RC Spotlight – Overcoming prejudice one marathon at a time with Sabina Havkins

Finn Melanson [00:00:09]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn Melanson, and this is the Run to the Top podcast. The podcast dedicated to making you a better runner with each every So we are created and produced by the expert team of coaches at Runners Connect .net where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to hit every runner and every budget. Welcome to another edition of RC spotlight. Today's show is all about an athlete who's absolutely crushing it in the marathon after not even being allowed to run long distances until later in life. Her name is Sabina Hopkins, and this talented runner has proven The glass ceiling is no match for her determination and perseverance. Sabina started running as a kid in high school when women couldn't even have their own sports team. Despite a passion for distance running, she ran the 400 meters to get around the rules at the time against women running longer distances.

Finn Melanson [00:01:09]: She went on to run-in college and is now a 4 time Boston finisher. This is such a fun runner who truly enjoys the sport. We're gonna share some of her incredible story including her experience with prejudice while running in high school, how Sabina has excelled in the sport as a master's athlete, The ways Sabina keeps running fun while training for challenging goals, and we'll hear what valuable lessons Sabina has learned along her running journey. So with that, let's get going with our RC spotlight episode with Sabina Hopkins. This podcast is brought to you by MedPro, world renowned concierge nutrition and fitness coaching company.

Cory Nagler [00:01:51]: Head to

Finn Melanson [00:01:51]: metpro.co forward slash rtt to get a complimentary metabolic profiling assessment and a 30 minute consultation with a MetPro expert.

Cory Nagler [00:02:07]: Welcome to our 2nd edition of RC Spotlight. If you have not yet listened to the 1st episode of this new format with Kumar Rao, I highly recommend you give it a listen. He's got an incredible story and is Such a reflective and inspiring runner. Today, we're featuring another incredible athlete, and her name is Sabina Hopkins. Sabina started running at a young age before women were even allowed to run marathons and is now a 4 time Boston marathon finisher. If that's not impressive enough, she's in the 65 plus age category, and I don't wanna spoil her story, but I don't think she's run her last Boston marathon yet. I've got with me today one of her RC coaches, Andy Casarelli. Andy, thank you so much for joining me today.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:02:51]: Yeah. I'm excited. Sabina's story was super inspiring to me when I first heard it, so I'm excited to kinda, you know, share share it with the rest of the our listeners.

Cory Nagler [00:03:00]: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I think her story is incredible. I I will kinda let her start us off by telling a little about that story. So why don't we go ahead and play that clip?

Guest [00:03:11]: My name is Sabine Hopkins. I live and train in Seattle, Washington. I'm a retired physical therapist. I worked at Seattle Children's Hospital. I started running in 1964 as a 10 year old when my mom took me to a New York City wide track meet where it was apparent I was not a sprinter. After college, I was teaching tennis at a tennis resort, and our Tennis director encouraged us to do road running. I then entered my 1st marathon in 1977 where I was Teaching tennis in Keystone, Colorado. And at the time, there's only 4 women in the whole marathon.

Guest [00:03:53]: I run because it helps me to become a better person. I love being outside. It brings me joy and peace. I enjoy challenging myself and finding a way to achieve Hard goals. Running helps me sleep physically and mentally fit and hopefully continues to do so as long as my legs allow me to Keep running. And it has really provided me an opportunity to see some amazing scenery and destinations and meet Like minded people.

Cory Nagler [00:04:30]: Wow. I am so glad Sabina took her tennis coach's advice because clearly running is a good fit for her. It sounds like Sabina has such an appreciation for the sport and a real desire to keep improving. Andy, you've worked with her more than I have. I'm curious, what stands out you most about her running?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:04:48]: Yeah. I think, like, you know, knowing that her story was coming from a time frame where, You know, like, she was one of 4 women on a starting line for a marathon is it's I think it just shows so much of that, There's been such a process for her to get to where she is now, and you can just tell by how she talks about it that she's appreciated Where how it's how it's evolved and changed over time. And I think, you know, being able to go from a place where it was, like, very Different for women in terms of sports to a place now where it's widely accepted and there's many more women on the starting lines, you know, she she's embraced the fact that she's been able to kind of live through that time frame. And I'm sure that, like, being able to just be on a certain line now is So it's probably an appreciation because the way I see it, she's definitely, like, one of our, you know, she's one of the women that laid the groundwork for for myself And a lot of the women that are are currently competing. And so I'm like, if that seems like probably the, you know, the thing that would Motivate me the most is that, you know, as continuing in the sport because you're you're kind of you're making a path forward, I think, is super cool. And, you know, I I would be I would love the the ability to kinda keep celebrating it, and being able to be on the start line and then look around and see how it's Changed and shifted, and I think that's amazing. I love that part of her story, and you and you can just tell that she's she's approaching her training and racing in a way that's Productive and and enjoyable and fun, and she finds new ways to enjoy it. And I know that something her and I talked about was, how she's had to kind of evolve, how she thinks about her training and her racing and, because you're not you know, everyone's gonna reach a point where they're not necessarily PR ing, but What what other ways can you stay motivated and excited and still run, and be excited for the challenges that you have? Because I you know, I'm sure that she's super she's super competitive, you know, a certain extent, but you have to kinda shift and evolve with yourself as you get older.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:06:47]: And, she's done a great job of that, and that's I think goes down to the fact that she's enjoying it and reminding herself process. So

Cory Nagler [00:06:54]: Yeah. And I think for a lot of athletes, that's a real goal. Obviously, there's a lot of those performance goals. I wanna run a faster marathon, But a lot of people are really out here just to enjoy the sport, and it's it's clear she's able to do that. I'm curious, Andy, do you get inspiration a lot from the athletes you coach? I'm sure Hopefully that you're inspired to the athletes as well, but I I have to think that some of that might rip off on you.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:07:15]: Oh, yeah. For sure. I feel like There's so many clients of mine that that, I mean, I I I know what they're capable of. And even then, they'll they'll surprise me and pull things out. And I'll read kind of ways that they've approached racing and every I'll read their race recaps. And I'm always, so encouraged to hear, like, especially when they, you know, when they haven't felt good in a race And they have this mental toughness about them. Actually, my last race, the one I did in Philly just a couple weeks ago, I was, you know, I got The last 10 mile I remember feeling I was feeling a glass 10 miles, and so, but one of my clients, I remember, you know, she was kind of in the similar boat where she didn't feel good around 15, and I had to keep reminding myself of that. And so Sabina is definitely one of those people that, I think about now because, you know, she's, she's someone that I can look for look look to for, you know, how should I approach training as I get older? How should I approach training now? How should I appreciate What I have for me because, you know, she it was a different experience for her, and I, you know, I don't, I grew up with, you know, playing soccer, and sports were just readily available, and I never Bat an eye on the fact that it could be that I that wasn't an option for people, just, you know, 20 or so years before my time.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:08:26]: And so Like that, you know, being able to have someone like her kind of reminds me to be appreciative of the the ability to run, the ability to be Present and on starting lines and competing and doing all the things that I never even had to think about not being an option as a a young athlete. So Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:08:47]: Yeah. I I think I found personally her story so impressive and resonated a lot and really made me reflect a lot on my own running and what I get out of it. So I hope that really for athletes of all ages listening, they'll they'll find this really inspiring. And I'm I'm curious for you, what was it that you found So compelling to come here today and nominate her for RC spotlight.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:09:09]: I think that the biggest thing was That you know? And I don't know if she'll she she shared some of her goals, but, one of her big goals was and I'm sure she'll get into this. I don't wanna spoil it. One of her big goals was to to qualify in the Boston Marathon for every decade that she's been running. And so so far, she's done that, ever since she started running in the seventies, she's run each decade, which is, I think, a really cool way to approach training as you as you shift. And, and so I I loved that. And she also when she she sent me a message, actually, and she was like, this is my goal. Is this, you know, crazy? Is this Ridiculous. And I was like, no.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:09:47]: You know? Like, let's go for it. You know? You never know. You gotta kinda just get in there and just start, You know, start trying and start training and doing what you can. And I think she was she had given me some of her recent times, and, you know, she's she's there's some work that she has to do, but not anything not a ton. And so, she she just kinda hit the ground running and was like, let's let's go ahead and just see what we can do. And she's just been kind of, like, slowly and and gradually listening to her body and approaching it that way. I've seen her now, you know, a little injury flared up and Their physical therapist background, she immediately rested a couple of days and then is right back out there again and and, you know, was listening to her body appropriately, which I think is such an important skill that runners need to develop as as they I mean, this is something I think I'm running into more now is that I have to do more work. I have to be more, preventative.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:10:36]: I do more stuff on the front side, and so she's just kind of embraced that and she's in that space. She's also Said that she's got some friends that she runs with that motivate her and push her. So she said she has I've seen her posts that she has, some her fast friends that she does some of her workouts in and Tries to chase them down, and so that's, you know, also something I see her doing that's, I think, really super helpful, Really helps her to kinda continue to see that progress forward. But, yeah, I, you know, I just felt like, you know, her whole story of how she got into it and, even she even talks about how she the 400 meter, and she was not a sprinter. But she told me that she would she would when they had track workouts, so even when she was a sprinter because that was the only race available, she she would be kinda in last place at the beginning of the workout and then 1st place by the end, and so really showed her endurance. And, So she navigated that period of time instead of just giving up because sprinting wasn't her thing and that was the only thing available. She kept at it, kept going, and and found a way to to kind of use her skill set, which was in the endurance side, to advantage as as it became available to her. And, And so I found that super inspiring from from that perspective.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:11:51]: And then, you know, she's she's definitely still also a student of the sport, which I think is important To always be learning and and approaching things. And and so even though she's been in the sport such a long time, she still is, you know, looking for answers, looking for ways that she can continue to improve. So she messaged me after her most recent race, and she said, hey. My form looked So bad in my photos after the race. Like, what what can I do? What should I do for this? And so we talked a little bit about that and, you know, what kind of things to, to think about when she's racing. So she's she's always trying to seize whatever improvement she can get, and that's that's what it boils down to is when you're trying to run PRs, it's More of the small things after you've kind of been doing doing it a long time, there's little things you have to kind of be a little bit more diligent on. And she's she's definitely that person. So

Cory Nagler [00:12:43]: yeah. Yeah. I wanna come back to this piece of her early running and and being a sprinter because I'm I'm not sure she fully had the chance to cover it in her story, but I think it's really remarkable, the way that it sounds like, I gather that she always kinda knew she wanted to be a distance runner, but was forced into these shorter events because of what's available. Can you maybe Touch on anymore if you have information about that early running and that transition of how she finally did get into marathoning?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:13:08]: Yeah. So she she said it wasn't equal at first when she first started Training, and she went she ended up she tried out for the track team at ASU where she was at in college, and women were not allowed to run distance, Long distances. So she was stuck with the 400. That was pretty much all that she had available to them. So I think that The distance was it 800? It was maybe the longest they could go for a long time, and and then finally, they they were like, oh, no. You know, this we don't actually have any Data or science that's saying that women can't go any further. It was just this long held belief that we were too fragile for it. And and then so then I think once once she got through college and out of college was, I think, when she started really moving into the distance running.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:13:53]: And like she said, she started when she was 10. And she started running when she was in also with Brandon High School when Title 9 first became a thing, and they were allowed to have their own sports teams. But like She said it wasn't it even though they had their own sports teams, it wasn't like it is today, so it was very different. It was she was probably one of, Well, you know, one of the few, maybe one of the only women in a lot of circumstances when there were women's teams and women's sports. And, yeah, like, there she couldn't do the distances that she excelled at. And so, I think that that's definitely, like, something that a lot of people I think the first Marathoner, was it in Boston that the what's her name? I'm forgetting her name. Switzer. Was it 19 72 or sometime around there where they were kinda just jumping in races and hiding, and and finally that led to, women being allowed to kind of Start competing in distance events, but it and then I think the 1986 Olympics was the 1st women's marathon.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:14:52]: So, she was kind of right in that bubble of time through the transition of, okay, women can't compete in sports, but we're gonna hold them back. We're not gonna let them we're not gonna let them have free rein and figure out what they wanna do. And then fine then it became, like, okay, women can't are capable, so let's open this up. So it was kind of, like, think a whirlwind of of change through her high school career to her college career and post collegiate. So

Cory Nagler [00:15:20]: Yeah. Clearly more than capable Because there's there's so many top quality athletes both in in the US and abroad just absolutely crushing it right now. I know you touched goal wise for Sabina that She has aspirations to run another Boston Marathon. Can you maybe touch on why that Boston Marathon is so significant to her and maybe if there are any Plans in the works to hit that b q?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:15:42]: Yeah. I I think she's actually presently working to hit that b q. She's got a race coming up. Let me check that. She's got a race come up here in the next, I think, couple of Months. So, yeah, she's racing the Mesa Marathon on, February 10th. And so that'll be kind of the, the race she's going for her BQ. So hopefully, b q for next year's race, and that'll be her her next consecutive, decade, once a decade running Boston.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:16:14]: She's qualified many years. She said, you know, the 1st time she qualified, it was a little bit different than it is now. You know, the women's field, I think there's more women now competing, in marathons and there was in in in before, you know, she said there was only 4 of them, the one she did. So it's definitely come a lot more competitive, and we're Seeing women really kinda pick that up and they're more present at more races. And so I think that that's that's There's huge significance for her though in in, you know, doing Boston, the last 4 years, that would have put us she would have done it in, what, So 2010, 20 or 2000, 19 nineties, 19 eighties. So that's been once Every decade since it was available to women and which is pretty cool to me, and so she wants to continue that. And, She knows that this year, it might not be an easy. It used to be a lot easier for her to to get that qualifying standard, but she she's, you know, ready for it.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:17:10]: She's gonna do whatever she can, and she's gonna She's, you know, taking trainings day by day and seeing what progress she's making so that when as we get closer, we can adjust and and be and be ready for whatever, becomes available to her on that day. And so we're we're rooting for her. I'm super excited to see how it goes. And hopefully, I she's definitely not one of those people, though. If it doesn't she's not gonna be she's not gonna give up. She'll she'll take another shot, I'm guessing, and, see if she can get it again. She also mentioned, I think she's right on the cusp of, Yeah. So she's 68 presently.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:17:42]: So, she'll have in a couple years, she'll even have some a little bit more time, but I think she's trying to get it in before she hits 70. So That's kind of the significance for the goal right now of what she's what she's hoping for. And so, yeah, she'll be 70 years old if She runs she runs it. So that's kind of, will be exciting.

Cory Nagler [00:18:02]: That's awesome. I think we'll all be rooting for Sabina. Do do you know when the mezzan marathon is taking place?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:18:08]: Oh, yeah. It's February 10, 2024. So coming coming up here.

Cory Nagler [00:18:14]: Yep. Yep. So as we're recording this in December, I guess still a couple months of solid training to get in.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:18:19]: Yep. Couple more long runs, couple more, pretty quality workouts, and And then she'll be there. So, hopefully, she'll be working with that training partner and, you know, continuing to to work on that, the competitiveness in the fitness and all that stuff.

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Cory Nagler [00:20:58]: I know that training obviously in some respects has gone really well for her. She's achieved incredible things. But we all know that training rarely goes exactly according to plan. And I think one of the most impressive pieces about Sabina's story is her ability to bounce back from adversity both In running and outside of running. So I do wanna now pass it back over to Sabina just to hear about some of the obstacles and challenges that she's faced on her running journey.

Guest [00:21:23]: Some of my early challenges and obstacles when I was growing up was that as a woman runner athlete, There were just not a lot of opportunities for coaching or running programs that were inclusive of Women have provided a lot of tools and knowledge, and this was in the 19 seventies and eighties. Most recently, I've just been struggling with the fact that as I've gotten older, I've gotten slower and accepting that is in a Struggle. About 2 years ago, I got plantar fasciitis and that lasted about 18 months and that really was One of my longest injuries and that was quite challenging. And then in Seattle, Long runs and workouts can be challenging in the winter months when it's cold and dark and rainy.

Cory Nagler [00:22:20]: Thank you, Sabina. And I can definitely personally relate to a lot that running in crappy dark weather right now training through Canadian winters. But I think for a lot of athletes, that piece about losing speed with age, will resonate especially. So I'm curious, Andy, for other athletes Who are listening to this and maybe struggling with the same thing, what advice do you have to continue to chase ambitious goals later in life?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:22:44]: Yeah. I think that it just it takes some reframing and, some ability to kind of I mean, we can chase chase goals as long as you can. Continue to See if you can PR and then but I think that the difficulty is that at some point, we won't be PR ing again, and so preparing your mind mentally for that part, and and finding ways to change. I know some athletes will to go ship towards, you know, some different distances. You know? Maybe they'll go longer, do some ultra running or do some trail racing just to ease the transition into that into that space, and then, you know, to go along that with that while you're kind of figuring out how you wanna approach that next phase of training, is just figuring out, okay, what what other ways can I approach racing and and still be about it if the PR is not the only thing? And so we I think Kumar probably talked about this. I've you know, I don't know I know that we have a lot of Athletes at Runners Connect that talk about this, but the age grading, I think, is a really, great tool for athletes as they get older to Still recognize that, yeah, their times might be slower on the clock, but how can those compare to what you did when you were younger? Or How do those compare? Like, where are you falling in the age graded? What times would you be running if you were, say, 20 now? You know? That kind of stuff, I think, is super helpful for just reminding yourself that, like, yeah, that that your your age is going up. It doesn't mean you're you're not you're any less. It's just that, you're you're competing you're having new different challenges that we have to to face.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:24:15]: And if you can recognize that it's similar to, like, running in the heat, you know, like, when When it's hot out, we have to slow down a little bit, and that's fine. And so when we when we can actually get cooler weather, we really get to see where our fitness is. I think the same is kind of applying there. If you were able to go back in time, the fitness that you presently have may be if you use that age grading, we can see kind of what you would be running if you were to able to go back in time and and and use the present fitness for a different time of your life. And I think that's kind of, like, a cool way to approach that is to kind of, you know, race as hard as you can every day and then go pop it into one of those age grading, calculators or whatever it is, and then you can see how fast you ran that day. And I think that that's, the probably the best way to approach that. I think And I am by no means getting in that realm. I'm I'm 33, and but I this is something that I have I think about a lot more now because I am getting older and, you know, for athletes that have been competing and training at a really high level for a long time, we start to see that that leveling off of fitness earlier and say many athletes who maybe started running later in life might.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:25:24]: And so, this is something that's always kind of a little bit on my mind, like, oh, can I still Run a PR and I had to kind of deflect from that? And I know I I still have time, that's not really an issue at all. Something that I know a lot of runners tend to have on their minds when they start getting into that 40 50 year age range where they start to wonder, it's it's kind of like this racing its time, and you're always worried about it, and it makes it kind of makes it feel like you're running out of time. Whereas, you know, we're seeing people like Sabina running into their sixties and and Kumar running into their seventies and all these athletes that are still doing it. And I think that if we approached it that way and you're like, hey. You know what? I I'm not and I'm not running out of time. I might be running out of time for, you know, the specific time that I wanna run. But if you can approach it from the aspect of, like, I wanna run for as long as I can and that's gonna be a healthier way to approach it, then that's gonna give you more longevity. It's make it more enjoyable, because I I know from just trying to run like a standard.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:26:26]: For me, that's been, you know, when you feel like you're running up against the the clock and there's no more time left and you this is there's this is all that is, it's not fun. It's not enjoyable. It's stressful. It makes it more challenging to actually run those times, and so you kinda just don't stop stop kind of trying to put, stop searching for the end of the PRs and start, figuring out, you know, when's the When's the when how do my how do I adjust? Or maybe you even go ahead and start age grading your races while you're still PRing and seeing what those look like, and go ahead and start getting ahead of it. Try different races. Don't just stick with the the the flat fast ones. Maybe you find ones that challenge you in different ways, ones that are maybe a hilly race, maybe one that's, You know, notoriously hard, and you can eat you can go for an age group win or something like that. Those are also, you know, very valid and and Great accomplishments, and so, it's not always gonna be about those times.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:27:24]: And so, it's just it's a it's a changing how you approach and how you, Think about the training that you're doing, I think, is the biggest things that you're gonna wanna tie into.

Cory Nagler [00:27:35]: Yeah. For sure. And and Credit to Kumar for those who haven't listened. He actually did achieve the PR by about 5 minutes at Chicago, but obviously not the norm for everybody who's running into their seventies. I think that's super helpful to to have that reference point. And we can link it in the show notes. Is there a specific calculator you use or or there are several different ones out there?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:27:56]: I that's a great question. I'll have to do some research on that. Let me see if there is So I just typed in age graded, and, like, the first one that came up says run bundle, run bundle.com. It says it has an age grading calculator. I'm trying to see if there's any more, marathon handbook.

Cory Nagler [00:28:20]: Yeah. And and we can link to these afterwards, But we'll definitely put something in the show notes for anyone who wants to reference that if you're curious, how your how your sons may compare to different ages.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:28:31]: Yeah. And I would try out a couple of different ones and kinda just to see if how they compare and find one that you like, and and if you, you know, don't just pick the one that's, like, oh, this one makes me so much faster. You know, pick one that that feels like it's, like, pretty accurate or feels good to you and then, you know, keep using that one and See how see how it goes.

Cory Nagler [00:28:50]: Maybe I'm not alone in this, but I think to me the one that feels accurate, is the one that gives me the fastest time. So I'll I'll try to, to do better.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:28:58]: We'll go with that.

Cory Nagler [00:28:59]: Yeah. Exactly. I'm sure that's the most accurate one. Right? It has to be the fastest.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:29:03]: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Of course.

Cory Nagler [00:29:05]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I know for Sabina, maybe she has used some of these age graded calculators, but it seems like a lot of her goals are not maybe Specific to times, can you maybe touch on that and maybe if there's any nonperformance goals that are, I I guess, relevant at any age really, but maybe especially as you're not looking to PR?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:29:25]: Yeah. I always say so she when she has her her qualifying for Boston is kind of a time related goal, But, which I think is a it's kind of a good thing in a sense of, like, she's not comparing where she was previously to where she is now because she's really just aiming for a time that it it kind of equates, her where she is in her age to Kind of where a lot of athletes of her age are also kind of running in that. So qualifying in that sense for her would be still putting her in that upper echelon of, You know, athletes that are, you know, running around those same times. So it kinda age grades itself. Like, if you qualify for Boston, like, you're kinda in that that space. And so but besides that, you know, I think that she, for the most part, she's she's chasing new challenges. She's changing the way that she's looking at her training like we talked about. And I think also, you know, being able to run injury free is one of the things that she's really in focused on.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:30:26]: And she mentioned in that in her little clip was, She had that 18 month span of, the plantar fasciitis, and so, you know, being able To do the things that she needs to do outside of just running, maybe the strength training or prehab and all that stuff so that she can remain injury free is, I think, probably One of the bigger goals that I think a lot of our athletes in general at Runners Connect have is, you know, if we can stay injury free, that's gonna be the best thing that we can do, especially if We really enjoy running. We don't wanna be always running for a time that could end up making us injured. And so I think she's got a good, grasp on that. She knows when to rest, when and because she knows that the goal is running. The goal is not Always to just, you know, get the work in or do the things. It's to run. It's to run and stay running and can be continuous and consistent with it. And so when you have to rest and be preventative, then that's that's the best way to approach it.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:31:24]: And so, she's got a really good balance on training, and so I think that's really one of the big things that is helping her approach and reach that specific goal, because, you know, especially as we get older, One of the biggest things that, you know, runners can do as they get older is keep a consistent strength routine. That's one of the best ways for runners to stay healthy And to maintain actually a lot longer more longevity in the sport. So, I know that one of the things Kumar was really great at was doing all that prehab and and strength work and the ad, and that applies to Sabina too with her physical therapy background. She knows what to do. She knows how to approach The things that she's doing and then the strength training plays off pays off a big in a big way, for allowing us to just continue to make that progress or stay consistent or not slow down. That's one of the biggest things I was talking to a client of mine who said she's she struggled with getting faster, but she's been consistent whereas over the years, whereas a lot of athletes of her age who aren't doing strength training will start to see the decline. I think that's a huge a huge factor, for that as well. But, yeah, she she approaches running, Sabina approaches running.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:32:35]: You know, she says that running is a gift, And so many of the people she used to run with aren't even able to run anymore. And so I think that that's Something that also motivates her is that, you know, I wanna be able to keep doing this and I wanna be healthy doing it. And so, you know, knowing that, A lot of the people she used to run with are just physically not able to anymore is, something that reminds her of that goal to just be to continue to enjoy it and be able to embrace it and be healthy doing it. So

Cory Nagler [00:33:06]: Yeah. I think that's something to really look up to to to be At that age and instill really getting so much joy out of this board and be able to do it consistently. So clearly there's a lot of things working for her, so I think that's enough about Some of the challenges. Let's let's hear from Sabine about what's gone well in training.

Guest [00:33:23]: In terms of trying to overcome some of the previously mentioned challenges, I've always been interested in sports and medicine and exercise physiology. So In the seventies eighties when there really wasn't that much information, I just did a lot of reading, books and magazines, and Hanging out with other runners to enhance my knowledge and somehow it worked and I was able to improve. Most recently being retired, that's just given me a lot more time for training and recovery and Going to the gym, so that's certainly the benefit of being retired when you're an older athlete. With regards to Overcoming my plantar fasciitis, I was lucky enough to have my knowledge as a physical therapist to help do research on current evidence as well as Get into using some mindfulness through the Headspace app to get into a rehab mindset And just being patient and having the opportunity to do other sports helped me when I was injured.

Cory Nagler [00:34:32]: Okay. There's a lot to unpack there, but it sounds like Sabina attributes a lot of her success to being willing to to learn both from others and from books. I'm curious. How much does it help that coach athlete relationship when you have an athlete who's so eager to learn more?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:34:47]: I think that's it's so important to have, like, the the trust in the, like, the the approach, the trust in how we're addressing things, and, you know, how we're going to manage the the ups and downs of training and all that stuff and being able to share experiences because, you know, for me, even I learned some from my clients about, like, you know, it's okay to either miss Training that's for an injury or you're sick or something, sometimes better being conservative than it is to kinda continue to force things down because at the end of the day, it's Race day that matters. It's not the days leading up to that. So even if you have to miss a a chunk, we can still be successful. It's just kind of how you mentally approach it and how you physically approach it. And so, yeah, I feel like having people that if you're an athlete that is willing to learn And understand and and just give full in and and just trust in the in the program and trust what you're doing is gonna have the most Success and best outcomes, that was something that, you know, when I was younger, I it never occurred to me that my coaches could be There could be ever anything that was not, working well or didn't wasn't the thing to do. You know, I just follow what my coach has said. It never nothing ever interfered with that. When I when I graduated, I continued to work with my college coach because I had such good success in college working with her, so I trained with the team a bit.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:36:11]: And I but I realized after a certain point that I was in a kind of the head space where I was having trouble. You know, my coach didn't run the marathon, so I had to find a new marathon coach. And I had been so stuck in my ways of doing the thing that we've been doing, and I'd gotten too into just overthinking things that when I switched coaches, I felt like I wasn't doing a good job of trusting them in how they were approaching it because it was so different than what I'd done before. And so that's something that I know I struggled with for a period of time, and now it's like I kinda just don't wanna worry about it. I just wanna be able to trust and do whatever my coach tells me to do. And so I think, you know, Sabina has that headspace of just being able to kind of Use her knowledge, and I think there's there's a give and a take when you're working with an athlete. You have to the athlete has to trust you, and you have to trust the athlete, And there has to be some amount of, like you know? I I like to work with my clients to a certain extent. You know? Like, I I will explain what I'm thinking, And then I will let them tell me what kind of things they know works for them or or what they're thinking, and then, you know, we can kinda have that conversation so that we have that mutual trust.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:37:22]: And so I think, you know, Sabina is one of those people who's asking questions, and though she knows a ton, she probably knows More than I do, you know, with all of her reading and all the experiences that she's had, but she's still interested to learn more. And I think that that's you know, sometimes having a coach also gives you Different perspective or different eyes on it than what you're used to thinking and doing and seeing. And so I think that that's where some of the coaching relationship helps too is just to kind of like, Oh, have you thought about this? Have you looked at this? And those are sometimes some things that can help, you know, help us to to get out of, like, a a bubble if we're kinda, like, in stuck in one spot. And that's something that, you know, I think she's willing to learn too is is kinda be in that space. Even, you know, just hearing about how, you know, training has evolved and her and her willingness to be able to evolve with it, which I think is hard because, You know, I you know, back in the day, what was it? I think, like, there's different coaches like Ledyard who is really, really, really mileage focused, and then You have coaches that are have now approached to different ways. You've got all these different methods of training now. And, you know, back in the day, I also thought alcohol was was Good to drink while running is a good fuel source, and now we know that's the complete opposite of the case. And you kinda have to let of things that maybe you believed in the past and kind of move with them and and be open to learning those new things.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:38:48]: So I think that's something that Sabina has done A really good job in, and that's, I think, partly because she's always been a student of the sport and and looking into things and researching and and understanding and being open to change and trying new things. And that's also super important with, aging athletes because, you know, what you could do when you were 20, it might have worked really well when you were 20, but, like, You have to approach training that way now, not necessarily. You don't just because you ran 60 miles a week when you were in your PR doesn't mean you have to run 60 miles a week now. It's all about kind of flexing with where you are in life and being able to be flexible with that, and you can still be successful as long as you're keeping, You know, a decent balance on all the stressors you have coming in, and, sometimes those stressors are just your ability to recover. As we get older, our ability to recover is a little bit Less, we're not we not do as we are not able to as well. And she's essentially now in the state of her life where she's kind of Like a pro athlete where she can eat, sleep, run, you know, go to the gym, do all the things, take naps, Whatever she needs to do in between because she's got this flexibility now, and so that's helping her to enhance that that, Ability to recover and all that good stuff, but it's still something she has to manage, differently than she did when she was 20. And so I think that's something to to keep in mind, but, you know, that's a little bit aside from the the coaching side of that. But, Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:40:15]: Yeah. And then just I I think it's all super relevant both to to training and outside of it, that that interaction piece and being willing to learn. And Even for myself, for for those who don't know, especially by marathoning standards, I'm pretty young and and still in my twenties, but I still find myself sometimes falling into that trap of Always assuming that what's worked in the past is is gonna work now, and that's that's really not the case. I guess both with Sabina and maybe also with other athletes, What does that give and take or back and forth look like in order to figure out what's actually gonna work best for an athlete in the moment?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:40:46]: Yeah. So one of the things I always try to do is is understand what the athlete's skill set is. You know, if speed work comes really easy to them, then I wanna capitalize on on that and find different ways to address their their weakness, which is their endurance maybe. And the same thing applies to, like, if somebody is really good with the endurance side, but the Speed work isn't as easy for them. Like, how do we we had to approach that slightly differently. And so, I like to hear, like, okay, what workouts have you enjoyed in the past? Which ones have worked well for you. And then how can we take those workouts and include them so that there's still some of that confidence building in within their training and then, you know, use those to also help them to feel better at these ones that they don't feel as good with, and how we balance that out. So we have to have a good amount of, like, both things.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:41:35]: I also if someone is you know, says, oh, you know, this workout really works really well for me, but, know, maybe that's not the right workout for marathon training. We can always kinda I try to give them the the information and the insight and the things and the tools and this the information that I believe is the ideal and then give them the, you know, if but if we wanna try this, we can. And then this is just why I might not necessarily. And then I give them kind of the ability to kind of reason through that and see, like, okay, what is the best Solution for both of us to remain confident in what we're doing. And so in some circumstances, you gotta hold your ground as a coach and be like, nope. This is 100%, like, this is what we have this is what we should do, this is what we need to do. And, most of the time that we don't run into that if you have that mutual trust. You know, I've had a a client who was sick in the in the taper and or it wasn't if you're not sick in the story, sick.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:42:29]: He had done a a race and felt Pretty beat up from it for a bit after that race, and he was approaching his marathon that was coming up in a few weeks. And I was like, alright. You know what we're gonna do is we're gonna take We're gonna take 2 or 3 days off just right away. It was in the taper, and, I think he was a little bit panicked by that. He's like, oh, no. Don't know if I should do that. How is that gonna mess up? My taper will be too much. And I was like, trust me.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:42:52]: If you run those 3 days and you don't feel any better, it's not gonna matter good we did in the taper. It's not gonna matter on race day, and I'm, like, just, you know, give yourself this space. And so sometimes it's just kind of, like, Reminding them of what's the goal and it's not the day to day. And so it's kind of like but it's always that we gotta we gotta have we had to we had to talk through that. We had to He had to understand what why I was saying it and then kind of grasp it. And sometimes it takes just going through that experience to then get to the other side of it and be like, you know what? I was I was totally fine. You know? And I I can do that, and it's okay, and it's not gonna Well, that's one of those things I find is one of the values of having a coach because I was never one of those people that could just trust I'd be stressing about missing a day of training, and until I actually did it or until I actually shifted the way I was doing things and saw success, I had a hard time believing it to be true. And so a certain extent, you kinda have to just gotta give in a little bit and be willing to try it.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:43:53]: If it doesn't work out, like, that's okay. You know? Training's there's no perfect way to train, I don't think, for any athlete, which is which is why I believe that there needs to be some give and take because Everyone's a little bit different, and then how your head feels about the things that you're doing impacts how you it actually works. And so it there's so many variables in training that there's no one size It's all. So it's kind of like, let's be flexible with ourselves, and and that kind of stuff, and let's be like, work together as coaches and athletes.

Cory Nagler [00:44:22]: Yeah. For sure. I think there there has to be a lot of trust there to really be able to listen from to your coach and and get a lot out of that relationship. And I'm sure for Sabina, her background maybe makes that a little bit easier being forced into a lot of these sprints, which obviously is not ideal for marathon training. She she probably is used to adapting her training.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:44:41]: Oh, yeah. For sure. I know. I'm I'm it's interesting because she did say she said now looking back at what, she mentioned to me, and, She said she once had a 10 by 400 meter workout, and, she was the last in the few reps, and then she was in the front by the 10th one, which just goes to show, she'd already learned at that point, even though she was in a sprint program and training for sprints, that, she was better off taking her not go like, Taking the distance approach to that type of workout. You know? Like, distance runners would prefer to get faster as they go along. Sprinters are trying to maintain top speed for as long as they can and and, you know, all that kind of stuff. So, I can imagine that she had to kind of just be okay with being in last place at the beginning And, buying her time being patient, and I you can tell by by, you know, the things that she said in her answers that she's used to that. She's used to having to be a little bit patient.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:45:32]: I wonder too kind of what was that like for her with her coaches, you know, seeing her go from, you know, last to first over the course of a a workout. Like, what What kind of perspective did that give them on, you know, how she trained versus some of her teammates and stuff like that? So super interesting to me.

Cory Nagler [00:45:51]: Yeah. For sure. I I'd be especially curious what was going through their coach's mind, because I think in today's world, the coaches would probably immediately go, this is probably an athlete more suited to longer distances. Whereas at the time if they were even thinking that since since it wasn't even a concept for women to be running those distances.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:46:06]: Right. I know. That's It's wild to me to think like, okay. Well, we've come such a long way, and it's not even been that long. That's the wild thing. It's like, you know, seeing Sabina currently competing and and, you know, being an RC athlete and thinking about the fact that, like, in her lifetime, she's seen The complete evolution of running, you know, for women, and I think that's such a such a cool experience that, that she's been able to be part of. So

Cory Nagler [00:46:34]: Yeah. And you touched on that patience piece. That's something she's clearly exhibited. And I think it is a really important takeaway. So I I do wanna close off this episode just by going to Sabina one last time and letting her chat a little bit about what the lessons are that She's learned through her running.

Guest [00:46:50]: I think my biggest lesson and greatest joy is just Becoming grateful and appreciative to be healthy enough to run no matter the speed or the distance. Running has taught me to be kind to people in my life and to try and share My love and knowledge and skills with other people to help other people maximize their potential and Participate in this wonderful sport.

Cory Nagler [00:47:24]: Sabina, I absolutely love this answer. And one of the reasons is when I gave this prompt To Andy to then pass over to Sabina. What we asked for was one of the biggest running lessons, And she chose to give us such such a more broad and universal lesson about kindness and gratitude, which I think is so so important. So, I personally am learning from Sabina on this show. Andy, what do you take away from it? And are there any other key lessons you think people can draw from Sabina's running story?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:47:55]: Yeah. I you know, it's interesting to think, you know, she probably has so many interesting stories From her beginning of her running career, you know, knowing her she's when she told me, like, it wasn't equal, like, what was that experience like for you? And to now come out of it on the other side being more interested in, you know, how she makes other people feel about the sport, which I think is So it's just so profound and so you know, she's just it shows her character and her genuine kind of enjoyment of the sport and really wanting to To bring that to other people. And she has so much to share and so much to bring to the sport that I'm I'm it's I'm so glad we were able to kind of Share her story and really put that out there because, you know, she's a pioneer for women in the sport. She's a great example of, you know, continuing to just, you know, always be a student of it. She's a great example of, you know, a way to approach training, All through through whatever challenges are thrown at you, and she's always had this positivity to her. I mean, even when she talked about having the 18th months of plantar fasciitis. You know, I I just had injuries a few injuries this past fall, and for the most part, it hadn't been in been mostly injury free for a long time. And, and she she, you know, she talks about it in a way that's like, Oh, well, it happened, and I I got through it.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:49:19]: I found a way through, and I so she just has a positivity, and I think that's a huge Piece of, her success and and why she's still at it and why she's still enjoying it. And so, you know, I I encourage other athletes to Find ways to be positive about whatever, you know, space they're in or find ways to, you know, change if they need to change it. Like, if there's something that's causing you to not be about it. What what should you shift or what should you, do you to to make that, you know, go in the direction that you're hoping for? So so, yeah, those are kind of the lessons I felt like I took from it. Yeah. She's a she's a great example for, I think, a lot of runners.

Cory Nagler [00:49:58]: Yeah. And I think my favorite part is that gratitude piece because it would be so easy for her to just be absolutely bitter and say, you know, I be a 10, 11 time Boston marathon finisher if I were able to do this earlier. And oh, darn, I had a plantar fascia. But she she as you said, she totally brushes over this stuff. It's It's a mindset of this happens, and I just absolutely love and appreciate this sport.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:50:20]: Yeah. I I didn't share this story, but I was reading it on our thing. I didn't I forgot to mention it, but, her the she actually got into distance running because her boss said she had to run up Camelback Mountain, this is when she was working as a tennis instructor, in order to get a 50¢ raise. It's just like What a wild way to, like you gotta grow on up this if you wanna make more money. Just as, like, such an interesting way to get in the sport. And then now to have so much gratitude, you know, just from, like, having something like that kinda invigorate your Your, your desire to run long distances, I think is super funny and super interesting. So

Cory Nagler [00:51:02]: You you had kinda joked earlier about her being Professional runner, but I I think maybe she is if, if she's running distances to get a pay raise.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:51:10]: Right? She really I mean, she's the probably one of the first, Probably one of the beginning, athlete distance runners to be sponsored without knowing that she's being sponsored. Yeah. That's so true. She kinda is.

Cory Nagler [00:51:22]: Yeah. Yeah. No. It's it's Just incredible in every way, both from the start of first story to now. Just wanna close it out just by hearing a little bit more about kind of what's in the pipe works. We touched on Boston 2025. Hoping to qualify. Is there anything else that's on her mind in in terms of what she wants to get out of the sport?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:51:39]: She you know, she's retired now, like we mentioned, and so she is just excited to just enjoy running as much as she can now and and just do so, you know, I think she's even if she doesn't qualify for Boston in this next go coming up in February, she's gonna could probably continue to chase it or see if she can She can get it in an another race, and and then either way though, she's just she's she just wants to continue to run and have fun and enjoy it for as long as she possibly Cam, which I hope is for many more years to come. She's, such a bright spot in sport.

Cory Nagler [00:52:14]: Yeah. Absolutely. I'm so inspired by her story and I will definitely be keeping an eye out for those mezzan marathon results. So hopefully we'll all be cheering her on come February.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:52:23]: Yeah. We'll have to I let me let's let's see what the the time she has to run. I believe it's well, Let's see. Boston

Cory Nagler [00:52:32]: I guess there's probably 2 times. Right? There's the minimum cutoff, but then based on the last results, you probably need a bit of a buffer.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:52:38]: Yeah. Yeah. For real. That was that'll be interesting next year. Is it how much will it will it change? Will there be any shifts or anything like that? But as it stands right now, she needs A, sub, 4 hours and 35 minutes. So, keep your keep locked on there, and and, hopefully, we'll we'll see a A 4 hour, maybe 4:30, that would be fantastic. But, hopefully, either way, I think she'll be excited to run a sub 4:35. And Even if that doesn't get her into, Boston, I think she'll be excited to say she'd be cute and and did it and all that good stuff.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:53:12]: So hopefully, we're we're hoping for the best.

Cory Nagler [00:53:15]: Awesome. Yeah. That's an incredible goal. I'll be rooting her on. And thank you so much, Andy, for coming on.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:53:20]: Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Finn Melanson [00:53:36]: Thanks for listening to the Run to Top podcast. I'm your host, Finn Melanson. As always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. Please consider connecting with me on to Graham at Wasatch Finn and the rest of our team at Runners Connect, also consider supporting our show for free with a rating on on the Spotify and Apple Podcast players. And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with our guests, and premier access Test the contests and giveaways, and subscribe to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netback/podcast. Until next time. Happy trading.