Underrated vs Overrated: Nutrition Edition | Part 2

Finn Melanson [00:00:09]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn Malanson, and this is the run to the top podcast. The podcast dedicated to making you a better runner with each and every episode. We are created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running in for on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:00:38]: Welcome back to part 2 of our overrated or underrated series on running nutrition. Last week, our coaches, Andy and

Finn Melanson [00:00:43]: Michael, walked us through how runners should be thinking about using protein supplements in which of some commonly taken vitamins are beneficial for runners. If you've not already listened to that episode, you can find part 1 of our underrated versus overrated nutrition edition released July 21st on whatever platform you listen to your podcasts. There's a lot of great insights in that show, and I highly recommend that you go to listen. This week, Andy and Michael are back to finish off this conversation on underrated versus overrated with the topics including can your morning cup of coffee improve running performance? Do you need to take gels for your longer races? Are fasted runs beneficial to your performance? and so much more. There's a lot to cover here, so let's get right into it. If you're looking for a better energy gel that contains no sugar and instead uses a revolutionary slow burning carbohydrate, then you should check out what you can. I'll tell you more about the science later, but you can get a free sample pack by going to runners connect dotnetforward/ukan. That's ucan. If you're tired of sweaty, smelly and stained seats after your runs, then you have to check out the car seat covers made specifically for runners from dry seats. Head to driseats.com to learn more and use code r c 20 to get 20% off your first order.

Cory Nagler [00:02:19]: Welcome back to part 2 of conversation on underrated and overrated nutrition topics. When we wrapped up our previous conversation, we just finished discussing the importance of iron supplementation for runners. I'm going to go ahead and get started with our next nutrition category which is performance enhancers. I'll move on to our next topic which is performance enhancers think when a lot of people hear that they might immediately jump to those EPOs or or steroids or banned substances, so we're not gonna touch on those today. We're gonna keep it to legal substances only. but these are different items that can have a market improvement on your running performance or at least that's the belief. So I'll start with the first one which is nitrates or most commonly found in beet root juice. Maybe Michael, do you wanna start us off? Is this one overrated or underrated?

Michael Hammond [00:03:05]: Sure. I think beet Reduced, I think nitrate is actually underrated. And the reason I say that is because I think of all the things that we're talking about here, this is probably one of the most proven. in terms of the the science on it is is pretty clear. You know, one thing I look at with any sort of supplementation is, like, is this a healthy thing in general? I don't necessarily like to solely look at. Is this a good thing from a running perspective? Because as we know, just because something is is gonna make you a faster runner, necessarily always mean that it's gonna make you healthier. When I look at beetroot juice, I look at something that is almost unequivocally healthy in in small doses. Don't go chug a gallon a day just like with the iron. You know? Don't go crazy on it. But, you know, be reduced interestingly, you know, if I can if I can approach a a sensitive topic is actually, like, for men, it's like a natural alternative to Viagra. I mean, it it's crazy how how well how it can be used. And so would you rather take this drug that can send you to the hospital for reasons you'd rather not repeat, or would you rather take something like beet juice, which is totally healthy and can potentially solve your problem with something completely natural, the way it dilates your blood vessels and stuff. So, you know, you basically you get a liquid. You rich in nitrates when you extract that beet juice. You know, the body tablets it into nitric oxide that can have just a potent effect on you know, it can lower your blood pressure, like I said, dilate the blood vessels. So On the whole, I would say underrated because it has you know, it it pretty unequivocally has good results. At the same time, I do have to add that that we we have some studies that we posted on our our website at Runners Connect that showed that for more elite athletes, like more advanced runners who've been running for a long time and are more experienced, the results are typically smaller or are typically either smaller or even nil potentially. So just something to keep in mind, but but it's so unharmful that I'm gonna say it's it's definitely underrated.

Cory Nagler [00:04:52]: Andy, what are your thoughts? Yeah. I was gonna say

Andie Cozzarelli [00:04:56]: a little overrated. Just because of the perspective of but but I think Michael made a lot of good points as to the fact that beets are still gonna be beneficial to you and healthy for you. So not necessarily a bad thing from that perspective, but you can't just in order to get the benefits that we're talking about from the nitrates perspective, You can't just go eat, like, 6 you have to eat you have to have, like, 6 beats or something like that. So you need a very concentrated formula. So it's hard for you to get it just through eating beets because you would have so much fiber on your gut if you try to go eat 6 beets and then go for a run. Right? So you kinda need to have the supplementation part of that. You need to have the right amount. So to actually see those benefits, you need a super concentrated amount, which is gonna be in the in mostly in the form of some sort of supplement option that you're gonna have to take because, yeah, I think even drinking it, you may not you may you'd have to drink a lot and, again, a lot on the gut. So I think that's where it's a little overrated to me is that you'd still have to go to a supplement. And the the benefits of it from a performance standpoint argue, there's gonna be performance in, like but I I've used it in myself and my own training, and I I I didn't use it when I was in college and totally fine. used it after college just to see how it would work. I don't know if I noticed a huge difference. I tried it, and then I just couldn't choke it down after a while. The the water the formulas that you mix with water. I was kind of forcing it, and then there was one race where I I had made myself drink it, and then I just felt nauseous. And I was like, never I can't do it Can't do it again. So I think from from that perspective, it's you know, from the performance side, you're still gonna you're not gonna get as much of a payoff as, you know, just putting in the work, eating right, healthy diet, all of those things. are number 1. And if you're trying to see if you can get that extra edge and you're doing things well, this is something to try above all of the other options out there for performance enhancements. probably the number one thing to go to next if you you just wanna see if you can get that extra edge.

Michael Hammond [00:06:57]: But, yeah, I think I don't think it's a 100% necessary, though. So that's kind of where that underrated or overrated comes from for me. So -- If if I can add, I I might I might have to change my answer because I I just remembered a quick story. My wife was a 10 k Runner just like just like Andy, and she actually, at one point, went through a phase of you know, she read that beetreduce was effective, and and she was trying to use it. She took it to a meat, and it was in her bag. And then you can probably guess where this is going. She got back home. It had spilled everywhere completely ruined the bag, completely ruined everything within the bag because beats are commonly used as, like, a coloring agent for a lot of products. So just totally ruined everything. So just so you know, from a practical standpoint, be careful with beet root juice. Love

Cory Nagler [00:07:40]: it. That's a good note. I think the the bathroom effects are also one that can be a little alarming for people who are taking a lot of this.

Michael Hammond [00:07:49]: Yep. Use some head nods. It it's weird. You're first your first experience is is a strange one. You think, oh my god. I need to go to the emergency room right now, but the reality is you're totally fine. It just has interesting effects in the in the bathroom.

Cory Nagler [00:08:02]: Yeah. 100%. Not to scarry one off, there can be positive effects, but I'm glad we touched on some of the the side effects to be aware of as well. The next topic we're gonna go into is one that runners might not be quite as familiar with, which is beta alanine. This one's actually a nonessential amino acid believe to buffer lactic acid which naturally can have benefits for runners is the hype real. Michael, do you wanna start us off overrated or underrated?

Michael Hammond [00:08:29]: Sure. I I I think beta alanine is is overrated, and this comes from completely from personal experience. This I I think the science strong. I think the the effects of it are are well understood and well known. But the problem is, like, what did I say at the beginning of this podcast? It's like combining the science also with actual personal experience and and experience working with athletes. The people I've worked with and also just fellow athletes I've known that have tried it The problem is you can have this really weird side effect where you get really tingly and and, like, jittery feeling like like a caffeine, sort of like a caffeine jitter, but almost weirder. Like, It's like your nerves are acting up. People get, like, tingly fingers and stuff, and it's very uncomfortable for people. So this is truly just something from personal experience that I found that people that discomfort doesn't seem to be worth it from, like, an opportunity cost standpoint versus the benefits, so that's why I'm gonna go with overrated.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:09:21]: Yeah. I'd I'd actually I think I'd agree with overrated. I I've used it before. I used to use it as, like, a I tried it, I think, when I had first graduated and I had a supplement and put a little bit in with my pre workout with my I think it was, like, you can. I put a scoop in, and you definitely get this, like, tingling sensation. And I would just feel itchy. So I'd be, like, driving to the run. I just feel itchy myself because of the tingliness. So I didn't love that. feeling. The I use a workout, a pre workout option now that I mix with you can that has it in it, but I use that pre workout because it has caffeine and it also has branch chain amino acids, which is really what I'm going for is to have some of the branch chain amino acids before I run to help sort of sort of prevent some of that muscle breakdown for during, and I felt better doing that and less sore. And so this options just happens to have the beta alanine in it, but I don't know that I necessarily feel any different when I haven't used that supplement versus So sometimes I'll just drink coffee before I run if it's a lighter workout. And, I mean, I don't notice too much of a difference performance wise or how I feel. So I that's where I that kinda comes from is that I don't necessarily think that I'm noticing a big change from using it or not using it. So

Cory Nagler [00:10:32]: Yeah. I'd agree with Michael on this one. Yeah. I haven't taken Betah, l and i myself, but I am noticing a little consensus here just before we completely dismiss it. I know lactic acid plays a little more into the shorter distances, the kind of 5 k and under versus the longer distance training. Do you think that there's any more merit for those runners who might be doing shorter track races.

Michael Hammond [00:10:54]: Michael, you might have a better answer. -- point. Yeah. I I would think so just based on, like you said, just the basic understanding of of its effect on lactic acid. But I think anyone who's doing any type of, like, lactate threshold training again, I think the science is strong. It's just a practical standpoint. It's it's just balancing. That's what so many of these things even if it theoretically has this this incredible effect and and wow. This is gonna help me so much. You have to balance that with that practical effect that I've just seen too many people. I've I've I forgot about the itchy thing. I remember the the tingles everybody had, but I forgot that a lot of people tend to get really itchy. I just at that point, I'm just like, maybe we're getting an overload of this. Maybe the supplements too high of a concentration. Maybe there's things that work synergistically with it that we don't even know about that need to be present at the same time in order to get to not have those effects and yet have the positives. So I I still am gonna stick with overrated. I I don't think it's worth it for people for the vast majority of people to to experiment with, I think there's so many better supplements that are that are out there to to use for similar benefits. Right. And the other thing I'll add too is something I don't know. And even with the beet root, I don't know how

Andie Cozzarelli [00:12:00]: accumulation of it in your system changes. the benefits of them. So I've only used these things as a pre workout because I didn't wanna spend the money to take these supplements every single day of the week. And so You know, I don't know if there's an a benefit to, you know, if you are taking it every day, how does that increase performance? And if you're only taking before run like, my workouts, do I need it be more in my system and do those does the itchiness and the feelings that you're getting? Does it decrease as your body gets used to it? Those are things that I don't necessarily know. So something to look into, I guess, for our listeners.

Cory Nagler [00:12:35]: For sure. Yeah. Do your own research figure out what works for you. I think that's that's gonna be universal advice for sure.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:12:41]: You also once again alluded to our next topic I'm gonna get into, which is caffeine. I think this one is definitely want a lot of redners will be excited to hear about. That morning cup of coffee you take, although it can also be in pill form for caffeine or or various others. Is that gonna benefit your running performance? Indeed, do you wanna start us off? Yeah. So I'd say it's a combination of underrated and overrated because some people don't actually have the same response to caffeine. So for people who do have a healthy respond or not a healthy, but like a normal response to caffeine where it picks them up and it gives them energy, There are studies that have shown that there are performance benefits to drinking caffeine before you exercise, race, do any of those types of things. but there's also a different tolerance level from person to person. So I actually had done genetic testing a while back, like, few several years ago, which showed that I have a a higher sensitivity to caffeine. So there's a certain genetic variation that can say that, like, you shouldn't have very much caffeine. and how much you should limit to it because there could be effects for your heart and different other issues. And so that's where we wanna be mindful of how we actually respond to caffeine. And if you're not responding well to it, then it's not gonna benefit you within racing or training or anything else. But if you take caffeine and you have a a response that you feel good, You're you're going to actually feel better. Your your rate of perceived exertion will be lower. I think it also has an impact on heart rate. So a lot of different things that are beneficial to your overall performance. And so that's where that that copy comes from being beneficial. But and and I don't think there's a huge percentage of people who have a negative reaction but it's just good to recognize that, yes, there is for there are studies. There's a lot of stuff out there that says, yes, it's a good thing. but it also could be personal. It could it could be negative for you, and so it's rec good to recognize whether you fall in one camp or the other whether or not you wanna try it within your training. So That'd be my recommendation.

Cory Nagler [00:14:35]: Yeah. How about yourself, Michael?

Michael Hammond [00:14:37]: I'm gonna say caffeine is overrated, and I am I say this with full confidence because most of the benefits that you for running that you read about with caffeine, you know, increased fat utilization, which can spare your carbohydrate sources, delayed onset of fatigue. Almost all of that is if you never have it. Regardless of your sensitivity, regardless of your your genetics about it, if you have caffeine every day, which, let's be honest, almost everyone who's using it has it every single day. Like, the amount of people who have it only on race day or only, like, once a week, whatever, are slim to none to the point where I don't even think it's necessarily worth sometimes talking about those benefits because you're just not gonna get those benefits. Your body has become so accustomed to it. That's not to say it's not gonna help you at all, but in terms of, like, getting those really massive benefits that the studies all talk about, you have to pretty much never have it. You cannot have that tolerance to it because your your body's not gonna have that same response. So truly, because everyone pretty much has it every day, I'm gonna say in terms of those benefits, overrated.

Cory Nagler [00:15:38]: Yeah. I will call out for our listeners who love their morning cup of coffee. We're looking at this only from a running objectives. So if you do love that morning cup of Joe, definitely still have it.

Michael Hammond [00:15:47]: Totally. Yeah. Hey. If it that's the thing. I'm thinking of it from those benefits perspective, but what about the benefit of it helps you get out the door on your run. What about the benefit of it helps with bowel movements? You know, these are all, like, benefits that maybe aren't necessarily quite as studied or or the things that I was talking about, can have a huge advantage for people. So I was saying overrated purely as, like, a supplement form in terms of thinking about it from that perspective, but from a day to day use and, like, quality of life, yeah, it can it can obviously be worth it. Right. Yeah. And I'd say too, like, I I I used to take it I used to get up in the morning, and I wouldn't drink coffee until after I ran when I was working full time and running at, like, 4, 4:30 in the morning. I shouldn't wanna make coffee. so I drink coffee when I got to the office. And so I did notice a difference in perceived exertion still. So even if you are taking it regularly,

Andie Cozzarelli [00:16:31]: the difference between We're go doing a run without the caffeine and then take doing a run with caffeine. You're still gonna notice a little bit of those perceived exertion feelings when you go out to run regardless of if you're kind of used to it or not, you may notice that you're faster just naturally on days you drink coffee and just a little bit slower on days that you don't. So that's that's still gonna probably be there. So I would say too if you train with it if you're training with coffee before, You run still keep doing that on race day because it's better that we keep things similar in in what we're familiar with in training than trying to introduce or or change things just for race day. So good to recognize.

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Cory Nagler [00:18:44]: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense and don't wanna alienate our listeners who are who are, you know, serious coffee drinkers. I know for myself, you kinda describe my routine there and then I'm off going from my run quickly in the morning and then getting in the caffeine after and if it gets you gets you through the day of Michael as you touched on definitely other benefits there. Our next topic which is gonna be the last in the category of performance enhancers is gels and hydration mixes. And I know this is a broad topic, but I'm essentially thinking of any kind of compact form of carbohydrates that you're gonna take in during your runs or workouts. maybe Michael will start off with you this time. Is this overrated or underrated?

Michael Hammond [00:19:22]: Yeah. I think gels are somewhat over and I'll and I'll explain my reasoning for that. I think for racing, I think it's it's a it's a an imperfect solution to a difficult problem. know, I think that that's where they're ultimately, they are necessary. I see their need, especially for a marathon. But definitely not as much for training. I I see too many people, you know, within Runners Connect. I've seen too many people who will, like, overuse them on shorter runs, on shorter workouts where it's just not necessary. I I don't see the need. I don't see the benefit for it for you know what? Even any in my opinion, certainly anything under 90 minutes, but maybe even stretch that up to to about 2 hours, kinda depending on the person, depending on your fitness level. But another thing is a lot of these you know, what did I say earlier? I'm like seed oil crusader. There's a lot of bad ingredients in these. Goose have have seed oils. We'll have typically, like, sunflower oil. Why on earth do you need sunflower oil mid race. I I see no reason for that. I see no benefit for that other than mass production of the product. So and on let's be honest. I think we can all agree that most of these things taste abysmal. They're just so awful. They're so gross. But the interesting thing with so many supplements in neck nutrition and and really soap training methods and everything. Running tends to be several years behind cycling. Cycling is is, like, at the frontier It's a bigger money spore. They tend to be way ahead. Something interesting that cyclists do, and and I understand cyclists have, you know, bottle cages, and it's easier for them to to carry bottle. But if you will if you're okay carrying water, an interesting an interesting thing you can do to basically mimic or even improve upon a gel is just to put some sugar in water. Like, believe it or not. Sugar, table sugar, which is sucrose, it it has, like, a 5050 glucose, fructose mixture, like like balance, which is actually optimal for your body to digest. It's easier for your stomach to digest something that has that that 5050 mix. The problem is too many of these gels. They go too hard one way. They'll go all in on glucose, but they'll go really hard on fructose. They'll mess up that balance, and thus people will have a lot of, like, stomach and sensitivities. So, ultimately, I understand the need of of Gels, I understand their practical application. I think it's a like I said, it's an imperfect solution to just a difficult problem, but on the whole, I'm gonna say overrated.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:21:36]: Yeah. I think I think I might think Michael's right on a lot of people are overusing them and using them for a lot of their easy runs, which is not a 100% necessary. I do think that some people use them also before easy runs if they don't have time to get food in, which not necessarily a bad thing because, you know, it is simple sugar. It is quick sugar. But because you're about to go run and you're, like, seconds from going out the door, that sugar is not gonna be sitting in your system as if you just ate a piece of candy. It's getting utilized pretty much immediately. when you go to start your run. So in that instance, it can be okay, but the problem is that sometimes that sugar being so quick to metabolize we can have some blood sugar kind of dips, and it does a little bit of that, which we don't wanna have happening happening on all of our runs. because then we end up having to chase it with more sugar in our runs even if they're shorter runs. And so that's where something we wanna be a little bit mindful of if you're using it for that to just get something in your system before you go run, that's gonna be beneficial. But if you're having and noticing any blood sugar dips, then it's better for us to actually use Whole Foods and use something like Toast something also easily digestible, but a little bit more substantial that it's not spiking blood sugar and stuff like that. I mean, there's and there's but there are also different options out there. You can mix a gel that's made from more of a complex carbohydrate, so it's not gonna be quite something metabolized to the same. So that's gonna be something that's, like, slightly different way that we would be using it. So it's not gonna have some of the same effects that some of these, like, sugar based products are. So it's just good to recognize kind of what you're looking at, what you're using, recognize the ingredients. And like Michael said, you know, staying away from anything that's gonna have too much that's gonna cause gut disturbances because that's super common that people don't feel good with certain products. So you have to kinda test them out test different things out, see what's gonna be the most this is gonna be the easiest for your body to digest when you do use them. And then on the topic of hydration mixes, I I I think those are underrated because I think that hydration can have such a huge impact on performance, the electrolytes that we need to get in, And a lot of times when you're racing and you're relying on something like Gatorade, it has too much carbohydrate, and it drowns out the actual ability for us to get enough electrolytes in So that's where, especially if you're a salty sweater having an dehydration mix on you can actually be really valuable to ensure that you're getting the electrolytes you need to stay hydrated because it's not just water. There's a much higher incidence of athletes becoming hyponatremic, which is too much water without enough sodium in races and having to deal with that. It's much higher than people getting dehydrated. So That's where I'd say the hydration mixes are super important for electrolyte balance needs.

Cory Nagler [00:24:17]: Yeah. And I'm glad be touched on the fact that there's so many different options out. It used to be that goo was really the only option you would go with, but I know personally I'll use energy gels for my races, but I'm using ones without calling out any specific names that are honey or maple syrup or different products that I find sit better with me. And then there's even, you know, pro marathoners that'll experiment with different stuff. I know Kipchoge is a big advocate of of Morton, but there's also Kim Levans up here in the US is using lemonade for his races. So at the end of if you're if you're getting in carbs and they sit well, that's gonna help your performance.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:24:48]: Yeah. And they want they used to use, what, like, flat coke back in the day. That was one of the thing. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:24:53]: Corey, I gotta I gotta correct you. You said Kam Levans up here in the US. You gotta claim you're Canadians, man. You -- Sorry. Yeah. That's my bad. I I I am a proud Canadian, so I don't wanna claim Kim Levans if you're listening to this. I'm sorry. I I do know you're Canadian.

Michael Hammond [00:25:08]: When when you have one that good, you gotta You can't mess up like that. You gotta claim him as your own. I know. I know. We're fortunate that we have several decent marathoners

Cory Nagler [00:25:16]: right now, but Ken Lovens is definitely at the top. So Apologies for that one. Oh, okay. Well, we'll go on to the next topic. Shifting gears a little bit. This one is actually what I'll call special diets. So we're gonna say this is kind of specific eating habits that might be beneficial for performance. The first one we're going to go into is fasted runs. This can be for different periods of times. But usually, I think 8 hours minimum is is kind of the window used for that, which means you're not consuming any calories before that run. Andy, do you wanna start us off? Is this habit underrated or overrated?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:25:50]: I'd say overrated and especially for women just because we have a different mechanism for how fasted runs impact the body. I've heard this explained from a little bit of an evolutionary standpoint of that men tend to in a fasted state pump out more adrenaline. And women tend to pump out more cortisol in a fasted state. So quarter what's cortisol is a fat storage hormone. It's a stress response hormone. And so not it's not gonna help us as much as, you know, guys you know, the fasted whole intermittent fasted craze was studied on men, and so they found a good benefit for men, but not necessarily the same benefits for women. And at the same time too, like, a lot of these diets, they work initially, you may notice. And then we start to see them kinda go the opposite direction. And so I think this is kinda can be one of those if we're not kinda handling our our intake and and managing our tabolism through it all. And so and I think the other thing is that with fasted runs, especially when we have busy lifestyles, is that if you're fasting before you run and then not feeling very well afterwards or you're not getting it in soon enough, you're in a completely depleted state for such a long time because, you know, you run And when you wake up and run and you're fasted, you're going from a fast overnight, like, basically where you're just not eating, and then you go run. then you still haven't eaten anything. So from an energy depletion standpoint, if you look at kind of the baseline there, when you start off, you're already kind of below that line. then you go run and you drop yourself even farther. So you're constantly trying to play catch up on getting back into a balanced energy standpoint. So I think Sometimes that some some people do fine with it as long as they're doing a really good job of of maintaining their nutrition throughout the day. But if you're not doing great job of that throughout the rest of the day. It's just gonna constantly put us in this under fueled state, which from a woman's side that that has a lot of impact on hormones And we know that hormones has a huge impact on how we feel, how we how weight gain, all those things can be so tied into that, that it's gonna be so much better to have to keep try to keep things balanced as much as possible by by taking something even even something small in before you run just because We it it's just gonna pay off long term, and, ultimately, we're trying to improve over a long term as opposed to having these short term gains in either weight loss or performance. So that's kind of my standpoint on it. I have had my own issues with under fueling, and so I always would rather caution people on not more over fueling than under just because, you know, underfeeling has so many detrimental side effects to it that don't don't want anyone to go down that road. So Yep.

Cory Nagler [00:28:28]: Yeah. Michael, what's your feeling? Do you classify it as overrated or underrated?

Michael Hammond [00:28:32]: Yeah. First of all, I'm grateful to have Andy's perspective and experience because I think that's so valuable. I I I I think I understood before this, like, the on the role of it in cortisol production, but I I did not fully understand the differences between men and women that's fascinating, and I'm I'm glad that people are gonna hear that perspective as well. Because my perspective on faster runs is that they're I think they're a little bit underrated. I think that it's a great way to improve fat oxidation, which is obviously helpful for the marathon, but it really comes down to As with so many things on this list, you gotta be careful with it. It's something that you wanna build into. It's something that, ideally, you wanna be doing for shorter runs unless you're doing, like, very specific glycogen depleted long runs. That's something we utilize at Runners Connect with within training plants for Marathon to to improve fats, fat oxidation, and and spare your carbohydrate sources. But it's really something you gotta be careful with. And I think I I love that Andy gave the perspective. 1 of of women's kind of independent of men with this, but also the perspective of, like, your overall nutrition being so important. And if your if your overall nutrition is taken care of and on point, you're probably gonna handle these really well. You're probably if if you're having, you know, proper, like, macronutrient profiles and stuff. But if you're not, if you're, like, rushing from your run onto work or something, and then you're trying to do that it and maybe not being able to get a meal in for a while. Yeah. Your cortisol is gonna be through the roof. You're gonna have excessive levels of fatigue. You're gonna mess with your hormones. So I say underrated, and yet I value Andy's perspective there, and I think that's incredibly important to keep in mind.

Cory Nagler [00:30:03]: Yeah. I I think that's a that's a great note. And I I know for me that also that piece on kinda whether it's a shorter run or not. A lot of times, I'm I'm going early in the morning. Maybe for a shorter run might be without having anything, but for those longer, long runs or intense speed sessions, I think the importance maybe does shift a little bit. Yeah. Seeing some head nods on that as well. So I'll move into the next one. This might actually be at the other end of the spectrum, which is carb loading. for those of you who are fans of the office, this doesn't necessarily mean you have to shovel loads of Fettuccine Alfredo inside of you the night before, but we're basically looking at making sure that you're increasing your intake of carbohydrates before the race. So Michael, do you think this practice is overrated or underrated?

Michael Hammond [00:30:43]: Corey, you ruined my anecdote. I'm literally looking at it. I said too easy to overdue EG Michael Scott in the office. So for anybody who hasn't seen, they're doing, like, 5 k run, and Michael Scott thinks he's gonna crush it because he carloads, uses a bunch of Fettuccine alfredo naturally has a gut bomb and and feels like crap. But I think carb loading in general is overrated. I think it almost certainly makes no difference at anything less than a marathon. And even then, I This is one of those things that with with as with so many things with supplementation or nutrition, when you get down to, like, the real optimization level of it, you know, not you know, the majority of it is just getting it down, having your basic nutrition down. When you get into that last little percentages, there's so much room for error. with so much of this stuff. And I think carb loading is is one of those things. Most people, I would say, don't mess with your nutrition heading into a race. I don't think it's worth it to really play around with that because it's so easy to mess it up. You know, you look at a pro athlete who's working with a nutritionist, working with a dietitian, working with their their team is, like, monitoring all this stuff. They're making sure that it's exact. They're testing. For your average person, it's so so easy to get wrong. You know, if you're your average person, it's not this, like, laboratory controlled experiment. Your average person, it's going to, you know, Olive Garden and crushing the breadsticks. and and getting, yeah, getting the Fettuccine Alfredo, getting an extra bowl because we're trying to carload. It's so easy to do wrong that I I think in almost every case, it's overrated.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:32:12]: Yeah. I think I think the I think the term kind of lends towards overdoing it a little bit. I mean, carb carbo loading. Like, It just sounds like you're just supposed to go crazy with it. Right? So it's funny because in high school, we used to always use spaghetti dinners before our cross country meats, and You think about that from the perspective of we're only running a 5 k. It it's really not you don't you're not gonna run out of your glycogen stores in a 5 k. So It's something that runners have always done, and so I think it's fine to always kinda, like, stick with something that you know works and that you've done for a long time. But I wouldn't say that we need to go a excessive with it. And I think a lot of times when we hear carbo loading, we start to kind of, like, start putting things into our bodies that we wouldn't normally eat. We start increasing our food intake generally when we're decreasing our our actual, you know, training load. And so I think it's important to A, utilize this carbo loading as somewhat more of a intuitively eat your carbs. So in you know, change start to start to increase your carbonate if you're going to a marathon or a longer event. You can start to kinda start to do that towards the the tail end of of your training cycle in that last week. But what I try to do personally is shift more of my I try to eat simpler, so I start as we get closer to the race, it's just kinda decreasing more of that fiber. So a couple days before, the carbs that I intake are gonna be less fibrous, Still wanna make sure you get your protein. So sometimes when people carbo load, they start to think so much about carbs. They don't think about how protein they're taking in, and protein is really valuable in those final days as well. So we wanna make sure we're getting both of those and that we're not shortchanging the protein intake and the carbs. So, yeah, they're moving more towards sort of those simple carbs, not overdoing it, and kinda keeping a balanced diet going into race day is gonna have bigger payoff than, you know, thinking too much about I just need carbs in my diet because that's gonna start, you know, changing the way you to how you eat in in general, and that's not necessarily valuable going into race. And the other thing is when you do carb load, people will start to also get in their heads because it actually creates a little bit more you you retain fluid a lot more, so that's good for the race because you wanna have, you know, have those water stores on deck. But You also might gain weight, and so I think a lot of runners will get in their heads about that. So just like just to add something to The carbo loading is just to recognize not to say that you shouldn't because you're gonna gain weight, but just to recognize that's part of the process because When you do car below, that's gonna happen a little bit, and we just have to be prepared and mentally know that that's gonna happen and just kinda deal with it. So That's kinda what I would say with carbo loading.

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Cory Nagler [00:36:07]: Definitely. And on that piece on intuiting, I know for me, One thing that's really important is just making sure you're getting enough carbs in throughout the load so that, ultimately, when you're tapering for your race and if you're kinda naturally getting in more carbs just because you're not burning them off, Is that something that plays in as well, or do you really need to have a market uptake in the amount of cards you're taking in?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:36:26]: I I what I think what I was one of the things that I've one of our podcasts that we've done, I think, Claire, the she had talked about how you shift your carbohydrate intake in terms of you lowering your fat intake and you just replace some of the fat intake with carbs. So I think it's a but I don't think it needs to be an exact science For me, it's just kind of like, I just am thinking a little bit more about what I take in, so I'll eat simpler, which means I may just be eating more like bread and and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches or something like that or pasta with, you know, tomato sauce, whatever feels good in chicken. So just kind of thinking a little bit simpler in terms of diet, and and that's also a good time to kind of think about I like to eat pretzels in the lead up for a race. So things like that are kind of what I what I would do is in placing snacks with something that maybe I would have normally in with maybe a vegetable or something like that with just like a pretzel or something simple like that. So that's kind of how I go through the process of it without trying to just be constantly thinking about it and trying to just take in more and more because I don't think that's the idea. It's really just to kind of, like, replace a little bit gradually over time and just get to the race day feeling ready to go, feeling good and energized.

Cory Nagler [00:37:40]: So -- I think that replacing piece is an important one just because getting more carbohydrates doesn't necessarily mean you have to take in more. You can kinda just sure you're you're eating those pretzels, those bagels, rice, whatever is gonna get those carbs into you. So that's a great note. And then the final piece we're gonna touch on here for diets again, doing a complete 180 here, but Keto, which for those who are not familiar, I'm not gonna go into the details because I know everyone uses it differently, but generally that means you're kind of reducing the knee. amount of carbs that you take in. So, Andy, what are your thoughts on that? Is this overrated or underrated?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:38:11]: I'm gonna say overrated again, and this is also me coming from a female's perspective. lived. So the data on that, again, is something that's very similar where it's studied on men mostly. And so women have a different response in just the sense that We carbohydrates actually fuel a lot of our female hormones. And so that's why your body actually when women are in the high hormone phase of their cycle. They're craving carbs and things like that because their body needs more carbs for the hormones and the hormone response and all the things that are happening. And so Women work better with a carb in a carb state carb fueled state, I guess, I would say. Not to say that that's the case with everyone. People are gonna be different and have different responses to different things. I think there also is something to be said. I think that is it keto the the diet that a lot of with diabetics and stuff like that that they've kind of shifted to a little bit more just to kinda handle, you know, how much card they're taking in. and all that stuff. And so I think there's something to be said there. I don't know a lot of the research of the studies on that. But from personal experience, I want I was working with a nutritionist this once that was worked at the gym that I was going to. And so she was recommending as an endurance athlete to try a keto diet and I felt awful when I was on it. I felt just completely drained and tired, and I only tried it for, like, a very short period of time. And as soon as I put carves back in, I felt instantly better. So for me, from my own personal experience, also, it it wasn't great. I didn't feel good with it. There's a whole process of You don't you have to get to a point where your fat burning becomes the primary source, and that process can be really difficult to get to. And so there can be a curve of getting there where you just feel awful. And I, you know, I don't know if it's 100% worth it for most people, but, you know, for some people, it may be, and so it could be personal choice. But For me and for a lot of women, I would say it's a it's an overrated option.

Cory Nagler [00:40:06]: Michael, are you on the same page, or do you have different thoughts?

Michael Hammond [00:40:09]: Yeah. With Keto, I'm gonna go neutral. And the reason I say that is because I don't necessarily wanna sit come out and just say overrated because a lot of people have found success with their health, you know, particularly with, like, diabetes and and weight control through a ketogenic diet or at least even a low carb diet. I know those are technically different things. Like ketogenic is really going, like, pretty much zero carb to where you're completely fat adapted. Like Andy said, you go through that that period. So I know those are different, Kito and low carb, but I'm kinda lumping them in in terms of people have found a lot of success. With those, from a health standpoint, So that's awesome. You know, that's something I always wanna take into account. It's this isn't all about just, like, helping you run better. This is also about making you healthier. But if you are looking for peak performance, you know, at the marathon or or lower, then it's almost certainly not gonna be the way to go. You know, even those low carb endurance athletes, which has become a a fairly popular thing, even they will typically go with carbs for, like, the big races, especially in a shorter race. Not all of them. Some of them will will will totally go fat, adapt it, and and totally do it on that. but a lot of even your lower carbon during athletes will typically go up the carbs and and the sugars and stuff for the race because it's just an easy quick fuel. So for super long, like, ultra running and then also for general health, I think it's possibly underrated. I think it possibly has a lot of good application. But for if you're trying to run your best, you know, 5 k to marathon, I think it's probably overrated.

Cory Nagler [00:41:42]: Yeah. You did touch there a little bit on the distance and the the longer place. So do you think that maybe for those ultra marathoners or maybe I know we usually running. But if you're triathlete and doing Ironman, is there maybe a difference there in terms of what the benefits may or may not be? There sure can be. I think it really comes down to the energy systems your body is utilizing. If you're

Michael Hammond [00:42:01]: sprinting a hundred meters, if we're gonna go to the extreme examples, if you're sprinting a hundred meters, that is, you know, an an anaerobic thing. You're almost exclusively using carbohydrate. You know? That's what's gonna give you the most power within that short intense exercise. Going way let's go on the let's complete opposite end and say, you go and walk slow for an hour. You know, you can easily burn fat for that and and get the same output as you would burning carbohydrates. In fact, it might even be preferred because you're not having to stop and fuel. So that's the okay. So those who are extremes, those are each side, the the 100 meter sprint versus the long, you know, slow walk. Now we can look at everything in between. We can look at 5 k, almost certainly gonna be carbohydrate powered. We can look at the ultraultra distances, which could be exclusively fat powered, and, again, can almost be beneficial because you're not having to fuel all the time. You know, if you're doing a hundred mile endurance event, that can be challenging to sit there and and have how many gels are you gonna go through? You you're gonna be not only gonna be so sick of those, your body might legitimately start to, like, reject those. So a lot of people have found success at the ultra events through more ketogenic style eating, more more fat burning. But I think that what it really comes down to, that's that's where I kinda distinguish between, like, health and and diabetes control and weight control and all that, and also that peak performance. That's where we get into some interesting kind of middle ground of, like, the the marathon is a very difficult one with that. I've seen people who we we had we we had somebody a runners connect athlete who just talked about last week on one of our Zoom calls, how He's doing great on a super low carb or even no carb diet. But you look at peak performance in terms of people who are trying to run their fastest marathon. I have I have personally never seen someone do that. And on a faster end, going low carb. I just haven't seen it. I haven't seen it done, but I've seen people run solid marathons on really low or even no carbs. So that like I said, it's really that distinction. I think ultra long endurance events absolutely can can can look at fat adaptation and could even be beneficial or or maybe even better. It's hard to say because, as always, like, hundred mile endurance races are are competitive, but the canyons aren't coming out and doing the hundred mile races. You know, what if What if the kenyans came out fueled exclusively on Ugali and destroyed all the the, you know, the high fat, low carb Americans? I don't know. I don't know what's going on there, but but I've seen enough success on on those ends of the spectrum with the longer stuff with with higher fat, lower carb to believe that at minimum, there there is something there. There's something to that.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:44:34]: Yeah. I always I always think about, okay, what are the top and the sport? What are they doing in terms of fueling and how and I don't think we have a lot of instances of of a lot of athletes at any at at the any of the spectrum doing a ton of of being exclusive on one field source. I don't think we have I mean, there's a lot of yeah, East East Africans that do a lot of they their diets are much higher in carbohydrate than the American diet typically is. And so there's there's differences there, but not in a necessarily can we do exactly what they're doing and have it work for us, and so that's where that that balance comes in. But I also it is it is interesting to look at, like, what are our our top 5 k runners doing? What are our top 10 k mile marathon? What is their their diet look like? And we're not seeing a lot of these athletes doing fasted or or, you know, low carb or keto diets and stuff like that. So I think that's I think there probably some out there, but it's just interesting to kind of look at what that looks like from that end and kind of, you know, bringing that down to our general population of athletes. Like, how does that how does that apply to what they're doing. And and so we we know a lot more athletes may be doing things for health perspective more so than just performance. So that's for that that whole piece of that coming into play. And and I know that one one thing that I had to do when I was dealing with some autoimmune stuff was that I had to go on an anti inflammatory diet, which was really low carb. But That meant for me that I was actually doing less intensity, less running in general. I actually had to kinda cut a lot of that out in order for the for it to work because if you're doing something like this from that perspective, exercise is actually gonna be an inflammatory thing to your body, and so it It kinda has to balance itself out. So if you are going to try keto, you almost need to cut back on all of your endurance training or your intensity training. until you've kind of been able to get to that space is what I would say too because otherwise, it puts your body into a really, really tough place to get to. So that's just kind of something that I would add there is that how how exercise can play into this and how if we're trying diets, how we need to kinda navigate that.

Cory Nagler [00:46:36]: For sure, exercise is gonna play into all of this and, hopefully, this balances out a little bit the messaging that you still need to eat your veggies and it'll be good for a runner is that those carbs are still gonna be beneficial and they're gonna help you out on race day.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:46:48]: Yep.

Cory Nagler [00:46:50]: Michael Andy I've enjoyed this conversation so much, and, hopefully, this will be some great lessons that all our runners can take away. I do wanna kinda summarize it and just wrap up a little so people have those points that they can focus on for dialing in their nutrition. So I'll go each of you one at a time and maybe if you just wanna provide some overall advice or if you have anything that that runners listening to this should really focus on when they're thinking about what type of nutrition to take in or or what supplements might be beneficial. Maybe, Michael, do you wanna give your thoughts first?

Michael Hammond [00:47:20]: Absolutely. I would say I could summarize it very simply into just eat a great diet. Like, really, that like, worry more about your overall diet than the specifics. Take care of the foundation of the house first. before you look at the the nitty gritty details. You know, I'd rather have a runner who has a really solid overall diet and pays literally zero attention to their, like, in run nutrition, pre and post run nutrition, I'd much rather have that than the other way around, somebody who's, like, a assessed with the the nitty gritty details, but maybe doesn't take care of their overall diet. Any day, give me the former because they're gonna they're still gonna recover well. They're gonna have healthy hormones. They're gonna feel good. And maybe then we can fine tune and get some of the specifics right, but that's really how I feel in general. I know I said overrated to so many supplements and and things that we talked about. And yet, I I still think that there's a lot of benefit to to a lot of supplements, a lot of the kind of those nitty gritty details. but you have to have the big part done for supplements, a lot of the little additional things we said. That is that last, like, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 percent at most. That lasts a little bit, and it only works if the foundation is taken care of properly. So really just focus on your overall diet. Eat healthy Whole Foods regardless of what exact type of diet you're following or macros you're following. healthy, whole, unprocessed foods. You do that 80 to 90% of the time. You're pretty much gonna be gold. The rest is gonna either take care of itself or it's just gonna be easier to implement that stuff, and it's gonna have a lot better of an effect once you implement those last little percentage points. So just eat a great diet. That's gonna take care of most of it for you.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:49:02]: Awesome. And, Andy, any final thoughts to wrap us up? Yeah. I think diet wise, exactly what Michael said. I'm big proponent of intuitive eating and really thinking about a balanced intake of food. And and like Michael said, none of these supplements will work if you're under fuel if you're under fueling, you're not gonna be able to take beet root juice and magically be able to still perform. You're not gonna be able to do all the things that you wanna do if you're not feeling enough in taking care of. So I think baseline really go back to basics. You can always, you know, get on a stable, healthy relationship with food. So a healthy relationship with your body first, then, you know, start having a healthier relationship with the food that you take in. And then once you get to a really good baseline of that, if you wanna start experimenting with, okay, what other things can I do now to just make myself healthier and and perform better? And what things do I wanna try? You can always add things in, but it comes from a place of starting in the right space and then branching out from there. If we don't have that that level, that foundational health and well-being, and all those things coming first, then absolutely nothing you do outside of that is going to plate, it's not gonna work. So no amount of supplements gonna make up for not eating enough or any of those things and or not eating healthy enough or not eating the right foods. So I, yes, Michael said said nail it on the head where we just need to really ensure that we are taking care of our body when I say also balanced and intuitive, that means that we still eat the foods that we enjoy. And we we do that in a way that's that's balanced, you know, not only eating cake, but, you know, having a piece of cake when you want it. So really big on all of those things being the first thing that we sun, and then we can always refine from there.

Cory Nagler [00:50:46]: Awesome. Well, I am personally feeling very inspired to go get in those healthy carbs, those veggie and eat well. Hopefully, you listening at home feel that same way as well. Michael, Andy, thank you both so much.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:50:58]: Yeah. Thanks for having us. It's fun.

Cory Nagler [00:51:00]: Great having you on.

Finn Melanson [00:51:16]: Thanks for listening to the run to the top podcast. I'm your host, Finn Malanson. As always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. please consider connecting with me on instagram at wasatchfin, and the rest of our team at Runners Connect. Also consider supporting our show for free with a rating on the Spotify and Apple podcast wipes. And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with our guests, and premier access to contests and giveaways, and subscribe to our newsletter by going to runners connect dot net backslash podcast. Until next time, I'd be training.