Underrated or Overrated: Recovery Strategies

Finn Melanson [00:00:10]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn Melanson, and this is the Run to the Top podcast. The podcast dedicated to making you a better runner with each and every episode. We are created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Nailing your workouts and getting in consistent mileage is key to improving as a runner. But In order to absorb this training and to avoid injury, you need to make sure you're prioritizing recovery too. The period between runs is when your muscles and tissues can repair themselves so that you're ready for your next session. Yes.

Finn Melanson [00:00:57]: Recovery is a broad topic that includes anything from complete rest to stretching and and even light exercise. And there are lots of options out there, and the list is growing with brands coming out with new tools and gadgets to help speed up this recovery process. That's why we're bringing you a recovery edition of our underrated overrated format to tell you which recovery topics are gonna deliver results. We're gonna explore the benefits of tons of recovery options out there to answer questions such as, is doing nothing a good recovery strategy? Do you need to cool down after your workout? Which recovery tech actually works? And we'll discuss what other strategies you can use to speed up the recovery process. So let's get into it with underrated and overrated recovery topics. Metabolic profiling, sometimes referred to as MetPro, is an advanced methodology created by transformation specialist Angelo Poli. MetPro analyzes a person's specific response to diet and activity and adjusts based on their personal needs and goals. We'll talk more about it in detail later in the show.

Finn Melanson [00:02:07]: But if you're interested in seeing how it works and getting a free consultation, check it out at metpro.co forward/rtt. That's metpro.c0forward/rtt.

Michael Hammond [00:02:24]: If you're suffering from joint pain or simply wanna get a jump start on protecting your joint health as you get older, you're gonna love our newest sponsor, Joint Health Plus from Prevenex. I'll tell you more about them later in the episode, but if you wanna learn more, head to runnersconnect.net/joint.

Cory Nagler [00:02:43]: Hello, and welcome to a recovery edition of Underrated and Overrated. If you're working hard towards a training goal, can be easy to forget just how important recovery is. As Finn touched on, this is where your body has the chance to absorb all of your hard training And prevent the potentially negative effects of overtraining like burnout or even injury. There are so many ways you can help your body to recover that go beyond rest. And today, We're gonna dive into which of them actually work. I'm so excited to have back with me for this conversation, RC head coach, Michael Emmett. Thanks for joining me today.

Michael Hammond [00:03:18]: Happy to be here, Corey. This is an exciting topic.

Cory Nagler [00:03:20]: Yeah. Absolutely. I think we were just talking before the show about how, it's been a while since you've been on, and the last one was our very first overrated, underrated. So excited to to do another episode.

Michael Hammond [00:03:30]: I love the topic. I'm I'm a little disappointed not to have somebody to go head to head with here and bash heads with and and have Big discussions with, but I'll I'll be sure to, keep it interesting on my end.

Cory Nagler [00:03:40]: Okay. I'll I'll try to push back a little just to give you a little bit of that tension.

Michael Hammond [00:03:44]: There you go. Yeah. I need it to be a fight. You know? I need it to be a brawl for it to be fun.

Cory Nagler [00:03:48]: Perfect. Alright. Well, just to make it feel a little bit like a brawl, For those who haven't heard our last episode of Underrated Overrated, which was on racing topics, we're doing things a little bit differently than that first one and making sure that this is a rapid fire format With a 1 minute time limit on our answers, we're gonna go into different running topics, comment on whether or not they're overrated or underrated, But you're going to hear a bell sound at the end of that 1 minute, when we reach that time, which is gonna sound a little something like this. Alright. Michael, are you ready to go?

Michael Hammond [00:04:20]: I'm ready. I by the way, for for those listening, I am the one who suggested this format It's a Corey, and it was totally with myself in mind because I know I can be a bit of a rambler. So you're welcome in advance That my answers are gonna be more condensed because of this format.

Cory Nagler [00:04:37]: Awesome. I love it. Okay. Our 1st category of topics are going to be Passive recovery. And we're gonna kick it off with foam rolling. Alright, Michael. 1 minute on the clock. Is this overrated or underrated?

Michael Hammond [00:04:50]: Foam rolling, I'm gonna say, is underrated. And the reasons there is that I think foam rolling, ultimately, it's easy, it's convenient, and it's cheap, You know, especially with the topic that you're gonna have coming up next, I think, compared to that that it's it's just so simple to do. You know, you keep a little foam roller in your living room and maybe in the evenings you're watching television or or after you eat dinner or something like that, you just whip it out and do a little foam rolling. The other thing I like about it is that you can you can distinctly, like, Versus massage, which I'll I'll spoil the next topic, versus massage, you have immediate feedback. You can feel exactly what's going on. So if something's a little bit too hard, you don't to say that outright. If something needs to go a little bit harder, you don't have to say that. You can just do it.

Michael Hammond [00:05:29]: You can just, you know, do it yourself. I do like to combine it with, like, a massage stick just because I think foam roller can be a little bit heavy on, like, the calves and things like that sometimes, especially if you're dealing with an injury. But, yeah, on the whole, I think foam rolling we we have a study on on Runner's Connect that shows that that, compared to placebo, it actually does, you know, statistically significant impact, on some recovery measurements. So, yeah, underrated.

Cory Nagler [00:05:54]: Alright. Nicely done, Michael. There you have it. Underrated. And for those who are a little bit less familiar with foam rolling, given that we're making this suggesting to use them, I guess, you you mentioned Cavs, are there any other specific areas that are really beneficial to roll out for runners?

Michael Hammond [00:06:07]: Definitely. You know, you got your IT band, hamster. I mean, really, you can you can if you get creative, you can get Almost anything. You can get your it can be really effective for your back and your shoulders. You can get, like your your pecs. You can get a lot of different stuff with the foam roll. That's why I really think it's massively underrated and also underutilized just because people maybe just roll out their hamstrings a little bit, but you can you can really go to town and and get a good massage with a foam roller.

Cory Nagler [00:06:31]: I think maybe the pecs are a little bit of an underutilized area for runners, but I I could see that helping.

Michael Hammond [00:06:37]: It I'm telling you. It can loosen things up. You got, like, some maybe some, like, rotator cuff tightness in there, stuff that's affecting your shoulder, yeah, it can really get in there and loosen things up.

Cory Nagler [00:06:45]: Awesome. Cool. Just so I know, do we have any, videos to share that we can throw in the links for people on foam rolling?

Michael Hammond [00:06:52]: We definitely do. Yeah. We have Several foam rolling routines that we can throw in there. Some of them, I think, were done live, but you can watch them on replay. We'll throw those in there.

Cory Nagler [00:07:00]: Okay. Perfect. Yeah. We'll include that. So check it out if you have any questions. And, you did spoil our next topic, so we'll get into it, which is massages. So are those underrated or overrated?

Michael Hammond [00:07:11]: Overrated. And and I do I say all these answers every answer I'm gonna give is gonna be within the context of our audience and within the context of people that we've had work with us. Think that, ultimately, massage is it effective? Yeah. Of course. Of course, massage is effective. It's awesome, and everybody loves getting them. It it feels great. You get to work with a professional who knows what they're doing, But it's expensive.

Michael Hammond [00:07:32]: It's time consuming. It's just too much for most people, especially when we compare it to what we just talked about. The fact that you can have this little 20 or $30 thing sitting in your living room that's you know, let's just say I'm pulling this out of nowhere, but let's just say it's let's say foam rolling is like 90% as effective as massage. To me, that's way more worth it because you can do it way more consistently. It's way cheaper and a lot less time consuming. So I think massage, ultimately, As as fun as it is, as nice as it feels, and as as great as some massage therapists are, I think, ultimately, it is overrated.

Cory Nagler [00:08:05]: Nicely done. Alright. We're still 5 seconds left to go. So is there any specific circumstances when you might opt for massage over a foam roller? Or do you think, You know, the the rolling stick and the foam roller can pretty much always cover your bases.

Michael Hammond [00:08:20]: Definitely with chronic injuries, you know, if something is just constantly bothering you. Yeah. That's where if you get a massage therapist, especially if you can find one that is is a runner and and and or Works with runners, works with athletes. You can find someone who will really be able to use massage therapy in an effective way To help you work through that injury, not just to flush out the muscles and get you feeling better, but to really help you work through that injury, that's definitely one where I would Go with a professional rather than just, like, beat the hell out of it with a with a foam roller over and over. Yeah. Injuries for sure.

Cory Nagler [00:08:54]: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think as well for myself, if you're dealing with any kind of chronic injury, it helps to have somebody tell you where that areas to work out as you're kind of guessing sometimes if you're using a foam roller. Cool. Okay. So our next one is probably a little bit context specific, but I'm going to force you to still give one answer, and that's going to be stretching. Michael, do you think this one's overrated or underrated?

Michael Hammond [00:09:18]: I'm going to say underrated and the reason there is that I think that if you do a proper dynamic stretching routine we've talked about this on a prior podcast, but if you do a proper dynamic Stretching routine, it can I mean, again, studies have shown that it has absolute benefits for distance runners? Static stretching hasn't shown as much benefit. Not necessarily someone who says never static stretch. I think it has its place, especially you know, we just talked about injuries. There's definitely a time and place for static stretching. And, also, like, some people will say Static stretching is gonna ruin the elasticity of your muscles and whatever. And I look at, like, gymnasts and, like, football players who can static stretch like crazy, like, way more flexible than I am, and they can sprint really fast. Their muscles are are sure nice and elastic. So I think a good dynamic routine can be Extremely effective.

Michael Hammond [00:10:03]: The caveat here is you really only need to do it 2 or 3 days

Michael Hammond [00:10:07]: a week. You know, some people will

Michael Hammond [00:10:08]: try to embark on this big stretching routine every single day, and you just don't really need to do that. I think a a quality dynamic stretching routine that you do 2 or 3 days a week and and really shouldn't even take all that long, that can be really effective and and do pretty much everything you need out of stretching. So, yeah, underrated.

Cory Nagler [00:10:26]: Alright. Nicely done, Michael. We'll cut it off there. But, but cool. Okay. There you have it. So focus on those dynamic stretching, Tactics. This is something we've talked about a lot on the show.

Cory Nagler [00:10:36]: Are you thinking you mentioned 2 to 3 times a week. That's that's typically what we're looking at for workouts. Are you thinking just before those or is there another optimal time to fit those in?

Michael Hammond [00:10:47]: I should have mentioned that. I actually prefer after, personally. I I think that a dynamic warm up a team, which we'll talk about later, that can be, obviously, very effective beforehand. But in terms of actually going and stretching, especially if you're using, like, a band or something like that, That's really much more effective after as like a post workout recovery tool, but the reality is most people might only be able to do it, you know, before bed or in the evening or something like that. They may not have time after a run, which is fine. I still think it's really effective.

Cory Nagler [00:11:14]: And does that change if you're a morning versus an evening runner, like, either way kind of End of the day or sometime after your run?

Michael Hammond [00:11:20]: Sometime after your run. Yeah. That's all that's all that matters is that it's that it's post run. I mean, it's not that doing it a little bit 4 run is bad by any means, but it's just really a more of like a post workout recovery tool. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:11:31]: Yeah. Alright. Well, apologies to my nighttime runners out there getting back 10 PM, who now have to leave that extra little bit of time.

Michael Hammond [00:11:38]: Hey. That's that's what they get for leaving it that late in the day.

Cory Nagler [00:11:42]: Sometimes life forces you, but yeah. Absolutely. That's firstly, I'm a morning runner, and, I like that it gives you a little extra time to fit in those extra pieces around your run.

Michael Hammond [00:11:51]: No doubt.

Cory Nagler [00:11:52]: Yeah. Okay. The next topic in passive recovery is one of my favorites, and this is nothing, just Sure. Rest. So, Michael, do you think it's a recovery tactic? Is this underrated or overrated?

Michael Hammond [00:12:04]: I I love that you put this one in, Corey, and I'm gonna say downtime is overrated. Think that, from a mental and a physical standpoint, I really think that a lot of an extensive downtime is overrated. The funny thing is most people listening to this are gonna be like, when the hell when the heck do I have downtime? You know? Like, I got I gotta run. I gotta go to work. I got kids. But, You know, for most people, I think that maybe maybe on weekends, that's when it's gonna actually be applicable is when you can actually sit down and do nothing. And, hey, if you only have one day a week or especially if you only have few hours a week, maybe every Sunday to do that. Heck, yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:12:38]: Like, take your downtime if you need it mentally and physically. But I was just talking to, coach Alex Osberg, one of our other coaches about this, how, You know, he's a post collegiate professional runner, and he has kinda experienced that problem where, really, if you're a professional athlete, what you really should be doing after workouts is just Chilling out, doing pretty much nothing, taking naps, you know, resting, relaxing, and he and I are both the types that just kinda can't do that. I feel like I'll go mentally Crazy if I do that. I I see that with a lot of other people too. So, ultimately, ultimately, I think downtime is a little bit overrated. I don't think you should always just be sitting around doing nothing. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:13:11]: Okay. Okay. I think for most of our audience who tend to be a little bit type a and wanna get in all their workouts, it's probably good news to hear that, that they should be keeping with it. Are there any exceptions to that rule where downtime is especially important?

Michael Hammond [00:13:25]: Yeah. What what I said before where, like, look. If if all you have with a busy schedule and a busy training load, if all you have is, like, 2 hours on Sunday afternoons to just lay back on the couch and do absolutely nothing, by all means, You know, take that because not only do you need it physically, you probably need it mentally. I can say that personally now now being a dad, I can certainly say that there's times where if kid's taking a nap, man. Sometimes you just wanna sit there and turn off the brain and just, like, just absolutely nothing. So, yeah, it it can certainly have it. I'm talking about more on, like, a day to day basis. I think it's definitely overrated to just sit back and do absolutely nothing.

Michael Hammond [00:13:58]: I think movement is good. Using our brains is good for us as humans. I think there's benefits to that as well.

Cory Nagler [00:14:04]: Perfect. Yeah. And if anyone is wondering here going, how do I rest if I'm not building in downtime? We will get into some of those more recovery strategies later. But just to finish off our last topic in this category of passive recovery, we're gonna talk about sleep. So, Michael, this is a big topic in recovery. Is it underrated or overrated?

Michael Hammond [00:14:24]: Sleep is underrated. And I don't wanna be cliche about that because, like, Ultimately, it's like, is it underrated? Everyone knows you need sleep. You know, no one thinks like, oh, you know, sleep is bad for you. Everyone understands it's good for you. I think it's underrated, but but because most people just straight up don't get enough and certainly don't get enough quality. You know, old when I was looking at all these topics you sent, I really thought about it in terms of, like, when I think of recovery and anyone ask me about all this stuff, I say, are you taking care of internal recovery first? Are you taking care of sleep, nutrition, And and, ultimately, are you properly training? Are you taking your easy days easy? That's that's kind of a big element of recovery as well. If you're not taking care of those 3 big things, Stuff like foam rolling, stuff like massage, stuff like stretching, that's just irrelevant to you because it's just that's like the cherry on top. You know, that's the last little bit.

Michael Hammond [00:15:10]: Sleep, Nutrition, proper smart training, that's the stuff that gets it done. So sleep, I think massively massively underrated. I think if everybody would just get Try to get 7 hours a night. And I know it's tough with schedules and and families and work and stuff, but, man, massively underrated. Just get your sleep. Get your rest.

Cory Nagler [00:15:29]: Okay. Get your sleep, and you you throw out that number 7 hours. I often hear this referred to as a range. Is that kind of a minimum, or is that kind of Optimal number.

Michael Hammond [00:15:39]: That's a number that I've I think I've settled on for a lot of people because I I I too often hear 8 hours is kind of the default. Everybody hears that. Then so a lot of people throw out 9 because you you look at those, like, REM cycles and it's every 90 minutes, so 9 hours is like the absolute optimum. But I just don't know anyone Who's an adult, like, in their twenties or or older who's able to consistently get 9 hours of sleep? I just I I've never seen it, you know, someone who's not, like, again, like a pro athlete. I've never seen that. I don't even like to say it because then if you get 7 hours, you're gonna feel like a failure. And whereas most people who get 7 hours of sleep consistently tend to find themselves pretty healthy and pretty rested. So it's it's not a scientific number necessarily.

Michael Hammond [00:16:18]: It's just something that in my experience working with runners that I've found to be a solid number to to shoot for.

Cory Nagler [00:16:25]: And you threw out something that's a theme across a lot of our topics here, which is consistency. To what extent does that apply to sleep? I know, your mileage might vary week to week or even day to day. You might have a big workout. Is it really as long as you maintain those 7 hours, you'll be fine, or are there maybe fluctuations days where you need more, or is it okay to kinda make up for it some days and have less others?

Michael Hammond [00:16:48]: There will probably be fluctuations. I do think you that last point you made is really good. That last question about, like, making it up, I I don't see that as being that effective in terms of, like, I don't think people should try to, like, hack it, you know, till they get, like, oh, I'm gonna get 5 hours tonight and then I'm gonna get 8 tomorrow night. I, like, don't. I would never recommend anyone to purposefully try to do that, but, hey, reality strikes. My son got up at 4:50 this morning, And, you know, it is what it is. I didn't get a great night sleep last night. Yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:17:15]: I'm gonna try to hit hit the sack a little bit early tonight to try to kinda, quote, unquote, make up for it, But it's consistency that counts. That said, hey. After the day of a long run, are you gonna maybe need a little a little nap or something or maybe a little bit extra sleep that night? Yeah. Probably. The more you run, the more stress you put on your body. No doubt you need more rest. But if you get 7 hours every single night or if you maybe some night 6, some night 8, You're probably gonna feel pretty good. Maybe you'll, you know, need a little extra some days, but most of the time I find that people feel pretty good getting that.

Cory Nagler [00:17:48]: Okay. Good to know. I think that consistency of routine is helpful too. At least for me, personally, if you're kinda going to bed and waking up at the same time, it makes it a lot easier.

Michael Hammond [00:17:58]: Yeah. Ex exactly. It it keeping it the same, keeping routines, that stuff helps massively.

Cory Nagler [00:18:03]: Yeah. And for those listening, I do have to apologize to Michael we're recording in the morning, so did not realize your son was gonna wake up at 4:15. I apologize for that.

Michael Hammond [00:18:13]: No. It's all good. Hey. This is the reality. We we he got Sick, unfortunately. So he's he's kinda, like, just not quite sleeping as well as normal, but, hey, that's the reality of it. You know?

Cory Nagler [00:18:22]: Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. I hope he feels better soon.

Michael Hammond [00:18:24]: Yeah. Yeah. No. He'll be all

Cory Nagler [00:18:26]: good. Awesome. Okay. So that brings us to our next category of topics. And this one is gonna be active recovery. So there there are ways, believe it or not, where, you can make sure that you're recovering while still moving. And I think this is especially popular for runners because we just tend to like to be active. So the first one I've got is cross training.

Cory Nagler [00:18:46]: Michael, what do you think about cross training?

Michael Hammond [00:18:49]: This was a tough one for me, man. I I struggle with this one because I think cross training Absolutely has its place. I'll give it to athletes sometimes. I think it definitely has its place. On the whole, though, looking at it as a topic, I'm gonna say it's a little bit overrated. And the reason there is that, Ultimately, cross training bike you know, by that we mean biking, swimming, aqua jogging, elliptical. It's just not a proper Substitute. I don't like looking at it as a substitute.

Michael Hammond [00:19:13]: I like looking at it as a supplement. So, like, you have your running training. You you can supplement that effectively with cross training, but you can't place running necessarily. At least it's not a perfect replacement. It's great cardio. It's it's incredible to get you you know, it can get you really fit, but running is different. For for reference on that, I think it was in o nine Lance Armstrong, I know he's kind of you know, every all the drugs and stuff, but he was really fit back then. This guy was in a good shape, and he only ran 246 in the New York City marathon.

Michael Hammond [00:19:39]: He had Alberto Salazar, Hisham El Guerrouj, mild world record holder, pacing him. He had everything he needed to run a great marathon, and he, quote, unquote, only ran 246. So I think cross training, Little bit overrated, but can have its place in in training plan.

Cory Nagler [00:19:53]: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad you kinda said only the way you did because, of course, 46 is rather impressive, but we'll we'll keep this in the context of somebody who's won the Tour de France multiple times.

Michael Hammond [00:20:04]: Exactly. I I I don't I don't remember exactly what he was aiming for, but there's no doubt he was aiming for quite a bit faster than that. And I think it was a it was it was just kind of a letdown for the run the running community was like, oh my god. What is this gonna do in this race. This is gonna be huge, you know. And it was a I think it was a little bit of a letdown for him to, again, only run 246 for a, you know, 8 time 7 time Tour de France winner.

Cory Nagler [00:20:25]: Well, I'll I'll save the speculation on whether or not maybe that's because he, stopped the doping before Running that marathon. But just in terms of the cross training itself, I'm gonna quote one of other other coaches here, Alex Forsberg, if you're listening, who loves to say, keep the main thing the main thing. And I think, Yeah. For running, that that definitely applies. There's a lot of specificities there, but, one exception that does come to mind, and I'm curious your thoughts, is kind of Injury when it is harder to get in that running and personally dealing with a bit of, IT band and TFL stuff myself. So I'm I'm finding there's a little bit more of a need to that. Do you think in that instance, do you value cross training a little bit more? Or do you still think that typically Rest is the best thing in those circumstances.

Michael Hammond [00:21:08]: No. Undoubtedly, I think cross training is effective in in injury cases. There's there's no doubt. I think it's When someone is training healthy, training well, that's where, again, I use I'll still use it. By no means even though I said it's overrated, I still use it, but it's a supplemental tool. When you're injured, you can't you're not supplementing any running because you you're not running. That's the case where, you know, just keeping that cardio up with with even just simple, like, 30 to 60 minutes a day of of cross training, of biking, swimming, aqua jogging, elliptical, it can just make such a massive difference. It's to me, it's more about, like, Maintaining fitness than it necessarily is about, like, gaining massive and not that you can't gain fitness if you wanna really go all out, but it's more about, like, maintaining so that your fitness doesn't take a nosedive.

Michael Hammond [00:21:54]: If you're if you have a really major injury, you know, a month plus, we don't want that fitness to just Completely nose dive. We wanna maintain a little bit, and that's where cross training can be super, super effective.

Finn Melanson [00:22:09]: Earlier this year, I was introduced to a nutritional methodology called metabolic profiling, which analyzes a person's specific response to diet and activity and adjusts accordingly based on personal needs and goals. In a sport like running where we are constantly fine tuning Our workouts, our long runs, and our recovery efforts inside our training plans based on inputs and outputs, this kind of approach to the nutritional aspect of the sport Just made sense to me. And that's where MetPro comes in. Under this metabolic profiling framework, you are assigned to A personal trainer nutritionist who works with you based on a series of baseline tests, and it becomes this all encompassing fitness, Nutrition, weight loss, and overall lifestyle program for all types of runners to benefit from. Personally, I have not only benefited from their 1 on 1 nutritional coaching, but also their app, which keeps the process of tracking your weight, your meals, and workouts very simple. If you're looking for accountability, A way to lose weight and to get stronger as an athlete? The Nut Pro is for you. I'm incredibly impressed with the whole process. And right now, You can get a free 30 minute consultation in metabolic assessment just by heading to metpro.coforward/rtt.

Finn Melanson [00:23:25]: That's metpro.c0forward/rtt.

Michael Hammond [00:23:36]: Let's face it. Running is hard on your joints, and it only gets worse as you get older. Repetitive stress inflicted on your joints from running can slowly break down joint cartilage and reduce flexibility, which creates a vicious cycle of further breakdown and pain. That's why I started researching how I could start to protect my joints as I got older, and this led me to Joint Health Plus from Prevenex. The main active ingredient NEM is clinically proven to reduce joint pain, joint stiffness, and improve joint flexibility in 7 to 10 days and clinically proven to protect joint cartilage from breakdown during exercise. In fact, NEM is clinically proven to be up to 5 times more beneficial than glucosamine chondroitin alone or in combination. I saw immediate results when I started using Joint Health Plus, and that's why I reached out to Previnix to see if we could put together an offer for you guys. So if you're suffering from joint pain or simply want to get a jump start on protecting your joint health as you get older, head to runnersconnect.net/joint And use the code rtt15 to save 15% on your first order.

Michael Hammond [00:24:35]: Plus, they offer a 100% money back guarantee, no questions asked. Again, that's runnersconnect.net/joint, j o I n t, and use the code r t t t fifteen Save 15% on your first order.

Cory Nagler [00:24:55]: Yeah. And, of course, you can build fitness. There's triathletes who run-in incredible times when Jorgensen transferred from the triathlon being a prime example. But, I know if, if you're a runner like me, the cross training is not as enjoyable as the running, so it can be hard to put in the level that would be required to actually build your fitness.

Michael Hammond [00:25:12]: Don't even get me started on the pool, man. I it just that that feeling of, like, I haven't done it in quite a long time, but that feeling of going on early, like, winter morning having to get in the pool. I know you go inside and stuff, but it's just, it's just the worst feeling. I'd rather go for a run any day. So I'm I happily say that that one's a little bit overrated.

Cory Nagler [00:25:29]: Oh, absolutely. I was recently with my chiro talking about options. And she she kept coming back to this idea of of pool running to maintain your fitness. And It's practical. It would probably be helpful, but I just know there's no way I'm gonna get around to doing that.

Michael Hammond [00:25:43]: Exact exactly. You have to ultimately, you have to work within what are you gonna actually do on a day to day, week to week basis. And if, like, if every single moment in the pool is absolute misery for you, then I don't really think that's worth it. Maybe we can find an alternative cross training method, but I just don't think that that's gonna be worth it. I I know some point, you gotta face some of the stuff that you don't like very much to get better, and that's reality, but if you just hate every moment of it, yeah, I I don't think that's worth it at all.

Cory Nagler [00:26:10]: Perfect. Thank you for validating my hatred of the pool.

Michael Hammond [00:26:14]: You got it, buddy. That's what I'm here for.

Cory Nagler [00:26:16]: Awesome. Okay. Our next Topic in active recovery is going to be walks. So, Michael, when you're slowing it down and going for walks as opposed to runs, Is this underrated or overrated?

Michael Hammond [00:26:30]: So glad you asked about this one, because I think it's underutilized. I think walks are massively underrated. I think going for a good walk, Honestly, like, from a physical perspective, I think it actually has merit. It it loosens things up. It it gets some more blood flowing than just sitting you know, we compare it to, like, when we talked about downtime earlier, going for a little walk, it's relaxing, but that's where I really look at the body and the mind, You know, it's going for a walk, especially if you if you live anywhere near, like, trails and you can get out in nature, get out in the woods, Studies have literally shown that there's, like, a a major relaxing component and it can even, like, open up parts of, like, your brain and and thought processes and stuff, help you process things in a massive, massive way that just sitting around or sitting at your desk or something like that. I I'm a big going for a walk if I need to Process like even stuff to do with my career, with business, like, if I need to think about things of the day, whatever. I think going for a walk is is awesome mentally and it Still, it has a little bit of aerobic benefit. We're getting the heart rate up a little bit.

Michael Hammond [00:27:28]: So, yeah, I think walks, big time underrated.

Cory Nagler [00:27:32]: Nicely done, Michael. Right on the minute. And, I love that you're a fan of walks because for me personally, I find, like, It's a nice way to to break it up to to get out and kind of take things nice and slow. I I get a lot of sly remarks about, How I'm a slow walker, but I think when you're spending all this time training, it's nice to just kinda take it easy every now and then.

Michael Hammond [00:27:53]: Absolutely. And also, I think that I didn't mention this in my answer, but I think that walks have a have a huge part of a training plan for some let's say someone is starting running for the 1st time in their life and Especially if they're overweight. Like, even doubly so if they're overweight. Someone who's who's massively overweight, who's starting, I don't want them to start running. It's terrible for your joints, terrible for your knees. I want them to start with walking because they're gonna be able to to go much further. They're gonna enjoy it a lot more. They're gonna be able to get that heart rate up and that they can use that to build into running.

Michael Hammond [00:28:22]: We'll even at Runners Connect commonly use run walk plans for people who are starting out fitness because you start someone out who's never run before, they can't keep their heart rate down when they're running. They just can't do it. It's impossible when you're not when you don't have a level of cardio fitness. That's where we'll we'll even use walking in in a lot of training plans, so yeah, I think walking massively underrated.

Cory Nagler [00:28:41]: Yeah. No. And while you you mentioned as you're Starting out. But at the other extreme, if you're an experienced ultra runner and you're running up steep terrain, you know, you you could even be would be doing a lot of walking, so I think definitely there shouldn't be any stigma about incorporating those into your routine, be it recovery or even workouts.

Michael Hammond [00:28:58]: Oh, yeah. I see those mountain runners who are like I mean, they're they're going up a hill. I mean, yeah. It's like it would be silly for them to try to run up those hills. Yeah. It definitely Definitely has its place in in ultramarathons. That's for sure.

Cory Nagler [00:29:09]: Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. Our last topic in this Active recovery category is one that we kinda touched on earlier, but it's warm up and cool down, which I'm gonna group together. Michael, what are your thoughts on those and whether they're overrated or underrated?

Michael Hammond [00:29:22]: I think warm up and warm ups and cool downs are definitely underrated. And it's kinda similar to sleep where I get that everyone most people know that they're important, so maybe they're not technically underrated, but they're definitely underutilized, you know. One thing I'll see a lot is an athlete will a runner will, like, They'll be short on time for their workout and what are they going to cut? They cut the warm up or they cut the cool down, especially the cool down. Poor cool downs, RIP, man. They get cut out so fast. So People cut that and I'll be like, no. I'd much rather you cut one of the intervals on the workout. I'd much rather you cut a mile off the workout than cut a mile off the cool down.

Michael Hammond [00:29:56]: That's that's how important this stuff is. Warming up is gonna help you, you know, get your muscles ready, help prevent injury, help just even mentally prepare you for a workout. Cool downs are gonna just just Bring the heart rate down, bring everything back down, again boost that recovery process. I think warm ups and cool downs are massive. It's one of those things that When I give them out, I know that they're important, but I see so many people who don't have a proper training plan who aren't really doing them. So, yeah, usually underrated. Usually underrated. Definitely do your warm ups and cool

Cory Nagler [00:30:24]: Okay. Okay. So Michael, I know you wanted a little contention here. So I'm gonna push back on you just a little bit. I know a lot of the time, if I'm personally training for a marathon, you get those extended warm ups and cool downs when you're trying to build in mileage. Sometimes my coach will put in, cooldowns as long as, like, 7 to 10 kilometers to build it in. That that's definitely the first thing to go. Does it depend a little bit on what your warm up and cool down is? Or should you be always prioritizing that over the workout?

Michael Hammond [00:30:52]: That that's a good that's a good point. I do think it also depends on the out and it depends what you're training for. If you're doing like a, you know yeah. If you're in like heavy marathon training and you're doing like a 7 to 8 mile steady run at, like, roughly marathon pace. Is your warm up and cool down as essential as it as it would be for, like, 400 meter VO 2 max Intervals? No. Of course not. It's just a it's just different because you're not really it's not that big ramp up and then ramp back down like it is for more of like a shorter speed workout. So there's definitely caveats there.

Michael Hammond [00:31:24]: I still think it's worth it especially because this what here's the thing I hate seeing is I hate how it's so commonplace in the running world that people they have a pace that they're supposed to do their run even if it's an easy run, and they they leave the door and, bam, immediately they're running that pace. I I despise it. I wish I I wish we wouldn't see that anymore. I wish these people would look at the Kenyans. I'm talking about, like, sub 2 10 marathoner Kenyans who will go out the door running, like, 10 or 11 minute mile pace. By the end of the run, they're running, like, 5 or 6 minute mile pace, but they know how to really warm up into a run. No matter what the run is, I think you should always warm up into it. So I you it's a good question.

Michael Hammond [00:31:58]: I'm I'm glad you brought that up because there's definitely, Yeah. There's definitely levels to it. There's there's gray areas here, but on the whole, if I think you should always prioritize doing a proper warm up and cool down at least 1 mile warm up and 1 mile cool down no matter what.

Cory Nagler [00:32:11]: Perfect. Okay. That was gonna be my next question is, kind of, how much should you be making sure you build? Like, you think both warm up and cool down, kind of, whatever your fitness, that 1 mile is a good minimum?

Michael Hammond [00:32:19]: That's a good minimum. I think that's where, like, hey. If somebody has a 2 mile, 1 mile, 2 mile cooldown and they're super short on time and and that that cooldown, I still want them to get, like, at least a mile. You know, just Just get a nice slow mile, cool things off, relax the muscles a little bit, and it's gonna help boost recovery rather than just finishing at your door, You know, running hard and then and then going about your day. It just it has such massive benefits. I think minimum a mile on both ends.

Cory Nagler [00:32:44]: Okay. And, kinda, last question before we move on from this. But we did touch on the warm up being more than just, you know, running or walking. There is, kind of, that more Dynamic, flexibility. There's your activation drills. Where do they fall into the into this realm of importance?

Michael Hammond [00:33:01]: Yeah. I I would say for for anything shorter and quicker or just or just, like, maybe your 1 big workout of the week, you Let's say you have your 1 big, like, focus workout of the week, even if it's you're in marathon training and it's like a long threshold session or something like that, those are the days where I would do a little bit more thorough of a warm up for sure. For me personally, and this is what I I'll give to any athletes I work with, I like to do A along with running a running warm up, so at least that 1 mile, is right before you start running, before you do anything, is a quick dynamic warm up routine. I I I haven't my active warm up routine, it takes 2, 2 and a half minutes tops. This is not some super long, you know, takes forever type routine. It's like Squats, jumping jacks, you know, some some twists, some hip stuff, just just really quick warm up routine to get things going, get the blood flowing, get to some of those muscles that you wouldn't necessarily warm up just by running. Get those warmed up a little bit. Get those firing.

Michael Hammond [00:33:55]: And I think that's something that that every day is ideal because I think it's just so It's such an easy thing to do and it doesn't take much more time, but definitely, I would focus on, like, 1 big workout a week. That's the one where I'd be like, yeah, we're gonna get a proper warm up And a proper cool down for this, the other days, it's not that it's not important at all. It's just that it's it's definitely not the level of importance that it is on that one big workout day.

Cory Nagler [00:34:18]: For sure. Yeah. And when you build another time constraints, be it work, family, social obligations, I think that's where you really need to prioritize. I I think we have thrown in that, that routine in another episode, but we can include it in the show notes again just because I think it's helpful reference to have kind of that quick routine to build in.

Michael Hammond [00:34:34]: Definitely. Like I said, I don't be scared of it. It's less than 3 minutes. Once you get all this stuff down, it it seriously, you do it so fast and I find that people really actually end up really enjoying it and finding that it makes them it it doesn't necessarily make it to where as soon as you start running, you're perfectly warmed up, but it just just just like it like it's like it It primes everything for the run you're about to do, and you can warm up a little bit quicker and ultimately feel better.

Cory Nagler [00:34:56]: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good way to put it. Alright. I'm gonna move on to our last category of the day, which is recovery tech. So the first thing I'm gonna talk about is quite a broad topic, but this is Compression gear. What do you think of this topic, Michael?

Michael Hammond [00:35:12]: I'm going to say compression gear is overrated. It was about maybe 10, 11, 12 years ago where this started to become such a huge thing in the running world, like the compression socks, compression sleeves. And I'll never forget when I was working at a running store at the time, and I'll never forget when, like, the the tech reps started telling, like, the stores that You needed to be a little bit careful with the calf sleeves because they were finding that blood was, like, pooling in people's feet when they when they if they wore calf sleeves, like, not walking around or they were sitting around, and I was just, like, this is just crazy. I think that I don't see how constant compression can be a good thing. People Normatec is something I don't have a lot of personal experience like those, the the recovery boots. People people love them. People say they feel really good, but ultimately, I guess that's just a a way of doing massage, You know? So I look at compression gear as sort of like stuff like ice baths. It might make, like, logical sense.

Michael Hammond [00:36:04]: Oh, reduce inflammation right after you workout, but Then you find out that inflammation is good. It's a part of the recovery process. So ultimately, overrated. Overrated.

Cory Nagler [00:36:13]: Okay. Good answer, Michael. And let's bring it to the extreme side of tech. What do you think of, like, NormaTek boots or these ultra pricey tools? Are they any more helpful or do they fall into that same category?

Michael Hammond [00:36:25]: Yeah. That's where I I I have to look at it from all perspectives. I can't just look at it as as like, I look at something like money as very important. You know, when I talked about a foam roller, One of the biggest positives to me was the low price point. When I look at NormaTec Recovery Boots, the insane price tag is just a huge turn off to me. I don't think that that stuff is worthwhile for for almost anyone to to look into. Even if it has benefits, they're probably marginal And I I just don't think that they're yeah. I don't think they're worthwhile.

Michael Hammond [00:36:53]: I think they're hugely overrated.

Cory Nagler [00:36:56]: Okay. So I, do you know what those NormaTek boots cost? I'm assuming it's in the 100, but I guess you can save your money if you were thinking about going out and splurging online.

Michael Hammond [00:37:05]: I think if it were only in the 100, it would probably be maybe a little bit more digestible if it were only $100 or so, but it's I I think it's significantly more than that for for, like, the The top end, I think people have found, like, Amazon knockoffs and stuff that are much cheaper, but you're still gonna run a a pretty big price tag for those and I like I said, I I think all things considered, I just don't think it's worth it with all the other recovery tools that you have available for you for much cheaper and also much more proven to be effective.

Cory Nagler [00:37:33]: Yeah. Yeah. Running, warm ups, all free.

Michael Hammond [00:37:38]: Exactly. Exactly. All that stuff's free. I mean, good food isn't free, unfortunately, but But it's something that we all know is just so hugely effective and you're gonna get way more out of that and good sleep than you are out of, you know, Norma's tech recovery boots. Not that they can't help. It's not that they don't do anything. It's it's I just I have to look at the, you know, cost benefit analysis ultimately, and I think that, it just doesn't doesn't quite ring, know, worth it to me.

Cory Nagler [00:38:01]: Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Okay. The next piece of tech I'm gonna touch on is massage guns. So where do you stand on this topic?

Michael Hammond [00:38:09]: I stand mostly the same in terms of they're they're a little bit overrated. I think that I gotta say that, at our at our retreat in Flagstaff In July, I used one for the 1st time. Jeff had had brought 1 there, and I was like, dang. This thing feels pretty good. So by no means are are these in, like, recovery boots and compression stuff, By no means am I saying that they have 0 effect. I think that they they can feel really good. There can some maybe there's a little bit of placebo effect going on, but, ultimately, I look at this stuff like It's massage, it's foam roller. Like, really, it's it's not that much massively different.

Michael Hammond [00:38:40]: I know there's compression with, like, the the recovery boots and the massage guns can really get into, like, certain spots, But ultimately, I just think that for me, a a foam roller and a and one of those little massage sticks, which total run you under $50 for the for the both of them, That to me is is a full package, and then a stretching band that costs, you know, $5 at Dick's Sporting Goods or something like that, that's that's, like, the full package to me. I just anything else is gonna have to, like, really, really convince me that it's worth the price point in order for me to say it's worth it. So, yeah, underrated or overrated, I should say.

Cory Nagler [00:39:14]: I was gonna say Yeah. No. Overrated is our answer. But you you you came at the end and said, You really like the feeling, but it's a little bit close to the foam roller or some other tools. So if that cost were down, if you found it on sale, say, it worth $3 and it was the same price as a as a foam roller, would it then be worth it?

Michael Hammond [00:39:33]: You know, I I don't think price is the only thing. I think, ultimately, it becomes just a lot of stuff. You think about running, there's a lot of travel involved. You're thinking about what can I take to my races, you know, what can I take if I if I have to travel for business, what can I take with me there, and I just I I'm not saying those are those aren't portable? I mean, NormaTec boots are anything but portable. Those things are huge. But, but even massage gun, just look at it as ultimately it's just a lot of stuff accumulation, and it's that's why I I say it's it's not that it does nothing. It's not that it doesn't feel good. That thing felt amazing.

Michael Hammond [00:40:03]: When I used it, I was, wow, this feels really good. It's really just ultimately, it has to really, really convince me that it's so so worth it For me to even add that stuff to my you know, maybe I'm a little bit of a minimalist when it comes down to it, but it has to really convince me. And thus far, it just hasn't yet.

Cory Nagler [00:40:19]: Yeah. Yeah. No. I think that's good. There's so many different tools we have. Once you have the the foam roller, the stretching bands, the weights, it can really add up.

Michael Hammond [00:40:27]: It can really add up. You can yeah. You can it it's getting it's like getting a little bit close to cycling for me. Like, I love how running is such a simple sport and doesn't require 1,000 and 1,000 of dollars of of gear, but, man, if you if you want to, you can you can, you can accumulate quite a bit of expensive gear with running. Not that none of it's worth it at all, it's just I just maybe I'm a little bit more of a minimalist with that. I just like to keep it as simple as possible.

Cory Nagler [00:40:51]: Yeah. This is a bit of a tangent, but I was just talking with a buddy of mine who's a triathlete about the these new Adidas shoes that came out that are, like, $500. And threw out that he recently bought a $4,000 tri bike and I nearly had a heart attack. So good if you can keep, your equipment minimal.

Michael Hammond [00:41:04]: And you you wouldn't even believe it. And, you know, your buddy will probably tell you Nothing. Like, we're talking about $10 plus for, like, really, really insanely legit bikes. It's it's absolutely out of control. Again, that's something I love about running. I hate I hate that even running shoes are getting so expensive now, but especially with, like, the the carbon shoes and stuff, but it's still a relatively inexpensive sport When you think about biking and skiing and, you know, all the stuff that just 1,000 of dollars just to get in, just like a basic entry point. So I I I like to preserve that sort of pure quality of running as much as I can.

Cory Nagler [00:41:39]: Yeah. Alright. I'm curious your thoughts on the next one because it's a little less, kind of high-tech and expensive, which is KT tape. What do you think of this as a recovery tool?

Michael Hammond [00:41:50]: Big time overrated KT Tape. And and the my reasoning there is that I look at KT Tape as a Band Aid. You know, it's it's not actually helping anything. It's not actually changing anything fundamentally. So the way I see it, if you're having to tape up Constantly, you know, every run or or weekly or whatever, we need to get to the root of the problem. You know, we need to figure out what is going on beneath the hood here that we can go fix through strength training, through maybe a a a better training plan. Whatever it is that we need to do, we need to go fix that. You need to work with a PT or or a proper coach or something like that.

Michael Hammond [00:42:26]: I just I look at that stuff and I just see it as a huge Band Aid that is just hiding a much deeper rooted problem, and I and I think that that it's kinda like Ibuprofen. If take a bunch of Ibuprofen, yeah, you're probably not gonna feel whatever injury it is you have going on. That does not mean that the problem is fixed. So, yeah, I'm gonna say KT tape, big time, overrated.

Cory Nagler [00:42:45]: Okay. And I think that's a good comparison with the Band Aid just because it can often, literally feel like you're putting a big Band Aid on.

Michael Hammond [00:42:51]: Exactly. Exactly. I I think that yeah. It's it's That's what it is. It's a Band Aid. It's it's yeah. It even kinda looks like 1. And it's you're just you're not solving the deeper problem.

Michael Hammond [00:43:00]: It's it it can keep people going and then it It allows them for a little while to ignore the deeper problem, but ultimately it's gonna come out in the wash, like, that that deep problem is just gonna become a deeper problem and a bigger problem, and eventually, KT Tape is absolutely not gonna be enough to to solve it. So, yeah, big time overrated here.

Cory Nagler [00:43:19]: Okay. Okay. So that brings me to our last topic. And I'm I'm noticing a trend here in the tech that, we're doing on the side of a lot of them being Overrated. So curious where you're gonna fall on this one. But, I'm gonna call this specialist footwear. But the specifically, what came to mind when I was thinking of is like insoles or something you you add into your into your shoe other than what what comes with it. So, I guess on on that topic with that perspective For this last one, do you think it's underrated or overrated?

Michael Hammond [00:43:49]: Yeah. You nailed me down, man. I really sound like a hater right now, but I'm gonna I'm gonna yet again say overrated because I think it it all of this stuff ultimately is abandoned. I'm not necessarily someone who's against shoes. By no means am I telling people to go run barefoot all the time. It's just that when I look at insole technology and I've I've looked at this pretty extensively. Like, I I was kind of, like, hesitant when I I mentioned earlier I worked at a running store. I was very hesitant Sell this stuff.

Michael Hammond [00:44:15]: This stuff is cheap, lightweight, shippable product, high margin, so they want you selling this stuff, and I was very hesitant to do that because I was like, do they really need it? Is this really gonna help someone's problem or is it that same thing that I mentioned with KT tape? Is this just a Band Aid that's just, like, holding that precious little arch up and and, you know, keeping everything intact, whereas in reality, they need to do more strengthening. They need to strengthen their hips. They need to strengthen their balance work. They need to to maybe get a more neutral gait, improve that over, you know, over pronation, whatever it is that they're trying to fix with the insoles and stuff. So ultimately, yeah, I think that stuff also overrated.

Cory Nagler [00:44:52]: Nice. Nice. Okay. So across the board for tech, we're going with overrated. Michael, you might just be too honest to be a salesperson saying that, it's it's superfluous and unnecessary.

Michael Hammond [00:45:03]: What can I say? Yeah. I I it really comes down to just trying to look out for for the individual and not just it's I never want to just, like, give someone something to solve their immediate problem if it's hiding the bigger problem, And that's what I look at with a lot of this type of stuff, with the KT tape, with the specialized footwear, and honestly, even stuff like maybe even compression gear. Somebody has a chronic calf injury and the solution is to wear compression socks. That's not a solution. Like that's it might help in the short term. Like it might. I'm not saying it can't help, But that's not really solving the problem. What's going on with your biomechanics? What's going on with your running form that's causing your calves to be chronically tight or or to to have chronic tears? What's going on there? That's what I wanna know.

Michael Hammond [00:45:45]: So yeah. I mean, maybe it makes me a terrible salesman, but that's ultimately what I wanna look at is get to the root of it, Run with the least amount of stuff as possible and run I don't wanna say as naturally as possible, because again, I'm not necessarily a big barefoot guy, but Run to where you can stay healthy without the need for all these Band Aids that you're putting on yourself.

Cory Nagler [00:46:04]: Yeah. Absolutely. So Let's get to the root of it. I think we we've tackled a lot of topics and said that all these tech gear, a lot of them are overrated. You you've come down even on, like, Downtime and rest and said that's overrated. So to kind of summarize And we have touched on some of these. But if you really want to maximize your recovery, For our listeners who are putting in tough training, what are those basics that you really want to focus on?

Michael Hammond [00:46:28]: I brought this up earlier when we're talking about sleep, but I'm glad you asked because it's so important to look at those those 3 internal recovery methods, sleep, proper nutrition, and Proper training. By proper training, I mostly mean, like, smart workouts that you aren't, you know, taking them to the well every single time, Proper easy running. Remember, easy running is not a pace, easy is an effort to where you're actually able to absorb all the training you're doing, recover day to day, week to week, That if you do those 3 things, all this other stuff every single other topic that we talked about is just gravy. It's just gravy. It's not that it can't help. I just I have to see people get the foundation first. You know, I know it's it's not quite as, like, it's not quite as sexy. Like I said, I'm not I'm not a good salesman.

Michael Hammond [00:47:12]: This stuff doesn't sell. Know, getting good getting your sleep, getting proper nutrition, like a balanced diet, whatever, that stuff doesn't sell, but it is it's it's never gonna lose. It's undefeated. Taking care of those 3 things is absolutely undefeated. If you do those 3 things, get those down consistently, then you can use some of this other stuff, Then you can start foam rolling. Then you can do a proper stretching regimen. Then you can maybe even try some of that other stuff that I dogged on in the last part, the compression gear and the the, you know, Normatec boots and the massage guns, maybe you can try that stuff and get that last little, like, 1, 2, 3, 4%, but but it's meaningless if you don't have those big 3 taken care of. So that's why I really like to look at that internal recovery versus pretty much almost everything we talked about, Excluding sleep is more I look at more as like external recovery.

Michael Hammond [00:48:00]: You gotta take care of what's going on inside. I even look at it even with stuff like warm ups and cool downs, If if I have 2 people, 1 person who is diligently doing their warm ups and cool downs and and also is going right right away and getting a proper, for, you know, carb protein recovery snack right after their workout, but their general diet is kinda crappy. They eat a lot of pizza and and, you know, not not Just not getting enough calories, getting a lot of crappy calories versus another person who, yeah, skips the cool down here and there, whatever, doesn't doesn't, you know, doesn't eat for 2 hours after their workout, whatever, but their consistent diet is really quality, like 80 to 90% of their calories are good healthy whole foods, I'm gonna take that latter person 10 times out of 10. That person is gonna blow the 1st person out of the water because it's so much more powerful on a Week to week, month to month, even year to year basis, way more powerful than any of these external recovery methods. Take care of the sleep, nutrition and Smart training and all this other stuff is just just gravy.

Cory Nagler [00:49:02]: Yeah. And I think that's a great way to end off because we touched on a lot of fun topics here, but at the end of the day, a lot of them are that Icing on the cake, and, it's it's easy to lose perspective and and forget the big picture on what those key pieces are that are gonna really move the needle and make you a better runner.

Michael Hammond [00:49:17]: Exactly. We gotta gotta build have the foundation. Any any proper house is built with a proper foundation first, and then we can kinda add the furnishings and stuff like that. It's not that it can't help. It's not that it can't even make a a maybe even a substantial difference, it's just that not only is it a small it's a it's a marginal difference, it also it won't work at all if you're not taking care of the other stuff. You know, it's kind of like I look at this very similar to supplements with like versus nutrition, you know. I think supplements are fantastic. We talked this in a prior episode.

Michael Hammond [00:49:44]: I think supplements are awesome, but if you're not eating a proper diet, then the supplements aren't even going to work. Not only are they not gonna work at all, they're they're they're certainly not gonna have that 2 or 3, 4% benefit that we're looking for with stuff like that. They're not even gonna have that because you're not taking care of the foundation first. So Take care of the foundation, and I like how the way you said it. It's it's the, you know, it's the cherry on top. It's the the, you know what was the I said gravy, I said cherry, and then there was another another that you use more Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:50:10]: The icing on the cake.

Michael Hammond [00:50:11]: The icing on the cake. There we go. I was looking for it. So it's definitely the icing on the cake. It it can help, and it can make it Even a little bit better, it can make it your whole all your running a little bit better, but it's gotta have the foundation first.

Cory Nagler [00:50:22]: Awesome. Yeah. So if you're listening, feel free to Go get ready for bed. Get your 7 hours or getting a healthy meal, but, hope everyone's recovering well. And, Michael, thank you so much for, helping me explore this topic.

Michael Hammond [00:50:34]: You're very welcome. That's a fun one. I know I know I did gave a lot of overrated answers, but I hope I explained my reasoning there, in the end for everybody.

Cory Nagler [00:50:43]: Absolutely. This was great. Awesome. Thanks so much.

Michael Hammond [00:50:46]: Thanks, Corey. It was fun.

Finn Melanson [00:51:02]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm your host, Finn Melanson. As always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. Please consider connecting with me on Instagram at Wasatch Finn and the rest of our team at Runners Connect also consider supporting our show for free with a rating on the Spotify and Apple Podcast players. And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with our guests, and premier access to contests and giveaways, then subscribe to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netback/podcast. Until next time, happy