Road vs. Trails: Debating which Sport has the Better Athletes

Coach Hayley [00:00:00]: When I was a road runner, I was good at one thing and that was running a fast marathon. But since going to the trial world, I've realized I was not very good at other physical attributes like stability and flexibility and strength, specifically upper body strength. So, yeah, I feel like since I've become a trail runner, I've been forced to work on it at those attributes and it's just made me an all round better athlete. We're

Cory Nagler [00:00:29]: all fans of running at Runners Connect, but what about the best kind of running? I'm talking about road running and trail running, which are completely different sports with their own set of challenges. I haven't done a ton of running on the trails, but I thought it would be fun to bring coach Haley on the podcast for a spirited debate to settle which are the better athletes, road runners or trail runners. You might have guessed from the opening clip, but Haley falls in the trail running camp. There's no denying how much agility is required to navigate different terrains on the trails, but I'm sticking with the all out speed of running on the roads. We'll break down the differences between these two very different sports before giving you our best argument to answer who are the better athletes. With that, let's get into it. Hello Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler.

Cory Nagler [00:01:29]: And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Roads versus trails is the age old question, and I'm extremely biased towards the roads. But luckily, this is not a one-sided debate, and I have coach Haley with me representing the trail side. Haley, thanks for joining me again.

Coach Hayley [00:02:02]: Yeah. It's great to be back on. I'm excited.

Cory Nagler [00:02:05]: I'm very excited. And I have to admit, this is actually one that I've had kind of as an idea for a podcast for the longest time. And now that I feel like you've had a little bit more time to get fully sucked into the trail world, I thought this was a great time to have this conversation.

Coach Hayley [00:02:19]: Yeah, definitely. It's it's cool to be coming at it from a perspective of kind of having experienced both sides and being so I was so road for so many years and and now not so much. So yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:02:33]: So let's get into both of those sides because I think I have very limited exposure to the trails. I've only done a few races here and there, but you really have had time where you've gotten really into the racing on both sides. So if you had to think of some of the biggest differences between road and trail running, what would you say? Because I think they really are quite different sports.

Coach Hayley [00:02:54]: Yeah. There's so many differences. Right? And and, yeah, I ran on the roads for, oh, like how many years? 20 years, really. And I'm only kind of I did bits of trail during that time, but I didn't really enjoy it. I was I was always like, oh, oh, I want to be back on the roads when I was on the trails, which now kind of shocks me. So I'm kind of only a year, maybe a year and a half into running on the trails, but I feel like it's what I've always done, which is kind of weird, but yeah, so many differences. And, I think just the general attitude towards trail running is so different. Like, when I was a road runner, if there was a part of some reason that made me stop or or walk for a bit, you know, I'd be like, well, this doesn't count as part of the run.

Coach Hayley [00:03:41]: I'm so annoyed. Like if I had to wait even at a road crossing for a while or, you know, I came to a bit where, I don't know, I think I've had it in the past where there's been like an ice patch on the road and I've had to kind of walk around it or walk over and I'll be like, oh no, this is really the run. But like with trail running, it's just expected. It's like part of it. Like walking is just part of the sport and, and stopping like for snacks and stuff is, is also part of it. Like, I don't, I used to get such a kind of angry reaction to like, I mean, this is maybe when I was a bit younger. I think I've calmed down. I even calmed down about that before I left the roads, but I get such a kind of angry mindset towards being forced to kind of walk or, or stop on a run.

Coach Hayley [00:04:26]: But now I, you know, I look forward to it. I'd stop and check a map. I'd stop and have a snack. Like it's just part of it. And yeah, I think the snacking part of it as well, like if I'd actually had to take, I mean, to be honest, I was not great at fueling my, my road running anyway. Like, Until I definitely not in the earlier parts of my road running until I kind of learn a bit more about fueling and nutrition, but, you just can't not feel probably in trials really. And one reason is just because I guess the, the time can be so much longer. Like, I mean, it depends, I guess, how you're like setting up your runs, whether you are going a time or miles, but because the races are kind of by distance, I still do tend to do right.

Coach Hayley [00:05:12]: I'll go for a 10 mile run, but like that 10 mile run will probably take, you know, 2 hours where it previously would have took 80 minutes, you know, like it's just it's just kind of a different game. And like, yeah, like there can be all sorts of obstacles and different, you know, varieties of of surfaces within their kind of whole trail, umbrella. It's it's not necessarily the same anyway. Like, a road is a road. Right? Pretty much. Like, there are hilly ones. There are flat ones. There are better ones.

Coach Hayley [00:05:48]: There are worse ones, whatever. But like, when you're running on a road, you're running on a road, but like with trails, I found there's such a variation. This can be like sort of smooth, easy runnable trail. Then they're the ones where you're like hopping over rocks. And then maybe even sometimes like scrambling over rocks or like running through bogs, which is something you get a lot in the UK. My feet are very rarely dry on a run, especially in, kind of not in summer. So that's definitely something I've had to like get used to. Yeah.

Coach Hayley [00:06:22]: I think it almost seems like a whole different sport to me, having sort of changed to trials, this year, just kind of the attributes you need, the the sort of like the whole skill set that you need for it really and then the attitude towards it, the things you encounter on the trails. Like it really is just a a kind of completely different game. Yeah. What what do you think if you if you've kind of done much trail running, any other differences?

Cory Nagler [00:06:52]: I think most of the trail running I've done are are pretty buffed out, flattish trails. I've I've really only done, I think, maybe 3 or 4 trail races, and only one of them was an ultra. I think for me, the one of the big differences is actually there's definitely a more laid back feel when you go to the trail races. But in terms of the sports themselves, it's the the navigation of the terrain that you have with trail running. It's, as you said, that need for more fuel and hydration. But, then on the roadside, I think you you really have that more need for speed. There's the need to be consistent and precise, and I I think they really take kind of different skill sets that I'm excited to get into.

Coach Hayley [00:07:31]: Yeah. Definitely. I completely agree. I I I forgot about the whole time aspect, which is silly, really, in terms of the being kind of precise and pace focused. I kind of forgot to mention that, and I think that is a huge part of it because I think one of the reasons I did go to trials is I was feeling a bit fatigued mentally with all the, you know, trying to focus on a set pace all the time. And then, where I where I sort of lived, there wasn't any places that good for kind of pace focused running because there was even kind of the good flat bits, the GPS seemed to go crazy and I just I remember getting so frustrated trying to like hit a pace but it jump around or like and there'd be a windy bit and it'd be a hilly bit. And I know, one side of that would be work on yourself. Don't get so stressed about it.

Coach Hayley [00:08:16]: But also when I started running on trails, I didn't have to think about that anymore. I like never look at pace when I'm running. And actually that was just a really nice mental break for me. And that was one of, that's one of the reasons why I love it so much and why I think I've kind of adapted to it so well is just because for, for kind of 20 years, I probably overly focused on pacing, let things kind of get to me if I wasn't hitting my paces and just having that mental break is just like so nice. It just feels like there's a lot less stress associated with each run. So despite being kind of a quite precise imperfectionist type person, I I feel a lot lot better leaving that side of running behind a little bit.

Cory Nagler [00:08:58]: I think for me, just the scare of rolling my ankles is a source of stress, but that's probably because I have so limited experience.

Coach Hayley [00:09:05]: Well, you know what happened to me in my, most recent ochre when I dropped out of 20 miles due to my ankle and that ankle has, caused me some issues since. So, it turns out once you roll them once, that say one is a lot more likely to go against. So I've had a couple of, little mini breaks when that angle's gone again. So, you are definitely, right to have that fear. And yeah, even on the trials, I have that fear and I'm I'm not yet used to that part of things. And, the ankles are still a work in progress.

Cory Nagler [00:09:37]: Alright. I I won't make you relive that moment too much. So let's let's get into our debate and just to go over some of the ground hurdles here. So we'll start by giving kind of our synopsis summary. We'll each have our chance to give some of the key arguments in favor of the roads or the trails. And then finally, we'll wrap up before crowning a winner. How does that sound?

Coach Hayley [00:09:58]: Yeah. That sounds great.

Cory Nagler [00:10:00]: Okay. I think given that I set a lot of the ground rules here for this debate, it's only fair that I let you choose who goes first for their, opening remarks. So what do you think? Do you wanna start, or should I have the first go?

Coach Hayley [00:10:13]: Oh, I didn't realize I get to choose. Okay. Yeah. No. I go first then. I feel like there might be some advantage in that, maybe. So I'll go first.

Cory Nagler [00:10:25]: I will hand the floor over to you then.

Coach Hayley [00:10:28]: Cool. Yeah. So, like, as someone who who has, experienced both and spent more time in road running, but now some time in trail running, I think the case I wanna start with would just be like myself. And obviously you can't, your team may be clear on that. It is like an n equals one thing, but I have heard people with similar stories and it will then lead me on to, like, my other points later on. But, like, I feel that I have become such a better athlete since becoming trail running. And it's like, it's highlighted to me some kind of, some kind of failures I had in myself when I was a road runner. And I think, I think a lot of people might be able to relate to this, because I've heard people say similar.

Coach Hayley [00:11:16]: So for me, an athlete, isn't just someone who can run faster, someone who displays a lot of, of physical attributes. And when I was a road runner, I was good at one thing and that was running a fast marathon. But since going to the trial world, I've realized I was not very good at other physical attributes, like stability and flexibility and strength, specifically upper body strength. So, yeah, I feel like since I've become a trail runner, I've been forced to work on it at those attributes and it's just made me an all around better athlete. And I think anyone who did the same switch would have to do the same because I don't know many runners who were like, many road runners who were like really flexible and stable. And, and I'm sure there are some, but like, I think as a general rule, at road running, you can get away, especially if you're kind of generally quite resilient, you can get away with being quite like inflexible and quite, not particularly agile. But once you get into trail running, all those things are kind of exposed to to, like, quite a large degree to the point where, if you don't have them, you're actually really kind of a bit in danger of of injuring yourself, like, traumatically, like, kind of falling over or, like, spraining an ankle, falling down a hill. So, yeah, I've had to make myself a better athlete, and I just think being a trail runner requires you to make yourself a better all around athlete as you will get injured, which, isn't necessarily the case in road running.

Coach Hayley [00:12:56]: At least it wasn't for me in those particular ways. I don't feel being particularly agile was necessary for me as a road runner. I definitely wasn't the kind of person who could like, you know, I probably didn't have like great hip mobility or like, flexibility. And I definitely couldn't do like the jumping on and off rocks that I do now and things like that. So those, Yeah, I I'm gonna wrap it up a bit because this is opening remarks. So there you go. I n equals 1. I'm going to open this debate by saying that trail running made me a better athlete.

Coach Hayley [00:13:29]: And, yeah, I think that that story is is probably the similar one for for anyone who has made a switch between the sports.

Cory Nagler [00:13:40]: I think that's a pretty strong argument. I also will hear in a minute to have maybe some arguments that, pretty directly make similar arguments in favor of road running, so excited to get into those. So with that, I'll I'll give my more official opening remarks. So I am without a doubt a huge fan of the roads, and I think that they are the better athletes. I will get into more specific arguments, but I think it the foundation the real reasons why I think that well, runners are better athletes comes down to 2 things, which is their speed and, I think, their well roundedness. And I know that will be a controversial one, because you just got into some skills that maybe trail runners tend to do better. But I'll say first, on the speed front, you're reaching velocities that you just don't reach when you're doing trail running, and it takes a certain level of precision that I mentioned before. When it comes to well rounded, sure, maybe we don't have the best balance roadrunners or the ability to navigate between tigs or sometimes really, really steep terrains.

Cory Nagler [00:14:41]: But I think at the end of the day, ultra running is always gonna be a completely aerobic event. And I think, physiologically, the differences between different types of road running events are much more extreme and require a bigger variety in fitness levels and skill sets. So those are going to be the arguments that I'm gonna dive deeper into throughout this debate.

Coach Hayley [00:15:03]: Oh, yeah. That's gonna be exciting.

Cory Nagler [00:15:06]: Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited to get into it more, and I think those are those are some great some great cases. I think, ultimately, I I hope that the takeaway here will be that both are fantastic forms of running that have unique skills to offer to either side. But, but, yes, I I think, clear that we're gonna we're gonna have some stuff to dive into more. That will bring us then maybe to more our first formal argument. Do you wanna keep order and I'll, give you the opportunity to go first?

Coach Hayley [00:15:35]: Yeah. Sure. Yeah. I'll get started. So my first point, maybe I went a little bit too much into this in my opening statement, but, hey, it's a pretty relaxed debate. Right? So, yeah, the different attributes, the different skill sets required to be a trial runner. So road running, I feel like you have to be good at, being quick and being kind of aerobically fit and that's great. But I think the kind of dictionary definition of an athlete is more of an all round one as someone who excels in kind of a range of, physical skill sets and abilities.

Coach Hayley [00:16:13]: I even remember a quote from an elite, athlete, someone who maybe won a medal at the Olympics, but I can't remember exactly who it was. He said that when they won their medal in, I think it was like the 10 ks or something, they also wanted to be an all round athlete in that they wanna be up wanted to be up to, like, lift a certain amount, cycle a certain amount, swim a certain amount. I can't remember who that quote was from, but someone someone kind of famous for being very fast. And I think whilst he said that not a lot of roadrunners can say that they can do all those things. Whereas as a trail runner, you can't get away with not being strong or being flexible or not being agile. Like, and I think being strong, flexible, and agile are parts of being an athlete as well. I think to be honest, when I was a road runner, I was quite, like, weak and also inflexible. And I don't really think that I felt like an athlete.

Coach Hayley [00:17:09]: Whereas now I can say that I feel more like an athlete. I mean, it's all a work in progress, but at least it's forced me to start trying. You really do have to be, like, so agile because you're you might be on, like, really steep descents. You might be jumping over rocks on those descents. And if you're not agile and stable, you're going to hurt yourself. Like it forces you into being better at those things. And then, you know, like flexibility. If you're clambering over big rocks, you need that movement in your heads.

Coach Hayley [00:17:38]: And honestly, when I was a road runner, I got away being extremely inflexible. It didn't really cause me a problem. And actually, I've heard physios say that being a little bit on the inflexible side is actually good for being a road runner. It helps you avoid certain injuries. But, with the trails, I've found that, like, I've had some little muscle pulls from just not being very flexible from doing, like, certain jumps and stuff. You need a bit more range of motion, and it's, like, forced me to have to work on that. And then finally strength as well. Like when you're climbing over rocks and sometimes using poles, which are skills that a lot of trail runners, a lot of trail races need, you need to have strength in the upper body as well.

Coach Hayley [00:18:17]: And to be honest, when I was a road runner, my upper body was literally like my arms were like little, little stringy things. Like they were just so terribly weak and it was not a problem. It was that in fact, possibly an advantage for my marathons because I didn't have much weight to carry in the upper body, but like trying to be like that in trail running is just going to set me up for injury because I need my arms for like, certain types of trail and like, and my like back and core as well, which to be honest, I didn't really work on that much as a marathon runner, but when you're carrying like, your your running pack and a lot of events in the UK, you have to carry a certain amount of kit, which can be quite heavy, especially, you know, a race ending in January, you need to carry 1.5 liters of water. That's going to be quite heavy for a lot of the race. And if you don't have a strong back, strong shoulders, you're going to get very sore. And I don't think being a good athlete is just about having strong legs, which I did for road running because I was kind of a bit like a, like a T Rex when I was a road runner, you know, I like muscly legs and then my upper body was like little arms. But now I feel like a lot more sort of, all around strength. And I think, yeah, just another part of you that trail running makes you have to work on as you're going to get injured.

Coach Hayley [00:19:33]: You're going to get too sore. You're not going to be able to do it. Trail running just forces you to work on those other attributes that road running never forced me to do at all. When I was a road runner, I only thought I needed to be, fast and like have a really great cardiovascular system. And I got away with doing very little strength work, very little mobility, no stability work. So, yeah, like training has forced me and others, to become more well rounded athletes overall, which I think is just an important part of being an athlete because an athlete isn't just good at one thing in my opinion. But I really would love to hear, your take on this, because I know you think that roadrunners have some pretty good skills as well, which I may be missing.

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Cory Nagler [00:22:10]: UCAN is also gentle in the stomach, and used by American record holders and Olympians, such as Keir D'Amato, Emma Bates, Sarah Hall, Emily Sisson, and countless other elite runners. And because we know you love science backed products, we've got a special deal for you to try UCan yourself. Head to runnersconnect.net/ukan, that's u c a n, to get 4 edge energy gels for free. All you pay is shipping. You can also save 20% on your entire order atukann.co with code runners connect. So I'll get into it in a minute, because I I do think roadrunners are have a a wide variety of skills and are well rounded in different ways. I was ready to to kinda jump back on that comment about trail runners being stronger because I think it takes a lot of explosiveness on the roads. But it sounds like what you're getting at is it it's almost sort of a a different variety of strengths since you need the upper body in addition to lower body.

Cory Nagler [00:23:12]: Is that fair?

Coach Hayley [00:23:14]: Yeah. I think what like, I think to be honest with the roads, it's a bit like because it's more, it's more transferable, you know, like you put the energy and the energy comes out. There's not like rocks. There's not like changes in the ground. That's like dispersing that energy you put in. You can get by by just you. And I definitely did this by just using power to weight ratio. So I was quite light and therefore my power was quite kind of, I was quite explosive despite not being very powerful.

Coach Hayley [00:23:44]: Like I managed to run pretty quick at the marathon and I was definitely not explosive. Of course we are talking about all road running events, but I still feel that I could run a pretty quick 5 ks. Also without being explosive, just due to my power to weight ratio. Whereas in trail running, I just don't think the same occurs. Like, I think you can't just have a really great power to rate ratio. You actually need that, like that sort of absolute strength. I could not use my like power to weight ratio to do some of the stuff that I wanted to do on the trails. Like I could on the roads.

Coach Hayley [00:24:18]: It didn't seem to be such a such a kind of, I don't know, like a kind of direct transfer of, of the kind of, I don't know how to say that. You know, I don't know if I'm making that point very well, which is going to lose me the debate, but basically, I think you can get by with a good, power to weight ratio on the roads, but not so much on the trails. And I think I definitely did.

Cory Nagler [00:24:43]: Yeah. When you talk about, power to weight ratio, you mean just in terms of, like, muscular strength?

Coach Hayley [00:24:49]: I mean, like so, you know, if you're quite light, you don't need to be very strong, like, in terms of absolute strength to be very explosive. Like, you know, some Tour de France cyclists, they are extremely light. So they're, like, absolute strength doesn't need to, you know, they don't, the sort of climbers and sprinters are built so differently because they, they don't really need to carry their own weight so much because they're on a bike. Like, whereas when they're in the mountains, it's a bit more about weight that becomes more important. So I guess what I'm trying to say is when you're running on the road, if you're very light, don't need much strength to be able to move your body very quickly. Does that make sense?

Cory Nagler [00:25:40]: I I think that makes sense. Yeah. And I I I would've I would agree to a certain extent. I think you do you do need strength. You just maybe don't need the same amount as you do on the trail so long as you have the fitness to back it up.

Coach Hayley [00:25:53]: Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that. I mean, I think it depends on the distance. I think to be a marathon runner, at least when I was doing my best marathons, you did not need to be particularly strong. I definitely was not strong and managed to run pretty quick, but then I think when you get to things like the 3 ks, 5 ks, you probably do need that kind of absolute strength as well, which of course, road running in court encompasses all those distances. So I do agree with, with you there that you need that as well.

Cory Nagler [00:26:26]: Yep. Completely. And I I think that's gonna bring me to my first official argument in favor of the roads, which I alluded to earlier. But I think you need a greater combination of speed and endurance on the roads than you do when you're on the trails, which is a form of being well rounded that I think makes them better athletes. And I'll go into each of those sides separately. Starting with the speed, yes, you reach a higher velocity. I think everyone knows that, and I talked about that. But I think the other piece that's important is the actual aerobic zones that you get into and the type of speed you are using when you're on the roads.

Cory Nagler [00:27:04]: I think if if you're prole aerobic, when you're running the the trail runs, you're you're just in that one zone. You're you're in that zone 1, zone 2, maybe zone 3 a little bit most of the time. If you are on the roads, you're you're hitting your VO 2 max. You're needing to work electric threshold. And not only are you using those different aerobic zones for different races, but you need to be able to train all of them if you wanna be able to run fast and perform. And you have to have those different gears, especially if you're gonna have a finishing kick, which is it's possible, but it's really rare in, like, a 100 k race that you're gonna have that. And on the endurance side, maybe it's true that you don't have the same sheer aerobic endurance as a trail runner because you're simply not out as long. Having said that, a marathon is still 99% aerobic, and you have to be able to maintain that level of aerobic fitness while still having the speed to go quicker and have a finishing kick or do shorter distances.

Cory Nagler [00:28:01]: And you also have to have a different level of muscular endurance, maybe not the bank strength or the upper body that you do on the trails. But to take that pounding on the roads, not just for the race, but throughout your training, that takes a very particular type of strength that I think is maybe more unique to road runners. But what do you think, Haley?

Coach Hayley [00:28:20]: Yeah. I mean, I think that might be true if we're talking of, like, trail ultras. However, having seen but not really yet dad to participate in some of the shorter trail races, I would not agree. I have seen, if you set I don't know if you know who Kylian Jornay is. One of the best trail runners of all time. If you've seen him running down a steep descent, it is the speed is absolutely ridiculous. Like it's, I mean, find a video and watch because it is just shocking how fast he like runs down these mountains. Like the speed he gets is just crazy.

Coach Hayley [00:28:59]: Like when you're talking trail ultras, which admittedly does make up a large proportion of trail races, but there were so many great short and medium length trail races as well. Then maybe it is a lot of aerobic endurance, but in fact, and I won't say too much here because this actually goes into one of my later points and I don't wanna say it all now and not have anything to say later, but, when you're doing one of these short trail races, you can actually just spend like so much more, like so much time in these higher zones as well, because the hills are just like, you know, they're pushing you up into like, I mean, I've had one of the top trail runners say that they were in their tempo heart rate zone for 90 minutes. And one of their, like, I think it was like a sort of 25 ks trial race. They were in there, what they call their, what they know from testing is their tempo heart rate zone. They were in there for 90 minutes, which I think just isn't like possible really on the road. And like I when I listened to this, the apocalypse on this, actually, they explained why it was kind of possible on the trails and not on the roads, but like the total in the race, I don't think it was all at once. I think it was like throughout the race, they had like 90 cumulative minutes in their tempo zone and like, including all the, the ascents in the race. And I just think that to combine that, like spending that long in tempo heart rate with like bombing down a descent, like, I don't know, 4 minute mile down this descent.

Coach Hayley [00:30:29]: You just don't really get that range because in a road race, you are, you're kind of keep, you know, you might be doing a half marathon 10 mile, which could be for some people like in a kind of tempo and a heart rate, or you might be doing a marathon, which is more in a kind of steady effort level. But to have all those different paces, like to be in the same race, like hitting top speed down a descent, to be then spending a massive proportion of time in a in a threshold heart rate zone. And then maybe also, like, to be having, like, VOT max sort of zone 5 stuff in there as well when you're really maxing out on the climbs. Just such a range. Like, there is the the kind of things that these short trail races are doing is just crazy. And I would love to do one of these days, but like, yeah, what they what they do in these short trail races needs to be taken into account as well. Because it's just, it's just like mind blowing how fast they they kind of go in those.

Cory Nagler [00:31:24]: Yeah. I I think you're calling me out there for maybe dismissing some of the shorter trail races because it's true. I referred specifically to ultras, and there's a lot of shorter stuff out there. Now they're not as common, but in fairness to the roads, there are road ultras. And if anyone's familiar with, I believe, like, the 100 mile record holder on the road is is Alexander Sorokin. Like, I'm sure he's taking in a massive amount of fuel and spending an enormous amount of time at his aerobic threshold on those races.

Coach Hayley [00:31:52]: Yeah. Like Sorokin is it or however you say it. I'm not entirely sure, so I don't wanna get it wrong, but he is such an amazing runner. I will definitely give you that one. Like, I'm a big fan.

Cory Nagler [00:32:02]: Yeah. It's it's incredible. And he seems to always break his, his own world records or set new ones, so quite wild. Alright. I think we're making up the format just a little bit as we go here. So, again, I'll defer to Hugh. Do do you think it makes more sense for the second argument to alternate who goes first or to keep the same order so we rotate?

Coach Hayley [00:32:22]: We can alternate. Let's alternate.

Cory Nagler [00:32:25]: Okay. So I'll hand it back to you then.

Coach Hayley [00:32:28]: Okay. So, yeah, I think I started to cover on this one in in my last argument, so this might be a little bit briefer, but, yeah, like in terms of, of kind of aerobic fitness, all the things we think of as fitness, you know, like lactate threshold ability, VO 2 max, actual feed, All those things I feel are like you can kind of work those things a bit harder on the trials. It's something that I found because the nature of the event kind of allows you to sometimes train a little bit more like, I don't know, like a a sort of ski mountaineer or a cross country skier or a cyclist might train because of the up pearls. So like, for, like and I think this is why people I think people say that, cross country skis have some of the highest VO 2 maxes ever recorded, although I think there's been some cyclists that might claim to have even higher now, maybe like, some of the recent Tour de France winners. And, yeah, the one of the reasons probably is that they can spend so much more time in certain zones like threshold, and like VOT Max, just because with the hills, you've taken away some of those like biomechanical limitations. If a road runner tried to do like 90 minutes of tempo in one workout, it's gonna leave you pretty, pretty like banged up just because they're they're like musculoskeletal demands. You're probably gonna, if you do that and you're not like super gifted, you're probably gonna end up with with a stress fracture or something, you know, if you did that week in week out. Whereas it's quite common for trail runners I've noticed to do like big threshold workouts where you're like getting a lot of threshold like that just because they can do it on an uphill.

Coach Hayley [00:34:17]: So like me personally, I've done like things like, you know, 4 to 6 times 10 minutes threshold on an uphill, like maybe on like an incline treadmill or something. And I just could never have done anything like that on the roads because the the musculoskeletal demands would be so high. So I think I've actually managed to to kind of reach a higher level with those kind of physiological attributes just because it's easier because you don't necessarily need to have those, mechanical demands to kind of work them a bit harder. So like I said before, there's a, like, I've heard some elite trail runners say they spent like 90 minutes in a tempo zone within like a race. Just cause, you know, they might have 2 big clients and then another 2 big clients and stuff. And, like, it's just not something that a roadrunner would would end up doing just cause, you know, to do that in a race just wouldn't really be possible. Because the musculoskeletal demands and also, I yeah. It's just not possible.

Coach Hayley [00:35:17]: So, you can work those physiological attributes a bit harder. And I think if someone like Kylian Jorne was able to successfully transition to the roads, And and it's a big if, because he says, whenever he tries to run on the roads, he gets injured, which might then give Corey a a point here. But like he would he be better than like some of the best road runners because his physiological attributes, are they actually higher? Because he can, for example, you know, zone 2 stuff, which is gonna give us a lot more aerobic development than just kind of running in zone 1. So like this more steady kind of heart rate zone. If you're reached a certain level on the roads, yours, you actually struggle to get so much running in zone 2 because those mechanical demands are quite high. But if you're on the trails, because you're getting that on hills, the kind of impact and the loading isn't as much. You can spend a lot more time in those higher zones without breaking your body down. And to me, that makes it quite exciting to kind of consider what these amazing trail runners like Jim Walmsley and Killian might run-in a road marathon if they have to say if they could stay healthy, which is a bit of a negative point for me.

Coach Hayley [00:36:30]: But, I think I'd love to see what they could do because I would, I would think that they might have pushed those physiological attributes of lactic threshold and, kind of aerobic threshold, VO 2 max, a bit higher than possibly we see with some of these top road runners because their training allows it.

Cory Nagler [00:36:48]: Yeah. Just on the topic of sort of the transition from roads to trails. I I know Dornea at one point tried to do a a 10 kilometer on the roads, and, can't remember if it was, like, a 30 or 31. It was something quite quick, but maybe not quite as quick as some of the road specialists. But I would have been really curious if he had devoted the time to it, how he would have performed at the Paris Olympics this year, especially with it being such a hilly course.

Coach Hayley [00:37:13]: Yeah. That's definitely the thing. He kinda he has said in interviews that he cannot train on the road. So, obviously, he's never gonna really reach his financial there because if he tries to train on the road, he does get injured, I guess, because that repetitive pounding, which probably does bring us to some kind of physical attributes that you do need on the road. But it would be it would have been super exciting to see him in Paris because it is a bit more like, you know, like a bit more like a trail, I guess, and, still road perhaps. So maybe he wouldn't have been able to to put in the specific train for the road that Ingersin. But, yeah, to see some of some of the top trail runners kind of on that course would have been pretty cool.

Cory Nagler [00:37:51]: If Kilian Dronay is listening to this, we would love to see you run a road marathon.

Coach Hayley [00:37:55]: Yeah. Or not? Mhmm.

Cory Nagler [00:37:56]: Alright. I'm I'm gonna go into my second argument then, and I'm actually breaking out some research for this one. But I am going to argue that the fact that road running is more accessible helps to make sure that its athletes are better. Now what I mean when I say that is that the sheer volume of people participating in road running is just more. And I think the people who do it can train more because it is so much easier to find roads than it is for trails. So I said I was gonna pull up a little research here. I found, what I am sure are reliable sources, but I'm not gonna name them here and leave it open for commenters to poke holes in them that there are about 1,770,000 trail runners worldwide. And that's compared to in the US alone, 50,000,000 total runners.

Cory Nagler [00:38:47]: The majority of which are road runners. So my argument would be that if you have a bigger pool of athletes who are going into road running, and they're able to spend more time training because you can find roads very close to you, whereas there's only very select regions of the US or the world where you have easy access to trails, that I think that helps them to achieve a better level of performance. And the last thing I'll say on the accessibility is that there's better funding and support. And this is unfortunate, because I would love to see more support for the trails, because I think it's a phenomenal sport. But I think when you're giving it more funding and more coverage, you're gonna have a lot more talented athletes going there, and you're gonna have a lot more support to help bring them to their top level. So that that one is an unfortunate one, but I think to me that is an argument in favor of road runners. Yeah.

Coach Hayley [00:39:35]: I think that one's gonna be hard to argue against. I think you've got a great point there. It's a shame. However, I do think that might change a bit in the coming years because I think more funding is going into trail running, but it's definitely kind of an unfortunate and sad thing at the moment that it's just not as well funded. And and accessibility to trails is really hard. Like, even though I have moved to a better place for trail, I still you know, I'd love to do UTMB one day, but I I can't train for things like UTMB around there. I can't train, like, in the mountains where I live. Like, the mountains that I live there are not you know, they they don't even compare to anything they have in, like, the Alps and the and nothing really, in England, really.

Coach Hayley [00:40:23]: Like, there's, like, one place where the mountains kind of are probably big enough to be called mountains. And and even then, most people live pretty far from that. So it's very obvious in this country. So that's definitely gonna be hard one to, to argue against. I even had a a conversation with a friend the other day. He's like, he's run really fast and ultras like, not quite as fast as Sorokin, but he's he's a run for he's Hungarian. He had run for the Hungarian team in the in the world, 24 hour championship. And he said he would love to do trials, but he's just nowhere near them.

Coach Hayley [00:40:59]: And, like, his job doesn't allow him, you know, because he's he's not funded, like because I don't think ultra running sometimes gets the same funding as trail even if it is road ultra running. And he does not have the the kind of resources to travel to the trails all the time. And, yeah, it's a it's a massive point. Like, I think, people like like Tom Evans, who won Western States, was it last year? He actually lives kind of ninni and, but further even from the hills than me. And he, he does a lot of great kind of YouTubes about how he trains to the mountains, not in the mountains, but I think still it's using a lot of fancy equipment, like an incline treadmill that goes up to like 40 percent that we just don't like, we can't all afford either. Like, so I I kind of agree with that point, so I find it hard to argue against it. I guess my only my only way to kind of argue against that one would just, to be to say that they still perhaps to become an athlete isn't necessarily something like you're born. It might be something that you kind of develop into and they're still not if they're going into road running, they're still probably not developing those attributes of like strength and and agility and flexibility that also guarantee becoming, like, a fantastic athlete.

Cory Nagler [00:42:21]: So curious your thoughts before we move to the next argument, but do you think there's anything that can be done to maybe promote a little bit more funding for this sport of trail running?

Coach Hayley [00:42:30]: I think that they're trying to give it kind of some effort in this country, like the genius. You know, they're having some, like, camps that people can go on. I think I don't know. It it's hard because I think a lot of it is just accessibility to the trials. They're just like for me, I mean, they're not just like, I suppose the big races, for example. So ones that, that people really think are the kind of ones they get attention in the trail world, the ones where the money is and we're talking relative money, because don't think the money is massive. Western states UTMB, they're the ones that people have heard of, right? They're like not just trials. They're also trials with elevation altitude that you can't get, for example, in the country that I live in.

Coach Hayley [00:43:23]: And it's probably the same for many other countries. So even if I had the funding, maybe to go there a bit more and still not then like living there, you know, so it's always gonna be harder. And then like, just because you have the funding doesn't mean like I I couldn't, for example, then always go and train in those places. And, like, it would be even if I reached a level where I thought I could compete in, like, these races, these ones that are the best trail races, the most well known where people like they're the ones you have to do if you want to get funding. Right. Like if I wanted to compete in the races, I would not be able to prepare very well for the terrain because I just don't live near anything like those courses. Like in the UK, we don't have massive mountains really. Like, we have, like, you know, very discreet areas of, like, of bigger hills, but it's nothing like living near the Alps or, I guess where Western states is probably is kind of similar.

Coach Hayley [00:44:28]: I'm not like super knowledgeable about the specific space courses, but I know that especially UTMB, they spend time in the race at altitude and it's like how many people can go. And even if they had the money who would want to go away from their family and their country and their friends for that long. Like for me, even if someone said, here's all this money go and train in the mountains, like, so you're ready for your 10 b or Western states. I'll be like, I don't wanna leave my dog. I don't wanna leave my husband. My husband has a job. I wanna see my parents. I wanna see my friends.

Coach Hayley [00:45:03]: You know? Like, it's not even just about the money. It's just about and we can't change this. They're, like, not everyone has mountains. They're, like, mountains aren't everywhere. Like, not everyone has altitude. Not ever has that altitude. It must be doable because, like, people like Tom Evans who live near me still managed to do fantastically well in these races. But then again, they also do have the ability to, I assume, they don't have that many, like, commitments.

Coach Hayley [00:45:32]: They're able to go and stay in these big mountain areas for long periods of time. We can't all replicate that. You know, it's just not it's not realistic for most people. Like, and that's quite a, like, diversion there, a little ramp from me, but I hope that kind of answers the question a bit that it's not just funding. It's also like accessibility to the mountains and, and funding. It really is funding as well. Like, then if you had the ability to go on these trips, like, still need to pay for it. Like, whereas you can train for the roads, like you say anywhere.

Coach Hayley [00:46:04]: And that is a big kind of issue. And I think that is really relevant the discussion because yeah, road running, there's just such a greater pool of athletes. So, the best ones might be in that pool, the best genetically gifted.

Cory Nagler [00:46:20]: Well, I almost feel like you're making my argument for me here. So I'm excited to hear what your last argument is coming back to the trails. Yeah.

Coach Hayley [00:46:30]: Shall I say that now, or are are you going next?

Cory Nagler [00:46:34]: I don't know.

Coach Hayley [00:46:34]: I don't wanna take your turn. That would be unfair. Is it your turn now?

Cory Nagler [00:46:38]: Well, I I think it's your turn, but I I can go, with my last argument if you prefer.

Coach Hayley [00:46:44]: Yeah. Go for it. Go for it.

Cory Nagler [00:46:47]: Alright. Like we said, we're, we're making this up as we go. Okay. My my last argument that I'm going to give is that the greater comparability between performances, leads to people putting out more greater performances. And what I mean by that is that road running is very quantifiable. You can't really compare one course to another at any distance on the trails, which, you know, that that may be an advantage in, mentally, going into it that you don't have something to compare against. But I think if you want to tap into that that last extra point 1% and and get that extra little bit of performance, it helps to have that marker to shoot for. And I think when you have world records that are meaningful, that you can compare from one track to another, even area records or age group records, if if you're not a world class athlete, I think that ultimately makes people better athletes.

Cory Nagler [00:47:43]: It gives them something to shoot for, and it creates competition that I think really brings out the best in people. So, trail running is very competitive too, but I think in a different way, and I do think that comparability is a strong case for the roads.

Coach Hayley [00:47:57]: Yeah. I think that's a great point. I think, again, I think it's hard it's a hard one to count, so you're bringing out some great points. But I think what I would say there is, personally for me, I found their kind of comparability and the repeatability almost demotivated. And it's what kind of led to me compete sort of leaving road running and going to trails. Because I think a lot of and I've heard other people say that as well, because I think, you know, I could be a better athlete on the roads, but I wasn't necessarily running faster times when I was a better athlete. I would say from my experience, and I've heard that people have the same experience. They ran their best times on the roads when perhaps it weren't their strongest, they weren't like their healthiest.

Coach Hayley [00:48:52]: And I think, I think being healthy has got to be part of being an athlete as well, because to be our kind of, you know, I think to be our best athlete, we need to be our healthiest self as well. I think it's a really important part of it. And I don't think I paid enough attention to that when I was running my fastest marathon times, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't always fueling myself to the best of my ability because I did like ever and think, oh, if I was slightly lighter, would I be a little bit faster perhaps? And I think those kinds of things actually don't lead to us being our best athlete because actually maybe your bones and muscles aren't strong. If you're thinking like that, you're not your, your kind of health metrics probably aren't their best. And I do think being healthy is part of being a great athlete as well. And that chasing faster times and what didn't necessarily lead to my, my kind of healthiest behaviours in terms of making sure that my training was its its kind of healthiest, my lifestyle, my fueling was its healthiest. I wasn't necessarily doing those things best when I was running my fastest times on the road. And I kind of wish that wasn't true.

Coach Hayley [00:50:03]: Because I would love it if like being my best athlete self led to my fastest times, you know, when I was working on my strengths and, you know, my stress levels and my sleep. Those things in my mind should be what leads to me getting my fastest times. But like, I don't know that they did because I was still making a lot of mistakes with my training and my fueling when I got my fastest times. And I think that actually when I've changed to trail running, even though I'm not focusing on trying to get that fastest time, I am more focused on those things that lead to me being my healthiest self as an athlete. And I think that really is your best athlete self is your healthiest self. Does that make sense? I think I kind of, I kind of rambled around on that one there, but I think, you know, I think it's really important to be your best athlete. You have to be your healthiest self and your healthiest self isn't necessarily your fastest self on on the roads. But on the trials, it seems that that is more the case.

Cory Nagler [00:51:09]: Yeah. And I I think to to maybe paraphrase some nuggets from that, a piece that I really agree with is that that competitiveness that comes from the comparability that that may bring out the best in one athlete, but it could bring out the worst in another athlete because you're you're consumed and focused on time. Is that a fair way to to put it?

Coach Hayley [00:51:31]: Yeah. Absolutely. There are definitely people who, you know, and still, even if I say I wasn't my healthiest self when I ran my fastest times, that was never gonna be sustainable anyway. Or if you're thinking, maybe if you're thinking about averaging the times that you get over your over sort of a 3, 4 year period, the person who has, I don't know, the the best kind of marathon average over that time probably is their healthier self. So, yeah, I understand what you're saying and also agree that some people do kind of some people, it, what I was saying is not true and they kind of run their fastest times and that brings them onto better times. Like it all depends on you and how you respond to things, right? Like I found not getting my times, like demotivating and it kind of, it sort of didn't really lead to me training harder in the end because well, it didn't lead to me training smarter, but for some people they might think, okay, let's, you know, I'm not getting my fastest time. Let's sit down with a nutritionist, a psychologist, and and really work out how to be how to get faster. But I think it can go one of 2 ways as you say.

Cory Nagler [00:52:52]: Yeah. Okay. So I'm I'm fully in agreement with your comment on that, but I'm excited to hear what you're saving for last, in terms of arguments for the trails.

Coach Hayley [00:53:04]: Yeah. So this one is from me kind of looking in the dictionary and going like, so what does the dictionary say is like an athlete? So it kind of mentioned, hopefully, I'm not kind of grasping at straws with this one. I thought it was I I thought it was still a valley point. It kind of mentioned someone who excels in different sports. And so I thought it would be good to bring in the amazing range that I have. I have discovered in trial runners since moving to the sport. For example, top road runners, I feel like are mostly just road runners. They just focus on road running.

Coach Hayley [00:53:39]: That's the only sport that they are competitive at and good at maybe because of those really super specific attributes required for marathon running that perhaps isn't quite so transferable to other sports. Whereas if you look at the top athletes in trail running, they often excel, at other sports too. Like there are trail runners who are also like the best in the world at ski mountaineering or gravel biking. Yeah, I think those are the 2 main ones actually, I guess, is people who are into trail running, like the kind of outdoorsy kind of things, but someone who, what race was it? I think Western States, one of the ladies who did really well there. She is also like super amazing at gravel biking as well. So she she performs at a really high level in that sport. And then Kilian is also known for his, like, like, he in the sport of, like, alpinism, which is, I guess, just like climbing, like, mountains in the Alps, I guess. He is he's like one of the best, the best in the world at that sport, I think.

Coach Hayley [00:54:47]: And I think he's also pretty good at, like, climbing as well, you know, like, like like different types of climbing that people do. You see my knowledge of other sports is fabulous here. Yeah. So other trail runners, although a lot of them who live in countries that are more snowy, which I know again, maybe this comes back to the smaller pool of athletes. So perhaps I'm I'm kind of doing myself a disservice, adding this in, in some ways, but, some of these fantastic elite trail runners are in the winter, excelling in ski mountaineering, or cross country skiing and like, you know, maybe even winning medals or like the Winter Olympics in these sports. And yeah, like, I just don't think there's roadrunners who can like just compete with the best in the world at other sports like that. I would love to see, some trail runners go into like road cycling or mountain biking or something. And I think some like there are some trail runners who've been really good at like mountain biking as well.

Coach Hayley [00:55:56]: Like, yeah, just like the range in sport as well as the range in skills. And I think maybe because they have that range in skills, it means that they can excel in some of these other events. But I do think that being a good athlete isn't just about being good at one sport. So if you look at some of these top trail runners and trail runners at all levels, I think they do tend to be pretty good in other sports. Like, maybe not me, but like a lot of them, you know, climbing, skiing, they they really are just, like, amazing at these other sports as well, which isn't true for for people. And I mean, I haven't really had a kid taking up the the ski mountaineering. So

Cory Nagler [00:56:39]: We we we might be arguing for the wrong sports. Maybe it's the decathletes and the hepcathletes we should be arguing for here.

Coach Hayley [00:56:45]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They are, like, amazing. Yeah. Watching that at the Olympics. Wow.

Cory Nagler [00:56:49]: Incredible. The the other thing I was gonna bring up is soon as you said roadrunners tend not to have, I I forget the exact word to use, but essentially that they they tend not to also be as competitive in in other sports. The the fact that there's a lot of triathletes who are runners as well. But as soon as that thought hit me, it was all of the ones I can think to, like the top ones, Gren Jorgensen, Morgan Pearson, a few others come to mind. They all started in triathlon. There's not many who start in running and then branch out.

Coach Hayley [00:57:18]: Yeah. Yeah. I guess one reason why people I I mean, I don't know if it's fully related, but people like seem to struggle to go from other sports to road running. And I might be asking a positive for you here, so maybe I should be quiet. But, people like Gwen Jorgensen, when they try and go all in on the road running, they struggle a bit because of injuries, because no other sport is like road running in that, like, repetitive, like, repeated pounding exactly the same way nature, like, just that kind of ability to create overuse injuries because, you know, when you're doing travel, you're always putting your foot a little bit differently. You're always going on something slightly different. And then obviously with sports like cycling and triathlon, you've just not got you've not got that, like, impact all the time. You can put in so many hours.

Coach Hayley [00:58:10]: So, like, people find it really hard to come to other sports from other sports to running. I don't know whether it'd be like the other, I guess it is the other way as well. Like, I guess that's what I was what I was having in my argument, but like, I guess, maybe another thing why people struggle to come in running and this might argue that better athletes, hopefully, is that people like Gwen Jorgensen, coming from triathlon to running or, like, people like Kilian Jornay coming from trail running, trying to do running. Neither of them have been pretty that successful trying to go to the roads. I know Gwen Jorgensen said she wanted to win an Olympic medal in running, and it just hasn't happened. And like, I think maybe because part of their skill as an athlete is their ability to do, like, massive weeks. And actually, if you go to running, like, you can't really do, like, massive weeks in terms of time. Like Tom Evans says he trains, like, 25 to 30 hours per week for the trails.

Coach Hayley [00:59:13]: If you tried to run 25 to 30 hours a week, you would like your, like, bones and joints would just, like, like, explode, like, you know, obese. It would be impossible. Whereas when they're doing these other sports, they can spend so much time doing them. And maybe part of their skill is like from a like, I don't know, endocrinological metabolic point of view, they can recover from these massive hours, but maybe then when they go to running, they can't recover from like, the pounding. So, like, they don't actually have the completely correct skills to make that transfer to running despite having these amazing theological attributes for road running. And again, maybe I'm arguing for you here for road running. You do need that, like, ability to withstand such, like, repetitive pounding, but whether that makes someone a good athlete or just like very good at withstanding repetitive pounding, I don't really know.

Cory Nagler [01:00:11]: I think, really, what you're saying and, you you can cut me off if I'm misconstruing your words, but I think, really, we're just saying that running is the superior sport because other athletes can't make that transition. Is that a good bridge?

Coach Hayley [01:00:23]: It sounds like you've heard what you wanted to hear.

Cory Nagler [01:00:26]: Maybe just a little bit.

Coach Hayley [01:00:29]: Yeah. We're running in general. Oh, yeah. Maybe, yeah, maybe we can just say that running is the best sport because then, you know, road running, trail running, running is the best, but, Yeah. Like, other sports, like, I don't know. Swimming. I I don't like swimming. It's not so great.

Coach Hayley [01:00:47]: Does any runner like swimming?

Cory Nagler [01:00:49]: Yeah. I will say I definitely could not make the transition to swimming. There's no way.

Coach Hayley [01:00:53]: No. I was just having a conversation with my friends yesterday about how much we all hated swimming and how poor we were at it, and, like, maybe runners just can't swim because they're just, like, completely I mean, I guess triathletes, yeah, but, like, yeah, we we just can't do it. I would not make the transition to swimming.

Cory Nagler [01:01:12]: Yeah. I I I think that is a pretty good argument against even crowning a winner because I can't think of any good examples of anybody who's made a transition from a completely different sport to becoming really good on the roads or vice versa with the trails, except for maybe moving up from the track to the roads. But what are what are your thoughts on it?

Coach Hayley [01:01:35]: Yeah. I mean, like, it it it is kind of a hard one to decide a winner, and I think I would love it if we could race the best trail runners and the best road runners and see, like, who comes out on top. But then I think the thing is they only seem to be able to compete in their respective kinds of running, so it's, like, really hard. Like, I still think that the strongest argument is just there is, like, the variety of skills that you need to be a trail runner at plus the variety of, like, trails that there are. Like, because there are also that variety in speeds, you know, like the range because you can do super short trail races. You, like, am super long trail races. Like, I think if we just talked about ultra trail race, like, then maybe, you know, we could never decide, but I think we have to just take into account as well. Like, there's like, have you had a vertical kilometer? You know, where we have, yeah, like I would love to be one of those.

Coach Hayley [01:02:37]: Actually, I feel like it would be my niche area where I could actually do okay. Because it seems like I'm very good at running up, but then as soon as I go downhill, like there is a high probability of me falling on my face. So, like, that would

Cory Nagler [01:02:49]: be nice. For those for those who aren't familiar, a vertical kilometer is actually more than a kilometer because you have to actually have to gain a kilometer of vert. Is that right?

Coach Hayley [01:02:59]: Yes. It is. So, like, I think people, like I think it ends up, though, that people are running up, like, you know, 40, 50% grades. So, like, they only end up doing, like, maybe I don't know. I should look this up right. Like like, maybe, like, 3 k distance to get 1 k up kind of thing. But the VOT max demands of that event are, like, insane. Like, maybe that would be a good crossover point where we could like race some of the top, like 5 ks, 10 ks runners and some of the top trail runners up a vertical kilometer.

Coach Hayley [01:03:34]: That might be a good kind of meeting point because there wouldn't be those, you know, maybe the, the kind of trail runners wouldn't get injured because they're not running that fast. So maybe that would be a really good, like, meeting point for the trail runners and the road runners to race.

Cory Nagler [01:03:50]: I I I'm deferring now the, decision on our debate. I I think we should put pressure on world athletics to organize, like, a vertical kilometer between a a top road runner and Kilian Jorne or another trail runner. What do you think?

Coach Hayley [01:04:02]: Absolutely. Let's let's hold off this debate until Ingebretsen and Kilian Jorne race on a vertical kilometer, then we will decide. That would be, like, the deciding factor.

Cory Nagler [01:04:13]: I I would love to see it. I'm I'm super excited to see, on the track, Kirsten Vorholme and Wanda Duplantis duke it out at the 100 meters, which is, of course, neither of their events. Duplantis being a a pole vaulter and and Warholme a a hurdler. I I would love to see something somewhere between a trail runner and a road runner where we find some kind of in between.

Coach Hayley [01:04:34]: Yes. Definitely. I'm also excited for that race of Duplantis versus Warholme.

Cory Nagler [01:04:40]: Yeah. If I think it's coming up in September or something like that. Is that right?

Coach Hayley [01:04:43]: Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I me and my husband have already placed bets on who's gonna win. So we have different Who

Cory Nagler [01:04:51]: are you betting? Divide it.

Coach Hayley [01:04:52]: I think Duplantis is gonna win. Who do you think is gonna win?

Cory Nagler [01:04:56]: I I think Duplantis is taking it, as well. It's just the amount of speed the guy must have to keep setting his world records.

Coach Hayley [01:05:02]: Yeah. Like, he's insane. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [01:05:05]: It's wild. Okay. I think, I think we have to end off on, on a running note. So any any last thoughts before we wrap up?

Coach Hayley [01:05:14]: I I guess just, like, we can't, like, we can't always say discount, like, which is more fun. And I know you might say that roads are more fun, but, like, I have found the fun aspect of trails to be just, like, amazing. It's literally like an adventure, whereas road running was always small performance for me. And I feel like if I tried to have because I was kinda tried to have, like, adventures in road running as well, but it didn't really, like, it didn't really go together so well, you know, like, I always tried to, like, for my whole running journey, I've tried to bring, like, a sense of adventure to my running. But with road running, I found, like, I would be losing something a bit because you do need to do these specific pace workouts. But, like, adventure and trail running just go so well together. Like we can kind of try it like me and my husband can try and go away to like, somewhere where there are good trails and like run somewhere new. And it's like training and it works perfectly as being training, but I kinda used to do the same a little bit when I was a road runner.

Coach Hayley [01:06:20]: And I just used to end up getting annoyed because, like, I would try and run-in these nice places that I thought was like smooth as trails for my road training. And it just I'd end up getting a bit annoyed because it wasn't like, you know, actually, it wasn't like I thought it was, but, like, trails, anything goes, you know, like that sense of adventure and also, like, playing. Like, there's such a sense of, like, playfulness for me. Like, when you're running down a hill, like, trying to go quickly, like, it's so much fun. You feel like you're, like, a kid, like, playing. And I just never really got that with road running at all. Like, road running was always more it was fun, but what was fun was, like, improving time. So getting a new PR.

Coach Hayley [01:06:56]: And I guess maybe that was one of my problems where, like, why I didn't stay in road running because I was quite focused on that, but actually trail running kind of brings me away from that so well. I think it's just such an enjoyable sport. And I think there's something for everyone in it because there are you don't have to run like terrible technical trails. You can run like nice smooth trails or, like, and it takes you to such beautiful places. You can use it. Like, you know, like, even if you can't afford to go on, like, you know, abroad vacations or whatever out of the country, there's still always like, I found so many, like, beautiful local trails wherever you are as well. Even when I didn't live in a great trail running area, I still managed to find some, like, really lovely trails. And, yeah, that sense of adventure and exploration and, like, playing, I never really got that in road running.

Coach Hayley [01:07:45]: So, I think the best athletes have the best fun. Hey. So we've definitely had more fun since becoming a trail runner.

Cory Nagler [01:07:54]: I do think it's fun to go fast too, but I have to concede e even my run this morning, it was on a pretty buffed out trail. I'm sure you could go fast on it if you want, but it does feel like a bit of oasis, and it's it is fun to change it up from time to time.

Coach Hayley [01:08:08]: Yeah. Definitely. Like, I like the whole finding new new routes, new places to run. I like the thing is I tried to do that with road running, but, it often just led to me getting a bit frustrated and annoyed. So, I love that I can just be a bit like, oh, anything goes, which actually ends up with me getting lost a lot of the time, but that sometimes seems like part of the fun.

Cory Nagler [01:08:30]: Yeah. I I might have to concede with you. I I I think maybe people will be even stronger on the road camp than I am, on the fun aspect too, but I'll I'll give it to you that there is just something about being able to change up the scenery and the and the terrain you're running on a little bit. That's a lot of fun.

Coach Hayley [01:08:44]: Yeah. Definitely.

Cory Nagler [01:08:46]: I I think that's a great way to end off. Clearly, road or trails, running is the superior sport regardless. I think we can all agree on that and definitely a lot of fun. So, Haley, I really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks for joining me.

Coach Hayley [01:08:59]: Yeah. Me too. It's been great. And, yeah, running is the best.

Cory Nagler [01:09:02]: Completely agree. Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at cory_nagler. Worth your strap up by searching Corey Nagler. And please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by going to runnersconnect.netforward/podcast. I'll see you on the next show.

Cory Nagler [01:09:56]: But until then, happy running, everyone.