RC Spotlight – Steady but not Slow with Frederich Hayem

Guest [00:00:00]: For me, being a smart runner boils down to finding a workable balance in life skills. It's a constant juggling act between work, family, friends, sleep, and training where the key is not perfection, but a reasonable trade off.

Cory Nagler [00:00:18]: That was today's feature athlete for RC spotlight, Frederic Hayam. After only about a year in the sport, he's already notched a BQ time in his very first marathon. He has an incredible ability to listen to his body and put in solid training while still building in flexibility for rest or other life priorities. He tells us in this episode that it's helped him to stay healthy, both mentally and physically, but it's clearly helped him to get faster as well. Fred is a true student of the sport who got into running with no endurance background, but he put in the time to study training principles and ultimately turn his strength fitness into marathon fitness. He is the perfect example to new runners of how patience in the sport will make you a better athlete in the long run. I'll be joined on the show by coach Andy, who first met Fred at one of our training camps, where Fred decided to join RC and commit to working with a team of coaches. Since then, he's had no shortage of impressive results.

Cory Nagler [00:01:13]: Stay tuned, because we're going to talk all about what helped Fred accomplish consistent improvement in his running, including what it means to be a smart runner, and what you can learn from this approach to training. So let's get going with today's RC spotlight on Frederic Haym. Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Andi, welcome back, and for another episode of RC Spotlight.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:02:08]: Thanks for having me. I'm super excited for this one.

Cory Nagler [00:02:11]: I'm really excited to have you back, especially since the last one you were on was about a great athlete, Sabina, who recently had a pretty exciting race result. Do you wanna share a little about that?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:02:21]: Yeah. So this was super exciting. I'd actually been kept checking to see how training was going and kind of following along, and, you know, commenting through stuff and helping her adjust and things like that. But, race week, I was seeing all of her her posts, and I was just like, I can't wait to see how it goes. And, Monday or Tuesday when I signed in, I went to go look at her her race from Saturday or Sunday, because she ran Mesa Marathon. She had this long post, and it was so amazing to read it. She kind of went through all the things and all the things that happened and how she approached the race and all of that stuff. And, so she ended up running a 4 hours and 42 minute, marathon, which she needed to, I think, run a 4:50 marathon, because I think actually in the spotlight episode, we said, think the age group we got the age group wrong.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:03:18]: So she's gonna be 70 for the, Boston that she qualified for. So she needed to run a 4 hours and 50 minute marathon, and so she's a good solid, I think, 7 and a half ish minutes under that. So, feeling pretty good and and hopeful that that means that she'll accomplish the goal, which the big goal for her was to qualify for Boston in every decade. And so, it you know, it's looking like right now that in even if, you know, either way, she did it. So, I think we'll count it no matter what happens with the Boston qualifying. She did it. She she got the time, and she cleared it by a large margin. So super excited for her and wanted to make sure that we gave that light.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:04:01]: Because, you know, her story is amazing, and, she deserves it. So

Cory Nagler [00:04:06]: Absolutely. Congrats to Sabina. That's an incredible time. And clearly, you were on a roll as a coach because I believe the athlete we're speaking about today also has a BQ. Is that correct?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:04:18]: Yes. And he qualified actually, I believe in his first marathon. So, but I, you know, I think it's more credit to him. He's and we'll get into more of his story. But, yeah, he's a he's a pretty fantastic runner. And while he's pretty new to the sport, he, is pretty he sounds like a seasoned runner. You'll hear it. He's he's pretty remarkable.

Cory Nagler [00:04:39]: Absolutely. Yeah. So let's get right into that story. Today, we're featuring an awesome athlete, Fred Haim. And, Andy, I believe you met him just before he started working with RC at one of our retreats. Do you wanna tell us a little bit of that story?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:04:53]: Yeah. So he was at one of the retreats, and I actually remember talking to him at the retreat. And he mentioned that he just had just started running that previous September. So the runners connect Orlando retreat is always kind of early February. So that meant that he he had only been running now at this point for, you know so if he started at the beginning of September or mid September, you know, we've got that month of September, October, November. So 4 months basically before he signed up for this running retreat, which I think even in in and of itself is is something that, you know, I've a lot of runners, that, you know, getting into a new sport can be a little bit scary, and he put himself in the thick of it. He's like, I'm gonna go and learn and do all the things. So he signs up for the retreat.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:05:42]: And then he, when I met him, he started explaining to me about how he got started in the sport. And he'll tell you this, so I'll let him him, roll the tape on that. But, you know, it blew my mind to hear him talk about it. And I was like, I can't even believe you've only been running for 4 months. It was kind of a pretty cool story. But, yeah, we'll let we'll let him share that.

Cory Nagler [00:06:08]: Yeah. I was super blown away as well. And I'll tell you, I was certainly not running, BQ caliber times when I first, got started running in the sport.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:06:16]: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty crazy. So

Cory Nagler [00:06:19]: Well, alright. Well, nobody better to tell the story than Fred himself, so let's roll the clip.

Guest [00:06:25]: My name is Fred I am, and I live and train in San Diego, California. I first started running a little bit more than a year ago in September 2022 when a coworker created a team at a local race. At first, I didn't want to participate because I was not a runner and I thought it would be too hard. But then I thought I have a good strength base so I could at least do the 5 ks, which seemed manageable. However, when I went to sign up, I found out that the 5 ks was sold out. My only option level the half marathon, I was hesitant, but at about the same time, my daughter also signed up for our first half. So I decided to challenge myself and join the team. That was only 2 weeks before the race, so I had very little time to prepare.

Guest [00:07:13]: I did a few runs and hope for the best. On the day of the race, I was nervous and excited. I had no race plan, no watch. All of these were foreign to me. I just ran at the fastest pace I could sustain, and to my great surprise, completed the race in just under 2 hours. I had this Forrest Gump moment when at the beginning of the movie Forrest discovers against all odds that he could run. This is how it started for me. I had no idea that I could run like this.

Guest [00:07:44]: And that's when I really decided to become a runner.

Cory Nagler [00:07:48]: What an incredible story from Fred and Andy, what do you think about this story of Fred going right up to the half marathon in his first race?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:07:57]: You know, the first thing I would say is like that not not 100%, not recommended to train for a half marathon just for 2 weeks. But, you know, everyone's gonna is coming to the sport differently. And so he specifically had a background of being pretty active. He does, he's a he does a lot of sailing, which I think requires some amount of, you know, skill set of of strength and stuff like that. But then he also is very regularly going to the gym. And so, and, you know, there there's something to be said about, you know, some people are just, you know, have the talent for it. And so, you know, he was lucky enough that he was able to, you know, go right into the sport and go from running, not running to a half marathon in 2 weeks. And to do it under 2 hours, I mean, it's it's just it's it's pretty insane.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:08:51]: You know, I would never recommend that any of my clients or athletes or anyone that I work with does, you know, plant like, that's the I wouldn't recommend doing that. You know, it can put you at risk for injury. It can, you know, just be, difficult and not fun, and it could ruin your experience in the sport. But, for him, it was a catalyst to continue. And so I think that's the other cool part. And, you know, his story is unique to him. But, it does, you know, it does kind of, you know, go to show, like, you never know. You you also start you can start whenever and and find your way into it.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:09:30]: So, you know, if you even if it takes, you know, the 5 k being full for you to go ahead and get going on and just try, you know, do it. Why not? Just be smart about it. Listen to your own body. And, you know, he I think he did based on how he described the way that he approached the race. He was like, I'm gonna run as fast as I can for, and just run fast as I can as that I can hold. And so I think that he he seemed that he did a good job of that and wasn't, like, going out the door blazing fast. And so that's kind of how you have to approach in your first one, and and he did that. So, but, yeah, still a very, very cool story.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:10:11]: And I'm so glad that he was he continued with it instead of, you know, being defeated by it. So yeah. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:10:19]: I think we're all for having fun with the sport here at RC, whether that's going out for short run rocks or, if you love jumping into the half marathon and that's what gets you excited. Absolutely. But I think this this paints a picture of Fred as somebody who's, you know, ready to dive right into to everything or or maybe sporadic. Whereas what you actually described to me is that he's somebody who's actually really patient and smart with the sport. So, do you maybe want to tell a little bit more about what Fred's like as a runner?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:10:52]: Yeah. He he definitely like he, when he started running, he didn't just start, you know, running, he actually started looking into resources and information first. And so he was trying to prepare himself to be the best athlete he could from the get go, instead of just blindly going forward through it and and, you know, learning the hard way of how to approach it. And so I think that he did the right things in terms of how he joined it. So he also his first things that he focused on were, you know, doing a form course. I think he joined RC and did a form course. So stuff like that, what which are, you know, really good for long term growth and and also improvement in the sport. And so, he really started with the basics, and, and then he he wasn't running in a sense where he's just expecting outcomes.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:11:48]: He's just let them happen, and he's just followed along and he's he pushes himself, but also listens to what his body's telling him. So, you know, but he's one of those athletes that even from the start when when I first started working with him, you would have thought he'd been running, for years. He was really good about taking his easy days easy and just following what was written. So he's super coachable, which is also, you know, easy for me. That's why I'm saying it's it's mostly him. He does the work and he listens and he and he pays attention to his body and he's really good at pacing. I, you know, he, we we've kinda I'll show him give him some suggestions on pacing, and he nails it every single time. So, you know, he's got a lot of tools in his toolbox.

Cory Nagler [00:12:34]: Yeah. That's incredible. Especially for newer athletes, it can often be hard to not go out too hot and really pace yourself. So the fact that he's gotten that down so early in the sport is telling of how how patient and intentional Fred is as a runner. I know sometimes it can be hard to strike that balance between what you what you really enjoy, in the sport, which for a lot of us is getting into the fast workouts and in the races, but then also being patient and listening to your body. How do you think, it is that Fred manages so well to strike that balance?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:13:09]: He and he talks about this a little bit too in one of his clips, but he's been really good about, you know, doing the things that he enjoys doing outside of running and making time for that. But he also has always been he's always kept up a gym routine. And so I think his gym routine, he just continued to follow with that in his training. And so that helped him to have a baseline understanding of how his body feels when he does x. And so I think that's something that lended really well to his running is to recognize how his body feels when he does a certain activity. And so I think that helped him to to stay kind of even keeled and and patient and, to see that growth. Because one of the things too is anytime you start a new exercise routine there, your adaption process and the curve of improvement is pretty quick. And so it's easy to get wrapped up in, oh, you know, if I I if I I just need to continue to do what I'm doing.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:14:03]: And sometimes that's not necessarily the truth when you're getting started in it. You know, the bare minimum can really see progress in growth. But you could also do things wrong and see progress in growth, but there's an endpoint to it. And so I think for for him, you know, he he didn't see necessarily huge jumps every single time he went out, but he was seeing incremental growth. And so that's the most consistent and that's the best way to grow. And so I think that's also been super helpful as he's seen himself improve. And so he's he's not any he just had the the balance already. And, you know, knowing that his he has things in his life that he wants to do outside of running, also has helped him to not overdo it, you know, not go all in on the training and and all the running and all the miles and all the cause it can get really intoxicating to do, like, to do well and and to get that rush from getting running the perform or performing the way you want and running the times you want, and it can lead to wanting to do more and more and more and getting sucked into the more is better, you know, environment where, you know, it may be not it.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:15:17]: It may be it may not be, you know, there might be there may be ways that we can do more, but we have to do it gradually. And so I think he's embraced that as well and has found when he where his limits are. And so, I think he's allowed his body to kind of, you know, find where where he needs to fall. And so that's super important as well.

Cory Nagler [00:15:37]: Yeah. It's so important. And I think for even the most seasoned runners to really have that long term vision to not overdo things and take those gradual steps to make yourself better is, really telling of somebody who knows themselves as a runner. But of course, as you've alluded to, there's always going to be obstacles along the way. And and Fred's managed to to tackle them with with a lot of patience. So I wanna hear from Fred talking a little bit about that. So I'll transition to a clip from Fred where he tells us both some of the challenges he's faced, but then also, what it is he's doing that, really has helped him to be so successful. So let's pass it back over to Fred.

Guest [00:16:17]: Training and racing have come with a share of challenges. Despite being in good physical shape, thanks to regular gym sessions, the cardio side proved to be a tougher nut to crack. After races, I felt physically fine, but my cardio limits were consistently pushed. Now it seems the physical and cardio aspects of are finally aligning. However, getting closer to my physical limits has come with a price tag, A couple of minor knee issues in recent weeks. It's a wake up call to dial back the intensity and embrace a smaller, more patient training approach. This one learned. Progress doesn't always follow a straight line and sometimes you've got to take a step back to move forward.

Guest [00:17:02]: Even now at 60, I stick to my routine doing all body strength workouts 4 to 5 times a week with a bit more focus on what benefits runners. Honestly, I wouldn't even consider running without keeping up with my strength training. I took a pragmatic approach to enhance my performance. When I decided to dig into running, I didn't want to waste time reinventing the wheel. So I looked at for all articles and videos I could find for insights. I discovered a world that was totally foreign to me and became passionate about it. One of the first things I did was a runners connect running form course. Next, I took a running plan providing structure for my training.

Guest [00:17:47]: A significant turning point came during the running retreat in Orlando last year where I met coach Andy and I transitioned to personal coaching with her. This shift has proven pivotal offering tailored guidance and contributing significantly to my rapid improvement in the sport. Lastly, I try to follow my training plan as closely as possible basis and workout types. I just focus on my training without without thinking too much about the specific race pace.

Cory Nagler [00:18:16]: What a great clip from Fred. And as you alluded to, Andy, it sounds like he has a really strong background and strength. How much do you think that this work before getting into running has helped him progress so quick in the sport?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:18:30]: Yeah. And I think strength training is something that's super important. And I almost would say that he probably started running from a better place than a lot than most runners do. I think even myself, we didn't I didn't start running with strength being at the helm. I was, you know, playing soccer, and we didn't do a lot of strength training growing up. There wasn't a whole lot of that for me. It was mostly just doing the sport. Right? And, but I think that strength training has so many good implications for running.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:18:57]: Like, it helps you with your efficiency in your form. It helps you with your power. It helps you with injury prevention. It helps with making sure you have muscular balance. So there's, you know, a lot of runners that start running can have imbalances side to side, and when they start running, that's when they realize that they have those imbalances. And so when you're strength training, you see those imbalances in real time. If you can't do single leg on one side, we can do it on the other side, then, hey, we gotta work that. So I think that that is a super, you know, helpful skill that he was starting with.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:19:32]: And so, you know, from that perspective, he might have been able to, you know, run with better efficiency, which helped him even with a lower cardio base, to be able to manage to finish. It also might have been helpful in preventing him from getting overly fatigued because he had the muscular strength. So so I think from a lot of ways, like, he could just go a lot easier and still accomplish and run the and run the whole race. And so I think that's why he was able to do that. And he explains, you know, some of the challenges he's had with the cardio feeling, like, the super difficult. I think a lot of people can relate to that. And even when I take a little break from running and had some injuries and stuff like that, even just coming back to it, that learning, that curve of of getting back into a sport or, you know, or just starting the sport can be super challenging. It feels hard.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:20:27]: It feels like the the breathing isn't in sync with your legs, and and it feels hard all the time. And so it just everything is kind of work. And so that that is a that is a challenge that every new runner faces or everyone after injury probably faces, that curve where it's not fun for a while and you don't get to just be you're not comfortable running. And so he, you know, he worked through that. And then when he injured himself, it was a knee injury he invested in, in helping himself know exactly what it could be. I was working with him then. And so we we, kind of investigated what we thought might what it might be, but he preemptively was like, alright. I'm gonna back off immediately.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:21:09]: And at the time, it wasn't like the injury was a key, like a big it wasn't huge. And I think, a lot of runners, the you we have to learn when we're approaching an injury, and when it's just a little ache or pain. But he was on it, like, you know, the immediate onset of it. He's like, you know what? I'm gonna go ahead and cross train my hop on the bike. And for me, it was it took me years to be like, oh, I should stop running when this when my knee hurts, you know, like, I used to have IT band problems, and I would just run. And I'd be like, well, I had you know, I just I gotta finish these last couple miles. And I was stubborn about it. But he was smart from the get go of like, oh, my knee doesn't feel right.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:21:51]: And so sometimes just being able to stop yourself, you know, immediately can have it pay off pays off. You could you can prevent further injury or, you know, anything like that, or making the injury last longer. And so he was able to, I think we were only out like a week or 2 or a couple of weeks, cross training. And when he jumped back in, he really hadn't lost a whole lot. He was doing some good work on the bike. So we were able to maintain fitness, and prevent a long term layoff from running. So he I think we skipped maybe a half marathon we had on the schedule, which was smart, and he was he was good about it. You know, it's hard sometimes to just, you know, let races go.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:22:32]: But he, you know, he knew it wouldn't make sense, so he just was like, you know, I'm a let this one go. And then he ran a PR in his half marathon, I think, few weeks after that. So, you know, it's it's definitely good. You can surprise yourself. You're probably better off being proactive and cautious than not. And he also was thinking in the back of his head, my big goal is Boston. And I would rather be running Boston than be worried about running this moment right now. I think it was in December that this popped up.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:23:05]: So, you know, it was definitely thinking long term, prioritizing his goals, and, you know, ultimately, he got himself back in the swing. And I'm I'm just that that whole thing when we went through that, I was just I even was commenting on his runs like, I'm, you know, I'm impressed by your ability to, you know, listen to your body and just do what was right and was smart. And and here we are, we're back right back to it. So and, you know, and then he needed to get his knee right because, Boston is hilly and can be hard on the knees, and we wanted to make sure we were able to do the work for that training cycle in the best way possible.

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Cory Nagler [00:26:09]: Yeah. Such a smart approach to it, but it can be hard to put into practice. Oftentimes, strength is the first thing to go when, runners are in tough positions or or things aren't going well. But one line that stands out to me from Fred is he goes as far as to say that you wouldn't even consider running without straight work, strength work rather. Now maybe that's taking it a little to the extreme, but, to to what extent do you see strength work and and maintenance as being really essential to keeping running?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:26:39]: Yeah. And I'm I'm a big proponent of of strength training. I, when I was the when I was younger, I was bad about not understanding the importance of strength work. It was more of like a out of I I kind of was, like, a little bit obsessive with it. Like, I just felt the need to constantly be doing it for whatever reason. It was more of a, like, a bad habit. And now that once I kinda was got past that and I I let I let my strength kind of get off the rails, and I wasn't being consistent with it because I'd been living in this long time frame of just doing it out of compulsion. You know, once I broke that, it was like, oh, you know what? I do and then I got injured, and I've been kinda dealing with some of the injury issues, as a part of that for a while now.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:27:26]: I was like, you know what? I I can't let strength training go, especially now as I'm getting older. It's something that I I need to keep up with. And so, I I would I would pretty I would say I agree. He does strength training more than most would, though. I I have gotten into a healthy habit of doing about 3 times a week strength work with 2 heavy days and one more maintenance and and training of, like, my personal imbalances. And so that has been instrumental to getting me back on course. I feel stronger. I feel it's easier to run faster.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:28:01]: So all of those things, I think, just come together. And, I'm glad that he's already has that in his repertoire because it's just so I just I feel like it's just the best thing for I mean, even for your your long term health. I mean, he's 60 now and, you know, he, the one thing that I think keeps a lot of people able to, to walk around and move and old as they get older is the strength training. You know, it's not just applicable to, running. It's applicable to your your overall health, in my opinion. So, yeah, I'm big on, you know, keeping it as a part of the regimen in any way that you can, whether that be 15 minutes every day or 15 minutes every couple of days, whatever whatever you can fit in. I think it's better that you fit it in than run all the miles. Like, I'd rather somebody say, you know, I'm running 30 miles a week, but I'm still getting my strength training in versus somebody who's running 50 miles a week, but doesn't have any time for strength training.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:29:02]: I think that it's just more valuable in my opinion to have both of those be coinciding. So.

Cory Nagler [00:29:09]: Definitely. And I found that to be the case in keeping myself healthy or, or another runner as I see, those who tend to put in the strength work or those who who stay healthy in the long term. I think a lot of us know that we should be doing it, but it's still hard to stick to it. And, Fred kind of touches in his, quote where he's talking about he's not trying to reinvent the wheel. He just researches and sticks to what's known, which is easier said than done. So and it gets it's proof is in the pudding that putting in a little bit of that strength work is gonna help. Are there any other kind of little things you think Fred does really well that are kind of sound principles that other runners should follow?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:29:49]: Yeah. I think I'd say he's pretty balanced in his approach. He also in one of his clips, mentions, the enjoyment in the process. And, so between his balance between of his life and keeping, you know, running as part of his life, but not his life, I think is is important. And then he he enjoys the process, and that includes kind of the everyday things that he's doing besides running. So, you know, I think both of those are super important for your ability to succeed in this work because if it's, you know, I think there's a lot of elite athletes, especially out there that would could agree to this, that sometimes when they go too far all in on running, that it can become even harder to actually make a living at it and and make it a long term thing for them because it's just, there's not a it's just a lot on you. And so, you know, being able to find ways to balance out what you're doing, really helps to make it not only worthwhile, but more enjoyable. And so he's already kind of gotten to that point.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:30:55]: And then, you know, like you mentioned with, not reinventing the wheel. You know, he he does all these he he's I see him put up his his posts and all the things that he's doing. He does rest when he needs it. He's he we taught we he asked me before he goes and does something, which I think is important too. We talked about, you know, what more can can we do? Now? What things can we work on? What things, do we need to work on or address? And so one of the things that we talked about was, should I run more miles? And we kinda decided, like, yeah, we could probably get a little bit more for your aerobic fitness to get more time on feet so that we can see some improvement for the longer distance stuff because after we did a speed block, I mean, he had a lot of leg speed. I think his strength was in his in his speed. And so we we when we switched back to the longer stuff, we were like, let's see if we can incorporate just a little bit more, but we also didn't wanna overdo that balance. And so, in one of the ways that we're also working to improve, especially since we don't wanna increase miles too much, is to add in a a recover or a optional cycling day.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:32:05]: And so that is just gonna help with our cardiovascular fitness, but give our legs a little bit of a break so that we're not, increasing the load on them because in my opinion, I don't think I think one of the reasons a lot of runners get injured is, you know, increasing the mileage too quickly and too big of jumps from season to season. And so I'd rather see, like, 5 miles every block that we train, than really try to, like, pile it on. And so, you know, we're kind of being open to kind of moving things around. And then also, like, the the cycling is optional. So if he's feeling tired, he he can he'll skip it. And so I think he's also very good at being able to say, I don't I don't need this right now. You know, I don't need to do this right now instead of, you know, he he follows his schedule with the also the understanding that, following his schedule, it comes with some flexibility to, you know, tell when you, when your body is saying, hey, let's, let's back off a little bit that you listen. And so, yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:33:15]: Yeah. I love that you speak to this building and flexibility into the plan with this cycling if you feel like it. But one thing I've noticed a lot of the time in in myself is it's very tempting if you see the whether it's a pace range or distance range or an optional cycling, the temptation is always to do that more is more approach. Whereas sometimes as Fred puts into practice, it's better to cut down when you listen to your body. When you're giving those more optional workouts or distances to runners, how do you go about telling them to decide whether it's worthwhile to actually put it out or whether there's instances when that rest might be more valuable to them?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:33:56]: One of the ways I I think about it is sometimes too, I think the willpower to me is something, and I've heard this, I think, from Alexi Pappas where she talked about willpower and how it's finite, and that's kind of stuck with me. And I think about it from that perspective. If anything that you're doing, and of course, there's gonna be days where you don't feel like going for a run, but you're physically fine. But you know, with something like that, where it's an optional thing, if your willpower feels like it's strained that week, don't do it. You know, that's something that it's like, if you're just adding it, like we do have to also keep in mind how our mental fatigue is during a training cycle. You know, you can't you're not going to race well if you're physically fit and mentally fatigued. So, you know, I that's one of those considerations that I put in there for anything that's optional is really listen to the willpower. And then also on top of that, like, if you're feeling tired, think about your surrounding environment.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:34:50]: Did you have a stressful week at work? Did you not get a good night's sleep, you know, this couple times this week? So what are the circumstances surrounding this run or this this optional cycling? And those are some things that I encourage runners to use to help evaluate what they're what they're doing and and when when they need to kind of, you know, not do that more is more approach, in, you know, when we can give ourselves that room to be like, this isn't serving me today. And that's where I think that it can be challenging, but, it gives you a better payoff. And I from somebody I've overtrained a couple of times where I just kind of just kept going and kept sticking to it no matter how bad I felt and how sore I was, you know, those things are warning signs. And so, recognizing what is abnormal for you, I now have like an aura ring and stuff because I'm not very good at listening to my signals. And so now when I see some stuff that and I try not to be too, overly in my data. But if I am feeling a little tired and workouts are like, meh, and I also see that my resting heart rate's creeping up and it's a trend and not just in an, you know, a random, you know, data point that's not following with what's happened in the days before or the days after, then I tend to be like, yeah. And maybe I do need a little, day off. And it and I'm the way I see it is, like, this might serve me to help me to feel better later this week, which will help me feel better the next week, which will serve me when I get to race day.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:36:26]: So, ultimately, the other thing that I try to keep in mind is, as Jack I think this is from Jack Daniels. He mentions, the ideally with training, you're trying to do the least amount, possible for the maximum amount of gain. And so I have to keep my my reminding myself that, like, I'm gonna be better off if I feel, under even if I'm undertrained, I'm gonna be able to compete. If I'm overtrained, I won't be able to compete because it just drains you. So that's the other part of that.

Cory Nagler [00:37:00]: Yeah, I can't remember exactly what the quota is. But I used to have a coach who would say it's better to be 100% healthy and 80% fit than 100% fit and 80% healthy or something along those lines.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:37:14]: Yeah. So it's definitely, yeah. And I've done the thing where I, my coach had to tell me to slow down, because it and I kept doing it even though it was running worse and worse and worse. But it's just so much better to be cautioning on less. You can always surprise yourself, you can always outdo your fitness or your training. That's the way I see it.

Cory Nagler [00:37:37]: Yeah. Yeah. Couldn't agree more. And I think it does take a ton of patience to put that into practice. So I'm gonna play another clip from Fred where he talks a little bit about what the role of patience has been in his training. So let's pass it back over.

Guest [00:37:52]: Before I dove into running, I was already going to the gym at work every weekdays for strength workouts. That foundation turned out to be the game changer, helping me kick off my running journey on the strong notes. For me, being a smart runner boils down to finding a workable balance in life's scales. It's the constant juggling act between work, family, friends, sleep, and training where the key is not perfection but a reasonable trade off. Smart running means knowing when to hit the gas and when to ease up, avoiding burnout and injuries by understanding your own limits. It's not about it's not just about race days, but enjoying the grinds of regular walks out too. Staying smart also involves keeping an open mind, staying curious, and continuously tweaking your approach to improve. In a nutshell, it's about being practical, enjoying the process, and staying adaptable in the pursuit of both fitness and fulfilling life.

Cory Nagler [00:38:58]: Alright. Thank you, Fred. And I love this metaphor of a gas pedal as a way to describe very gradual changes that lead to small or even big improvements over time. Andi, what do you think about this approach of, really being practical in the way you you make progress in the long term?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:39:17]: Yeah. This is definitely the the the thing that I harp on with the clients I work with is that, we're better off dropping we're better off seeing 1 minute PRs every year than we are seeing 10 minute PRs because, I mean, I think sometimes, like, huge I mean, it happens when you're a newer runner. A lot of times you'll see that, like, we talked about that quicker curve of improvement. But, you know, I think that when we can when we take it gradually and we take it slower, we we might even see those bigger PRs, just those jumps, because we're we're and we're not forcing our body to reach any standpoint right now. And the other reason that's valuable is the way that our bodies adapt to training. You know, the whole concept of aerobic threshold and the threshold and training over that. And if you're training for a long distance event, if you're not training at the right threshold, then we're not working the systems that we need for the distance that we're training for. And so being able to be patient and then have be almost on the always cautious on the other side or or taking your time building your fitness allows us to always be in that position where we can see progress.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:40:35]: It allows us that means we're gonna be always starting from a position where we're not, exceeding our thresholds. We're kind of behind them. We're building it and building it and building it, as opposed to kind of trying to butt right up against what that threshold is, and hit it and then be forcing ourselves to try to get more and more and more and then getting stagnated in our growth. You know, being able to stay behind it and, like, be constantly just working to get a little fitter and a little fitter and a little fitter. It's just the most optimal way for us to see consistency and growth. Whereas, you know, when we a lot of runners, like, if they are expecting once they've, you know, first started running, if they drop 20 minutes, and then they get into this expectation that they're gonna drop 10 minutes, and then another 10 minutes, and then another 10 minutes. And it just doesn't it doesn't work that way, but they end up trying to get the training to be what they want it to be instead of letting their body be tell it what it's gonna be. And so I think that Fred has always had this understanding of, like, okay, this is what I think I'm capable of, and that would be my goal for today.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:41:49]: But I'm kind of going to approach it with a little bit of cautiousness, and I'm gonna work my way through the race and see how I feel. And if all things are a go, and I'm on pace, and I feel like I can keep going, I'm just gonna I'm gonna hit the gas at the right time. And and so it kind of even the way he's trained is very similar to the way that he's raced, where he's been really smart about feeling those efforts out and letting that gauge him on how he's going to approach each mile of the race. He's even done some hilly races and run super smart where he's been able to manage the ups and downs and not gotten out too hard or push too hard on the uphills. He's been able to run really smart races that are, you know, keeping a good even effort throughout. So, you know, he's doing a lot of things right in that regard, and it's down to that patience that we talked about of not expecting anything. He's kind of just letting it happen. He's just along he's along for the ride, if you wanna phrase it that way.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:42:52]: He's just kinda sitting there. It's almost like he he says the gas pedal, but it's almost like he's driving an electric vehicle with the or like a Tesla with the autopilot, and the car is kinda telling him what to do and he's just following. In some way, he's very good at just being able to to be there, be in it, and follow however he needs. And, so, yeah, he's that's kind of, you know, he wraps it all up there himself, basically, when he talks there, you know, explaining exactly how he's gotten to this point. So, yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:43:25]: I like that building on the metaphor with the electric car, really adding some layers to this idea of sustainability as a runner.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:43:31]: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's just, like, he's just been so good at just taking taking everything in stride. And, you know, even with the even with the, injury, being able to kind of break gradually and then gradually get back on the gas pedal, is it's been really and it's been I think it's been helpful for me seeing it, as somebody who is impatient often. So yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:44:04]: Yeah. I I think I've definitely fallen trapped to being a little impatient as a runner as well, or or maybe more than a little impatient. But something else that Fred brings up on the topic is the idea of progress over perfection. Maybe I'm overgeneralizing here, but I think distance runners especially tend to have a little bit of perfectionist tendencies, be a little type a. But Fred, maybe this comes from having a different lens with the with the more strength background, but he clearly is able to take that step back and kind of, see the forest and the trees, so to speak. So how do you think runners can approach their training to to have that same vision of being able to make those small little steps over time that ultimately, lead to massive improvement in the long term.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:44:49]: Yeah. I this is definitely something I've struggled with, with the perfection piece of feeling like, you know and I had to I had to caution myself when I start to give myself rules with things that I do with training and and diet and all that stuff. But like we talked about with the flexibility too, it's, you know, you're not being perfect doesn't always lead to success. And so I think that's important to recognize because I tried to do things perfect and that ruined things. So it's definitely not the ideal way to do it. If if we have to be imperfect in order to see progress at times, then that's gonna be the the way that we wanna address it and move forward. And so I think that that's such an important skill for runners to develop that, you know, knowing that we can be successful without things following this straight line, I think is is part of being able to trust the process. Because like I mentioned with the way that you're thinking about your training, that has such an impact on how you do perform.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:45:53]: If you if you were to have, like, something pop up and you're able to kinda take it in stride and be like, oh, you know, I I missed some training. And I'm just gonna let let myself get back in the swing and see how things go. And and then, you know, not worry too much about not being fit because I think what a lot of runners do is that if something happens and they miss training, they get stuck in their head that they're they've lost all this fitness, which the first few runs back you can feel like that, but most likely you didn't lose a lot of fitness. And what they end up doing is trying to prove it to themselves in training that they haven't lost that fitness. So they they essentially start to push themselves to paces, that they don't necessarily need to be running if they if they just listen to their body and just, like, allow their themselves to just get back in the groove. They might just find out that they're just fine, that, they're they there's no need to push. There's no need to overdo it. And so I think that's something that is, you know, a lot of a problem or something that a lot of runners mistake wise make.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:46:57]: And just you just have to be able to learn to trust the process and trust what you're doing and trust your body. You know, physiologically, if you're looking at the science, there's a lot you have to do for you to really, really lose a lot of the fitness in a week or 2. And so and your body can also gain that back pretty quickly. So I think that he's already kind of developed that recognition and understanding, and I think that's gonna serve him for long term.

Cory Nagler [00:47:28]: Yeah. Definitely. And it seems to be already I think it, it was Connor Mance who, earlier this month, won the American Olympic trials, who who said, and this is a quote I've heard elsewhere as well, but the idea of training is for building fitness, not for proving it. And I think it's really going in with that mentality that keeps that kind of 2 steps forward, 1 step back as opposed to what a lot of runners do is they end up making quick progress, but then ultimately losing it all if you're not smart when, when you have a setback.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:48:01]: Yeah. And, I mean, I think even right now, I I fall in that bubble. I've injured my hamstring last fall, and then I've been having some recurrence of symptoms. And, it's probably just from being, like, I wanna do everything that's on my schedule and not adjust even if my body's screaming at me. And so, yeah, I think I love that quote from Connor Mance. It's so important that you approach training that way, that you don't force your fitness. You don't, you're not going out the door to prove to yourself anything. You gotta let your body do the talking.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:48:36]: So

Cory Nagler [00:48:37]: Absolutely. You can't force fitness. I I couldn't agree more. So I I think just before we wrap up here, I wanna kinda finish by talking about some of Fred's future plans for races, and we did kind of, hint at one of those big races coming up. But, let's hear from Fred one more time to talk about some of his big upcoming goals.

Guest [00:48:57]: Having punched my ticket to Boston after qualifying in San Diego Rock and Rolls Marathon in June, my focus is squarely on the upcoming Boston race in April. I'm not stopping there. I also signed up for the Boston to Big Sur Challenge, adding the Big Sur marathon just 13 days after Boston. Looking ahead, the trails are calling. It's my wife and I dreaming of trail running adventures. Beyond the races, my main goal is pretty straightforward, to stay strong and healthy both physically and mentally. Seeing people around me, some younger than me, dealing with health issues is a key reminder why I lace up those running issues. I mean, for the long haul, ready to push my limits and see where the road or the trail takes me.

Cory Nagler [00:49:50]: Alright. What an incredible lineup of races. Boston marathon upcoming in April, and then only 13 days later, the big surge challenge. Andi, were you aware that this was, in the plans for April?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:50:02]: Yeah. He had brought it up, and I was like, man, that's, that's that's gonna be a challenge, especially because it's, you know, Boston's what his second marathon, and Big Sur will be his 3rd. And so, you know, I think from the perspective of recovery and things like that, I mean, we typically are looking at, like, a 2 week recovery period coming off of a marathon. So to bounce back and then be prepared to do a second is is a challenge. It's definitely gonna be a challenge. And for a newer marathoner, that's one of those things that, you never know. I think sometimes in your first marathon, things can just be things can go great. You know, sometimes you approach it with so much you approach the race right.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:50:43]: You're more cautious, and you end up with a great outcome. But, you know, sometimes when you go into your second one, maybe you have a little overconfident knowing what you can do. And so sometimes that can backfire for a lot of runners, but I felt like, Fred is because he's so in tune with himself and his body and how and he's really good about his racing strategy that we would be okay, you know, making this making this a goal. And the other thing that we talked about was, what are your what are your goals between the 2? Do you have one that you would like to perform better in? And so I think we're prioritizing Boston first to kind of, you know, make sure that that one goes well. And it's such a big race that I think he's really excited about, you know, putting things into that. And so the big sir race, we just have to adjust our expectations a little bit potentially, but we never you never know. You know, come Boston is a tough course, and if we don't run it right, it can hit you you can be more sore from it. But, you know, he's been doing all the strength work, so I feel confident that he'll be able to do the double.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:51:47]: And it's just a matter of, okay, well, we're gonna use that time between to essentially try to recover and maintain fitness and just make it to the race day feeling like, feeling capable of of running still, you know, a decent time or at least running it for fun and enjoying it. So, you know, I think that that'll be a conversation we have following Boston is, like, how how are we how's the body feeling recovery wise? How do we wanna approach Big Sur? What do we wanna do pacing wise? What are the goals? What are you feeling like? Those kinds of things. But it'll be it's definitely an impressive challenge. And I'm excited to see how how he does in both. I think I think that it's gonna be such a fun experience for him to do first just Boston in general because it's it's just such an electric race. And then, you know, just following that up with a a race that's just I'm I haven't done it, but I've heard that it's just beautiful. So it'll just be a fun a fun experience regardless. So yeah.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:52:51]: Yeah. I think

Cory Nagler [00:52:51]: you've got he's got the right mentality going into Boston, well prepared for the challenging course based on what you've described. And I think it would be so easy when you have something like that on the calendar to get totally all consumed about it. And yet, when Fred talks about his big goals, it's not all around Boston, he talks about staying strong and healthy physically and mentally. So he's clearly in this to get better as an athlete in the long term. And it seems really counterintuitive. But do you find that having that mindset of slow growth and prioritizing being strong and healthy actually leads to runners ultimately running faster?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:53:28]: Yes, I would say that it just most runners tend to be a little bit less aggressive with the way that they're doing things. And so, they're almost being more cautious and so they're not putting themselves at higher risk for injuries. They're not running into those problems as much, and consistency is one of the best ways for us to see improvement. And if you can be a consistent runner, you most likely are going to be able to see improvement. You're not gonna be injured all the time, which is when we lose. We're not able to we're not able to build fitness necessarily when we're injured. So, running fitness that is at least. And so we we that's like, if we're able to keep consistent without injury, then we're we're going in the right direction.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:54:07]: The other thing that I think about is that, with Boston and Big Sur being so close together, like, yeah, it's gonna be hard, but recognizing that he has that second marathon afterwards will make, I think, the himself make make him a little bit more, I don't know. He'll just be probably racing Boston smarter knowing that if he if he does something crazy, you know, if he if he goes out too hard or, anything just, you know, doesn't follow his race plan that it's gonna affect his second race. And so, I think even from that perspective, even though it is counterintuitive to be like, hey, do 2 marathons back to back, The I think he's just good at being able to make sure that he's not overdoing it. But he I think he also will have that peace of mind of like, oh, there's something next. And that's kind of the theme there that he mentions is that, there's something next. And that's what is keeping him going. And, that something next may just be life, that something next may be the trails, that something next may just be other races or, you know, whatever it is. There's always something next.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:55:17]: And I think that that perspective allows you to not put all your eggs in one basket and go to the extremes for this one thing. Because ideally, yes, there's something next, and we wanna keep working towards and give ourselves space for whatever is next.

Cory Nagler [00:55:36]: So I'm gonna need your honest advice on this one, but, I too will be running my very first Boston in April. Do you think I would run faster if I schedule a marathon 13 days after?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:55:47]: It it depends on the person. Right? So if you can have Fred's, perspective, you know, maybe, you you know, I I mean, if you're if you're like, I wanna do both and I and I wanna accomplish this goal of doing both, then I think even subconsciously, you might be like, alright, I I gotta I gotta be I gotta be careful here. Ideally, though, I wouldn't recommend necessarily doing these back to back races just because it is really tough on the body. The recovery cycle for a marathon, body wise, you may start to feel better within a certain amount of time. But, generally, we your your there's things that are internally are still recovering. That is, especially if you go all out in a marathon, you know, we have physiological things that you may not feel that it still need rest and recovery to grow from. And rest and recovery is also how we get faster. So the adaptions happen when we rest and recover, not when we just do the work itself.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:56:47]: So even just doing races and recovering from them can make us fitter for future endeavors. And so, you know, this is this is a race that, Fred's doing for, you know, the challenge of the 2. But, you know, that comes with a healthy appreciation of what you're doing and how you're going to approach it and what your plan to, how you plan to, what your expectations are, and being able to balance all of that with kind of what you're ultimately out there for. So, yeah, I would say, if you plan to do both, just be mindful, be, you know, you know, still maybe you just plan to race Boston as if you do have a marathon, 2 weeks after, you know, something like that. You may, you may end up surprising yourself.

Cory Nagler [00:57:37]: Doctor. That's a very practical answer. And I think before I give my coach a heart attack, I'll acknowledge I probably don't have the patience of Fred to, treat it properly and do both races.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:57:46]: I certainly could not.

Cory Nagler [00:57:49]: No. Definitely. So for those other runners of us, whether you have Frit's patience, and congrats to you if you do, or for the majority of us who are maybe not quite so patient in our running, how would you maybe summarize some of the learnings that we can take from, from Fred's approach to the sport?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:58:09]: I mean, I would say that, you know, you can pretty much focus on the process. He mentions that, and be patient with it. You know, enjoy it. Make sure that you're checking in with yourself and and making sure that the races and the things that you're doing throughout it are things that you enjoy doing. Make time for things outside of running to keep that balance. And I, you know and like he says with the strength piece, keep keep that those fundamentals in place, so that we not only can run now, but we can run later or we can do whatever it is that we would love to do later in life. So, always remember what's next, always, you know, keep keep an eye on on the fun, all the things like that. And I think, you know, you could learn from Fred, basically, everything we talked about, you know, for how to how to train and how to succeed long term.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:59:07]: So

Cory Nagler [00:59:09]: That's great. And I think I have definitely learned lots from Fred. So, if you're listening, Fred, remarkable hats off to you. And, Andy, thank you so much for joining me today.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:59:19]: Yeah. Thanks for thanks for having me on and, chatting through all this. And, I wanna wish Fred a good luck in all of his races. If you follow along with him, we'll we'll have to maybe update on a future, one of these spotlights on how how it ends up going. But, yeah, good luck to Fred, on all of his future endeavors.

Cory Nagler [00:59:44]: Absolutely. Yeah. Fred, good luck, with Boston coming up in April. Sabina, once again, congrats on qualifying, to the next iteration, I believe, in 2025. And for everyone listening, hope you learned a lot, and, happy running. Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at corey_ Worth your Strava by searching Corey Nagler.

Cory Nagler [01:00:27]: And please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast. Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, and consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect dotnetforward/podcast. I'll see you on the next show, but until then, happy running, everyone.