What you can learn from the training of a marathon world record holder

Jeff Gaudette [00:00:00]: Yeah. So I would say that most of the elites that I know, 80 to 90% of the elites that I know, don't take scheduled rest days. There are some that do, so there's probably about 20% that do always have a scheduled rest day every Sunday or whatever the day may be for them. But I would say the majority don't.

Cory Nagler [00:00:18]: That was our head coach, Jeff Gaudette, commenting on the men's marathon world record holder, Kelvin Kiptom, in his Reportedly not taking any scheduled rest days in preparation for his world record performance in Chicago. In this conversation, we take a closer look at the training of this incredible athlete To determine how he manages such impressive performances at the marathon and what non elite runners can learn from his success. Jeff has coached numerous athletes of all levels, from amateur all the way to pro, in addition to owning a pretty impressive 2/22 marathon PR. So he is no stranger to putting together a marathon training plan. This was a fun chat where we answer a ton of questions, including, What makes elite runners so good at their sport and could following their training make you a faster runner? How much mileage is ideal for maximizing marathon performance? Should you consider running more than 1 long run-in a week? What is the best type of training for runners competing at the marathon distance or longer? You need to take rest days. And if so, what is the ideal amount of rest? So let's get into it with what you can learn from a marathon world record holder. Hello, runners, and welcome to the run to the top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler.

Cory Nagler [00:01:41]: And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net,

Jeff Gaudette [00:01:52]: where you

Cory Nagler [00:01:52]: can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Alright. Coach Jeff, welcome back to the show.

Jeff Gaudette [00:02:03]: Thanks so much, Corey. Happy to be here, and happy to be chatting with you guys today.

Cory Nagler [00:02:07]: Great. Today's a super exciting topic because we're really talking about a really up and coming runner, but not just about what this runner has achieved, but What runners can learn from this to improve their own running? So that runner's Kelvin Kiptom. Jeff, Is this a name that, that you've talked about or heard talked about a lot in the running scene?

Jeff Gaudette [00:02:29]: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, for those that don't know, Kelvin Kiptum set the world record in the marathon in Chicago, and it kinda came out of nowhere for the most when when in terms of, like, running Things you know, he really hadn't been it wasn't like he was on the scene for a long time. So the big name in marathoning right now is, Eliud Kipchoge, who has been running at the highest levels for probably 5 or 10 years now, and was famous for the sub two marathon project, etcetera. And Kelvin Kiptum, really, nobody had really heard of this guy very much. And then, he came out of nowhere and ran 2 hours flat 35 seconds for the marathon in Chicago. And so definitely, amazing to see, and pretty interesting that he kinda came in for From a relative perspective, it came out of nowhere to to do that.

Cory Nagler [00:03:19]: And I I think for context on just how much he came out of nowhere, I I think his 1st ever marathon was a year before that world record or or maybe a year and a half. Is that about right?

Jeff Gaudette [00:03:30]: So yeah. So looking at From the best that I could find, it looks like he did run a 22,020 2022 was his 1st marathon. And obviously, he he ran he ran fantastic there, ran to a 153. So it's not like when we say he came out of nowhere, it's not like he Never ran anything before, and we'd have no results for them. It's more just with the dominance of, Eliud Kipchoge, like, Nobody really expect anybody to run faster than he has recently. And so it was a little bit of a surprise for him to come out of there and do that. So He does have results. The thing and the other thing about quote unquote coming out of nowhere is that he's pretty young.

Jeff Gaudette [00:04:06]: The thing with Kenyan athletes is Their birth certificates are often difficult to verify. They don't have quite as good records as we do in the United States. And so It's not we're not quite sure how old he is, but he claims to be born have been born in 1999. And so, you know, he's around 24, 25 years old. So that's super young, in the marathon world as well. So a lot of times, these athletes that are the marathoners that are running really, really elite times have been Training and putting up results on the track or in half marathons for a long time before they start setting the world stage in the marathon, and and Kelown Kipton seems to be a little bit of a different Character approach in that in that regard, and that he's super young and really has only been running the marathon for a couple years.

Cory Nagler [00:04:49]: He's a he's a different Beast, I'm actually a, a 99 baby myself, but certainly not a 2 hour marathoner. And I I don't think either of us on this chat are are 2 hour marathoners. So For those maybe with slightly more relatable times, how much insight do you do you gain from the training of the elites? Or or how much does it actually carry over?

Jeff Gaudette [00:05:10]: Yeah. So I think that's one of the things that, recreational runners misunderstand or I think don't appreciate Is that there's a lot that we can learn from elite athletes and elite runners even though their times are obviously out of this world and Not anywhere near what we can do. And and same and I've also said the same, like, their training volumes, and we'll get into depth depth into this, but their training volumes, their paces, etcetera, are Things that we really can't fathom, but there's a lot to learn. And the foundation for everything they do is stuff that we can learn from and implement in our own training and and learn from. So There there's a lot there that that we can get into and that you can learn from even though the results aren't really anything that we would be talking about or kind of even in the realm of of making happen.

Cory Nagler [00:05:57]: Yeah. And I I think that's really gonna be our topic today. So I wanna dive into this more over the course of the show is, obviously, most of us are not gonna hop in and do that exact same training as Kiptem, but but what are those lessons that can be learned? Before going to that, I know we touched on Kipchoge really being the the biggest name in the sport right now. It's looking like for the Paris Olympics over the summer, they're actually gonna square off. You have any predictions over, who comes out on top or or maybe a a dark horse, somebody else entirely?

Jeff Gaudette [00:06:25]: Yeah. So I'm as proven by my Boston podcast episode, if everybody listened to that, my my predictions aren't always the greatest, but, I'd I'd go with Kipchoge, Mostly for experience. The marathon, especially when it comes to the Olympics, with the Chicago's, the London's, those marathons is for the elites. There there's a very much time trial marathons where you kind of just get behind the Pacers and settle in and just try to run as hard as you can. And if you fall off, you fall off, it's that they're just gunning for the world record slash best as they can run. Whereas the Olympics tends to be a little bit more tactical and tactics usually, are One by or tactical races are usually won by people that have more experience. So I'll go with Kipchoge on that one.

Cory Nagler [00:07:09]: I think I think that's a good prediction. I actually think it's a dark horse prediction. I might go for Tola after a pretty dominant victory at New York City. But Yeah. That's

Jeff Gaudette [00:07:19]: a good choice.

Cory Nagler [00:07:20]: But I I kinda think Kipton, definitely has the potential to to bring bring up gold. I think whenever you're running 2 hours flat, you're certainly dangerous.

Jeff Gaudette [00:07:30]: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of leeway there for you know, especially if you consider if maybe they're running 205, 204 pace, something like that, which still is unbelievably fast. But for those guys, you know, that means there's a lot that if if you're in a if you've run a 2 flat marathon, that means you're in shape and can do some lethal things and and surges and stuff like that. So it'll be interesting to see. I'm I'm I'm certainly looking forward to the Olympics and all the distance events for sure.

Cory Nagler [00:07:56]: Yeah. No. I'm I'm excited for all of it. And I think during the Olympics, I even get into the non running events, the the swimming, the the table tennis. All the stuff I don't normally watch are are fantastic Take 2. But, again, we're here to chat running, so let's get back to Kiptom's training. And I wanna kind of give a taste of what some of that training is and get your thoughts on it, Jeff. I'll start with what I think is really the meat and potatoes of the marathon training block, which is the overall mileage.

Cory Nagler [00:08:24]: So, obviously, I have not personally chatted with Kelvin Kiptom, but there's plenty of reports online of his training that have come from interviews with his coaches. And for mileage, his coach states that pretty typical mileage for him in base phase, is 250 to 280 Kilometers with peak weeks exceeding 300 k. And for those who think in miles, that's about a 155 to a 175 miles in a week. Jeff, what what do you think about that level of mileage?

Jeff Gaudette [00:08:57]: So you know what? It's funny. And I'm sure Some people listening to this are gonna be floored by those numbers, but that doesn't surprise me at all. And there's a lot of reasons why, and I'm gonna try to bullet point them the best I can. So first of all, I would say that most elites in the marathon are running pretty close to that. So as a personal aside, I when I was training for the marathon, I would pretty I would pretty consistently be about a 140 miles a week. I would say a 120 to a 140 is probably the norm for most American marathoners based on my experience. So I would say that his training mileage isn't that Remarkable in terms of in comparison to other elites. Now there's a lot of caveats to that, especially when it comes to when we're talking with, like, recreational runners, things like that.

Jeff Gaudette [00:09:45]: The first being and I wrote about this in our email newsletter last week. I think it was, Either Tuesday or Saturdays edition. I'm not I can't remember which one. But, one thing to keep in mind when it comes to those weekly volume numbers is that They didn't just start doing that out of nowhere. So, I use my personal kind of transition to a 140 miles a week as a as an example. But, like, I started out and and the thing is, most of these elite athletes start when they're super young. So we're talking like, you know, 11, 12, 13 years old where they're starting to train fairly consistently. So, like, in my case, I was a freshman in high school.

Jeff Gaudette [00:10:21]: I think that puts you around 15 or 16 years old, somewhere somewhere around there. And so, I started running consistently when I was 15. Kiptum, from what we've can gather, was running around the age of 13 to 14 years old. And Kenyans also have the, they're a little bit more of a, you know, their society isn't, you know, they don't have, quite as much access to cars. They Okay. Just in their general daily life, they're doing a lot more on their feet, walking a lot more, their running is in their culture, so they run from place to place. So There's a lot of background that he had in his childhood that even kinda set him up from an early stage of his training to be able to handle a lot more mileage. And then going into progression, like, I did like I said, I detailed this out in my the newsletter that we sent, but I pretty much added 10 to 15% to my mileage yearly.

Jeff Gaudette [00:11:10]: Now, again, the thing that makes a difference is that I started at 14, 15 years old. And so when you're adding that you know, only adding 15% Per year, all it take you know, by the time you're 24 or 25 years old, that's 10 years of compounding gains. And so all of a sudden, that doesn't look like such a big jump. And I would think What I would challenge, anybody listening to this who wants to put in perspective, like, imagine you increased your mileage by 10 or 15% per year. That's not a lot. If you start out at 20, you know, that means the next year you're maybe doing 25 to 30 miles per week, like, on average for the year, for average for the year. And so if you think about that, that's not a huge increase. But what happens is 10, 15 years of compounding that makes a big difference.

Jeff Gaudette [00:11:56]: The second part of the reason that there a lot of elites are able to do this is that they're younger. So, again, when I started, I was 14, 15 years old. Kelvin Kiptum started when he was probably 13, 14, 15 years old. And now he's only 24 years old. So for all of those of us who are on the older end of the spectrum, we know that you know, part of the reason that, adult runners can't do that is or can't have the same progression is just that Part of it is the age. Like, when you're starting to get 40, you know, 3540, 4550, it those things start to take a toll. It's harder to recover. It takes longer to recover.

Jeff Gaudette [00:12:31]: Those types of things. And so we're not able to quite do the volume that an elite runner might able to do. And then one of the, the I guess the third point is Keep in mind, at the paces that these athletes are running at. So and Mike, like, I'll well, we can use Calvin Kipton. But so he's running I'm better in miles. So if he's running a 160 miles a week, his average pace per mile is probably about 6 minutes per mile. I would say, like, his easy pace is about 6 minutes per mile. So he's doing you know, he can do 10 mile run-in an hour.

Jeff Gaudette [00:13:05]: And, you know, you compare that to what we might consider, like, the average Person listening to this podcast or direct recreational runner, you know, if you're running 9, 10, 11, 12 minutes a while, there's nothing there's nothing wrong with that. But, obviously, it's gonna take you twice as long to do that. So when we start when we start thinking about, okay, if you go out and run for an hour, the person listening to this podcast, That might be, you know, that might be like a 6 mile run somewhere, you know, for an hour. That might be like a 6 mile run. Whereas for Kelton Kipton, that's a 10 mile run. You know. And so it's a lot easier to put in the mileage or get in the mileage because the time just isn't as much. It's not as much of a, a time sink as we might think, you know.

Jeff Gaudette [00:13:45]: So I I remember when I was doing that type of mileage, my morning runs would be anywhere from 12 to 15 miles, and that would only take about 90 minutes. And so, same thing with Calvin Kiptum. You know, the time variance is is different there. And then finally, I'll say one more thing. The technology this especially the shoe technology, and we've had podcast episodes about this. But one of the things you know, we talk about it so much in the in the Concept and and the format of racing and how much faster you can race. But one of the things that these, kind of, quote unquote super shoes do now is that they allow you to recover so much faster. And so part of doing this much mileage is is that there's just not as much pounding on the body as especially as there was 10, 15, 20 years ago.

Jeff Gaudette [00:14:27]: So I know it's a long winded answer and but hopefully, following those bullet points, you can see where the mileage numbers definitely seem pretty amazing, and they are. Like, it it takes a lot of work to run a 150, 175 miles per week, but it's not quite as intimidating as it may sound when you kind of break it down and look at all the factors that let it lead into it. And then, one thing I'll say as well is, you know, Calvin kept Calvin Kipton's an elite athlete, and so That's all he's doing all day is running. And one thing that I think we forget as recreational athletes is that we have so much else going on. You know? A lot of times, You know, we finish our runs, and it's like we're doing our best just to get, you know, get showered and get ready and get off to work and driving in the car, like, right after we do our workouts, all that kind of stuff. And then, you know, come home and it's like, take care of the kids, cooking dinner, etcetera, etcetera. Whereas, Kelvin Kiptum runs, And then he probably does 90 minutes of, like, post runs, like, recovery, and then he takes a nap, and then, you know, massages. And so he's doing all of the Of that, obviously, isn't enables him but his him to his body to take on a lot more training than we might normally be able to.

Jeff Gaudette [00:15:39]: So pretty long winded answer, but hopefully, it kind of broke down, you know, why that mileage is is spectacular, but at the same time, doable for somebody like him.

Cory Nagler [00:15:48]: Yeah. Definitely. I think, doable for somebody who like him who's an elite athlete is the, definitely an important distinction there. I will also add one clarification, which is I believe he actually or his coach, rather, did specify pace on the easy runs, and it was Something more in the ballpark of, like, a 6:45 or 7 minute mile. So, I will say somewhat jokingly because it's still quite fast, but a A slow trudge compared to the 6 minute timeline.

Jeff Gaudette [00:16:16]: Yeah. Well and and I'll give you this, and I'm glad you brought that up because I didn't I didn't see it in our outline, but, I'm I'm glad you brought it up. I think one thing that elite that anybody listening to this podcast can take especially is that So Calvin Kipton runs, you know, his marathons at 2 hours. He can run a marathon in 2 hours, and he's running his easy run pace, Like you said, 6:37 minutes per mile. Compare that to what you might be doing as a listener, especially for people that we talked to. We said, you know, you could when we say, Oh, you gotta run slow. You gotta run slow. You know, compare your marathon pace to your easy run pace.

Jeff Gaudette [00:16:51]: Like, how how close are they together compared to Kalvin Kittim. Like, there's he has a big difference between what his marathon pace is and what his easy pace is. And so people listening to this should realize too, easy run should be easy. So even the guy that ran the world record is running his easy runs at 6:37 minutes a mile pace when, You know, he's running I think the average is, like, 4 33 or something like that, per mile for the marathon. It might even be faster than that.

Cory Nagler [00:17:19]: Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, those those speeds are mind boggling. But let's get into how he actually gets in that mileage starting with the long run, Which I think is is probably the most important weekly workout for most runners who are training for a marathon. That said, typically, what most training plans will have for the marathon is 1 big long run often on the weekend when runners tend to have more time. Kiptom takes a bit of a different approach doing 2 long runs in a week. And not only that, but his long runs get up to about 25 miles, And he includes speed work in in both both times. Jeff, is this something you've seen before in elite training world doing multiple long runs? And then Is it something that would be useful, let alone with pays for for the average runner?

Jeff Gaudette [00:18:08]: Yeah. So the multiple wrong ones is is long runs is not something I've Seen in any training that I've analyzed before, I question if it's not a, A translation error from the coach in terms of talking about long runs and workouts and kind of maybe combining the 2. Maybe that's his, you know, maybe that's his, one of the reasons that he did so well is that he came across a a training philosophy slash theory that, To long runs, for some reason, is is, more conducive to the to gain, the adaptations that he wants to have. I would think that it's more There's, it's more of a longer temp one of those sessions is like a longer tempo. And that they're con they're considering that a long run because the mileage is so, big, but I think it's I think it's just a case of him doing a longer tempo, and then and then still having 1 long run per week, if that makes sense. That said, the other parts of what his coach expressed, I think, make a lot of sense and are a lot of things We try to incorporate as well into our training and and are really the basis of almost everybody's marathon training plan. The first being that comes to mind is that there's speed work, in the marathon sorry. In the long run itself.

Jeff Gaudette [00:19:24]: And speed works a little bit relative there because it's not like, you know, when we think of speed work a lot of time, we think of, like, going on the track running 200, 400 meter repeats, that kind of stuff. And I highly doubt that's what they mean by speed work. But I think it's more, like, we call, like, fast finish long runs where, You know, you might run the 1st, if you're doing a 16 mile run, you might run the 1st 10 miles easy and then, start running around marathon pace for the last Four or 5 miles, something along those lines. Or there's a lot of different types of workouts that we can do. I'll link them in the show notes if you wanna check them out. But there's, like, We call them, like, surge long runs. There's surge long runs with, where you're running marathon pace in between. There's a lot of different stuff that Speedworks stuff that you can do inside the long run itself.

Jeff Gaudette [00:20:07]: That can be very, very beneficial to, adaptations to the marathon. And, like I said, I'll link it up in the article so we don't get too bogged down into, like, marathon training long runs. But there's specific adaptations that we can get by doing tempo run slash long runs, especially work within the long run itself. So that's something I'm I'm high I I definitely understand why he's including that. One thing to keep in mind when we talk about the distances Is as many listeners of Runner's Connect may know, we are big believers that the long run One of the mistakes or the flaws of most marathon training plans is that the long run is too much of a percentage of the weekly mileage. So what we see with a lot of people that struggle with the marathon is their average mileage per week is something like 40 miles per week. And then during the marathon, they're doing a 20 to 22 mile long run, something along those lines. And, therefore, the long run becomes It's about it's 50% or more of their weekly mileage.

Jeff Gaudette [00:21:07]: Now to me, there's a lot long wrong with that, and I I think we've seen Through data and through my own personal experience that the better way to do that is to split your mileage up throughout the week and have it so that the long run is, You know, closer to 30 to 40% of your weekly mileage. And that's gonna help a lot with recovery. But, anyway, before I and rather than going down Rabbit hole of long runs and, that kind of thing. What I mean to say is when we look at his long runs at 20, 25 miles per week, a 12 miles, That seems like it's a lot. But, again, when we talk about paces, that means that his long run, especially if he's doing some types of speed work in there, is probably taking less than 2 hours. And when we can back that up to if if, somebody listening to this podcast would be doing a 20 mile run, that might be a 3 or 4 hour type run. So there's a lot more stress on the body and different stress on the body when you're running, you know, under an under around 2 hours or under 2 hours compared to when you're running 3 4 hours, if that makes sense. And so when we see the absolute mileage of 20 to 25 miles during the long runs, Try to translate that into time.

Jeff Gaudette [00:22:16]: So, again, it's a 2 hour long run rather than and it it's not like a 4 hour long run, if that makes sense. So hope that's kinda clear on on, I guess, some of the, I think, some of the takeaways when we look at, I think this applies to anytime we look at elites. Right? We need to start thinking about How does that apply to me and how do we change that? And so this is a really good example of okay. We look at his absolutes, But then how do we translate that into what we're doing? And so if we look at the absolutes of, okay, his long run is 2 hours With speed work in there, that kind of thing, that's this type of stuff that we like. At runners back that we have our athletes doing, where it's The long runs might top out at 16, sometimes 18 miles, but we're doing a lot of quality in that and not just 3, 4 hours on our that kind of thing.

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Cory Nagler [00:25:41]: Yeah. This this is a bit of a tangent, but I found for me, it was a bit of a game changer when I 1st got a coach and they recommended putting speed work in my long run. That's when I really started seeing rapid improvement. So, certainly not doing the level of training that Kipton's doing, but I Certainly, for for myself, I found that to be helpful.

Jeff Gaudette [00:25:59]: Yeah. Absolutely. There's there's so many benefits, physiologically, also psychologically, to doing to having some type of faster paced work when you're doing your long run. There's a there's a lot of advantages there. And like I said, I don't want this podcast to turn into a a lesson on marathon long runs. But, I can we can definitely put the resources in the show notes for this episode. So that way, if you do wanna kinda go down that rabbit hole, You're more than welcome.

Cory Nagler [00:26:24]: Yeah. We we can put those links in. Just wanna move over to what you kind of qualified as the more traditional We'd work, but we think of that being tempos, track work, even fartlix, which is quite popular with the Kenyan runners. So according to Kipton's training, in addition to those 2 long runs he laid out, there's another 1 to 2 of those kinda more classic workouts per week, so more additional Speed work. When when you look at that kind of across the weekly training plan with the amount of speed he's doing, is is that consistent with what you normally see the elites doing?

Jeff Gaudette [00:26:57]: Yeah. I would say that. Yeah. I would say probably 1 to 2 days work. You know, I think when you look at the summarization over it, you know, when it's tracked, Fartlix tempo, it's like, I would probably say that, his track work sessions aren't what we would consider like, He's not going out in the track and running, like, a 400 meter repeat and then taking 400 meters rest, which would be more like a speed or VO 2 max workout. More than likely, he's doing something like mild repeats with, short rest. So, like, something that we do with our athletes is they'll run a dual, like, a mile repeat, and then The rest is only 45 to 60 minutes, and the speed is maybe around, like, half marathon pace ish, a little bit faster, 10 mile race pace, that kind of thing. So Even though they're on the track for that, that's more just to get the kind of the feel, get in the rhythm kind of thing.

Jeff Gaudette [00:27:47]: And then the the rest being short is just a way to Give a little bit of a breather there so that they're still staying in a range of working on their lactate threshold or one of the thresholds, but Being able to go faster. So if, you know, obviously, if you're let's say you did a wanted to do a 5 mile workout and you wanted to keep your you wanted to keep yourself at your threshold. So if you run for 5 miles straight, that's you're obviously gonna have to go slower than if you were to do 5 times 1 mile with 62nd rest. And so it's a way to be able to turn the legs over, but still keep your, the physiological the kind of the rogue system part in the lactate threshold range. So those are the types of workouts that he's doing. And then, obviously, he's doing some fartlicks and temple runs in there as well. So more your traditional marathon pace runs, threshold runs, that kind of stuff. So, definitely, this the mix that I would expect from a marathon runner, for sure.

Cory Nagler [00:28:41]: Yeah. So a lot of speed work in addition to a lot of mileage. I'm I'm starting to notice a trend that it's, run a lot and you tend

Jeff Gaudette [00:28:47]: to get faster. Yeah. That's you know, it's kind of the backbone of things. It's, You know, you run a lot, you get faster, and really the game the the thing comes down to is can you recover from it. Right? That's the balance, the tight lock, The tight rope, and that is pretty much the challenge at all marathoners face. And it you know, the the longer the distance, probably, I would say that the tighter the balance gets of, like, How much work can you do, and how can you recover from it?

Cory Nagler [00:29:13]: Yep. Alright. The, the last piece of his training that I I wanna dive more specifically on is The rest piece, because he actually doesn't take any programmed rest, reportedly kept him, unless he feels that he needs it, will not take any rest days in a week. And he's doing doubles every day that doesn't include a long run. So, you're looking at anywhere from about, 10 to 12 runs in a week. Do you would you ever recommend that other runners not take a rest day? So I guess is this specific to the elites? And then if you are at the elite level, is that Something that you found beneficial.

Jeff Gaudette [00:29:50]: Yeah. So I would say that most of the elites that I know I would say 80 to 90% of the elites that I know Don't take rest days or don't take scheduled rest days. There are some that do, so there's probably about 20% that do always have, like, a scheduled rest day every Sunday or whatever the day may be for them, but I would say the majority don't. There's a couple reasons for that. Mainly that, They again, they built up their mileage to the point where that they can handle it. And one thing to consider too, again, elites are very good at listening to their bodies and also So running the paces they need to run. So we talked about this with Kiptom when he's running his easy paces as he's doing 6:37 minutes per mile, that is a really Easy easy effort for him. And so when we think about what recovery is, when we if you if you run slow enough, You're able to recover while still putting in mileage because you're just not putting the stress on your body that you might normally be able to.

Jeff Gaudette [00:30:47]: And so I would say that is the backbone of being not being not needing to take any specific scheduled rest days. You know, I'm sure he does take Just rest days, if you feel something coming on or if he's a little more tired than usual, but definitely not out of the realm. Now that said, when we flip this to this is one thing when we flip to Kind of recreational athletes are us, you know, mortals trying to train for the marathon, that kind of thing. I do think there's more of a place for rest days in our schedules. And part of that is one of that is that we don't always do a great job of recovering. And it could be because we're running, too hard on our easy days. And like I mentioned before, like, Kiptan basically designs his life around Getting his mileage. So he's doing all the massage.

Jeff Gaudette [00:31:33]: He's getting naps. He's doing all the little things that you could possibly do to recover as fast as you possibly can. Whereas a lot of times, us mortals are just kind of fitting everything in we can the best during the week. And so Having that extra rest day can really be helpful to just kind of reset everything and give us a day to really focus on recovery, that elites might not necessarily need because they're doing that throughout the week.

Cory Nagler [00:31:58]: Yeah. Yeah. And to to put it in context, I think the The runner I know who's or pro runner, I should say, who runs the most frequently is, actually a Canadian runner I've mentioned on the podcast. Cam Levins will do Triples most, most days of the week, and so it could be closer to anywhere from 15 to to 20 runs in a week. So comparatively, Again, jokingly because it's a lot, but, it kinda dwarfs the 10 to 12 runs that Kiptum's doing.

Jeff Gaudette [00:32:26]: Yeah. Exactly. 33 runs per day is a little a little on the interesting side, but Cam definitely has something of work working for him for sure. But, again, it's a good example of elite athletes are able to recover while running, a lot easier than kind of us mortals for a lot of reasons.

Cory Nagler [00:32:44]: Yep. No. It it it's amazing what the elites can do. And, again, the topic for today is really trying to pick what can us average mortals, pull from that. So, I wanna get into some more specific questions, related to this some of those topics we discussed. I know that we touched a little bit already on What kind of more amateur runners, I'll call it, can learn from Kiptom's training? So I'll do this in somewhat of a a rapid fire, style. But, just to start, looking at a runner like Kiptum who ran a world record at the age of 24, why is it that you wouldn't recommend a runner simply just Take his training plan and copy it. Exactly.

Jeff Gaudette [00:33:25]: Yeah. So I think with any training plan, like, there's so many variables that go into Why that person was doing what they were doing? And so you likely do not as as a person that would might be, trying to take on this plan, like, you don't have the background that he has. So you didn't probably grow up in a rural environment where you were on your feet running your whole entire life, until you were a child. Until you, like, really started training, consistently. Again, he probably started running like this when he was or training hard when he was 15, 16, 17 years old. So, again, one thing to consider with Kenyan culture is that running running is like their football, baseball, Since you're Canadian hockey, in the sense that for a lot of kids, that's their way out of poverty, Is sport and and running in particular. Most of, like, the heroes and everything like that are runners. And make 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of dollars.

Jeff Gaudette [00:34:23]: And so when kids are 15, 16, 17 years old and are living in poverty, They will train super, super hard because they know it's one way that they can get out of that situation. And so, you know, if you have a 150, 200 kids training like that, You know, you may have 5 to 10 that come out of it that don't get hurt, that don't get burnt out, etcetera. And then they become the Kevin the the kiptams of the world where they're setting the world on fire. But it's a low percentage of the numbers that start. And so he's got a lot in his background that it's very unlikely that anyone else has or very few have. And so what he has as as his background is what allows him to do what he's doing today. And if you don't have that background, you're not gonna be able to just kind of plug and play what he's doing. You kinda gotta adapt what he did is doing and adapt it to where you're at, for sure.

Cory Nagler [00:35:17]: Okay. So let's dive a little bit more into how you adapt it then. Looking at Kiptom's crazy mileage, or not so crazy as as you've maybe pointed out of, say, close to 300, Kilometers a week or a 170 something, miles in a week, if that's your preferred measurement. How does that compare to what you would typically recommend, to say a a runners connect athlete training for the marathon? And and what do you think a normal runner, or I'll I'll I'll say normal to quantify those of us who are not elite. What what what do you think other runners maybe can learn from that In terms of how to translate it to their own training, is it as simple as, trying to mimic the the time on feet or the rate of gain? Or how do you then apply that to your own training?

Jeff Gaudette [00:36:06]: Yeah. So great question. I would definitely say that I would never recommend any athlete that to to try to emulate running 170 miles per week. That said, what I think you can learn from it is mileage really is a huge factor in long term development. And, you know, we talk about this a lot, but the aerobic system is such an important and critical part of being able to run fast, especially at longer distances like the marathon. And for most kind of recreational runners, adult athletes, Like, the aerobic system is the part that's the furthest behind, especially for those that didn't start young. So if you started running when you're 25, 30, 45, 50, You know, that's fantastic, but you do not have the aerobics background that is so helpful for something like the marathon. And the reason that Kiiptum runs that much mileage is, obviously, because he can handle it, but also because that mileage is what helps contribute to his Insane aerobic development.

Jeff Gaudette [00:37:09]: And so what I would take out of that, and I hope that anybody listening takes out of this, is that Aerobic development is really key and paramount to being able to run your best at the marathon. Now, again, we're not gonna try to hit a 170 miles per week, but It does mean that there is a the opportunity to focus on building your mileage is really important. And I think that's where, Beginners often kind of do things incorrectly. And it's hard because, you know, you're just starting out. You don't really know anything, but kind of a lot of beginners, you know, you go on the Internet and you say, like, oh, you know, training plan for a 5 k or for a 10 k, etcetera. And then you see 2 workouts per week, You know, a speed workout on Tuesdays and a temple run and that kind of stuff. And to be honest, like, if you're just starting out, like, just focus on getting in mileage. If you can Develop your aerobic system and just slowly build up mileage and not introduce things like speed work that could potentially get you hurt, or I should say increase the risk of getting injured, then I think you're on a much better trajectory to being able to maximize your potential long term at longer distances.

Jeff Gaudette [00:38:15]: And so I would think that even that even applies to, a little bit more experience trying to serve you're 3, 4, 5 years into your running journey, Still focusing on the the mileage and being able to slowly increase your mileage safely and and keeping yourself healthy is is Something that can make a make big gains in your overall fitness when it comes to longer distance, races.

Cory Nagler [00:38:37]: Yeah. So so following up on that, Is there such a thing as junk miles, or is it as simple as run more, get faster?

Jeff Gaudette [00:38:45]: Yeah. I mean, There's a little bit of both in there. Right? So there are thing there are such thing as junk miles, I think. But I think for the most part, like, I think junk miles comes more into play with elites because it's again, when you're running a 140 miles a week, like, 170 miles per whatever whatever your number is, like, there's To do, therefore, quote unquote, junk miles. And when we say junk miles, like, the I think I personally define the term junk miles is Running mileage for the sake of running mileage with no specific purpose. And so when I look at a run, I wanna know I wanna say, okay. What's the purpose Are we trying to develop some type of, you know, systems? Like, is it speed work threshold? Like, are we trying to do something specific? Is it building anaerobic endurance? Is it helping with recovery? Is it to build, long run distance? That kind of stuff. Like, we look at what are we doing.

Jeff Gaudette [00:39:38]: And so There are times when you can just be kind of putting in miles to put in miles, but I think for the most most part, that happens more on the elite side than it does on the, Kind of your traditional runner side or or traditional recreational runner side, because there's less opportunity there for junk miles.

Cory Nagler [00:39:57]: Yep. Yeah. It's a lot lot more opportunity, I guess, once you're getting into the the extremes of mileage. Mhmm. I guess, moving over to kind of more the long run side of things. We kinda chatted about how Kiptan's doing these 40 k long runs, but it's really closer to 2 hours. But that's still the amount of time that he's spending running his actual marathon race at. Would you recommend that other runners consider Putting in the amount of time they're gonna raise their marathon in training or or even going beyond that potentially?

Jeff Gaudette [00:40:30]: Yeah. Personally, I do not think so, for for a couple of different reasons. I kinda mentioned this, but one thing that happens when you start running over 2 hours, 2 and a half hours is The increase for injury risk goes up dramatically. So there's, like, one of those inverse, graphs where the benefits of the run so, like, aerobic development, that kind of stuff, like, Starts to decline around out right around after 2 and a half hours, and then the increase or chance of injury increases after about 2 and a half hours. So you get one of those, like, forget what the graphs are called, but we're like, one side's going up, one side's going down. So inverse relationship. So once you get over about 2 and a half hours, you're just to me, all you're doing is increasing your injury risk with for, diminishing results diminishing, physiological results. So I don't recommend it.

Jeff Gaudette [00:41:22]: Not only during the run are you opening yourself up for more injury, and the reason that happens is that you start to get tired. And the more tired you get, The more likely it is that your form is gonna break down. And when your form starts to break down, it really starts to open yourself up for injury because you start relying on muscle groups that, you may not be quite as accustomed to, using or you start using you start forcing things, running with bad posture, that kind of stuff, which puts you in bad positions. And so you increase your risk for injury. But you also increase your risk for injury for days and days after the run as well because you have to recover from that. So if you think about, you know, if you're normally running an hour a day and then all of a sudden you go and run 4 hours per day, like or in one day, Like, that's gonna have that's gonna take a dramatic toll on a recovery. And so what I find is that athletes usually set their selves up for injury in after doing runs like that. And the trick tricky things with running injuries is that they don't always have this it'd be a lot easier if we got injured because and for, like, very specific reason, like, Okay.

Jeff Gaudette [00:42:22]: Like, I ran, one day I ran further than I was supposed to. The next day, I got hurt. Like Like, you we we could directly correlate it to, okay, I ran too far. That's why I got hurt. But with running injuries, they just kind of, like, build over time. And then all of a sudden, you're like, oh, now my Achilles hurts. And there was nothing there wasn't any, like, shocking moment where you're just like, oh, I ran 1 minute over, like, the hour that I was supposed to go and, like, boom, your Achilles went. No.

Jeff Gaudette [00:42:47]: It just kinda gradually happens. And so that becomes a difficulty of running injuries. But when it gets back to that long run that we're talking about, the the fatigue from that carries on for 3, 4, 5, 6 days. And then when you start to get back into your normal training, you start opening yourself up for injury again because you're running fatigued and not fully recovered. And, again, the the the last part of it is that, if going along those lines, if you're running, You know, 3, 4 hours and then needing 5 or 6 days to recover. I think it's a better use of your time to spread out that mileage over that 4, 5, 6 days Just spread out that volume and to be able to do more quality work in there. So instead of doing 1 run over the course of 5 days where you're getting anything of value, You can do 3 or 4 runs where you 3 runs where you can get something of value, where you could do a longer run at marathon pace, a couple recovery runs, and then a temple run. You know, know, something along those lines.

Jeff Gaudette [00:43:42]: So there's a lot more quality that you can get in there. And so gets kind of a longer explanation for why I don't think, looking at the volume of long runs that elites do makes sense. I think it's better to look at the time that they're doing those in.

Cory Nagler [00:43:58]: Yeah. Yeah. And we we did touch on that, a little bit before, but good to dive in deeper. And I also like the the point you brought up about kind of the the Cumulative load as opposed to just during the the workout. I've often found that most of the time when I pick up an injury, it it's during the easy run But I start to feel it. And and for non runners, it it probably seems bizarre. It's like, well, you're you're not working very hard. Why why is that when you got injured? When you really think about it, I'm I'm going into most of my workouts fresh.

Cory Nagler [00:44:26]: Right? I think for most of the time, if you're if you're structuring your training well, you're going into that recovery, whereas the easy runs are when you When you need that and when you're feeling the load of of the hard workouts?

Jeff Gaudette [00:44:36]: Yeah. Absolutely. Yep.

Cory Nagler [00:44:38]: So I was gonna ask, a little more questions, about the long run, but I I think we did kind of address them. So one that I had specifically on the speed work Skiptum does, And this is more for Kenyan training programs in general, more so than specific to Sure. Speed workouts or track workouts that we tend to do in North America. Is this just preference, or do you think that 1 or the other is Generally better for performance.

Jeff Gaudette [00:45:11]: Yeah. I think there's a there's a that's a great question. I think part of it comes into How they're brought up with their training? So they do a lot of fartlicks, I think because the way they structure their training in Kenya tends to favor fartlicks Because, one, they don't really have great tracks all the time. Their tracks can be kind of all over the place. And then there's also, like, a big group usually. So, like, You know, before they come like super elites, they're usually training in a big group of, like, 50 to a 100 guys. And Because they're all kind of at slightly different levels, Fartlix tend to make more sense than doing something a lot more structured. Because then it's not just like you run the mile and then it's like, you know, it's easier if everybody's just running for 3 minutes, and then after 3 minutes, you stop regardless of what pace you're running no matter where you're at.

Jeff Gaudette [00:45:55]: You stop at 3 minutes, take a 2 minute rest or whatever it is, and then start back up again. Whereas, if you're doing some type of loop on, like, a mile a kilometer or mileage loop, when you If you're further ahead than 1 person than the other, the other person still has to finish or get where you're at. So when you're in those big groups, the fartlets make a lot more sense. And so I think It kinda starts like that. Like, that's how they start, and then that's what they're just comfortable with, and so they continue that into their elite careers as well. But I think usually as they progress and become, like, you know, we're we're, like, Kiptum's at, we're Kiptum's at, like, they tend to Start to move towards the more structured, like, we're doing an exact we're doing 2 kilometers in this repeat, that kind of thing. But because it they start out in those far lakes, they usually Keep that for a while.

Cory Nagler [00:46:43]: Yep. And how about volume of workouts? Like, do it doing up to 4 workouts in a week. Is that something you see in the recreational community as being beneficial?

Jeff Gaudette [00:46:54]: I don't. That gets back to the idea of wanting like, favoring, aerobic development over any all outs. And so I think if you want to work work on aerobic development, then that's what you would do as, more of the recreational athletes. One thing that Kenyans have As their background is just, like, generally, they're just more aerobic developed. So like we've talked about, they live at, they Live in a society where running and doing a lot of stuff is just more than norm. And then second, they live at altitude. So they have just an aerobic substance more developed in general, and then they're just also running at a much earlier age and doing a lot more volume at a earlier age than we're than we're used to. And so they have all of that going for them where they can sacrifice a little bit on the Adobe development side for more speed work.

Cory Nagler [00:47:43]: Okay. So let's let's talk about the the rest piece. In The fact you we we brought up with these elites that that's actually somewhat typical that they're not having structured rest days, which For those of us not in the elite realm, I think can can feel a little weird because it's it's usual to have at least 1, if not 2 or 3 rest days, even even in the highest intensity period of training. Do do you think there's any carryover? Say, you're Somebody who's been running and training for a long period of time, but, maybe not putting in elite times will will say more in the realm of kind of a a b Queue or or middle of the pack. Is is there any merit in in running 7 days a week? Or or do you think that's something that's that's really only if you're at that level?

Jeff Gaudette [00:48:33]: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I think I think the first thing needs to be that you need to be sure that you're recovering. So if you're finding that you have the time throughout the week to get in recovery. If you're running your easy days slow enough and feeling recovered and you're not, you know, kinda hitting the end of the week just feeling exhausted, that kind of thing, absolutely can move to 7 days. Do you know, I I would do think it's beneficial for them for some people. If, Like, again, if you're feeling recovered, that's just another day that you can get in some quality aerobic miles. And as long as you're recovering from it, then absolutely.

Jeff Gaudette [00:49:07]: I don't see there's there being any downside, to running 7 days if you're recovering. That's but on the flip side, I don't think there's any downside to Not, you know, to taking an extra rest day or 2, especially.

Cory Nagler [00:49:20]: Yep. Yep. That makes sense. Extending that just a little further, how about, Out, getting up to, like, 8, 9, 10, or even 10 to 12 workouts or or runs rather in a week, is that something you see everyday runners working up to?

Jeff Gaudette [00:49:34]: I don't, because I the time commitment that so anytime you start doing doubles, you know, so running twice per day, like, Not only the time commitment. So you have to do 2 runs. You have you have to get ready, go out, do 2 workouts, exact you know, etcetera. Like, there's a huge time commitment there, but the recovery commitment as well Takes a it takes a toll. And so, I think I would say that for the majority of recreational runners, I would say that unless you're, You know, bordering on sub elite, I don't think you need to run more than once per day. I don't I don't think that there's a a huge or I'd say Bordering on sub elite or probably above, like, 60 to 70 miles per week. Do you need to run more than twice per day? I think below that Volume and unless you're kind of at that level, I don't think I I don't think the the the benefit you get from possibly running a couple times, but little more Sessions, is worth the stress and lack of recovery that you get. That said, I mean, the benefit is that and and I wouldn't say that you can't do it.

Jeff Gaudette [00:50:41]: Like so the benefit is that you're able to break up your mileage. And so especially on easy days, Again, what's easier? 2 4 2 4 mile runs with, like, you know, 6, 7 hours apart or 1 8 mile run? Like, obviously, the 2 4 mile runs is, like, from a flat just total, like, I guess, physiological perspective. Like, 2 4 mile runs is gonna be obviously much easier. But, again, logistically, for a lifestyle perspective, 1 8 mile run is a lot easier. So you kinda have to factor that in.

Cory Nagler [00:51:11]: Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. No. Definitely. The the time factor is is massive, and I found even the the same amount of mileage takes so much longer when you it up, and you add in the time to, get ready, you know, putting on your stuff. You gotta kinda mentally prepare and make sure you have your keys and everything. So Totally agree on that piece.

Jeff Gaudette [00:51:29]: And then you get back and you gotta stretch and you gotta shower and it's like yeah. It's it's a lot quicker.

Cory Nagler [00:51:34]: It's a process. Absolutely. Yeah. So bearing in mind those limited time and resources, do you think that it's still possible to pick apart habits of elite Athletes that can be universally applied to more amateur runners?

Jeff Gaudette [00:51:52]: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I think I think, hopefully, I did a good job of Going through specific points like miles, long run speed workouts, that kind of thing, where I pointed out some specific ideas that I think we can take from that. Looking at, like, what they're doing and how do we how do we adapt it and how do we scale it to where we're at. Right? And so, again, like the long run, for example. Like, he is doing a lot of Quality in his long runs. And I believe that that's something that marathoners need to be doing. And the more quality you can do within your long run, the more you can handle, I think, the the more that's gonna translate to marathon performance.

Jeff Gaudette [00:52:25]: You know? Same same thing with speed work. Like, if we look at what he's doing for speed work, it's not, Yeah. So 800. It's not VO 2 max stuff. It's all threshold stuff even though the the speed at which he's doing it is obviously much faster than we could fathom. But, like, for him, that's threshold stuff. So

Cory Nagler [00:52:43]: Okay. So Kiptom's doing a lot of massive training. I I think we've we've kinda quantified here that for the average runner, there's certain pieces you can pick apart. There's others That maybe you wanna change up a little because you don't have the same time and resources, to work up to the same level of training. So to wrap this up in a pretty bow, what do you think it is that Revi separates elites from more everyday runners? And then for those of us that aren't elite, what do you think are the most important strategies of the elite runners that we can apply in our own training?

Jeff Gaudette [00:53:22]: Oh, okay. That's a great question. So there was 2 parts to that. So I think the first, can you say the first one again? Just so I make sure I get it right.

Cory Nagler [00:53:30]: Yeah. So the the first part is just what what do you think, really, it is that separates the elites from the rest of us?

Jeff Gaudette [00:53:37]: Yeah. So I think that just comes down to talent. And I know that's like a cop out answer, but, my Part of my journey that I that I've loved, I I when I call it, like, my fitness journey, is that after I stopped running competitively, like, became you know, I stopped Trying to compete competitively, I really wanted to get into, like, power lifting. And so I was like I heard about this thing. It was called the 1,000 pound challenge, which is where you can The combination of your squat, deadlift, and bench needs a total of £1,000. And so I was like, man, that sounds awesome. Like, I really wanna try for that. And so I probably spent, like, 2 or 3 years training just to try to get hit the 1,000 pound challenge.

Jeff Gaudette [00:54:18]: And I never did, mostly because my squat. I can deadlift pretty good and bench wasn't too bad, but for whatever reason, I have a hard time squatting. And so I I got up to, like, 9 some 900 something. But I put in a lot of work, and I tried really hard, and, obviously, it just didn't happen. Now I know high schoolers that can do that. I that can do the 1,000 pound challenge. There are high schoolers today that can do that, you know, that do that Easy. You know, that just they're talented and able to do it.

Jeff Gaudette [00:54:48]: And when I look at, like, running, like, for some people, Qualifying for Boston is, like, their lifetime goal, lifetime achievement, and they work years years years to make that happen. Right? I could have probably qualified for Boston in high school. And I don't mean that to be say that as, like, a brag, but because I say that as in some people we're just all talented in our own way. And so elites are just talented at running, and they have the physiological factors that are gonna make them allow them to run fast. And they now that said, they have the talent, but they put in the work. And so I would say that's just the difference. I know it's a kind of a cop out, but, Like, my own experience with it with it really opened my eyes to, like, how much talent really or just, like, talent or natural affinity for something, Like, it makes a difference. And so, yeah, that's kinda that's where it comes down to elites.

Jeff Gaudette [00:55:42]: Just they're just more talented. And I also say that for most elites, like, they just start doing it so young. And I think we see that a lot with across all sports, like, like tennis, basketball, hockey, golf. Like, anybody that's ever is really good. I should say anybody. 90% of the people that are really good at their sport Start it at young because that's just what we do. You know? You don't see a lot of, like, golfers pick up golfing at 40. A lot of people pick up golf Forty.

Jeff Gaudette [00:56:13]: But very few people pick up golf at 40 and then join the senior PGA tour. You know? And so, it's just one of those things where, you know, Generally speaking, the younger you can start something, the better you're gonna be at it overall. So, yeah, kind of a cop on answer because there's no, like I don't think there's a lot that you can do. I think it just becomes a reality of, like, where you're at, you know, and and using your strengths and weaknesses to do the best you can.

Cory Nagler [00:56:37]: Yeah. So, now for the 99.99% of us whose dreams are crushed that don't have that level of talent and didn't start training to be an elite runner at the age of 4. Let's go a little more positive. What can you take from Kiptom's training, or or what is the Top things that you can learn from Kaitlyn's training to at least get better than where you're at.

Jeff Gaudette [00:57:00]: Yeah. So I think the number one thing is the the importance of aerobic development. And we see that in his mileage and how much he's consistently running volume. Because he knows and his coach knows that The more that he can develop as a aerobic system, the better he's gonna be at longer distances, half marathon marathon. The second thing is specificity. So if you look at his workouts, That they're all specific to running fast at the marathon, which is the long runs have the, the the the speed work within the long run itself. The the volume the workouts that he that he's doing are all geared towards the marathon. So speed work geared towards the marathon, tempo runs geared towards the marathon, Doing more higher quality workouts throughout the week or a greater volume of workouts throughout the week, so that he can run more at marathon pace.

Jeff Gaudette [00:57:47]: And if we look at translating that to our more recreational style is like doing, making sure that the workouts you're doing throughout the week, your long runs, your Speed workouts, etcetera, all specific to the marathon when you're in your marathon training block. I think those are the the 2 biggest things, for sure.

Cory Nagler [00:58:05]: That's awesome. So those 2 things being getting in lots of mileage and then the specificity. Is that right?

Jeff Gaudette [00:58:11]: That's correct. Yeah. So Volume and making sure that you're developing your rope system as as much as you can, and then making sure that your workouts are specific to your goal. And so, you know, I and I let me translate let me give you an example. Like, I see a lot of runners that come into, like, Runners Connect before who Have struggled in a marathon and wanna know why. And we look at their training schedules, and a lot of times it's like they just follow that tradition, like, Tuesday is track day, and they go Training for a marathon and on Tuesdays, they're doing, you know, 400 meter repeats with full recovery. Like, that's just not that is a great workout overall, But, like, that's not very specific to the marathon. And so the more specific you can get to the race that you're doing, the better you're gonna be able to compete at that race.

Cory Nagler [00:58:52]: Yeah. Yeah. No. And I I think we can all be doing more of that. It's sometimes those those speed workouts are fun, but, you know, that's great if you're training for a mile. If it's for a marathon. You kinda have to do those those more specific workouts?

Jeff Gaudette [00:59:05]: Absolutely. Yep.

Cory Nagler [00:59:07]: Awesome. Well, I've certainly learned something today. As crazy as Kiptum's training is, I think it's kinda fun to to break it down and kinda look at what you can learn from it. So, Jeff, thank you for joining me today and kinda having that fun discussion.

Jeff Gaudette [00:59:21]: Oh, you're welcome, Corey. It was a pleasure of mine, and, it was really cool looking at breaking it down. So this is exciting. I hope everybody learned something from it. I know I sure did.

Cory Nagler [00:59:29]: Yeah. No. I had a lot of fun. Thanks, Jeff. And to to everyone listening, happy running. Cast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at Corey underscore Nagler.

Cory Nagler [01:00:00]: Birth your Strava by searching Corey Nagler, and please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast. Lastly, if you want bonus content, Behind the scenes experiences with guests and premier access to contests, and consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.net forward slash podcast. I'll see you on the next show. But until then, happy running, everyone.