscle the major muscles from getting tired in the first place and breaking down.

Cory Nagler [00:31:19]: For those runners who suffer from a lot of that cramping you alluded to, do you think there's a way to distinguish between whether it's a nutrition fueling problem versus strength training, or do you think you really just have to do all the right things in order to to prevent it?

Jeff Gaudette [00:31:33]: Yeah. Good question. So I think in the immediate, like, in the immediacy of it, I don't think there's really a good way. I would say that if you're but if you I would say the only way to look at it is if you feel like you went in and you were completely you did your hydration right, you took the electrolytes, you know, you you really had a good hydration plan and you still cramp, then I would say you're probably looking at some type of muscular issue or form breakdown. You know, if you feel like you didn't, then, you know, it could still be an electrolyte or hydration issue, but I find that I find that these days, that's usually not it's not as much as an issue as it used to be, like, the hydration electrolytes because you know, we're kind of marketed all the time with all kinds of different, you know, electrolyte products. So the the education out there is so much more. You know, back in the eighties nineties, maybe even in the 2000. There just wasn't really as much information about hydration and electrolytes as there is now. So way, way more runners went into these races not properly hydrating because we just didn't know. We didn't know the science behind it quite as well. Now we're I I think any even first time marathoner goes in and is, like, hyperconscious of what their hydration electrolyte levels are. So I would say that most runners don't fall into the problem having the problem with hydration. Most most are gonna be okay with that. But, I mean, there definitely happens. That's not say that it's 0% chance, but That's how I see it. It was a little harder a few decades ago. You couldn't just pop in a podcast if you're a first time marathoner and hear all about this. Exactly. Definitely. So I have actually a question for you to kind of flip this around. So for me, strength is one of the most important things that kind of I wish I knew when I was running professionally. So, again, I was running professionally in the early 2000. You know, the the research on strength running training was just kinda getting started. there really wasn't a lot out there, especially when it came down to, like, what was effective. You know, we kind of were going based off, like, body built you know, your traditional body building stuff. So, you know, if you could go back and tell yourself one thing or or go back to your younger self to improve like, what would it be? Like, what would be the thing that you'd say? Like, oh, if you really focus on this a lot more, you're gonna have a lot more success or just be, you know, a lot happier, trained healthier, that kind of thing.

Cory Nagler [00:33:45]: I think the strength piece definitely would be up there. Younger high school, me, definitely, did not do enough an Frankfurt because I just wanted to spend all my time running. But I I think, really, if I could choose one thing, it would really be to focus as much on the mental recovery as the as the physical piece. I think it's it's such an underrated part of training. And oftentimes, you know, your your body might feel ready to go, especially, like, after a marathon build. I think a few days out, you know, you you might feel good regardless of whether or not your body is actually ready to go. But a lot of the time, when you're putting in that much effort in dealing with a lot of other life stresses, it it really gets to you and it can be hard to jump in the next training cycle. And I think when I was in in high school, you're you're dealing with your studies and the stress of applied universities at the same time as you're you're training it. It takes a lot out of you, and you you really kinda kinda need that rest. So I I think it would just do make sure that I kinda give myself the proper rest in in all respects.

Jeff Gaudette [00:34:43]: No. That's a great that's a great point. Recovery is key, and you're right. The mental side of things is not something we about a lot when it comes to recovery. Is that a great point?

Cory Nagler [00:34:52]: Sure. Thank you. Our next question is you talk a lot about the importance of aerobic threshold when training for the marathon. Does this mean our long run should be mostly at aerobic threshold pace?

Jeff Gaudette [00:35:03]: Oh, so good question. And this is something I think a lot of renters struggle with. So let let me first define aerobic threshold. So a aerobic threshold in my mind is a point at which you stop relying on the aerobic system as the primary system. And the reason that this is so important in the marathon is it's really that crisscross between the optimal ratio of burning fat to carbohydrate. So if you're running aerobically, you're gonna be able to burn mostly fat as your fuel source. That's because fat isn't an is not an efficient field source, and so our body can only really utilize it when we're running on the slower end of things. Once we get past our aerobic threshold, then we start relying on carbohydrates more and more to provide the fuel that we need to rhyme at or run faster and faster. So that's why I consider it so important in Marathon training because if you the the faster that you can get your threshold or that that ratio between fat carbohydrate burning, the faster you're gonna be able to right race the marathon and the less you're gonna have a chance of bonking or hitting the wall, that kind of thing. So that's a aerobic threshold defined in my marathon. So that said, aerobic threshold training is super important in the marathon. The more that you can do it, the better you're gonna they're you know, the figure you're gonna get for the marathon specifically. The problem that a lot of runners, especially you know, newer marathoners have is that they wanna run their long runs at marathon pace. And there's two reasons for that. 1, is they believe, okay. Well, if I need to run the race at this pace, then I should do it in training, which meant you know, makes sense mentally but physiologically doesn't make a lot of sense, and I'll get to that in a second. And then second, you know, like we talked about, like I just talked about, aerobic we wanna train an aerobic threshold as long as we can. And because, you know, you may be able to do that for long long periods of time in during the long run, a lot of runners think that better. If they can just run their long runs at a robo threshold pace, it's gonna put more miles in their, you know, the weekly volume that are at robo threshold pace and they're gonna get back better faster. And the reason that these doesn't doesn't really work is that the aerobic threshold definitely is more tiring than easy runs. And so what we're training to do is to to improve your aerobic threshold each week so that on race day, you're able to run twenty six miles on merit on on race day for the for the marathon. you're not you shouldn't be able to do that in training. That's just too hard. It's it's just too much stress on the body. It's too hard of a workout. The problem then becomes you're not able to recover. So a lot of runners that do this will you know, I like to spread out mileage and workouts throughout the week. So theoretically, if you do the long run on Saturday, Sunday, then you would come back Tuesday or Wednesday with another type of temple run or or up tempo workout. And if you run your if you run your long run entirely in a perfect special pace, you're not gonna be recovered in time to come back on Tuesday or Wednesday to do a quality session. So I just don't think that it's something that's that's worth doing. And that that's the big part part part of it is that over time, you maybe, you know, you can do that a times in training, but over in terms of run your long runs at a road with threshold pace. But if you do that over and over and over, you're definitely gonna get yourself into a a into overtraining territory or potentially injured because you're just not recovering enough?

Cory Nagler [00:38:23]: Definitely. Yeah. And I think it's it's great for listeners to kind of have a sense of what a ropy threshold is and kind of how that fits into your training just to give kind of a a less technical definition that I use for myself having not not spent the the same amount of time diving into literature often like to think of kind of Laptic threshold or what we refer to is is tempo as being kind of a pace you can sustain for an hour and then aerobic threshold what our listener is referring to here is probably a pace that you can sustain for about 2 hours before you kind of get outside that zone. So I think the reason a lot of marathoners kind of gravitate to this pace is because it it falls rather close to your 2 marathon pace. Most of us are not running anywhere near 2 hours, but it's a lot closer than your and your VO 2 max or your lactic threshold is gonna be. That said, personally, my preference is generally to only really do long runs of that aerobic threshold later in the cycle and only for portions of the long run. Mhmm. And there's a lot of reasons for that. One of them is kinda what you pointed out that, you know, you you really can't run that twenty six point two miles in train an an aerobic threshold, it's just too difficult. And if you can do that, then you can probably go a lot faster than that on race day because your body should be beat up in the middle of training. So a lot of the time, what I'll do is I'll kind of run specific portions of my long run at a rubric threshold that come in, you kinda get some of that specificity of it, but you're not you're not putting your body through the same kind of stress as you get running the whole workout at that aerobic threshold pace. The the other thing that's that's worth pointing out is because a lot of people tend to correlate that aerobic threshold with their with their marathon pace is that at the end of the day, they're not the same. If you're not Kipcho gave, then your marathon pace probably isn't your aerobic threshold. And also Your marathon pace is not based on whatever arbitrary goal you set. Even if it is realistic, it's based on what's your fitness on the day. So really you wanna make sure that you're you're running those workouts based on kind of what is the right level of effort before you you get to that zone. which is really either something that's gonna come through experience or either wear something like a coach who can tell you what that right right persona is can be can be really helpful.

Jeff Gaudette [00:40:33]: Yeah. That's awesome. That's that's a fantastic breakdown. I really like the the 2 hours of running. I like that as a a good reference for people that may not know what their with their pace specifically is for a road of special. I like that pace that you can run for about 2 hours. That's a really good definition.

Cory Nagler [00:40:50]: Yeah. I've I've find it really helpful in my own training just as a kinda way to understand it just because it's it's hard when you're in the middle of a run to kinda visualize exactly what's happening in your system or knowing if you're burning a bad recovery versus, you know, it's it's easy to think to yourself if you're kinda say 10 minutes into a run well, could I sustain this pace for another hour 50? And if if you're going closer VO2max or 5 k pace, the answer's probably no. Yeah. Definitely. The last question we're going to address today is I have previously fallen into the trap of not taking my easy runs easy and just trying to go full tilt all the time. I'm trying to rectify that this time around. But when I have looked at how much effort to put in for an easy, steady, tempo, and fast run, I found that my heart rate for an easy run should be around 60% maximum which for me, and our listener calls out that they are thirty nine years old, would be a 107 beats per minute. I have tried to do that but it is ridiculous. Even when I am running so slowly that I would be walking faster, my heart rate is around a 150 beats per minute. I've tried using perceived effort, but these are mostly based on conversational pace, and I don't have a feel for how to apply it. Are there any other ways that you would recommend structuring different pace runs for training that seem more practical and reasonable, or let me know if I'm doing something wrong in calculating heart rate zones.

Jeff Gaudette [00:42:16]: Oh, so great question. Another heart rate 1. So I'll harken back to my first answer to the question. I am not a big believer in heart rate training, and this is actually a really good example of why. So I'm not sure where the listener here saw that they should be running about their easy run should be about 60% of maximum. That's I'm not aware that that's a a a, like, a threshold. Typically speaking, like, if you're so when I look at heart rate zones, there's a lot of there's a couple of factors. It's not just age you should also factor in your resting heart rate as well. That'll give you a little bit more data. So, really, probably your, like, Easy run should be anywhere from a 135 to 145 beats per minute, I would say, I would guess. But I think this gets back to the problem with heart rate training is that it's first, it's all based on formulas. And so, you know, unless you get unless you went the lab and got your heart your maximum heart rate actually tested, you don't know that that's your you know, we do a formula to calculate your maximum heart rate based off your age and your resting heart rate and that kind of But we don't know that that's actually true. It's a formula. So you could be higher, you could be lower, you know, but it's it's the average. It's a formula. So that's one part. Now we're setting up potentially setting up training paces based on a data point that isn't correct. So that's another reason that I don't love to do heart rate training. So that said, I don't think your paces are right for a heart rate. I would look for we do have the calculator. I'll link it up in the show notes. If you wanna look at you just add your a resting heart rate and it will give you some training zones for you. I would do that and just that at least gets you in the right zones. But to answer your question about other ways to structure different pace runs for training and stuff like that, Like, I personally am just a huge believer in using pace and using race distances. To me, it's the one of the more more accurate ways to do things. Now, obviously, nothing is a 100%. But, you know, I know you're putting just general labels on things, easy, steady, tempo, and fast, but I would look at what are you know, maybe take a 5 k that you've run, and then you can set your easy paces off your 5 k. You can set your steady paces off 5 k, tempos, fast runs, etcetera. So I would do that for anybody that even hasn't run a race yet unless you're, like, really just just starting out, And in that case, easy should just be, like, as easy as you can so that you're not breathing hard. That's how I would say that. But once you get past that point, and you're doing any types of races, then I would just use those race results and plug those into a calculator. So there's There's one in Runner's world. There's one in McMillan. I mean, if you just search search, like, running pace calculator, it'll spit out you know, you put in your 5 k time, and it'll spit out the time for So I would use those all the time. That's that's how I that's how we base all of our training at Runners Connect when we assign when we write custom schedules for people. is we look at their times. And the nice thing about, you know, when you have a coach doing it is that we look at Across the spectrum of their time. So know, if they have 5 k times, 10 k times, marathons, we can see there's different data points there. So we can say, okay. They're good at the marathon. Maybe not quite as good at the 5 k. so that can change the equation for, you know, what their training basis should be. But that said, we do all of our stuff based on on pace, and that's how I recommend people to do it. Again, then you can correlate efforts to paces, but I think if you get the paces down first, it gives you a concrete data point rather than trying to say, well, like you like the listener asked rather than saying, well, easy should be conversational. Steady should be just above conversational. Those are You know, those are a little bit harder for newer runners to kind of feel. And so when you have specific cases, it's a little bit easier to have that data point.

Cory Nagler [00:46:02]: Definitely. Yeah. I I think heart rate is is really hard to go off of just because it is -- so variable and so hard to measure precisely. And and even then within zones, you could read 5 different articles and get 5 different answers on exactly what those different zones are gonna be. So I tend to train exactly the way you just described. I think it's a lot easier to go off of off of different race paces and kind of correlate it out. But I do think that as begs a an interesting question. You mentioned kind of new runners, but for a lot of runners, maybe you're dealing with injury or maybe you had a long stretch of tough work. Maybe you haven't raced recently. So not everyone has a good gauge on what their current level of fitness is. I guess for runners like that, how can they maybe pick out what what some of those race paces are.

Jeff Gaudette [00:46:47]: Yeah. It's a good question. So I think the thing with I think the thing to remember is that even if you're building back and or you're not quite as fit as you were, like, let's say, the than your PR or, like, what race results should I use? I think that's the question you're getting at. We get that a lot, like, well, I don't have a race recently or things like that. You know, any races that you've run are it's still a data point. And, again, this is like when I was talking about when we write the custom schedules, it's still a data point, and that gives you data. So even if it was, like, the it was, like, the best reason for your life, but 6 months now, you would have to run 6 months for whatever reason, something like that. It's still a data point that gives you your potential. And so you can take that data point and then just adjust it based on where you think you're at. And I think the reason that it works is that you're not gonna be running the same volume, same workouts that you would be that you were doing when you ran that optimal race result. So you can still use those paces, but just you're gonna be running less volume and less less more less difficult workouts. So I think the paces are still gonna work out roughly and then you can always notch them down. And then I'll also say that there's always a range. Like so even when, like, we assign custom schedules, like, easy pace is a wider range, so usually it's about 45 seconds to a minute of range there in terms of what you can run that could still be considered easy aerobic. even tempo runs usually are a 10 to 15 second range to still be in this training zone that you wanna be in. So if you feel like okay, these are my training pieces when things are optimal and you're just kind of building back and starting out, then you can run at the lower end of those ranges. And I think usually most people are gonna be pretty good there. If you find that that's too difficult, then you can always adjust and and notch things backwards, but that's where I would start. So kind of build back build start building in your training. If you find that that's too hard or that the the effort you're putting in is harder than you think it should be, then you can always dial it back. But that's how I look at it. Take that range. If you're if you're not as fit as you were when you ran it optimally, run on the run on the slower range. And then for those runners who don't feel like they have a race result that is indicative of their fitness. So let's say the only race you've ran was in the summer and it was super hot, and you just didn't think things went well. I still think basing your training pieces off that race makes sense. And I went into this a little bit more in-depth in a previous podcast episode. But the the reason for that is when we look at the when we look at training thresholds like where we should be, Running slower on on generally is usually actually a little bit better than running faster. Actually, it's it's definitely better than running faster. And so even if you take that result and it's not optimal for you and the paces that you're running at may not be maybe a little bit slower than you are capable of or potential that you're potentially capable of, you're still gonna be getting a lot of training value from that. And the reason is that the thresholds on the slower end, so aerobic threshold, lactate threshold, those are more important and more more, yeah, more important for the rate distances that you'll be running than view to max or the faster ends of the thresholds. So running slower still provides a quite 90% of the benefits as it would be if you were kind of optimally or right at the edge of what your optimal training pace would be. So that's kinda why I look at it.

Cory Nagler [00:50:06]: I think that training range is is very helpful. I'm gonna just ask one more question on that just because I know a lot of lot of listeners probably right now are training for fall goals, whether that be anything from shorter road races all the way up to the the marathon or even even ultras. A lot of runners may have kind of an idea in mind of what times they wanna run and maybe wanna hit those in workouts or or run their workouts in a way that are kind of indicative of showing that they can run those times. If you are able to hit those paces in your workouts, is there a problem with that? Would you suggest that they maintain that if they can get that or do you think you really do have to stick to kind of that low end of the range?

Jeff Gaudette [00:50:46]: Yeah. So I think That that's you're right. That's the nice thing about having a range. But I think, yeah, if you're able to hit it, then that's good. You know, I think that shows that the training plan that you have is correct for you. I think the thing that a lot of runners mistake mistakenly believe is that, like, either the the workouts that they're doing should prove that they're ready to run whatever race that they wanna run, that kind of thing. And so that's not the case. The workouts are designed to help you get to that point. So usually, runners find it on the opposite end where they're not able to or let's let's say, for example, you went out and did, like, a smile tempo run and you would think to yourself or, like, an eight mile marathon pace run. And then at the end of that, you're tired. And then they would think, well, how am I supposed to do this for 26 you know, that's usually what we get. Like, I find the questions that we get in in motion connect. And the the reason for that is that we're not today is not a day to prove that you could run twenty six miles at whatever pace. Today is to build up a system so that you can get to that point. And so I think most I think runners should stay in that range whether to be running on the slower side or running on the faster side, you know, try to stay in that range because that's showing that things are progressing improving to where where you want them to be. So I think I I understood your question there, but maybe not. Maybe you can clarify it if not. Yeah. For sure. No. If am I if I'm understanding it right, what you're kinda getting at is, you know, ultimately, you wanna make sure that you're you're staying within a range that's gonna get you the right training stimulus, but then if you're really hitting those times, it might be a sign that your fitness is there so it can be okay to maybe bump those up a little. Is that right? Yeah. And I always you know, there's no fault to running tune up races. So I'm a big believer if if you really think that you're progressing faster than maybe you anticipated, etcetera, than to know to run a tune up race. And I always recommend people, you know, you can incorporate 22 up races into your schedule pretty easy depending on what race instance you're running. But, like, for example, if you're running a marathon, you can always run a 5 k and do that as part of either a longer workout So, like, race like, I tell people, like, one workout that I do with a lot of athletes is they'll race the 5 k and then they'll take a 5 to 10 minute rest and then run the course again then run it at marathon pace or maybe a little bit slower or something like that. So we're still getting in the volume of marathon training, but you got to race the 5 k so you got to see if there, you know, how fit you were, if your fitness is where you want it to be or ahead of where it should be. But then we you still got the volume. So there's different ways you can do you know, that to incorporate tune up races in, but there it's a good way to just double kinda check yourself. I would say you probably don't do a tune up race more than every 3 to 4 weeks. So every 4 to 6 weeks would be good for a tune up. Because even that, if you're racing every 2 to 3 weeks, you're just not gonna there's not enough time between to see, like, any real physiological changes that takes time. But every 4 to 6 weeks, you know, if you're really thinking that you're progressing faster than you should or or I shouldn't say faster than you should, then vesting than you planned, then, yeah, tune up braces are a great way to to get another data point for yourself.

Cory Nagler [00:53:49]: And it is 5 k kind of an optimal tune up race distance for anyone's training goals, or do you think you wanna modify that a little depending on where you're at in the cycle and what you're training for?

Jeff Gaudette [00:53:59]: Yeah. Good question. So I think know, if you're training for a marathon, a half marathon is gonna be a little bit more accurate in terms of where you're actually at. But that said, the disadvantage to a half marathon is have to build that in a little bit more carefully. So, you know, you can't run a half marathon every couple weeks. You know, you really have to you have to recover from a half marathon as well. So have to be a little bit more careful when you build in the longer races. So I say with the half marathon, if you're gonna do one as a fitness test, I'd say about 10 to 8 weeks before your goal race would be a good timing wise and no closer than 6. So 6 would be the cutoff, like anything closer than 6. not that you can't do it, but I I find that sometimes that can lead to a little bit too much fatigue or too much concentration on the half marathon and not necessarily on the marathon. So anywhere from 10 to 6 weeks and then but build it in, you gotta realize that that is a a hard workout. So you're probably gonna have to if you do the math half marathon on Sunday, you're probably gonna have to probably not do anything until Thursday or Friday next week at the latest. or I should say at the earliest to do another harder session because it's you just gotta make sure that you recover from that effort. But that's why I like 5 case because you can recover from a 5 k within a day or 2 and be ready to get right back into training. And I think there's there's easier ways to incorporate 5 k's into what your plan might be. rather than a half marathon, which is kind of the whole workout day itself.

Cory Nagler [00:55:22]: Definitely. Yeah. Those those half marathons are especially tough, not that a that a five k is easy, but it really kinda hurts you the next day or the next few days if you're racing all out for half marathon. I think that's great that really gives our listeners a a really good sense kind of how to structure their different types of training runs, any kind of final thoughts on maybe how to set those paces or how to decide what types of runs to do?

Jeff Gaudette [00:55:44]: No. I mean, I think I think at that point, you know, you're really talking about getting into the the meat and bones of a training schedule. You know? So We'll save that for maybe another q and a talking about training and that kind of stuff. But, yeah, this is this is a really good q and a. I like the questions that came through. Yeah. Pretty pretty excited. So, yeah, you did a great job as your first time as a host, Corey. This is pretty good. I I know I know I'm excited to have you guys have you on to help us out. And, hopefully, the listeners enjoy this episode and give you some good feedback. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Jeff. Yeah. I had a a really great time. Excited to be a part of the runners team and chat with some of your listeners on future Friday episodes, and I learned a lot today. So I I hope that everyone else did too. Yeah. So I think you'll be back. So I know next week, next Friday, coach Michael and coach Andy are gonna be gone with their coach chat. So I think you'll be here 714. Right? July 14th will be your next episode with us? Yeah. That's right. That's what I have scheduled right now. Awesome. Well, great. Thanks so much, Corey. I appreciate it. Awesome. Thank you so much, Jeff.

Finn Melanson [00:56:58]: Thanks for listening to the run to the top podcast. I'm host, Vin Malanson, as always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. Please consider can with me on instagram at wasatchfin and the rest of our team at Runners Connect. Also consider supporting our show for free with a rating on the Spotify and Apple castaways. And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with our guests, and premiere access to contests and giveaways, it's a scribe to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netback/podcast. Till next time, happy trading.