Running With Creative Endurance

Guest [00:00:05]: My name is Mike Schneidt, and you're listening to the Run to the Top podcast.

Finn Melanson [00:00:13]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn Melanson, and This is the Run to the Top podcast. The podcast dedicated to making you a better runner with each and every episode. You're created and produced by the expert team of coaches is at runnersconnect.net where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Are you feeling the burnout from your runs? Ready to harness effective strategies for enduring creativity and commitment to your running? Lately, I've been feeling and thinking all of this, And that's what inspired me to reach out to Mike Schneidt, a seasoned designer and marathon runner whose recent book, Creative Endurance, Outlines a series of ideas and methods you can deploy to reignite or keep your imagination, your spirit, and your sense of innovation or breakthrough flowing. If you haven't read the book yet, this conversation is designed to have a similar effect, equipping you with the mindset tools to help you power through any challenging situation in your running journey. Specifically, Mike and I talk about the inspiration behind creative endurance and what led him to write a book that in part reflects on the intersection of creativity and endurance sports, The connection between physical activity and creative thinking and how exactly endurance sports fosters creativity, stories and insights from high profile people that illustrate the Power of creativity in athletic breakthroughs as well as practical tips and exercises from the book that listeners can implement to boost their creativity in running. Think of creative endurance as a unique guide to achieving your running goals and thriving in your running journey without compromising or WellBe.

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Guest [00:02:40]: Good. How are you doing?

Finn Melanson [00:02:41]: I'm doing great. We're here to talk about your book, Creative Endurance, 56 rules for overcoming obstacles and achieving your goals, and I'm really excited to talk about it. There's a there's a few names that You feature in the book Dean Karnazes, Dick Beardsley, Bill DeMong that I think a lot of listeners will be familiar with. But, they might not be familiar with This concept of creative endurance and so I think we should start there. What is creative endurance?

Guest [00:03:08]: Sure. Creative endurance is the idea of just basically overcoming burnout and the obstacles that, one faces in their day as a person who might be a designer or a photographer or an illustrator or a writer. Those can be obstacles that are external, like, somebody asking you For revisions, or, like, you know, budgetary constraints, or they might be internal obstacles like, you know, Self doubt or the feeling of imposter syndrome. So the real, the main tool that Of Creative Endurance is, the idea of just flipping a negative into a positive. You know? So, like, the Idea of, like, saying, well, you know, taking revisions for an example, saying, you know, this is an opportunity to improve my work Rather than, you know, looking at those revisions on your piece of writing and saying, you know, this means that, I'm no good at what I do and, you know, the world sucks and blah blah blah. So, that's one thing that I've I've really learned To do through running because I think that, you know, anybody who runs knows that running can either Suck, and a lot of times it does suck or it can, you know, really just make you feel a hell of a lot better about your day, and it's really a matter of perspective and how you look at it.

Finn Melanson [00:04:41]: So going back to the the flipping the negative to the positive, is this part of that concept of cognitive reappraisal that you talk about a lot in the book?

Guest [00:04:49]: That's right. Yeah. The the idea of cognitive reappraisal and, you know, just having a sense of optimism when you go into a situation, and thinking that, Like, you know, this is gonna turn out for the best. And, you know, sometimes it requires you to just, you know, really dig your heels into being the idea of an optimist. And, one of the other tools I talk about in the book is this idea of grit where it's just, you know, understanding that sometimes, You know, something the situation is not gonna be great. Like, it's not gonna be fun to sit there and, write for hours on end or Run for hours on end, but, you know, continuing to believe that at the end of it all, whether you're writing or running, you know, there will be A positive outcome from the from the situation, and, you know, I think that goes to the idea of, like, Thinking about whatever your goal is, whether you are, you know, running or writing or designing because, You wanna help other people or you think it's gonna be a better person or whatever, but, you know, really thinking about, like, how you define success versus, Thinking about, you know, impressing others, I guess.

Finn Melanson [00:06:08]: One other thing I think we should we should Cover before we kinda get into the meat of the book is just your sort of your your credentials as a runner. You're not just an excellent designer, An error marketer storyteller, but you do have this this running background and you reference it a few times in the book. So, talk talk about that and how it sort of influenced the content.

Guest [00:06:27]: Yeah. Sure. I've my running credentials include 3 marathons. I wouldn't say I'm an incredibly fast runner, but, running is a absolute essential part of my day. I wake up every day, and I run, you know, somewhere between 3 6 miles. And it really It helps me just reframe those challenges that I'm facing in the day. Like, you know, running is very meditative for me. So I you know, when I go out there and, you know, I've got, like, my the anxieties that are bothering me.

Guest [00:07:04]: And As I start running and I find it it happens probably within a quarter mile, I you know, solutions to problems start to to come to me. I start to think about things in different light. You know, something that might have been bothering me that somebody said the day before, then I start to think, well, you know what? Maybe maybe they were right about what they or maybe they thought about it or maybe they they actually meant x instead of y. So it kind of for me, running really, like, Turns on the the optimist in me, and it's it's something that you know, when I was in my mid twenties and I was going to graduate school and working full time as a designer at a magazine called Entertainment Weekly, and life was just incredibly busy. And for me, Adding on running to my incredibly busy life actually made everything just seem hell of a lot easier.

Finn Melanson [00:07:57]: You know, and you just mentioned it there, but one of the Highlights from the book and I read it end to end that I think will resonate with a lot of endurance athletes is just how critical simply Walking, not just running, but walking each day is to priming the creative process. It seemed like it seemed like almost everybody you interviewed attributed that routine in their day to day lives to helping them achieve what they wanted to achieve. And I guess the question's 2 part. But, a, why do you think this is? And And, b, what were some of your your favorite examples or or stories from the book that illustrated this power of walking?

Guest [00:08:32]: Yeah. There was, an illustrator named Marion Duchars, who her most recent book is Yoga for Stiff Birds. So she she we talked a lot about walking, and she Plateau Walking is very meditative, how she will go out and walk without music and, use it as a a mental exercise where, like, you know, if she's Feeling stuck with, an illustration that she's working on. She might say, I'm gonna, during my walk, look for all the things that are red. And that might mean a stop sign, that might mean, you know, a house, I mean, somebody's shirt. But, like, by focusing on that, it keeps Her brain active, and it keeps her brain from not, like, floating away to worrying about that illustration. And because of that, then it allows the brain to kind of turn on that other the subconscious part, which does a lot of the work That we we don't realize that, like, our subconscious, you know, processes so much. And, you know, For a creative like myself where, you know, I'm a designer by trade and, a a big part of design is sitting there and actively trying to solve a problem.

Guest [00:09:50]: But then your the the other side of your brain, when you're not actively trying to solve, will kind of Make sense and connect the dots between so many of those little, like, random or seemingly random ideas, and your subconscious will just Put it all into perspective. So, like, I found that, like, going out for a walk even if it's just 15 minutes when you're stumped, You know, it it it helps and it just makes it makes life a hell of a lot easier because you realize, well, the you know, Creativity, you know, whatever we're doing, like problem solving, you know, isn't that hard when we actually just incorporate, you know, a bit of movement Into our day. And, you know, I I use the word movement rather than exercise because while I love running, I don't think that, Running needs to be, like, the part of your day if you're not a runner. I mean, you know, just walking or doing yoga or any, You know, going out and raking the leaves sometimes, you know, I do that too. That's just that'll kind of unlock things for you.

Finn Melanson [00:10:55]: You know, it reminds me and I'm definitely guilty of this, but on almost every single run or walk that I take, I'm definitely occupied. Like, I'm either listening to music or I'm listening to a podcast like this. And, you know, As I was reading this book, I came across the story of Bill DeMaung, who's the Olympic Nordic ski champion. He's actually based Close to where I live in Salt Lake City over in Park City, and he talks about how, how quote unquote boring is part of the pathway to Creative success. So and I and I found that that kinda stopped me in my tracks as I was reading the book. And so can you speak to that and sort of, How important it is to to set aside a part of your day where maybe, you know, you aren't occupied and you're kind of just left to, like, letting your mind wander?

Guest [00:11:42]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he says born is part of the path to success, but, you know, he also distinguishes the difference between Meaningful and meaningless activity. So, you know, I think it's a big part of that is is really knowing what your end goal is. And, you know, Nobody can take away what your goal is, whatever it is. So being focused on that, then, you know, the most boring thing, like sitting there and just, You know, writing hours on end, if it means something to you and you're sitting there and just, like, rephrasing Sentences or whatever, like and it could be boring, but at least you're you're working towards some kind of goal.

Guest [00:12:23]: But to To your question about leaving space in your day, you know, I I'm guilty of that too. Like, I I always put on music when I go out for a run, but I think that like not boredom is good because it just like it it forces you or I could I could speak from my perspective. Boredom forces me To think deeper about the goals I have in life because, I'm kind of one of those people that always Needs something going on. And I think when you leave space for boredom, then that's when you start to really dream and you start to to think big. And, you know, I want to, like, take those times when I'm bored to just, like, fill them up with, like, the most exciting thoughts that are possible. And then I start to think more practically about, like, those dreams. Like, you know, writing this book. Writing this book came out of A moment of boredom or a lot of moments of walking and just thinking.

Guest [00:13:22]: And, you know, when you when I said to myself, oh, I wanna write a book, like, that sounds daunting, but then when I started to say, okay. K. Well, what are the practical steps forwards writing this book? And then I started to break it down piece by piece, You know, from, like, generating a proposal to finding interview subjects and so on and so forth, Then all of a sudden, I wasn't bored anymore. Then all of a sudden, like that that time of being boring became incredibly constructive.

Finn Melanson [00:13:53]: You know, Another and this kind of falls in line with like going on a walk to facilitate, you know, ideas and reflection and stuff like that. But another one of the takeaways from the book for me is That, you know, it does help to set up what you call sort of like an ideal creative environment. So Talk about what you see as the rules for this and maybe illustrate with sort of like what your ideal creative environment looks like.

Guest [00:14:24]: I wanted to say that my you know, it's like my inclination is to say, my ideal Creative environment is a quiet space where, you know, nobody bothers me. But, you know, I've I've found that, like, Sometimes the most ideal creative environment like, I think about when I worked I worked at Entertainment Weekly, which I mentioned earlier, and I sat in this Bullpen area, which was an incredibly loud area. It was me and a few other designers, and I was outside of my creative director's office. And he had a couch outside of his office that people would basically just sit on and wait for him to become available. And while they were and in there, they would, like, talk to me. And I liked that because I I found that, like, people talking to me and people joking around with me kind of broke me out of me being so serious about my work. You know, like, I think a lot of times, like, when I sit alone and I'm working on something, I, you know, I kind of Will build up a lot of pressure on myself and take it very seriously. But, like, I remember just, like, sitting there and having people at this magazine just Goof around with me and comment on what I was working on on my screen and, you know, crack jokes about it and, you know, and and not even in a bad way.

Guest [00:15:45]: It's just like It lightened me up. So I think that, you know, my ideal creative environment is, like, to be around other people because I you know, as a designer, Designers can be very collaborative. We need feedback from each other. And, I like being able to have that kind of Instant feedback from somebody where they could say, yeah. I think this is going in a good direction or, you know, like, hey, Mike. Like, that doesn't feel right to me. But here here you know, here's a suggestion. So theater on others, I think, is is great despite the, The trope of, like, the the solo artists sitting in there, like, painting studio.

Finn Melanson [00:16:25]: Well, I I can't remember who which one of the features it was, but one of the, Gosh. It might have been one of the artists that you interviewed. They said that their ideal environment was a noisy coffee shop, which I found fascinating. That kinda goes you The loneliness of the artist or the loneliness of the long distance runner?

Guest [00:16:40]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was, Marion Ducharz.

Finn Melanson [00:16:43]: Marion Ducharz. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. Okay. And I kind of want to come back to sort of this this boring theme because there was there was a Noah Galloway story in the book. I think he's sort of like one of those big mountain climbers.

Finn Melanson [00:16:54]: And He talks about something that I also found to be counterintuitive but but maybe true. He talks about how he'll use false motivation When the going gets tough to kinda, like, get him to the final, you know, final levels of a goal or something like that. And Mhmm. I guess it it struck me because I've always thought that Throughout the process, you have to have this, like, super sustainable north star and it all has to sort of align with your values and you shouldn't have to, like, Fake inspiration to get there. But but this made me think differently. So, talk about why you included this in the book and sort of whether you agree with this tactic or not in the in the context of Creativity and endurance.

Guest [00:17:32]: I mean, I love false motivation because I think that, you know, yes, it's important to think about your goals And to think about, like, what you wanna do with whatever your craft is, but I also think realistically, like, you know, If you're out there on, you know, you're running a marathon or whatever, sometimes just thinking about that cheeseburger at the end of the line is really nice too. And, like, You know, I I I I don't think that there is a single runner in the world who hasn't, like, run through the cold rain or snow and just, like, Focused on, you know, that cup of coffee, that hot cup of coffee at the end of the run. Right? So I think it's just it's It's an important trick, and we all have, like, mental tricks that we we use, to achieve a goal. And, you know, Whether it's it's, you know, you're you're coffee motivated or food motivated or you just, like, wanna get somewhere, like, you know, I During marathon training, like, I I have a a my wife and I have a cabin in, like, rural Pennsylvania. So what I'll do during marathon training when especially when I'm, like, really, really not feeling it, is I will just say, okay. I'm gonna run from our cabin Twenty miles north to this, like, you know, bar where they have really good burgers. And, you know, I'll I'll say to my wife, Eve, hey. Just, you know, come pick me up in in 3 hours or 4 hours or whatever.

Guest [00:18:58]: So, you know, there's there's no real deep Goal there aside from the fact that, like, hey. I'm just gonna, like, throw myself into this situation where I'm running through an area where I don't have cell service, and I gotta come out the other end of it. And, you know, I anytime I do that, I always realize, like, I can do that. And Then that gives me a greater motivation to know that, like, yeah, I can get through something tough, especially when there's a cheeseburger at the end of

Finn Melanson [00:19:26]: I guess I guess, yeah, for me for me and Donald sometimes.

Guest [00:19:31]: There you go. Yeah.

Finn Melanson [00:19:32]: And I guess this is personal for everybody, but I'll ask you, Where do you ultimately draw the line? Like, how many how many number of times do you have to like convince yourself to do something before you realize, like It's been such a long stretch that it turns out this is I'm sort of like, you know, living a lie or, you know, not doing what I truly want to do versus like, No. Like, I'm actually just going through like the hard part of this and it's natural to have this like negative feedback or internal pushback and I gotta keep going.

Guest [00:20:03]: I mean, I I think that I can I can answer that in the context of, like, working at a job that you don't really love? Like, you know, I think that, you know, when we step Into a job, a lot of times in the beginning, you've got your honeymoon period where everything seems great, and then, you know, either It goes north or south pretty quickly, but, you know, we can go north. And then in in a couple years from there when you've, You know, you've gained the skills that you you you need or that you want. You grow the way in which you want. Things start to change and, you know, maybe that means the job gets easier or, like, the direction of the company has changed. And then, You know, that's when it's time to, you know, just rethink why are you there. Right? So I think that, you know, if you're find yourself, like, In a job where you're you're just not in love with the work or you're not in love with the values of the company and, you know, maybe you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Like, maybe in that case, your motivation is, like, the the great paycheck that you're getting. You know, like, that's when it's time to to reevaluate things because, you know, money doesn't really mean anything when you're dead.

Guest [00:21:14]: Right? So, like, time is the most valuable resource. And I write a bit about that in the book too because, you know, it's really finding your endurance is is about, spending time on the the things that are the most meaningful to you. And I think that we all can get stuck in ruts where, We're doing something that, like, doesn't totally satisfy us, but it it really is important to continue to have, you know, a Dialogue with yourself or, you know, or with, like, you know, close people where you're just talking about what you're doing and Why you're doing it and to continue to, you know, evaluate that.

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Finn Melanson [00:23:50]: Switching gears a little bit. Another lesson that I took from the book that, you know, after a while, What was once a creative act, it was like sort of like this new thing, this fresh thing that kinda sparked imagination, you know, makes you happy. Eventually, if you do it often enough, it can become like a tired routine, which is it's interesting how that goes. But In your case, how do you know when this is the case and what are your sort of favorite methods For challenging yourself to to break routines and to sort of take on new creative acts.

Guest [00:24:25]: Yeah. So, I mean, I can I think about the you know, when you ask that question, I think about graphic design? And, you know, I I find that when I'm I'm nearing that point when things have to change is when I will Like, if I get a new project, I can kind of visualize the solution for the project, like, before I've actually sat down to the computer. And that means that I'm I'm kind of going to my go to solutions for a problem. So, In those cases, what I'll do is, you know, I might sit down and, like, you know, design the first thing that comes to mind without intending to actually run it. Right? So, like, if that means, like, a covered Fast Company, and, you know, I might design the 1st cover that comes to mind and say, okay. No matter How good this is, I am not gonna run this. And then I'll put, like, a weird constraint on myself where I might say, okay. Like, I'm gonna make All of the type on the cover read, you know, as an example.

Guest [00:25:34]: And I you know, I'll give myself a constraint that isn't normal for myself because constraints can really breed creativity. And given your putting yourself in a position where you're, like, You're doing something that you're uncomfortable with, you're creating a solution that you're not comfortable with, that's when you're gonna get some Some really cool results. So that's you know, that'll be kind of like my go to solution when I feel like I'm starting to get stuck into some kind of creative run.

Finn Melanson [00:26:04]: Do you feel like as you've gotten older and as you've gained more knowledge about what it takes, it's become easier for you to To break habits and and to sort of embrace new creative projects?

Guest [00:26:19]: Yeah. I I think that as I get older, I am becoming more comfortable with the idea of not being good at things and not having the answer to things. You know, writing you know, I wrote writing this book. This is my first book. I wrote it in my forties. Like, sitting down and writing is hard at any age, but sitting down and and writing, you know, when when you're in your forties and you've already You know, somewhat established yourself as a graphic designer and then you're putting yourself in this position where, like, you're gonna suck at something. Like, you know, my first, Like, 10 drafts of this book sucked. But I've become more comfortable with the fact that of, you know, that I don't have to be good at something at first.

Guest [00:27:01]: And, You know, I really love being a student and and learning new things and learning how to write, and I find that, like, that really That gets me excited. It's just like, you know, picking up the New York Times every day and looking at the times from the perspective of a writer Versus a designer, it's like I look at my whole day as a totally different perspective versus where, like, the 1st 20 years of my career, it's like I would look at the times and, like, You know, focus on, you know, the photography or the illustration or the type. Yeah. Whereas, like, now I'm like, I'll pick up the times and, like, Focus on, like, okay, what's the opening sentence to this story? You know? Like, are you how what what interesting new words are Are they using and it just, like, it gives me a whole new take on life. And it really that kind of, like, fuels my optimism too because, you know, it seemed like, wow. You can You can continue to reinvent yourself throughout your entire career if as long as you're willing to just, like, not be good at something at first.

Finn Melanson [00:28:04]: That's inter yeah. That that's What you've analyzed about the times has changed. That's that's really interesting to me. I'm trying to think of, like, how I could do that in my own pursuits. Okay. Another another story or feature that I really enjoyed in the book was about Dean Karnazes, and I think a lot of Listeners in the audience know who Dean Karnazes is, but I actually learned a lot about Dean in this book. I didn't realize that he was a writer. I didn't realize that he was so Interested in Greek culture and he was writing a screenplay and that he was using his running to do that, and it kind of all Builds around this idea of variety and having sort of side activities or hustles as being so important to creative endurance.

Finn Melanson [00:28:45]: So talk about that some more and, I mean, mean, like, do you have any side activities or hustles that you're pursuing in your life to, to provide feedback or energy to your design career?

Guest [00:28:56]: Yeah. I my side hustle is I I mentor. So I have a a younger designer that I mentor. This is something that I never had planned in my career. I I basically did a design workshop, like a magazine redesign workshop About a year ago, and she was one of the students in the workshop. And afterwards, you know, she basically asked me If I would be willing to mentor her and, you know, I I teach. Teaching is another side hustle of mine, but Teaching is different because you're teaching, you know, a class. You're teaching on the curriculum.

Guest [00:29:35]: I had you know, in this case, I had 1 designer who asked me would I be her mentor, which, Felt like, you know, a good amount of pressure because it's like, you know, I have to help her achieve her very specific goals. But, you know, I pursued it, and it's something that I I do because, you know, giving back To a community now at this, like, midpoint in my life and my career is really important to me because it helps me see greater purpose in in what I do. You know, seeing a younger designer begin to achieve her goals and, you know, continue to improve. And and for her to see how, like, you know, design Can you know, how she's how it's helped her increase her confidence, just it it really fuels me because it it helps me See, just like the bigger picture in in the work that I do. So I think that having having a side hustle is It's incredibly important and Dean's side hustle, which is he's written like 5 books by now, but We talked a lot about how he because he spends so much damn time running, he would write a lot of these books, while running, and he would just basically, you know, run with, like, you know, the transcription app Running on his phone, and you just, like, yell at his phone while running for miles and miles and miles. But He felt like that kind of dovetailed with the style of writing which he loved, which is like the, you know, very classic Greek style writing where Writing was passed on orally, and somebody else would transcribe it. So, like, you know, through that, you know, he and I've developed a a a writing style where it felt like he is really speaking to the reader. And I thought that was that was kind of, like, fascinating to just, like, find a way for, like, you know, your exercise to parlay directly into your Creative Pursuit.

Finn Melanson [00:31:47]: And it's another interesting thing about Dean that you comment on in the book is, you know, he's not As interested in, you know, getting fixated on a particular distance or necessarily setting a PR for him, You know, a lot of the motivation for running has to do with where it can take him from like a point a to point b standpoint and also really, you know, Implementing as much variety as possible, like, you know, maybe one day he's running a marathon, you know, to Half Moon Bay Over in, you know, the California area. And maybe the next day, you know, he's flying to to Greece and he's, you know, doing some, you know, extremely historical Vacation run to, like, the Parthenon in Athens. So just I I found that interesting as well because I think a lot of us, especially in this audience, will get, again, Habituated to, like, a certain identity in running, and he keeps his very fluid.

Guest [00:32:40]: Yep. Yep. Yep. And I think that, you know, what you said about, like, not focusing on on the end result, like, that was one moment, you know, in the interview process where I started to see how running and creativity paralleled because, I interviewed, the chef Molly Boz who she's also a runner, and she had explained how Running really helps her come up with recipes because she said she can't, like, come up with a recipe in the morning, you know, unless she's hungry. So she starts out by going for a run. And then when she comes back for her run when she's hungry, that's when she can develop her recipe. But She explained how she doesn't she won't think about the end results. She won't think about, okay, what should this recipe be? She kinda just, like, Chase is after whatever she's hungry for.

Guest [00:33:30]: So in that sense, like, it was very much a parallel for me, like, kind of a Gratifying moment where I was like, oh, okay. So, like, you know, one of the tricks to being creative is not to worry so much about What the end result is gonna be, but get getting just kind of, you know, hooked into the process, whether that means you're you're running or you're just kind of, like, Cooking by instinct and and and making something that you're really hungry for and being optimistic that and at the end of the day, like, this is gonna become A recipe that's worthy of putting in a cookbook.

Finn Melanson [00:34:07]: I know we were talking earlier about how how important it is to sort of Be in your own head for portions of the day and and sort of to accept boredom, to embrace, you know, whatever ideas could come your way. But you also talk in the book about how not all distractions are created equal and some are actually Good for creativity. And you go as far to say, like, yeah, it is important to have a portion every day where you're doing, like, tactical activities in another parts of the day, like The creative stuff. So talk about that, because I thought

Guest [00:34:39]: I found

Finn Melanson [00:34:39]: it interesting as well.

Guest [00:34:42]: You know, the way my brain works is I'm, like, Very creative in the morning, and then I'm not creative in the afternoon. And that's the time when I like to do, like, Basically, production tasks. Like, that might be, like, sending out emails or Slacking with my team and just, like, checking in To see how they're doing or, you know, sending, like, files out to a a printer or whatever We're interfacing with, like, a a developer that I'm working on a project with. But just like those, like, not creative activities, I like to do it in the afternoon because, you know, I I'll hit a certain point, in my day, you know, probably around lunchtime when I'm like, I feel kind of stumped. After working intensely on on something for a couple hours, whether it's, like, you know, writing or designing, I just I get stopped. And, that's when I just like, I accept the fact that, like, I'm not gonna be able to be creative anymore We're not gonna be able to be creative for the the next couple hours. And then that's when I jump on to, like, the the boring tactical tasks. But, you know, it it also kind of goes into what we were talking about earlier about, like, going for a walk and allowing your subconscious mind to to take place because while, like, typing those emails or, you know, those Slacks or whatever, like, You know, ideas will start to pop in my head, and that's why I always like I have, like, scrap paper by my desk, and I'll just start to, like, doodle ideas or just, like, Right on Post Its or whatever.

Guest [00:36:25]: So I'm, again, I'm still actively working, but I don't feel like I'm working because I'm not trying so hard at it, and, I'm also just knocking out the other tasks that, I I know I have to do in in my day. So it's a way of, You know, feeling creative, fear feeling fulfilled, but also just like getting, getting the damn thing done.

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Finn Melanson [00:37:48]: Learn more at land rover usa.comforward/ Defender. I know there's sort of a a common line expressed in, like the work community where it's like we have really, like, 3 to 4 hours each day where we're capable of deep work. And then the rest of the day, you know You know, whatever you can salvage, great. Do you lump creativity into that same bucket of deep work where it's like there is Sort of an expiration each day and, you need to sort of like use it or lose it?

Guest [00:38:25]: Yeah. I mean, I you You know, when it comes to writing, and I didn't invent this number, but I've read it, like, you know, from other writers. Like, it's You can it's good to hit up to, like, 2,000 words a day. Mhmm. And I have, like you know, in in In a way, like, some people might monitor, like, steps I've like, literally, when I was, like, writing this book, I might, like, monitor to the to the t, like, okay. I've hit 2,000 words. I'm good. I'm done for the day.

Guest [00:38:55]: And that might mean that, like, I only it only took me 2 hours to get to that point. In some other days, it would take me a lot longer. But But once I hit that point, I was like, okay. I'm good. I'm I'm I'm tapped out. So I found that, like, it's, you know, it's really good to Have that level of honesty and just know that, like, I can't sit here for 8 hours a day and be creative and have it be great work. I mean, You know, if I'm under if I'm on a deadline and I've been in a situation before where I've been working until 2 AM in a magazine and I have to get something done, like, Yeah. Like, adrenaline kicks in, and I I can get it done.

Guest [00:39:34]: But I think that, like, putting those types of putting that type of pressure on yourself day in and day out is, like, A really great way to just burn yourself out completely. So, yeah, it's it's important to to know that you have a limit to it. And it's also like You know, one thing I'm facing right now, especially as we come into the holiday season, is, like, I'm tired. And, like, yesterday, I, like, I sat around, like, for most of the day and just, like, Watched TV and read, and I didn't really do much. And I'm the kind of person who does something every single day, and I've kind of Felt guilty about it, but then I realized, like, you know, I I have to just I have to work and be creative when I'm creative, and I have the The confidence and I guess it it it's come now with 20 years of experience, but to say that, like, yeah, like, that creativity, Like, it will come back, and it's just like it's not like, you know, a button that you can just, like, press on yourself to, like, activate it all the time.

Finn Melanson [00:40:33]: I know there are to follow-up on that, I know there are a lot of writers who will say that you kinda arbitrarily have to pick A window of time each day and just consistently show up there and then sort of creativity or insight or, Now the deep work will come to you, but then there are other people. I think maybe you kinda mentioned this earlier in the conversation that, like, You just know for a fact that your brain works a certain way in certain times of the day. So so where do you fall in that debate? Like, do you think You kinda need to like arbitrarily schedule your inspiration and your sort of capacity from a creative standpoint or, do you really have to, like, get in touch with your, like, Natural rhythms and whether you're a night owl or a morning person, stuff like that?

Guest [00:41:18]: I mean, I'm gonna say both because I you know, there were times when I was writing this book that I would wake up at 2 AM, and my brain would just be, like, racing. And it was just, like, You know, completely unavoidable. Like, I have to go to my computer and sit down at work, and I would work for 3 hours, like, and, like, time would fly and the words would just fall out of me. And that was not a rhythm that I really wanted, but it happens. But then there were other days where the words weren't falling out. I mean, like, the deadline was approaching, and it was just like, yeah, I you know, with that, I know that, like, yeah, I'm more creative in the morning, so I will force myself to sit down at 5 AM, when I'm feeling the most creative and when the, like, caffeine is kicking in, and I will just Start to Work. And, you know, I found that 99% of the time when I did that and I started typing, you know, Sure. The first 10 minutes of typing were garbage, but then after that, like, it all started to flow and, like, I felt Completely satisfied 2 hours later with, like, whatever I wrote.

Finn Melanson [00:42:28]: Last question for you, And I'll probably have a lot of follow ups off of it, but there are a lot of people that listen to this show that are really Energized by competition with others. Like, they they really Mhmm. You know, when they when they get to a starting line, they're excited to see how they stack up or measure up against their peers, Whether they're age groupers, they're at the very front of the race, you know, etcetera, in your experience and kind of based on the conversations you've had preparing this book, Do you find that competition with others helps or hinders creativity, or is it more complicated than that?

Guest [00:43:06]: I think it I think competition is good when you allow yourself to be inspired by other people. You know, I've worked with A lot of incredibly talented designers. And, you know, when I first, like, stepped into, like, the New York City design industry, I was, like, Incredibly intimidated, and, I wanted to, like I think in the beginning, I was like, oh, I wanna be better than all these other people. And then I came to realize, like, you know, better is not that's not a good bar to hit. But to be inspired by these other people And to really absorb the process in which, you know, they use for their designs, that's a that's a much better approach because, you know, There's so many designers or so many runners in the world, and nobody is gonna be number 1. Or, you know, I think it it's also like, what do you What do you consider to be number 1? You know? Like, number 1 really exists in your own mind, and it's it's just, You know, I I think that I found that, like, that just about everybody I interviewed was they just liked to, like, Make things and to do things, whether they were running or, you know, coming up with recipes or photographing or illustrating or whatever, They liked the process of doing. And I think that, you know, by focusing on that, Life is just hell hell of a lot more enjoyable and, like but, you know, you should always, like, wanna strive for something a little bit better To to push yourself a little bit harder, because that's you know, if you don't if you're if you're just stuck in the same place and And content with running a, you know, an 8 and a half minute mile, then that's a little boring. But to to to say to So I have to, like, one day run, you know, a 4 minute mile oil.

Guest [00:44:56]: Like, that may not be realistic. I mean, I know for me, that's never gonna happen. So I think it's kind of like balancing out how far you're gonna push yourself and how much you're gonna just say, okay. This is who I am, and I'm I'm content with being this person.

Finn Melanson [00:45:13]: I like that. Yeah. So you would you say that largely you've you've gotten the best out of yourself Both in your design career and in your running career by being inspired by others rather than, you know, having this Adversarial relationship and, you know, needing to one up them or something like that.

Guest [00:45:32]: Yeah. A 100%. I think that, you know, Something I realized early on in in both running and design is that, like, I am not I'm not the best designer. I'm certainly not the best runner. I'm an incredibly hard worker, and I, you know, I just I like to work and I like to, you know, strive and to push myself a little bit harder. So to like, you know, when I'm running a race, like, trailing behind somebody and using them as inspiration to continue to move forward, like, That's great. Like but using that person and saying I gotta get in front of them, like, that's not great because then that that's more, like, ego driven. So I really Try to take my ego out of the situation and just think, like, how can I use this runner or designer as inspiration for me to just become just a little bit Better or to push a little bit harder in my day?

Finn Melanson [00:46:23]: Awesome. Well, Mike, this has been a great conversation. I wanna Restate the book here. It's called Creative Endurance 56 Rules for Overcoming Obstacles and Achieving Your Goals. Like I said, I read it Cover to cover, really enjoyed it. Took a lot away from it. Loved the interactive format. And it was also clear to me that a designer wrote it because, it was Yeah.

Finn Melanson [00:46:42]: It was more interactive and and visually stunning than most books I read, so we'll listen to that in the show notes. But, before we go, is there any Other ideas or or calls to action or tools or tactics that you wanna leave listeners with?

Guest [00:46:58]: Yeah. I mean, I I would say that it is really important. You know, it's like rule number 55 in the book. It's to define your measure of success and to really just decide For you personally, what is it that that drives you to do whatever you do? And to to ignore, like, what you think that Other people in the world think you need to do whether it's like you you know, other people think you need to hit this certain time in in Your next marathon or you need to have a certain list of achievements on LinkedIn, but really just to think about what satisfies you. And I think once you've Focus on that. Everything else really just comes into place, and life is a hell of a lot more enjoyable.

Finn Melanson [00:47:54]: Thanks for listening to the run to the top podcast. I'm your Host Finn Melanson. As always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. Please consider connecting with me on Instagram at Wasatch Finn and the rest of our team at Runners Connect. Also consider supporting our show for free with a rating on the Spotify and Apple Podcast Cast players. And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with our guests, and premier access to contests and giveaways, Grab to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netback/podcast. Until next time. Happy trading.