Underrated vs Overrated: Nutrition Edition | Part 1

Finn Melanson [00:00:10]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn Melanson, and this is the Run to The Top podcast, a podcast dedicated to making you a better runner with each and every episode. We are created and produced by the expert team of coaches@runnersconnect.net where you can find the best running information on the internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget.

Michael Hammond [00:00:37]: You.

Finn Melanson [00:00:37]: When it comes to running. Performance. There are way too many variables to count, and this can lead to some pretty strong opinions about what strategies work and which are a waste of your time. In today's show, we'll be tackling several controversial running topics and getting our expert coaches to weigh in on which are overrated or underrated. In this new format, our panel will be given a series of popular topics and they'll tell you why they think each one is either overhyped or why you should be focusing on it if your goal is to progress as a runner, today's discussion on overrated and underrated running topics will focus on fueling and nutrition. We'll be going over many nutrient types, training supplements and fueling strategies so you know what to focus on for nailing down your personal nutrition. To help us make those tough decisions, we've brought you two of our expert coaches, Andy and Michael, who will be on our panel for the day. In the episode, you'll learn do you need protein supplements as a runner? And what are the best ways to meet your protein needs, which vitamins matter to most runners, whether there are nutritional products with performance enhancing effects, whether you should be following any specific types of diets? And we'll hear from our coaches on what you should be focusing on to get the most out of your training nutrition. We all need to eat. So if you've ever wondered how your fueling can improve running performance, this is the episode for you. Let's get into it. Don't let runners knee keep you from completing your long runs or worse, sideline you altogether. An innovative new product called New Knee has been clinically proven to deliver immediate relief from runners. Knee head to RunnersConnect. Net new knee that's spelled Nunee to learn more and receive your 50% discount at checkout. Before we get into the conversation, if you're looking for the best way to increase focus and performance during your long runs and workouts this summer, you'll love Perform from The Amino Company. I'll tell you more about them later in this episode, or you can check out the research at forward slash RTT.

Cory Nagler [00:02:52]: Thank you, Finn, for the great intro. And once again, welcome to the Run to the Top podcast. With us today to help determine what fueling strategies are overrated and which are underrated, strategies you should consider implementing are two of our professional coaches on the RC team, andy and Michael. Andy is no stranger to fueling, being a semi professional marathon runner and former owner of her own baking business, michael is our head coach here at Runners Connect. His experience with fueling for any distance, having run a sub four minute mile and now focusing his coaching efforts on helping runners excel at longer distances up to and beyond the marathon. Welcome to the show and so excited to have you both with us.

Michael Hammond [00:03:34]: Thanks, Corey. We're excited.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:03:35]: Yeah, fun.

Cory Nagler [00:03:37]: Awesome. Perfect. So just before we fully jump into this topic, a little heads up on how we're going to run this. So we're going to go over several categories of fueling and then I'll give you topics and hear your thoughts on whether each one is overrated or underrated. So to start us off, we'll dive into our first topic which is protein. And I know there's a lot of different ways to get your protein. So the first topic we're going to go to here is protein powder. This can oftentimes be whey but there's a lot of varieties out there so maybe michael, do you want to start us out with your thoughts?

Michael Hammond [00:04:07]: Yeah, I'd love to, Corey. So I want to say before I launch in, I want to say that get ready for some epic debate here everybody, me and Andy agree on a lot and yet sometimes we disagree on stuff so we'll go at it, we won't hold back our punches if we get into debate. But yeah, protein powder is obviously a big one. I think it's definitely bigger in other sports bodybuilding is obviously kind of where it got its big start and people trying to get bigger but running I do find it to be very popular. I would say that I find protein powder to be a little bit underrated but with some caveats. I think that meeting protein needs are incredibly important. Even whether you believe that you need a ton of protein, like maybe people more eating like higher meat diets do, or if you don't really think you need all that much protein if you're more of a vegan who thinks that maybe it's a little bit lower. Regardless, you definitely need to get your protein and I think the more you work out, obviously we don't need to talk about the research behind breaking down of muscle and building it back up with amino acids and such. So I do think it's underrated but I think specifically talking about because what's the most popular protein supplement? It's Whey. Whey protein is by far the most popular. Whey protein is obviously a dairy product. The issue that we get into there is your ability to digest lactose, whether you have lactase or not. A lot of people don't know this, but some humans have this and a lot of humans don't, they have something called lactase persistence. Lactase persistence is persistence of lactase which is your enzyme that you use to digest lactose which is in dairy. Lactase persistence means that you have it beyond infancy. So if you're an infant, every infant, every human infant has lactase so that they can digest their mother's breast milk. Only certain people from the world, and you can look at a map, it's super fascinating to see who has lactase persistence. Basically, if your ancestry is from in and around like Western Europe, typically you're going to have lactase persistence into adulthood. If it's not, you might still, but you might not. So that's why I think that whey protein being thrown out as like this universal, incredible source of protein is a little bit I don't necessarily like to just throw it out there as the ultimate protein source because, again, people who can't digest it, they're going to be the ones who they have a big whey protein shake with, like, 28 grams of protein, and they feel like they have, like, a brick in their stomach and they have gas and bloating and they just feel like crap. That means you can't digest it, whereas some people will have it and feel great. So I think Whey protein, I think protein powder on the whole is underrated, but I would be very careful with your source. If you feel like you can digest dairy really well, whey protein is probably going to work really well for you. And it's actually a great source because great amino acid profile, well digested. If you can digest the lactose and it's a great source, but if not, then you need to try to find something else that you digest well and you're going to be able to have consistently. So I think it's super underrated, but you got to have the right source.

Cory Nagler [00:07:06]: Yeah, that digestion is key, especially for runners. Andy, do you want to give us your thoughts?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:07:10]: Yeah, I'd say I'm kind of torn between overrated and underrated because I think there's aspects of it that are overrated and aspects that are underrated. It's really, I think, dependent upon source. And Michael touched on that a little bit. There's also a lot of brands out there that have different fillers and different this and that. And so when you get into the weeds on some of those things, it may not be beneficial. If you're looking at a product that's got all this random different crap in it, like, how much could that be impacting your system? What types of artificial sweeteners could they be using? Because some are trying to reduce the amount of sugar and stuff like that. And so we're running into a lot of different things. I think it's the brand and the type that you're using is going to have a huge impact. Whey protein is super like I mentioned. Michael mentioned, has a really good amino acid profile in terms of your ability to recover because it has the highest amounts of the branch chain amino acids that we need for recovery, whereas some of the vegan sources don't have as high of totals of those specific branch chain amino acids. And so we aren't going to get quite as good of a recovery profile from the vegan sources. But I don't think that that's such a huge problem that you need to just not do it at all if vegan is what and that's actually something I am lactose intolerant. And I have a case analogy. So if you're lactose intolerant, there are whey products that have lactose that are lactose free, but if you have a case in allergy, it's very hard to avoid the dairy and you can't do whey protein. So if you can't, then you're not going to be in trouble. If you can't use whey protein, the vegan sources are still going to be valuable. Again, it's just figuring out ones that are going to work for you and ensuring that you feel good with them. And so I think that's the biggest thing is that if you're having any inflammatory response to something you're taking in, it's going to negate some of those recovery benefits. So you might as well figure out what you feel good with. And so I think that's where that in between is. It's underrated from the perspective of a lot of people kind of don't invest a ton of time into looking into protein powders for recovery since it's a really quick option and there's a lot of stuff out there or there's people out there who won't eat anything because they don't have the time. But if you can put something into your system, a protein powder is great for that. And then I think the overrated sense is also that there are products out there that also have too much protein in them. And your body can only absorb I think it's somewhere between like 20 and 30 grams, depending on the person. And so at one sitting and so if you're taking in a product that's got like 40 or 50 grams of protein, you're not getting a whole lot from that necessarily. So from that perspective, it's really about choice. And I think that's where the under and overrated comes from.

Cory Nagler [00:09:55]: To me, I think that personal preference is going to be a theme here today.

Michael Hammond [00:10:00]: Yeah, Andy, if I can just add on to that when I said it came from Bodybuilding, I think that is exactly the type of issue that came from Bodybuilding, where it was like such a big marketing ploy for the Jacked explode Megatub protein to have like 55 grams of protein. That's just not even if there's a big debate around the whole, like, how much can you digest? Regardless of that, it just becomes an absurd amount of protein, absurd amount of calories even, to take at once, that you just don't really need. Certainly as a distance runner, you just certainly don't need it. So I think that's where I totally on board with you in terms of understanding your needs with it and also just finding the right product for you.

Cory Nagler [00:10:40]: So important, right?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:10:42]: Agreed.

Cory Nagler [00:10:43]: Yeah. Big craze right now, getting a lot of protein. And continuing with that theme, maybe since this is kind of an extension of the last one, we'll keep it to a quick answer on whether you think it's overrated or underrated. But protein snacks, so oftentimes this comes in bar forms, but there's a lot of varieties, whether it's protein balls, cereal or whatever else. Andy, do you want to start this time?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:11:02]: Yeah, I think similar the response here is similar. Under, an overed for on. I like bars because they're easier for me to grab and go. I think the biggest thing that I find is when I'm looking at them at the store, there's now this insurgence of low carb options and high protein and runners really need both. So we don't want to have these just protein ones that are low carb and only have 5 grams of available carb or whatever it is. I forget how they label it, but for the most part, we don't want to just have the protein, so we need to have that mixture. And so that's something that now when I go to the store, I'm constantly trying to check the label. Like, does it have enough carbs? Does it have a good amount of protein? And so it's one of those things where you really have to be selective about what you buy. Again, just like the other ones. For me, I feel like it's easier for me because I don't always want to blend something up and pack it and then try to keep it cool in the car. And so a bar is super simple for me after training and stuff like it's. It's just so dependent upon what you're getting out of it and what you need out of it and making sure you're making the right.

Cory Nagler [00:12:11]: Yeah. Michael yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:12:13]: I'm going to say overrated and for most of the very similar reasons to what Andy described with the Whey protein, it's the ingredients. I think I'm a big seed oil crusader. I think that vegetable oils are just a huge reason for so much disease and so many health issues, certainly in the Western world. And protein bars, snacks, stuff like that are one of the biggest culprits with that stuff. So you're going to find sunflower oil, canola oil, palm kernel oil, all this types of stuff that is just totally indigestible to your body and just completely unnecessary. It's usually used as either a preservative or some type of caking agent or something along those lines that you just absolutely don't need. And then, honestly, most of them use pretty poor protein sources anyway. So it's not like you're getting this bar with this excellent sourced protein that's super bioavailable along with other quality ingredients. You're usually getting pretty bottom of the barrel stuff. And then honestly, I know we just talked about carbs and the carb needs of runners. For a typical person, I would say that you're typically going to find them to be too high in sugar. They have to make them taste good. If they didn't have the sugar, most of those bars would taste like garbage. So they have to add a lot of sugar, which not necessarily a huge issue if you're like having it and then going for a 90 minutes run. But just in terms of like a day to day, because that's where a lot of people are using these maybe on the way to work or as a snack while they're at work or whatever, then that's where I typically find those to be pretty overrated. But I just have to add the caveat always with this stuff is like, I understand that if you're in a pinch, if you're in a rush, sometimes a cliff bar is going to be a really good option for you. I'd rather people have that than just try to starve or whatever, wait until the next meal. Sometimes the decision isn't always between perfect and nothing. It's going to be between okay and nothing at all. So overrated on the whole, but I understand the need for it.

Cory Nagler [00:14:11]: Yeah, we're not perfect. And guilty myself of needing that occasional protein powder or barges to get it in. So for those who do need that kind of quick pick me up or snack with protein, is there anything you should look for on the label specifically?

Michael Hammond [00:14:23]: Yeah, I would say definitely look for one without those seed oils. Without like vegetable oils. Those are typically going to be your worst things. A trend I'm seeing in bars is definitely using coconut oil, which I'm a big proponent of. I think that that's great. I think that the only problem with any of these oils, as they get higher is that if you're using it as something like just pre run, maybe it could be a little bit aggravating to your gut. But I like seeing something with coconut oil. I like seeing something with a higher quality protein. Not like soy lecithin or soy protein. Isolate is something that they're using a lot. I would like to see something with a better source of protein. And then honestly, if it's going to have sugar, give me cane sugar. Don't give me corn syrup, don't give me sucralose or an alternative. Just give me the sugar because I'm going to go run and burn it off anyway. So that's what I would look for is those more natural ingredients.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:15:13]: Yeah, I'm pretty much on the same wavelength there. I think there's lots of good options now. Like if you need a carb source that it comes from oats or something like that, which is easily digestible but also healthy and good. It's a fibrous, so it's good for your gut, but also it's easy to digest. So that's a good source of carbohydrate and it's not just sugar. So I would agree. Just more whole foods, more natural. But at the end of the day, like Michael said, it's better to get something than nothing. So we're not saying just avoid it altogether because it's not healthy. I think that's not the message we want to send. It's more that pick the option that you're going to feel the best with and also pay attention to how you actually respond to it. Does it feel good when you take in this bar, then great, keep doing it, making sure that you feel good with it and that's what matters.

Cory Nagler [00:16:00]: Yeah, great. I think that's a good takeaway for the audience is if it works for you and it makes you feel good, it's probably working.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:16:07]: Agreed.

Cory Nagler [00:16:08]: Our last topic here in protein is one that maybe people don't associate with protein as much, and that's actually collagen, which is technically a protein. I know it's associated with helping your joints, but the reason we often don't think of it as protein is because it's not a complete protein, which means it doesn't have all those branch chain amino acids that Andy touched on. So maybe, andy, do you want to start off with whether you think it's overrated or underrated?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:16:30]: I'd say overrated. I think nowadays we're seeing it in protein bars or as a protein option. And I think in terms of using it for your joints and all that stuff, that's great. You can definitely get some benefits from that. But I don't think that as a protein source, as in your recovery protein source, it's not going to give you the benefits that you need. It's not going to do the service that we're getting those bars and those protein batters for, which is to help your body recover and rebuild the collagen, is not necessarily that helpful in that process. And so while it can be beneficial for your joints and all that, it's not necessarily helping you with muscle recovery. And that's what we're going for. And so that's where I'm saying that it's more overrated from that perspective. There have been studies that when you in combination with Whey protein, it actually can be beneficial. The two of them working together can be really great as a post workout source. But as we said, with Whey protein, again, it's also so dependent upon if you digest it or not. So there's plenty of ways to also still take in collagen before training, maybe is a good way people like to put it in their coffee. Stuff like that, I think can be a good way to use it. If you are having joint problems, if you're not actually having a lot of those problems, I don't think it's 100% necessary that you really take it in. And if you're feeling that, then go ahead and try it, but don't think of it as your sole protein source for recovery.

Michael Hammond [00:17:55]: Michael, I'm going to lay mouth on this one and say neutral. I just don't know enough about collagen. I don't have enough direct experience with any of this stuff. I like to try to combine, like what do I know about it from the science and the research and also what do I know about it from either direct firsthand experience myself as an athlete or working with athletes through coaching that have used this stuff. Collagen is one of the things that looks like it would be great. It's promising. The marketing promise is tremendous. And I mean, hey, how often do you see that brand? Is it vital proteins? I think seems like every pro athlete is constantly shilling for vital proteins, collagen. And that's one of those things where you're like, is it because it's actually good or are they being paid a lot of money to promote it? It's hard to say. I don't know enough about it. It looks like it could be promising, but truly just don't have enough experience to comment.

Cory Nagler [00:18:47]: There's a lot of marketing dollars behind it, and I think even outside of the sports industry, you get a lot because there's some potential benefits for your skin. I'm not sure personally whether or not those are founded, but for those who are taking it for performance purposes, is it before your workout or after workout where you'd want to take that collagen?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:19:04]: Yeah, I feel like I don't know enough about it from that perspective, but I would say this is more of a personal experience. My fiance is a rock climber, so he takes it for his fingers and his joints in that perspective. And it's a specific type of collagen that he's looking for for different benefits. So I know there's a type one, a type two, and type three, and they all have slightly different benefits for people. And so runners need I think I can't remember what if it was three or whatever it is, but knowing what type of collagen you're getting is also important. And then again, I don't know 100%. I know the study that I read mentioned that with Whey protein, it can be a good recovery option. With collagen and Whey protein can be a good recovery option. But I know that also you can use it before. I've heard people say they get energy from it. I don't know. Like Michael said, I think it's interesting that this is a type of product that wasn't really being talked about or out there on the market when we were in college competing. And so I think that's a huge thing is we didn't need it to compete well in those times. So now that it's a new up and coming thing that everybody's talking about, it's like, okay, well, maybe I need to use this to get faster for performance. And it's like, well, also, though, I know from my perspective, a lot of this stuff wasn't there, we weren't taking it, and we were still running well. So sometimes I think it's simplifying this and just figuring out what you need and going through those motions is the most important.

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Cory Nagler [00:22:04]: You the next category we're going to go into is Vitamins, and I know that's a broad topic and you could probably do an entire podcast just on vitamins. So for the sake of time, we're just going to focus on those that are really important to runners specifically. So I'm going to start off with fish oil or omegas, and maybe michael, do you want to give us first your thoughts on whether it's overrated or underrated?

Michael Hammond [00:22:25]: Sure. I'm going to say in general, I would think that fish oil is overrated, and the reason I say that is because things like fish oil are just too hard to source well. This is a constant problem with a lot of supplements, is just the fact that they're incredibly difficult to source well. And if you do source them well, they're going to be absurdly expensive most of the time. That's a huge challenge with something like fish oil. At the same time, I think that the basic need of fish oil. The reason why people take it is because there's an ideal balance between your omega three and omega six fatty acids. The typical diet is going to be much heavier in omega six S than omega three S. Omega three S is typically going to be from your fish. There's other sources, too, that people get, but that's going to be like your biggest, most potent source. Your omega six S are going to come from a lot of different plant sources. Anybody who eats a lot of, like, peanut butter or anything like that is going to get a heavy dose of omega six. That's a problem from an inflammatory standpoint is that if that balance is out of whack, if there's too much omega six and not enough omega three, then yeah, you're going to run into some problems. I think if you're somebody who does not eat any fish, like let's say you're a vegan or vegetarian, I think that could be a good option to where you might want to take some fish oil. I think if you're someone who eats fish consistently, then I just think it's just overrated because of the difficulty in sourcing. It's kind of like eating tuna. Tuna can be a great source of protein in a lot of ways, but it can be a very difficult thing to source well, because there's so many cheap farmed sources, that's an issue that we run into with fish oil. So it absolutely has a need and if you're the right person for it, then it can absolutely be helpful for you. But in general, I'm going to go with overrated.

Cory Nagler [00:24:11]: Perfect. And Andy?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:24:12]: Yeah, I think he pretty much nailed it there. I think that there's also the different options out there. I think feel like I'm kind of repeating myself on a lot of this stuff. But you want to make sure that if with fish oil that you're using the right sources of it for it to actually beneficial. I think it's easy for that to be a supplement that doesn't have the right. Like the product is not made very well and so you're not getting what you're paying for. So I think that's an important thing to look at is how reputable that the source is, how reputable a brand is for what you're buying and knowing what brands to be looking for with fish oil. Because there's so many options out there and we don't want to buy some, we don't need to. But like Michael said, it's so important for the inflammatory response and so having a good balance there is key. And if you can get it through food, then that's fantastic. The other thing that I also noticed is a lot of times these fish oil products are also fortified with vitamin D or they have vitamin D naturally. And I know that we're going to talk about that a little bit, but vitamin D is super important. So if you find a good supplement that you like that's fish oil and vitamin D, then why not? It's good for your immune system.

Cory Nagler [00:25:20]: Perfect. That leads us off to our next topic, which is vitamin D. A lot of people also call it the sunshine vitamin. Do I take it then? Your take is underrated me. Yeah.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:25:30]: No, I think vitamin well, I'd say vitamin D is underrated you're, right? Yeah. Vitamin D is pretty important for bone growth. So we always think about calcium when it comes to bone health and all that stuff. But vitamin D is actually one of the most important there. So we need adequate levels of vitamin D for our bodies to be able to build bone and all that different stuff. So we don't want to be low on that. Oftentimes we see stress fractures can sometimes be one of the side effects or one of the reasons people get them is because vitamin D could be low or something like that, aside from a host of other issues, but that can be a contributing factor. So runners, I do think, need to make sure that they have adequate vitamin D and that they're getting it checked to ensure that the supplements or whatever they're taking is working, because that's going to be really important for making sure we have long term health, too, with our bones. I'd also say vitamin D is good for your immune system and so we need that in order to stay healthy, have a healthy response, especially with COVID that was going on when that was huge. If you were taking vitamin D, that was one of the things they're recommending to help boost your immune system, to prevent yourself from either getting bad COVID or from getting it in general, just help to protect yourself. So I'm huge on vitamin D. Another piece of information with vitamin D is that the people who have darker skin, so the melanin and all that is going to prevent some of your actual absorption from the sun. And so even from that perspective, people who have darker skin are going to need to take in more vitamin D or be more mindful of it. It's also one of those that genetically, some people are better at absorbing than others. And so I supplement with and I have to take a decent amount because I don't absorb it very well. And so I think it's super important that's one of those key vitamins that we often recommend, it can also have an impact on your energy levels. And so it's one of those that we look at if you're feeling also pretty fatigued. So lots of importance, I think, in.

Cory Nagler [00:27:31]: Vitamin D for sure, michael and you've probably got the opinion of somebody with the luxury of living in a warmer climate. I believe you're based out of South Carolina, is that right?

Michael Hammond [00:27:41]: That's right, yeah. I'm so glad that Andy brought up the part about kind of your ancestry and your skin pigmentation and everything having a huge part to do with it. Because I think that's something that is really interesting. If you read about people with very pale skin, so your Caucasian, very pale skin, you synthesize vitamin D typically relatively easily. Like, Andy has done more extensive testing and has figured out maybe she doesn't synthesize it quite as well from the sun. But typically if you have really pale skin, your vitamin D needs in terms of what you get from the sun are not really that big. So I'm going to say I think vitamin D as a supplement is actually overrated. Because one of the things I think that's super misunderstood about vitamin D, we've kind of alluded to this is that vitamin D is a hormone. It's not a nutrient. It's not a mineral. It's actually a hormone that's synthesized within your body when a steroid called seven dehydrocholesterol, I believe, is broken down by the sun's UV rays. So you get in the sun, the UV rays break that down, that creates vitamin. It synthesizes vitamin D within your body. So that's a complex process. This is a very complex process that has been how many years of evolution, whatever has taken place in order to make this happen? And like I said, the nuance there is between your skin color, your ancestry, where you come from, how well you can synthesize it, how much sun you need in order to synthesize it. There's some research that indicates that if you're from Western Europe, you have paler Caucasian skin, then you can synthesize vitamin D in you can get like, 20 to 30 minutes of sun in once or twice a week and potentially synthesize enough vitamin D to last throughout the week. These are interesting things that aren't necessarily like this exact nutrient that you need to get in in X amounts every single day. It's something that your body can synthesize over time. So I just think that's such a complex process that I don't see that being duplicated properly by a pill. That's just my personal opinion. I think something like a vitamin or a mineral is something that we ingest via food. That makes way more sense to me as something that can be duplicated with a pill, with a supplement. Vitamin D, I don't see it. I think that it's unfortunate because how many people can realistically get out between noon and 02:00 P.m. Every single day and get 10, 20, 30 minutes of sunshine? That's difficult with our work schedules and stuff. So I keep copping out on this, like, saying I get the need, but I still think it's overrated. But really, I think in general, I think it's overrated. I think if you can even get just a little bit of sunshine every week, I think especially living in a climate like, yeah, I'm in South Carolina, Andy's, only a few hours up the road in North Carolina, then I think that ideally, you can get enough from the sun. But barring that, if you're somebody who just your work schedule just makes it to where there's no way you can get out in the middle of the day and get a little bit of sunshine, then, yeah, that's where I think the supplement is probably worth it.

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Cory Nagler [00:32:04]: And for those of you listening, we are recording midday right now. So I hope I'm not holding you both back from the sunshine at the moment. Maybe just some last thought on this, andy, you kind of touched on having measured how well you can synthesize it. Maybe if this is something that's not accessible to everyone, would you say, for the general populace, is it something they should take or should you maybe avoid it unless it's specifically recommended to you?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:32:28]: I think this is a hard it's a hard one to call because vitamin D, though, is one of those that oftentimes if you're taking it in excess, I think that you pee it out because it's also and it's also fat soluble. So it's a slightly different than, say, an iron, where if you're taking it excessively, you can have negative effects from taking way too much. The other thing, though is I was just looking at a study because Michael mentioned this, what I researched, it said 42% of people are vitamin D deficient in the US. So I think it's a surprisingly high number, I'd say. I think a lot of people don't know that they're vitamin D deficient and I think that's an important thing to consider if you need vitamin D. It's also not in a lot of foods. I think it's in fish and walnuts. It's not in a lot of things that people eat regularly. So for the most part, so many people aren't getting enough in their diets. And so I think that's where some of the supplementation can kind of take up some of that. And then if you're concerned about it, I am always going to recommend go ahead and get it tested first to know if it's actually something you need. I don't think it's worth spending money on it if you don't know for sure. And then too, if you go ahead and get tested and you do find out you're low, you can go ahead and start taking something, test again in a few months and see if it's actually effective or if you need to try a different supplement. I think chasing that or not knowing if the supplement is doing anything can be one of the reasons that I think people don't stick to taking their supplements. They don't see the need or they don't recognize the potential of it, and they also don't know if it's working. So I think it's important to know firsthand if you need it, and then go ahead and see what type of supplementation you specifically need. You can try diet first, and then if that's not working, add it to your supplement regimen and talk to a doctor about it, about how much you specifically need, and then you can kind of get a good sense of it from there.

Michael Hammond [00:34:21]: If I can add two quick things I just want to add on vitamin D. One is that this is most specifically for men, but super important for testosterone is vitamin D. Super, super important for your testosterone development. And the second thing is that oftentimes people who are deficient on vitamin D who maybe take VIT D and it still isn't really having that big of an effect. A classic finding is that you're deficient in vitamin K. Vitamin K tends to I wish I knew the exact mechanism behind that, but they tend to work well together. So if you're deficient in vitamin D and even taking vitamin D is not working well for you, it might help.

Cory Nagler [00:34:57]: To also take vitamin K. Yeah, great note, and I do want to explore a lot more about how to really know if you need these vitamins. But I think that's going to be a recurring topic. So I'll move on to the next one, which is something that a lot of people are familiar with, which is multivitamins. There's a lot of different types, but for the sake of argument, let's say this is somebody who wants to forget about all these other supplements and just take multivitamins, if you're thinking of it in that context, to kind of replace and get the nutrients that you need. We'll start with Michael. Do you think this is an overrated or an underrated supplement?

Michael Hammond [00:35:32]: Yeah, I'm going to say multivitamins are overrated. And it's interesting because I'm saying overrated so much that it probably sounds like I'm anti supplementation. I'm very much pro supplementation. Believe it or not, I love supplements. I think they have a great effect if they're done right. I like supplementation as true supplementation, like the true meaning of the word. That's how I like to use it. Not as a replacement, not as like, all right, I'm going to provide this baseline. I really only like to supplement what you really need. And I think multivitamins, if I had one big criticism, it's that quality control is incredibly difficult. We just talked about the difficulty of quality control with things like fish oil. Now you're talking about a multivitamin with how many ingredients, with how many different vitamins and minerals that you're trying to source. There's almost no way that you're going to be able to quality control this stuff. Something as simple as they'll use, like a cheaper B twelve. Instead of like methylcobalmin, they'll use cyanocobalmine or something like that. Something so simple like that, you have to become this crazy expert of reading labels in order to get it right. I think that that's the biggest issue. But honestly, the other big one is that I think you should be getting most of this from your food. You really should be getting the vast majority of your nutrients and minerals. If you're getting zero of a nutrient or zero of a mineral from food and then you take a supplement, it's almost certainly not going to help you. Supplements are really meant to be to supplement a proper diet. So that's why I don't like multivitamins. And then, like I said, from the quality control, a good example I'll give is Garden of Life has been a very popular supplement brand. They've really grown. They actually got acquired by Nestle some time ago. And then you go look at the ingredients and guess what? The multivitamin, which is insanely popular, one of the most popular multivitamins on the market, very expensive too, by the way, has palm oil in it. Palm oil is something that I have no idea what it's doing in a multivitamin. I have problems with it from many different angles. From a human health angle, from a deforestation angle. I don't need to go into that. But it's a problem with it. Palm oil is a hugely problematic thing. I don't know what it's doing in there. I don't understand why it's in there. I don't understand how it possibly helps you absorb all those nutrients that you need. And in general, I just don't think that multivitamins are worthwhile. I would much rather somebody do good testing, figure out what they need, where they need, have 80% to 90% of their diet, be really high quality, so that they're getting all their nutrients and minerals, they're getting their multivitamin via food every single day. And then we use supplementation as true supplementation, not replacement, not just trying to cover that baseline.

Cory Nagler [00:38:04]: So, overrated, sure. Andy?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:38:08]: Yeah, I'm 100% agreed. Overrated, for sure. I think for the most part, a lot of times, when there's also a lot of nutrients that runners need, like iron, that is easily blocked by other types of vitamins and minerals. And so if you took it in a multivitamin, whether or not you're actually getting the benefits of it could be negated by the other vitamins in it. So you could be taking something where all of these different ingredients are competing against each other. So the caveat I'd say is, like Michael mentioned, with vitamin K, there are like a multivitamin that has vitamin K, magnesium, vitamin D. Those are all three great vitamins that work really well together and help their absorption, help each other absorb what they need through food. There's also, I think you can get it with calcium, and all of those are really important for bone growth and other things. But they also work well together. So in that instance, if that was something you wanted to try, because either you've had some issues with vitamin D absorption or you need to get your bone growth, you need to improve that, then that's something that maybe you look at with iron, for instance, too. It works well with something like a B twelve in combination. So getting there are some iron supplementations that have some formulas that are supposed to help improve your absorption of them. They include vitamin C. And so from that perspective, it's looking for vitamins that work well together and then maybe taking those because if they help each other absorb, then that's what we're going for. And then you're able to get all the things you need in one supplement. I think that's the only way that I would recommend, really, multivitamining. I don't even know if you want to say it like that, because I don't think an overarching multivitamin tends to actually reach everything that we're going for. And so it's much better to target the things that you need and then target the best ways to reach absorption of those things.

Cory Nagler [00:39:52]: So what I'm hearing is you can't skip out on the vegetables and replace them with a multivitamin, is that right?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:39:56]: Correct.

Cory Nagler [00:39:59]: Well, I think that's the answer I expected, but it might be disappointing to a lot. All right, I'm going to move on to our last topic in the vitamins category, which is one that a lot of runners will be familiar with. Andy, I know you alluded to this, but it's iron. Now, this is something which is extremely important to runners because it helps with hemoglobin, which helps to carry oxygen throughout the blood. Andy, just because you mentioned this earlier, do you want to give us your first thoughts?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:40:27]: Yeah, I think iron is probably I mean, I don't even think it's underrated or overrated. I think it's necessary almost, and I think a lot of runners know that. It's just wondering. I think there's also some misinformation out there on how much do runners need. And so that kind of stuff is I think, is important to recognize where you need to be with your iron levels. And all of us are going to be slightly different upon where we feel good. But generally, general recommendations for runners is going to be slightly different too, than just your general population of people. If you're walking around and you're not exercising, you may not notice that you have low iron and that your ferretin is somewhere in the teens or something like that. You may not notice it, but when you start to run, that's where we see that actually come forward and we see that have runners being affected by it. And so I think runners definitely need to have an idea of where their iron levels are before they start supplementing. Just like what we talked about, you can have iron overload, which will give you almost similar symptoms to low iron, but it can be dangerous. So we don't want to get to that point. We want to make sure that what we're taking is working. And so that means that we test our iron. The hard part with iron is that when you go to the doctor and you say, I need to get my iron tested, a lot of times, if they order just a general CBC, it doesn't come with the Ferretin test, which is the better way of seeing whether or not your iron is being absorbed into the bloodstream and used for oxygen transfer. If you don't have enough ferretin, then any iron that's in your system isn't being transferred to be used. And so what I've had issues with, because I have iron absorption problems, is that when I'm supplementing, if I'm not absorbing, my iron level in my blood gets really high, but my ferretin stays low or doesn't go anywhere, and it just comes down to it not being converted properly. And so if that's an issue, it's a whole thing to go down and you got to figure out, why am I not absorbing? Is there something gut related that's preventing this or am I taking it with something that's not allowing me to absorb? So that kind of thing can happen. And so I think it's really important that we recognize if we need to take iron in, women are at higher need more iron just because of the fact that we bleed and lose it every month. And then runners in general, we lose iron through foot strike hemolysis. I think that's how you pronounce it. And so we're losing iron every time we go out for a run. And so all of those things are the reasons that runners tend to also be more deficient in it. And so it's something to keep an eye on. And I think it's also something that, again, because it's so hard to absorb, it can be something that's difficult to just get through food sometimes, especially if you're a vegetarian and you don't eat meat. The plant sources are not as. They're non heme, so their absorption is not as good as heme sources, which is your red meat and stuff like that. And so if you are a vegetarian, it's worth taking a look and checking if you're getting enough through diet, and if not, supplements. Probably the best way to go to make sure that you're feeling good with training and all that stuff.

Cory Nagler [00:43:20]: Michael, let's get your thoughts. And then after, I want to come back to that piece on absorption and how runners can make sure that they're getting enough.

Michael Hammond [00:43:26]: Yeah, I think iron is underrated, really, because I've seen so many different runners with so many different diets struggle with low iron. I really think I'm to the point now where I think that this is with the case with so many different things with running, is that you can't always just look at general health advice. You can't even look at necessarily studies because studies aren't really done on marathon runners. Studies are typically done on average. Normal people running for a marathon is not an average normal thing. So, like I said, I have seen people who are vegan or vegetarian be iron deficient. I've seen people who eat plenty of red meat who are iron deficient. I don't really know how to explain that, but it's the simple fact that if you're like, I'm so glad Andy brought up serum ferretin because that's so, so important to test if your serum ferretin is in the gutter. I mean, I've seen people, women especially, with a serum ferritin of like five or like seven, you're going to get super winded just walking upstairs, walking to the refrigerator. You're going to get winded. It's abysmal level of iron. So, like Andy said, the serum ferretin, you got to ask for that. Doctors are going to fight you tooth and nail because they're going to say it's not necessary. I'm not saying doctors are dumb. I'm saying doctors don't understand what the needs of runners necessarily the ferretin, it's a blood protein that contains iron. So it's going to show, like Andy alluded to how much of that iron is actually being stored. So if you're familiar, those that are listening, if they're familiar with a drug called EPO, EPO is called Erythropoietin. So Erythropoietin is what a lot of the endurance athletes get busted for, because they're injecting themselves with EPO to improve the oxygen carrying capacity of their blood. Well, what a lot of people don't know is that we all have EPO. EPO is naturally produced by the kidneys to stimulate your bone marrow to produce more red blood cells. This is natural iron and several other nutrients, too. A lot of the B vitamins and C, they lead to natural EPO production. So EPO, again, it stimulates your bone marrow, produce more red blood cells. More red blood cells means there's more oxygen in your blood. That means you're going to run faster. That's obviously good. So that's where I like for people to optimize their iron. At the same time, I do have to add, and this is something I've kind of figured out over the last few years. Five years ago, I was very much like, if you're a runner, you should be supplementing iron daily. That was my philosophy. I wouldn't say a 180 on that, but I've definitely added a bit of an asterisk to that, is that iron toxicity can be a huge problem. My dad, for instance, my dad goes and gives blood. I can't remember how often, but he donates blood because he has, like, iron overload and doesn't want that to be in his body because it can damage your GI tract, your organs. I mean, it can be fatal having iron overload. So this is where testing is the absolute ideal, the absolute perfect thing. You can do, and I say this with the caveat that almost no one's going to do it because it's hard, but let's say you're training super well, you're feeling amazing, you're just like killing your PRS. Everything's just going great. That's the time to test. That is the time to go get your blood test, see where your numbers are at. And now you have your baseline. If your ferretin is at 75, for instance, let's just say that I wish I could remember the units exactly, that I would get confused if I said it. But let's say it's at 75, and then twelve months later, you're feeling kind of run down kind of crappy. You go get another blood test, and your ferretin is now 35. There you go. Ding, ding, ding. Now, maybe you need to supplement a little bit of iron, get that ferretin up, back to that baseline number. The problem, and this is the problem with so many things with health, is that when you're feeling good and feeling great, you don't want to go to get your blood tested like you don't care enough. Why would that ever occur to you to go get your blood tested? So while that's the absolute ideal, regardless of whether you follow that or not, it's definitely the best thing you can do is go get tested, check your serum ferretin and look to see where you're at over time, test it. When you test that baseline, even if you're not feeling great, test it. And then maybe when you start supplementing, if it's low, you need to test it consistently to see that, yes, it's rising, but it's not going into absolute overload to where you can hit that iron toxicity. So, yeah, overall, I would say iron is underrated because it's just so, so important for distance runners.

Cory Nagler [00:47:49]: Michael, I'm so glad you touched on that testing piece. As somebody who takes iron myself, that's something it took a long time to realize, is you kind of need those baselines to know what to compare it to. And most of us, until you need it, have no sense what it means to have a ferretin of 20 versus 200 even. But I think for a lot of people, even once you take it, sometimes what you're taking doesn't correlate with those figures. Andy, I did mention I wanted to come back to the ad absorption piece. I've had it mentioned that vitamin C or certain other vitamins can help with absorption. Is that really the key or what can you do to make sure that you're actually benefiting from that iron supplementation?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:48:26]: Yeah, I think if you're noticing, you're not absorbing well, taking it with vitamin C and a formula I actually use what's the brand? I'm forgetting the brand I use, but it has a couple of other things in it, and I feel like that's the best I've absorbed anything was this specific brand, and it had different things to absorb. There's also different formulas of iron. So you've got ferrousulfate. I'm blanking on some of the other options out there, but I think there's a bisglycinate. There's all different types that you can try that'll change the absorption factor and all that stuff. There's liquid iron, which is going to be a little bit more potent. There's pill forms that are slow release and quick release, so all different types, it can be hard on the stomach, so some people get sick with their iron, so it can be timing specific as well. Personally, I take mine at night. I know that generally not necessarily the best time to take it, but for me it works because I take it away from any other food. So diet with calcium and zinc, all these things that can block absorption of iron, I just try to take it away from food and then if it is going to bother my gut, like I'm going to sleep. So I'll be asleep while maybe my stomach is a little bit so that's when I take it, that's just so I can ensure that I'm not going to have any upset stomach from it during the day. And then also so that I'm taking it away from food as much as possible, so that I can ensure that I'm not taking it with anything that's going to block the absorption of it. So those are my recommendations on how to take it. Everyone's going to kind of have to play with the timing of it because things like caffeine block absorption, taking it too close to exercise, can sometimes interfere with absorption. So there's all these little things that it's just like if you're noticing your body's not taking it in, play with the timing, play with what you take it with. Play with drinking anything with orange juice, try a different formula. All these things are going to be kind of a trial and error process for you, but generally just good to kind of figure out what you need to do and then continue to test before you're making too many shifts. So don't change multiple things at once. Do one thing at a time, test it out, see if it works. If so, great you can keep on that track and not have to worry about it. And then wait another three months or so and test again to ensure it's still moving in the right direction. But it's kind of just like a trial and error and keeping up on it type of thing, I'd say.

Michael Hammond [00:50:50]: And if I can add, those are all good points. Typically with iron, the nutrients that are going to help the absorption are bit. C, of course, that's the most obvious one. That's why most people just take it with like a little glass of orange juice or something like that. B six. B twelve. And Folate, that's typically going to be like the cocktail of proper iron absorption and at least 2 hours away from calcium. So. Don't take it with a glass of milk is the idea. But then from there, I just want to say from a practical standpoint, I have had athletes that I've worked with where I've had them take it three times a week, the absolute smallest dose possible. If we're using liquid iron, let's say, then we're using like a teaspoon. Some people will go, they'll say, oh, a teaspoon. Okay, I'm going to go get my spoon from the kitchen and I'm going to dump it in there and I'm going to gobble it up. And then next thing you know, you're having diarrhea, you're having stomach problems, to all that this stuff is is a powerful so you want to use the absolute tiniest dose possible and just the least amount of it possible in order to get it to work. Don't just and the problem is, everybody's going to be like, OOH, Michael said it's going to do natural EPO, I'm going to get way faster, I'm going to just go crazy on iron. Do not do that. You're going to have stomach problems. And like I said, it can absolutely be fatal. So this is where, as I said before, I used to be a very much like daily iron, no matter what if you're training. But now I'm more like even if someone is deficient, I'm going to have them take it, like Monday, Wednesday, Friday for two weeks. And then they're going to take a week off and then they're going to repeat that. I am absolutely given the smallest tiniest dose possible in order to be effective and then monitoring the levels over time. So just be careful with it. A little bit goes a long way with iron.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:52:26]: One thing I'll add too, and I just thought about this when Michael was talking, was people who have so I have celiac disease, so that interferes with my gut absorption of things. And then generally, if your gut's kind of inflamed or you have any digestive issues going on, your absorption is going to be impaired from that perspective, as well as pretty much most nutrients. So it's important that if you think you're having some sort of gut, some gut issue, to go ahead and also work with a doctor or gastro or somebody that can help you get to the root of that. Because no amount of supplementation, if that's happening, is really going to get us completely cured or figured this out or get the absorption up. So it's really important that if you notice that you're taking supplements and they're not working and you're also having a lot of gut issues, see if that's something that there's something could be going on. If you're eating something in your diet that's causing a lot of inflammation, because those are all things that are going to prevent absorption as well. So just wanted to add that in there because that was my experience initially. First time when I found out I had celiac disease. It was because my iron levels were really low and we couldn't get them to get any higher. And I was having other issues, bone issues, all kinds of stuff. So important to recognize how much the gut plays into it and to get that solved. If you're really struggling with this problem, definitely Michael.

Cory Nagler [00:53:45]: Andy, keep me honest here, but I'm getting the takeaway is that iron is really essential, but you want to make sure that you're doing that testing and playing with trial and error on the doses and absorption to make sure that you're getting the most out of it.

Michael Hammond [00:53:56]: Yeah, most definitely. Work with a professional, work with a good doctor. Work with a don't. I don't want to say me as a coach, I'm going to totally be in control of your numbers, but it can help to have that input in terms of a runner's input, a running coach's input on top of what your doctor is also recommending for you. So definitely don't just go willynilly with it. Don't go crazy with it. Be careful, cautious.

Cory Nagler [00:54:20]: Totally. Yeah. Just because a little is good doesn't mean more is better. Hey, RC audience jumping in to let you know this episode will be a two parter and we're back next Friday with more great nutrition advice. Our coaches had so much amazing knowledge to share that the episode ran a little longer than expected, and I want to make sure you don't miss out on any of it. We're going to end it here for now, but tune in next week to hear Alex and Michael give you their thoughts on whether you can boost your running performance with caffeine, beetroot juice and more.

Finn Melanson [00:55:04]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm your host, Finn Malanson. As always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. Please consider connecting with me on Instagram at wasatch. Finn and the rest of our team at Runners Connect. Also consider supporting our show for free with a rating on the Spotify and Apple podcast players. Lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with our guests and premier access to contests and giveaways, then subscribe to our newsletter by going to RunnersConnect. Net podcast. Until next time, happy training.