Trials and Triumph: How Jacob Heslington Overcame the Odds to Finish 21st at the US Olympic Marathon Trials

Guest [00:00:00]: Coming back from that, my doctors were some were optimistic, and some were, like, telling my parents when they were asking, like, is he gonna be able to run again? And they're like, ladies, like, we're trying to keep him alive right now. Don't, like, don't even bother about is he gonna run again? So that's that's kind of where that was a a big thing to come back from. Took a lot of patience, but, in this case, I guess all's well that ends well.

Cory Nagler [00:00:30]: My guest on today's show didn't know if he'd ever run again after dealing with a dual pulmonary embolism and blood clotting in his leg at the age of 21. But you wouldn't know it because since then, Jake Heslington has won a national cross country title with BYU and recently crushed the Olympic marathon trials, finishing 21st in a time of 2 15. He told me that he reached out because he wants his story to inspire others, and I'm so grateful that he did. Jake is super grounded and down to earth, despite being one of the fastest runners in the United States. He balances his running with nearly a 4 hour daily commute and caring for 3 young children. I couldn't believe it either, and made sure to ask how that's even possible during our conversation. Spoiler alert, it involved a lot of early wake ups and a little help from his family. I won't ramble too much, since you'll want to hear this from him, but some of the topics that we cover include how Jake overcame his life threatening health struggles to get back to elite running, how he balanced his career, family, and training, and how a mindset of gratitude has helped him to perform at a high level in the marathon, and how it can help you too.

Cory Nagler [00:01:35]: We finished off by talking about his future goals, and I have a feeling that you'll be rooting for him when you hear about his amazing story. That's about enough from me, so let's get into the interview with elite marathoner, Jake Heslington. Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Alright. I'm here with US Olympic marathon trail runner, Jake Heslington.

Cory Nagler [00:02:29]: Thanks for joining me on the show.

Guest [00:02:31]: Yeah. Thanks for having me. I'm excited.

Cory Nagler [00:02:34]: I'm excited too. I know before or, I guess, shortly after the Olympics trials, we had an interview with Fiona O'Keefe, which was a fantastic interview, by the way. But I think you're the first interview we've done with any marathoner on the men's side who ran at the Olympic trials, and a pretty successful run at that.

Guest [00:02:54]: Yeah. It was it was at least successful for me. I'll put it that way.

Cory Nagler [00:02:59]: I I think you're, being a little modest there. But, yeah. Why don't we hear a little bit about your story? And when I say that, I mean, more than just the trials. Like, you know, if somebody asked you, who is Jake? What would you tell them?

Guest [00:03:11]: Oh, man. First, I would say I'm, I'm a dad, a family guy. That's my top priority. I've got 3 kids, got a 5 year old girl, a 3 year old girl, and then a 7 month old boy that he was actually born 4 weeks after the trials. So, my wife was there at the trials, super huge and pregnant, trying to see me as much as she could on the course. So, yeah, that leads to a lot of stuff about me. A lot of what I put into training for running and everything revolves around that. A very busy schedule with work, trying to put as much time into them, being as involved of a dad as I can be, which then leads to workouts happening at 5 AM or earlier, and then doubles just during my lunch work break and everything like that.

Guest [00:04:10]: So, yeah, family guy first and then runner second, and then that's really all I have time for. I don't fit in too much more. It's it's running is my my hobby, my social outlet, everything like that.

Cory Nagler [00:04:27]: Yeah. I don't know how you could have much more time in the day. But so you go to the trials. You have your wife, your kids there supporting you. At their age, how much do you think they were able to absorb just how impressive it is finishing 21st at the Olympic trials?

Guest [00:04:42]: They know very they understand very little. They didn't go there. They stayed home with grandparents. They have most races that I run. Their only question is did you win? And, at this point in my life, I I don't win very many races. If it's just a local one here in Utah, sometimes I'll win. But even here, we have so much talent in Utah that I'm rarely winning races. And I think my oldest daughter is starting to catch on to that.

Guest [00:05:13]: I just did a the home BYU cross country meet a couple weeks ago, and, I finished 8 behind some of the BYU and other college guys. And I think she she finally got, like, oh, cool. You finished 8. That's good. It wasn't just a did you win. Oh, sorry. You didn't win sort of thing.

Cory Nagler [00:05:32]: So in the eyes of your kids, are you officially a fast runner now?

Guest [00:05:36]: Yeah. I think they they realize I'm fast. They realize I run a lot, but I don't think it really means much to them. They they also think they're really fast, which they are.

Cory Nagler [00:05:48]: Yeah. I remember that age when you get into running, it's all about who has the coolest shoes, right, that makes you the fastest?

Guest [00:05:53]: Yeah. My 3 year old has light up shoes and that and with butterfly wings on them, so those are pretty cool shoes.

Cory Nagler [00:05:59]: Oh, yeah. The light up wing or the light up shoes, those will make you fast.

Guest [00:06:03]: Yeah. For sure.

Cory Nagler [00:06:04]: Yeah. Also make you the the coolest kid on the playground. So I think, just to take a step back with the US trial, so you ran a phenomenal race there running 215. But even before that, just to qualify, I I believe if I have it right, you ran in your first ever marathon, a 217 at Indy Monumental. Is that right?

Guest [00:06:28]: It was 218 there. I ran a 217 at Grandma's the year after, like, 9 months later or something like that. So I really I've done 3 so far. Just the Indy, that was my first one, and the torrential downpour and, like, 25 mile per hour winds and everything. And the next year, I got injured right after Indy and had IT band syndrome for, like, 6 months. Finally got healthy. I think I got up to, like, full mileage, like, 8 weeks before grandma's marathon and just went into that hoping and praying that I could run I really needed, like, the perfect race to to make it there, and then I got it by 20 seconds. So not a super big margin at all at grandma's.

Guest [00:07:18]: I think right before well, not right before, but just a few weeks like, that that 8 weeks before grandma's. I can't remember the exact dates, but, there was one long run that I was like, okay. If I if I can make it through this long run, I'm keeping I'm gonna keep running. But if my TV ad flares up and I can't finish it today, I'm done. And it ended up being that because, like, earlier that week, it started feeling better significantly. Actually, no. It was kind of just one day it went away in the middle of a run. I actually start I was running home and or doing my run.

Guest [00:07:54]: I came in. I made my kids breakfast and then went out to finish my run. And then and after I stopped at home, I went back out and finished running. This is in the middle of the winter in Utah. It it just stopped hurting. It went away in the middle of the run, and I never never felt it again. And so that Saturday, I was like, well, I'm gonna go for it. We did, like, a 20 mile run, and I think I just made I just tried to progress the whole time from, like, a 6:30 down to, like, 5 flat and never felt anything.

Guest [00:08:26]: And that was the the day that I was like, okay. I'm I'm still doing grandma's. And if it didn't go that well that day, I probably would have just called it.

Cory Nagler [00:08:34]: Yeah. Wow. It it's not gonna show over the audio format of a podcast, but just hearing that story makes me smile so much, not just because it's impressive, but in part because I've gone through IT band syndrome myself. And the the progress is so nonlinear that I know just how exciting it is when you finally feel like you get over that hump.

Guest [00:08:51]: Yeah. It it's not linear at all. It was up and down that whole 6 months that I thought I was better. A month into it, I thought I was better. 3 months into it, and then yeah. Just just keeps on giving.

Cory Nagler [00:09:03]: And you've had a successful career at shorter distances too with BYU and now moved up to the marathon. Across all those races, is there one that stands out as your proudest accomplishment?

Guest [00:09:15]: Oh, no. But I can get some good ones. Individually, probably one of my favorite runs was a cross country meet, in college. It was the pre nationals meet, my senior year 2019. It was one that I went in just it was ambitious goals. It was kind of looking like it was gonna be a breakout season for me. And, I was a senior. This was it.

Guest [00:09:48]: This is my last chance at doing anything big. And so I was like, you know, maybe 10 or top 15 at at pre nationals. Maybe I could squeak out a top 10. And then I I just kinda hung in that position that I needed to be, and then people just started falling back and falling back. And then by the end, I find myself in 4th, and I end up finishing behind some guys that I never would have been and in front of some other guys that I never thought I would have beat. Just, like, I think I was 6 seconds behind my teammate, Carman, who is obviously a bigger big name. And that one just stands out as, like, one of the funnest, most surprising races to me, just because I surprised I I had the the goal and then, like, the stretch goal if everything goes perfect, and I even surpassed that one. And so that was really fun.

Guest [00:10:38]: But then, once again, it's hard to top the national championship, me, when when we won it as a team. It wasn't as great of a race individually for me, but, I mean, coming away with a national title is pretty amazing. So one of those 2 stands out a lot.

Cory Nagler [00:10:56]: This is the cross country national championships you're talking about? Yeah. Awesome. So clearly a very successful career that you had at the collegiate level. I know that you've gone through a lot, just in order to get to that level in university and and now in your build with the marathon. Can you tell me a little bit more about why it's so meaningful to be back performing at that level and and some of the, I guess, some of the struggles that you you've gone through to to perform at the level you do?

Guest [00:11:29]: Yeah. I mean, going back to college, I very early in my my college career, I I came back from a church mission in 2015. I was out of shape. I remember coming back running the first run that I'd run. Really, I mean, I ran, like, maybe 15 miles on my mission. Came back, tried to do a 4 mile run-in June. I was coming up from sea level in Guatemala up to up to Utah, and that 4 mile run just destroyed me. I fell so dead after that.

Guest [00:12:05]: And so fast forward, to now I had started school. I was at BYU. And by, like, December, I had finally gotten to a fitness close to, maybe where I was in high school by the end of my senior year. And then Christmas Eve 2015, I just started feeling some it was hard for me to breathe, and I really didn't know what was happening. We were doing a workout on Christmas Eve with some teammates, some mile repeats, And a couple reps in, I was just, oh, this doesn't feel very good. And I kept going, and then after 1, I was just like, I'm I'm done, guys. I I can't finish this. And most of them were surprised.

Guest [00:12:45]: I wasn't a guy that would really do that. I just I consider myself pretty gritty. And then yeah. So I just sat, watched him finish it. We go back home, and I was like, man, I like, have I just developed sports induced asthma? I really don't know much about that. We had Christmas and everything. I think I went sledding the next day, but still couldn't, just couldn't breathe very well. And then I was diagnosed with bronchitis and pneumonia, and then yeah.

Guest [00:13:19]: There's all sorts of things. And then, eventually, we found out that I had blood clots. So, yeah, one of my legs just, like it started swelling up like crazy and because there really wasn't any blood flow going out of it. It was just super swollen. So So you go to the ER, and they identify, yeah, if I have blood clots in my legs and then I don't know how all the medical stuff works, but there's so deep vein thrombosis is what it's called in my leg and then, dual pulmonary embolism on both of my lung cavities. Medical people are if they're listening are probably gonna cringe at how I'm describing this. But basically, my chest cavity, I think, was just filled up with fluid from the the clots, and that pressure within the chest cavity had caused my lungs to collapse as well. So, it it was pretty serious.

Guest [00:14:10]: I they at any moment, I could have died if the clot dislodged, went to my brain. I could have had a stroke. Yeah. I could have been dead at any minute. So I I was very lucky. They brought me into the hospital. They got me on blood thinners immediately. And then through all this process because it took, like, a month to figure out what was going on.

Guest [00:14:31]: I had lost £20. I if if anyone's a Star Wars fan, I feel like I looked like c three p o when Anakin is still making him. He was just super wobbly and not stable at all. So I was super weak and I was in the ICU for for about a week. And finally, once they got the the blood clots taken care of and I was safe and I could get out of bed and walk, I remember I stood up at bed, walked out of my hospital room, which is maybe, like, you know, 6 feet away from where I stood up. And then I walked, like, 15 feet down the hall with an oxygen tank up on my nose and everything. I think someone else was pulling my oxygen tank for me. At one point, it was like my 90 year old grandpa that was pulling the oxygen tank for me, which I thought was funny.

Guest [00:15:20]: Sat down in the chair, like, 15 feet away, caught my breath for a couple minutes, walked back, and that was my exercise for the day, like, literally a 40 foot walk. And that just totally wiped me out. So that that's kind of where, like, the the ultimate low of where I hit from the blood clots and then so coming back from that, my doctors were some were optimistic and some were, like, telling my parents when they were asking, like, is he gonna be able to run again? And they're like, ladies, like, we're trying to keep him alive right now. Don't, like, don't even bother about is he gonna run again? So that's that's kind of where that was a a big thing to come back from. Took a lot of patience, but, in this case, I guess, all is well that ends well.

Cory Nagler [00:16:07]: Yeah. At the time, what was your mindset going through that? If somebody had asked you if you thought that you would ever run again or, you know, compete competitively at the level you are, did did you still have belief? Or at that time, did you think that was totally out of the question?

Guest [00:16:24]: Yeah. A lot a lot of stuff went through my mind. There were, there were times where I kinda had to I I don't know. I just went through a lot of different scenarios in my mind. Like, okay. If I'm not able to run, how will life be? And that was kind of a tough thing to think about because, you know, for the all high school and junior high before, like and still running had been my social life, my entertainment. It kind of been most of my life, and I was like, what will it be like without running? And so I kinda I've learned to accept that if that were going to happen, which was a great learning experience. Like, looking back, I learned so much from this experience that it's not like, oh, man.

Guest [00:17:09]: If only that hadn't happened, I would be so much better off. I look at it as a huge learning experience for not just running, but life in general, to have a positive outlook on stuff. Because, yeah, I had to accept, like, okay, if something that I love is taken away from me, how will life still go on? And I was able to accept that and just realize that, you know, running isn't everything in life. That's not why I'm here on Earth. That's not my my greater purpose. And I had a ton of support from my family and stuff. And as they're coming into the hospital to visit visit me, I'm like, this is really, like, what totally matters, is the people that I meet, the relationships I develop. But at the same time, I was like, I still wanna run.

Guest [00:17:55]: I don't want I don't want this to be the end. And so when there there are multiple doctors giving opinions, and so when I heard the one that said, we're gonna have you running again, that's the one I chose to listen to. So I I had the backup plan of, like, what if this doesn't work out? But my plan a was one doctor thinks I can, so that's what I'm gonna grasp on to, and that's what I'm gonna gonna hope for. So, yeah, I I did have hope. I was optimistic. And all that was left at that point was just to start working and see how it would go. There's no way to know what was going to happen without putting in the work.

Cory Nagler [00:18:28]: Yeah. Jake, I just want you to know how much I appreciate you sharing that story. I know it can't be easy to relive, but I think it's something that's gonna really resonate with a lot of our listeners. And I think just incredible the way you've come back from a time when it it sounds like you had fully accepted the possibility of not being able to run to transitioning to such lofty goals, be it a national championship or running at the US Olympic trials.

Guest [00:18:51]: Yeah. Yes. It's fun to look back and think. Well, it just makes me feel really grateful that it did work out this way. I like you said, and then like I said, I'd accepted the the other alternative. But this is what I really wanted. I wanted it to work out, and it did. And I feel very blessed for that.

Cory Nagler [00:19:09]: And you said you had accepted that running is not your sole purpose. What do you see as that purpose, and kind of where does running maybe fit into that?

Guest [00:19:20]: Well, I'm very religious. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, and so that's where my whole purpose comes from. When I'm look or when I'm going through any sort of hard time, I look to Jesus and, him as my savior and, that my my greater purpose is to eventually go back and live with him. And so doing the things that he wants and being a disciple of Jesus Christ, that's where that's where my greater purpose is, which then has so many things. And and running fits into that because I've been able to meet a lot of different people from a lot of different backgrounds. Any time I travel, it's because of running. And so I love being able to go different places and just in small ways, share that with other people, share my love for Christ, through running. And so that's kind of what I see as my bigger purse purpose is just following Jesus and and helping my family to develop a love for him as well.

Cory Nagler [00:20:20]: I I'm curious. While you were training at BYU, is it true that they never train on Sundays?

Guest [00:20:28]: There as a general rule, that's true. There are exceptions. I mean, people that aren't members of the church can come, and they're they're free to do what they want as far as that goes. And but coach Ice Stone's training is centered around a a 6 day rotation. It's it's very simple, very predictable. Easy days, Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Hard workout days, Tuesday, Thursday, long run Saturday, day off Sunday. And that's just how he does it.

Guest [00:21:04]: So most people just do that by default. But, occasionally, some wanna do, like, you know, after a race on a Saturday, they wanna come home and did their long runs on step on Sunday and stuff like that. So as as a general rule, yeah, most people are on Sundays, but with exceptions.

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Cory Nagler [00:24:02]: Trust me. Your joints, Achilles, and your sore muscles will thank you, and so will your future self. And and what's your training like now? Like, do you still have a coach? Do you follow the same type of structure in terms of what days are hard or easy? What does that look like?

Guest [00:24:24]: Yeah. It's really similar. Right now, I'm coached by Isaac Wood. He's the now the coach of Salt Lake Community College, in Utah. He was the director of operations when I was at the BYU team. And so after college, I I asked he would be my coach, and he's coaching me. And so since he was a director of ops under coach Highstone, he has a very similar format, at least, the Tuesday, Thursday workouts, Saturday long run. We'll adjust as needed if I'm feeling super beat up.

Guest [00:24:53]: I'll just do one workout on a Wednesday or something. Or this week I was sick, so I didn't didn't do one. I put a workout into my long run today instead. Yeah. Really similar format, little bit different style of workouts and stuff, but it's it's mostly mostly the same, what I do now.

Cory Nagler [00:25:12]: And give us a little taste. What was that workout today?

Guest [00:25:16]: So I did I ended up getting, like, 19 miles and from miles well, starting at mile 10, I did a 2 by 5 k. So I did the first but the goal was to hit 25 k's at 15:30. I so I did one of, like, it was, like, 15:33, and then I took a mile to I I stopped for a minute and just ran mile as I normally would for my long run, and then mile later started into the second 5 k and did, like, 1525 or something like that.

Cory Nagler [00:25:53]: You're messing with my brain a little bit putting in these, like, repeats and k's in the middle of a 19 mile run.

Guest [00:26:01]: Yeah. It's not typical, but, yeah. That's what I did.

Cory Nagler [00:26:06]: Do do you think in miles or kilometers usually when you're running it? Or or if you wanna hit a pace, are you are you thinking of that in terms of kilometers or miles?

Guest [00:26:13]: Oh, yeah. I still do miles almost exclusively. If I'm, like, on a track doing k repeats or stuff, then I'll think in case. But if it's, like, during a long run, like, my watch is set to miles, and that's still what I go. So, like, I did a 3.1 mile repeat. And, yeah, my pace was showing in miles and everything like that.

Cory Nagler [00:26:39]: We we've got, like, 0 overlap because when I do my long runs, I'm thinking how many minutes is this taking me per kilometer. But the moment I'm on a track, I'm thinking seconds per lap, not not kilometer pace.

Guest [00:26:49]: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny how we just everyone does stuff a little bit different. And in the end, it's all the same. It's a certain time for a certain effort for a certain time, but it didn't throw everyone off.

Cory Nagler [00:27:03]: Yeah. We we've done talks about, like, running jargon, and I feel like the the different measurements within running just kinda falls into that same camp.

Guest [00:27:11]: Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:27:13]: So at the end of the day with the marathon stuff, I'm I'm assuming that you're enjoying it, given that you've had some success and still seem to be, pursuing that. So what made you want to take that leap from the shorter cross country track races up to the marathon distance?

Guest [00:27:32]: Really, it was the mostly the opportunity, the situation that I was put in, because I graduated in 2020, when the pandemic hit. So, like, I was at the the NCAA Indoor Championships ready to race the next day when they canceled it and then canceled the season. They gave us the option to go back for another year, but I had already had our we had already had our first kid during my senior year. And just we were hoping and planning to have 1 the next year, and I was like, I don't wanna be going to school just for the sake of going to school so that I can run another year in the NCAA. So I for forwent. I don't know if that's even the proper way to say that. I decided not to use my additional year that they gave due to the pandemic. But it just left me feeling like that was it.

Guest [00:28:26]: Like, my my last collegiate race was 2 weeks ago when I didn't even know that it was my last collegiate race. So I was just like, I need to do something big. And there's a time of limbo where I'd also lost my job offer out of college. So I thought I had a really cool job set up, and just because of the pandemic, they couldn't hire anymore. So I was unemployed for a while, lived with my parents for a while, finally took a job in I graduated in engineering, took a job in tech support just to get my family by. And then finally, like, a year and a half after graduating, finally found a job in engineering. And during that time of limbo where like, my training wasn't super great during that time. I was doing enough to get by.

Guest [00:29:15]: I tried to do whatever races were out there, but that wasn't very many. And just because I think of the unknown, I just wasn't having super quality training. But then the guys around here in Utah, like, started talking about the Olympic trials and the marathon. That's what, like, Clayton Young and Connor Matts, who I do a lot of long runs with, that's what they were going for. And I was like, okay. That's what I'll do. My plan was to just qualify in a half marathon, which in hindsight would have been so much harder just because of the standards that they put up. And then, yeah.

Guest [00:29:51]: So that's where that that goal came from. It was just I need something to feel like I am finishing off my running career, not with a a a big, a big downer, with the pandemic. So I was just like, I I need to do something big. That's what I set my goal for.

Cory Nagler [00:30:11]: And when you set that goal, what what was intended as the qualifier? Was it India or was it grandma's?

Guest [00:30:19]: Originally, it was grandma's the previous year in the well, I kind of went into it a little bit naive. I didn't realize that the half window to qualify through the half opened up the next year. So I signed up for grandma's half, and then went into it realizing, oh, it doesn't even count even if I do run sub 63. So then after that, yeah, my size became the Indianapolis marathon and, fell a little bit short there. And so then just went for to grandma's the next year.

Cory Nagler [00:30:50]: And got it. That's incredible. Yeah. And have you run a sub sixty three half marathon? Like, do you think you would have hit the standard if you had done a half instead of a full?

Guest [00:31:05]: I think it's possible. So I ran the the half at grandma's again this year and ran 6311. So sub 63 is in in the wheelhouse. That day was a little bit rainy towards the end. So yeah. I I think I could have, but the marathon was definitely the in in the fitness that I was when I when I qualified, the marathon was definitely easier than qualifying in a half.

Cory Nagler [00:31:31]: Yeah. If you're 11 seconds off, it's definitely there. And I'll say, even in the marathon, you ran 2:15 at the trials. But from what I recall, that was a pretty hot humid day.

Guest [00:31:41]: It it was. I it wasn't hot enough that I was like, wow, I'm burning up, when people are like, yeah, it was getting hot out there even as a spectator. I was like, yeah, you're right. Like, every time I had my water bottles that they let us put out on the course and everything. But But I remember they had sponges and they had extra bottles. And every chance I had, I was taking a sponge, splashing it over my head, grabbing another bottle and just drinking as much as I could. So, yeah, it was it got pretty warm, pretty humid despite it starting relatively relatively cool. So, yeah, I think I had a little bit more time to cut off if it were if it were ideal conditions, but 215 is still pretty good.

Cory Nagler [00:32:25]: Any self talk going through your head as you're running that marathon? Like, is is you're getting deep into it and hurting? You probably had a sense you were doing well, but what were you telling yourself?

Guest [00:32:37]: Oh, man. Yeah. That's that's one of the big things with marathons. What what does your mind do for 2 hours or 3 hours or however long it is? And luckily for me, I had one of my former teammates, Connor Weaver, who we ran together for, probably at least around 17 miles of it. And so that was helpful to just, I don't know, not even really think. Just zone out and run next to him. And if he put a little bit of space on me, just close that. I put a little bit of space on him a couple times, and I would imagine that he was just like, let's get back up to Jake.

Guest [00:33:19]: And then eventually, he pulled away. And that's when it really got hard when the guy that I was running with is no longer with me. Fortunately, because of the heat, a lot of people went out a little bit more aggressive, And I think the whole race, I got passed by 1 person. I started off more conservative and I just passed the whole time. And so those last 8 miles, even if I was slowing down, I was still passing people. And And so that was kind of where my mind went. It's just, like, looking at the person that's immediately ahead of me and try to close that gap. Look at them every couple seconds and try to figure out, am I getting closer to them or am I not? Which set up for a very long last 8 miles, it was pretty miserable.

Guest [00:34:10]: But then with I have a lot of family out there. So I'm the youngest of 7. I have 6 older sisters. So people have said it's pretty accurate. I have 7 moms. And almost all of them were out there at the race. And they position themselves in a spot where as as you come around, I it's probably with, like, a half mile to go. There, you turn right.

Guest [00:34:34]: And before you turn right, they were just straight ahead of me, on that right hand turn. And they are loud, and they were they got the people around them to be chanting my name. And so I knew as I was running down this long straightaway that in a couple miles, I'm gonna see my sisters, and they're gonna be yelling like crazy at me. So that was another thing just to think of. And then along along the course, I just had other family members that I didn't really know where they would be positioned themselves, but a couple brother in laws that would just pop into the crowd every once in a while and yell my name. And that's always helpful to just have someone there cheering, and getting me through that.

Cory Nagler [00:35:13]: Was this a looped course where you saw them multiple times, or did you just go by once either positioned in the middle or or in the case of your sisters near the end?

Guest [00:35:23]: Yeah. It was there was one loop that was, like, 3 ish, maybe 2 2 or 3 miles and then 3 bigger loops that were all 8. So I was able to see them. They jump back and forth between sides of this loop. So I I saw them, like, 5 or 6 times.

Cory Nagler [00:35:40]: Cool. Sounds mentally draining to run, but I guess it's, very spectator friendly at that point.

Guest [00:35:46]: Yeah. It was spectator friendly. And and there were a lot of people there. Orlando did a great job getting people out there. It was I was expecting a lot of dead zones, and there was really never a dead zone of the course, which was really fun.

Cory Nagler [00:36:00]: Oh, that's awesome. I love that. And then so you finally crossed the line 215. At that point, what's then going through your head?

Guest [00:36:08]: I think one of my first thought well, I mean, a lot of just, like, I'm so glad to be done. That was miserable. But then, like, okay. I picked off a lot of people. What place did I finish? So I was trying to figure out where I finished. I was wondering where, my former teammates I mean, there were 3 of my former BYU teammates that at least 3. Sorry if I'm forgetting someone and they're listening. But at least 3 that were in front of me, so I wanted to know what where they happened.

Guest [00:36:38]: We went in knowing, like, Connor and Clayton were, really good picks for the team, and so I finished and wanted to know, like, are they going to the Olympics? I wanted to know where Connor finished. I wanted to know what place mine was. So just a lot of, like, wondering, I know my time, but how was my place?

Cory Nagler [00:37:00]: And were you pleased with 21st, or did you think you were higher, lower? What what was the reaction when you saw the placement?

Guest [00:37:07]: I think I remember being a little bit surprised that it was that high. But as far as, like, goals going into it, I wanted to be top 25. I thought that would a top 25 day would mean a solid day and then, like, top 20 would be like, wow, that was a fantastic day. And so it was, like, a tiny bit bitter because now I can't say I was top 20. I have to say I was top 25. That doesn't really matter. But, but overall, yeah, I was I was really excited, which is that little bit of, like, oh, man. Could I pass 1 more people to 1 more person to be top 20? But, I mean, in the end, that doesn't doesn't really matter.

Cory Nagler [00:37:47]: Yeah. And do you think all the struggles that you've gone through in order to get back to the fitness you're at now, does that make you mentally tougher during the run?

Guest [00:37:58]: Yeah. One of the things that I often do, like, I I hate leaving my family to go race. It was really nice having my wife there for that race, but just knowing that my kids were there. And so one of my mantras going into a lot of races is something around, like, don't waste this opportunity that I have. Because if I'm spending the money and spending the time away from them to go race, like, I better make the best out of it. And so that's something that will also get me through top, through tough situations. It's just like, make the most out of this or don't waste this or something. And one of my at the grandma's half, that was my that was my mantra.

Guest [00:38:41]: It's just don't waste this, and that that made me push a little bit harder when it was getting really tough. And I can't remember exactly what it was at the trials, but thoughts like that definitely keep me going. I've I've sacrificed so much to be here. My family sacrificed so much to be here. For me to be here, make the most of of everything. And, yeah, through the marathon, that that can be really helpful because it is it it's tough to wanna finish at that point.

Cory Nagler [00:39:08]: Oh, you certainly made the most of it. Having had so much success at the marathon trials, what are you turning your attention to next? Are you already looking towards LA 2028, or do you have some intermediary goals?

Guest [00:39:20]: Yeah. Definitely some intermediary girl goals. I mean, I have 3 kids. Right now, I'm managing it, but I know that I can't keep doing this for forever. I want to eventually move on and give more time to my family and more, just be more involved in, in a lot of other things. I have other other things that I'm interested in that I wanna put time to. And so this year after the trials, what I'm doing is I've I've I have a couple bucket list items that I need I know that I need to finish before I'm done running. One is break 4 in a mile.

Guest [00:39:54]: So that's actually my next big race is to go to the one of the early winter track meets, try to break 4. So I'm kind of doing, like, hybrid marathon mile training right now, which is kinda weird, but it's fun. And then I feel like the the big questions that you get asked in running is, like, what's your mile time and have you run Boston? So after trying to break 4 in the mile, I'm gonna go to and and run Boston marathon.

Cory Nagler [00:40:24]: Are you running it next year in 2025?

Guest [00:40:28]: Yeah. Because I haven't heard back from them, but that's what I assume I'll get in.

Cory Nagler [00:40:33]: I can't remember exactly what the cutoff was for Boston, but I'm going to assume a 215 pretty safely gets you in.

Guest [00:40:40]: Yeah. I hope so.

Cory Nagler [00:40:42]: What what what are their standards for the elite field? Is there a specific time, or is it just kind of at their discretion?

Guest [00:40:48]: Yeah. That I don't know totally how it works. That's what I applied for is the elite field. And they said that you have to. So if you run 213, you're automatically in the elite pro field. If you're under 218, you qualify for the think they call it the pro development field, which is what I would be in, but it's not a guaranteed thing. So once again, I would assume that being 3 minutes under that cutoff and only 2 minutes slower than the than the elite elite, cutoff that I would make it. But I I just haven't heard back yet, so I don't I'm not sure.

Cory Nagler [00:41:29]: Well, fingers crossed for you. I, I had the chance to run my 1st Boston in April, obviously, not in the elite field, but it's a phenomenal race. So hope you get the opportunity to

Guest [00:41:37]: do that. Up to that.

Cory Nagler [00:41:38]: Oh, it does. Absolutely. Yeah. It it it just feels like a different level of marathon, if that makes sense. I don't know how else to describe it.

Guest [00:41:47]: Yeah. Cool. I'm I'm really looking forward to it.

Cory Nagler [00:41:51]: Yeah. Awesome. So you had kind of alluded to your profession before in terms of having graduated with an engineering degree, doing a bit of tech calls as an intermediary while you were still looking for work. I'd love to know a little bit more about what that day to day looks like balancing your running with your work. Do you have a lot of flexibility? And and what is it that you actually do? I guess we we didn't get a chance to talk about your job title.

Guest [00:42:20]: Yeah. That's, I mean, that's a huge part of my life and fitting everything in. So I and it's recently changed luckily. I just like I said, because of the pandemic, jobs were scarce. I ended up getting a job. I live down in Provo. I got a job up in South Jordan, which is, like, in the morning traffic, it was like a 40 minute drive. And then on the way home, it was like an hour 5, hour 10, somewhere in there.

Guest [00:42:49]: So I was in the car almost 2 hours a day, which was 2 hours a day that I could have been doing anything else. And recently, within the last, like, 4 months, I got a new job down within, like, 20 minutes of me, which really opens things up. I'm putting more time into my family and everything, which is great. But day to day previously, like, when I was building up to the trials was, if it was warm enough, my, training partner, Michael Ottoson, And I he I was able to I won't take the credit. He got a job at the same place that that I was working. So I had a training partner. I had a carpool buddy up to work. We would meet as early as, like, 4:30 AM in the pitch black to do our workouts.

Guest [00:43:41]: I would come home, take care of the kids, let my wife work out because she she does a lot of working out as well. She's not a rut or anything, but it's for health and everything. And then I would leave work leave for work by, like, 650, get up to work around 7:30. And then, yeah, our jobs both jobs that I've had have been really flexible with letting us take long lunches, and we would go. If it was a cooler day, though, that's when we would do our workouts out on a trail. And so, yeah, we could go lift during lunch. We could go do longer runs. If we were lifting, it would be a a shorter run, but they reflect really flexible with us to let us do that.

Guest [00:44:31]: But, yes, it was run, work, run, work, drive home. I wouldn't get home with the traffic until, like, 6, sometimes 6:30. My kids go to bed at around 7. So that that was a huge grind. Like, that was, honestly, harder than coming back from the blood clots. It was just living that day in, day out nonstop, sort of like, like, when people would ask, like, you know, what what time do you wake up? And sometimes I'd be like, you know, 4:37, not 4:30 because I think I can get everything done in 7 minutes less. I think, like, I was living minute by minute at that time, trying to streamline everything and trying to get everything in, which it was mentally exhausting, physically exhausting. And now not having the the 2 hours in the car, it opens up, like, an hour and a half, and it's a lot less stressful.

Guest [00:45:26]: But still, I'm getting up at 5 to do workouts and running at lunch and and everything. I just get home a little bit earlier.

Cory Nagler [00:45:33]: Yeah. Are there any sacrifices you feel like you've had to make for running beyond just the the piece of waking up early and obviously putting in the very grueling training?

Guest [00:45:42]: Yeah. They are and some of them are related to running as well. Like, I and it's it's a hard balance balancing. One of the first things that I sacrifice is sleep, which isn't what you wanna sacrifice as a runner. You want as much sleep as you can. So I have to balance, like, okay. Do I go to, like, wake up 20 minutes earlier, get less sleep to put in a couple more miles sort of thing? And that that's been a struggle. And then biggest thing I sacrifice is just, like, anything extra.

Guest [00:46:13]: I don't like, I love fishing. I love golfing. I love just any outdoor activities, and I really don't do any of that. Occasionally, my wife and I will sit down and watch something on TV. But, like, I don't really watch anything. Just so, like yeah. Just I've I've had to sacrifice all of the the other things that I like to do. I like to be lazy every once in a while, and I have to fit in some lazy time occasionally.

Guest [00:46:44]: But that's the biggest thing I've sacrificed is just other things that I like to do. And, of course, my family has sacrificed a lot because they like to be with me, and and they don't get to see me quite as much as they would like to. But I I think we found a good balance, which is good.

Cory Nagler [00:47:02]: Yeah. That's exactly where I was gonna go next, Jake, is some of the sacrifices that maybe your family has made, especially the way you described it, using your lunch break for runs, getting back at 6, 6:30, and having the kids down by 7. Like, I have to imagine that you have some good support networks, behind your training.

Guest [00:47:20]: Yeah. My wife is amazing. And every very regularly, we just take some time to be like, hey. Is this is this still doable for both of us? Are we is there anything that we need to adjust to make it work? Are I asked my wife, are you getting what you need? And then same thing, like, am I getting what I need? And, and we figure without going into how we've decided all that, we've made it work pretty well for us, and both of us are feel really good with where we're at right now. Once again, not something that we can probably continue for another 10 years. But for now, we we both feel good about where we're at.

Cory Nagler [00:47:58]: And in terms of those bucket list items you wanna check out before you stop the pursuit of competitive or elite marathoning? You mentioned the sub four minute mile. You mentioned running Boston. Is there anything else on that list?

Guest [00:48:13]: Not for now. Those are the when I came up with those, I felt good that I yeah. I could walk away from running. Because before, I really wasn't. Like, when I when my wife and I talked about when I was gonna be done with running, I just couldn't feel at peace with being done. And then when I came up with those things, I was like, yeah. I think I can be. So for now, it's just the mile and the marathon.

Cory Nagler [00:48:37]: And assuming all goes well with the elite field in Boston, any specific goals there?

Guest [00:48:43]: I want a PD. The weather at Boston can be crazy. So, you know, I mean, you know, maybe it's 20 mile an hour tailwind and I run 2:10. I don't know. But I haven't really started thinking about goals there yet because I'm focused on the mile. But, I mean, I I have some thoughts and, yeah, like, I'm thinking, like, maybe a top 25, top 20 there. I really don't know at this point how reasonable that is. Normally, I look at the top 10 results, and that's about as far as I go.

Guest [00:49:18]: And but as far as time, assuming good conditions, I'd like to run a PB somewhere around 212, 213, something like that. That's kind of where I feel like I'm I'm capable of. And, like, maybe that's what I would have run out of the trials had it been a little cooler. So that's those are some tentative goals that I have.

Cory Nagler [00:49:38]: And you think 212, 213 on a flat perfect day, or is this at Boston, you think, on a heli course, you've got the fitness?

Guest [00:49:49]: Not sure right now. I, honestly, I don't know a ton about possum other than its reputation. I've watched it. I know it's not the easiest course, but I know sometimes it's super fast because of the tailwind. I know sometimes it's super slow because of because of all sorts of stuff. But I know sometimes it averages out to where people are running pretty normal times there. And so if those if those stars align, then, yeah, that's kind of what I would shoot for.

Cory Nagler [00:50:19]: I hear you. And all sorts of stuff is probably the right way to put it because it's like 1 1 year, you've got torrential rains, another year, heat, another year, rain or, wind, rather. It kinda seems to go around in a Ferris wheel of weird weather patterns.

Guest [00:50:34]: Yep.

Cory Nagler [00:50:35]: Okay. Well, to kinda wrap up the show, because I think a lot of people are gonna be both inspired and impressed by the story you've shared. If anybody else is listening to this, really into running and going through challenges of their own, whether that's related to health, life, work, whatever else, do you have any words of advice for them?

Guest [00:50:58]: I think one of the things is just finding balance. If I mean, there's we could do a full hour talk on just finding balance and why it's good and how to find balance. But, yeah, just recognizing the things that you can cut out, that maybe, you know, good things to do, but they're not super high priority and determining if you're willing to cut those things out. And if you're not willing to cut those things out, then just knowing that that might require sacrificing on some other thing. And just so just, yeah, being, finding that balance and developing those skills to find the balance would be, I think, my my words of advice for for doing all that.

Cory Nagler [00:51:48]: And any advice for finding that balance, or is it really just a trial and error?

Guest [00:51:58]: It's a good question. Gonna think for a second on that one because I don't wanna don't wanna give an important answer without some good thought.

Cory Nagler [00:52:08]: It's a difficult question and it's it's something I ask you about because I know I struggle with it and I'd imagine a lot of other people do too.

Guest [00:52:16]: Yeah. I think one of it is yeah. I think there's something I kind of touched on, but establishing priorities. Like I mentioned, like I'm very religious. My family is top priority. And so I am there's a certain level that I'm just not going to go past. I'm not going to do things that are going to make me get home at 7 o'clock regularly. And so if I I focus on those top priorities first, then I have to find and figure out how all then I can go to the next priorities, essentially, and figure out how to best maximize those priorities.

Guest [00:52:53]: And then once those are met the best that I can within those parameters, then I can go to the next level of priorities. And then and then once I'm full, I'm full. And by that point, you've already got your top priorities. And so those then you've realized you recognize the things that you're you're gonna have to cut out to make your top priorities actually happen.

Cory Nagler [00:53:19]: Yeah. Yeah. And is it fair to say that right now, running is one of those top priorities, but that at a certain point, once you check off those bucket list items, it'll change?

Guest [00:53:28]: Yeah. That's a very true statement.

Cory Nagler [00:53:30]: Yeah. Awesome. Well, Jake, this was fantastic. I really appreciate you coming, sharing your story, giving what's great advice, I think, not just for our listeners, but for myself included, especially finding that balance between running and life. So thanks again for joining me on the show.

Guest [00:53:47]: Yeah. Thank you for having me. This is fun fun to talk about these things.

Cory Nagler [00:53:51]: Absolutely. And best of luck with all your training, the sub four minute mile, Boston, and everything to come after that.

Guest [00:53:57]: Thank you.

Cory Nagler [00:54:12]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at corey_nagler. Worth your Strava by searching Corey Nagler, and please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast. Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, and consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netforward/podcast. I'll see you on the next show, but until then, happy running, everyone.