Rediscovering Fun and Fitness: How a Change in Distance Can Help You Find New Passions and Improve Your Performance at Any Age

Guest [00:00:00]: There's no one path of great running. There's no one path of challenging yourself as a runner. Like, there's all there's this huge menu of things that you can do, and that's one of the things that makes it so exciting. And that, like, if you don't really like doing one type of running or training, like, you can do something else.

Cory Nagler [00:00:20]: Running is supposed to be fun, but it can be easy to get caught up in chasing PRs or other training goals. When you find yourself caught in a rut or starting to plateau, sometimes all it takes is a little change to rekindle your love of running. Both of my guests on today's show recently made some pretty big changes with their own running goals and shared how it's helped them to become better athletes and have more fun with training too. Our first guest, Sheree, is a former pro cyclist and a competitive marathoner and ultra marathoner who hosts her own podcast called Women's Running Stories. The podcast where, in her own words, exceptional women runners share inspirational stories about their running experiences. She also recently transitioned to running shorter fast races after realizing that's what she really loved doing. My other guest, Haley, will be familiar to long time listeners, as we've discussed on numerous other podcasts, how she's gone the opposite direction and distances and decided to focus on trail ultra marathons after years of road running. Despite having very different training goals, they each have similar experiences with discovering new passions in running and share what it's been like, as well as how other runners can benefit from mixing up their training goals.

Cory Nagler [00:01:29]: During the show, we talk about how and why these guests decided to change their training goals, how a change can make you a better runner, and the importance of fun in progressing as an athlete. My favorite part about this conversation was the focus on pursuing your passions and having fun with running. I really believe that a happy runner is a fast runner, so I'm really thankful we could put this out there for you to listen to. With that, let's get into it. Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And I'm not only runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget.

Cory Nagler [00:02:31]: Welcome, RC, and I've got 2 very exciting athletes with me who, after years in the sport, are both going different directions and taking up new distances. I'm excited to be joined by Sherry and Haley. Welcome both of you.

Coach Hayley [00:02:43]: Hi. It's good to be back on.

Guest [00:02:45]: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.

Cory Nagler [00:02:47]: Absolutely. I'm super excited to have you both. In part, Sherry, you had first wrote to me and talked a little bit about your experience, about how much you're enjoying coming down to the shorter distances. And I know we've had other episodes on the podcast talking about how Haley's recently taking up ultra distances and loving that. So I thought it would be such a fun conversation to have you both together to talk about your, kind of different experiences going in opposite directions.

Guest [00:03:12]: Sure. I'm always excited to talk about going down a distance.

Coach Hayley [00:03:16]: Yeah. I'm excited to hear, like, an opposite perspective. Yeah. Because I went the other way. So it's gonna be interesting to hear hear how, she went to to the shorter end of things.

Cory Nagler [00:03:29]: Yeah. I think opposite, but with a lot of similarities. Haley, I know we've talked a little bit about your story, so maybe Sheree, if you wanna start, do you wanna give our listeners a little bit of background into what type of athletics you have done and maybe are more focused on now?

Guest [00:03:44]: Yeah. So I'll try and be brief. I've been an athlete my whole life. I started out as a gymnast and then had some knee troubles, so I was a swimmer, and I was really not very good at it. And then I found bike racing, and that was my big love for a long time, and I worked my way onto a domestic professional team in my early twenties. And when I stopped being a bike racer, I dabbled in some other other activities, inline skating and and various other types of athletics. And then I eventually landed on running. And I sort of absorbed this, I guess, advice or way of thinking, like, as you get older, run longer.

Guest [00:04:23]: And I didn't know really anything about running or training or, or racing as a runner. And I I sort of now that I look back on it, I I sort of I very naively sort of tried to imprint my experiences with cycling onto my running, and so I sort of use the ideas from my training as a as a bike racer, in my running in my running training. And I'm really I realized over time that it doesn't really map that well. And so I think this is all to say that I feel like I fumbled around for a really long time, but I did tend to focus on longer distances. You know, people say, you know, run longer. So I was like, okay, well, I'll do marathons. And they seem you know, it was a great challenge. And then I was around trail running a lot.

Guest [00:05:11]: I grew up in California and lived there for a long, long time. And so I had access to all these gorgeous trails, and so I sort of started dabbling in ultra running. But when it came down to it, and one of the reasons I've switched to these shorter distances is that when it came down to it, I am really built to run or to do athletics that are shorter and faster. I just it's just it's how my it's what my body likes. It's what I'm mentally much better at. And so I kinda got to this place where I've been doing these marathons for years years. Like, I've I've done Boston. I've done these great races.

Guest [00:05:46]: I did the Comrades marathon in South Africa. You know, it's 56 hilly miles in South Africa. It's an amazing race. I've done some incredible trail racing. At the end of the day, I was like, I just really wanna do short fast stuff, and there's no reason, even though, like, I'm in my fifties now, and I'm like, why why can't I run shorter and faster? And as I've started to really dig into this, it's like I'm having so much fun. It's really, really hard, but it's really, really fun. And so I I certainly encourage anybody who wants to give a go to shorter distances, like, marathons are great, but they're not everything. There are lots of challenges to be had at much shorter distances.

Cory Nagler [00:06:31]: Yeah. That that's super cool to hear. I I love dabbling at the shorter stuff myself. I I have to ask though, just because we're coming right off of Comrades weekend. Is there just an ounce of FOMO after seeing it?

Guest [00:06:41]: Oh, 100%. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I knew people running, and I was really excited about the women's women's race in particular. So, yeah, it's an amazing experience. It is like nothing else I have ever done in my life. And so yeah. I mean, I do miss it, and I miss going on those really long runs. But for me, that kind of training, it really, really beats me up in a way that doesn't always feel that great to me.

Guest [00:07:12]: And so that part of it, I really didn't miss. So yeah. I but I do miss the experience and especially of comrades.

Cory Nagler [00:07:21]: Yeah. Haley, listening to that discussion about sort of the mental focus with the shorter distances or maybe the body adapting to it more, do you find that relatable with the longer distances you've taken up?

Coach Hayley [00:07:34]: Wow. Yeah. Like, so relatable. It's funny because if you basically put you know, switch the distances that we were talking about, I I'd be saying the same as Sheree because for me, I felt like it was the speed workouts, and all the intensity that beat me up. You know, I had years where I sort of, yeah, I didn't feel great. I had a lot of overtraining. I had so many, like, tendon niggles. My body just didn't seem to agree with all the hard workouts and the road warning, and, I just didn't feel healthy when I was training for for shorter distances.

Coach Hayley [00:08:15]: I mean and I'm including marathon in that for me now. Now I've now I've started ultraracing because, yeah, I just found that that that kind of training, that kind of traditional, you know, speed workout tempo long run week just, like, kind of wiped me out. And I, yeah, my body just couldn't didn't like running at faster paces. My I had, like, chronic high hamstring problems that never actually stopped me running, but it was just like, you know, sitting down was never fun. Every long card in, he was like, no. This is gonna be this is gonna be painful. And my body just did not seem to like training for shorter road races. And I kept trying.

Coach Hayley [00:08:58]: And, yeah, I just when I started to try some of the trail and longer stuff, and I based my training a lot more on sort of getting the elevation and getting the mileage in rather than trying to do specific workouts all the time. I just felt like I could handle quite a lot of mileage. Like, I could handle, you know, 90 to a 100 miles a week and not get beat up and feel really good. And, like, my energy levels would be really great, and I would do kind of a 5, 6 hour run and, like, feel like I hadn't done it for the rest of the day, whereas, like, you know, a 2 hour marathon specific run or half marathon specific long run would leave me, like, feeling terrible. And, you know, I'm sure there's some kind of confounding factors in there. Like, it definitely focused a lot more on the fueling when I started doing ultra racing where I try and get away with, like, not so much fueling when I was doing marathons and and half marathons. But, yeah, I just feel like it sees my body so much better. And I wanted to try something new as well, and I've been doing shorter distance racing a really long time.

Coach Hayley [00:10:00]: Like, I started out as a track runner when I was, like, 11, 12, and just gradually got longer and longer until I was doing kind of half marathons and then marathons in my twenties. And I I sort of felt like I just put every bit of myself into those distances. And I just, tried so hard to optimize my performance in those that there was nowhere left to go. And in fact, I'd gone backwards and it kind of sucked the fun out of it being on a start line and thinking, you know, I'm not at the age where I should be accepting kinda age related slowdown. And, yeah, I'm I know I'm gonna start this race, and there's absolutely no point starting off going for for a PR, even though from a training and an age perspective, there's no reason why that shouldn't be possible, but it just never was. And, yeah, I think I just got a a bit like loss of motivation and, felt like I was kind of beating my head up against a wall. And, when I started racing Trail and Ultra, it was like so much fun. And I felt like I could I could, you know, find stuff to improve on again.

Coach Hayley [00:11:01]: I could, like, find parts of it to work on all the time. Like the fueling, the the technical stuff, the, hydration, there was so many things I could work on. Whereas with short road racing, I kind of felt like there was not nowhere to go. So, yeah, like, kind of similar reasons, but the opposite way around, really.

Cory Nagler [00:11:24]: I I do need to point out just because we're at the extremes here that when you say short road racing, we're still grouping in the marathon there. Right?

Coach Hayley [00:11:31]: I am. Yeah. Oh, I mean, I was, I have to say that in the last few years of short road racing, I was kinda doing more half marathon stuff, but I'm definitely grouping marathon in there now just because of what I have been aiming for it. I think just road as well is just, like, so different to the kind of off road stuff. And that switch has been really important to me as well just because it takes away a bit of that time focus that had started to become quite, quite something that was, like, really bringing me down a bit and taking away my motivation. So just to get away from that was I mean, I think I would still do trail math and and enjoy them. It's that part of it is is very important as well. The fact I've moved away from road running.

Cory Nagler [00:12:14]: Mhmm. And at at at this point, it it sounds like the these distances are treating you each quite well, and you're enjoying them. But, obviously, it can be really hard, especially when your body's so adapted to a certain type of training stimulus and distance, to all of a sudden switch it up. So I'd love to hear about some of the challenges in this process. Maybe again, Sheree, if you wanna start.

Guest [00:12:36]: Sure. I think one of the big challenges for me is that I didn't come from a running background, and so my body has never run fast, like, really fast. You know, like Haley talks about, like, she's been doing this since she was 11, and so she knows what it feels like to run really fast paces, and I've literally never done that in my life. So I think, you know, it comes down to, like, this, you know, nervous system prompt that I've just never had. And so trying to build that in my fifties, I suspect is a lot more challenging than if I would have been working on it when I was in my teens and twenties. So yeah. So that's a big one. And I think just learning all those basics and learning how to train well, I've just never had, like, a coach who was by my side, you know, through high school and college in those formative years.

Guest [00:13:27]: So, yeah, I think that that is a really big challenge. Just even understanding how to get faster, because I like, we all yeah, I think that that is a really big challenge, just even understanding how to get faster, because I like, we all talk about, you know, oh, go do intervals and go do that. But there's, like, there really is a science to this, and there I feel like you can really overdo it very quickly. I feel like you can underdo it very easily too. Like, it just it feels so hard, but your body can handle like, I'm finding my body can handle a lot more than I suspected it could. So I'm just going through all of those learning curves that somebody who had come from a track background would not be going through in the same way. But it also makes it really exciting. Like, I don't have times to compare to from when I was a kid.

Guest [00:14:09]: Like, I did my first track races when I was 51. So for for me, everything was a PR, and I I think that, you know, Haley was kinda touching on that too when you've never done anything and everything is just new and exciting and you just don't have that comparison. And I think it's a really great thing to have as you get older. And, you know, and I have talked to a lot of athletes who are older and they go back, you know, they have a track background and then they're racing masters. And one thing that I've noticed is that they just kind of ditch those old PRs. Like, they just don't think about them anymore, and they do their best today. And so they're just it seems like there just needs to be some sort of a reset in that way that you just you kinda you work with where you're at today, and it's, you know, it's still super challenging.

Cory Nagler [00:14:57]: Do you do you find the speeds coming along, though? Do you feel faster after the shorter training?

Guest [00:15:02]: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Definitely. But it takes consistency, man. This stuff, it just it takes a lot of time, and it's easy to get impatient. So and I do have a coach. So that is really, really helpful because she does remind me that these things take time, and you have to be consistent and patient and keep at it. And find the fun.

Guest [00:15:25]: I think that's the other thing is, like, like, continuing to find the fun even in those times where you're just like, I'm a little frustrated. I do look toward not just the times and the speed for, for feelings of success, I guess. You know, a lot of it for me is that I feel really good. Like, I feel like I'm actually running better, and I work a lot on mental strength, and I work a lot on emotional strength, and I work a lot on around confidence. Like, things that are not that don't deteriorate with age and actually can get a lot better. And I am I train much smarter, I think, than probably I ever have ever really in my life. I you know, when I was a bike racer and I was I was definitely, like, a more is better and lots of dieting. And I, you know, I basically had red s.

Guest [00:16:15]: They didn't call it red s back then because that was a long time ago, but I was, you know, amenorrheic for many years. And I, you know, I did a lot of things that I think were extremely harmful to my body, and now I don't do those things anymore, and I've really cleaned all that up. And especially in this time of, like, I'm going after a sub 20 minute 5 k at 54 years old. Like, it is not an easy task. And so I'm, like, looking at what, you know, what basis can I cover? You know, what rocks can I, you know, look under to gain some extra speed? And, like, there's so much psychological, emotional work to to go after and that that kind of strength to find that makes a huge, huge difference. And, like, formwork and, you know, there are just a lot of other things to go after other than just, like, going out and doing intervals. So yeah. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:17:04]: There there's so many pieces that go into it, but I I think a couple of pieces of the puzzle you covered that are often overlooked are, one, general health and also just fun, I think are big components of success in the sport.

Guest [00:17:15]: I I would absolutely agree. Like, the fun part of it, I do feel myself getting, you know, you know, like, losing a little bit of motivation every once in a while. And, I mean, I really love running, and and I am having just so much fun. But when your times aren't coming down as much as you want them to, or you feel like you're working so hard, or you've just, like, given such a huge effort, and it's just sort of like, oh, I just took whatever 10 seconds off. It, Like, it doesn't feel super monumental. And so, yeah, keeping it fun is super important. And I really listen to not just my body, but, like, my emotional self. Like, if I feel myself getting in that rut, boy, I just I I reset.

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Coach Hayley [00:20:31]: Oh my gosh. No. And I think you know this because we spoke about it so much. I mean, I think most people would probably consider my ultra running career so far a disaster, like myself included to some degree. I mean, it's been fun. It's been so much fun. And, yeah. I mean, it's it's been amazing.

Coach Hayley [00:20:50]: It's been a great learning experience, but it's been like, oh my god. So much has gone wrong. I mean, you remember my first ultra, I got completely lost and ended up going miles, of course, and running the ultra distance thinking I was gonna cross the finish line and no finish line because I'd actually gone the wrong way. So navigation is, certainly something that I need to work on. I've learned that whilst road races are well marked in ultras, they put a little bit of tape in trees that is so easy to miss. So, yeah, that was one disaster. And then, you also know that, about 3 was it about 3 weeks ago? In my first attempt at a 100 k, I quite dramatically sprained my ankle. And since then, I have not, I mean, I've torn a ligament.

Coach Hayley [00:21:39]: I haven't really been able to get back to training just yet. So, hopefully, not too much longer, and I have done a bit of cross training, but it's yeah, it was a nasty injury. Like, ankle spains are apparently one, occupational hazard of trail running. But, yeah, I was not I think the technical terrain has been such a challenge for me because I'm used to running fast on the road, and I think, oh, I can just run fast on this terrain and, like, it'll be okay. But since I've started ultra running, I have, like, the overuse front the overuse injuries have been, oh, so much better. I haven't really felt any of my old high hamstring niggle or the old, used to get, like, an ankle tendonitis. I haven't felt any of those things, but, oh my god, I had when last year, when I first started doing trail running, I had to have couple of weeks off because I fell on my knee and, like, completely kind of bruised, like, the bone and everything. And then I kinda slipped when I was jumping over a rock and tore my glute a bit, like, kind of in October last year.

Coach Hayley [00:22:44]: And then, this most recent ankle one is probably the worst. I think I've just wasn't ready for the amount of acute injuries. Like, yeah, like, my overuse injuries are kind of, wow. Like, I did not know it was possible to feel this good running. But also I'm like, this is what happens when a completely accident and injury prone, an accident prone person starts trail running because I have beaten myself up in in so many ways in kind of more of a, like, trauma way. Yeah. Like, I just need to adapt to that terrain. And I think it just has shown me how much more kind of agile I need to be because as a road runner, I got so good at just kinda going in one direction and kind of, you know, all my marathons as a roadrunner are kind of flat with the aim of trying to be as fast as possible.

Coach Hayley [00:23:29]: And, I just think I lost a lot of agility, a lot of lot of ability to kind of move laterally and to kind of stabilize myself and, like, use my kind of core and my little kind of feet and ankle stabilizing muscles. They're not great. And, like, I thought I could just go into trail running and be like, oh, I'll just run, you know, fast on this rocky hill. And, like, I've just yeah. I just have learned that I need to just, like, chill out and accept that I'm actually not very good at this, and I need to be more careful and kind of work on, you know, my balance, my core, my my agility, and and my strength as well. Because, the kind of running in one direction for a long time that I used to do has made me very good at just that one thing and, not much else. And I need yeah. It's gonna take so much time.

Coach Hayley [00:24:20]: I know that it's gonna take so much time because I am nowhere near where I would like to be with the ultra running. And it's, yeah, it's it's gonna take a lot of time to get anywhere near the level that I was at at road running if I even can. And I'm not sure I can, but I'm really enjoying kind of the journey to doing that and all the learning there is to do. Because because honestly, in road running, I just wasn't finding a way to improve anymore. And that was actually just more frustrating than where I am now, which is being, I think, quite bad at something and, like, having so much room to grow and improve. If I don't completely take myself out before that. You know? Like, I mean, hopefully, there's only, I mean, I still got another ankle. So, yeah.

Coach Hayley [00:25:03]: It's been such a a struggle. And and not only the technical terrain, the navigation, just to to have to fuel and hydrate. Like, I I know from doing my ultra that if I'd been able to continue in the 100 ks and not spray my ankle that I probably would have ended up getting quite dehydrated because I realized even though I only made it to 20 miles, I was already quite dehydrated, which when you're running a 100 k is not a good thing. It was, you know, there's so much more work than he's going to hydration and fueling plan. And whilst I'm getting so much better at that because, honestly, in road running, I was just the kind of, gel here and there, here or there, and I'll be fine. And I cut a lot of corners in that, which probably wasn't the best thing for my health. And I definitely have my own experience with Red S, like Shoei mentioned. And for me, that was during my kind of road and track running time, which is whereas with the ultra, I think, and the trail running, I've sort of completely over that.

Coach Hayley [00:26:03]: But, yeah, just to be able to do that fueling that I want to do, even though I'm now so motivated to do it and much more knowledgeable about doing it. It's hard for my stomach to kind of adapt to taking on as much nutrition and hydration that I need, because I, yeah, I used to run my marathon without drinking anything, quite honestly. Like, I used to just think well, I'd have a few sips if it was a bit warmer, but I thought anything under kind of 3 hours, I can just do it without. And, like, obviously, this was kind of a few years ago, and there wasn't so much known about nutrition and hydration. But when when I look back and think about how I fueled and hydrated during my road marathons, it was pretty terrible. And I think, I do see where I left I did leave stuff on the table when I was doing road map and actually, but I still wouldn't go back to it. At this point, I mean, never say never, but, yeah, so many challenges anyway.

Cory Nagler [00:27:01]: Yeah. Haley, let me know if I'm speaking out of line here, but it almost sounds like with running these longer distances, the the hardest part is almost everything but the running. It's it's the navigation and the hydration and the adapting to terrain. Is that fair to say?

Coach Hayley [00:27:15]: Yeah. I think so. I mean, it's it's all the other stuff. Like, I know I I've been running since I was, like, 11 quite when

Cory Nagler [00:27:30]: you're trying to when you're trying to attack these new challenges, is there anything you can draw from, from your experience at I'll call it shorter distances, even though I know the marathon is on the longer end? Or or any carryover you think from your experience as a runner?

Coach Hayley [00:27:44]: Yeah. I mean, I think one thing I've tried to keep in mind is that speed is always so important. And, actually, I probably didn't focus on it enough in the running. And I think, I've actually come to the conclusion since I've started to do trail and ultras and learnt more things and listened to more kind of podcasts and read more for trail and ultra running. Is that actually I one of the reasons I wasn't able to improve in marathon and aftermath, it sounds strange given that they're the they are what I'm classing as the shortest distances, is that, my speed just actually wasn't good. Like, my pure speed just wasn't good enough, and therefore my kind of 5 k times and my marathon times were getting kinda too compressed. And that was what was kind of stopping me to improve because I was running my, marathons at kind of 5, 10 seconds a mile slower than my 5 k pace, which is just like therefore, improvement could not happen. So, having kinda learned that about why I probably couldn't improve in in the shorter road distances, I'm kind of, like, really it's surprising actually, but I'm actually focusing on speed more.

Coach Hayley [00:28:50]: Now I'm ultra training, in terms of pure speed than I was, like, for the road stuff. Because I just think, a, if you keep, like, your your kind of speed ceiling really high, it just moves up all your paces. And and then, b, like, if you do focus on running faster, you actually become, like, more efficient runner in general because it, like, improves your form. And yeah. So I actually try to keep in, like, strides 1 to 2 times a week, hill sprints, like, once a week, which is something that I probably shoulda lot done a lot more of when I was running shorter shorter distances. But, yeah. So although I knew that, I think, when I was training for shorter distances, I I didn't really do it, but I've tried to, like, apply that a lot more, running ultra ultra distances. And, yeah, like, I'd say that's the main thing that I've kind of carried over from training for road races.

Coach Hayley [00:29:44]: Like I say, I'd love to say that I carried over my nutrition and hydration strategies, but actually they were kind of poor. So rather than carrying them over, I just, like, have completely revamped them. So I think I needed a lot of mental strength when I did, marathons and half marathons for me because marathons and marathons, for me, they were hard all the way. I know, like, conventional wisdom is kinda like, oh, no. You should feel controlled until kind of 20 miles in your marathon and, like, 8 miles in your half. I can honestly say that was never the case for me. Whenever I ran my, you know, my 3 fastest marathon times, I was, like, redlining it all the way. They were, like, hard all the way.

Coach Hayley [00:30:27]: And I think that gave me so much mental strength having to do that, and I could do that. Something in my physiology allowed me to kind of, I think I I basically ran marathons around my lactic threshold, which you're not really supposed to be able to do, but I could do it because that was some, like, unique point of my physiology because, you know, like, I didn't I wasn't able to go much faster in a 5 k or a 10 k, and that's why. But I did mean that when I ran a marathon or a half marathon, like, it was hard all the way. There was no, like, oh, the first few miles are easy. No. It like, everything was hard. It was just for some reason, due to my physiology, I could do that. And I think they're getting like, having to do that just gave me, like, so much mental strength that, like, actually, when I run these ultra distances and they do feel comfortable early on, I'm like, wow.

Coach Hayley [00:31:13]: I'm used to, like, running races being, like, an all out all the way 3 hours of like, 2 and a half to 3 hours of pain, but this is actually quite relaxing and nice, really. So I think, yeah, just the mental strength that training for the road races gave me. And also just all the adversity I kind of faced in terms of, like, my short road racing career because I had, I had a lot of injuries then, like, more like overused stuff. But looking back, it was there was so much struggle. And I think overcoming all those things that I overcame and, like, things like the red s, which affect me for a little bit of time. I mean, it wasn't that severe, which is why why it was quite hard to diagnose. Like, I never had those sort of conventional signs or kind of a lack of a menstrual cycle in that. But, like, it definitely affected my performance and made me feel quite terrible.

Coach Hayley [00:32:03]: And just having to work through all the issues and challenges I faced when I was doing the short road racing have actually made it you know, it's just a new set of, a new set of challenges and sort of different types of injuries that I'm now kinda dealing with. And I think just I feel so well equipped to kind of deal with them, like, because of all my many years of experiencing racing short road races. I think it's just maybe the the specific type of challenge that I'm trying to overcome or the specific type of difficulty has kind of changed. But, it's still just that knowing that you can overcome adversity and that you are kind of, I don't know, tough that you can do it. That's like something that stays in your mind. You think, well, I've done stuff like this before. It might not be exactly the same thing, but I've pushed when things are hard. I've overcame injuries.

Coach Hayley [00:32:55]: I've overcame health challenges, and I can still do this in, like, a new context. So I think that's something really important that I've kind of carried over to these new distances and new types of challenges.

Cory Nagler [00:33:07]: Yeah. I think that's a good good message for just about anyone thinking about a change. I have to comment, Sharee, I saw your jaw absolutely drop when Haley mentioned redlining an entire marathon or half marathon. Do you maybe wanna touch on as an experienced marathon or what your thoughts were?

Coach Hayley [00:33:24]: I don't know how you did it. That sounds awful. I mean Yeah. I think it was. Like, I think that's why I wanted to move away from those distances, to be honest. I remember marathons where I I've I've got to 10 k and I thought, oh my god. This is terrible. And, like but I'm still doing the same pace as the finish, and I don't know how I did it.

Coach Hayley [00:33:42]: And I think maybe that's one of the reasons I perhaps reached a level of burnout because, I mean, they were it it's so hard to to to run like that. And, like, I mean, literally, my 5 k, 10 k paces are, like, you know, just, like, 10 seconds faster than my, like, half marathon pace, which is then, like, 10 seconds faster than my marathon pace. And I think, like, that's such a small difference that it always means that, those kinda longer distances are gonna be hard. But in hindsight, I probably should have spent some more time working on my pure speed and 5 k to help with that. But I just I found it hard to be motivated to work at the 5 k because I didn't really enjoy it. But, hey, I was pretty young when I was doing all these distances. So I probably have a lot of lessons that I would go back and tell my younger road racing self, things to do now.

Guest [00:34:34]: So I do actually have a question for you, Haley. I'm wondering, do you do you not like doing intervals? Is that because I've talked to other people who are just like, oh, I just I don't like doing speed work. I don't like doing workouts. I like to just go out and run forever. And for me, it's always been the opposite. As a bike racer, as a runner, as like, throughout my entire athletic career, give me a good hard workout. I am so excited and happy to do it. I mean, you know, and I'm not saying every single time, like, obviously, there are those days when you're just sort of like, oh, this is gonna be painful.

Guest [00:35:07]: But for the most part, like, give me a hard workout any day of the week over, like, hey. Just go out and do whatever 12 miles at a relatively easy pace. I'm like, nope. I'd much rather just, like, do the interval workout. If I can do an interval workout on the track with friends and get a good pace going, like, that to me is just it's my favorite. So I'm just curious with you. Like, do you not is does that is not is that not fun for you?

Coach Hayley [00:35:35]: Yeah. I mean, that's a really great question. I think what it is is this it's kind of a kind of complicated answer because I think, yes, I have always preferred to just go for a run, but I think a lot of that does come down to, like, the setting because I prefer much prefer to run-in, like, beautiful nature and kind of scenic places. And I definitely have enjoyed doing kind of, hill repeats up like a lovely kind of mountain trail or like fartlecks in a beautiful forest, and I've enjoyed them a lot. And I and I do remember a time where I did really enjoy intervals as well. I think it's hard for me to remember those times because it's definitely the the niggles that kinda came with them that is trying to take in the enjoyment away because, I mean, I just found after everyone, there would be a new sore area, like, oh, one of my old sore areas would flare up. And I just got to the point where I would dread the interval workouts because I knew that something was gonna flare up. And it has been that way for, like, I don't know, 3 plus years.

Coach Hayley [00:36:50]: So it's hard for me to think back to a time when that wasn't the case and think about what my attitude to interval workouts was then. But I can definitely say that, there was a time that I enjoyed interval workouts. But since the kind of, like, strange tender knee kind of niggles have have happened to me, and I have just lost my love for it so much to the point where I would now dread it because because I hate that feeling of, oh, what's gonna hurt today? And I don't know when my body kind of became like that. And there is probably things I could do about it, but I have like, it was almost the fact that it was not the same thing. You know? Like, I would rehab my high hamstring, but then my, like then some tendon in my ankle would kick off or then, like, my quad would feel strained or, like, it would just always be a new thing. And then I felt like it was chasing pains around my body when I was doing this faster running. So it's kinda hard to separate that out because it has happened for quite a long time, and I never really found an answer to it. Like, I saw a lot of, like, experts, and there was never really an answer.

Coach Hayley [00:37:57]: And then yet, I could run 90 miles a week, like, easy pace, but not all easy pace because, you know, when you're going up a big mountain, it's hard. But, like, it was a different, like, it was a different kind of hard. And I just found that the thing that was always limiting me in faster running was an ache or a pain, and that frustrated me so much that I really just, yeah, I just lost my love for them completely. But I also know there was a time when I did enjoy them. And definitely with friends, I used to love, when I used to be part of, like, a track group, I used to love going to, like, Tuesday evening track they had, and I really enjoy that time with with my friends and being, like, competitive and stuff. But, like, when the kind of niggles and aches started, I just would even dread that. So I think, oh, like, people what are people gonna think of me? Because if I'm gonna say, oh, I'm gonna stop this early because I got this pain again. I just I would be I would be almost, like, really embarrassed because it would always be a new thing.

Coach Hayley [00:38:50]: And then they'd be like, oh, but you're running, like, 90, 80 miles a week. Like, why can't you do this? And should you even be running those easy miles? And I'd try and explain, oh, but when I run those easy miles, I don't get those pains. And even to myself, it would sound kind of stupid. So I'd start, like, you know, thinking, oh, what's wrong with me? Why am I like this? And in the end, it was just it was just easier not to do them, I guess. I think I would really like to try and reintroduce them. Like, see if I could handle it, but in a different way. Like, maybe yeah, like, do them less structure and put less pressure on myself and see if that could help things. Like, maybe, you know, just when I'm out on a nice trail, throw in some, like, fartlek or something and see whether I could reintroduce them to us like that.

Coach Hayley [00:39:29]: Because I do know what you mean about, like, loving them and enjoying it, and I I would like to get back to that, but, it was kind of the niggles that that moved me away from enjoying those. But I wouldn't I would like to include them once a week if it was something that I could find a way to do without niggles.

Cory Nagler [00:39:45]: Yeah.

Coach Hayley [00:39:46]: Because it was never, like, big injuries. You know? It was just little niggles that just, like, wore me down to the point where I was like, if I can just run loads and loads of easy miles then and not get like, never have a a like, these aches and pains. Not never, but, you know, then that's what I would do. But yeah. Sorry. That was like a really, roundabout way of answering, but, hopefully, that kinda made sense.

Guest [00:40:09]: Yeah. No. Well, the reason why I I was so curious about that is that I think it's really important. And I look back on my own running and think, like, I think it's really important to follow kind of what you most enjoy. And I think for so long, I was going after this, like, oh, I should be doing marathons and ultras and all this stuff. And and the end of the day, like, what I really love most is what I'm doing right now. And I know other people who are totally the opposite like yourself. Like, you're like, oh, I just, you know, wanna go out on these long trail runs and, and that you'd you know, you do, like, intervals and those sorts of things, but maybe, like, your interests sound kind of like you said at the very beginning of this, like, the same but opposite in so many ways.

Guest [00:40:51]: And I just think that's so important for people to discover in themselves. Like, there's no there's no one path of of great running. There's no one path of challenging yourself as a runner. Like, there's all there's this huge menu of things that you can do, and that's one of the things that makes it so exciting. And that, like, if you don't really like doing one type of running or training, like, you can do something

Coach Hayley [00:41:15]: else. Yeah. Absolutely.

Cory Nagler [00:41:17]: I think people often forget that. But one thing I hear commonly among runners is this idea of, Yes, I I love this, or, the running short piece, or, I'm not not in love with this running longer distances, but I can't run fast. So this is what I have to do. Curious, would you would you have any message for those athletes who feel like the longer distances are no longer where their motivations lie, but they don't know if they maybe have the the talent or the speed for the shorter distances?

Guest [00:41:47]: I I I guess I would always just kind of question, like, who says? Like right? Like, if it if it's fun for you to go try and PR in the 5 k, like, it doesn't we're not trying to go to the Olympics. Like, we're not trying to be professional runners. This is all for personal enjoyment and challenge, and so maybe you're not gonna be that fast compared to the fastest people around you. But does that even really matter? Like, set your own goals and and go after them. I I don't know. Like, I see people setting all sorts of PRs at all sorts of ages, and they're as meaningful or not as you make them. And I do find that people get tend to get really hung up on comparing themselves to faster runners or slower runners or or what have you. And to me, that's just sort of missing the point.

Guest [00:42:43]: It's like, well, challenge yourself and find a place for for yourself to get some joy out of it. And I think being so focused on the times can like, we both talked about here, like, that can really take the joy out of it, and it's fun to hit those times. And like I mentioned earlier, like, I'm going after a sub 20 minute 5 k, but I can honestly tell you if I never make that goal, I'm fine. Like, I I will be fine. I have I am having so much fun. I have learned so much about, you know, being a better athlete and getting better as a runner. I've just I've really utilized this to to be a whole healthy athlete in such a way that I've never explored before. And to me, that is, like, that's really the win.

Guest [00:43:30]: Now I'm getting faster. At some point, I might I hope I reach this goal. But, again, like, if I don't, it's like, I'm running better than ever. So, like, that's a big enough win. I mean, I actually have run a 5 k faster about 12 years ago, but, you know, again, like, this is where I am today, and I'm just I'm having so much fun. So I I do I would discourage people from being so focused on comparing themselves to other people and comparing themselves to the past their past selves. Like, find what challenges you and what brings you some sort of joy and satisfaction. And if you're just beating your head against the wall and you're, like, having like, with Haley, like you said, like, you're getting these aches and pains, like, go do something else.

Guest [00:44:15]: Like, maybe your body needs a break. And and and so yeah. Like and and just kind of more in response to to you, Haley. Like, that just seems like such a smart choice for you to just go do something else for a while and come back to intervals, you know, when you're when you can do them pain free. Because I will say, like, I have gone through periods of just, like, beating myself up, going out and doing those intervals. And and I also, like, super achy, like, little aches and pains all the time, and it just wasn't fun anymore. And that is one of the reasons, like, I first turned to the track. I started exploring, like, running the 800.

Guest [00:44:51]: And then over time, I was I landed on this 5 k goal, and then I'm like, you know what? I'm really gonna gonna give it a go. I'm gonna, like, not do marathons for a while. And I just think, like, trying new things and going after different goals is, like and just finding where the fun is for you. Because why, like, why beat yourself up to do something that really should be about enjoyment? And at the end of the day, I really truly believe it should also be about health, because athletics can dip into being a really unhealthy pursuit if you do it in a way that's not good for you. And, you know, both Haley and I have gone through our periods of, like, red us, which is really, really, really damaging and can have really severe long term effects if you don't catch it, and it's particularly bad for or particularly dangerous for younger runners. But, boy, it can you can fall into those energy deficiencies if you're male, female, if you're 20, 50, 60, it doesn't matter. Like, so, you know and there and I think that there's also the psychological side of that can be very harmful, where you just get down on yourself and you think you're less than or you think that you're you know, I I've talked to athletes who talk about not feeling like like attaching their value as a human being to how fast they run. And I just think, you know, that, like, we really have to get out of those traps, and we can use it as this way to build ourselves up and build our confidence and practice.

Guest [00:46:19]: Like, you know, showing up with some confidence. And, like, those things, like, you know, showing up with some confidence. And, like, those things, you have to practice them over time. And, you know, having confidence and having good a good mental state and also bringing your body to a start line in a healthy state. Like, I think all of these are just great practice over and over and over again. There's no perfecting. So I think if you can keep doing that and finding ways to show up to whatever starting line you want and approach it in those healthy ways, I think it can be really wonderful. But there's all those other traps, and I just would really encourage people to be aware of them and know that like, know where they are and realize, like, there's really no reason to be torturing yourself for this.

Guest [00:47:13]: Like, you know, we aren't we aren't professionals. It's really important to remember that. So

Coach Hayley [00:47:18]: Yeah. Like, I completely agree with with that trap of, like, the time trap and the torturing yourself trap because, I actually you know, there's such this mind body connection. And I actually came to the conclusion that the reason I kept getting all these niggles in my speed workouts is because I was, like, so tense because I was just Yeah. Like, I was just criticizing myself. Why can't you hit these phases? Why can't you do it? You know, why are you not getting any quicker? Why can't you do what you should be able to do or what you used to be able to do? And I think because of that way that I am I am convinced, like, thinking about everything and, I've kind of formed my own conclusion about this, that the reason that I had all these niggles with speed workouts, but was then able to go and run this high mileage, no problem is because in the speed workouts, I would just be constantly criticizing myself and, like, getting in that trap of, like, just, you know, it was miserable. I was just thinking, like, why can't you do this anymore? Why? Like, what is wrong with you? And, yeah, it just caused me to tense up so much. I think my muscles were just and my, like, tendons of body were just getting such a beating from being, like, so tense all the time. And, like, all those stress hormones that I was releasing into my system every time I was doing an interval workout was just, like, damaging me.

Coach Hayley [00:48:37]: And I think that's one of the reasons I'd like to give intervals another go. Now I'm actually less interested in what time I run

Guest [00:48:45]: and just to see if I took a more relaxed approach. Actually, I could be in less pain doing them, if that makes sense. That makes total sense, Hailey. Like, I have gone through that entire trajectory over, like, the last year really specifically. Like, you are speaking to so many of the moments that I have had in my running where I just realized, like, I had such a horrible time with negative thinking, and it was. It was making me so tense. My breathing was just really bad, and I would almost get into these panic states, especially around race anxiety. And I've worked on that a lot, and my running is so much better.

Guest [00:49:25]: And even more than that, it's so much more fun. And I feel so much more fluid as a runner and that mind body connection, I think that it doesn't get nearly the attention that it ought ought to because it is a total game changer. Like, there's no reason to beat yourself up. And when you really realize it, like, I just don't have to do this to myself, it's like, this is so much more enjoyable. It's pretty amazing. Yeah. I I completely hear you on that.

Coach Hayley [00:49:56]: Oh, I'm excited to give it to to channel your attitude and, like, I'm one step behind you. You know? I'm gonna find that relaxed approach to intervals and bring them back gradually, but in a kind of trail focused way. There you go. That's my aim for the next few months when my ankle's better. There you go.

Cory Nagler [00:50:17]: Haley, I'd love to dive into this mindset change. You talked about when you were doing interval training, you feel tense or self criticizing, but that it's become much different with the longer distances. Can you give me a sense what you're thinking about now as you're on these longer distances that maybe is a much more positive mindset and how that might translate over if you went back to the shorter intervals?

Coach Hayley [00:50:40]: Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of the time, I feel a lot more, like, gratitude for my body and for it allowing me to do stuff. Like, when I was doing my ultra back in January, I just remember I mean, obviously, I didn't know I've got the wrong way at this point. So maybe I should have spent less time being happy and, grateful and more time focusing on the room markers. But I just remember being, like like, no pain, just so happy that I was at, like, mile 30. I'm an ultra. And, like, I didn't have those horrible pains that kind of plagued me when I was doing, you know, like, traditional road training. And I just was so happy and so grateful that that was like, oh, just I was smiling as I was running, which trust me, it's not happened to me in a in a kind of road race or interval workout for a long time.

Coach Hayley [00:51:30]: And, yeah, just like gratitude for that. And then also just, I love the courses. I I am so lucky that I've kinda moved to live in this like really beautiful area this year. So like a lot of the time I'm just thinking, oh, where can I explore next? Oh, look at the, like, look at the people's scenery or look at the, like, cute little lambs or they're, like, calves or, you know, there's so much, like, animals and wildlife in nature. And, like, yeah, I'm just, I've like, that's become such a big focus of mine. Like, what nature, what, what route, what wildlife can I see today? And I like, yeah. I think it just it changes my mindset to, like, like, more about, like, play than, like, work really. Like, because it does just feel like kinda playing on the trails or, like, playing on the mountains, you know, like, rather than rather than the kind of work that I always made it to do, road racing.

Coach Hayley [00:52:22]: It's, yeah, it's a completely different mindset that I'm kinda taking. And I I do hope that I can try that with, like, interval workouts where I like, and I've actually I did kind of try it a little bit in, not like consistently, but like I'd occasionally do, like, some hills sprint, like like, more, like, more than just my strides, like, kind of some minute hills or something. And actually, I I yeah. It was, like, experimental because I really didn't wanna sell off any of those niggles when I was kinda training for these ultras. But, like, it yeah. It wasn't it was alright, really. Like, I'd like to kind of progress that and see if I could maybe just hills or, like, you know, maybe, like, yeah, to see if I can keep that kind of grateful and happy mindset when I am doing an interval workout, which won't be like a traditional road running interval workout, but I can see, like, kind of fun play kinda intervals that I could do. Like, like the hill sprints or the, maybe some tempo on a, like, forest trail or something.

Coach Hayley [00:53:23]: Like, I think I just have to keep make sure I like like Sheree says, that that fun aspect is now, like, so central and so important. And, like, it's I've just I have become absolutely convinced that that's what I need to maintain, and that's got to be my main focus is making sure that I'm keeping it fun and keeping it enjoyable. So it's I will be trying to find, like, interval workouts that can kinda keep that play and fun mindset going. That's still, a kind of work in progress as to what exactly that will be. But, yeah, like, I hope to do some kind of shorter fell and trail races over the summer, and that probably will obviously benefit from some speedy workouts. So it's a perfect time to kind of, explore that and see if I can keep this mindset going.

Cory Nagler [00:54:11]: Was was that really the trigger point for you to transition over the longer stuff that you weren't finding this this fun in in play or running? Or was it something else that sort of was that spark to make a change?

Coach Hayley [00:54:23]: I mean, yes. I mean, maybe, like, almost indirectly because it was a lot to do as well with those niggles. Those sort of constant not stopping you running, but just, like, making it unpleasant and yet not fun. That was what kind of, like, almost forced me into decision because I was like, I cannot keep going like this. I'm like, I'm hating it. And, like, so just to, yeah, just, like, to find something that I did not, like, hate. Because I knew I I knew I loved running. I knew I did, but I didn't love it in the way that I was doing it.

Coach Hayley [00:54:59]: And I didn't love the type of running and how I was doing it. And it's almost like it was almost like a blessing that I had those niggles, I think. Otherwise, I would have just become more frustrated with myself, continue to criticize myself, continuing to think of it as work. The niggles were like yeah. That mind body connection. I'm sure it's all linked. I'm sure the the niggles were just like a manifestation of, like, the stress and tension that I was feeling because I wasn't enjoying it. So, like, I'm sure it all comes down to that not having fun and that, like, putting too much pressure on myself and hating it at some points really.

Coach Hayley [00:55:36]: Like, it sounds kind of extreme, and and I feel almost guilty saying it, because I am so grateful when I can run because I've had times when I can't as well. But that is what it was sometimes, just kinda hating it. And, like, yeah, just waking up with a kind of interwhack out on the schedule and thinking, oh, no. I know I'm gonna finish this kind of I'll be, like, hobbling around at the end of the day. But, really, that was I think that was just, you know, like, the manifestation of the pressure and stress I was putting on myself that was I was running so sort of locked up and tight and, with such high levels of stress hormones. I was just peeking out my body. So I think yeah. I agree with what you're saying, basically.

Cory Nagler [00:56:23]: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I I think for somebody like myself who still considers themselves relatively new to the sport being, in my twenties, it's it's really refreshing to hear about how you can find so much fun in doing new things. And again, this is coming from somebody who's relatively young, but I can only imagine it gets that much harder as you get more attached to the sport and you do it longer to take that plunge, even if it might ultimately benefit you and make it more fun. And this is really an open question for either of you, but did you find it was an easy decision to change and it was just time, or was it hard to to really make that move over to another distance?

Guest [00:57:06]: For me, I feel like it was a pretty easy thing, except for the the sort of learning curve of just, like, how do I even do this? And I I will say one of the big challenges about track running is if you've never done it before, coming into it as an outsider is a challenge because there it's just kind of this world unto itself. And if you had come through like, if you've if you've done it as as a young person, like, you kinda understand, like, where do you even find the races? Like, it's it's kind of a closed system in a lot of ways. So there were those challenges, but it wasn't that tough of a decision once I got really into it. I do a little bit miss some of the long runs and the camaraderie. I mean, the social time of it is is something I miss a bit. But I don't I'm just having so much fun that like, I'm excited to beat this 5 k goal so I can go work on my 800. So, yeah, and I also, like, you know, I'm kinda at the point where I'm just like, life is long. Hopefully, I'm taking good enough care of myself, and I don't have some, like, big acute injury somehow that I can just keep doing this for the rest of my life.

Guest [00:58:17]: So I just also feel like there's time to go reexplore other distances. Like, I have definitely not put it out of the possibility that I might go back and run Comrades or that I might pursue trail running again or that I might go run marathons. Like, none of that is I I haven't completely shut the door on all of it. So, yeah, I'm just excited to really focus on this distance that I've never focused on before. So yeah. Yeah. I I I don't find it hard at all. I I will say, I guess, the one thing that I do find challenging is that if you're going after a pretty tough goal, you can't really mess around that much with other types of training.

Guest [00:59:02]: So, like, for me to go out and do, like, a 20 mile trail run would not really benefit me that much, and or it's kinda it's not on my schedule. Let's just put it that way. And I'm pretty dedicated. Like, I'm a I'm a pretty disciplined, dedicated athlete. So if it's not on my schedule, I really do think twice about it. And, you know, and so I I do feel like sometimes I I miss out on some of those opportunities. And I try not to take it so seriously that, that I'm, like, super tied to that schedule. But at the same time, I'm, you know, I am mindful of it.

Guest [00:59:37]: So yeah. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:59:39]: Haley, I almost feel silly asking you for the second time today if it's easy going and running ultra distances. But do you find that relatable that the switch was a pretty easy decision?

Coach Hayley [00:59:49]: Yeah. At first, I just have to comment on what Sheree said because I can imagine that track is, like, so intimidating to come into at a later age because, you know, I was doing it as, like, a tiny 11 year old and then, just grew up with it, really. And, yeah, I just kinda imagine what it's like coming into it kinda later on because it was just like my whole my whole life is like a teenager, basically. Like, I would be at the athletics club, like, most evenings of a week, and all my friends were from there. And we would have different track meets every weekend, and, you know, we'd all gonna coach. And I just, I can't imagine what it's like doing that kinda later on. One thing I will say is my 800 meter PB still still stands from when I've I was 13, and my 1500 meter PB still stands from when I was 15, so they have never been beaten. So maybe I should try and and have another go at one day.

Coach Hayley [01:00:42]: That could you know, that's kind of different from road running as well. So who knows? One day I might kinda go and give that a go for a while. I think one thing this experience is showing me is that I don't want to say, like, I'm never going to do that. I'm never going to do that because I get like I've meant I'm sure I've said on some other podcast, but if you'd asked me, like, 3 years ago about my opinions on, like, trials and ultrasounds, you know, my experience basically was just querying my husband and going, ugh, I would never do this. How can he be running in the night? How can he be eating while he's running? Like, I did not understand it. It was completely foreign to me and it was like it seemed crazy. I think that crazy people do. So, I mean, anyone who knows me is like like fuzzy hilarious that I've changed my tune so much, and they're like, I thought you hated this kind of running.

Coach Hayley [01:01:29]: I thought I thought you said you never run-in the night. Yeah. So I definitely I'm not gonna rule out any future switches to anything, but, I don't think I could beat my 13 year old self. No. My 13 year old self was very, very fast. Like, I mean, I guess that's a message. So a message I'd really like to give is, like, if you think that, oh, I'm not fast. I can't go to the through a distances.

Coach Hayley [01:01:53]: Like, the adaptability of the body just never fails to amaze me. Because when I was a teenager, I would have swore that I was like a fast twitch athlete. Like, my 815100 were, like, you know, better than they could ever ever be now. Like, I would have said that I that my speed was my kind of, strong points, and I thought I was pretty fast, as you probably do at that age. And I was just a completely different runner. And now with, like, all the mileage I've done and over the years, I've I've transformed into what I think I was a lot more of a long distance runner with mostly slow twitch fibres. But I think the adaptability the adaptability of the body is just so crazy. And, like, if I did make a switch back to really short events, I wouldn't ever want to say that, like, I'm not gonna kind of my body is not gonna, like, change so much so that I could do that again.

Coach Hayley [01:02:49]: Because I just from what I have seen in my own running and other people, like, your body can just, like, like, change and adapt so much to, like, the demands that you put on it, like, given enough time. Like, it's amazing what time and consistency can do. But, yeah, I wanna make sure I answer your question. So was it an easy switch? I think I have to say that in the end, I was sort of forced into it, really. Like, I don't want to pretend that I made this decision 100% willingly because it got to the point where I felt I had no choice. I thought I could not continue. I knew I didn't wanna quit running. I knew I loved running.

Coach Hayley [01:03:28]: I knew that that, like, the love I had had for it and, like, all the hard work I put in, you know, since I was 11 was was still there and that I still had that, like, such a love for it. And, like, I did not want to stop, but I didn't feel that I could continue the way I was going. I felt that it was, like, mentally damaging. I felt that my mental health was in a bad place. I had attached way too much my self worth to running. I was pushing my body to a place that I was not happy with. And I knew I didn't wanna continue in that way, but I also knew I did not want to stop running. I knew I didn't wanna stop competing.

Coach Hayley [01:04:04]: And I knew that there were still some aspects of running that I did enjoy. And I thought, like, what do I still enjoy? Well, I still enjoy just going out for a long run with my dog and not thinking about pace and leaving my watch at home. I still enjoy just covering miles and, like, I still enjoy, like, spending time outside. And that all just led me to, like, trail running and maybe and I guess, eventually, like, ultra running kinda came a bit after the trial running thinking. But, like, yeah, it just seemed like, from all the things that had kinda happened with the speed workouts giving me pain, the hating of the interval workouts, but knowing that I still love being out in nature, knowing that I still love, like, a long run with my dog, it just felt like the obvious decision. So it almost didn't feel like I made a decision. It kind of felt like it was the only way to go if I wanted to, like I knew it was not sustainable to keep going from a mental and physical health perspective the way I was. So, yeah, like, it just it just happened because it was the only way it could happen, I think.

Cory Nagler [01:05:03]: Yeah. You 2 are clearly both great spokespeople for making that change and finding the fun and running. And, I do want to just start to wrap things up as we've hit the hour mark. But just to bring it all together for people listening, I'd be curious and this goes for somebody thinking about longer or shorter distances. But if there's anyone listening who's kind of on the edge thinking about whether they should get into new distances or make some type of big change in their running that, might excite them or or or challenge them in different ways, What would be your message to them?

Guest [01:05:34]: You know, the first thing that comes to mind is have some patience with yourself because, like, if it sounds exciting to you, give it a try. But also, I would I would encourage people to take it a little bit slow because especially if you're coming into it maybe in your, you know, let's just say forties or fifties, kind of as a, you know, a little bit more mature athlete is that radical changes can sort of stun your body. And I also think that, like, change does come over time. And like Haley mentioned, like, the body is super, super adaptable, but it doesn't switch over overnight. And yeah. And I and I guess I would just assume that anybody who's trying a new distance is excited to try something different. So it's, like, follow, like, follow the fun, and and don't be afraid of it. And I I do wanna just tell a very quick short story in reaction to Haley saying, like, she can't, you know, like, she can't imagine what it would be like to be an adult athlete coming into track and field.

Guest [01:06:40]: And I will just say that I have found myself in some kind of strange situations in this in this regard, and the kind of the most awkward one was that there was a meet that said it was open to masters, but when I arrived, I realized really it was a kids meet. And the direct the so, So so, yeah, there have been those bumpy moments. So I don't think that that's something that most people will encounter, but it's sort of like, I don't know, be brave and just give it a try. So yeah.

Cory Nagler [01:07:21]: I think be brave is a good message. I I've had so much fun at meets that are all ages and where you see everything from, like, little 10 year olds to people in their sixties, seventies, eighties plus running similar times. So it's a ton of fun.

Coach Hayley [01:07:33]: Yeah. I mean, I I completely agree with all of that. I mean, it's hard to add much to that because I think follow the fun is, like, the most important thing. I definitely just try to stop and think, what was kind of exciting and fun for me. And, also, like, if something is making you feel like you're banging your head against the wall, just don't keep doing it because I definitely did keep doing, road running for longer than I should have. And I and I don't mean I should have approached it with a right, I'm not doing this anymore ever kind of way, but I definitely should have taken a break to do something else before I actually did because I spent a lot of time banging my head against the wall and being unhappy and, like, not getting fulfillment from the thing that was supposed to make me happy and supposed to be a fun hobby. And that's that's pretty bad for your mental health because I did not have any other hobbies. So it was kinda like, well, the one thing that's supposed to be for fun and relaxation is not fun and relaxing anymore.

Coach Hayley [01:08:35]: What do I do the rest of my time? I kind of I kinda work. Yeah. That's like, you know, the thing that's supposed to be fun and relaxing isn't fun and relaxing anymore. That's when the mental health challenges begin, I think. Because, suddenly what is supposed to be kind of your escape and your kind of being you join your day doesn't anymore. And then I think you've gotta make a change there because you've got to have something that is your your kind of outlet for when when you've had a stressful day at work. You can't go from having a stressful day at work to, like, more stress in your hobby. I think I need you to learn that, sooner.

Coach Hayley [01:09:12]: And I guess just also, like, have such an open mind because I wish I'd been more open to trying these new, challenges, new distances earlier. I I regret that when my husband was doing all these cool races, I was just thinking, oh, I, like, I could not run at night or I I couldn't, like, eat something while I run. Like, why not? Like, I wish I'd have asked myself more. Like, why not? Like, maybe just to try it once. You know? And if I did, like, a I because I I did, like, a, a team 24 hour event, before where I was, like, in a team and everyone kind of, you know, there's only 4 people in the team, so you run kind of a lot. But I was like, animate. Like, please don't give me any legs that happen at night. I would do all the day running.

Coach Hayley [01:09:56]: And, like, even then, I, like, I was so adamant about it. But, like, why I think back and I think, why didn't I just try it? Why didn't I just run at night? Why did I think I could not run at night? You know? Like, why did I have such a mental block against that? Like, and then, you know, I remember on, like, my honeymoon, which is actually only last year, which shows how much things have changed in such a short space of time. I remember, we went somewhere where it was we went to, like, a really mountainous area. I mean, I say where I live is mountainous here. It's not. It's like the UK peak district, but I'm not sure if Shuri knows about. But, like, it's not, like, mountains mountains. It's hills.

Coach Hayley [01:10:35]: But we went to, like, a proper mountain region for my honeymoon, and my husband took me on, like, a trial run. And I remember getting, like, so frustrated because he kept having to walk. And I was, like, I was saying to him, this is rubbish. I hate this. Like, we have to walk all the time. This is not running. But now I think it was one run. Why did I get so frustrated? Why did I not? Why was I not, like, open to that experience of, like, having one run where I have to, like, hike a lot and, like, you know, why was I so angry about that? Like, it it doesn't seem to make sense to me anymore.

Coach Hayley [01:11:04]: So I just think having an open mind and trying something, even if you just try it once and you hate it, like, and you don't wanna try it again, then fine. But, like, like, try it just because you never know. You might actually enjoy a lot more than you think because this was, like, 1 year ago, almost exactly a year ago. And I'm thinking now, like, oh, you know, can I sign up for this? I've seen this race. And I'm like, it starts at midnight. I can do that. Like and but a year ago, I would have been like, so I was against the idea of kind of running a leg of a relay in the middle of the night. So I just think, like, just to, like, appreciate how much your mind can change.

Coach Hayley [01:11:41]: And so don't be afraid to kinda try something even if you think that you won't like it. Like but don't then keep doing it if you don't like it. That's, 2 important points, I would say.

Cory Nagler [01:11:51]: I think that's such a good message to end off on. Just do what you love. Ultimately, I think that's really the big takeaway from this episode. Sheree and Haley, thank you both for joining me so much. This was an awesome discussion. Really enjoyed this.

Guest [01:12:04]: Thank you so much, Corey.

Coach Hayley [01:12:06]: Yeah. Thank you, Corey. It's been really fun.

Cory Nagler [01:12:09]: Absolutely. My pleasure. Thank you each. And, for everyone listening, happy running. Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at Corey underscore Nagler. Or through Strava by searching Corey Nagler.

Cory Nagler [01:12:42]: And please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on and consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netforward/podcast. I'll see you on the next show. But until then, happy running, everyone.