RC Spotlight – Becoming your best self with Catie Markesich

Finn Melanson [00:00:09]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn Melanson, and this is the Run to the Top podcast. A podcast Dedicated to making you a better runner with each and every episode. We're created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect Welcome back to the Runners Connect Spotlight where we highlight amazing achievements from runners just like you. Today's athlete proves that success in running comes from more than just race times by setting goals to run challenging races while helping other runners and enjoying the sport. She competed in numerous marathons and ultra marathons during 2023 with aspirations to do big things on the roads and on the trails in 2024. This athlete's name is Katie Markisich, And I'm excited to learn more about her running story in today's episode. This podcast is brought to you by MetPro, world renowned concierge nutrition and fitness coaching company.

Finn Melanson [00:01:20]: Head to metpro.co forward slash r t t t to get a complimentary metabolic profiling assessment and a 30 minute consultation with a MetPro expert.

Cory Nagler [00:01:37]: Welcome back, RC, and welcome to another edition of our RC spotlight. We're featuring another exciting athlete today, Katie Markisich. And I'm so pleased to have with me, Alex, To come talk about her running journey and goals in the sport. Alex, welcome back to the show.

Alex Ostberg [00:01:54]: Thanks, Corey. It's my pleasure to be here, and I think these athlete have been some of my favorite podcasts yet. I feel like so often we just talk about 1 isolated moment of success, but really tracking someone's journey Longitudinally through their career, it really it gives you so much more material to talk about and dive so much deeper into the story. So I think this one in particular is gonna be really, informative, and intriguing for our audience.

Cory Nagler [00:02:18]: Yeah. I think it'll be a really exciting one. And I know last time we spoke for an RC spotlight, this was on Kumar who Had maybe actually been relatively new to the sport, given his age and all the success he was seeing. In terms of Katie's running, Do you know how long have you 2 been working together, and and what's her background like in terms of time in the sport?

Alex Ostberg [00:02:40]: Sure. So, Katie's actually been an RC member since 2018, I believe. So she's actually she preceded me on the platform. So I've only been coaching now for the past year and a half, And and she's been around longer than I have on the platform itself. If you if you trace the story all the way back, though, she started running in high school, And she, you know, she had some some early struggles with the sport, both mentally and physically. I think The the sport was challenging, and it offered a few obstacles that she had to overcome early on. And she kind of expressed when when we were kind of asking her about our journey that she really wanted to run-in college, but she just didn't feel like she was quite mentally ready to do so because it's kind of a pressure cooker environment. So she actually joined then the triathlon team or the club rather, and she actually did an Ironman, I believe, at age 19.

Alex Ostberg [00:03:26]: So I was like, wow. That's that's interesting. Not too many people are doing Ironmans during their college years. That's normally, like, a later in life type of deal. And then she's really been active ever since. I think her her mentality And her her aspirations have shifted a little bit more from the shorter distances to now being really prolific in the ultra scene. We'll talk about this extensively on the podcast, but she's routinely doing 50 milers, 100 milers, and then she has her sights set on even a 200 mile race potentially within the next year. So There's there's a lot there to work with, and I think the first thing that caught my attention when I first was following Katie's progress on on the platform was I felt like every other week, she was doing an ultra.

Alex Ostberg [00:04:04]: And I thought, in the beginning, wow. Like, how how does someone even just manage to recover from that? And I was thinking a little bit more about, like, the nuts and bolts of the training. And then, you know, I think as we really dug into her story, there was so much more there to uncover. And I think, You know, from from the perspective of, you know, how her running journey has also shaped her her own personal growth and development, It was it was really a common thread we saw throughout her whole story, so I'm really excited to dig into that. And lastly, I think her her vulnerability in sharing today is something I really appreciated. I mean, As you go through life, you realize that everybody's fighting a battle that you may know nothing about. And I think her willingness and her courage to share her story, Both the highs and the lows, the, you know, the ups and the downs, really adds that much more context, and and And, you know, I'd say passion to the story too because it's so much more personal for her.

Cory Nagler [00:05:01]: Yeah. That passion really does come through in her story, and I found it super relatable for myself because I actually dealt with some injuries coming out of high school and then didn't really wanna join some of the University college teams and was involved in the tri club, but she blows me out of the water with some of the ultras and Ironmans. Certainly wasn't running anything of of that distance. But Despite all these incredible races she's doing and you kind of alluded to this, it seems like she's almost more focused on just bittering herself and helping others, Which is truly incredible. So I'm wondering for yourself, when you think about success in running, what's the first thing that comes to mind? And then I'm wondering, has Katie shaped or changed that in any way?

Alex Ostberg [00:05:43]: Absolutely. I think it's so easy in the sport, Because it's it's it's it's something that's highly measurable. Right? Typically, like, the races that we are doing, the the the 5 k's, the 10 k's, the marathon, like, Everything that you think about is the number when you cross the finish line. But the reality is is that crossing the finish line and that momentary sense of achievement Really is momentary. Right? It it is 1% of the journey. And I think it's gotten to a point where maybe this conversation's a little bit cliche, but It's really about understanding the difference between the process and the outcome goals. Right? And I think it's about understanding that the journey is just as much about Developing your identity as it is achieving the outcome goal that you set forth. Right? And and I think really understanding And, digging deeper into Katie's story help helps me realize that, you know, for her personal journey, her her kind of guiding north star Has been personal growth throughout the entire thing, and running has kind of helped her achieve that.

Alex Ostberg [00:06:40]: And a lot of times when I work with athletes, You know, everybody is always fixated on the goal race. It's like, give me a 12 week marathon plan, so that I could try to get a Boston qualifier or break 4 hours or thing like that. But I think oftentimes, we forget about some of the more important questions, the ones that really hit us on a deeper level, which is what kind of runner do you wanna be? What do you want your relationship to be with the in the coming years. How do you want this sport to actually change your perspective, not only on how you run, but how you live your life? And I think I've been lucky enough to Have had coaches, and experiences that have helped kind of shape that broader context so that I can see what life looks like beyond the sport, but also understand how running fits into the bigger picture. And so I always say, you know, if you answer those big questions first and then let the races happen along the way, you're probably gonna have a much more fulfilling and meaningful journey. So I don't ever like to prescribe a play that's exclusively for a race because there's always more to the story, and that's especially true in Katie's case.

Cory Nagler [00:07:36]: Yeah. There there's so much to this story here, and that's really our goal on on these editions of RC spotlight is to tell stories that go beyond just the running itself. So I think that's enough about hearing us ramble on. Let's get to Katie's story, and I'll let her take it away with some of her running background and goals in the sport.

Guest [00:07:53]: My name is Katie, and I live and train in Milton, Vermont, which is about 20 minutes north of Burlington, Vermont. We have a lot of trails here and I feel like I find new random trails every couple of months which is so fun. Well, my parents will say I've been running since I was born. Was that child on a wrist leash in the grocery store. Running the 1 mile run-in gym class in 5th grade is where I feel like running started to become a thing for me. I remember enjoying the feeling of pushing hard and feeling confidence from that. At the end of indoor track junior year, though, I had a minor injury that turned into a slightly bigger injury and a huge bout of depression which took me out of spring track. Alongside all of that, I was battling an eating disorder, not my first, where I was losing weight much too quickly, which I'm sure my injury fed off of because they always do.

Guest [00:08:40]: Through a lot of hard work, I've done a lot of emotional healing since that time, And now I wholeheartedly preach that running is meant to bring joy to our lives, not self judgment or embarrassment. To me, Success in the sport is feeling physically and mentally healthy. It is challenging myself and seeing growth in some way, which doesn't have to be physical. In fact, while I really enjoy feeling fit, I have to say that the mental power I gained from some of the big challenges is even more exciting.

Cory Nagler [00:09:08]: That was great. As you listen to that, Alex, what stands out to you most about Katie's backstory as it relates to her current dedication and passion for running?

Alex Ostberg [00:09:18]: Yeah. So I think it's always interesting to kind of see somebody's origin story in the sport. Because I think when we're younger, there's just Fewer expectations, and you do think you do things more for the sake of just being playful and fun, and you're just kind of chasing goals whether it'd be haphazardly or on in an unstructured manner. Like, that that sense of free play is something that's just so evident with, like, in childhood, maybe slightly into adolescence. And it is really interesting to kind of because as I think this happens with most people, when they get really, really good about something really good at something, their relationship with that activity starts to change. They be they start getting rewarded for it. They start that starts to becoming starts to become an all encompassing identity for them. The people in their lives are always gonna be asking questions about that.

Alex Ostberg [00:10:00]: So all of a sudden, What started off as, like, a fun activity that you're pursuing can turn into something so much more than that. And I think really balancing and understanding how those passions Organically developed and then sometimes can maybe push us a bit too far is really informative. And I don't think there's a lot of, I think we're always, like, told how to, You know, go find your passion. But, like, how exactly do you do that? Right? Like, that's the question I always ask myself. And I think it sometimes, Pursuing these passionate activities does come with a cost, and I think that became clear. And and I think Katie was very open and and and willing to admit where this did push her a little bit too Bar. Right? I mean, her her view what what she viewed as important to her in the sport started to turn into struggles with, you know, The depression and and the body image, and I think she had to realize that what she was once pretty good at, her relationship with that was gonna have to change. If she was gonna feel like it was meaningful to her, and it was actually going to not be detrimental to her overall mental health.

Alex Ostberg [00:10:57]: So understanding that evolution, I think, is something that probably everyone can relate to in some sense. When you get to a certain level of proficiency, a lot of those things that used to be fun in the beginning can start to feel more like a chore, and they can start to feel like more of a burden on you. And sometimes the success you experience early on, we start getting anxious about the further preservation of that success because we we've been rewarded for it, and we and, like, this is so core to our identity. And, you know, changing that relationship is almost like mourning a part of yourself that you need to let go of. And so I I'm I'm always fascinated with these stories because, Like, I've I've been through similar versions of this myself, and I think every runner on some level can relate to this. So to me, that's really what stands out with With Katie's backstory, and I think the story would be incomplete without talking about where she's come to present day. And I think we'll certainly touch on that too, so I want to make sure that that we we highlight Some of the positives that come of it as well.

Cory Nagler [00:11:47]: Yeah. That really stood out to me as well as that kind of interplay between life Experiences and in goals and then goals in running. And I think it sounds like both of them kinda shape each other. So putting this more Broadly in terms of, like, goal setting, since I think both aspects are are quite important to Katie. And and as we've alluded to, you know, we're we're really focused on more than just running here. What role do you think goal setting plays in personal development in running, but then Also in life as well or or, you know, those aspects that go beyond running.

Alex Ostberg [00:12:20]: Yeah. I think goals overall are are extremely valuable. They they give you a sense of direction in life. Right? Like, you need to know what you're working towards so that you're not stumbling around aimlessly in the dark. So I think I think goals are really good at at setting direction, but I also think sometimes goals can get in the way. Because when you become really, really good at something, They create kind of this, like, either or conflict. Like, either you achieve your goal and you promise yourself you're gonna be happy or you don't and you're miserable. And it really leaves no space in the middle for, like, what happens if you don't achieve your goal, but you you're still executed the race well or, you know, You you actually ran a really good time given the conditions.

Alex Ostberg [00:12:58]: Maybe it was pouring rain or really windy. So I always encourage runners to maybe to expand their definition of what success looks like in the sport. And I think anyone who's been around long enough begins to appreciate that that is really necessary, because there are so many things that are outside of your control in this sport, namely the weather, the competition. And at the end of the day, I always people the things that you do have control over and you should be evaluating yourself on is your effort, your attitude, and your execution. No matter what the conditions, no matter what the competition, those are all Things that you can feel like you walk away from the experience feeling like I had a 100% control over those things, and I can evaluate myself based on what I did. Problem is is that, you know, in in today's day and age, like, we just care about, like, the number on the scoreboard or the finishing time. Right? And I think There's a difference between that version of success and what personal success could look like. Right? And and I think that, you know, if if we have an obsession And this infatuation with, like, metals and and records, a lot of times we forget about that the fact that, you know, what it takes to get to that point, A lot of times, maybe are not always the most healthy attributes.

Alex Ostberg [00:14:05]: Right? Like, I think high performers typically are are really, really Good at at focusing. They're really good at taking pain. They're really, really good at pushing themselves. But it also a lot of times, These these performances are driven by, you know, like, a crippling sense of insecurity. Right? I mean, I always think about stories like like Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan. And you think about, like, the men that like, the the the versions of themselves that they had to construct themselves into to be so successful came at an immense personal cost. Michael Jordan had a quote where he said, he said, I spend my whole life crafting myself into this perfect being for one purpose, and I did that at the expense of all other sorts of things that I might have been, A different father, a husband, a friend. And now that it's all over, I've turned myself into this person with these traits.

Alex Ostberg [00:14:51]: And these traits are not only useless in my new life, They are the thing that stands in between me and enjoying all the things that that person and me purchased beforehand. So I thought that was a really thought provoking quote because oftentimes the tools required to reach success are the very same ones that prevent us from enjoying it once we actually get there. So that's that's why I think, like, Goals are a great thing to talk about, but I also think, you know, in Katie's story, we need to look at, like, what is the cost of those goals, and how can you go about pursuing these things in a harmonious way, not in a way that's really addictive and obsessive.

Cory Nagler [00:15:22]: Yeah. And I think that one of the things I've struggled with as well is making sure that my running goals are aligned with those other goals. And this is maybe a bit of a tangent, but, your discussion about kind of Working towards made me think of, some philosophy classes I used to take where we talk about virtue ethics and some kind of general principles that are that are good in all aspects. And I think At the end of the day, most of us, regardless of your reason for running, you want your running goals to kinda move you in the direction of other life goals that you have. But it can sometimes become a distraction when it's kind of all encompassing. So, again, this is this is maybe not directly, on topic, but, Curious. Do you find for yourself in your running that you've kind of had to reflect on how the 2 relate in terms of everyday life and your running goals?

Alex Ostberg [00:16:11]: Yeah. Absolutely. I think to to kind of expand on what you were talking about here, striving in and of itself is not a bad thing. I think, like, you know, there's chasing something is a worthwhile goal in life, but you also have to realize there comes a point where striving is maladaptive. Right? And I think, really, the the big takeaway that I have from every runner's journey is that training does not occur in isolation. Right? Like, the way that you live your life and the way that you feel about your life oftentimes actually impacts your race results just as much as the The big workout that you did 10 days prior. Right? And, like, I think I think Katie's story really speaks to this, and we'll get into this in more detail. And she said, you know, I think she was looking at like, okay.

Alex Ostberg [00:16:56]: In order to run fast, like, I need to address this from the bottom up. Like, I need to feel happy. I need to feel like I'm I'm striving for something that's worthwhile. I need to surround myself with people who are are are, you know, infusing this journey with a sense of meaning. And I think that was something that was incredibly astute and self aware and not something that everybody gets to because I think at the end of the day, like, you can strive for these goals, but, know? And I think a lot of times, people will talk about balance. And I think if you're trying to do something really audacious, like run a marathon or run a new PR, like, You're going to be out of balance occasionally. Right? And that's not necessarily a bad thing. What you have to do is you have to be able to have the self awareness to realize that When the inertia of a passionate experience comes at a cost and oftentimes, that cost can be your relationships with other people, like the way that you're assessing opportunities in life.

Alex Ostberg [00:17:46]: I think a lot of times, people just need to be willing to take a step back, reflect and evaluate, and say, do I have the self awareness to know where this journey is taking me? Because a lot of times, you can you can You can push yourself over the edge pretty easily.

Cory Nagler [00:17:59]: Yeah. Definitely. And I think Katie understands that so well. So I do wanna now let her speak to Some of the amazing races and, challenges that she's gone through over the past year. So, let's hand it over to Katie.

Guest [00:18:16]: My 2023 race schedule was very different than usual because we got 2 very high energy puppies in 2022, And I had made the decision to take the year off structured training to make sure I gave everything I could to training my pups right. So I decided to try something new this year in race stack with the intention of maximizing fun with minimal pressure from not having trained hard coming into the season. In mid August, I ran the twisted branch 100 k in New York with my new friend, Dave, that I met at Hellbender. We had another proper adventure this weekend, But I really struggled this race with putting pressure on myself to finish within a certain place. I'm currently working on all of this with my sports psychologist. The 1st weekend of September, I did the jpeak 53.1 kilometer run or 33 miles. This was probably the hardest race I've done to date because of the combination of elevation gain with inadequate nutrition. This was an 11 mile loop course with just under 11,000 feet of gain and descent total.

Guest [00:19:16]: My nutritionist and I dug deep talking through this race afterwards, and we set a new strategy to practice with and test on the next race. To sum it up, I didn't have enough calories or enough electrolytes, especially with the steepest climb being right in the sun. I ran the Champlain Marathon in here at Vermont, a road marathon the following weekend with 3 of my great running friends, which was also really special to me. I ended up winning this race for females. Yay. But post race, I was way too hard on myself having feelings of inadequacy, which just seems So, so wrong. The fact that I couldn't just run and have fun and gee whiz enjoy a win was pretty upsetting to me and made me wonder if I'm even setting to me and made me wonder if I'm even emotionally ready to be racing. I've been working on all this with my professionals, and ultimately, I think becoming a bigger Part of the running community is what has been and will continue to help me reprogram my brain to become a healthier, happier runner.

Cory Nagler [00:20:13]: What a cool story. Alex, how would you describe Katie's approach to dealing with challenges and overcoming setbacks as you listen to her responses?

Alex Ostberg [00:20:23]: Yeah. I mean, I I love listening to to Katie's perspective on this, because I think she's doing something at a really high level. I mean, She's running these races which are extremely challenging. Right? They're extremely physically and mentally demanding. And the reality is is that you if you toe the line for an ultra, for instance, You may not finish, and that's something that you kind of have to come to terms with in the beginning. Right? Like, this is not a goal where you set out and you're like, oh, yeah. I feel totally secure that I'm gonna achieve this, like, And and, like, I'm gonna knock this out of the park. At a certain level, like, you want your goals to be just scary enough that you're actually not sure that you can complete it.

Alex Ostberg [00:20:59]: And I think Katie looks at at her at her goals and her races, and I think she actually leans into that, and she loves that. I I remember, at one point in time, This was either in a race report or or kind of a back and forth that we were having. She was reflecting on an upcoming race that she had, and she's like, it's gonna get ugly, but I love that. And she you know, I think it's just one of those things where it's about, you know, the the willingness to deal with discomfort, right, and and the willingness to attempt something knowing that you could possibly fail. I think a lot of people, Never really want to experience that because it's incredibly uncomfortable. I mean, I'll I'll draw a a comparison that that might be a little bit cliche, but it's like, With with relationships in life. Right? Like, if you've had your heart broken, it's also it's oftentimes so hard to, like, want to try to love again. Right? Because You're like, oh, I can't possibly put myself through that again.

Alex Ostberg [00:21:50]: But, typically, like, your willingness to feel love in in life is is very much related to or it occurs in proportion to your willingness to get hurt. Right? And, like, sometimes you need to be able to, acknowledge that failure is an option, And it and it may happen, but it shouldn't deter you from even trying in the 1st place. And the fact that that Katie acknowledges that and she leans into it, I think, is is amazing. I think The reality is so many people are kind of withholding, or they're not really maybe getting they're not really squeezing everything they can have that are experienced in life because they're not necessarily willing To put themselves in the arena, so to speak. And and what I'm referencing, some people may know, there's a great quote by by the by, Teddy Roosevelt, and he I think it's been Kind of referred to more generally as the man in the arena quote. And he says it's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out the strong man who stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs The man who's actually in the arena, whose face is marred by sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs, who comes up short time and time again, Because there is no effort without error and shortcoming, but who who does actually strive to do the deeds, who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself worthy in cause, who at best knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who at worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, So that his place will never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat. I thank you for indulging me and, like, letting me read that quote because I think it's something that has really guided My life, and it says, you know, put yourself in the arena.

Alex Ostberg [00:23:19]: A a, you shouldn't criticize people if you haven't been in the in the arena yourself. And, I mean, Katie is is in the thick of things. Right? Like, she's she's confronting some scary things up close and personal, and she's willing to face those things. And it's like, a lot of times in life, people will spend so much time running away from fear. And and the reality is is that, you know, the cave that you fear to enter oftentimes holds the treasure that you seek. And I think she knows that All great things in life happen on the other side of discomfort, on the other side of, of something that could be painful, and she's totally willing to immerse herself in

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Cory Nagler [00:27:21]: Yeah. She leans into it to the extreme. I I've heard a lot of this saying in running. That's Get comfortable being uncomfortable. But I I think for Katie, it's almost an excitement to get uncomfortable because she seems to know that it's going to make her better and seeks out these challenges and, just soaks up everything there is to learn, even when it does result in failure, which is incredible. And I know you talk a lot about how people tend to Underestimate what they can do in the long term. And and I note that even though this isn't in the responses that she recorded, I I think you shared with this offline that She has some pretty lofty goals looking for it all the way to 2028 or even 23, in the marathon and beyond. So certainly some some, You know, pie in the sky, scary goals that she's chasing after.

Cory Nagler [00:28:05]: You know, she she really has an incredible ability to to learn because a lot of the races this past didn't go her way and it doesn't seem to deter her at all. I'm wondering how does it change the coach athlete relationship when a runner possesses such a Profound self awareness the way Katie does reflecting on her setbacks.

Alex Ostberg [00:28:23]: Yeah. This is a great point and something that I I love talking about because I think The best athletes, they may be stubborn and they may be hard headed, but they are always willing to be coached, I have found. The best athletes want to be coached, And and that's that that's been a common thread I've seen amongst some some really, really high performing people at whatever their level they're operating at. Right? And I think one of the biggest things that's that stands out to me is that Katie has a self awareness to know when she she needs to ask for help. And and I really, really admire that. I mean, She talked about in her own journey, and we may get to this in other clips, but, you know, she's she's been, you know, immersed in therapy, working on dialectical behavioral therapy. She's She's been she sought out a a nutritionist. She sought out sought out a a sports psychologist, and I think she realizes that, you know, she can't go on this journey alone.

Alex Ostberg [00:29:10]: And and that's gonna be something we definitely talk about later in this podcast is is how interconnected she feels with all the people in her life that are that are kind of along with her on the journey. And so I think it the lesson that we can take from this is, like, you shouldn't have to go through this alone. Like, be willing to ask for help. And it's okay to be it's okay to be stubborn at at at times, but you also need to know the limits, of of where, you know, someone else may be able to help facilitate that experience and help you get there. So that's something that I love about Katie. Like, I even though, you know, she's she's doing what what she's doing at a really, really high level, she also knows when she's like, okay. Yep. I Had to DNF this race because I didn't have enough nutrition on board.

Alex Ostberg [00:29:48]: Like, I need more electrolytes. Like, let me actually get with a professional, ask for a plan, develop it, so that next time, Like, I'm not gonna have any questions as to why I failed. Like, I will I will actually know that I've gotten to the bottom of this, and I've done everything in my power to improve.

Cory Nagler [00:30:03]: Totally. I I think, we often look in in silo or separation, this ability to have kind of self efficacy and help yourself and then seek others for help. But They're totally related, and I I think runners at the end of the day should be bringing out the best in each other. And this is something that Katie not only recognizes, but, You know, actively speaks to as she's, connecting with others. So, you know, I I think it's Super incredible to hear that from her. I'm I'm curious. Do you find that she will go to you for help more than other athletes do?

Alex Ostberg [00:30:36]: I think I think she's always willing to ask, and that's the thing. And sometimes the ask is, like, you know, can I do more? And I think one of the one of the biggest things that I've learned is that, You know, successful athletes take ownership over their journey. They're not gonna blame it on anybody else. They're gonna take personal responsibility to make sure that they've left no stone unturned. And I think that's the biggest thing with her. Like, I think, yes, I've had a lot of communication, back and forth, especially in, in 2023 when she was back to back. Mean, she was posting all of her runs. She was logging religiously, which is normally highly correlated with people who are successful because they're diligent and they're systematic in their approach.

Alex Ostberg [00:31:09]: But yeah. I mean, she she's totally willing to, you know, engage in these conversations to to really take ownership over her plan And then to just, you know, really extract as much wisdom as she can out of the people in her life, whether that be a a sports nutritionist, a psychologist, or a coach. And I think that's something that, you know, at at some level, everybody could do a better job, both myself included.

Cory Nagler [00:31:31]: Yeah. No. Absolutely. Myself included as well. And I I think we've spoken to a little bit here kind of That personal growth journey and and how Katie's taking active steps on her own to make herself a better runner and, quite frankly, person. But, as we've done with the other segments, Let's let Katie tell that story herself.

Guest [00:31:48]: How I define success in the sport has changed quite a bit lately, I'm proud to say. I used to define success as whether or not I was achieving my a goals which are usually very aggressive and challenging. I've struggled with and still struggle with Tying my self esteem to my running performance, which has not made me a happier runner. I feel it in my bones that if we are given something that changes our lives in such a positive way that we should do our best to share it with others, and I love to share what I can with other runners. Being an active member of the running community is important because we prop each other up, we help each other soar. We help brush off the dirt and the blood when we fall. We also get to learn from each other in ways that solidify our bonds and help us grow. What could be better than this? Success in the sport also means advancing inclusivity so that all people have the Opportunity to experience the amazing things that running has to offer.

Guest [00:32:42]: And most importantly, success is being able to say that it is adding joy to my life. To me, being an active member of the running community also means educating myself on the history of the sport and understanding how I, as a white runner, have had and still do have more privileges and more access to running than many nonwhite runners. Advocating for diversity, equity, and inclusion is a very important part of being an member of the community to me, and I'm committed to continuing to learn how I can be the best ally and do as much as I can do to make the sport more inclusive and equitable. I have a lot of ideas in mind. Lastly, I'm continuing to educate myself on racism and inequities in our sport and trying to figure out what measurable thing I can do to fight inequities in our sport in 2024. The eating disorder that I'm in recovery from now is binge eating disorder, and I struggled with that for about 20 years. It started about 2 years after recovering from anorexia. Just within the past year, I've interrupted several invasive habits that have been hugely negatively impacting me, writing down and counting calories and daily weighing.

Guest [00:33:51]: Stopping these obsessions has alleviated my stress so incredibly much, And I'm having less digestive issues as well as a result. I still struggle with body dysmorphia, but I'm actively working on combating it And reminding myself that healing doesn't happen overnight and that sharing my story can be so healing for me and hopefully for others as well. I struggled with social anxiety a lot in my life, and it basically took me until COVID to overcome my fears of inadequacy and reach out to strangers mostly via social media and basically ask them point blank to be my running friends. These friends have helped me survive, Showing me love and support no matter what my size or my performance has been or will be.

Cory Nagler [00:34:37]: Absolutely amazing how Katie can work towards bringing out the best in others and see how they bring out the best in herself. In what is often such an individualistic sport, Alex, where do you think Katie's passion for helping others comes from?

Alex Ostberg [00:34:51]: Yeah. I mean, I think, You know, she speaks to it pretty directly in that, you know, this sport has really become a love affair of her own. Right? Like, she I mean, it's it's been challenging at times. I think it's broken her down, and she's built herself back up. But I think she's realized at at each step of the of of the journey How meaningful it really has been for her. So I I think and and, I I mean, we'd have to ask her directly to really get the answer. But I think part of her motivation in helping others is Seeing how transformative running has been in her own life and desperately wanting other people to discover that as well, which I think is really powerful. It's selfless, and and she she sees herself kind of in the broader ecosystem.

Alex Ostberg [00:35:29]: She sees herself as a runner within a community. She doesn't kinda yourself as an island, where, like, she's just trying to optimize her own performance, at the exclusion of everything else. And I think it's it's really an admirable cause to to be going for. I I think at the end of the day, you know, and I when I reflect back on my days in college, as an athlete, You know, I think at the time, I thought that all I would remember would be the races that we might have won, the times that we ran. And oftentimes, it's not, You know, those big moments that I thought I would remember, but often the moment but it's really it's the small ordinary moments in life where it's always Moments that I shared with other people that are the most memorable. Like, one day when I'm on my deathbed, I'm probably gonna be thinking a lot about the relationships that I had and and the ones that I shared with people when we were doing something challenging together rather than the accomplishments that I achieved on my own. And I think Katie is really, really far along in her own growth and development in a sense because she realizes, really how important it is to have other people by her side. There There's an African proverb that I've heard before, which I love, which is that if you wanna go fast, go alone, but if you wanna go far, go together, and something along those lines.

Alex Ostberg [00:36:38]: And, I mean, in in Ultra is is really the quintessential, go as long as you can experience. Right? Like, 100, 200 miles. She's She's done races that have taken her 38 hours, and and she will probably attempt longer ones. And I think some of the relationships that she's built have really been incredible. I mean, I think During the last 50 something miles of one of the races she did in North Carolina this past year, she, she won she met a friend on the course, And they ran you know, they must have run hours together, and they kind of she said they shared their life stories and, like, it it's really a place where you make yourself vulnerable in front of others, and there's this really interesting thing where you're kind of bearing witness to other people that are really, really challenging themselves, and doing it in a way that, is In a context that's really difficult. And I think, oftentimes in life, like, you don't progress relationships through, like, small talk or doing superficial things. Like, Relationships in life move at the speed of vulnerability. And I think she sees how, like, running, especially doing these things that are really, really challenging, can just, like, give her really deep and meaningful connections with with people in her life.

Alex Ostberg [00:37:42]: I have found it really cool to see, kind of the the community that she's built by herself in I think she was saying that during COVID, she had mentioned that, you know, She's like, I I need I need some training partners. So she said she overcame her social anxiety, and she just mess started messaging people more or less saying, hey. Are you willing to be my training partner? And I think I got the impression that that was probably a pretty difficult thing to do for her, but now she's made some really, really wonderful friendships from that. And there are people that, You know, she's pacing, and and I think she sees herself as as, she she has been, I think, been mentored by other people, and now she wants to pay it back and and kind of return Turn that favor to the running community. And, I I mean, one story that I love is that there was a 100 mile race in Vermont that got canceled because it was flooded. And she just decided, hey. Let me does I was she was gonna design, like, a do it yourself 100 miler through the woods. I don't even know where it was gonna be, but she was just gonna create that herself so that she could pace her friend who really wanted to achieve this goal.

Alex Ostberg [00:38:38]: Turns out he was gonna do another race, but then she ended up doing a do it yourself 50 miler on her own with another friend. And so I just love seeing, these these different points in her journey where, like, they've almost always been defined by not just The accomplishment that she reached, but the experience that she shared with others. And I think there's there's really something to that. If you'll Bear with me for one second. I think there's some fascinating stories I've heard from a scientific perspective of people in life who have done He's like superhuman feats. Right? And and, like, one that always comes to mind is the mother who can, like, lift a car to save a child. Right? And these are they they've studied some of these things scientifically, and the and these are examples of quote unquote hysterical strength, and they typically occur in, like, life or death moments. Right? And I think what we realize when you test this scientifically is everybody typically has a reserve beyond what they think, is their maximum output.

Alex Ostberg [00:39:31]: Right? But but the brain, as a protective mechanism, says it has what's called a central governor. At least that's the theory, where it says, I'm gonna down regulate The amount of weight that you can lift or the amount of speed that I'm gonna give you right now, because I don't want you to catastrophically hurt yourself. But in a moment of life or death, like, it opens the floodgates, and it says, Lift as much as you can, like, even if that comes at the risk of tearing a muscle, like, you need to get out of the situation. You need to save somebody. And what the science, I think, has started to point to is that, you know, Physical fatigue occurs in the body, not the brain, and it's like it's not the muscles that wear out, but it's rather the brain that shuts them down even when people have more percentage points to give. The question is, how do you access those last few percentage points? And I think a lot of times, scientists have landed on the fact that it's people who have a self, who who have a a a transcending they transcend their sense of self. Right? So they're doing it amongst other people. They wanna help other people.

Alex Ostberg [00:40:22]: And I think it's just this really Poetic way to say that, like, you can achieve more with others in your presence than you can on your own. And so I think if that's a message to anyone in the community, it's like, find those people that you can do this with, Empower other people to join you on the journey because it's gonna be so much more fulfilling. And as a byproduct, you might be able to perform better yourself.

Cory Nagler [00:40:41]: Yeah. I've certainly found that to be the case in terms of others bringing up the best in yourself. And there's a a quote in sports we're saying I can't remember where it comes from, but it's essentially, you know, if you have somebody who loves to win in another team or person who hates to lose, that's one who's always going to come out on top. And I think there's some truth, but I think even more powerful than that is when you have those transcendent transcendent, rather, goals. And I I think Katie really has a way of kind of having these very clear Set goals, but then really seeing what is the greater importance within that, and actively making, helping other people, Advocating DEI and and all these other initiatives, such a big part of her goals. But at the end of the day, I I think it's it it has also Impacted her and made her a better runner in person. So as far as that's concerned, what role do you think that these efforts in terms of helping other people, whether that be, pacing or or non running activities have in in personal growth, especially as it relates to Katie's story?

Alex Ostberg [00:41:47]: I think at the end day she has seen how much the sport has given her, and I think as I mentioned before, like, she really wants other people to experience that themselves. So I think I mean, I and and I think I say that from the perspective that it's a completely selfless endeavor. I mean, she's willing to put herself through 50 miles of suffering To pace other people, I mean, that's that's not that's that's an above average well above average characteristic of someone who's willing to do something for others. And so I I think that's that's really important, but I think she's just been able to see that, like, she can access deeper levels of herself whether that's, you know, growth and understanding, which is what we talked about earlier, or even just performance by by doing this with other people. And I think when you reflect back on things in life, like, it's almost always The difficult moments that you shared with people that come to the top of your mind, like, it's not the easy things that you did. Right? It's like, we really We we were striving for this. We struggled. We strained for it, and we we we ultimately we overcame.

Alex Ostberg [00:42:40]: And I think, you know, That that sense of we, like, we did this together. Like, this was something a mission that we accomplished. I think that's always gonna be more salient when you look back on your memories and things that you have done alone.

Cory Nagler [00:42:52]: Definitely. And as far as this aspect of helping others and advancing DEI, especially in the running community, What steps do you think runners can take, in their own communities to help advance that if they wanna make it a goal for themselves?

Alex Ostberg [00:43:07]: Yeah. Absolutely. I I think Katie has realized again. Like, I I think she really much sees herself as, 1 person in this beautiful ecosystem of the sport, and she's also has, The the awareness to realize that not everyone has gotten the access to these things historically. Right? Like, there have been people that have been deprived from this wonderful experience, and I think she says, you know, that's not right. That's that's not fair. I mean, one of the one of the great things about this this sport is that it really has a very low barrier to entry, and it and it should be that way. At the end of the day, I I love saying that, you know, this this is a sport that, you know, all you really need is a pair of running shoes, maybe a stopwatch.

Alex Ostberg [00:43:44]: You can go out, and you can you can derive all the benefits from it. But the reality is and, I mean, I studied public health for my master's degree. The the reality is is that not everyone's on the same starting line. Like, not everyone has access to these opportunities, Whether it be, you know, in in lower income communities, a, maybe it's not as safe to be running outside, b, there's literally not as much Space for outdoor play with for you know, there's fewer parks. There's there's there's, you know, not these these places are less walkable. So, I mean, If you go really far upstream, it's it's a it's a difficult problem to solve, but I think Katie realizes that, okay, rather than taking this on from, like, policy standpoint. Right? Like, she I don't I don't think she has any aspirations to be involved in government and trying to address this through, like, legal or, or or regulatory changes, but I think she realizes that, okay. This is something that I can help impact.

Alex Ostberg [00:44:32]: This is something where I can really move the needle, on a personal level for someone Who's you know, maybe lives down the street or maybe lives a town over. And I think if there's inequities in the sport, like, I think she's made it her own personal responsibility to say that, You know, I can play my role in this bigger journey by, a, acknowledging that this is something that exists. There are inequities. There are disparities. And then, b, Can I can I take personal responsibility for for, you know, taking this challenge on firsthand and and being willing to to stand up for what right thing to do is? And I think, again, that's that's very admirable.

Cory Nagler [00:45:06]: Yeah. It it's incredibly admirable, and I I think we do have to recognize our own Privilege in the sport. It there's little barriers to entry, as you said, in terms of just needing shoes, but having access to to coaching or rotation of shoes to use for different workouts, it is Such a privilege that not everyone has. And I think, recognizing that not everyone can can have that same involvement in the sport and and feel Safe and inclusive, is a problem, and it's, incredible to have athletes like like Katie who are, you know, making it such a goal of theirs to to take them head on.

Alex Ostberg [00:45:36]: Yeah. No. Absolutely. And I I think, in general, I kind of had a little bit of a naive perspective earlier on, especially when I was in college. I was like, This is a very medic meritocratic sport. Right? Like, it's it you can anybody can accomplish whatever they want to, and then they can, You know, reap the rewards of those successes themselves. But then when you start to look at it, like, I mean, there's greater forces that play here, and this could be a podcast of of its own. But even when you look at, like, recruited athletes in into, you know, elite schools, some of the statistics are pretty staggering.

Alex Ostberg [00:46:08]: It's like 1 in every 8 kids from From the top 1% of of earnings are are recruited athletes. And then if you go to the lower middle income status, it's only 1 in 20 that are recruited athletes. So these sports, even ones with a very low barrier to entry like running, something that should be more equitable and fair for everybody to to achieve success in, They really do skew in a certain direction that tends to be towards more privileged individuals. So I I think dismantling some of that and and and Granting access to people who historically have been deprived of those opportunities is challenging, but I think it's certainly something that that does need to be addressed. And I love the fact that, like, you know, Katie has has made her own personal responsibility to, to confront those challenges and to try to make a difference on the individual level.

Cory Nagler [00:46:51]: Totally. Totally. Yeah. So I I do wanna now finish off by letting Katie share her funnel thoughts, which are And of what's coming up next and some of her future goals, which absolutely includes more helping others in DEI. So let's hand it back over to Katie one last time.

Guest [00:47:08]: In 2024, I'm hoping to help others in their racing and training more than I race myself. I'm going to pace and crew a for her 1st attempt at an 888 kilometer race in Groton, Vermont, which I'm really excited about because we're going to be sharing some big emotions, I'm sure. It's gonna get ugly, I bet, and that excites me. I'm also hoping to pace others a couple more times in the year, but I don't have anything solidified yet. It's so important to me to celebrate all of our bodies of all shapes and sizes and to support others that are also struggling. We runners need to be strong, and we all deserve to be as mentally healthy and happy as we can be. Ultimately, for me, becoming a happier runner looks like finding a healthy balance between having carefree adventures and training for challenging goals. I've been working on becoming a happier runner for the past year because I'm just tired of putting so much unnecessary pressure on myself and feeling like I'm never good enough and for letting my eating disorder steal so much joy and health from my life.

Guest [00:48:14]: For starters, I'm committed to the process therapy where I've been learning dialectical behavioral therapy skills and really benefiting from that. I've been regularly seeing a nutritionist, I've just started seeing a sports psychologist, and I've already seen big gains in a short amount of time. For my racing, one of my big goals this year is to enter and finish my 1st 200 mile trail race. I'm on the waiting list for the Bigfoot 200 in Washington state in August, and I'm likely to get in. If I don't, I'll choose another less exciting 200 miler. I'm pretty scared about the lack of sleep in 200 milers, so I'm very excited about crushing this goal and finding a new heightened Power inside of myself. I'm also hoping to go for a PR in the road marathon this year. I put that on the back burner for a while because for me, the road marathon is the hardest race to train for and to not get injured.

Guest [00:49:03]: I need to be really committed to strength training, mobility, health, and stress management while also doing the hard training. I'm planning to try for a sub 3 hour marathon as this has been a goal of mine for a long time, and I've been close in the past. But I'm also challenging myself to stray away from numbers and focus on the effort.

Cory Nagler [00:49:22]: Alex, what are your thoughts as you listen to Katie's goals and aspirations for the coming year that she just shared?

Alex Ostberg [00:49:28]: I think we can talk about these things in 2 different parts. I mean, the goals themselves really fall in line with what we were saying earlier. You know? They're scary. They're they're aspirational. I mean, she wants to run some some races that, quite frankly, to me, as a very experienced runner, is, like, I don't even know if I would try to attempt. And and, I mean, just because, like, I think at one point in time, she was saying that she wants to run a 200 mile race, and she's, like, concerned about, you know, The the lack of sleep there is is going to cause some, like, actual, like, detrimental impacts. I mean, I've heard stories of of people, like, hallucinating during these races, which is Terrifying to think about, but, like, I think she's willing to, a, prepare as as as much as she possibly can to mitigate some of those challenges, and then, b, Go into this and lean into that the the lean into some of that fear and be willing to confront it face to face. So I I think that's Great.

Alex Ostberg [00:50:17]: I I do think too and and this speaks to, you know, identity based goals rather than just performance based goals. I mean, she has shared that, you know, She still struggles with things like body dysmorphia, and I think she realizes that this healing process that she's on is not going to happen overnight. And I think for her, success is not just achieving these things, but it's also the person that she wants to become in the journey. And it's about valuing herself for not only how fast that she can run, But but how, I think how how satisfied she feels with, you know, how she's doing in her journey of recovery. I mean, she's even mentioned, like, She she there was a huge impact for when she interrupted some of her negative habits. I mean, she was, she she said she stopped counting calories and weighing herself daily. And I think it's really interesting to see how, like, some of these things like, I think I think passion and addiction are really close cousins. And I think, like I said before, like, there's appointments driving can become maladaptive.

Alex Ostberg [00:51:10]: But then also unlearning some of those things is extremely challenging to do. And I love the fact that she's kind of taken the intensity that may have pushed her a little bit too far, and she's Moved on from, like, just saying, okay. How can I run as fast as I can to a 10 k, which is very controlled performance based environment? And now she's applying that intensity to an ultra marathon, which is like the complete other end of spectrum. Right? She has almost no control over it. She's dealing with weather challenges, tens of thousands of feet of of of vertical elevation change, And it's just like, wow. Like, then that alone speaks to how much she's really grown and developed in this journey because she's willing to to take on these challenges that, like, She has to kind of completely surrender to the outcome. Right? Completely surrender to the fact that she has no control over how she might finish or or how this goes, and And I I I really love that.

Cory Nagler [00:51:56]: Yeah. Yeah. You you talk about this piece of kind of addiction, and often in in ultra endurance sports, we talk about healthy addiction. But I get the the impression that if Katie has any addiction, it's not even running itself so much as it is to just challenge in helping others. Would you say that's accurate?

Alex Ostberg [00:52:12]: I mean, definitely, it seems like that's been, an organizing like, it's been it's been a that's what you know, her life has been infused with that purpose, it seemed, over the past few years. I mean, I think she even has said that she wants to pace more people than races that she runs herself within this next year. So, I mean, that speaks to it pretty well.

Cory Nagler [00:52:27]: Yeah. Totally. So, You know, when runners are looking towards setting this 10 k PR or a marathon PR, it's it's very easy to have your goals on paper and say, this is the time I want to achieve. Not so much when your goal is to help others or become a happier runner, even though they are very important, goals to have. So How would you say that runners looking to prioritize success in other capacities than race results can still set tangible goals or measure their progress along achieving them?

Alex Ostberg [00:52:57]: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think this is a very this is a a difficult question to answer because I think it's so individualized at the end of the day. I think What what most runners don't do a great job of is celebrating the small victories. I think everybody thinks about their a goal or their a race, and they're like, I will not feel satisfied until I accomplish this goal across the finish line. And at the end of the day, it's like, no. You have to realize the journey makes up 99% of the time that you're gonna be committing to this goal. You have to enjoy the journey along the way, and you should celebrate those small victories.

Alex Ostberg [00:53:27]: So that's the first thing I'd say. The second thing I would also say is that, again, I think rather than balance, which is what a lot of people talk about, it's like you need to spread your energy evenly between all of your things. I would say that's Probably a little bit misguided in that if you wanna do something great or do something really challenging, your energy is probably gonna look a little bit lopsided in terms of where you're gonna spend it. But it's also it's it's about having the self awareness to realize when you're doing that and and realizing that in, when you when you really zoom in on the week to week, Maybe your life will be a little bit out of balance, but overall, you wanna look at the people who are able to fully engage with something and then fully disengage. I think Shailene Flanagan said that, when she was doing marathon training several years ago, she she brought up this point that when she's dialed into training before the Olympics, before New York City New York City Marathon, whatever it was, Her life may have looked out of balance, but that was just in the micro. But then when you look at the macro, after that race, she's like, then I wanna fully disengage. I wanna go on a vacation with my family, Bask in in the glory of that accomplishment or just bask in the fact that, you know, the fact that she achieved something that's really difficult. She just crossed the finish line, which I think a lot of times people forget that, like, you know, They they have the a goal, but then they forget that, like, hey.

Alex Ostberg [00:54:33]: I actually did something pretty special. Even if they didn't achieve exactly what they wanted to, they still ran a athon, which is, like, something that 99% of people will never attempt and may not be able to attempt. So I think it's, like, having gratitude for those things, not taking that for granted, And having that sense of gratitude throughout the entire journey is really important.

Cory Nagler [00:54:50]: Yeah. I'm gonna just take a moment and bask in the glow of everything that we've discussed today that Katie's accomplished because between running your own 50 miler, completing 200 milers, having goals in the marathon, and advancing DEI, There's so much to choose from. So for yourself, as you kind of reflect on this and having worked with her, I'm I'm curious if there's anything that Stands out as some of the most impressive accomplishments. But then again, recognizing that a lot of the goals and and most impressive pieces of her story are non running related, I I'm curious what lessons other runners listening can can take this in terms of applying it to their own personal growth in the sport and beyond.

Alex Ostberg [00:55:31]: Yeah. Absolutely. And and we could talk about how prolific she's been. I mean, how many ultra marathon she can run. And and I think I think that's great. Like, I think we've probably already highlighted how impressive her running accomplishments are, but I think that that the, the challenge of a lifetime for her that is that is still ongoing, which she readily admits, It's really thinking about how how running has helped shape her identity and how it's helped shape some of the challenges that she's faced in her life that have been completely non relate non running related. Right? I'll talk about a few core themes just to wrap up here. I think the first is, are you gonna live a life that's intentional and by design, or are you just gonna be, You know, just subject to, or are you just gonna kinda be floating around aimlessly, I should say? I think, in general, You know, if you look at, like, happiness in life, generally, like, having studied psychology, most people would say that about 50% of it's probably genetically determined, 10 of it's 10% of it's circumstantial, and then 40% of it is intentionally what you do.

Alex Ostberg [00:56:30]: I look at how Katie has has totally been a driver in her life and not a passenger In the sense that she's recruited training partners. She's driven down to North Carolina to run, you know, I think it was a 100 mile trail race. She's She's been very intentional about confronting her challenges, about taking these things on, and and really being willing to sink her teeth in some things that are are extremely difficult, and I think that's that's very admirable. I I do think too she's really owned her own journey. I think she's willing to share it now, which is, which is great. I mean, I I think it really speaks to the fact that she's willing to be vulnerable. She's willing to learn. And I think she's realized that, you know, You can win a race, but at the end of the day, like, that might leave you feeling a little bit empty sometimes because what you really should be doing is instead of comparing yourself to some arbitrary standard, compare yourself to who you were yesterday and the day before.

Alex Ostberg [00:57:17]: And I think you should I mean, the I in my opinion, the best form of competition is trying to better yourself day in and day out, and I think Katie has definitely done that in her own journey. I think building a real sense of community is is great. I mean, like I said, relationships move at the speed of vulnerability, and nothing really in life makes you more vulnerable than running a 50 to a 100 mile race and doing that side by side with somebody, you're gonna confront challenges. To quote Katie, it's gonna get ugly at times, and you're gonna have to roll with that. And I think I think lastly, I mean, a a great core takeaway here is, like, know when you need to ask for help, and and be be willing to be coached. Right? Be be willing To admit when you don't know something, when somebody else's expertise that could help you. And I think Katie has really been very intentional about Seeking out people in her life to help her get to the next level, and I think that's something, again, myself included, that we can all do a better job of. So it's been a pleasure just to to kinda share her story, And I hope, you know, the the broader Runners Connect community can, can benefit from hearing some of these lessons.

Cory Nagler [00:58:17]: Yeah. We here at Runners Connect, we we aim to inform and and talk about important topics in running, but there's there's always so much to learn beyond that. And I think there's no better way to learn than from hearing you, the athletes yourselves, and and Katie really embodies that. So, Alex, thank you for joining me today and kind of sharing or or helping to speak to that story, and and thank you so much to to Katie for being willing to to tell some of that story today.

Alex Ostberg [00:58:41]: Thanks, Corey. It's been a pleasure as always.

Cory Nagler [00:58:43]: Pleasure on my end as well. Thank you so much. And for those listening, happy running.

Finn Melanson [00:59:02]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the A podcast. I'm your host, Finn Melanson. As always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. Please consider with me on Instagram at Wasatch Finn and the rest of our team at Runners Connect. Also consider supporting our show for free with a rating on the Spotify and Apple Podcast players. And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with our guests, and premier access to contests and giveaways, and subscribe to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netback/podcast. Until next time, happy