Unfinished Business: How to Embrace the DNF

Coach Hayley [00:00:01]: One of the main things I want to to kinda get across is is that sort of feeling that a DNF isn't a failure. It doesn't have to be thought of as a failure, and it doesn't define you as a person or a runner. And it's something that most people experience at some point.

Cory Nagler [00:00:18]: Maybe the most dreaded word a runner can hear is DNF, short for did not finish. The thought of dropping out after spending months training for your goal race can give a lot of runners, including myself, anxiety and stress. But maybe it doesn't have to. I'll be honest, I didn't even know what happens when you DNF, until 2023, when it happened to me for the first time. But there's actually a lot of good reasons why you should be more prepared than I was. Coach Haley joins me on today's show to explain how embracing the DNF has actually helped her to perform better in races, by removing some of the fear and worry of dropping out. Over the next fifty ish minutes, we'll talk about why runners are so fearful of DNFing arrays, as well as when to consider DNFing, and how to bounce back if you make that call. So let's get into it.

Cory Nagler [00:01:14]: Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. I think usually we have pretty positive topics on the show, Haley. So I hope we don't scare any listeners away when we say that we're talking about DNFs. But how did you feel when you heard about this topic?

Coach Hayley [00:01:54]: Yeah. I mean, I think a DNF can be positive as well. I I don't think it has to be all bad. I think, I finished my first ultra over 50 ks in January after two attempts, which resulted in a DNF, and I'm pretty sure that those DNFs contributed to it kinda going well eventually. So I think there's positives to DNF, as I'm sure we'll get into. But I think I think we can definitely put a positive spin on this one.

Cory Nagler [00:02:22]: Yeah. So when we say DNFs, of course, we're talking about did not finish or you drop out of the race. We'd love to hear what your experience of this, both overall. But in particular, I know you have one race where you actually ran over distance, but where you took a wrong turn. Does that technically count as a DNF?

Coach Hayley [00:02:40]: Yeah. It turns out it does, which, I mean, it was definitely DNF on the results list, which felt kinda cruel because, yes, I ran further and arguably a more challenging route than the actual race route. So, especially if that was, like, my first ultra, it was it kind of was rubbish to to end up being DNF'd. But I mean, I still got a lot from that experience and I still let myself be pretty proud of it because it was the furthest I'd ever run by some way. So, yeah. Definitely there was some, there was some kind of sadness and disappointment there, and that definitely affected me after. But, yeah, there were definitely a lot of positives I could take from that one. And plus some learning experiences about being more cautious with, looking at, kind of the course beforehand and taking note of any places you could go wrong.

Coach Hayley [00:03:32]: So, yeah, some positives, but also kind of a sad experience that did affect me for a while after. So

Cory Nagler [00:03:41]: Shoot. I'm sorry to hear about it. You know, in my mind, you get full credit for that. If you're running over distance, I think it counts. We're probably gonna focus a little bit more on actually dropping out or not completing the race. But do you have any experience with that? Or was that the first time you DNF'd when you took that wrong turn?

Coach Hayley [00:03:59]: Oh, no. I've I mean, I've been running for, what, like, twenty years? And I maybe more than twenty years and I have so many DNFs. I mean, I've done a lot of races. So percentage wise, it's not very high. I mean, I've done a lot of races. I've been racing regularly since I was like 11. So, I have so many DNFs, like, and as a, as a proportion of the races I've done, it's probably not excessive, but just because of the number of races, it's high. So many different reasons, but also so many different kind of learnings that I took from them.

Coach Hayley [00:04:30]: So I definitely feel I'm qualified to talk about DNFs.

Cory Nagler [00:04:35]: Any of that stand out in your mind?

Coach Hayley [00:04:39]: Definitely the getting lost experience. I think the Ultra DNFs, of which there are two, they're getting lost. And when I twisted my ankle in an Ultra last year, they stand out just because of their kind of hugeness of dropping out of an Ultra and that you might be 40 miles from the start. It's a real pain to get back. Plus, you can't do that many of them, so it's a real, like, oh, no. I put all this training into this one day. Yeah. Just that one stands out to me.

Coach Hayley [00:05:13]: That one, I and I really feel that I had no choice in the matter, and I think I can take positives from that one as well, as I think you can from a lot of DNFs. But, yeah, twists in my ankle, medical tent volunteers told me, you know, it's it's not safe to continue. You could end up breaking it. To be honest, we're not even sure that it's not broken. It wasn't, thankfully. And, yeah. So I knew it wasn't safe to continue. In fact, I couldn't actually run.

Coach Hayley [00:05:40]: It was that painful. I was kind of hobbling along. And the awful thing about UltraDNS is it kind of took me, you know, a few miles of hobbling to get to an aid station where it was safe to drop out. So that's always fun. But I know I made the right decision there, and that's always that's always good when you know that you've made the right decision in a DNS. You don't have to think, could I have done better? I can still think, could I have done something different? But, it kinda led to a program of, like, strengthening the ankle for me and strength training and becoming better on technical trails. So always a learning experience. Yeah.

Coach Hayley [00:06:13]: That one stands out. Had a couple of marathon ones. They stand out as well. I think the ultra and the marathon ones stand out because it can be such a pain to get back to that to get back to somewhere, you know. If you drop out in, like, a five k or whatever, it's it's often not too bad to just kind of walk it back. But the longer races really add add a challenge in that way.

Cory Nagler [00:06:34]: Yeah. So we'll come back to the piece about why you might drop out. But I actually was curious myself on on this idea, what actually happens when you drop out of a race. I personally I've only ever had to drop out of one race, and that was the Amsterdam marathon, I guess, fall twenty twenty three. And if I recall correctly, essentially, they had, like, vehicles that would drive you to the start line, but they were only at the medical tents. So the closest one for me was, like, a three kilometer walk away, which is not ideal when you're kinda hobbling along, but better than having to walk. I think it was 22 kilometers into the race at that point. So pretty much,

Coach Hayley [00:07:08]: you know, it

Cory Nagler [00:07:09]: it's a long way either way, direction you're going.

Coach Hayley [00:07:11]: That's really funny because I've dropped out. I think I might have told you this before, Corey, but I've dropped out of the Amsterdam marathon as well.

Cory Nagler [00:07:19]: Bad luck.

Coach Hayley [00:07:19]: Yeah. Don't don't do the Amsterdam marathon. Oh, no. It's a great race. Do it.

Cory Nagler [00:07:24]: But It is a great race. Yeah. It's hard. As much as maybe I've had a bad experience.

Coach Hayley [00:07:28]: Yeah. It's hard to get back.

Cory Nagler [00:07:29]: Is is that typical?

Coach Hayley [00:07:31]: That well, yeah. That's very typical. Every I haven't dropped out of that many marathons. I'm making myself sound bad here, but it's more just due to the volume of marathons I've done. But, the marathons I have dropped out, it's been exactly the same. It's kinda like just get yourself back, really. Like, I've just, yeah. Amsterdam, sort of, using public transport and a bit of, sort of, walking slash jogging to get to get back.

Coach Hayley [00:08:01]: Same with London when I dropped out of their public transport, really. So it's never easy, I think.

Cory Nagler [00:08:07]: Sorry. But when you say get there yourself, so in this instance, I still had a vehicle to take me back even though I had to get to the nearest medical tent. Are you saying most races have nothing? Like, you're fully responsible to to find your own way back?

Coach Hayley [00:08:20]: I imagine well, I feel that they do have them. It's just not something that I kinda considered. Like, I was lucky in this case that I was not injured, and I was able to kind of walk around, and it was not particularly ill. So I didn't even it just didn't come up, honestly, like the public transport network. So it was so good in both of those cases that it just seemed like the easiest thing to do. But, yeah, there's nearly I think there's probably they probably have to have some kind of vehicle. And in the Ultra that I did that was the case in the Ultra that I did. However, the vehicle just dropped me off at a bus stop, and then I had to wait for a bus, but I believe that it was, like, an official kind of race bus, but it was not a fun experience for sure.

Coach Hayley [00:09:08]: So, yeah, I guess I've used, like, a combination of of ways to get back whether it's relying on the race and its own organization or just taking public transport myself, I don't yeah. I guess it depends what state you're in when you DNF as to what's the most appropriate option you're in. You don't wanna, you know, if it's a medical thing, there's obviously gonna be some kind of precautions and safety that the race is taking to make sure you're safe. It's it's more when you DNF, but you're still kinda well and you're still able to kinda get yourself back, that the that is kind of a different a different story, I guess.

Cory Nagler [00:09:49]: Yeah. And I don't wanna spend too too much time on exactly what happens because I know today I really wanna talk more about sort of what goes into the decision to DNF and also what to do afterwards. But again, I I wanna paint a picture because this is something even as somebody who's been running for years, I'm not fully briefed on on exactly how to manage getting to the start. And and again, I I was lucky enough that it's only happened to me once. But for me in that marathon, and I think a lot of marathoners are in the same boat, I wasn't carrying my keys. I wasn't carrying my wallet. I wasn't carrying my phone. Maybe a little bit more common to carry more on you on an ultra.

Cory Nagler [00:10:27]: But if a race doesn't have a vehicle, like, have you had to navigate the streets even in that situation and figure out how to get to the start?

Coach Hayley [00:10:36]: Yeah. You know, I think the reason we're not sure about it is just because every race is different and every race has different provisions. If you read the race guide and all that, it probably tells you quite clearly, but I think maybe we're optimistic and we never want to look at it in case of a DNF, which I've realized since doing ultras that it it's a good idea to look at what happens in case of DNF, but it was something I never thought of in, like, half marathons and marathons. So, yeah, I think you don't have anything on you, do you? I mean, I occasionally used to put like a little bit of money in a pocket or something for like a taxi or something, but not always. And I think what saved me when I dropped out the London Marathon is just that if you if you're a runner of of the race, if you show your number, you get on the London Underground for free plus a load of local knowledge. I was just able to use Achieve to get back. But I remember in Amsterdam, without the local knowledge, not sure if they gave free travel, possibly they did give free public transport, I'm not sure, to the runners. But I remember it being a much more awful experience when you don't know you don't know the location, you don't know your way around.

Coach Hayley [00:11:44]: Like, I lived in London. I could I can navigate my way around quite well, know what tube stops go to and everything, but it actually can be a bit scary, especially if you're well but not feeling, you know, not feeling a % if you dropped out due to like a GI issue or, you know, you're very fatigued. It's it's actually kind of sounded a bit of a horrible experience, I think. I don't I remember being a little bit sort of anxious about it in Amsterdam and thinking, oh god. What's gonna happen? You know? Am I gonna be okay? How am I gonna get back? Sort of thing. Like, I I assumed I would eventually, but it would yeah. I think maybe we could do with putting more of our our thinking and our prep into that even though it it does that element of, oh, I don't wanna prepare for it because, you know, would it make it more likely to happen? But I guess from a safety perspective, it can be quite helpful.

Cory Nagler [00:12:30]: Yeah. I think that applies in a a lot of aspects of running where there's a lot that can go wrong and it's it's more helpful to prepare for it than it is to ignore it. But I I know as we were talking before the show or when I first approached you with the idea, you were saying that you're actually a big advocate for athletes embracing the DNF and and being prepared for one. So given all we've just said about how it can be quite uncomfortable to be in that situation, why do you think so many runners are averse to DNFs, and why is it you feel that they maybe shouldn't be?

Coach Hayley [00:13:00]: Yeah. I think they often see it as kind of a bit of a failure because, you you know, we hear a lot of stories like in social media, online and things about, you know, be tough, just finish at any cost, and that's the whole, like, go hard or go home mentality. And people kind of think that if they drop out, they they failed in some way and they're not tough and they see it as a reflection on on them not having that mental resilience perhaps. I think that's that's a big part of it which is is not right at all in my opinion. I think you can it can be the kind of harder and more mentally tough decision to drop out sometimes. So I think that's a big part of it. I also think that, you know, there's that investment side of things where you think I've paid for all this, I've put in so much time training, I've sacrificed, like, time with family, going to things with friends to do all the training for this and now I'm dropping out and that can be especially worse if you've said to people that you care about like, you know, I can't do this with you because I'm trained at this race today and then, you know, you feel almost like you're letting them down if you don't complete it. I know, I felt like I'm letting people down if I drop out before, and that can that can feel horrible, you know, because people will, in a very well meaning way, say, like, you know, you've got this.

Coach Hayley [00:14:18]: I know you can do it. You finish. Go on. Like and then when you do drop out, you feel like you're letting them down, and it's a really horrible feeling. I've definitely had that happen quite a lot. I've had the situation where a friend has offered to pace me in a race and I've dropped out, and then you think, god, they've just, you know, they've gone to that trouble of pacing me. I want to run well for them, especially if they're really encouraging, enthusiastic friend and they're going, come on, you can do it. And then you you sort of drop out, and it feels horrible.

Coach Hayley [00:14:41]: Like, I think that comes into it quite a lot. I and then, you know, some people's families, like, I know my mom, for example, she she always, you know, she'll say to me four races, oh, you're tough. You can do this. You know, she, at some of my ultras, she's been like, oh you know just finish at any cost, you can like because it's just how she thinks it should be, but I think it's it's not really right and it although they possibly don't know any better and they're well meaning and everything, it's not the best thing to say to someone because there are a lot of situations where DNF is the sensible option, it is the toughest option, and it's the best option for your kind of longer term running, and, just finish at all costs isn't really a helpful, sort of mantra to have or a helpful thing to say to someone, in my opinion.

Cory Nagler [00:15:26]: Okay. So you've just said it can be helpful. There's a lot of instances when you might wanna consider it. What are those examples, or when should you, as a runner, whatever the distance, consider DNFing?

Coach Hayley [00:15:37]: Yeah. So I guess probably one of the most important ones is if you do have an injury or or, like, a health concern that is actually dangerous for you and it's gonna cause you kinda long term problems. There's just no sense in continuing, in that situation. Like, for example, when I twisted my ankle, continuing to run my ankle, I might twist it again. It might have actually broken. That could have been a sort of a really long time out, whereas stopping on that twisted ankle, I was back running in a couple of weeks, but, it could have been so different if I tried to force through that because I might have been too, I might have been able to hobble my way at least a bit further, but what would I have gained from it, really? And that's an injury where it's getting worse. You can't run, you know, you can't run as as you like. You possibly you're risking some long term damage.

Coach Hayley [00:16:24]: There's just no sense in continuing there. And as much as you might want to and you might think, oh, I really wanna tough this out. You know, I'm I can take this pain. There's just no sense in it really. Because you're gonna wanna do other races in future. And if you hurt yourself and you end up having to have months out, it's not not conducive to your to your long term running. Same with, like, you you know, if you're racing when you're ill, it's it's dangerous, quite frankly, in a lot of situations. Like, you're actually probably in your racing.

Coach Hayley [00:16:52]: Like, you know, perhaps you don't realize quite how ill you are, and then you start to feel worse when you're running. You know, if you and that might be like a preexisting illness, or it might be an illness like you've got heat stroke or, something that came up during the race. And I just I just think there's no sense in continuing that situation actually putting yourself at risk. And sometimes it's hard to know if you are in that situation. I think I mean, it was helpful for me when I I hurt my ankle to have those medical tent volunteers say, look. We don't want you to continue running because it's hard when it's all on you sometimes because you can kinda kid yourself a bit sometimes, like, you know, it's just a little strain. I can keep going or I'm not feeling that bad really. But I think if someone is in, like, a medical position within the race says that you should not be continuing, then, like take their advice, they're there to look after you and, you know, they they probably are a better judge of of your current state than you are at that point in a race, especially if you're quite far into the race, so I think that's really important.

Coach Hayley [00:17:56]: So those kind of injury, illness, health ones, they're really big ones and you know there's not not really any grey areas there. If you're risking any kind of long term damage or long term any sort of long term damage, you should definitely be stopping. It's not worth it for one race. There's there's ones that are a bit more difficult, like one reason people might DNF is if they set out with like a goal in mind, like a BQ or qualifying for like a London good range time or something, and they they know, like, kind of halfway that it's just not happening today for some reason. Maybe it's just not their day or they've messed something up, like, I know not fuelled properly early on, didn't get a good night's sleep, something like that. You know, that can be a reason to stop because if you stop then before you push too far, you might be able to have another go in a in a couple of weeks and and try again in a different marathon. So I think, you know, there might not be anything wrong with you. You might be able to continue to the end, but I think something like that can be a really valid reason.

Coach Hayley [00:18:56]: Obviously, it depends it will depend on, like, your personal situation, how much you've invested in that race. You know, something like, for example, I've I've done, like, local half marathons to try and get, like, a championship time to get me into the London marathon. And you know, I haven't really paid a lot for it or spent a lot of time getting there, and if you get to sort of 10 k, you're like, wow, I'm never gonna make it. I'm not on time for that time that I want, but there's a half marathon next week, and I might be feeling better then because I had a couple of late nights or whatever, then, like, it absolutely does make sense, not failure to stop and and just sort of say, okay. I'm gonna stop this one. I'm gonna try again. Like, that's, like, a really personal decision, and it depends what that race means to you and, you know, what your goals are going forward. But I think that can be a really valid reason too.

Cory Nagler [00:19:49]: And I I think there's a bit of a difference between a DNF, like, dropping out of the race is is we're talking about in a DNS, did not start. So we actually don't tow the line. So maybe let's put aside stuff coming up during the race. But if you're going in, say, you have a bit of a cold or you maybe have some ningles or a more minor injury, how do you draw that decision, either as an athlete yourself or if you're coaching an athlete in that position on whether to even tow the line or or maybe if you do tow the line on how to prepare yourself for a situation where you might wanna DNF.

Coach Hayley [00:20:23]: Yeah. That one's so tough because, honestly, it's so hard to know. And I think my recent ultra that I did finish and was so proud of because, you know I really thought that I wasn't going to and I'd had two DNSs leading up to it. I was so nearly a DNS, like so nearly and I think that that could have gone so differently. And, yeah, I chose to to just have a go, and I and we might talk about this later, but I put in I actually prepared the DNS in that case. It's so to make it a bit less scary for myself, but so I could just give it a go but not really risk anything. But actually, that might have even contributed to going well, in the end, I guess. But what happened in that situation was I actually fell over two days before, like, quite badly, like, completely kind of wiped out on the chair and bruised my entire, like, left side.

Coach Hayley [00:21:18]: And I actually found it very hard to take a deep breath, and I thought this is not a good situation to be in, to run. Like, this is this, you know, but in that situation, I was like, well, it's probably not gonna make it worse. You know, it might I to be honest, I was I was on the verge of not starting that one, but I did start it. And then in the race, I actually hardly felt it and obviously didn't didn't kind of hurt it going forward. So that was not a DNS, and it could easily have been. So I'm so I appreciate it's actually a really hard decision to make because there's other times where I've DNFed, and I actually wished I'd just DNFed. Because sometimes a DNS hurts a little bit less than a DNF, I think. Obviously, it varies, but I know that in the past when I've chosen to DNF from the start because I've been carrying a little cold or a little niggle, sometimes it's actually hurt a lot less than trying mentally, I mean, than actually starting the race and then ending up stopping, which can feel quite terrible, to be honest.

Cory Nagler [00:22:17]: So in summary, leave it up to a coach and outsource the decision, or how

Coach Hayley [00:22:21]: do you make

Cory Nagler [00:22:21]: that call?

Coach Hayley [00:22:22]: I think it's really hard. Like, a coach can be super helpful in that situation. Definitely someone who's kind of outside of the situation. For me, I think it was my husband because he could kinda see in a more detached view. I was just panicking and thinking, oh god, what if I can't run? You know, it's like quite remote terrain. I don't wanna drop out. And, that was kind of when we talked through maybe some some strategies for dropping out safely if it did feel too painful. But, also drawing on kind of past experiences where I had things like that and then actually because you're not really you although you're, like, you're obviously, you're using your breathing muscles to run, but because they're not because there's so many other kind of things going on, perhaps you don't really feel it too much if, obviously, if something had been broken or actually damaged, you know, that would have been a different story.

Coach Hayley [00:23:09]: But, kind of surface bruising and all that is possibly something that it it, you know, is probably not gonna cause any longer term damage apart from being a bit painful. So it's about, you know, thinking what is the worst case scenario here. I think, yeah, I think it's it's really helpful to have someone to help you with those situations because they can be really hard and, you can feel like you're really letting people down when you DNS as well. Like, I'm not gonna lie, one of the reasons I ended up starting Yorkshire was a little bit because I, you know, some people are saying to me, oh, just give it a go. And I thought, well, I can't let these people down, and we've already traveled here. I might as well just do, you know, few miles. And, yeah, it's it's really that's a tough one as well. I think if there is a way to give it a go safely and you're not risking any damage of any sort, that might be a good option as well.

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Cory Nagler [00:26:43]: Again, that's slumbercbn.com/runnersconnect. Yeah. And I think you you draw that line of are you gonna do any damage and, of course, that's not always an easy thing to assess. But that assessment seems to look a little bit different for the amateur athlete versus the pros. I noticed that there's always pros at every race who don't even show up to the start line. And then from what I can tell, I don't have any stats to back this up, but it it seems like the percentage who drop out is much higher. I've seen races where it's as as much as, like, 50% of the pro field will drop out. And, obviously, these are incredibly talented athletes who are more than capable of finishing.

Cory Nagler [00:27:29]: So why do you think it is that that calculation looks a little bit different at the elite end?

Coach Hayley [00:27:33]: Yeah. I think there's a cup there's, like, there's many reasons for that really, but I think, obviously, because it's their job, they are taking that kind of that attitude of if they're not gonna hit their goal that day, it's probably best to to drop out and try again when they're feeling okay. I think perhaps because it's their job, they might also take some more risks. They might have people to tell them that it's okay to take that risk. So they might have a physio say to them, look, this might hurt, but you're not gonna do any damage, so therefore they give it a go, and it does hurt and they have to drop out. I think another part of it is just that they might get paid to start the race, so they get that money even if they DNF, I think that might be a big part of it in a lot of cases. I know, I've had a friend tell me that before, so yeah which is fair enough, it's their job, they need to make a living, there's no shame in that. So yeah, many reasons, like, and as well I guess they've put so much into it that they think even if they're not great, they're not feeling great, they've got something that hurts, they think we need to give this a go.

Coach Hayley [00:28:42]: It might be their last chance to qualify for something, which is and qualifying for that thing might be like huge for them as their job, and, their rewards are kind of bigger, so to speak.

Cory Nagler [00:28:54]: Yeah. The the financial incentive piece is interesting. I think a lot of people don't know that these athletes, there's prize money for winning or placing, but the best athletes and at the largest races, there's often appearance fees too. And sometimes they're even contingent on where you get in the race. For example, I ran Valencia this past December, and I know Bekele, who was one of the favorites, was up near the front pack, and it was exactly at the 30 k mark. He suddenly walked off. And I have a feeling that that probably had a something to do with those appearance fees.

Coach Hayley [00:29:24]: Yeah. Most likely. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:29:28]: Yeah. So let's let's say runners have made that decision for one reason or another to to drop out of the race. I think that still often leaves you in an interesting position. Like, it can be very tough psychologically to to bounce back from that. And oftentimes, it's it's tied, as you mentioned, to some type of sickness or illness or injury. So, I guess, both from a psychological standpoint, but then also physically as well. What do you think your next steps are, after after you've made that decision in a race?

Coach Hayley [00:29:59]: Yeah. I mean, once you've got yourself back safely and you've kind of addressed what you can address in terms of how you're feeling and what's wrong with you, I think it's really important to let yourself be really sad about it, like, which can be hard because you can be with all these people who are celebrating finishing or whatever or, like, people or people who don't say the right things. But it is important to be kind of sad about it because we put in so much work and it, like, it means so much to us. That's why we do it, and it can feel awful DNFing, like, it can feel truly terrible, like, it's just not a nice feeling. I don't even know what it compares to really, like, it's just yeah. It's a really horrible feeling. You feel like you're letting people down and people, and maybe if someone's, you know, helped you out in the training or helped you, by even, like, you know, even something like looking after your kids so you can raise or something, you know, people have helped you and you've dropped out. I think that's really hard.

Coach Hayley [00:30:52]: So definitely give yourself time to to be sad about it. Like, but set a time limit on it. Because I think you don't wanna be wallowing in your misery for weeks. Like, I always give myself, like, a certain amount of time to be really sad and grumpy, and then kind of a time when I need to pull myself out of it. And then once I've done that, like, and my head's a bit clearer and it's not so emotional, I tend to, like, analyse what went wrong and see if it could be prevented. And often you can get some really good takeaways, like, you know, from my getting lost experience, I I definitely take a lot more care to look at where I need to go and any points that could be confusing. And, I recceed the whole course for my most recent opticians because I was so scared of getting lost. I think it helped.

Coach Hayley [00:31:36]: Then for my ankle twist experience, I, like, put in a really good kind of program of strengthening, and stability for my ankles, which is helping me generally, I think. So you can often get a lot of good kind of learning points from a DNF, and so it is important to do that analysis. Yeah. Just trying to think of any other really good learning experiences I've got. You know, obviously, sometimes it's just it's just a bit rubbish and something happening. You can't perhaps learn too much from it. But I think in a lot of cases, there's there's something to be learned. I've had, like, GI issues causing me to drop out before, and that's led to, you know, more GI training, trying new things that don't cause problems for me, using more stuff in training than I'm gonna use on race day.

Coach Hayley [00:32:19]: You know, like, all the all the good advice that you know you should you should take when you're doing that kind of thing, but you don't always. So, yeah. So you take away those learning experiences, analyse, and make some points that you can you can build on next time, that you can maybe implement into your training or into your, like, race prep strategy. Yeah. And it might not even be something that you can incorporate. It might be something like, okay. I actually didn't like this, and I don't wanna do that kind of race again. Like, when I dropped out of my last road marathon, what I took from that was, actually, I'm just not enjoying road marathons anymore.

Coach Hayley [00:32:52]: I need to take like, it's actually, like, soul destroying for me now. Like, I don't want to do this for now. Like, I want to try something else, and that's a good learning thing too. And it was and it was a great learning point because otherwise, I think if I hadn't had the experience, I might just kept trying with the road running and not really getting much from it and actually feeling kind of unhappy about it and not enjoying it. And, actually, I've had a great couple of years since then doing some trial racing and ultra rapid. So even something like that can be can be a good learning experience, whether that's, you know, something like go to the physio and work out why this is getting injured, or I need to do this in training. You know, there's so much you can learn. So, yeah, I think that's really important too.

Coach Hayley [00:33:33]: And then, you know, once it's kind of sensible to do so, get back into training, kinda get back on the horse. That's always that's actually really helpful, I think. Just, you know, make sure you do take that time to be sad and to analyze, but getting back in training and having another goal to work on is actually really good therapy, I think.

Cory Nagler [00:33:49]: Haley, this almost sounds like a breakup as you're describing it, where there's, like, kind of

Coach Hayley [00:33:52]: a a

Cory Nagler [00:33:52]: sad period or a morning, and then you move on and get back to it.

Coach Hayley [00:33:56]: You know, when I was trying to think of something that's most similar to the viewing with DNF, maybe that feels a bit like it, you know? Maybe on a kinda it's maybe not has doesn't have such serious, repercussions, but it that feeling is just a little taste of that breakup feeling, maybe.

Cory Nagler [00:34:15]: So may may maybe I won't judge as I I I know, you're you're happily married at the moment, but, without drawing too many parallels to a breakup, how long is the warning period before you get back to training and racing?

Coach Hayley [00:34:27]: I guess I guess it depends on the partner that you broke up from. So Let's

Cory Nagler [00:34:33]: call that partner a marathon.

Coach Hayley [00:34:35]: Yeah. So yeah. That really depends on on why you why you dropped out, really. Obviously, if you have an injury or an illness, you need to get that sorted before you think about going back into training and you think about your next race. You don't wanna just be carrying that injury and not you need to fix that. Whatever was causing that pain and that problem, you need to get that sorted and you don't wanna just because you're feeling disappointed, it's not a reason to start training with an injury or when you're not well. So I think those kind of things, if you dropped out because of a medical concern, those kind of things will guide your recovery and how long you take off. It's very definite if you dropped out because you weren't gonna meet your goal.

Coach Hayley [00:35:16]: You know, you've probably made like a calculated decision there that you're only gonna run as far as that you can recover in a few days and get training again. So, you know, or or if it was just a GI issue that made itself known kinda early on, something like that, you might be able to get back into training pretty quickly. I think one reason one point is when you drop out because you're not hitting your goal time, and the reason is that you just feel awful, and you're not running well, and you just feel kind of, you know, you're you're just not feeling yourself and you're running. I think that's when it's very because I'm talking about this particular situation because there's something that's happened to me in the past. I've learned a lot from it. It's very easy when you've not performed as you hoped to kind of want to get back into training and do another race quite quickly. But often, even if you think it was just a bad day, if you've had a string of bad days and you haven't been feeling yourself in training, it could be indicative of something more like under fuelling or overtraining syndrome. And I know that that has happened to me in the past.

Coach Hayley [00:36:19]: And I've had bad races where I've actually dropped out because I've been so far off what I wanted. And I just kept trying to get back into training, get back into training, get to the next one. I just had that same repeated experience, and actually, that was prior to me kind of learning more about coaching, getting into that when I didn't perhaps know about these kind of things like overtraining. And, yeah, it's really easy to just keep pushing and getting the same result, and that was a kind of a string of DNS there. And it probably would have been better to kind of look into why the poor performance was happening early. So that's something to look out for because it's easy to write that off as a bad day. But when it's happening multiple times, it's time to, like, investigate that as a medical concern as well. Like, whether that's getting blood tests or, speaking to your doctor, that's, like, it's very important to consider, I think.

Cory Nagler [00:37:11]: And if there is no injury or long term harm, I I think, to me, there's kind of two general approaches you can take. There is where you get right back to it, and you're essentially plotting your next race versus sort of hitting the reset button and maybe, you know, if you're in the fall, you think towards the spring, or if you're in the spring, you think towards the fall. Do you typically edge your athletes towards one or the other, or is it really situational?

Coach Hayley [00:37:36]: Yeah. It's really situational and, like, depends on on the feelings you get from kinda talking to them because there's there's so many things to consider, like, that that reason for the dropping out. And, like, you know, if they're looking to hit a goal and there was a specific reason why despite being the shape to hit that goal, they didn't hit it. But you think perhaps with some tweaks or maybe just on a different day, where they perhaps weren't carrying a slight cold or whatever, they could do it and that's maybe a time to to have another go quite quickly. Whereas if it is something more like that overtraining or perhaps a injury that's bugged them for some time, I think then you really need to think about resetting and just really, you know, fixing things and starting again. The other thing is it really depends on their motivation, like you can get a sense from talking to them how they're feeling about going again quite soon. Sometimes people and they might not recognize it themselves. They just need a rest.

Coach Hayley [00:38:28]: Like, they just need a mental rest from racing. And, actually, the best thing to do would be to take a bit of time and just go for, like, you know, go for a few months with a different goal before going for that goal again. If someone's, tried to go for the same goal maybe several times and just not hit it, and they're kind of saying, oh, but I wanna go again, but you think perhaps actually, they're not hitting it now because they're just mentally exhausted and, you know, they need a bit of a break, a longer break, then that's time to just kind of reset and pause for a bit, I think. So it really is quite situational and depends on the athlete and how they're feeling and and the reason for that DNF. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Cory Nagler [00:39:09]: And so if you are going back for another race, obviously, there's still some structural damage you've done from running a certain proportion of the race, whether that's a quarter or a half or three quarters. So say I've dropped out at the halfway mark of a marathon, had a bit of a cold. I really wanna target another race this season. Maybe I'm trying to b q or just set a PR. What what what do my next few days or even my next couple weeks look like in terms of, like, getting ready for that next race?

Coach Hayley [00:39:37]: Yeah. So I think this this has changed a bit in more, like, recent years since we've had the super shoes, and people generally fuel a lot more. I think the damage that is done is is perhaps a bit less and people bounce back a lot quicker, especially as super shoes, you know, they're kind of protecting the body a bit better and perhaps people aren't so beat up. So I think my advice is probably a bit different to what it used to be where if you run, like, a half marathon at marathon pace, I'd be like, okay. Probably need to be careful of, like, a little bit. I think it's more like now to see how people respond, like, give them some, like, maybe, like, three rest days or whatever, but then get back into easy running quite quickly and just see how the body's responding. Things like strides can be really helpful, you know. Again, it's quite individual, because people respond, recover at different rates, and it will depend on things like how well they were able to fuel in it and and how much that kind of took out of them and maybe their background mileage because that's gonna determine how much of an effort that really was for them.

Coach Hayley [00:40:31]: But, you could in a lot of cases, you can probably just treat it like if they're sort of healthy in themselves and that in general, you can just treat it like it was a really big workout, you know. You can kind of as long as they're they're paying attention to the refueling and they're not in any states or kinda like depletion or anything and they're getting all those all those calories back in quite quickly. Yeah. I think you can treat it like a really big workout. But then you look out for for warning signs when you're getting back into it. You know, like, if there's if there is persistent soreness or, like, fatigue, then it's probably gonna take a bit longer to recover.

Cory Nagler [00:41:08]: Yeah. I think one of the terms that my coaches use between races, if they're sort of both goal races or both all out is the reverse taper. So the same way you might sort of, edge down your training as you get closer to the race. It's like you you start much lower training to give your body a rest, but you sort of gradually ramp it back up.

Coach Hayley [00:41:25]: Yeah. Absolutely. I'm a fan of the reverse taper. I I think of it as that when I recover from ultras, you know, I kinda start with with that kind of, gradual easy running and then adding strides. And I think just adding, like, non non draining speed workouts like strides, maybe, like, bigger sets of strides or whatever, like, you know, or just faster surges. Quite early on can be really good in kind of getting nervous system feeling good again and also assessing where the body's at. So I don't really I don't tend to hold back with introducing faster stuff as long as there's not, like, high volumes of faster stuff. I think that can actually be helpful in the recovery process, especially things like strides and surges.

Coach Hayley [00:42:07]: But I don't like them to get back into longer runs so quickly. I think that's something to be more aware of.

Cory Nagler [00:42:14]: So you took the really aggressive approach and you were gonna try again in, like, two weeks. Would you do any long runs in between, or do you focus entirely on recovery and just getting in a few strides?

Coach Hayley [00:42:24]: I think I I would be wary of long runs and be more like, it depends on the context of, like, how far they ran and what they did because that's kind of acting as a long run and and the race that they're preparing for. But, really, I think you wanna be careful with long runs and focus more on easy running, but but still activating that speed element. So getting in the stride, maybe some short race pace workouts, but but pretty short. So, like, you might wanna do it. If you're doing a marathon, you might wanna get back to doing, like, high, lower volume workouts with some marathon pace, just to, you know, recalibrate your body to that kind of effort level. But long runs, I think I'd be pretty careful with those.

Cory Nagler [00:43:10]: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's my experience. And I guess it depends on the period of time too. I think two weeks without a long run probably isn't gonna impact you so much. It really takes two weeks to even start losing fitness. But I I find if I go, you know, once you get close to a month, it starts to feel like it's a little off if you get into the race without having done any long runs.

Coach Hayley [00:43:30]: Yeah. I can definitely. And, like, mentally as well, I think it can play on your mind if you if you know you've been a while since that long run. But I think that depends on the athlete as well because, some athletes, it's not such an issue. Like, I feel, like, in particular, some female athletes, they just don't need the the long runs as much. I think, myself would be a good example of this. I I can go quite a long time without a long run and still feel okay as long as I'm getting in kind of, some harder some kind of spices of harder running. But I think some people need those long runs more than others.

Coach Hayley [00:44:04]: And it's about, like, looking at the athlete's specific kind of sort of situation and their strengths and weaknesses too.

Cory Nagler [00:44:13]: Do you consider that a physiological difference or is it more a psychological difference when you say that women might be, you know, better able to perform without long runs?

Coach Hayley [00:44:23]: Yeah. I think it's kind of a bit of both. I mean, I'm actually not aware of, you know, any research on that. It's just a feeling I kind of got from coaching different athletes.

Cory Nagler [00:44:34]: Mhmm.

Coach Hayley [00:44:35]: I think it might be, yeah, a bit of both. I know for myself, it's kind of a self fulfilling thing because I think, you know, I don't need too many long runs and that I, feel okay, you know. And the I think as well, the background of mileage, if someone's run a lot of mileage in the past and their general mileage is high, those long runs become less important.

Cory Nagler [00:45:00]: Yeah. Yeah. I've certainly found that. It's like if you have weeks and weeks of training behind you, you can sometimes get by without those long runs. But, you know, if you've had a condensed training cycle or you've had to take other time off for sickness and stuff like that, I think that becomes a little bit more key if you are trying to hit a performance goal.

Coach Hayley [00:45:17]: Yeah. Definitely. Like, I think those longer runs are more important for lower mileage athletes as well. I think my background of twenty years of running is one of the reasons why I don't need to reinforce those long runs as much. Much.

Cory Nagler [00:45:31]: Very cool. So you we talked earlier in the show about why you might consider DNFing. You know, you might be forced to for various reasons. But you talked about how there can actually be benefits to it, and you can actually come out stronger if you DNF. Can you expand a little bit more on that? And what are some of the other reasons why you maybe wanna prepare for and even consider DNFing in a race?

Coach Hayley [00:45:54]: Yeah. I think it has a coming out stronger for me. It was just a sense of knowing that if I DNF'd, it would still be okay and, like, it it wouldn't define me as a runner and I'd get back to it. I think that helped. And then just the learning the learnings that I took away from the DNFs were really helpful. I think I almost had to go through those to to have some okay performances. But then I think preparing the DNF is kind of something which really has helped me and something that I might, like, talk to athletes a bit more in, like, pre race course and that without without making it seem like I expect it or or, that it's kind of a desirable outcome, mostly. But, with the ultra I did, I I sort of realized with the previous ultras, I'd almost been worried about those DNS because I was thinking how would I get back? Would I be kind of on my own in like a remote area? So really, I just I just got a friend to come to my most recent ultra with me and like to appear at certain points, knowing that they could kind of pick me up, and sort of save me if I DNF'd.

Coach Hayley [00:47:09]: And I think, that can be really helpful because a lot of time in a longer race like a marathon or an ultra, you might get to a point where you think, like, you don't know if you can make it. You don't know if something's gonna become an issue, But there's a safe point where you can drop out like an aid station, you think rather than continuing and like then you might drop out somewhere risky, it's best to just kind of drop out at that point. And there are probably points in that ultra that I did recently where I might have took the decision to drop out because something had started hurting because I think, in ultra she can go through cycles where stuff hurts for a bit and then it doesn't hurt and then it hurts again, or different stuff hurts. And if you think from a safety perspective, you've got to drop out of that aid station or whatever, then you might not take that chance of it kind of easing off or you feeling better. But by knowing I had someone who was gonna show up more frequently, it just allowed me to take a few more risks that then everything turned out to be okay, because I could, like, take risks safely perhaps. And, obviously, it's not possible for everyone, but, like, I think sometimes having a bit of a support crew, if you can rope in a friend or a family member can be can be helpful to just allow you to, like, relax a little bit and, you know, not feel that you have to make that decision right now because you're at a safe point to make that decision. And I don't know whether that's more like something that just helped me, but I think I think I could see how it could be useful for athletes to take a bit more of a chance if something seems to be going wrong and you're not sure if you can rescue it or not. Obviously, not when it's a health concern or a true injury concern, but sometimes you do get things where you think, is this gonna ease off? Am I gonna feel better? And it just allows you to take that chance with those things.

Cory Nagler [00:48:59]: Yeah. I don't wanna twist your words, but just, just to kind of paraphrase or or interpret what you said, it sounds like whereas a lot of runners are maybe afraid to prepare for the DNF and they worry that it will hinder them to have that safety net, you're saying you found it almost liberating in in that it allowed you to perform better knowing that you had that support. Is that fair?

Coach Hayley [00:49:23]: Yeah. Definitely. I think it allowed me to feel a bit more relaxed and a bit less scared about it because I was getting quite intimidated by the distance and the terrain of that one. And, yeah, it just allowed me to relax a bit to think that, you know, it'd be okay, whatever. And I'm definitely gonna do the same for my May Ultra, which is even a bit longer, so in a bit more terrible terrain. So just having that, I think it's just gonna allow me to feel a bit more relaxed about it. And sometimes, you know, when you panic, that kinda sends you down a spiral of, I know I've had it in an ultra sort of started panicking a bit, thought like, you know, oh my god. Do I need to drop out? Because what if I start to feel worse? Then I'm kind of out here on my own feeling terrible, but having that reassurance, it's kinda stops you panicking, and then you can, you know, your systems can kinda come back to normal and you can feel a bit better again.

Coach Hayley [00:50:12]: So

Cory Nagler [00:50:14]: Yeah. So you have a lot more experience with this than I do, but I I definitely wanna start adopting that mindset because I think, to me, that seems hugely positive if you can view it as almost like permission to to go all out and push your limits knowing that you you can drop out. But from yourself, you're maybe I don't know if you define yourself as pro, but certainly a very fast runner with a lot of experience dropping out of races. For anyone listening who, you know, has races coming up or might have just dropped out of a race or has experience in the past, do you have any other words of wisdom or pieces for advice pieces of advice rather?

Coach Hayley [00:50:50]: Yeah. I guess the main one of the main things I want to to kinda get across is is that sort of feeling that a DNF isn't a failure. It doesn't have to be thought of as a failure, and it doesn't define you as a person or a runner. And it's something that most people experience at some point. And I think if, you know, it can also be seen as a sign that you're exploring your limits and you're taking risk. If you're never doing effing, perhaps you're not really doing things that take you outside of your comfort zone anyway. So I think always think of that d n f as, wow. I tried to do something brave, like, it didn't pay off.

Coach Hayley [00:51:24]: Like, I tried to tell myself that after I dropped out of my one of my alters last year. I thought, like, I really tried to run that 70 miles or whatever, and I think, you know, that was quite brave of me to try because when I used to just see my hands all the time, which are scary in different ways, I probably wouldn't have even considered that I would dare to enter something like a 70 miles, so the fact that I was DNFing, you know, I was I was actually putting myself out there and exploring that the limits of that comfort zone, and I think that's actually something to be celebrated as well. So I think that's important to remember that if you're DNFing, you're you're putting yourself out there, and that's, like, something to celebrate. So, take that positive away and don't feel this reflection that you don't have that mental toughness or that you're not resilient because, to be honest, the people who push through the pain and injury are not necessarily the tough ones, because taking tough decision would be to drop out, and save themselves from harm. So don't don't think that that DNF has to be a bad negative thing is is the main thing I think that we want to say today.

Cory Nagler [00:52:29]: Yeah. I think that's a huge positive. Like, I'll say, again, turning our attention to the elites, seeing Bekele drop out at 30 k doesn't mean that he wasn't an incredible athlete who's run under, you know, two zero two many times in the marathon. I think, that to me seems what the elite side of the sport has done is really embrace the DNF and and view it as kind of just an essential part of the sport when you're pushing your limits. And I think, you know, it's all for the better if other amateur athletes that are trying to achieve their personal best can do the same.

Coach Hayley [00:52:58]: Definitely. It's part of running, and it's part of pushing yourself. And yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:53:04]: Cool. Well, I'm gonna strive to do that. Definitely, you know, pushing myself as a runner and and also as a person and to push those limits. And, I appreciate it. I think maybe this conversation started a little on the negative side and why DNF can be scary, but I like that running on a positive note. And then it can actually be, you know, sort of very, very liberating and and almost a growth moment to be embracing the DNF.

Coach Hayley [00:53:26]: Yeah. Absolutely. I think one thing I'm gonna do is say that I'm I am gonna DNF in future races because I want to try some more things that I'm scared of and that's probably gonna result in some DNFs, but, like, I'm okay with that. And that's that's because I'm gonna try some scary stuff and some stuff that, you know, is is exciting, but also but also frightening. So, yeah, don't fear the DNF.

Cory Nagler [00:53:49]: Amazing. I love it. I think that's the perfect note to end on. Don't fear the DNF. Haley, thanks for joining me.

Coach Hayley [00:53:55]: Thanks for having me on.

Cory Nagler [00:54:11]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at Corey underscore Nagler. Birth your Strava by searching Corey Nagler, and please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast. Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, then consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.net/podcast. I'll see you on the next show. But until then, happy running, everyone.