Top lessons learned from running an ultramarathon

Coach Hayley [00:00:00]: I just could not understand why I couldn't reach those times anymore, but I think finding this new kind of sport has allowed me to kind of leave that behind and think, okay, actually, when I'm doing this sport, I do feel like myself again, and I do feel like I could improve again.

Cory Nagler [00:00:17]: You just heard a clip from coach Haley describing how after years of competitive marathon training, she refound her joy for the sport through trail running. Haley ran her first ever ultra marathon in January by completing a 50 k trail race. In fact, she actually ran closer to 50 3 k after taking a wrong turn, which you'll hear more about soon. We originally intended to chat about lessons from that one race, but during the interview, I actually learned she's since moved to a more remote location near to Trails and completed another endurance trail event while signing up for 2 a 100 k races later in the year. You'll hear more about this complete 180 from marathoner to trail runner, including her top lessons for new or experienced trail runners. I know a lot of our audience, including myself, consider themselves roadrunners, but I think many of the same lessons apply. We also get into the differences in personality between road versus trail runners. If you've been around both groups, you probably know exactly what I mean.

Cory Nagler [00:01:17]: I know I fit the typical type a marathon personality, and Hailey used to share these tendencies, so we had good fun talking about her mindset shift. Completing a 50 k is no small feat. And during the show, you'll hear topics including how Haley accidentally ran an extra 2 miles during the race, why it's so important to plan ahead when preparing for an ultra marathon, how it changed towards trail running helped Haley refined her love for the sport, and so many more great lessons you can learn from the trails. This one's gonna be all about ultra marathons. But unless you're already running one, I know you have limited time. So let's get into it. Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler.

Cory Nagler [00:02:11]: And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Alright. I'm here with coach Haley fairly fresh off of her first 50 k ultra. Haley, how are you doing?

Coach Hayley [00:02:38]: Yeah. I'm good. Thank you. It was it was quite a few weeks ago, so I've at least recovered from from that and not still, like, really sore or anything.

Cory Nagler [00:02:48]: Yeah. No. It sounds like it's been a few weeks, but you kind of threw at me that since that time, you've actually done another super long trail race. Do you wanna tell us about that?

Coach Hayley [00:02:59]: Yeah. I have. So I've done, like, in the in the same series of races, they the, the race company that put on that ultra have, like, other races, and I did a trial marathon at one of their events in, another very hilly part of the UK, and that was kind of 3, 4 weeks ago, I think. I I kind of I kinda just wanted to, like, officially finish a race because because of going the wrong way, and the old try never got to officially finish. And it see it feels like a bit of a curse for me because it's been it's been a really long time since I'd officially finished a race just because things seem to keep seem to have kept happening, for quite a while now, really. And I just with with the next race I've ended in May, which is a 100 k, which is way farther than I've ever run before. I didn't want that to be the race to break the curse. I felt that wasn't really a great way to go into it.

Coach Hayley [00:03:55]: So I just, I I kind of felt like I recovered from the ultra quite well. So I just I I did one of their other races and actually finished the race finally and kinda broke this curse that I seem to have had over me for the last, like, 2 to 3 years. So, that was really good.

Cory Nagler [00:04:15]: Yeah. Congrats. I think finishing ultras, in any capacity, let alone your first, is definitely a huge accomplishment. We're here today to kinda poke into that a little bit more, and here's some of the lessons you learned or that our listeners can take away. So let's take a step back and go to the the 50 k, which was actually your your first ultra. So we're now here recording in April. When was it that you ran the race? What race was it? And let's maybe go over for our viewers right off the bat. What are some of those biggest lessons that you learned?

Coach Hayley [00:04:45]: Okay. So, the race was actually back in, at the end of January, so I have had quite a long time to recover. It was a race that's part of a series of races in the UK, a company called Endurance Life that just try to put on races in, like, really beautiful areas. Beautiful in this case also meaning, like, really, really tough and hilly, and you may be running up, like, several 100 steps or something. But, they're still really, really beautiful races, and they always do, like, 10 k, a half, a marathon, and an ultra. So I thought this was a good one to have as my first ultra. It was like, for anyone who knows the UK, it was on, like, the southwest coast path where a lot of it, which is really, really tough with, tough for the UK anyway, with a lot of climbing. So it was also kind of the first hilly well, trail hilly race I did, so a lot of firsts.

Coach Hayley [00:05:48]: Yeah. So, unfortunately, I did not officially finish. Although I did I count it because I still ran my first 50 k or 50 probably by the time I finished about 55 k because I went the wrong way and therefore did not follow the official route, which means I can't officially finish. But, I was still really proud for completing my first ultra. So I'm gonna count it as my as my first ultra. And yeah. So so it was a really a really great experience because I never really run over the marathon distance before. And I I learned so much about running ultras, which he just can't get from training for them.

Coach Hayley [00:06:36]: But, yeah, hopefully, a lot of stuff to build on for my next one because I really enjoyed it, and I I plan to keep doing trail ultras, for well, hopefully, for the at least the rest of the year, and maybe it'll be kind of a permanent switch. So

Cory Nagler [00:06:53]: Yeah. I'm I'm definitely giving it to you. I think if you run over distance, you definitely get credit for completing the 50 k. So you you alluded to you've learned quite a bit from that race. We'll we'll dive into each of these a little bit more throughout the show, but what what were some of those key lessons?

Coach Hayley [00:07:10]: So given what happened, navigation is probably my main one. Just like, I I did not expect to be leading is my excuse, although it's a terrible excuse and I need to do better, but I did I thought it's my first one. I've never really done a trail race before, let alone an ultra race, having always been kind of a road marathoner. So I thought I'm not gonna be leading this race. There's gonna be loads of people to follow. I'm not gonna I'm gonna kind of basically, as they were reading out the important instructions on the start line, I was kind of chatting away to the person next to me. So that was kind of my first error, thinking that having come from a road background as well, I kind of thought when it said on the, like, race advert, fully marked, no need for navigation, I thought, okay, that's fine. They're obviously telling the truth.

Coach Hayley [00:07:58]: Turns out things are kind of different when you do trail races. And it was not quite as straightforward as that. But that but I can go into that more later, but that that was kind of the main thing I learned is just pay more attention to the course. Don't expect to have people to follow. And if it says, well marked and no need for navigation, just never believe them. So, yeah, that was probably the biggest make mistake because that, cost me the kind of official finish and the official finisher's medal and all that stuff. So, yeah, pay more attention to the instructions and the markers. And then, yeah, like, my nutrition actually went pretty well, because I was worried about that, it being kind of my first, ultra.

Coach Hayley [00:08:45]: But I did practice that in training, and I I kinda learned that actually taking on a lot of nutrition does help. Something I was always really bad at when I did road marathons, and could definitely have have, done better there when I was doing road marathons. But I was assumed I was someone with kind of a sensitive stomach. But, through the kind of ultra training, I've been able to train myself to take on more. And I definitely, felt that that kept me feeling good throughout the race, and I didn't really have any GI issues. So I learned I can I can take on more fuel than I think? I I learned a lot about kind of testing hip, especially footwear beforehand. I did end up with quite a nasty blister for most of the race. Thankfully, I kinda made it through.

Coach Hayley [00:09:30]: But if I if I, had had to go even further, I probably would have run into a lot more issues with that. And I think just learned a lot more about, getting the right footwear. And I've since, done a bit of experimenting with footwear and different things to prevent blisters. So that's something I hope that I've kind of improved for the 100 k because 100 k with that kind of blister pain doesn't really sound fun. So fingers crossed. And then I guess the other thing that I thought could have gone better was hydration. Again, this is just me not understanding how trail ultras just kind of work a bit different to road races. And the I I just thought I'll bring kind of some in in my running pack, but then top up my bottles at the kinda aid stations along the way.

Coach Hayley [00:10:23]: Unfortunately for me, these weren't kind of where they where they stated they would be. So I ended up running for some time thinking, really need some water now. When is this next aid station coming? And of course, once I went off off course, I didn't really get to see any aid stations anymore. So I was kinda quite thirsty by the time I finished. So, yeah, I think just pay more attention to how I'm gonna hydrate as well as just thinking about fuel. I actually, and this is shameful to admit, never used to really drink anything at all in a marathon. When I was running kind of my best marathons, there wasn't so much said about things like nutrition and hydration, I think. And I hadn't learned so much myself about nutrition and and sports nutrition then.

Coach Hayley [00:11:12]: And I drank a shockingly low amount in the marathon, and it's can't really get away with the same sort of thing in an ultra. And yeah. So I'm kind of planning my, hydration strategy a bit, better for the next one because I'm I'm thinking that for a 100 k, being dehydrated isn't really a good idea either. So, yeah, learning all the time. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:11:37]: I've been dehydrated in a marathon, and it's not pretty. So I can imagine as you extend that distance a little bit longer, be it a 50 k or 100 k, probably not so much fun.

Coach Hayley [00:11:47]: Yeah. Definitely. I don't know how I used to get away with it in math, and I think I'd I mean, I'd seem to run pretty well with taking on just, like, a few sets. And, yeah, it tells that I can't carry that on for an ultra.

Cory Nagler [00:12:01]: Yeah. And I know I I've done exactly one ultra before, and I was very taken aback by just how much more important that, that hydration piece becomes as you take on more fuel. And also I I find that ultras are a little bit more common in the summer months when it's really hot compared to marathons, which tend to be in the spring or fall.

Coach Hayley [00:12:19]: Yeah, definitely. And if I'm, you know, the I I've actually entered 2, coming up. So, you you know, I've got a bit too enthusiastic too soon, I think, but both of them have the potential for being a bit warm. Whereas the one I did in January was kind of traditional British January weather and was a bit kinda cold and windy. So, I got away with it, but I don't think I can get away with it for a longer distance and less wintery weather.

Cory Nagler [00:12:45]: Yeah. So you've clearly caught the ultra bug. I so we we came here today to talk about this 50 k. This was news to me just before we chatted that you had entered into a marathon distance ultra, but you you say there's 2 on the horizon. So one is the 100 k, presumably. What's the other race you have entered into?

Coach Hayley [00:13:03]: Yeah. So it's just another 100 k, but, like, later in the year, I think I just got a bit, like, overexcited about about answering things. And I know I know that the one in October sells out pretty quick, so I just wanted to kinda enter it ahead of time. So, it's one that I I someone I knew did last year, and I thought, oh, that looks really nice, again in France. So I just entered that one just kind of, you know, if I if I do this one in May, and I think, wow, I don't wanna ever wanna run that far again. And, maybe I won't do it, but I've got 2 2 entered at the moment.

Cory Nagler [00:13:42]: I love that answer. Just a 100 k sounds sounds sounds pretty casual when you say it like that. But, okay. Let's let's go into deeper some of those lessons you talked about. I think one of the really big ones you talked about is just really planning ahead, whether that's knowing the course or your hydration strategy. So I wanna kinda get into first the the story you were talking about in terms of running a little bit extra at this course. Can you talk a little bit about how it played out and and what ended up happening that led to you running more than the initial distance?

Coach Hayley [00:14:14]: Yeah. So it's quite embarrassing, really. No one of my family has really let me forget it yet. Especially not not my husband who did the event with me. He just finds it quite funny. And every time we go on a run together, he's like, oh, no. You're going the wrong way. No way.

Coach Hayley [00:14:29]: Don't let don't let Haley lead the way. So, yeah, it's it was really embarrassing, and, I probably there was a lot more I could have done myself to to prevent the situation. Basically, it was just a case of, the the this kind of race has multiple distances. So you can do a 10 k. You can do a half. You can do a marathon, and you can do the Octa. And to allow people to do that, it's kinda set around like a series of loops, and you you just follow the markers. I actually did alright following the markers.

Coach Hayley [00:15:01]: It was just that I was following the wrong markers later on, because I just kept following the ones that said ultra marathon is. But what I had missed in the kind of instructions at the start when I was kinda chatting to the person next to me, which is just classic me. It's kind of what I do on a start line of a race because I get nervous, so I just start chatting to everyone around me, which they probably hate. The man apparently said something about ultra marathon runners. When you get to kinda mile, like, 28 or something, you need to stop following the ultra marathon signs because they'll take you back out onto the ultra marathon loop and follow the signs that say 10 k because they will take you to the finish. Having not heard this, I just thought, oh, ultra marathon, keep going. And then like, as I was running back around the loop that I'd already done, which didn't really register to me at the time, I did, well, I did actually start to think everything does look a little familiar. I feel like I've done this before.

Coach Hayley [00:15:59]: So, yeah, I was just kinda going back around the ultra course again, trying to do some extra extra kilometers, obviously.

Cory Nagler [00:16:08]: I wouldn't beat yourself up too much. I think we've all made that mistake of, of making wrong turns or or silly mistakes, especially, you know, when you're fatigued for it. So for other runners, whether they're ultra vets or running their first, what do you think they can do to prep and make sure that they're not making that kind of mistake?

Coach Hayley [00:16:33]: Yeah. So so my husband who was ahead of me, but too far ahead of me to be helpful in this navigational, assistance, he had kind of looked at the course before and thought, oh, you know, I can see on the map that about, like, 28 miles is gonna be this two way kind of split, and I'm gonna be going that way. I think I did kind of briefly look at that before, but yeah. Like, because I hadn't because like you say, when you're kind of a bit delirious, when you've been like, I've been running for kind of, like, 4 and a half hours plus at this point. And, like I I alluded to earlier, my hydration hadn't really been great either. So I think my mind was just a bit, like, fuzzy. And I guess what what my husband who did it successfully had done was think to himself beforehand, oh, I think my mind's gonna be a bit fuzzy at this point. Maybe I need to, like, take special care to remember this.

Coach Hayley [00:17:28]: Like, so, yeah, like a case of really studying the course beforehand and, like, anticipating those kind of points where things might go, you know, you might have to take a different turn or you might have to follow some different markers. And if you think you're not gonna kinda remember that later on, just, like, write yourself, like, a note on your hand or set, like, an alarm on your watch or something. Just expect to not be thinking very straight later on, I guess, and study the course more before and and think where where could I where could this go wrong? I guess, in the 100 k, I'm unlikely to face the same problem because there's not loops. You know? It's just like a point to point. So, hopefully, I'm unlikely to to follow the wrong marker. It's more gonna be a case of do I find the markers? I know from watching, like, a previous replay of the 100 k that I'm doing, some people have previously kinda lost the markers and kinda gone off course. But, yeah, I guess, in that case, it's just gonna be a be look out for the markers. Expect to to have to really look for them.

Coach Hayley [00:18:37]: You know? Because they're not obvious. There's no like, you know, in road methods, you've sometimes well, you've often got these, like, kind marshals being like, this way, this way, like a kinda air hostess and they tell you exactly where to go. Yeah. Not in ultra running. It's just like find this tiny bit of tape that someone's tied to a tree. So, yeah, just gotta get used to that.

Cory Nagler [00:19:01]: Yeah. And I think even looking for markers at all may be new to a lot of our runners who are more used to the ropes like myself just because, you know, when you're in a big marathon, there's so many runners around. Oftentimes, you can just follow the person in front of you.

Coach Hayley [00:19:14]: Not that's not necessarily

Cory Nagler [00:19:15]: the case in an ultra.

Coach Hayley [00:19:17]: Yeah. Definitely. And especially as, like, a woman in a race, like, I nearly always in a road race have, like, a big cluster of men around me to just follow, and I think I just expected the same in an ultra, but I guess longer distance. Yeah. It just got a lot more spread out, and actually I was like, I think, like, 3rd or 4th overall at the time. So, there was just a lot of space between everyone, and I couldn't see anyone for that second half of the race. There was there was a lot of time between, the sort of top five people.

Cory Nagler [00:19:52]: Yeah. Yeah. And just before I move on to the next lesson, we touched on hydration as well. So I I'm assuming that you went with a little bit more hydration in this case than just those few sips you said you used to take with the marathon. So what what's your recommendation for anybody else going into their 1st ultra?

Coach Hayley [00:20:07]: Yeah. Definitely. I had good intentions on this, and I've practiced it in training. Like, I think I was kinda going with something like, maybe, like, 400, 500 mil an hour or something, which for me is so much. But in my, like, gradual transition to being more of a an ultra runner, I'd sort of got used to drinking so much more. So I think, it wasn't the I guess it was, like, not the lack of training with that or the lack of planning. It was just knowing how that was gonna be implemented within the race itself. I sort of just assumed that I'd be able to, like, top my bottles up, like, every I think, the race booklet said, like, oh, aids station every 6 miles or something.

Coach Hayley [00:20:49]: And I thought, like, oh, I just, like, top up my bottles with, like, whatever, like, sports drink they have or or, like, some water, every time I see an aid station after I've drunk my bottles. But, they weren't really every 6 miles. They were, like, quite random in in my opinion. And I guess then once I went off the proper course, although that was kinda near the end anyway, so maybe there wouldn't have been one. But, I guess I just thought that would work, And it didn't work that well because I got to a point where I'd finished both my bottles, like, 3 hours in, and I was like, right. I need to top them up. But when is the next aid station? I don't know because I thought it should be, like, here, and it's not here. So, yeah, I guess it's just planning that better and maybe, like, just drinking 1 and then topping that back up.

Coach Hayley [00:21:41]: So I've always got one bottle. I mean, I had, like, the capacity to carry 2 500 milliliter bottles. So in theory, it should have it should have worked out okay. But, like, just where the aid stations were, it didn't. And then, I guess, just with what I was drinking, when I was drinking from my bottles, I'd added like a like an electrolyte tablet to them. But then when I was topping up at the aid stations, that was just plain water, and I think in hindsight, it definitely would have, like, done better actually bringing the electrolyte tablets then add to the water. But, like, I think I just thought they might have something like that, which, again, is just a, like, assumption based on stuff that's happened in road races. And, yeah, I just don't expect things to be at aid stations that you want, and don't expect the aid stations to be where they say they're gonna be.

Coach Hayley [00:22:35]: And and my fault completely because it's just something I have to get used to. Things are not quite so I don't know what the word is. Not quite so so, like, planned and strict in in trail and ultra running, I guess.

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Cory Nagler [00:25:17]: Right. So as a, ultra novice myself, if I understand right, make zero assumptions and and study very closely. Is that fair?

Coach Hayley [00:25:25]: Yeah. That's definitely I mean, I guess, like, this might be like a British ultra thing, so I might even need to change what I think when I do this one in France. But, like, for now, I'm just going with don't make any assumptions about anything.

Cory Nagler [00:25:40]: Okay. Well, I I think that's good advice and that that kinda ties in as well to the next piece I wanna touch on, which is this idea of trying to mimic the race in in training and in knowing what you're gonna use on race day. And you talked about a a bad blister you got on the race course. So I guess maybe at what point in the race did you end up getting this blister? How did you get through it? And and what do you think maybe you could have done differently to avoid something like that, we'll say your upcoming 100 k?

Coach Hayley [00:26:06]: Yeah. I mean, first thing is I'm still worried about blisters for my 100 k because I am, like, the most blister prone person in the world. Like, I think it's just my skin or something. I feel, like, terrible skin. But, every marathon I've done, I've also sort of been on the verge of getting a blister. Thankfully, in a marathon, you're kinda like, just as it starts to hurt, you're like, well, I'm done. So I just I'm a very blister prone person, maybe a bit like my skin type and also the way I run. So it is gonna be still a struggle in the 100 k, and I'm not a 100% sure that I'm gonna, be able to avoid that yet.

Coach Hayley [00:26:41]: But I've come up with some strategies to kind of do if I do start to get one. Because I guess the thing with the ultra is you can't afford to stop and take care of the blister, which I can't actually do in a in, like, a road marathon. But so in the in the 50 k or 55 k as I made it, I actually ended up feeling like a hot spot under my big toe, like, pretty early on, like, maybe 6 miles in. And it did get quite painful, and I was sort of aware of it. And then towards, like, the last, like, 5, 6 miles, it was very painful. But, like, at that point, I was just like, okay. Like, it's gonna hurt. Just just kinda get through it.

Coach Hayley [00:27:21]: You don't have to run for, like, a week after this. So if it hurts, it hurts. And yeah. So I made it through that, but knowing that I have to run at least for at least double the time, in the next one just makes me think I have to be a lot more careful with it and do what I can, because that situation would not be sustainable. And I was lucky that it it kinda hold on at that kind of I can cope with this pain level for the end of the race and didn't didn't get bad earlier. I think the shoe choice was the issue here, and it just it really underlines, a point about just going and trying on shoes and making sure they do feel really good. And that yeah. Like because I had the same road shoe for literally 15, maybe like even 18 years.

Coach Hayley [00:28:18]: I always wore the exact same road shoe. And I would just buy the next model and the next model because it just fit my foot so well. So I would I literally hadn't been to it, a shoe store for so many years because I was buying this model of shoe again and again because it did just do so well for me. Actually, both both my, like, training shoe and my my racing shoe do that. Just buy the same one over and over again. And I must have had, like, a 100 plus pairs of these two types of shoes, and I just found my shoe. But when I started doing trail running, suddenly you need a whole new load of shoes. And I just assumed that it'd be the same size in my road shoe.

Coach Hayley [00:28:58]: And again, just thought, oh, you know, my husband likes this shoe. I'm gonna just, like, order it off the Internet, because that kinda worked with my road shoes. And I don't really have any running shoe shops that near to me. So I thought I'll just order it, see how it feels. And so I tried it and I thought, yeah, it's okay. Maybe it's moving around a little bit, but, you know, it's it's probably gonna be alright. You know, just wear, like, a bigger pair of socks or something. And I think it was just the wrong size.

Coach Hayley [00:29:28]: I think the size that was okay for me in rose shoes just wasn't okay for me in treau shoes. And I've since got, like, a half size down, and it does seem to fit a lot better because I was just, like, sliding around in that shoe in the wheelchair. Like, my my big toe was just kind of sliding around in there, and I guess that's why I got the hot spot. So I think the lesson is just really be make sure you're confident in your footwear choice. Like, since then, I've been to a running shoe store, tried on a whole load of different trial shoes, and found one that I think fits me a bit better and got, like, a better size because I think I think you just have to. Like, I got away with it for so long because I was lucky to find that shoe or that couple of shoes that worked for me, but, I had to put in a lot more work and try to find something that really suited my feet and didn't give me blisters. I'm not confident that I'm not gonna get blisters in the 100 ks. Like I say, I have very blister prone feet and a blister prone running style.

Coach Hayley [00:30:26]: So I put quite a lot pressure through my big toes that undertow blister is a thing I have had before. But, yeah, just trying to find ways to prevent that, really.

Cory Nagler [00:30:36]: Yeah. Well, I'm hopeful for you that you don't have too many blisters because I I think for for the length of an ultra, that's a long time to have to word it out. But the the piece about really just trying everything and knowing what works, does does that apply to terrain as well? Is it as simple as trying to find routes that are either the the same as the race course or or as similar as possible? Or are there other things you can do to to prepare for the the differences between road and and trail?

Coach Hayley [00:31:03]: Yeah. I mean, I think it's, like, absolutely key to train on the surface that you're gonna be racing on. And I did try and do that, and I think I did quite a good job of doing that. It was hard for me at the time because, I mean, this race had, like, I can't remember exactly, but a lot more climbing, like, maybe like a 170 feet per mile, which is a lot compared to what I would do in a regular run at least until I started doing this kind of running. And I'm actually made it's one of the things I think when I did at least attempt to do well is do a lot of training on routes with similar levels of hilliness and similar terrain underfoot as well as I could compared with with the race. I think it was it was very challenging because at the time, I lived in quite a flat area. I did my best, but it was a lot of, like, running kinda loops in a, like, hilly park and just, yeah, hard to replicate, really. I did actually go and run on a bit of the course at one point, which I think was really helpful.

Coach Hayley [00:32:15]: Unfortunately, I didn't actually run the race route as it as it kind of was, which might have helped with my navigation. But, I just ran on a a bit of the course, which I think was really helpful because I I knew what to expect because there were parts that were very rocky and and steep, which isn't something that I could find around where I lived then. I've since moved, and it's a lot easier to find hills and the terrain that you face in trail races. But at the time, I was I was living somewhere where it was very hard to find good trails and very hard to find hills. I I did my best with kind of little trips away and stuff like that, but I would absolutely recommend training, especially for your long runs for something like that. If you're doing back to back long runs, both of those on as terrain as close as you can to race day as possible, and I'm making a big push to to do that for the 100 k. Again, it's it's difficult because, British trails and British hills are very different to European trails and European hills and, like, has a lot more mud and bogs and stuff, but, I'm kind of at least mimicking the elevation profiles and things. So, again, do my best with what I have and might take, another kind of trip somewhere a bit more mountainy around, the UK to to train for that one a bit more.

Coach Hayley [00:33:38]: But I think it's really key. I think I did my best for the 50k, in terms of trying to replicate the hills, but and I did do probably what I could've done with where I lived and and my ability to travel, but I definitely felt that I my legs struggled, not in the race, but after the race, which I guess isn't so much of a problem because you've done it then. But I was in a lot of pain. I've never had such bad doms in my quads. I literally could not walk down the stairs, like, 3 days. I was generally worried that I'd, like, like, torn them or something. It was that bad. I could not, like, tense my quad.

Coach Hayley [00:34:15]: It was shocking really, like, how bad it was. So I think I tried to do more. I did enough for the race, but in terms of preventing, like, agony afterwards, I could do more. Right.

Cory Nagler [00:34:28]: Yeah. And I I think it, it makes sense that you wanna mimic because especially on those long runs, which are the closest to what you're doing during the race. So that idea of specificity kind of carries over from the marathon to the ultra. One other thing you mentioned is this idea of a double long run. And I've kind of heard a little bit about this, but I I think it's a little bit more common in the ultra world than the marathon. And and one of the other lessons you provided when we touch base outside of this recording is is that you actually didn't do that many long runs preparing for this race. So you maybe wanna tell us a little bit about what your training looked like for the long run and maybe anything that worked well or that didn't work well and you'll be tweaking for your next race?

Coach Hayley [00:35:11]: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, it was all quite like I mean, I'm self coached, so I had the ability to kind of be very flexible and also experiment. And a lot of it's very specific to me and the challenges that I faced. And it was all kind of as a result of that rather than thinking this is the optimal way to train. It was I think that was a big switch I made for the ultras in marathon running. I tried to think, oh, you know, it was hard not to get into that mindset of, oh, such and such does this or, you know, you should do this. You have to do this.

Coach Hayley [00:35:40]: This is what people do for a marathon. For trail, ultra, I think is there is lot a lot different ways that kind of elites train. Like, there's people who do a lot of long runs, people who do hardly any long runs, people do a lot of speed work, people who do no speed work, and all able to compete at the same level. And that actually is one of the things that really drew me to it because I had been struggling with training for a marathon for a lot of years. So I decided to go into this with a different attitude training, like, to my optimum rather than trying to do what I think I should do or what other people do, and really just kind of adapt things as I could to kinda overcome the challenges that I've been facing with road running. So, I'll mostly talk about the long run, but I will say briefly some of the other things. My training, I guess, was quite basic. So I tried to, like, cover 65 to 80 miles a week, I'd say.

Coach Hayley [00:36:32]: I had a quick flick back at my my Strava, and I think I was kind of between those kind of parameters, which is quite low compared to what I would previously do for a marathon. I've definitely done kind of up to a 100 miles a week. Maybe most marathon cycles, I'd peak between kinda 90a100. But I think just with the trail running, it a, I was often, like, tired a lot when I did that much mileage. And I just think for me, perhaps it it did become a little bit too much compared to what my body could handle, but also just because with the trail running, I the runs take so much longer that actually the amount of hours I was putting in was probably comparable to what I would do for a road marathon. Because for a road marathon, you know, I'll probably doing a long run, like 20 miles, low 6 minute miles, and that would take a couple of hours. But when I did a 20 mile trail run for my ultra, the the terrain made it that I was running maybe, like, I don't know, it was taking maybe 3 and a half hours. So the the time was there, and I sort of took that approach of, like, actually, the the time is still what I would probably do for a road marathon.

Coach Hayley [00:37:42]: So so this is probably enough, and this feels like enough. Like, I took a very much, like, by feel approach for it and didn't had kind of an idea what I wanted to do, but it was very much adapted based on how I feel, how I felt as I went, and, how my body was kinda responding to it. It was also new to me, like, just actually running up and down hills in training was such a, like, new thing to me, that I really just wanted to, like, give my body an opportunity to kinda adapt to the different stimulus. And I've heard some people say that, oh, you really can get injured when you first start introducing, like, a lot of descending, you know, because it's quite, a lot of loading, especially on, like, the quads and quite a lot of impact. So I just wanted to be careful and make sure that I wasn't getting sore, not not excessively sore anyway, and that I was not overdoing things. Because I definitely have in the past, and it was important to me to really listen to my body in this training. So I didn't really have any targets as such like I might have done with the marathon in terms of what I wanted to do mileage wise. So then like speed work, because for a marathon, I'll probably do sort of 2 hard workouts a week, kinda tempo.

Coach Hayley [00:38:51]: I mix it like tempo and speed. As she went into this, to the training for the Ultra unable to do any speed work because I've been struggling with, like, a hamstring issue for for quite some time, which, like, flared up every time I tried to do speed work. So that was kind of a challenge. But, like, because I knew that speed work wasn't so important for the old tray, it almost took the pressure off. And I just decided to try, like, easing into speed work really, really slowly. And I, like, started off with when I say speed work, I mean, like, any hard workout would just really flare up my hamstring. So for a while, I've just been running like miles and using, like, hilly roots to get more of a workout. So then I started off at the start of the block just doing, like, a 5 minute tempo, and that was it, which I think I would have struggled to do that before when I was training for Rhodes.

Coach Hayley [00:39:39]: But I just thought, like, let's just see if I can reintroduce speed work, like hard workouts without aggravating my hamstring. I just do it really carefully. So I added, like, 5 minutes a week, like, tempo. And I did end up actually been able to do, like, one tempo workout a week during the kind of main ultra build, which I think was really helpful. Because although it was so much, quicker than I actually wanted to run-in the Ultra, it just made those places that I was running in the Ultra feel easier. So I just did, like, sort of 25 to 30 minutes of tempo, kinda split up as I felt, actually. I just sort of split it up how I felt on the day. So I so, basically, I did, like, the mileage and then added in this one, like, tempo workout a week.

Coach Hayley [00:40:25]: So there really wasn't much many hard workouts or even that much structure to it. The long runs probably was the most structured part, so I kind of thought of that as the most important park given that it was just a really, really long run. So, but, yeah, like, when I say long run, I didn't really do many runs over 20 miles actually. And I I just feel that and and my, like, philosophy on it is is once you get past that kind of 3 to 4 hours on your feet, it's something that's quite hard to train for, and it's more about, like, fueling than and hydrating than it is about actually having done those longer runs. And just similar to, like, how we at Runners Connect train people for marathons, it's actually just such a risk. Well, like, it can be risky to go that long that you're actually better, doing less longer runs. But, you know, making the training kinda support that. So those long runs, like, serve the purpose that you want.

Coach Hayley [00:41:31]: So you might be kinda doing them on a tired legs. And I guess that's where, like, the back to backs you were talking about came in. So I guess I did a lot of weekends that were, like, long run on both the Saturday and the Sunday. Maybe, like, let's say 20 miles on the Saturday, and then I'd go and do, like, 16 miles on the Sunday. And I did that quite a few times. And didn't really then go over 20 ish in the training, which was felt like plenty. Again, because of the terrain, these long runs are kinda taking me, like, 3 and a half hours. So it felt like plenty of time on the feet, and I definitely feel that that was enough even though that's probably less than what I might have done for a marathon in terms of mileage.

Cory Nagler [00:42:21]: Right. And just to put this in perspective for people listening, because I think it can be quite surprising to hear that you're, only really going up to this 20 mile marker or doing, you know, only 2 or 3 of them in a block. But when you say 3 and a half hours, you're you're talking about probably about one and a half times what it would take you to do that on a flat road if you're marathon training. Is that about right?

Coach Hayley [00:42:41]: Absolutely. Like and so, this this training block and this this race was a lot of kind of, you know, first things ever for me. So it was also early on when I started doing this this training block, it was the longest I've ever spent running quite quickly because even when I did marathons, I don't think I mean, the longest I'd ever run prior to starting, this this training for ultras was basically the slowest time I've ever done for a marathon. So, yeah, so I never really run further than, like, 3 hours ever before I started training for this ultra. So quite early on, I was every week doing, like, the longest time I'd ever spent running. So it was quite an adjustment.

Cory Nagler [00:43:31]: Yeah. And I'm sure an accomplishment too when you get through those long runs as well.

Coach Hayley [00:43:35]: Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a different game. So, like, I find it so much mentally easier because whereas for the marathon, I do things like running 20 miles with, like, 12 at marathon pace. And it's all, like, really focused. And I'm trying to run it quickly and, you know, focusing all the way and every bit feels quite tough. And it's just on, you know, the straightest, flattest loop I can find. With the ultra, it's more I was really going quite slowly and taking time to take on nutrition and stuff. And, like, if I need to stop to well, if I wanted to stop to take, like, a picture or something, that was fine.

Coach Hayley [00:44:17]: Or stop to look at a map. Like, it was just a completely different approach. Like, the the kind of I guess, the intensity with which I was working was a lot lower, I guess, which made it made it easier in some ways. I have to say I found it a lot easier to do the long runs for the ultra than I did for the marathon. They were definitely a lot more enjoyable for me, and a lot less stressful.

Cory Nagler [00:44:43]: Well, that's awesome that it was enjoyable because I I think the idea of being on your feet for 3 and a half or or more hours, especially if your norm is 2 hours, is be quite intimidating or at least it it sounds intimidating, from my end.

Coach Hayley [00:44:56]: It really was to me before I started doing this. You know, this is quite this all happened quite quickly in terms of me changing to trail and ultra running because, for you know, I started to get this idea, like, in in, like, last year in summer. And I quickly kinda started doing the trade, like, thinking, okay, I'm gonna enter this one in January. I'm gonna start trading now. But it was such a switch because before I would like my husband is is a fairly accomplished ultra runner, and I've been crewing and supporting his races for years. And I would just sit thank you, God, this is crazy. These people are crazy. Like, why would you wanna run for, like, 10 hours? Like, I love running fast.

Coach Hayley [00:45:33]: You know, I like training for the marathon and the half marathon and, like, trying to hit times and, like, you know, I was the kind of person that if I had to, like, hike in or, you know, stop in a in a long run for marathon, I would be, like, really stressed by it and be like, oh, no. Or, like, if I had to stop for a gate or something, I'd be like, oh, god. This is so annoying. I'm so stressed. And I used to think that my husband was kind of mad and I did not know why he wanted to do what he did and like run-in the night. That was particularly something that I thought, oh my god, at least math didn't finish and like, you know, they finish at like lunch time. I didn't wanna run at like 10 PM at night or something. That's so stupid.

Coach Hayley [00:46:16]: I mean, I literally thought that was something I would never do. It was such a, I mean, my husband still laughs about it now because it was such a sudden and unexpected twist.

Cory Nagler [00:46:27]: Yeah. I'm I'm chuckling in the background because this is also relatable in terms of dreading the the stopping or the having to go through a gate or anything like that. But you you mentioned your husband, he he has a little bit more experience with the ultras. What's his background like?

Coach Hayley [00:46:40]: Yeah. So thing is with him is he was a he also started as a marathina. He was a very lazy marathina already in that he was very talented. I mean, like, without doing much training, because he kinda liked to stop and walk on runs. And, you know, that he was not the typical marathon runner personality. You know? Like, I was always the typical marathoner personality when you think of, like, a kind of competitive marathoner, like, you know, stressing about times and not wanting to walk like, walking on a run. Oh my god. Like, can't do that.

Coach Hayley [00:47:18]: Eating on a run. Crazy. I that was always me, but he was always the opposite even though he was focusing on road map. And I say focusing because he's very relaxed and laid back about everything. He's, like, my opposite. But he kinda got into ultras, like, maybe 4 years ago. And I think he just loved the fact that he could walk and also eat. But it turns out he is quite good at them.

Coach Hayley [00:47:44]: So he was the, I think, British trail ultra champion this year or something. That doesn't sound like I'm very, talking very much of, like, you know, I'm not really bigging it up, but I I am proud. He won some kind of British trail running championships or something, which was an 86 mile race. So without really being so focused as I am in terms of, you know, the sort of typical perfectionist runner, he has found something he's very good at. So, yeah, I guess he's just got more into it as he's realized he's quite okay at it. And those things were things he already liked. Like, he really already liked just going out and running without a pace in mind, and he wasn't one for splits. And, he wasn't really one for a training plan or a structure.

Coach Hayley [00:48:34]: It was more like, I just you know, he'd just get these urges like, oh, I just fancy going and running 30 miles a day. So he would. So he was already in that ultra mindset before he really even started ultras and realized he was really quite good at them. So, yeah, he was already there. But I would see what he was doing and think, oh my god. That's crazy and stupid.

Cory Nagler [00:48:56]: It this totally connects with exactly my experience with marathoners versus ultra marathoners, where I'm I'm very much the type a personality too, kind of has a plan and knows what they're gonna run versus the the ultra world where it's more typical to kinda go out and play it by ear. But you you you touched on your husband also really liking the the fueling piece or or walking around and eating. Yeah. Is is he kind of take it as it goes with fueling, or is he a little bit more deliberate in that piece?

Coach Hayley [00:49:27]: I think he's more deliberate now. You know, since he's realized he's quite good at it, he's definitely got more serious and kind of worked it out more because he wants to he has kinda realized that, okay, I could reach quite a high level, so I want to try a bit more, which is kinda surprising. He so, yeah, he has more of a structure now, but he's also very lucky in that he does not have a sensitive stomach. Therefore, his you know, when he first started doing ultras, it was kinda like, I'm just gonna eat like a Mars bar every time I get hungry, and it works because he doesn't have a sensitive stomach. He's kind of just been really lucky that he's, like, privileged in the kind of stomach situation, whereas I am, like, not, so I had to be more careful. But it's weird because he he's never been that kind of typical perfectionist type a runner, which I am absolutely a 100%. So I guess that makes it even more shocking, like, the sort of change, and I'm still shocked myself that this happened because if you'd have told me like a year ago, I mean, I literally remember, like, almost exactly a year ago, was when I got married. And I was on my honeymoon, and it was kinda we we were in a really lovely place that was quite mountain y.

Coach Hayley [00:50:36]: So we thought we'd do some trail running. And I just still remember, like, a year ago, just getting really annoyed because I had to walk up this hill. Like, I'm thinking, God, why do people do this? And that was literally like a year ago, and I cannot believe, like, how my mindset has changed. It's just really weird.

Cory Nagler [00:50:53]: Yeah. That it it's amazing how much your mindset can shift with these changes. And, you know, for for those who relate a little bit more to the marathon mindset, both in terms of the the type a personality and and also maybe the the sensitive stomach piece as well, one of the things you told me that's really key to the ultra marathon is just getting in enough carbs and eating a lot. So if you're not like your husband where you can eat just about anything you you want and get away with it, what advice do you have for the rest of us?

Coach Hayley [00:51:21]: Yeah. Absolutely. Like, it was definitely not one of my strong points in the marathon. I tried to have gels in the marathon, but I was probably always on the very much the lower end what people recommended. And I would get a lot of stitches and feel very sick a lot. I'm sure even in my best marathons, I probably ended up, like, skipping a gel or something because I felt a bit sick or had a stitch. And it was just not something that I was very good at. And probably I could I mean, I don't know, but if I'd have known what I know now, I maybe could have used it to my advantage in the marathons, because that was definitely not a place that I kind of benefited in the marathon.

Coach Hayley [00:51:58]: And it's not what I did is definitely not what I would preach to my athletes. And I just thought, you know, this is me. This is I have a sense of stomach. I'm I just could never do ultras because I cannot eat when I'm running. I cannot take in a lot of fuel. But, I guess, it's just training, really. Like, I just started doing it, and I was amazed that I could just build up how much carbohydrate I could take on board. I started kind of at the lower end, and I just tried to take on more and more, and I tried different fuel sources.

Coach Hayley [00:52:33]: I definitely think the new types of gels that are available, like well, I guess they're not that new, but, like, the you know, there's, gels that probably maybe weren't around when I first start doing rounds, which makes me kinda feel really old to say that actually. But, like the kinda more liquid gels that are a bit easier to get down, like SIS Beta gels, which have a bit more carbohydrate in, or, like, the ones I used a lot in my Ultra Precision Nutrition gels. It's just so much easier to kinda get down than the really very thick, very concentrated gels that I used to use for the marathon. So I think definitely the improvement to the gels that are available, has helped me. But also, it is just really just, like, training my stomach, really. And and I really put a lot of effort into this. I would perfectly try and, like, have my breakfast just before I went out running. Whereas before, I'd, like, have to wait like 3 hours.

Coach Hayley [00:53:28]: And when I was training for this ultra, I was literally very committed to this. I was like, right. I might feel sick, but I'm gonna eat my breakfast and I'm gonna go out straight away. Or, you know, I just, like, take some stuff and just decide to, like, you know, I think what did I have? Like, these waffle things. If I was doing a run on the treadmill, which I did do sometimes because I got, like, the treadmill that got uphill, and that kinda helped me, replicate some of the climbing. So I just, like, on this treadmill, grab one of these waffles and try and eat while I was on the treadmill, at least then if I did feel sick or something or or need to stop, I would be in my house. So I just, yeah, I really trained it and just fill up. And then in the race, I think I actually take took on 80 grams of carbohydrate per hour, which is just, like, unthinkable to me when I probably take on about 1 gel per hour in the marathon before.

Coach Hayley [00:54:17]: So it was quite a step up. And, obviously, the slower pace does help. I couldn't say whether how I would do in the marathon because just things like being able to when you hike up a steep hill, use that to fuel is, like, a really helpful thing. But I know that the biggest factor is just training my stomach. Just just really, like, just trying it and just not saying like I used to. Like, oh, I can't do this. No. No.

Coach Hayley [00:54:42]: I don't wanna do that. Like, just taking every opportunity. And I think it just shows kind of my changing mindset as well because, I probably would have thought previously, like, oh, I can't fuel for, like, an hour run. You know? Like, I can't take something on during a run. I don't know where those thoughts kind of came from, but they were probably, you know, I was quite funny with with eating when I was a teenager. Like, I had some some kind of issues that I had to work through, and I think that was, like, leftover thinking from that in that I I thought, oh, you know, it's not healthy or good to to have a gel on just like an hour run, but I just managed to completely kinda get past that and actually had appeared of like, I really went all in on, like, trying to practice this fueling where I had kind of a a month where I literally almost took on a gel on, like, every single one, even if it was just like an hour or 70 minutes or something. So it was just that practice and try to yeah. Maybe try to get over some, like, deep seated kind of ways of thinking that I'd kept since I, since I, like I mean, I was never really officially, you know, diagnosed with any kind of eating disorder as a teenager, but I definitely recognize now that I had thoughts and maybe linked to the running I did then that were not, like, healthy in terms of fueling.

Coach Hayley [00:55:59]: And I didn't realize how much of that I'd sort of been hanging on to. But in this train block, I just got past all of that to kind of try and really get on board with the fueling because I just realized how helpful it was. But I was quite surprised how I was able to kind of do that as well. It just was quite surprising how my mindset sort of shifted, but I'm not entirely sure what well, I know what, like, what I think kind of triggered that, but, like, it did seem to happen quite quickly, really.

Cory Nagler [00:56:28]: Yeah. And I I think this piece of just eat more and and train your gut is something that, is preached a lot in the ultra endurance world, but maybe is is hard to appreciate if you haven't actually done an ultra race yet. I also do, I have to ask when you refer to these waffles. Are are you talking about those strip waffles? Because if so, I think I've had them, and they're quite tasty.

Coach Hayley [00:56:51]: The ones I had were, like, from a brand called Nac, I think it's called. But I think I think I know what you're talking about, and I think it's, exactly the same thing. And I do find them quite tasty. They are quite enjoyable.

Cory Nagler [00:57:02]: Yeah. Yeah. They're they're good. And they they do go down easy as well, whether it's pre run or during the run.

Coach Hayley [00:57:07]: Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:57:08]: Yeah. Awesome. Not a sponsor, but, good product. This is probably a a British product, Nat, because I haven't heard of it before.

Coach Hayley [00:57:15]: Yeah. I think it's like, French because the reason I started trying it is because the race I'm doing in France has it at all their aid stations. And because I'm not, like, having a crew or anything, I I'm gonna have to try and use what they have a bit. So I thought I just rather than kinda making the mistakes and the assumptions I did before, just really practicing with they've got, like, the list of products that they're gonna have at the aid station. So I've just, like, bought them all and started practicing with them. So, yeah, I'm kind of hoping, hopefully, on top of that a bit.

Cory Nagler [00:57:48]: Yeah. This is a good lesson too because I always find that's a tough part about traveling to different cities for races is when you get products that aren't available locally, so you kinda have to ship them in if you wanna try try it in advance.

Coach Hayley [00:58:00]: Yeah. Absolutely. Like, I I just decided I'm gonna get the list of what they have at aid stations, and I'm gonna make sure I like these things by the time of this race. Just kinda hard because it is like a brand that is quite different to, like, what, like, traditionally, like, probably British and American gels are. They're they're quite, this knack is quite, you know, they're not just carbs. They've got a bit of protein in as well, which I think is can be beneficial for an ultra, but it's like a whole new thing to adjust your stomach to you when you're running. So, it definitely there's a lot more to them than just, like, your sort of carbohydrate based products, which is a bit of an adjustment as well. Hopefully, I've started trying them with enough time to go.

Cory Nagler [00:58:43]: Yeah. That that's interesting that they put, protein in as well. Anyways, this Yeah. This is not meant to be a a nutrition, podcast, but I think it is such a key component of Ultra. So it It is. Yeah. It was worth touching on. I do wanna transition to kind of the the last big lesson you provided to me when we spoke offline because I I think it's maybe the most important one for anyone considering Ultra as in in more around mindset.

Cory Nagler [00:59:07]: But can you maybe tell us a little bit about, what it is you love so much about the ultra distances and kind of maybe how it's changed your perspective on running or racing?

Coach Hayley [00:59:19]: Yeah. Absolutely. I guess I guess it's it's yeah. Again, it's kinda crazy because I would not have said that I loved ultra running or trolling, like, a year ago. And I really hated all the things that I now love about it, I think, but it's hard to say when the switch kinda happened. I guess that these hamstring issues I talked about were almost like the last straw for me with road running because for I mean, my best times in the marathon were a long time ago. Like, and for no particular reason as well. Like, it was hard to explain.

Coach Hayley [00:59:57]: So my best times in the marathon were from kinda 2015. That's the last time I PR'd in the road. And, having my kinda coaching knowledge, I knew I was doing everything right, and I knew that I was now healthy because I had a lot tests. I saw a lot of specialists because I just could not hit those times. And it was not that I felt bad. It wasn't that I was like, oh, I feel so terrible all the time. It was just, I think, oh, I'm feeling good. And I'd look at my watch and the time would be slower, and it was just so unexplainable.

Coach Hayley [01:00:29]: And I I just was I think I was just slowly, like, falling out of love of road running. And although, obviously, it's not about times, to some degree, I guess it all it is because we want to PR and we want to get faster, and there's something so disheartening of and, you know, if I if I was a bit older and I thought I'd gone past my my peak performances, I might have accepted it, and I might have thought, well, this is cool. I can just, you know, try and get 8th graded best times or whatever. But, you know, my best times were set when I was, like, 23, and I was, like, you know, 29:30. And I was thinking, I should be on my peak by now, but and I don't know what I've done wrong because I'm, you know, I know I've I've got all this knowledge now. I know I'm doing everything right. Things are better than they were then, you know. I was still trying to be a early twenties person back then when I got my best times.

Coach Hayley [01:01:20]: Yeah. I was still sometimes, like, going out and having a drink and, enjoying myself as well as training. And, you know, but then, when I was a bit older, I was like living more the athlete lifestyle, going to bed early, didn't drink, eating healthily. And I but, yeah, I could not get any of those times I could get when I was 23, 24. And despite, you know, having more mileage behind me, And there were no, like, massive injuries. There were a lot of niggles actually, but no, like, big injuries. And it was just, you know, I just could not explain it, why I could not hit these times. And I had so many blood tests and paid so many, like, sports doctors.

Coach Hayley [01:01:56]: And I just I think I was just slowly falling out of love of road running. And and it was like and I like to think that I liked road running for more than just the times and the PRs. But it was something so, like, disheartening to sort of try my best and just never be able to think, okay, I'm gonna go for a PR today or because it would just be so much slower and, and I just never feel like I felt when I was running my best times. And I just I just start a race and I just kind of look at my watch again and I'd think like, know, what am I doing wrong? Why can't I run like I used to? There's absolutely no reason because I'm not, like, you know, I'm not past my pH. If I was, I'd think, well, that's why. But it was just getting so frustrating and disheartening. And although I didn't have anything big injury wise, really, I think these little niggles were kind of grating on me because, again, I'm I thought I'm doing everything right. I don't understand why there's kind of always some little thing.

Coach Hayley [01:02:54]: And I I have kind of more insight into maybe why that was now, but at the time, I just could not put my finger on it. And I think it just kinda wore me down with road running to just think I was doing everything right. And I think one thing that really got me down was just that because I'd had quite a lot of success at a young age with with road running and thought I could kinda take it to a to a high level, maybe even, you know, compete for my country, etcetera, become like, yeah, like a sponsorship or whatever. I made some life changes. There were things I didn't do because of that because I thought I can focus on running. And I think just knowing that I've made a lot of sacrifices to kind of follow that path was just, like, really upsetting when you're just getting slower and slower. And I had a sponsor, and they just basically, like, said and and quite rightly, they they left feed. They were like, you know, you're not really performing at the level of someone we want to sponsor.

Coach Hayley [01:03:46]: And my training group as well. I didn't have a training group anymore. And I think it was just having made all those life changes to around running because I thought I could get somewhere with it and maybe make a career out of it that I just, it was very disheartening and always depressing to just be thinking, I've made all these changes. You know, I don't have a career that I perhaps otherwise might have chosen. And yet I'm not really getting anywhere. And I think it just, like, wore me down. And even though I didn't maybe feel this happening, it when it it seems like the decision to try something else was was so sudden. It probably more was a case of of things very slowly kind of, you know, another another thing and another thing and, like, then kind of overflowing at once seeming sudden, but it was just stuff adding up and fed up her feeling down and, like, kind of disheartened and frustrated.

Coach Hayley [01:04:42]: And at times, like, a bit depressed because it really was like I'd given up other other career paths and other things to focus on this, but it wasn't going anywhere. And I think I just saw my friends kind of who weren't runners. They had continued to follow that path and were, like, you know, in jobs that I in career paths I perhaps could have followed if there wasn't this running thing. And I it just felt so harsh that I was now, despite thinking I was doing everything right, nowhere near that elite level anymore. And, yeah, I think that just led to me thinking, right, I'm just gonna try something new. And it was something like really unexpected. But I just realized that all the things that were kind of upsetting me and getting me down about road running suddenly didn't really fill them anymore because there wasn't that, like, extreme focus on time. There was so much more to focus on.

Coach Hayley [01:05:32]: There wasn't that you know, there's so many things, perhaps boxes that you need to tick for math. You need to do this much at math and pace. You need to you know, there's certain workouts that that people like to include and that I like to include in my training block and, like, but with the Ultra, I noticed there's so many different ways to do it. There's so many different ways to train as well. And that, you know, that solved my niggle problem because, you know, like, like, I had kind of a quad niggle a few a couple of weeks ago, probably related to all the descending I've been doing, but, where I'd normally have become frustrated and tried to run through it or, had to take some rest. You know, I just I just did, some, like, uphill treadmill because, you know, you need to work on climbing, and it just took the impact away. And I was still training, but, like, in a way that didn't aggravate it. And I think there's just just having so many different ways to train for an ultra is something I love about it.

Coach Hayley [01:06:29]: There's no one formula, which and I know there's not on road running either. But for me, I kind of felt like there was. Yeah. I couldn't do that training that I wanted to do for the road marathon because of the niggles and I couldn't hit the times. And it all just felt very, like, negative. And I'd let it become negative as well. But, like, I think just changing to something where there was less time focus, less, you know, one way to train, more flexibility in how you train because there are elite ultra runners who runs, elite trail ultra runners who run 50 miles a week, and there's elite trail ultra runners who run a 120 miles a week, and they're competing at the same level. You know? Some are mixing in loads of biking, elliptical skiing, and some are just doing all running.

Coach Hayley [01:07:12]: Like, there's so many different ways to train. And I think just knowing that I can now have that flexibility has helped with niggles. It's helped with my stress levels and my enjoyment. And like just having those other things to focus on. If you're having a bad day running or you don't feel great, you know, you've got a beautiful scenery. You've got like, you know, nature to look at as well. Like, we see some kind of good wildlife or something. So, yeah, like, I feel like it's just a completely different mindset, and it's a completely, much more positive mindset that it's put me in when actually I was kind of in danger of getting quite down and depressed with road running.

Coach Hayley [01:07:53]: And I still don't really understand why I couldn't perform like I did with the road running anymore because I kinda ticked all those boxes health wise and training wise. And and I had worked with different coaches in in road running. I'd work with like some of some people who are regarded as being like, you know, the top coaches. I'd also been self coached, but I just couldn't could not understand why I couldn't reach those times anymore. But I think finding this new kind of sport has allowed me to kind of leave that behind and think, okay, actually, when I'm doing this sport, I do feel like myself again. And I do feel like I could improve again. I think just that, like, lack of ever being able to improve, despite there now being real reason, no real reason for it really got to me with road running, whereas it's not how I feel anymore with trail running. But, yeah, there's so much to love about trail running, I think.

Coach Hayley [01:08:45]: And I don't know how I've made I don't really know how I've made this switch in mindset where I don't, like, feel like, you know, like having a tantrum every time I have to walk because there's a steep hill or like some trees or like some bushes to go through or something. But, you know, I don't really feel like that anymore. I yeah. It's like a completely different mindset for me and a whole it feels like a whole different sport, really, but I think that's kind of what I needed. So

Cory Nagler [01:09:12]: Yeah. I think it absolutely is a completely different sport, and you kinda touched on that mindset shift a little if anyone listened to our episode on the, the I can't remember the exact titling whether it was the the the best or the, the the toughest race distance where you made your case for the the ultras, but, you essentially touched on it, essentially helping you to refine your love of running, which is a big sell. So you touched on a lot of amazing elements of of ultra running that you love. But just to close out this episode, for anyone who's in a similar situation where maybe they're in a rut or they've plateaued plateaued or, they're ready for a change in their running? What's what's your quick your quick elevator pitch for why they should take up ultra running?

Coach Hayley [01:09:55]: Yeah. I think, just don't put labels on yourself. Like, I I label myself a roadrunner and, like, someone who hated walking and runs and would never do these things. But, like, actually, I think that would you know, that was all in my head. And don't label yourself as something. Let yourself try different things and see if you like them. Don't make judgments for you've actually tried something. And, yeah, like, if you love nature and spending time outside and wildlife, like, trail running is so amazing for that.

Coach Hayley [01:10:27]: And, you know, I think what I I think the most important thing I want to say is, like, if you think now that you're someone who could never do that kind of running, like, that is act like, exactly how I felt 1 year ago. And now I feel like I could never go back to road running. So don't think that you couldn't feel like that. Like, I think that's what's amazing me the most is just how your mindset can change. Because yeah. Like, I used to hate all this kind of stuff. So, yeah, don't don't underestimate how much your mind can change and just try it and see.

Cory Nagler [01:11:04]: Yeah. That's absolutely incredible, the the way you've been able to, like, fully dive into the ultra world. But I think a good takeaway that you can still absolutely come back, and I am sure based on what you're doing at the Ultra scene that you could still run some pretty quick time. So, Haley, this was great. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing a little bit about your experience in the Ultra world.

Coach Hayley [01:11:24]: I really enjoyed it. Thank you. I hope it's encouraging people to try a trail at ultra running.

Cory Nagler [01:11:29]: I think it absolutely will, and, best of luck with your upcoming 100 k rates.

Coach Hayley [01:11:35]: Thanks. Awesome.

Cory Nagler [01:11:37]: Well, thanks for listening everyone, and happy running. Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at corey_nagler. Worth your strap up by searching Corey Nagler, and please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runners connect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast. Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, then consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netforward/podcast. I'll see you on the next show.

Cory Nagler [01:12:32]: But until then, happy running, everyone.