The biggest running mistakes from our expert coaching team

Finn Melanson [00:00:09]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn Melanson, and this is the Run to the Top podcast. The podcast to making you a better runner with each and every episode. We are created and produced by the expert team of coaches at Runners Connect.net, where you can find the best running information on the as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. It takes a lot of hard work and talent to become a pro runner or coach, but even the best of us make mistakes. In this episode, our expert team from Runners Connect is sharing their biggest running mistakes so you can learn to avoid making the same ones. You know, training for a big goal can be overwhelming, but Runners Connect is built on the idea of community and of bringing runners together to learn from each other to progress as athletes. We've all had bad workouts or messed up fueling in a race or a long run, and our coaches are no exception.

Finn Melanson [00:01:04]: So as they share their own biggest training mistakes, we hope you'll learn lots while maybe even Getting a laugh or 2 in the process. I'm excited to hear from the RC team. So with that, I'll hand it off to Corey to introduce our panel for the day. If you're tired of dirty and wet seats after your winter runs, Then you have to check out the car seat covers made specifically for runners from dry seats. Head to dri seats.com To learn more and use code RC 20 at checkout to get 20% off your first order. Lagoon specializes in making pillows designed specifically for runners and athletes to help you optimize your sleep and recovery. Learn more at lagoon sleep.com forward slash t o p and get a 15% discount.

Cory Nagler [00:01:57]: Welcome back to the Run to the Top podcast. Most of you listening are probably not professional athletes, and neither am I. I think it can be super reassuring to know that even the most experienced runners still make mistakes in training. That's why I'm excited to have a full panel of our coaching team today, Discussing their biggest running mistakes, so I can't wait to hear some great stories. We've got former NCAA All American, Alex Osberg, Semi professional marathoner Andy Cozzarelli, and our head coach, Michael Hammond, who boasts an impressive sub 4 minute mile, all here to help you learn from their mistakes. Thank you all for joining me today.

Michael Hammond [00:02:32]: Thanks, Corey. Happy to be here. Looking forward to it, Corey.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:02:36]: Yeah. Excited for this one.

Cory Nagler [00:02:38]: I'm excited too. For the listeners who are tuning in today, I hope that, this episode because a lot went into this. We've had some technical difficulties and after finally rescheduling many times, we've got everyone together. So I really just wanna hop right into it. Alex, let's lead it lead it off with your story of your biggest training mistake.

Alex Ostberg [00:03:01]: Sure. Thanks, Corey. So when I was preparing for this podcast, I really had no shortage of mistakes that came to mind. And I think if you were to sample a group of runners, People most of the time when they think about mistakes would gravitate towards injuries. Right? Because and I think there's an obvious reason for that. Right? Injuries are a very physical manifestation of a mistake. But when I was thinking back at all the injuries and the so called mistakes that I've made, Really, a lot of times, they had a pretty simple answer, which for me was just load mismanagement. Like, I probably got injured most of the time just from doing too much too soon.

Alex Ostberg [00:03:33]: So I wanted to challenge myself to think of Stories and examples that really, broaden the definition of what a mistake meant. I wanted to look at my approach, my lifestyle, and all those other factors, and then really start to ask some provocative questions to give the listeners an exciting episode. So to jump right into it, to tell my story, I need to rewind rewind the clock back to 2000 This is in the middle of the COVID pandemic. I was finishing up my 5th year at Stanford University as a as a 5th year senior there, And, I decided I was gonna do a graduate transfer to the University of North Carolina. I was fortunate, at Stanford to have had a good amount of success up until that point. I was all American a few times and run some good PRs. But when I wanted to move to UNC, I did so because I wanted to reach the next level. Right? And my life's focus Very quickly became narrowly defined around one definition of success, which in my mind was to try to win an NCAA title.

Alex Ostberg [00:04:26]: And I was prepared to sacrifice almost anything in service of that goal because I felt like if I could achieve that, then everything would be worth it. Right? Like, I would validate my own decision to move. I would prove all the doubters wrong. Everyone who thought that going from Stanford to UNC was a bad idea, I I would I would stick it to them and I I would prove them wrong. And when I actually did land in Chapel Hill and started that new training environment, there was a lot of uncertainty. Right? And and when I was looking to validate my own decision to switch tracks, I really tried to manufacture a sense of certainty in a situation where so many things were rapidly changing. And I I reverted to my tried and and tested method of Of what I knew works best for me, which was just to work harder. And so what I did in service of that goal to to win that NCAA title was, You know, I added new visualization routines, sleep routines.

Alex Ostberg [00:05:11]: I added more mileage, more supplementary work. I was really trying to solve the problem, I think, with brute force. And I viewed my my budget of of daily energy expenditure like a zero sum game. Right? So that any unit of energy not spent on performance was subtracting from my performance like staying up 30 minutes too late. 30 minutes late, for instance, just to watch a movie was was 30 minutes of precious sleep that I that I'd be missing out on. Right? Like, going to a concert was a nonstarter because it'd be too much time on my feet. And I was really trying to engineer every aspect of of my life around peak performance. And I think, you know, while this example is extreme, I don't think you have to have taken it to that level to get the gist of what I'm talking about because discipline really is rewarded in our sport and for a good reason.

Alex Ostberg [00:05:53]: Right? But the thing that's insidious about it in my mind, about discipline and the cluster of traits that typically are shared by high performers, is that the things that bring you to the top are oftentimes the same things that push you over the edge. And in my case, that really is what happened. Unfortunately, in in January of 2021, this was only 6 months after I had arrived at UNC, I actually was diagnosed with a stress fracture in my left navicular bone. In March of 2021, I underwent a surgery where I had, 2 titanium screws placed in that bone, which are still there today. And so that goal that I, you know, I was striving for, that my life's purpose was about, that n c, double a title, I was robbed of that opportunity. I I it never materialized. I never even got the chance. So I don't wanna end the story in such a somber tone.

Alex Ostberg [00:06:37]: There's thankfully is a fairy tale ending to this story. If you fast forward a year later, in 2022, I was able to use a medical red shirt to get that eligibility back and all American in my final race as a as a collegiate runner, which was really exciting. But, really, what I wanted to do for the sake of this episode was reflect back on that period of intensive personal growth That that was that came about because of that adversity that I had to face. Right? And I really was I was forced to take a radically new approach with my running. I wanted to speak on that in a little bit more detail and also have some conversation back and forth with the coaches. My first lesson from this story is that you never swim in the same stream twice. My college coach would always tell me that. Right? Because it's not the same river and you're not the same person.

Alex Ostberg [00:07:17]: Change is one of the only constant things in life, and I think it's really important that all all runners remember that because the skills and the attributes and the characteristics That amateurs need to get from 50% of their potential to 75% of their potential is not at all necessarily the same thing that an elite athlete needs to do to get from 90 to 95% of their Right? The tendency, like I was trying to do with brute force, is always to add more complexity to your life, to to to add more things in service of that goal. But sometimes you actually need to let go of some things, let go of habits that are no longer serving you. And so I would challenge the audience here. If you feel like you've plateaued or you've hit some kind of performance stealing after many failed attempts, you actually might be more likely to unlock a big jump in your a big leap in your performance by actually trying differently and not necessarily trying harder. Right? Like, you might always be able to work 10% harder, but but a different approach might actually give you 10 times the results. So that that was the 1st lesson. And I think when I was going through this period, I really had to ask myself the question, how could I have my life and my other passions work together in a more synergistic way to reach a sense of harmony. Right? Rather than thinking that, like, complexity was automatically the right answer, I decided to analyze where am I actually getting the most bang for my buck with these routines, how can I eliminate the things that no longer serve me? And rather than thinking that deprivation was the answer and sacrifice was the answer, I began to realize that maybe a unit of energy spent outside side of running might actually enhance my recovery, my performance if it brings me joy and happiness.

Alex Ostberg [00:08:45]: And the last thing I'll say on this story is that I would encourage everyone in the audience here, because this is something that runners have a tendency to do, avoid what I call deferred happiness syndrome, which is that Re rather than making your happiness contingent on an on achieving a goal, make it a point to practice experiencing joy along the journey. Right? There's a great quote that I heard from Lauren Fleischman when I was going through this journey of personal growth and development, and she's and now a really outspoken advocate for, For for female, athletes, especially young female runners, and she had this great quote, which was, what is the point of striving for goal in arranging your life around a singular pursuit if it feels miserable. Perfectionism sucks the joy and spontaneity out of everything. It is based on the idea that you're never enough, that you should never be satisfied. I used to think that if I let myself feel satisfied, I would settle. I've learned that this is categorically not true. You have to practice feeling satisfaction along the way if you also want to experience it at the highest levels on the other side of a goal. You can't just skip over that joy.

Alex Ostberg [00:09:46]: So I think I've done enough talking. That's my story. That's how I was able to learn from my failures and my mistakes, and I think ultimately it made me a better person.

Michael Hammond [00:09:55]: What a great story. I I I have to point out to the audience. I always have to you know, I know that Corey introduced you as an all American and stuff. I just wanna say that Pete that Alex has run 13/18, is that correct, For 5,000, I just wanna, like, make sure to put that out there that I think sometimes that, more like average day to day runners can maybe think that, like, really As people have none of these struggles, you know, like none of these types of mental games, these battles that that, that they might have before when they're stepping on the line for a race or when they're in training or when they're having doubts or whatnot. And it it's always neat to hear someone at such a high level. But I Alex, something that you had said that I I wanted to comment on briefly was When you talked about the one that sticks out to me is when you said, like, the 30 minutes of sleep thing. That was such a visceral thing to me, and and I can say that with confidence I think Andy and I have actually talked on a a different podcast about this before. I had a coach once who phrased it as he called it the razor's edge.

Michael Hammond [00:10:49]: He said that, like, if you imagine, you You know, a an Olympic athlete, the week of the Olympic Games, like, they are on the razor's edge. They are everything is, like, picture perfect, diet, Sleep. I mean, they are they're not they're not, like, making any sacrifice like, I'm sorry. They're making every sacrifice. Everything is perfect at that point. His my my coach's point of saying that was actually that you don't always wanna be on the razor's edge even if you are a pro athlete, even if you are someone who is trying to do this full time and and has really huge goals. You actually don't wanna be on that. And I I can I can sympathize with you so much, Alex, because What what happened to me I told Andy this once that that, I knew I was too close to that razor's edge or at least, like, too almost maybe not I don't want to say too dedicated because, like, you know, dedicated dedication's great? Discipline is great.

Michael Hammond [00:11:38]: Almost too neurotic About it at points, for me, the big sign was insomnia. That was my sign that I'm I'm I don't wanna say over again, I don't wanna say overdoing it or over disciplined or over dedicated. It's more like I need to relax. I need to On a Friday night, I need to, you know, sometimes when there's 2 choices and, Alex, you I'm I'm sure you face this, of, You know, tuck in at 9:30 PM or go have a couple beers with the friends, you know, in like, Some it's not as simple as the physiological, you know, difference between those 2, which one is, oh, alcohol, which is gonna affect your deep sleep and your REM, and and you're gonna you're gonna get a worse night, you're gonna get to bed later, whatever, and then you're gonna be a little dehydrated versus, like, tucking in at night. There's so much more to it than that. We're human beings. We're not Robots, you know, that's that's a that's definitely something I had to learn myself. I and I had that one marker, that insomnia.

Michael Hammond [00:12:34]: As soon as I started having either just difficulty falling asleep or that, You know, that classic 3 AM, you know, wake up and just just wide awake, can't go back to sleep. That's how I knew I was a little too close to that edge. I I need to just, like, chill out, which which sometimes in and of itself can become like a neurotic thing where you're constantly thinking about, like, I'm only doing this because I know that I need to chill out, because I know I need to get sleep. So it just can become a vicious cycle. I think I I just couldn't Could not, like, sympathize more with what you talked about with, that 30 minutes of sleep being, like, so neurotic about that. Such an easy thing to do and yet can get you in a lot of trouble because, again, we're not these robots. We have minds and we have all these things going on in our lives that that we need to take care of as well. We gotta take care of our mentality just as much as our our bodies as well.

Alex Ostberg [00:13:22]: Yeah. No. Thank you, Michael. I think like I said, I think there's a there's typically a sort of personality traits that a lot of elite runners share, and I think we both went through that at the same point in time. I think there's this tendency to assume that that the adaptation process to training can just be boiled down to, like, some type of math equation, right, or some type of formula, And that, like, the inputs and the outputs are, like, you're able to optimize this in a certain way to get the desired outcome. But, like like you said, there's so much more nuance than that. Like Like, the human body is this complex integrated, it's I mean, it's I was gonna say machine, but it's not even a machine. It's it's so much more than that.

Alex Ostberg [00:13:55]: It's harder to predict. It's harder to harness it. And and to your point, like, sometimes just like going out and, like, getting rid of, like just taking that neurotic edge off a little bit and going out and experiencing something fun and joyful where you can detach from it a little bit is great. And that doesn't mean that you're giving up on it entirely and that you're settling. Right? It means that you can attach and then reapply your efforts and then kinda have this fluctuation between those 2 things to to kinda toggle back and forth between periods of intense focus and then intense relaxation. And I think finding that balance is really important.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:14:24]: Yeah. I think, very much in the same sense of, like, the sleeping thing and the insomnia, it's I would get like, if I didn't do I would have these, like, set things that I had to do, and it sounds kinda similar to the the sleeping, needing to go to bed. And then if I if I didn't do that, like, if I if I didn't, Maybe I did stay out too long or I was on my feet too long. It would just be, like, this anxiety blanket that I just, like, wrap over myself, and I could not think about anything else. Couldn't enjoy anything else because all I could think about was this thing that I was doing that was going to ruin my performance, and I would not run well. And that was kind of how I experienced it. I don't know about you guys, but, I think the I had the same thing happen, I think, my last year in college. I was Hoping to qualify for nationals in both the 10 and the 5, and all I had qualified for the 10 and 2 years prior.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:15:15]: So this year, I was like, let me do both, and I Just every workout, every run I did, I was like, was that too fast or too slow? And I was extra overanalyzing and stressing about every little thing, and then it just blew up at me. So I I feel like that that's definitely how I experienced those kind of scenarios, which just, like, the anxiety around it made it not fun, And I couldn't stop thinking about them, so like that. Like, I don't know if that's what happened to you and Michael, but that would keep me up, just thinking about the mistakes that I made and the things I shouldn't have done. Yeah. And that was super ineffective. So

Michael Hammond [00:15:49]: yeah. Definitely. And I I think I can I can kinda, like, thread all these together, and I bet you guys I have a feeling you guys will agree That so much of it is kind of that difference of living in the moment, living in the present, versus constantly living in the future? You know, Alex, you talked about that concept of delayed delayed happiness, I think I think it was, or, like, like, you know, where you, like, offset it. Oh, once I have this, once I do this, Andy, once I make it in the 10 and the 5, then I'll be happy. But for now, I I can't I haven't, like, earned happiness in a way. I think there's The the 2 big threads here I see is, 1, that which is like that I think that that very, like, high achieving, you know, dedicated people tend to have that difficulty of being in the present at any given time, which which again can create kind of a neurosis on its own. And the other one is, you know, I none of us are necessarily along these lines, but Something you see that's really interesting with, like, high level pro athletes in in other sports is, you know, you'll have some high level pro athlete, and I I'm being dead serious here, who will, like, Torpedo his life or, like, will get arrested for something like that or or or something along those lines. And it's one of those things where it's very easy to look at that.

Michael Hammond [00:16:55]: That idiot. Oh my god. What a fool. And I'm not saying that anything they did is right. I'm not defending I'm not condoning it. It's just that there is that level of, I think someone is under so much pressure, and there's such a tremendous amount of, of that anxiety within somebody like that That you almost again, not condoning, but almost understand where somebody, you know, goes on a a a a crazy bender or or, like, Gets themselves into a little bit of trouble or just I don't know. Like, drug addiction is a common one with, like, with former athletes and stuff like that where There's it it I think there's other aspects to it too, but I definitely think a big one is this, where you're talking about just chasing this this thing. And it's almost like once you either don't have it or or even if you get it, then you're like, what do I do now? I I there's a lot of different threads I can see here that I'm I'm hearing from you guys that, that that I just can't help but but cut kinda place those threads together with that delayed happiness concept.

Michael Hammond [00:17:51]: I'm so glad Alex said that, because it's it's such a fascinating thing, and I I can like I said, I I said this before, but I just can't, like, empathize with that anymore than than I do. It's it's crazy how how similar that sounds to thoughts that have gone through my own head.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:18:04]: Yeah. Great.

Cory Nagler [00:18:06]: Alex, just before we move on, I'm I'm curious, for yourself having gone through this, what you think are some of those signs that you are kind of threading that needle a little bit? How do you how do you kinda monitor and make sure that you're not still going through that deferred happiness trap?

Alex Ostberg [00:18:21]: I think for me, it was a well, 1st and foremost, it's about self awareness. Right? I think that a lot of times, if you're just Pressing forward, and you're you're pursuing a goal at the expense of everything else. A lot of times people have just never actually taken the the chance to pause, Reflect on what they're at, what they're thinking, what they're feeling, and then evaluating. Like, just taking stock of where they are in their life. Right? How how do all of their different passions In their life, are they are they working together harmoniously? Are they working together in a way that's really obsessive and harmful? And so I think self awareness is always the first step. The second thing for me was literally just like putting things on the schedule where, like, just like just like fun, like, social events that I wanted to do and just being like, I'm making the decision ahead of time. I'm not gonna second guess it. I'm just gonna go out.

Alex Ostberg [00:19:07]: I'm gonna, like, do this or that with my friends. I'm gonna go go like, go on this vacation. And I was just trying to, like, create the sense of, like, guilt foot almost like guilt free, like, pleasure where I was like, okay. I've already made the decision. Like, I'm not gonna second guess it in the moment. And and to me, like, that was that was kinda how I took that, how I kinda made that transition from the neuroticism more to the harmonious pursuit of it. But I will say as as many people would probably say, it did kinda take me getting to rock bottom for me to reevaluate my priorities. And I wanna be careful about saying rock bottom.

Alex Ostberg [00:19:39]: It wasn't an injury. I recovered from it, I'm okay. It wasn't a catastrophic injury. But it was tough. It was tough to deal with at the time. And I think it it it really took That much adversity for it to shuffle my priorities around enough and for me to ask those difficult questions that I wasn't otherwise willing to ask myself

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Cory Nagler [00:22:25]: Yeah. I love that prioritizing and putting it on the calendar. I think for myself as a runner, and I think a lot of type a personality runners can relate. If that runs on the calendar, I'm sticking to it, and it's It's important to be that way sometimes with your social activities or other things that you really need to to have that balance and not be constantly threading a needle.

Alex Ostberg [00:22:41]: Definitely, I agree.

Cory Nagler [00:22:43]: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Alex. Andy, I'm excited to hear from you next.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:22:49]: Yeah. I feel like we I I there could be an entire podcast if we just took like, just went through my entire running career, and we could just pick it with all the mistakes, because it's been a it's been a my I'd they'd say my career has been pretty much a roller coaster, in terms of how it's Gone. And, you know, my freshman year running full time, going from being a soccer player to and a runner to just a runner, That was a learning experience in and of itself, but I think most of it boils down to, for me, just living in the extremes. I I was always in when I was younger, always wanted to win everything to the extent that I was probably a little bit of a brat. When I would play games or when I'd play soccer and I wanted to play, I didn't wanna come out. I just wanted to be playing. I wanted to win, and that was, like, so important to me. And so When running is a sport that's all your own, you you you kinda have that control to an extent.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:23:45]: Like, you can't force you cannot force the training to work and the way that you want it to work. And so my freshman year, you know, my coach was like, you you gotta you gotta slow down to speed up. And he he told me that the end of the year because I think it was, like, 2 weeks into the season in cross country. I was running heavy run as hard as I could. Easy runs, workouts, I was win I was like, I'm gonna win. I'm gonna get to the I'm gonna Win this workout, all that kind of stuff, and it it only lasted 2 weeks that fresh my freshman year. And so That's kind of been a really big theme, and it's something that I find that I have had to relearn over and over and over again. I think the biggest problem is the Manifestation of that needing to be perfect and how to approach training in that way.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:24:29]: And I, you know, I think in some ways, a collegiate environment can have that That especially, I think it maybe is getting a little bit better, but a d one college environment can kind of have that effect on on people who are a little bit perfectionistic and are competitive and really want to succeed that it can have some some of it, an effect where it takes over a little bit. And so, you know, Going through college, I had, eating issues, eating disorder problems, but I was still running well. And so I was eating, you know, just enough to survive, not survive, but just enough to be able to, be healthy and not get injured and all of that stuff, but not enough to support, you know, really substantial, you know, health. You know? Like, I wasn't I didn't have a cycle through my entire collegiate career after my freshman year. So, like, that kind of stuff was going on, but I, you know, I I looked healthy. My body type is bigger than maybe some of the other runners just genetically. And so me being thin, I looked like a lot of my competitors, and so that was a big problem. And and, again, it was just me pushing to the extremes on things to be perfect, to get faster, to get that extra edge, try to just try to you know, the but I was so fixated on the the weight issue that it really interfered with my training overall.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:25:42]: And so when I when I finally actually, no. I I'd say, when I graduated college, Going into, you know, can I run post collegially? And like I alluded to with Alex's story, I had a terrible Last meet of my collegiate career, I did not make it to nationals, so my career was kinda just cut short, in a sense or that's how I felt. I actually tried to throw my shoes away After the races at regionals, I legitimately tried to put them in the trash, and my mom pulled them back out. And so it was, Again, just like living in the extremes of, like, if I'm not getting what I wanna get out of this, then it's just we stop. We just don't do it at all. Over, done with. And so, but I think the biggest thing that the biggest learning experience I kinda finally went through was, you know, I overtrained twice. Once going into the my my one and only so far, marathon Olympic trials.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:26:35]: That was my 1st marathon. Did not finish it. And then, going forward a few years from that, still not taking the time To listen to my body and pause when I needed to pause, because I overtrained again in in another training block, and so I had to learn. And I think this is something a lot of Runners don't really recognize a lot of times is how much of the stress falls in the same bucket. So, you know, the physical my training had changed, But, you know, when I was managing that better and my fueling had changed, so I was managing that better, but I wasn't managing the other stressors that were coming in, And, I wasn't listening to my body when it was, you know, fighting me because I was so fixated on needing to reach this endpoint, which was qualifying for the 2020 trials. And so that was it was so at the forefront of everything that I just kept pushing it, pushing it, pushing it. And I was like, I'm doing everything right. I'm trying to do everything right, and it Kept getting worse and worse.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:27:33]: And I essentially, like Alex said, I kinda had to hit rock bottom a little bit. 2020, I Was having a lot of health issues, ended up getting a stress fracture halfway through, a sacral stress fracture halfway through, which, was a relief. And so that's not something we wanna in running. We don't wanna get to a point where injuries are relieving to us to make us stop. And so that kind of made me made me stop. And, Once I was building back from that and I was still having the health issues, that was when I finally was like, let's I got started working with doctor, and we were like, like, wow. I take 3 months off completely. No.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:28:09]: Not even a lot of cross training, all of that stuff, and it all boils down to the fact that I just wasn't letting myself have Balance or or restoration when I needed it. I was listening to what my body needed, and I was just going hard, hard, hard. So, Again, I needed to slow down to speed up. So it's been kind of an overarching theme for my entire training has been that, and I think, you know, a lot of runners, like I said, you know, I I had my my cousin died before a race that I was supposed to run, and I didn't give myself space on that. So the mental emotional stress was there. And then, you know, between all this stuff that was going on, I just never never slowed down. And so I think, we we all have stuff going on in our lives. I know a lot of people that work with the Runner connect are managing you know, having kids and and families and other things going on that it's it can be we don't necessarily always relate those to our training, but It's so impactful, those other things outside of running, so we have to be able to kinda separate ourselves at times and, give ourselves space.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:29:08]: That's the biggest thing I think I learned from it was, you know, balance and space. When I first started back into this training block For this or I guess it was 2021 when I was building up after that 3 month break. I had a race, my 1st race in the calendar, and I was like, you know what? I'm gonna drink a glass of wine Before the the night before because that was one of those things that had been a really big sticking point was, like, the the diet And the fueling and all the little things being perfect before race, and I was like, I need to intercept some of these things and, you know, whatever. I'm gonna try to drink a glass of wine, and if I'm not if I don't die tomorrow, then, like, great. That's what I needed to learn from the situation. So I actually did that, and, you know, it worked out fine, but I also was like, probably won't glass of wine before another race because I, was a little dehydrated. But, you know, it was just kind of, like, chipping away at some of the things that I These long held beliefs of that I needed to do perfectly to be to be fast and to to reach my goals, and, so now, you know, training's been much better. I'm not, you know, over exercising, over training, over any of those things.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:30:13]: So, yeah. That was a lot.

Michael Hammond [00:30:16]: No. No. No. That that was great. That it definitely hits, you know, when it when when Corey sent the prompt of, like, biggest training mistakes, I'm sure you guys were similar, I was like, Where do I begin? Like, Corey, how how much time you got? And and I'll and I'll tell you, I would say my big runner-up. I I wrote down, like, 3 big ones, and my my runner-up, the one I was like, I really almost should do this one, was not not like separating in a way, like, my running health and my real health, You know, I I think that's something that that really hits home with me with with what you said about, when you're especially when you're training at a extremely high level, There there's you know, they they say something where, like, just because you're fast doesn't necessarily mean you're healthy. And, I mean, I think I know you can you can speak to that from a very personal level as a female. But but with anyone, there's there's so many so many, like, issues that can go on with somebody where, you know, your Your health like, you're you're running fast.

Michael Hammond [00:31:08]: You're running super, super fast, and yet your body is not in a in a healthy state whatsoever. I think that that's something that can happen a lot. And then it can also be Kinda confusing because, you know, let's be honest, when you're training a lot, when you're running high volume and and doing all these hard workouts and stuff, There's an element of breakdown and stuff that's that is normal, quote unquote, you know. And how do you distinguish between that and what is abnormal and what is what is unhealthy. If someone is either sedentary or maybe just, like, jogs, 20 minutes a day or something like that, if they get, like, this crazy excessive Exhaustion. There's probably something wrong. There's probably something going on. They're not sleeping enough or or what have you.

Michael Hammond [00:31:47]: So with with an athlete, it can be really difficult. And this is something that I I would say I'm pretty passionate about on the, not necessarily in the elite circles, but more in the general running circles is is Having people connect those 2 things, running health and and real health, as much as possible. I never wanna see running be, Like an unhealthy thing for somebody. You know? Like, what what an awful thing. Again, if people who are training to win an Olympic medal, you know, hey, there there are sacrifices that are made. It it kinda is what it is. But for for your average person, I love to see, like, running and health go hand in hand. I believe they can.

Michael Hammond [00:32:23]: I know that running a marathon is not certainly a healthy thing, but there certainly are, like, habits and and things that you can do to to to connect those 2 things and make those be, you know, 1 and the same. So yeah. Andy, believe me, I I definitely you know, obviously, we've had very different experiences and and certainly, you as a female have had unique experiences yourself, But I can definitely say that that's something I can empathize with because, definitely had times I mean, you know, we all take these risks that Do these things that maybe would not necessarily be healthy things in order to achieve this this goal, and and maybe there's a healthy level of that to a degree with, like, that obsession as we talk about, that's just kinda what it takes sometimes, but but there's definitely some that was one of my big mistakes I felt too was just, like, not taking care of Your real health, you know, kind of at expense at the expense of, or your your real health at the expense of your running health.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:33:13]: Yeah. When I when I ran a lot of my PRs, I was Generally, pretty healthy. I was I wasn't having a lot of health issues besides the fact that I wasn't didn't have a menstrual cycle, But I was getting away with it, which is, like, part of the big part of the problem there. But, you know, I would that's where one of those lulls came into play where it was like, well, I'm Performing, I would have been eating more. So maybe this is just, you know, my you know, I just you kinda just get Used to thinking that's your your normal, but, you know, I ran really well because I maybe because I was feeling a little bit more, but my body hadn't caught up to the The fact that it needed more. And so it's it's so interesting now looking back at all of it. Like, I would never wanna go back to that point and have that be the, you know, I would I would wanna be able to say I was healthy fully when I ran all my PRs, and I don't see any reason why I can't still do that, if I can just get healthy all the way. But, yeah, it's it's kind of just like when I look back at that that time frame, it's like I I was still not super happy, and I think that's a really big sticking point that I I've thought now is that I was running fast, but I wasn't mentally healthy, which is where a lot of that dysfunction came from.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:34:25]: And so being able to be mentally healthy is going to be the turning point for all of that kind of Like, you know, I had stopped running too fast on easy runs. I'd really started to just embrace running slow. So I started doing some things right, but I wasn't Embracing everything right, and it was mostly because of a mental mental health issue that I was just, you know, lingering. And so, Yeah. You have to be mentally, physically, you know, healthy all around for it to be really, really work well. So,

Cory Nagler [00:34:57]: Yeah. Andy, I'm so glad you brought in this happiness piece. I myself have even dealt with this a little bit too, the the under fueling and taking running to just Absolute extremes. And the only reason that I haven't chosen that for my own story is just because there's not enough time in a podcast to fit that all in. There's so many mistakes to wrap up there. Yeah, but I think I had a coach one time, Michael, you mentioned marathon running isn't always the healthiest thing. But he told me if you want to be healthy, Go ahead and run for 20 minutes, 3, maybe 4 times a week. And this was a coach who was prescribing that we run way more, so, I took that to heart knowing I was doing that.

Cory Nagler [00:35:29]: But, also personally I found as I was going through these struggles, separating or recognizing both the running health and your personal health, which I think Michael touched on is So important. I I think there there's 3 pieces there that kind of both doctors and coaches had to tell me at that time. One being that it doesn't matter how fit you are. If you don't look your own health, if you're stressed and not sleeping well, then you're still not healthy. The 2nd piece is, If you're not happy then who really cares? What's the point in all of this? Because at the end of the day, you're not a professional. Maybe some of you Our our borderline semi professional, but I certainly was never gonna get to that point. But then the the last point is also no matter how fit you are, like that stuff is gonna up with you. So as much as you can try, you're never gonna be able to perfectly separate kinda that running fitness from your your individual health.

Michael Hammond [00:36:21]: Yeah. I I think something I'm so glad Andy brought up and, Corey, you just touched on just now was the mental health standpoint. And I think if I can say one thing, I think that you know, we said that marathon okay. Running a marathon may not necessarily be a healthy thing. If you truly if health is the only object, like pure physical Optimization, then, yeah, you're right. Yeah. Probably go run 20 or 30 minutes, 3 to 4 days a week, do a little bit of strength training, do some stretching and stuff, and, yeah, you're you're gonna be well. I think the I said that, you know, it I it's funny how we're able to connect so many of these things.

Michael Hammond [00:36:51]: So much of the of what's going on here, I think, is that mental side, and that's that, as we said, humans are not Robots. We don't just need you know, we're not this this car engine that just needs this this certain type of tune up and certain type of oil and then it runs just fine. I think that what the other aspect that we need, and this is why I think something like a marathon can actually be a very healthy thing, is I think sometimes people need, Like, like, they need, like, a journey. You know? Like, people I I think there's something so much I feel like is missing from a lot of people. I think running my theory is that running fills this gap for a lot of people is that we need you know, it's like we need a journey. You know, life, from so many of us, I'm not saying it's easy by any stretch, but I'm saying that in a sense, You know, modern society is a very a relatively comfortable place and a and a relatively simple, like, linear thing Without necessarily a journey, without necessarily, like, something to embark upon, something to challenge yourself with, a a way to truly grow as an individual, and that's where I think that Stuff like running can really kinda fill that gap. Even if we don't think of it that way, I can't think it can kinda fill that gap and thus, even though maybe it's not the ideal Physical thing that like, from that perfect physical optimization health thing, it it fulfills that other part, which is so so important, you know. Physical and mental health are so incredibly important things, and I I don't believe that those are all about that optimization.

Michael Hammond [00:38:09]: Sometimes doing something that's not as optimal, I think, can be, You know, can be the more the more optimal thing to do in a way. Kinda kinda to not be optimal, that can be the actually the more optimal thing to do because you gotta balance those 2 things out.

Cory Nagler [00:38:24]: Awesome. Thanks, Michael. And Andy, yes. I think those were so important topics both on the running piece, but to connect that in with the mental health, I think, You know, even if you're listening and you're not a runner, those are great things to keep in mind in your in your personal life if you're balancing it with any other, Hobby that ultimately at the end of the day, I think even if you are a pro running coach, you probably have other other Social and and work obligations that you have to balance with that. So, thanks for sharing. And Michael, I'll pass it over to you. Do you wanna tell us about your number 1 training mistake now that you've told us your number 2?

Michael Hammond [00:39:03]: I'd I'd love to. Like I said, I as soon as you asked that question, I was like, oh, boy, And you're you're opening a can of worms. Yeah. I I would say my my biggest mistake, and I think this will be I I noticed similar threads between Alex and Andy's, and I think this one will have similar threads with their stories too, and that's that I feel that my biggest mistake was that I I trained like the runner that I wanted to be, not the runner that I was. And and that's that may sound funny. I'll I'll try to explain it as best I can. For context, you know, I ran my my fastest 1500 meter time was 337, is which is a very solid time. I think in that day you know, I ran it was funny.

Michael Hammond [00:39:38]: I kinda ran it in sort of this off little off the beaten path type race. I I think I would think if you put me in you I know every runner says this, oh, if the conditions would have been whatever, I I would have run so fast. But, like, yeah, you put me in, like, diamond league, you know, crazy Pacers and stuff. I think I was probably ready for about 335 or so that day, if I if I had to say it, something like that. I was training like I wanted to be a 3:30 guy. Like, I wanted to Make the Olympic team, make the Olympic final. You know, I I really had dreams of winning a medal. I know that might sound that might sound insane, you know, based on kinda, like, where I ended up being and and what I ended up running, but that that's what was in my head, man.

Michael Hammond [00:40:13]: That's that was those were my goals. You know? Like Alex said, he wanted to be an NCAA champion in college even though, You know, maybe it's like even if you've only done something that that maybe even touches on that, at the same time, when you're at that level, you have big goals, and and that's how I felt. So I think the the Problem was I was training like that too, if if that makes sense. Basically, something that we preach at runners connect So often is to for people to train by their current fitness versus their goal. You know, I I love giving people, like, the the really stupid extremes. I I have an economics degree. I think it comes from, like like, all that type of stuff where you do these extreme comparisons where, like, I'll tell somebody who just ran a 3:30 marathon. I'll say, let's say you decide all of a sudden that you wanna run 2 30 in the marathon in your next race in 4 months.

Michael Hammond [00:40:58]: Are you gonna start doing 2 30 marathon pace workouts? Of course not. Like, that's that seems preposterous. That seems silly to to all of a sudden decide that if you're if you just ran 3:30 and you start doing 3 20 pace workouts, that's every bit as ridiculous as as running 2 30 pace workouts. You have to train as the runner you are, and I think it doesn't just for me, it didn't just have to do with necessarily paces. It's not like I was going out in workouts and being like, okay. I wanna run this time. I gotta run these workouts. Thankfully, I had coaches that were smarter than that.

Michael Hammond [00:41:26]: But I think what it did and and this is where I can really relate back to something that Alex had said is that, I I think I took too many risks. I think I think that, when you when you look at kinda like the trajectory of your running, this is This is really what I found myself looking at at at certain points was, you're looking at your progression, and you're having this, like it's never linear. Right? It's always has its ups and downs, but it's kinda moving in a generally Generally up into the right, you know, way ideally. And some again, you have your peaks, you have your valleys. But what what I look at is, like, okay, where I wanna where I this is where I'm going. I'm along this path where I wanna be is a little bit higher and a little bit more to the right than the trajectory that I'm on. What that requires is an inflection point. Like, you need an inflection.

Michael Hammond [00:42:12]: If you're if you're along this trajectory and your trajectory is not going to get you to that where that goal goes in time. You need that graph literally needs an inflection point. That takes risks. There's things that you have to do. Alex said that, you know, when he when he got to UNC, he kinda tried to do you know, just go to that next he wanted to go to that next level, and so he tried to do what it took. That also comes with with risks of of running maybe a little bit more volume than you really should be running, maybe doing, you know, ripping those workouts a little bit harder than you really need to be doing. And I just feel that I it's it's a bit I wouldn't necessarily call it a necessarily regret because it's it's something that, like, I don't look at that and I I don't say I'm not proud of that, because eventually if you have big goals and you want to dream big, you have to go after that. That just kind of is what it is.

Michael Hammond [00:42:55]: And yet I look back, and I'm like, man, like, you know, how how good could you have been if you just trained smart and, like and accepted that there was only gonna be this this slow, steady progression rather than insisting on finding that inflection point, finding that big, like, all of a sudden, you know, moving up because, again, that can lead to anytime you take a risk like that with running, that can lead to injuries, that can lead to overtraining, that can lead to All sorts of problems. You know? And so I think, yes, it's good to dream. It's good to have that, like, professional mentality at when you're at that level, and yet And yet you need to, like, be grounded in a way in terms of accepting kinda where you are each day. I remember reading, I remember reading that Nick Simmons would famously Like, other teammates would get, like, fresh I think it was actually Lauren Fleischman that I I read said this, bringing her back into it. But I think she said that one time, Nick Nick would only change one thing every year. Only one thing. That's it. And this is a guy who, again, won a world silver medal, Was in 5th in that all you know, the greatest 800 meter race of all time in 2012, the 2012 Olympics.

Michael Hammond [00:44:02]: But That's what he would do. He would only change one thing each year, and which seems crazy when you're at that level and you're trying to win a gold medal. It's like You feel like you need to do everything and do just do all this crazy stuff, and yet he's like, nope. I'm good. I'm just gonna change one little thing. Everything else is gonna be the same, and it led to this, like, Incredible progression and and fewer injuries and stuff like that. So I I think that of the many, many, many mistakes that I made in my running career, I can I think I I really settled on that one being the the big, like, overarching one? You know, Andy tried said she tried to find, like, an overarching theme to to kind of her the mistakes that she did make, And and above all else, that's how I feel is I I I trained and, like, behaved in a way like the runner that I wanted to be, and I know that sounds like a good thing, but it just I think it, it just led to, like, a lot of risk taking that maybe was a little bit excessive, and and again, also led to some neurosis, and and On that mental health side of things, definitely some some challenges there. I think that I could've struck that balance a lot better.

Michael Hammond [00:45:02]: Know, with with the wisdom that I have now at being a bit older, I I think I could have struck that balance a lot better and and ultimately had a better career for it.

Alex Ostberg [00:45:10]: Michael, I think that's an excellent point, and and that really resonated with me. While you were talking, you know, I was thinking about, you know, why do we all fall victim to these these similar traps? Right? Like, we're we're all kinda making some more mistakes. And I think it's just embedded in human psychology. Right? That, like, our ambition is always going to outpace our ability to feel satisfied. Right? Like, you're always gonna want a little bit more than what you currently have. That's just more or less the human condition. And how I see that manifest itself is that so many times people don't accept where they're at in training and they don't train where they're at today. Right? Like, I always tell athletes, like, you have forward facing timeline and a backward facing timeline.

Alex Ostberg [00:45:47]: And everyone always wants to start with a goal in mind, which is a good thing to do to roughly know directionally that you're moving in the right, know, you're going in the right direction. However, you actually have to in order to get to the goal where you wanna go, you have to accept where you're at today and train from where you're at. You just can't take shortcuts when it comes to physiology. Right? Like, biology has these natural time horizons that require adaptation to occur, and you can't rush that process. And so often what I see with athletes is they actually they bend their training around a race. Because they'll find a goal race and then they'll say, okay. I'm gonna do whatever it takes to that race in this type of shape. And and I think another to bring in another psychological concept, we all are fall victim to this thing called the planning fallacy, right, we always think we can accomplish more work in a certain amount of time than than what is actually possible.

Alex Ostberg [00:46:33]: Right? Like, I've heard college coaches say that in a cross country season, which typically lasts about 3 months, They try to squeeze 14 weeks of training into a 9 week block. Right? And like the same thing goes for like, I don't know, any any home renovation project that's ever existed, any construction project. Everyone always is like, yeah, we can get this done in 6 months. Lo and behold, it takes a year. Right? Because like we're we always think that we're the exception to the rule, But the rule actually tends to be true 99% of the time. We just think we're not gonna be susceptible to it. And so I I really think what this Calls into question is that there's really a difference between the map and the territory. And I brought this up with Corey when we were talking about, Kumar, and his, Amazing running later into life.

Alex Ostberg [00:47:13]: He's, you know, 75 and and crushing marathons, running age grade at 243, Boston qualifiers, all that. And there's this illusion, I think, of the perfect build up. Right? Like, you you think that, you know, you have this vision. You you map it all out. It looks pretty on an Excel sheet. But the reality is, like, that's just the map. Right? And the territory might look very, very different when you're actually on the ground. You encounter those hazards.

Alex Ostberg [00:47:35]: You have to adjust. You have to deviate from the plan. You have to make calls some audibles. And I think so many people forget that the map and the territory are not the same things. And the only thing that's certain about a plan is that you have to plan for it not going according to plan. Right? And so I think taking all these things into consideration, this is why it's So valuable to have a coach because it gets you out of your own head. You can externalize all of these thoughts, and then they can help, you know, make some of these difficult decisions for you and help you point out where you do have these cognitive biases, right, where there might be gaps in your thinking or blind spots. And that's why, personally, I find it so helpful work with the coach because they can really help you see more clearly when when the the road ahead might actually be a little bit foggy.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:48:14]: Yeah. What's funny is that I remember, Michael. What I remember in college, it was I would get excited when I would outrun The paces that my coach gave me, I don't know about you guys, but that was the I remember being like, oh, I had a great day. Ran faster than the the paces Laurie gave me. You know, it was like that was how I gauged off the workout was good or not. It was like, okay. I exceeded. And I I feel like I do that Still to some extent, and I have to still reel myself back in and that's what happened, I think, this past fall not this past fall.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:48:47]: Last year, last fall, I was really I was feeling really good, and I was running kind of faster than the pace is a little bit. And I was just like, man, I'm in such good shape, and then I was injured weeks later. But, yeah, I feel like that's kind of I felt like I was I never knew what shape I was in. I never was like, I think I'm in this shape. I was always like, yes, I was faster and whatever Laurie says goes on race day. So I kind of was, like, not thinking forward of, like, what does this pace equate to? It was always just Let me just be faster, and and that'll that means I'm doing a good thing.

Michael Hammond [00:49:21]: So And and you thought you were gonna be the exception to that rule of of, you know, training too fast. Yeah. Alex, it's something that I thought of when you were talking about like the, the concept of how important it is to get a coach is that, you know, Oftentimes not oftentimes, all the time, the way we look at things with ourselves versus the way we look at things conceptually is so different. Like if you look at, Alex, if you were to read about a 13, 18, 5000 meter runner who wants to run 1305, and I bet you could design almost like the perfect plan for that person on like a 2 year timeframe of like, this is what you need to do, this is what you need to do, and yet If you went and did it yourself, it would have all the you know, you'd be like, Well, no, I need to do this. Like, I need to do, you know, x and y and z. And it reminds me of, That psychological that psychology concept of, like, motivations or like internal versus external factors. Know, when we have when something goes wrong for ourselves, we typically tend to blame external factors like the environment or or other people or whatever. When things go wrong with other people, we tend to blame internal factors for for them.

Michael Hammond [00:50:32]: You know, we say, oh, they're you know, in running a classic one that I think gets thrown around a lot, especially with with younger athletes, is that they're not tough enough or something like that. Like like it's easy for for people to look at someone and say they're not trying hard enough or they're not working hard in reality they're probably working their tail off or they're probably running as hard as they can. It's so easy to put those like external factors on ourselves and yet like to excuse ourselves in a way, and yet to ourselves in a way and yet to like be too harsh and too critical with other people. So I think there's maybe a coach is so good at being able to find like the balance and and kinda learn who how that person works and and and also be able to look at it from that one, like, 1 filter removed you know, 1 filter added, I should say. With us, it's like this raw thing in front of us, our own career, our own progression, our own trajectory, And yet for the coach, they have the added filter of obviously with their expertise and stuff, but there's just the fact that they're a different set of eyes, I think can be Just such a powerful thing and certainly is important with all the stuff we're talking about with the fact that we, you know, of the some of the people listening are probably like, man, these guys are idiots. Like, these these these guys and their internal, you know, factors that cause all their problems, but, like, you know, the injuries and the overtraining and the, you know, all these big setbacks and and the neuroticism and and all these connecting threads between us, I think it's it's very interesting that you're right, that like It's like it's like a people thing, you know. Working with with the right people is is something that can so often help to to alleviate so many of these things.

Cory Nagler [00:52:02]: Michael, I I love that your comment on this was people listening must be thinking that you're idiots because I've I've intentionally brought together a group of Extremely talented runners, professional running coaches to share their mistakes, and yet it really does go to show that there's always more that we can learn in the sport.

Michael Hammond [00:52:20]: Always. That's I'm telling you. That's why I said that thing earlier about, like, really, you know, relaying to people just how fast, like, someone like Alex is because so so easy, man, to watch people Who who run what maybe not even professionals, but just like the guy who wins your local who won your local turkey trot last week, and it might seem so easy and so effortless and so I used to have people, I used to have people tell me before races that they thought I I didn't look nervous at all. They were just like they were like, I don't know how you how do you do it? You you literally look like you and I was like, are you kidding me? Like, there's like a there's like a An epic battle going on inside of my brain right now. You have no idea. Like, the people truly, people thought. They were like they were shocked If I told them that, that I was actually having doubts and having, you know, having to reassure myself, blah blah blah, they were they were shocked when I said that because they said I looked just Totally cool and confident. I was like, man, I I need to win an Oscar.

Michael Hammond [00:53:13]: Like, this that's a hell of an act right there. So it I do think it's important, though, for people to hear. I think, Especially, let's be honest, like, not to go on a tangent here, but man, we're in, like, the Instagram and social media era where everybody's just making themselves look so Perfect. And it's it's a frustrating thing actually in running right now because, man, I running running is booming. Right? Running is getting big. And the the the especially one that's that's frustrating is There's a lot of, like, people that are into, like used to be into, like, bodybuilding and maybe CrossFit and stuff. No problem with those. I think they're great.

Michael Hammond [00:53:44]: Are all of a sudden getting into running and kinda bringing a lot of that type of mentality over to running of, like, everything looks so perfect, everything looks so great, and it's like, man, I'm looking for the raw person, the person who's willing to talk about the crap, you know, the just how how rough it can be sometimes. Times. It's when I said earlier that progression's never linear, man, it's quite the opposite of linear. Peaks and valleys is what makes up the road of any runner, good, bad, elite, Sub Elite, back of the pack, whatever it is, it's never gonna be linear. I think that I I'm glad to hear from these 2 as well that That, that their progressions were as fast as they've run, as as accomplished as they are, seeing people that had these huge doubts and problems and and Overarching themes that that were negative in a way to the running. I think I hope that people take that in a positive way to say, like, wow, I'm not this you know, I'm not weak or I'm not mentally I I don't need, like, a mental toughness thing or whatever. I just I'm human just like they are.

Cory Nagler [00:54:44]: Yeah. Well, Michael, I have to say you do come across as common collected, but I appreciate that you're still willing to talk about the crap or when things don't go well.

Michael Hammond [00:54:52]: Oh, before this podcast, man, I was like, I was about to, like you know, I I was I was terrified. I was so nervous. No. I'm just kidding. Yeah. But it's I it it was so and I'm telling you, I can't say that enough. And and I I know it sounds like I'm almost on myself, it's quite the opposite. I really, like I said, I was having all these doubts and and all these these things going through the head.

Michael Hammond [00:55:08]: I'm sure that you 2 have done the same, where you're just like, You're on that starting line, man. It's a war in your head. It's a war, and you got to try to win it. It's a mental battle. I think that's why it's such a great thing. Running can build such Incredible resilience and and and mental discipline to be able to, like, drown out those negative voices, man, and because we all have them. Nobody doesn't have them. Again, people act They don't.

Michael Hammond [00:55:30]: But we all have them, and and and that's about working out working out on your own. It's kind of like your own internal battle that I think is really important to fight. So

Alex Ostberg [00:55:38]: If I could just add 1 thing, Michael, to your point familiar. I do I do think it's so important to humanize your heroes, right, And to realize that they're imperfect too. I mean, I'm friends with several people who have made Olympic teams, and I know firsthand that they don't jump out of bed every morning excited to run every single day. Right? Like, That motivation is perishable. Like, it come it comes and it goes, but they have systems in place to make sure that they can get the work done regardless. And I also wanna say too that I think we sometimes over index on, like, The breakthroughs that happen because, like, people, again, are pushing these narratives through or and these pictures through social media, through through Instagram, Twitter, so on and so forth. And everyone always looks at the breakthrough moment and looks at that snapshot of success, but they don't look at everything that came before that. Right? And the reality is that trying and struggling Looks a lot like incompetence right up until the moment that it looks like success.

Alex Ostberg [00:56:26]: And all we do typically is look at the moment, it looks like success, but we don't see everything that came before it.

Michael Hammond [00:56:31]: Yeah. No doubt. No doubt. That's a good point.

Cory Nagler [00:56:34]: Yeah. I I love all these profound lessons which sets up Perfectly because as much as I am absolutely not a professional running coach, I do want to quickly tell my story, which is Nowhere near as profound and capitalizes on that topic of stupidity we brought up earlier. Because I think it is important to come back to even those of us who are Not professional runners, or especially those who are not professional runners are definitely making mistakes. So mine actually comes running a race in, For those who are familiar with Ontario up in Canada, Ottawa. And this race happens every May, and it's often called, Hodawa Because it's near the end of May and known to be one of the hottest, sort of spring races of the year, I guess if you wanna separate it from races in the summer, which Typically don't have longer half marathon marathon distances. And going into this race, I was doing what they called the 17 k challenge, which is a 2 ks, a 5 ks, and a 10 ks, all within the span of I want to say maybe like, 3 to 4 hours from when you start the 1st race to when you do the last race. And it sounds quite approachable when you break it down in that way. And I think that's what makes it deceiving is that when you're going that hard for each one, it's really tough and it compounds.

Cory Nagler [00:57:50]: But all the more when you're outside in the heat, and Having been in the sport for several years, I think I convinced myself, it's fine. You don't need to do a lot of planning for race day. But come for this race, I absolutely hammered the 2 ks and went for the win, which I did though I have to admit that there were, it was probably mostly families and younger kids, so I don't give myself too much for that. And took very little to drink, maybe a cup of water, half a banana, had maybe 1 gel between the 5 and 10 k, and Remember this is a good 4 hours or so getting into the 10 k. So suffice it to say by the time this 10 k rolls around, it's near 30 degrees And I bonked hard maybe from the 4 or 5 k mark, more so than I have in maybe any marathon I've run even. So that was a miserable experience, But I think a good life lesson. For 1, absolutely don't forget the basics. Getting your hydration, your nutrition, And to remember that there's always more to learn in the sport, because I am absolutely not a professional running coach and somehow Still convinced myself that I knew better than to, than to need to take in nutrition, so, listen to your coaches.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:59:01]: What's funny is that I I mean, my double when I in college, I was a 10 k runner. So I would do the 5 k and the 10 k, and those were 2 days apart. And the 1st time I did it, I didn't I was like, oh, I have 2 old days. I'll be fine. And the 5 k to even 2 days later, I think I ran slower in the 5 k than I split in the 10 k. So Back that you did all 3 of those in 1 single day I mean, I know that, like, now I'm running marathons, but, like, That I remember that double be even with 2 days in between being absolutely brutal the first time I did it. It got better The more times I did it, but it's just funny that that you, had them all in one day because, you know, brings brings you back to, like, in high school and you'd run 3 events, but it would be, like, mile, the the 800 and the and the 2 mile or something like that. But, yeah, that's that's that's wild.

Michael Hammond [00:59:54]: Right right back to what Alex said, Corey thought he'd be the exception to the rule, man. He thought he'd be the exception and and he was not. Corey, I appreciate you sharing a really specific Mistake. You know, ours were, like, very overarching, very serious, very big, and you're just like, hey. I went out and was a moron in a race, and I I regret it. I learned from it and bam. So it's it's a very simple, like, a to to z thing. I I really appreciate that.

Michael Hammond [01:00:17]: That was a good story.

Alex Ostberg [01:00:19]: And just to kinda wrap things up, I was thinking, you know, to your point, Michael, Andy, you, and and me all shared these, like, big existential mistakes, heavy topics, You know, I think I think sometimes difficult to to talk about. But the reality is too, like, there are there are also mistakes, and maybe this should be another podcast, The smaller mistakes, right, that that are easy to eliminate. And I always tell marathoners when they're preparing for their race, like, it's it's always easier to eliminate the downside before you capitalize on your upside. Right? Like get rid of all the things. Protect your your plan from failure first before you worry about optimizing it. And I tell people, like, what does that mean practically? That means dial in your nutrition, dial in your pacing strategy, dial in your mental approach. Because if you forget jails or, like, you mess up your fueling, that's more likely gonna have more of a negative impact than any other positive thing can have a positive impact on your race. So, like, let's not forget about the small things too.

Alex Ostberg [01:01:11]: And again, maybe I'm creating another podcast, more work for ourselves here. But, in in the future, maybe we should talk on that to you and just, like, remember that there's a spectrum of mistakes that you make from the smallest ones to the biggest ones and and and everything in between. So, yeah, it's been a pleasure chatting about all this today.

Cory Nagler [01:01:27]: Yeah. Alex, you're actually making my life easier because that's definitely going the bank of potential future topics. And I'll also add on Michael. Absolutely. I was a moron that day, and maybe other people can relate, but it definitely was not the last time that I was a moron in a race.

Michael Hammond [01:01:41]: It never is, man. It never is. Like I said, we're human. We're we're always gonna make these mistakes. You just gotta sometimes though you gotta make go make those mistakes in order to To truly learn just how important that stuff is and and that, again, that as much as you wanna be, you're not the exception to that rule. You just fall right under that rule.

Andie Cozzarelli [01:01:59]: Yeah. Plenty of plenty of moronic, small mistakes that I've made. We could definitely do a long podcast.

Michael Hammond [01:02:08]: We all here all night. I know.

Cory Nagler [01:02:10]: Alright. Whether it's over a podcast or just a casual chat, I definitely need to hear some of these stories too and not, now that I've adequately embarrassed myself.

Michael Hammond [01:02:18]: Yeah. Hey. Oh, don't worry. We got plenty. I'm sure all 3 of us do.

Cory Nagler [01:02:22]: Perfect. Love it. Well, I hope people learn a lot from this, And maybe we'll prevent you from making mistakes, but, as I believe it was either Andy or Michael said, sometimes you just have to make these mistakes to learn. So Thank you all for coming on and, sharing some of your stories.

Alex Ostberg [01:02:36]: Thanks, Corey.

Andie Cozzarelli [01:02:37]: Yep. Thanks.

Michael Hammond [01:02:38]: Yeah, Corey. It was a pleasure.

Cory Nagler [01:02:40]: Pleasure's all mine. Happy running, everyone.

Finn Melanson [01:02:57]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm your host, Finn Melanson, as always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. Please consider connecting with me on Instagram at Wasatch Finn And the rest of our team at Runners Connect, also consider supporting our show for free with a rating on the Spotify and Apple Podcast players. And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with our guests, and premier access to contests and giveaways, and subscribe to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netbackslash podcast. Until next time, happy trading.