Running News: Storylines for the Boston Marathon and London Marathon

Michael Hammond [00:00:00]: This is supposed to be the simple sport. This is supposed to be, again, the one where first guy across the line wins. 2nd guy is second. If it's top 3, it's top 3. That's who it is. So it's supposed to be very simple. It's insanely frustrating to me to read this. It just kills me to have such a a complicated, convoluted qualification system.

Cory Nagler [00:00:19]: That was our head coach, Michael Hammond, and I share every bit of his frustration regarding the overly complicated qualification system for the marathon Olympic team. On today's show, we're bringing you a brand new format called news and running. In each of these segments, we'll cover popular topics and give you our hot takes, so You can play along and feel free to agree or disagree with us. This is not gonna be your typical sports commentary show, so expect it to feel more like a conversation among friends than a data dump of performance metrics. Marathon season is upon us, and we're kicking off this new format by bringing you all the greatest story lines going into the Boston and London marathons, as well as from the American Olympic trials in February, which you heard Michael speaking about. Some of the exciting stories we'll cover include, who is Leonard Kerrier and why his path to the Paris Olympics is so complicated, our predictions for who will race well in Boston and London, and whether we might see a new women's world record in the London marathon. You can find a full list of topics in the show notes, including time stamps. If you love running in fun banter, this one's for you, so let's get into it.

Cory Nagler [00:01:34]: To the top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Welcome, RC, to a new segment we're calling news in running. And this week, it's all about the London and Boston marathon, which are just around the corner. I'm super excited about this one. Michael, Rory, how are you feeling gearing up to marathon season?

Coach Ruiari [00:02:20]: Excited. Marathon Monday is gonna be here soon. That's obviously one of the highlights. And then building towards the summer, the Olympics.

Michael Hammond [00:02:29]: Yeah. Boston's always exciting, obviously, for us for the company, of course. We always have tons of people that are Mhmm. Either directly affiliated with us or just in our audience who are running Boston. So it's always an exciting time. It comes around so fast. You know? It's like spring hits, and all of a sudden it's Boston time. But, yeah, very excited.

Cory Nagler [00:02:46]: Yeah. I'm actually running my 1st Boston this year, and I can vouch for the fact it really creeps up on you out of nowhere when you've been doing that winter training.

Michael Hammond [00:02:53]: I can imagine so. Yeah. Winter's over. You know, you get your last long run-in, spring, springs, and there's Boston. So, yeah, it's it's definitely exciting. In London, of course, we have a huge European audience as well. So it's fun to, you know, it's fun to see that race going as well and have we have a lot of people running London. So, yeah, it'll be an exciting couple weeks.

Cory Nagler [00:03:11]: Yeah. And I I think, I can't remember, Michael or Rory, if it was you who mentioned the Olympics are also coming up, but, we're gonna hop in with a story actually related to the Olympics for our first one before we go over to Boston and London. And this is related to the American team and Leonard Kerrier. For those who don't know or didn't follow the trials, he finished 3rd at the trials, and ordinarily, the qualification would, stipulate that the top 3 Americans are represented as it was on the women's side. But there's a little bit of confusion over whether or not he'll actually be representing the US at the summer games. And and, Michael, I think you mentioned doing a little digging into this. So, do you wanna start us off with your thoughts on the matter?

Michael Hammond [00:03:54]: Alright. We're starting hot. Yeah. I was telling telling you guys before that how frustrated I was just like when I was prepping for this episode. You know, I was already semi familiar with the Leonard career situation. I had I watched the trials. I read all the stuff heading into it. So I was somewhat familiar, but let me tell you what's what's frustrating about this situation.

Michael Hammond [00:04:12]: If you're I I can only imagine what a casual fan thinks about this situation. So I I would call myself more or less a running superfan. I've been super into very much. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. More so into track and field, but but now in the last several years into the roads for since I was 16 years old. You know, I'm 34 now.

Michael Hammond [00:04:31]: Like, that's half my life that I've been just deeply invested in running in track and field. I go to meets all the time. I love I love this sport. I'm a huge running nerd. I love the stats. I love the data. When I was reading this situation, I'll tell you what, I was confused. That's just what I found I was telling you guys earlier.

Michael Hammond [00:04:46]: Like, it made me feel dumb trying to read about this. And what frustrates me about that is that if it if it if it has me scratching my head, again, a running superfan, super involved in the sport at multiple levels, has been for a long time. I can only imagine what a casual fan I remember watching the trials broadcast. I'm sure you guys did as well, Where it was like, they put, like, the thing up on on the screen, and they were trying to explain it. And it was so confusing and so befuddling. And I I just remember being like, man, if by some miracle, there are, like, casual, maybe, like, dipping a toe in type fans watching this right now, they're gone, man. They're checked out. They're just like, well, whatever.

Michael Hammond [00:05:24]: I thought it was running. I thought this was supposed to be simple. Like, first guy across the line wins. Right? So Yeah. I I just I I really can't it's it's indefensible to me that we're in this situation where Leonard career I mean, obviously, I feel bad for the guy himself, but more so, like, on a broad scale, like, looking at the state of the sport. If we're sitting here trying to better popularize this sport, better you know, make a better presentation for the casual fan because that's what other sports do so well. They bring in the casual fan really well. How are we gonna do that? This is supposed to be the simple sport.

Michael Hammond [00:05:54]: This is supposed to be, again, the one where first guy across the line wins. 2nd guys guys second. If it's top 3, it's top 3. That's who it is. So it's supposed to be very simple. It's insanely frustrating to me to read this. It just kills me to have such a a complicated, convoluted qualification system. And then you have, like, just a just a a briefly, throw USATF onto the bus as well.

Michael Hammond [00:06:16]: They they had that thing where they, they sent a thing out to athletes ahead of the trials saying, if you finish in the top 3, you cannot run a spring marathon. K. So that's Leonard, that's a kind of part of the conversation here because Leonard's about to run Rotterdam. Well, then they sent 2 days out from the trials, 2 days prior. I mean, again, this is a marathon. This is not some last minute thrown together thing. These guys have been training for this for months. 2 days before, they said, actually, I actually, if you've met the qualify the the 211 standard, then, actually, you can run a spring marathon if you're you finish in the top 3, which, again, everybody's just like, what is going on here? That poor coach and and I think agent of of career is even he.

Michael Hammond [00:06:58]: This is, again, a guy who's, like, super invested in the sport, super involved. Even he's, like, scratching his head. What is going on here? So there's my rant. I'm just very frustrated at all the bureaucracy of it. I think it should be simplified, dumbed down as much as possible. I don't wanna use the word dumb, but, like, that's really what it should be. It should be simplified to where a casual fan could actually follow it because, again, a a super fan like me is sitting there scratching my head. So very, very frustrated on the whole with the whole situation, really.

Cory Nagler [00:07:24]: It's wild. I I do wanna quickly do my best, attempt at trying to explain it because it is so complicated. But before diving into that, Roy, do you have any initial thoughts?

Coach Ruiari [00:07:33]: I mean, I don't think I can add much on to to Michael's rant. I I support it. I mean, how many of us have had someone ask, hey, how'd your marathon go? Did you do the 5 k or the 10 k? I mean, people are already having a tough time wrapping their head around the distances. So if we have this convoluted system just to get people into it, I mean, yeah. And and to add on one thing to to make the, the sport more accessible. I know this is going a little bit rogue. We'll get back to career though. I think one thing we might need just to make it more accessible, let's say when we're watching the Olympics, I had a friend bring this up.

Coach Ruiari [00:08:08]: We were watching some replays of track and field. They should have an average Joe category. So that way, you have someone run try to run one lap at that runner's pace, you know, immediately, after the runners compete or something just so you have that, measuring stick for how incredible, speeds these guys are running at. And they could do it with every sport. Have someone throw a javelin after the the best javelin thrower in the world does it. Just have the average guy step up there. So that's my 2¢.

Michael Hammond [00:08:40]: Rory, a couple a couple of great examples off the top of my head. One was when they did the treadmill, like, the giant treadmill that was running at, like, Kipchoge's pace. I think that was back in maybe 2019 or something. And the the funniest clip was when Mo Farah hopped on it and fell. This is Mo Farah, like, multiple Olympic champion. He he clearly just got caught off guard probably by by and wasn't ready for it, whatever. But, yeah, you had that was such a great example. I love what you said about the accessibility.

Michael Hammond [00:09:04]: The other one it brings to mind is, Atlanta Braves baseball games. I don't know if y'all ever seen this. They'll have, I think he's called he he goes by, like, the Freeze or Mr. Freeze or something like that. I'm I'm I may be confusing it. He dresses up like the Pixar, Incredibles character, and he people will race him, but they get, like, a huge head start. It's like during, you know, the the, after after one of the innings or something like that. And it turns out this guy is, like, a 100 meter you know, he wasn't quite Olympic level as an American, but he was very good and and, you know, very competitive.

Michael Hammond [00:09:35]: And so you got these guys out there thinking, you know, after, like, a couple hot dogs and a few beers thinking that, oh, I can take this guy. No problem. And he just just walks them down every time. And and the fans love it. Everyone loves it. You're I love what you said about making the accessibility, like, finding ways to to make it to where you can compare, but also having fun with it. Because, you know you know, you're not trying to embarrass people. We're not trying to, like, oh, you can't run this pace, whatever.

Michael Hammond [00:09:56]: It's more like an appreciation of, like, oh my god. These guys are rolling for 26 miles.

Cory Nagler [00:10:01]: Well, I I think a cool example of that would be for London since you already have, quote, unquote, average Joe's in a marathon. If you did a a looped course, like you had that one weird year for London, you wouldn't be embarrassing any one person, but you'd see them. You know, you'd probably lap people 5 times over.

Michael Hammond [00:10:18]: Right. Right. Yeah. That'd be a lot of fun. Yeah. Exactly. Just a just a way to make it accessible, make it, like, to where you can actually do a direct comparison. I love that.

Cory Nagler [00:10:25]: Yeah. I do do appreciate it. Alright. Just just before we move on, I do wanna try and summarize for people, just how convoluted this this system is. So the the easiest way to get in and the reason why there was no controversy on the women's side is if you finish top 3 and you have the standard, which is for the men, 20810, and you're you're automatically in. The the point where it gets a little bit bizarre is that Leonard Kerrier did not have this qualifying standard, whereas, Manson Young, who did finish top 2, do have it obviously. So beyond the standard, there's 2 other ways to qualify. 1 is by placing top 5 at a platinum level race.

Cory Nagler [00:11:05]: The other is based on your ranking. Now before you even get into those 2, it's based on 3 people from your country having hit the standard. So in theory, you could have somebody else run the standard and it would, quote, unquote, unlock a spot for career. But I checked what Americans are racing nearby. You have Noah Drottis racing what Rotterdam, from what I can tell, Frank Laura in London, but neither of them have even come close to that to a weight mark, so it seems like a bit of a stretch. You mentioned that career could be running Rotterdam TBD, but that that would be a tough go to finish top 5. So his best bet would be ranking, which is based on your 2 fastest times in the qualifying window from November 2022 to May 5th. You have to finish top 80, but then it doesn't count people who qualify, based on hitting the qualifying standard or or are selected by their team.

Cory Nagler [00:12:03]: So as of right now, career is 71st. That could change, could be bumped back, but probably will be bumped forward by people being removed. So all that to say, he's probably going to get in, but it's just a very difficult system to understand even if you follow it closely.

Michael Hammond [00:12:19]: Like, we have a lot of smart people listening to this podcast, and I don't doubt that they were able to follow you and and understand what's going on. Maybe maybe a lot of them already knew. But I it's just one of those things, Corey. I'm listening to you. You're I love listening to your voice. You're a great ad addition to our podcast. You're a smart guy. You're you're you're you have a great voice, and yet I'm just like, dude, this is we're done.

Michael Hammond [00:12:37]: If this is what it takes to to to qualify, if this is how we have to explain it to people you did a way better job, by the way, than the guys, announcing the Olympic trials race, in my opinion. I think you did a great job explaining it. But even still, man, it's just it's just frustrating. But career by the way, I must have had my information wrong. I just looked it up. The article I was referring to is from March 12th, that said that he was running Rotterdam. Perhaps that's changed, and I was unfamiliar. But from what I understood, he was going for yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:13:04]: I mean, he was just gonna try to run, the 20810 standard. It's it's from what I what I understood. Maybe I had my info wrong, and and that's also updated at this point.

Coach Ruiari [00:13:12]: Did you hear anything more about his DNF at Lisbon? It just wasn't going how he wanted. Maybe just

Michael Hammond [00:13:19]: Didn't see anything. Didn't see any info about it. Yeah. They're pretty quiet. I mean, that that that crew is pretty quiet, so I wasn't sure.

Coach Ruiari [00:13:24]: In at Lisbon and dropped. So Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I'll I'll draw on my experiences from attending the Olympic trials in person. So I was there with the the runners connect retreat which was incredible, but just being on the ground and seeing these guys up close and you may have seen it on camera, but the way he, you know, is kinda having fun sprinting it in, kinda almost tripping over himself as he, careened into the finish is incredible. I love his style of racing. Experience counts for a lot, so I think he could probably you wanna be safe and make sure you're in, but he could probably not race and be be fine. But, yeah, it's just the system's the issue.

Cory Nagler [00:14:06]: I I think we all wanna see him there, and and hopefully it will play out that way.

Coach Ruiari [00:14:09]: Yes.

Michael Hammond [00:14:10]: No doubt.

Coach Ruiari [00:14:11]: He earned it.

Cory Nagler [00:14:12]: Alright. I I'm gonna move on to our second topic, which is related, but that's what do we think the American team should be doing between now and the Paris Olympics? And the the reason I put this in this episode is the obvious marathons to do between now and Paris would be Boston and London. They're they're world majors. They're well removed from the summer, but I I think it's noteworthy that none of the 5 to 6, depending on whether you count career who have qualified for the American marathon team, are running either. So, what do you guys think? Like, should should you be racing if you're if you're running the the summer games marathon, or is it too much rest, or is it better to just take that time off and not risk it?

Michael Hammond [00:14:54]: Well, I'll let I'll let Rory talk about sort of like, because Rory has run many many marathons, and and he he'll have more of the personal experience. Mine is gonna be more from an analysis experience of looking at what these guys do. I think there's a couple things going on. 1, this is kind of a big one. This is a little bit of inside baseball of, like, how world marathoning works. This is kind of this is gonna sound a little bit weird to people, but oftentimes, it is more difficult for an American to do well at some of the big majors than it is to do well at the Olympics. And the reason for that is is because countries are limited to 3 athletes 4, in in some cases, like at world majors and stuff or world, marathons. But at the Olympics, countries like Kenya, for instance, Uganda, these countries that have tremendous marathoners are limited to 3 only 3.

Michael Hammond [00:15:42]: So what happens there is that if the Olympics, if you have a guy from Kenya who's a total stud but just has a rough day, has an he has an off day as hop often happens in the marathon, then he he okay. He's out. Those might be 3 of the best marathoners in the world. Their 5th guy who didn't even make the team might be way better almost certainly is way better than the Americans. The only American recently who who could say otherwise was really Galen Rupp. But other than that, the the 5th, 7th, maybe even 10th Kenyan, most of the time, is better than the best American. That's why oftentimes the Olympics is really the time that you wanna to get it done. That's really the time on a global scale.

Michael Hammond [00:16:22]: Boston, London, these these marathons are hard because Kenya will send 10 guys that are absolute total studs to these races. So what I think is going on with with the Americans I think there's a couple things going on. One is is that they, I don't I don't think it would make a lot of sense to run a big, emotional, like, heavy draining marathon between the trials and the Olympics. I think that I looked at, like, Fiona O'Keefe, for instance. She ran a half she ran the BAA half in November and, like, 110, which is not you know, for her, that's not maybe it was I'm sure it was hard, but it's you know, she could obviously run a good bit faster than that. So I look at that as, like, that was clearly just a nice tune up in the middle of heavy, heavy training for the trial. So that's one part of it. The other part is just a confidence angle.

Michael Hammond [00:17:03]: Why go get beat up by this crazy international field in Boston or London between the trials and the Olympics? If you're already qualified, why go take that, you know, that potential risk to your confidence between those 2 already difficult challenging races? I mean, the trials was in Orlando. It's brutal on their bodies and stuff. Obviously, you gotta everything's about preparing for the Olympics. So I think it's just it's too much risk for too little upside. You know? Yeah. Alright. If you go win London between the trials and Olympics, that's incredible. Anytime you you can win a major or play side a major, I just don't think that the upside for them is worth the potential downside, which is either a DNF or or, again, getting pummeled by just a tremendous field that maybe you're not ready for because you're preparing for the Olympics.

Michael Hammond [00:17:48]: Now your confidence is shot. Now you're having to take time off in training preparing for the Olympics. So I it's not surprising at all to me to not see any of the Americans at at, any of those big majors.

Cory Nagler [00:17:58]: And just before Rory chimes in, I I do have to give a a vote of confidence to the American contingency that I think Manson Young have put together a performance where starting to get into the realm where I could definitely see them strongly contending with, Kenya or Ethiopian runners come Olympic time.

Michael Hammond [00:18:14]: I've thought that for a while. I've thought that Mance was the type of guy that, like, he has the tools. He has the tool the tool kit, and he's doing really well. He just, you know, maybe he's still a year or 2 away. We'll see if maybe at the Olympics, he has his breakthrough. I mean, Young looked incredible at the trial. So maybe maybe. But I'm just in terms of, like, real hard results, Rupp is the only one, I think, as of the last several years who can really, really confidently say that he was able to compete with the car.

Michael Hammond [00:18:39]: Obviously, may have been stuck before that, but, as of the last few years, it'd be rough.

Coach Ruiari [00:18:44]: Yeah. Speaking of Clayton Young, I think you can take a a page from his book. He raced, I believe there was a 10 k in Paris. He got, like, 16th. If you look at his time, I know it wasn't a fast course. It was barely under 30, so probably what he could do in a workout or, you know, definitely not his best time. But I think a lot of the runners are turning to the short stuff, working on their speed. Yeah, no one's really gonna notch another marathon under their belt prior, and I think it ties into, you know, got a tie in our coaching here too, how I, train some of our athletes at runners connect, and how we rate schedules.

Coach Ruiari [00:19:22]: Typically, we're gonna follow-up after some recovery and rest, after a hard marathon grind. You really wanna kinda change the system you're working. Just those draining tempos, long runs beat you up so much. I think it's good to work on the the faster turnover afterwards, which tends to get neglected and ultimately is what they're gonna need. They need more wheels to compete with this international field. So you're gonna see, I think a lot of the people, who made the team do some shorter races. They're on the track right now. I know Emily Sisson is coming back from she's in Rhode Island a lot, then she spends a lot of time in Phoenix, but she's actually gonna come up here to Flagstaff, which totally makes sense.

Coach Ruiari [00:20:08]: So, if the athlete's not already at elevation, they're probably gonna try to make that move. I think that's smart. Get every advantage you can. And a lot of the best athletes right now at the Olympics are are at a higher elevation. And then what's also key, I think, you're gonna see Emily Sisson do. You can just see this by tapping into her social media. There's a great running culture in Flagstaff and, you know, even if you run for a different brand, she's gonna be running with NAZ athletes, people from Dark Sky, Under Armour, and I think that team aspect and collaboration is so key. You can look to to Kenya for it.

Coach Ruiari [00:20:47]: I mean, look at some of their training runs. They just got hoards of people all packed up doing these paces and doing these fast paces and I think it's cool to see that, you know, for, runners connect, runners who've been to Flagstaff. You, park at the spot on Lake Mary Road. It's called Mailboxes. If it's like that 8 to 11 AM, you're gonna see some world class runners out there, and they're working together too.

Michael Hammond [00:21:14]: Yeah. We had that at at Flagstaff last summer. We were Jeff and I were standing there with, all the athletes out on a run-in Flagstaff at Buffalo Park. And it's funny, all of a sudden, Abdi Abdi Raman is is walking by us, and and it's but Jeff I think Jeff had met him before, so we struck up a conversation. We were talking to him. That's actually when he revealed to us he was gonna be running the trials back in February, which was awesome because because of his age and his history and stuff. But, Rory, I'm I'm sitting here thinking the I think these guys should be for for a for a tune up for the Olympics. I think they should be doing the doggy dash, man, in in Flagstaff, Arizona.

Michael Hammond [00:21:47]: Rory moy Rory Moynihan's own race. That's what I think they should be doing.

Coach Ruiari [00:21:51]: Yeah. What am I doing now? Plugging my own race. May 18th, Flagstaff doggy dash. You can actually run virtually in it. It benefits, High Country Humane. There is a 5 k. And then, yeah, I don't think anyone would want to go beyond the 3 hour. I have the 3, 6, and 12 hour timed events so we're getting into the the ultra distances.

Coach Ruiari [00:22:10]: So, yeah, that's a whole another, yeah, universe. I'd love to talk about ultra running more if we can tie it in here. Actually, we got CJ Albertson coming up. So This is where

Michael Hammond [00:22:22]: Corey, this is where we have to rope him in. We have to rope in Rory's you know, his his gut is just like everything everything in his body is just pulling him towards talking about Ultras. Yeah. We have to rein him in. That's our job here.

Cory Nagler [00:22:33]: Reign him in. Can't help himself.

Michael Hammond [00:22:34]: Woah. Yeah. Yeah.

Coach Ruiari [00:22:35]: Activated. You activated it.

Cory Nagler [00:22:37]: Yeah. One one thing I just wanted to mention here while we're on the topic of these tune up races is I did make note of the fact that Mance had to pull out, of a half marathon, I think the New York half in March. This far out from the Olympic marathon, which is in August, how much do you read into that? Do you think it's just an abundance of caution, or do you think it's reason for concern?

Coach Ruiari [00:23:00]: I don't I don't think it's a concern. Same with career DNF at Lisbon. I think if something's going wrong, you pull the plug. There's no point in grinding out a bad race at this stage. 1, you need faster times. 2, if it just feels off, yeah, hop in something else shorter. So probably just caution. Agreed.

Michael Hammond [00:23:23]: I don't think that there's it's kinda similar to what I was saying about an American considering an American who made the Olympics considering running London and Boston. There's not enough upside and way too little downside. The the risk is tremendous. And, yeah, I I agree with Rory. If there's any cause for concern in a situation like that, you pull out. No doubt. Even if it's just like you're just not feeling good that week in training, I think you just you just pull out in that case. So I wouldn't say I would say almost certainly no cause for concern.

Michael Hammond [00:23:50]: There was a lot of talk about Mance potentially being injured, I think, heading into the trials, if I remember correctly. It was just kinda talk. I don't think there was ever any confirmation. And then he looked right.

Coach Ruiari [00:24:00]: He did have legs.

Finn Melanson [00:24:01]: Right. So

Coach Ruiari [00:24:01]: Yeah. Some kind of stress reaction. It goes even.

Michael Hammond [00:24:05]: Yeah.

Coach Ruiari [00:24:06]: But I think he took care of it, obviously.

Michael Hammond [00:24:09]: Yeah. Clearly. No. I think he's I think it's a smart call regardless of what what what exactly was going on before the New York half. I wouldn't be overly concerned about it.

Cory Nagler [00:24:17]: Yeah. Lot lot of maturity from a young runner.

Michael Hammond [00:24:20]: No doubt. Yeah. It's good to see someone like his age. That's something I love seeing. You know, know, I won't rant too much about this, but I love seeing a young guy like Mance just step up to the marathon and and be like, I'm a marathoner. Not that he's, you know, totally doing away with any track or or shorter stuff, but it's I I've always kinda despised that. It's a it's been a very American mentality through, like, the nineties 2000 was like, oh, I'll I'll run track races until I'm closing in on 30, and then I'll do the marathon. Then I'll do the long stuff.

Michael Hammond [00:24:47]: I I loved you know, Ryan Hall, I think maybe went a little too hardcore the the the marathon route, but I loved that mentality of just like, hey. Let's go compete at the marathon. If I'm if I'm a Connor Mance, I don't think Connor Mance is not gonna win a global global medal of 5,000 meters on the track. It's just not gonna happen. He doesn't have the toolkit for it. But for a marathoner, he could be a stud marathoner. So I love that he's just, like, going all in on it and and, you know, going for it even at a young age.

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Cory Nagler [00:28:15]: So I do wanna go to our next topic, and I'm not gonna fully go down the ultramarathon rabbit hole. But, just to chime in on that, young runners moving up, I think Molly Seidel was a prime example at the last trials, back in 2020. And she's now racing or has raced, I can't remember, a 50 k doing her 1st ultra marathon. So awesome to see a runner stepping up.

Coach Ruiari [00:28:37]: Yeah. She's racing, Canyon's 100 k. Well, not the 100 k.

Cory Nagler [00:28:42]: The 50 k.

Coach Ruiari [00:28:43]: Actually yeah. The the shorter distance. So

Michael Hammond [00:28:46]: Corey, I don't know if you're aware of this. Rory's done, like, some videos with with Molly. Rory knows knows Molly at least somewhat well. And by the way, Rory, isn't it Seidel? Is isn't her last name Seidel? Is that how you pronounce it?

Coach Ruiari [00:28:57]: It's Seidel. Seidel like Tidal. Seidel.

Michael Hammond [00:29:00]: Seidel like Tidal. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. I I I only know that, I think, because of one of your videos with her. If I remember correctly, you were talking about Yeah.

Coach Ruiari [00:29:08]: My podcast, I got to pace her for a few workouts. Yeah, she came to, she comes to a run club a little bit less so now just because of her schedule and, she brought the I was bummed the one time I didn't show up to the run club. She brought the the medal and showed people like people hold her bronze medal.

Michael Hammond [00:29:27]: Riddle man. Riddle man.

Coach Ruiari [00:29:29]: So, yeah. We we see her around and, yeah. Now she's dabbling in some trail running. I think just, again, it just shows obviously she didn't end up competing, but she put in all that work to the marathon grind. And, I think it's just a good way to pivot and do something fun, different. It gets you, excited.

Michael Hammond [00:29:48]: She's a stud.

Cory Nagler [00:29:49]: Well, next next club run, she'll have to bring out the belt buckle so you can, see that instead.

Coach Ruiari [00:29:54]: Yes. Exactly.

Cory Nagler [00:29:58]: Alright. Well, let's get into it with the Boston Marathon because our third topic is gonna be predictions. So American, outside international, who do you think is likely to surprise and disappoint, do well or do poorly? Rory, Michael, either one of you interested to hear what you think.

Michael Hammond [00:30:18]: I'll go ahead. I think, really, the the only name I wanna mention is one that you had already mentioned in our notes about this, Corey, was CJ Albertson. Just because I I came to heading into the trials, I came to really like his story and and just kind of his, his training modalities and stuff. So he's a guy who, before heading into these trials, I had never heard of. And, again, what what I said at the beginning of this podcast, I typically have a pretty good finger on the pulse for, you know, elite level marathoning and elite level running. And so I had never heard of him. I'm just like, who is this guy? What what's his deal? Where did he come from? And then you have him all of a sudden heading into Orlando doing runs on his treadmill at home with, like, heaters and and, like, like, some sort of, like, red light thing. But either way, just absolutely baking in his own in this little room that he set up in order to get prepared for the, for the Orlando heat.

Michael Hammond [00:31:09]: And so and also not to mention, I thought he finished the one of the stronger finishes at the trials. He looked tremendous. I think he, you know, maybe he wouldn't have really had a chance to to really make it in top 3, but he he looked like he had a lot left. Maybe maybe maybe if he had gone a little bit earlier, he could have made it. So, I mean, I think you've got a guy who's riding off a lot of momentum. You have a guy who already has shown his capability of running really well in, like, marathons that are close to each other. So the fact that it hasn't been that long from the trials, I don't think is gonna be a huge deal for him. If I remember correctly, he, like, won CIM back in December, but but he didn't quite run the under 2 I think it was, like, 211 something.

Michael Hammond [00:31:48]: So he went, like, what, a week or two later and ran another marathon and ran a little bit faster. I was like, that is what a what an absolute skill set.

Cory Nagler [00:31:55]: Of that.

Michael Hammond [00:31:56]: Won them both. Yeah. Exactly. So I see him as a guy who, like, he's had a couple months since the trials. He had such a great training build up into that. If he's kept that momentum going, I like him in Boston. Maybe not to win. Not to not I'm not saying to win necessarily.

Michael Hammond [00:32:08]: I think there's some real heavy hitters up front, but to do really well as an American, I think that I like him to do it.

Cory Nagler [00:32:14]: Yeah. I agree. I I like that CJ Albertson pick.

Coach Ruiari [00:32:18]: Yeah. As far as my pick, I don't know if I have a wild card for the overall winner. I think Evans Chabat experience counts for so much, and there's something magical about that 3 peat. I think there's 4 other, pretty well known runners who who've captured that. So I think history is just gonna repeat itself there. It seems like a nice number, and I I think he's gonna go for it. And a lot of those runners, also work together in that race. But, again, like, anyone who, does well on a faster course, you can look at the people who are ranked ahead of them time wise.

Coach Ruiari [00:32:57]: Who hasn't run it, I think are in for a world of hurt. Obviously, something was going on with Kipchoge when he ran it. It was maybe more than the course, but I I think it also showed he just likes a pancake flat course. He's gonna tear that up. Any kind of situation where you're out in the hills and just the weather, I mean, you can point to 2018. I ran it there, and people have analyzed that race so much. And it's so funny just to look at the replays and seeing, even someone like Galen Rupp. I think even the the commentator point out, like, how miserable he looked in those conditions compared to some of the other not saying he's not a gritty runner, but he runs well in great conditions, flatter flatter course.

Coach Ruiari [00:33:44]: So and then just to bring in some names that people might not know about. I don't know if we've talked about Matt McDonald, but he's the top ranked American in the field. He actually got 10th in 2023. That counts for so much. I believe he's from Boston too. That's where he's from. I mean, he gets to to run the course often. I wouldn't be surprised if he's back in the top ten, maybe improves on that rank a tad.

Coach Ruiari [00:34:13]: Someone I also like in there, Strong runner was at the trials, Nick Hauger of NAZ Elite. He could be in the mix. He's not training on anything too flat in Flagstaff. No stranger to to big hills and mountains. And the 2 other people I'm gonna shout out, Will Nation is an awesome runner, I believe, from Austin, Texas. I've gotten a chance to train with him and race a bit. He's, like, a 213 marathoner, a really tough, speedy guy. So I think he could, you know, hopefully be in the top 20 and maybe better than that.

Coach Ruiari [00:34:51]: And, friend, former roommate, Craig Hunt is also listed on the pro field and has run, 215, when he wasn't even at his best. So I I always root for, for my guy Craig Hunt.

Michael Hammond [00:35:08]: Rory, if I can real quick, I'm gonna step in. And here here I am being the big Galen Rupp defender on this podcast. People are gonna think I'm in this big, like, Galen Rupp fanboy. Yeah. No. It's more, just to defend him, I the the thing I always like to bring up, I saw someone at one point criticizing the same thing about about, when he ran 2018 Boston. Looked terrible, dropped out. The thing I the thing I gotta defend him with is that he dropped out and then ran 206, like, a month later.

Michael Hammond [00:35:32]: And, oh, where did he run that? I'm totally blanking on it. But, you know, ran oh, prog. Prog. He ran the prog marathon, like, a month later. So I think his was a case

Coach Ruiari [00:35:41]: fast. Right?

Michael Hammond [00:35:42]: Of next month. You're you're right. You're not I don't think you're wrong about that, but I do think it was a case of Rupp being like, you know what? I don't have it today. This isn't my day. I'm not gonna be the hero in Boston. Let's drop out. That's that's where I don't necessarily criticize elites who drop out sometimes of of marathons because it's such a hard, difficult thing on your body that I so with Rupp, like, the in that case, I think he was making a a a game time decision more so than he was just, you know, yeah, being a being a, like, a needy little weenie who who has to have, like, a perfectly flat, you know, like, pancake course. I I I think so anyway.

Michael Hammond [00:36:17]: Because, again, he went and ran 206, and and I think he won in Prague, if I remember correctly, the next month. So, but it's not surprising to me that that the people who who persevere were maybe a bit more of almost like an ultra background or at least, like, the super, super long, you know, harder, grittier type races background that, that seemed to do well, not necessarily at the top, but, like, on the whole in Boston. A little bit more resilient, a little bit more able to to handle those brutal conditions.

Coach Ruiari [00:36:43]: Yeah. I'll give you that. I think there's there's more to that story line for sure.

Cory Nagler [00:36:49]: Yeah. I I didn't know about that 206 bounce back, but that's significant. I I will say, for people not used to it, on that topic, one guy who was on the start list that is no longer on the start list was Edward Chezarek. And I'm a little credentials through my work with the Canadian Writing Magazine at at Boston, so this is hot off the press that he's dropped out. But I think disappointing after I I remember watching him in the, I think it was back in September when he ran the Copenhagen half and and just massively made up a huge amount of ground in the final kilometer. So I think he's a guy who's gonna perform well in the marathons once he can get into this, but I'm I'm hopeful that maybe he'll get in another one after dropping out and kinda pull her up.

Michael Hammond [00:37:39]: Yeah. That's that's really disappointing. And I gotta say, if anyone if any of our listeners follow, like, NCAA level track and field, Edward Jezarek was I mean, is one of the greatest NCAA athletes of all time, not just track and field, is one of the greatest NCAA athletes ever of all time. He won so many NCAA titles. He ran so yeah. King Chaz, he was so unstoppably good back in, like, 20 14 to 2016 or 17, thereabouts. I don't know where it went wrong. I don't know what happened.

Michael Hammond [00:38:09]: I know he's had a lot of struggle with, like, getting citizenship and stuff, and I know that's been kind of an eternal struggle for him is, like, you know, do I just go run the Kenyan trials and try to make their team? Do I try to get my citizenship in the US? But regardless of that, his performance just has not he has not lived up to King Che like, the King Chez that he was in college. I mean, I think he was back then again, this is, like, before Super Shoes came and all that. I think he was ready to be a maybe well under 13 minute 5 k guy even while he was in college, while he was in university. So it's a it's a it's a bummer to see him drop out. It's a bummer to see really on in general where his career has gone, but he's still relatively young, especially for a marathoner. So, yeah, I would love to see him turn around because what a talent. Massive talent.

Cory Nagler [00:38:54]: I think, 2028 trials, look for him to do well.

Coach Ruiari [00:38:58]: He's gonna he's gonna figure it out. I actually always wanna list him as an American because, again, can name drop in Flagstaff, but he's he's one of the, guys running around. And I I found myself, finishing up a long run with him, at one point on where was it? A 1 Mountain Road. Also a spot that we train at for the runners connect retreat just kind of by accident. You know? We all start together, go out and back. I think he went further than me, and then he catches me on the way back. We actually chatted a little bit, super nice guy. I have a cross country teammate who coached him briefly out in New Jersey, at the school that he went to, the high school.

Coach Ruiari [00:39:44]: So we kinda talked about that mutual connection. He's like, alright. I gotta you know fast finish the run. And he goes low 5 on this hilly gravel road at, probably about 8,000 feet. So I stayed with him for maybe 400 meters just to see. I was like, man. Nothing like getting hung up for this.

Michael Hammond [00:40:05]: All the got I love all the top guys you've been able to run with, Rory. I remember and I think it was 21 2021 that summer when we were there with runners connect. And I remember all of a sudden, I was driving one of the vans, remember, and I was driving around with, like, water and Gatorade or or whatever for everybody. And all of a sudden, Luis Grijalva comes up to the van That's right. And was out there on a run. It was just like, hey. Do you mind if do you mind if we have some? Do you mind if, we get some water?

Coach Ruiari [00:40:29]: I was

Michael Hammond [00:40:29]: like, heck yeah, man. Get over here. Here we go. And then I remember you and and, I think one of the other guys that was there at the camp, did jumped in on the run with the last part of the run with Luis and a couple of those other, like, NAU studs. So Yeah.

Coach Ruiari [00:40:42]: I remember that. Just a little try. Yeah. Some people value that, selfie. I'd rather just be able to say, hey, I ran, you know, a mile or a few 100 meters with someone.

Michael Hammond [00:40:51]: I love it. I love it.

Cory Nagler [00:40:52]: For For those who follow the podcast closely, you may know that both Michael and Rory are hoping to target the trials come 2028. So my hope is that by that time, there'll be others going, wow. I remember that time I got to run with run with Rory or Michael in

Michael Hammond [00:41:06]: my workout. Yeah. Yeah. There we go. I like that. We'll we'll see it. Yep. Maybe they won't get the selfie like Rory.

Michael Hammond [00:41:11]: They'll just they'll just cherish the moment. You know? I'm kind of, like, giving myself a lot of credit as if. No. No. It's it's so cool, all those experiences that Rory gets out in Flagstaff. That's when I've reminded him of the Luis Grahava thing. That was probably just another day for Rory. He who probably runs into one of these guys every other run.

Coach Ruiari [00:41:28]: Yeah. Yeah. Why buy? Happen all the time.

Cory Nagler [00:41:31]: I I think, next I don't wanna give, all the talk to the men, so I wanna go to the women next just before doing that. I will give my prediction just overall. I I do think Chipette just so experienced. I I hope he does, and I think he will manage to 3peat for the first time in quite some time. I also think that you can expect to see some really good things from Albert Greer. I I think just, with the, Kenyan team selection still in flight, I think you're gonna see some good performances from Kenyan runners who are really still looking to make an impression with the selection committee.

Michael Hammond [00:42:06]: And that selection committee is brutal. That's what I was saying earlier that, like, making that team is so hard. They will leave off an absolute stud who, on a given day, might be able to win the thing, might be able to win the Olympic marathon. That's how difficult it is to make that team. It's brutal.

Cory Nagler [00:42:22]: Yeah. It's tough.

Coach Ruiari [00:42:24]: And Chabet was left off that list. So they have it in two stages right? They have, I think earlier this year they said, Hey we've narrowed it down to the 10. And of course Kiptum unfortunately was tragically killed. So he came off the list and just, a few days ago before the recording of this podcast, 1st week in April, they narrowed it down to 5, and he was not on there. But Kipchoge was.

Cory Nagler [00:42:53]: So they they did leave him off the shortlist. I

Coach Ruiari [00:42:56]: guess Shortlist. That's the wording I'm looking for. Shortlist.

Cory Nagler [00:42:59]: Now it is a list that they put out, and this is available, but it it doesn't hold them to it. So, theoretically, they could still add you a bet, but you're you're right. It's it's amazing that this guy's won the last 2 Boston marathons, and he wasn't even on that short list of 10. Mhmm. Alright. Let's, let's get into it with the women. So I think on this side for the Boston Marathon, the men are impressive, but I really wanna give it up on the women's side because I think whether you're talking about the the Americans or the overall field, like, this is an absolutely stacked group with so many talented runners. So wanna get into who is the favorite in this field overall and and who's gonna have a good performance there.

Michael Hammond [00:43:40]: You have to think O'Bire. I mean, defending champ. Right? I mean, has been has been looking good. So I really I don't know that I have a whole lot of commentary in terms of the win other than the fact that I you have to think O'Biri is the is the pretty heavy favorite.

Cory Nagler [00:43:56]: Yeah. She she's tough to beat, but you're also talking about a field that has Tadu Teshomi and Worknej Dagefa who have 217 and 215 PRs, respectively. The only question is, can they convert that speed run at Valencia for both of them in different years to that Boston, Rolling Hill course.

Michael Hammond [00:44:17]: It's such a different course. And, also, I did read I don't know if you guys have seen this, but the latest weather report said high of 60, so cool and good conditions typically, and also a potential tailwind. So, yeah, it could I mean, that's the funny thing. We haven't seen this kind of in a long time, but Boston can become a race course if if, if the tailwind really picks up. I wanna say it was, like, 20 11, I think, where Ryan Hall ran at Boston. It's technically the fastest marathon ever run by an American. It's not the American record because Boston because of how Boston is set up. It's not eligible, but he ran technically the fastest.

Michael Hammond [00:44:52]: It was 204, I think, and that was with that big tailwind. So if it if you get the right conditions, Boston can become a bit of a racetrack.

Cory Nagler [00:45:02]: Yeah. Yeah. It can be a fast course on the right conditions. The the question is, will it stay that way? Because we all know that forecast can flip on you pretty quick.

Michael Hammond [00:45:10]: Yes, indeed. Yes. It can. As Rory Rory ran that 2018 race, so he knows very well.

Cory Nagler [00:45:14]: Oh, boy.

Coach Ruiari [00:45:16]: Yeah. I I would like to man, I like to see the more tactical racing, when it's just a straight up race. I mean, I'm just looking at the list here. I think there's about 12 people listed above Sarah Hall, and they're from Kenya and Ethiopia. So that field would just get strung out, make it very unlikely there's even with other great American names in there, you know. Emma Bates, Des, I'd no one's gonna crack the top 10 if that happens. But bad weather, grouped up together, starting off slow, finding your spot, I think that that would be more exciting television. So

Cory Nagler [00:45:59]: Yeah. I see.

Coach Ruiari [00:46:00]: The weather gods will decide.

Cory Nagler [00:46:02]: Alright. Yeah. We'll we'll see what the weather entails. Definitely, you have to think based on 2018 when Des Linden won that it bodes well for her if the if the weather's a little choppy. I I kinda think that Sarah Hall comes on top as the top American. Like, she just looked so strong at the trials even if she didn't crack that top three spot. I think she'll be hungry to kind of come back and put together a good performance that represents her fitness. I do wanna call out one person I think is an underdog that maybe won't place top 10, but that I think you could see perform quite strongly.

Cory Nagler [00:46:33]: And that's Jackie Gaughn. I didn't know a lot about this runner until I looked into her more. But she has a 227 PR, but only 24 years of age and has some pretty impressive 5 k, 10 k credentials on the track, including a win at Penn Relay. So you saw Fiona O'Keefe turn a lot of that experience at shorter distances to a good performance at the trials, and I think, you could see Gong do that, here at Boston.

Michael Hammond [00:46:59]: Yeah. That'll be interesting. 24 years. That's what I'm saying. I love seeing someone younger just go after it. Just go after the marathon. Someone with good good track credentials, but maybe not quite, you know, major major Olympic level. Not that she's not good.

Michael Hammond [00:47:11]: She's obviously very, very good. But another name you had mentioned in the notes, Corey, was Emma Bates. I'd say she's an interesting one. Maybe a bit of a wild card just because the only reason I say that not necessarily she's run some great time. She's had some good success, but she's one of those people I look at, and she's got, like, the stride. You know? Like, you look at her run, she's got the stride to be a great marathoner. So I I think that, you know, maybe the coaching situation is a little interesting just because, you know, you had mentioned, in the American notes, like, Scott Faubble hasn't been running well since he moved to that group. He's in the same training group as Bates is in Boulder, and their marathoners have not been doing great.

Michael Hammond [00:47:47]: So maybe who knows? Maybe it's a coaching type thing, but definitely has potential to be to be really good. I mean, to to do some big things in the marathon.

Cory Nagler [00:47:56]: Yeah. And she has that second place finish at Chicago from

Michael Hammond [00:48:07]: Right. Yeah. Boston's a a different animal. That's for sure.

Cory Nagler [00:48:12]: Yeah. It is. It is a different beast. We're we're talking about ages. I think one of the things that's interesting outside of the American Contingency is when I look at those names, I mentioned as being some of the favorites. You you talk about Helen O'Bire, Tshomi, Degefa. The age gap between them is absolutely massive. So you you talk about Fishelmi is only 22 years of old, 22 years old, rather, and has a 217 PR, which is absolutely insane compared to the the other two names who are are well into their thirties or or even I'm not sure if oberi.

Cory Nagler [00:48:45]: I don't think she's into her forties yet, but, it's it's the times have changed where it used to be everybody who was running top times was kind of in their early to mid thirties, whereas now you see a lot more variety.

Michael Hammond [00:48:57]: Yeah. No kidding. I think it's I think it's like I said, it's it's just a lot peep a lot more people. One thing you have to remember about global running is that the marathon has a lot more money in it. You know? The the the road racing typically has a there's a lot more money to be made, especially if you're not, like, the champion. You know, Mo Farah, we I mentioned his name earlier. He made a lot of money on the track, like, and a and a lot of money in his career because he was a 4 time Olympic champion. If you're, like, an Olympic finalist in the 5000 meters and you finished 10th, you're probably making absolute peanuts.

Michael Hammond [00:49:30]: You know, you're you're barely making any money.

Coach Ruiari [00:49:32]: Mhmm.

Michael Hammond [00:49:32]: So a lot of these a lot of these guys and gals, particularly seemingly in Kenya, Ethiopia, East East Africa, seem to gravitate towards a lot of the road racing because there's just more money in it. There's a more ability to actually feed your family off of off of just running in it. I think you're seeing that more with with non East Africans with, like, Westerners with, with starting earlier, and that's something I like to see. I mean, the unfortunate thing is now we've had 2 very young, potentially, like, goat status marathoners, die very young. We had Sammy Wanjiru back in 2000 I don't remember when he died, but he won the 2008 Beijing marathon at the Olympics at, I think, 18 or 19 years old, and then got he had super weird circumstances surrounding his death, like, a year or 2 later. And then, obviously, Kelvin Kiptum, passing away tragically earlier this year who, again, looked absolutely like he could have been the GOAT. So that's what you're seeing all over the place is, you know, people going younger and younger and younger. I think it's on the whole a good thing.

Michael Hammond [00:50:33]: It's something that I like to see in general, but, yeah, we'll we'll see how that goes. It is interesting having people that are so far apart in age. I mean, someone who was, you know, someone who's well into their thirties, who was, like, in their teens or high school age when these people were born that they're racing against. That's definitely an odd thing that you don't necessarily see in a lot of sports outside of, like, you know, the LeBron James or something in basketball. It's not something you necessarily see often in running, typically dominated by, like, a very much certain age, you know, range.

Cory Nagler [00:51:04]: I love seeing it, though. Like, I think you appreciate a sport more if you can relate to the athletes. And if we can have athletes like Kiptum, who are sitting world records at 24, but then also athletes like Keira D'Amato, who are sitting American records in their forties, and they have a family and full time job. Like, I think it's that much easier to to relate to the personal narratives.

Michael Hammond [00:51:22]: No doubt. I love it. Yeah. I love seeing it.

Coach Ruiari [00:51:24]: And it's, I gotta plug Ultra Running. It's also happening there too. So you get fast people, you know, the top athletes are going into the, you know, maybe going into the road running. Earlier, the marathon scene, because it pays a little bit more and more money in it, and now where do the people just below them go who may be a division 1, 2, track star, stand out? Now they're thinking, okay, I can maybe get a contract or some money. It's better than nothing by going to the UltraCine. So now you're seeing, 20 something runners just barely out of college, competing with these 40 year old ultra runners, and they're doing well. I think the the speed doesn't lie. It translates in both cases.

Coach Ruiari [00:52:10]: It's it's always gonna carry you, and if you can just stack mileage on top of that, I think that's gonna be the trend as these older guys age out. It's, ultra running, road marathoning is gonna look a lot younger.

Cory Nagler [00:52:25]: Rory, I don't disagree with you, but I have to comment. One of our other coaches, Haley, who recently ran her 1st ultra races, commented to me on this that, oh, I think I'd have a lot more to offer if, if this were more ultra focused. Focused. So I think she's gonna be disappointed to have you bringing in all this ultra topics, and we've left her out.

Michael Hammond [00:52:43]: Too bad. Yeah. She's she's one of she's clearly a new convert too. Like and it's clearly one of those things where when you get the ultra bug, you really get it, man. Like, the people who get into it seem to just, like it never loosens their grip. You know? Like, they they start running them, and then they're just they're just addicts. They're totally addicted to it. That's definitely happening with Haley.

Coach Ruiari [00:53:01]: Yeah. I I think I'm still a hybrid, so we'll see how far gone she is. If you wanna have us both do an ultra topic, we can we can certainly discuss.

Cory Nagler [00:53:13]: Alright. I'll I'll I'll put that on the topic list. I definitely wanna make this, assuming it it comes across while a recurring segment with the running news, so we can definitely see about doing one with, Ultra running. Alright. Let's let's go into our last topic of the day. We we've talked about Boston both on the men's and the women's side. London is coming up just 1 week later though, and I think this is an absolutely incredible field too. And one of the things I need to call out is that unlike some other races, London is a women's only field, and the world record for a women's only race is 217, so you have to think that world record would be in jeopardy.

Cory Nagler [00:53:54]: So opening it up, do we think we're gonna see a world record? Are we gonna see some big performances, some surprises? What should people expect come London marathon? Surprises? What should people expect come London Marathon?

Michael Hammond [00:54:04]: I would definitely expect a world record given the context that you just provided, which is that, you know, typically yeah. Like you said, a lot of those faster races have been run-in in mixed conditions. So, yeah. I think it's it's prime for it. I think you're starting to see that's so this is kind of a bigger topic than necessarily what we're talking about today, but I think you're really starting to see the Super Shoe effect, not just in terms of, like I talked about this on on, one of the other podcasts. I think it was, about, like, threshold running. But we you're starting to see the effect of not just people being able to race put on the shoes and race faster, but you're also seeing the training effect, I think, happening. That's what you're starting to see in these in these years since is that these people are just able to train harder, longer, faster, recover better, do more workouts, you know, do more hard work, whatever.

Michael Hammond [00:54:49]: And so and that combined with maybe some of the one of the other topics, which is that we've been talking about, which is, people doing this a little bit younger, you know, getting into the marathon type training, high volume, high intensity earlier. So it's crazy to see because, I mean, if you've been following the sport for a while, I mean, Paula Radcliffe, that record was kinda considered one of the untouchable ones for a long time. Like, that was that was like, oh, yeah. No one's it was sort of that and, like, you know, Michael Johnson's, like, Sprint records, which obviously Usain Bolt got his 200, but it was kinda like those were the records that were like, yeah. Those are never getting broken. No way. And it's so crazy to see so many like, several women challenging and even, like, demolishing Paula Radcliffe's times. You know? So, yeah, I think that I would have to say just given not even looking into the individual specifics, just given the conditions, given the way that the sport has kinda progressed over the last few years and and the fact that, yeah, you'll have someone drop a 215 that you've never heard of.

Michael Hammond [00:55:44]: You know? A a female drop a 215 that you've never heard and and maybe even not one of the biggest marathons. So I think that, yeah, I would have to say just given all the conditions and the trends, I would almost go into this expecting a a faster time, a a sub 217, you know, faster than the women's only record.

Cory Nagler [00:56:03]: Yeah. Tigris Dosefah is run at 211, so she's only only gotta get within 6 minutes of that time.

Michael Hammond [00:56:10]: Good gracious. 211. That's that's how far we've come, man. It's so amazing.

Coach Ruiari [00:56:14]: So incredible hearing us talking. Is the 217 is the 217 is the

Michael Hammond [00:56:20]: Women's only time.

Coach Ruiari [00:56:21]: Yeah. Women's only. That's right. Yeah. So that that's a world record,

Cory Nagler [00:56:24]: not even the London course record.

Michael Hammond [00:56:27]: Yes. Yes. Crazy.

Coach Ruiari [00:56:29]: I forgot about that clarification. Yeah. They got the the Pacers out there. That's gonna help. And, yeah, those those numbers

Cory Nagler [00:56:37]: are listening who's who's confused, a lot of these races, the women will have male pacers, to help them along. So what's different about London is that you only have women, can like, competing together. It's not that there's no men in the course, but they don't have the benefit of being able to have those male pacers.

Michael Hammond [00:56:56]: That's, again, like Paula Ratcliffe when she ran 215, that was she had male she had male pacers, not just like a mixed race, but she had male pacers. So that's obviously I mean, a huge advantage to have a man who can actually do this, who's obviously still really fast, but who's able to do this for a long time in terms of pacing you. So, yeah, it'll it'll be interesting to see. But I think when you have that many women that together, if the conditions are even remotely good, yeah, I'd expect something fast.

Cory Nagler [00:57:21]: Yeah. The the one thing is we have not just a lot of fast women in this field, but a lot of super talented women. Like, you have a Zefa who's ridiculously fast, but Bridget Cause guy, second at the Olympics. And we all know this Tokyo Olympics, the same one where, Molly was able to to notch the bronze for the Americans. But you also have Chep Checio, who won that Olympic race at Japan. And then you have, to add to that insane group, Cepangetich, who's a former world champion from Doha. So it's really just a who's who of, of women who have run insanely fast times and run top performances.

Michael Hammond [00:58:02]: Yeah. I don't see that one going slow. I see I see lots of, you know, kinda like alpha females out there ready to rock and roll. So that that'll be exciting. That that sounds like, honestly, more exciting than the men's race, I would say.

Cory Nagler [00:58:15]: Yeah. So I guess shifting over to the men's race, Some talent too, probably not likely to see a world record, but you do have Brian Schroeder in there for the Americans who's run a 209, so interesting to see if he comes up. And then, my pick to win gold come the Olympics in the summertime, Tamara Tola, who's a former winner of the New York City marathon, and, of course, Kenycebiikele, Kelle, who's a massive name, question around age for him. Which of those people, if any, do you think is gonna come out on top, or did I maybe leave any big names out?

Michael Hammond [00:58:56]: Before I let Rory talk, I'm just gonna do a quick, you know, I'm I'm almost sounding like an old guy now. Here I am talking about, like, Rupp and talking about pre super shoes, blah blah blah. I'm not trying I I love the way the state of the sport. I think it's awesome. But I gotta say, I think Kenenisa Bukele I think he's definitely not the Kenenisa Bekele of old. You know? It's just it's just not the same guy anymore. He's he's aged. It it happens.

Michael Hammond [00:59:18]: It is what it is. As much as we wanna say that you can run well into your, you know, forties and stuff, it's there's a difference between running well into your forties and still competing at the tip top Olympic level into your forties. That's just it's just a different factor, and this is a guy who was setting world records on the track at, like, 22, 23, 24 years old. And so, anyway, I think Bekele is the greatest, in my opinion, the greatest distance runner of all time. I really across the board in terms of everything that he's accomplished, I think he's the greatest the greatest distance runner who's ever lived in the world in my personal opinion. So, anyway, I don't think he's gonna win. I don't think he's I think his competitive days at that level are behind him. But just a quick plug for how much I mean, if you go watch some of his old school races, man, the some of those gold Olympic gold medals, man, Absolutely incredible incredible guy.

Michael Hammond [01:00:06]: One of the best strides I've ever seen. The perfect one of those things where you look at him, it's like the perfect build for a runner. Like, relatively short, very slight, perfect stride, just effortless stride, and train like an animal. So, I mean, the fact that he's even still in the conversation is incredible to me after all these years. But, so I don't think he'll be competitive, but I love him.

Cory Nagler [01:00:27]: People forget it was only 2019 that he won Berlin. So he's definitely up there, but it's it's not that far removed from from some pretty fast times.

Michael Hammond [01:00:35]: That's a good point. That's a good point.

Coach Ruiari [01:00:38]: He's a legend. I think the other runners in the field respect it. Youngsters are probably watching his YouTube videos and we'll see. I don't know if it's, quite a victory lap for him. I think Mo Farah did that right. London was he kind of said this is my last London, and he wasn't necessarily in it. I think I'm getting that race right. Yep.

Michael Hammond [01:00:58]: Yeah. That sounds right.

Coach Ruiari [01:00:59]: Like, he did pretty well for Farewell, but obviously everyone knew it wasn't gonna be his his, best performance. So

Michael Hammond [01:01:06]: Yeah. Like you said, it's a victory lap, and that's fine. I don't think Kennedy say has come out and said that, but you you can kinda glean that from from the but maybe maybe he comes out and drops something insane. I don't know. We'll we'll see, but I wouldn't expect anything huge.

Cory Nagler [01:01:20]: Yeah. I I think it's interesting that you do see so few Americans in either the men's or women's field. Is that just because they're all coming into this stacked American field for Boston, or is there a specific reason you see that as being the case?

Michael Hammond [01:01:36]: Gotta be a combo of that and the trials being being so recent. You know? I mean, every every every American marathoner was gearing up for the for the trials. So I think it's just I think it's just diluted because of that. I think it's pretty simple. If the clearly, the Americans who did compete at the trials who wanted to go bounce right back, for whatever reason, chose Boston. But, yeah, you've got, like, Brian Schroeder who's a tremendous marathoner, I mean, was up in the mix at the trials at least, who's competing here, but I think on the whole, it's just a timing thing. Yeah.

Coach Ruiari [01:02:07]: I think, yeah, some of them might be focusing on the track, whether it's just training, doing something different, speed, helping other people who are trying to make the trials on the track. I think, Sarah Hall was even briefly I thought she was going for the 10 k possibly on the track. I know she's at Boston now as well. So, yeah, not not too surprising with that.

Cory Nagler [01:02:32]: Yeah. No. I'm I'm excited both for London, Boston, even Rotterdam, it sounds like has some exciting runners. That's all the specific topics we have for this, but but before we close off the the news in running, I'm I'm curious, Michael or are there are there any other kind of topics, in the sport that you wanna bring up on our show?

Michael Hammond [01:02:54]: I don't think so, man. I think that, honestly, right now, I mean, that Boston, London, that's kind of the the bulk of the of the news cycle for the spring. That's kind of the cool thing about the spring is it's very focused on, like, a few marathons. I do think for just kinda getting out of, like, the the bigger news in terms of, like, elite news, I do think there's a lot of great spring marathons coming up, either happening now once this airs or coming up very soon. I know, like, Eugene in Oregon is coming up very soon. A lot of people head out there to try to run, to try to run faster. The Jersey City Marathon is is not too far away. You know, there's there's a lot of big races coming up in the spring.

Michael Hammond [01:03:30]: So I know with runners connect anyway, we have a ton of athletes who are preparing, doing those big last largo marathon. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Mhmm. Exact grandma's. Yeah. So doing their last big you know, they're kinda a lot of people listening are probably listening maybe even listening to this on some of their last big long runs and stuff.

Michael Hammond [01:03:46]: So that's really what we have going on at the time. As much as we love the elites and love watching that, we're kind of like, alright. The elites are done. Now let's get to, you know, the the many, many athletes in our audience and and that are that train with us, that are that are finishing up their training and and getting ready to run these races. So spring is always always exciting around this time, April, May, thereabouts.

Cory Nagler [01:04:06]: Well, if they have budget to travel, maybe there's a plug for Prague after your discussion with Gabe and Rupp being able to bounce back from Boston.

Michael Hammond [01:04:13]: Exactly. Yeah. Who who cares about money? Right? Just if Boston doesn't go well, just drop out. Go run Prague a month later. It's all good. Yeah. You you you know, Nike will sponsor you to do that, right, just like they do for Rutt?

Cory Nagler [01:04:23]: Yeah. Sounds likely to me.

Michael Hammond [01:04:25]: Yeah.

Cory Nagler [01:04:25]: Yeah. If Nike is listening and, Boston goes poorly for me, I I would happily take a trip to Prague.

Michael Hammond [01:04:31]: We'll we'll talk we'll talk I'll I'll talk to my guy. Yeah. We'll talk to our guy. There we go.

Cory Nagler [01:04:36]: Sounds good. Anything else on your mind, Rory?

Coach Ruiari [01:04:39]: No. I'm just excited to see how everyone does in these, spring marathons, Corey included. Wishing you the best.

Cory Nagler [01:04:47]: Thank you so much, man. I'm, I'm really looking forward to it. I think our eyes will be on the all the elites we discussed today, American and in in the whole field. But also the the the non professional runners there. As Michael said, there's some really exciting stories there, a lot of RC athletes to follow. So whether or not you're running London and Boston, hopefully, this was a fun conversation. And, yeah, looking forward to doing more of these. Michael and Rory, thanks so much.

Michael Hammond [01:05:12]: Yeah. Thanks thanks, Corey. Thanks, everybody, for listening, and and good luck, Corey, and to all of our people running Boston and London.

Cory Nagler [01:05:17]: Thanks so much. Good luck, everyone. Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at Corey underscore Nagler, or through Strava by searching Corey Nagler. And please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast. Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, and consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netforward/podcast.

Cory Nagler [01:06:10]: I'll see you on the next show, but until then, happy running, everyone.