RC Crowns the Fittest Runner on the Planet

Coach Ruiari [00:00:00]: That's why I think you gotta go with the mile. It proves you are the fittest runner and fastest runner in the world. Sorry, Usain Bolt.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:00:10]: When it comes to the fastest or the fittest runner, I'm gonna go with the 10 k.

Jeff Gaudette [00:00:16]: The marathon is by far the hardest event that you can run. And don't let the others coaches persuade you. The marathon is it.

Coach Hayley [00:00:23]: For me, ultra math and distance is where I've had to be my healthiest and my strongest.

Cory Nagler [00:00:30]: You just heard from 4 of our coaches with their case for what race is the best test of fitness. The unofficial title of fastest man or woman on earth is commonly attributed to a 100 meter champion, but we're not going to let sprinters have all of the fun. Distance events require a special combination of endurance and strength that I believe makes them a better test of fitness. The question is, which event is the best at testing a runner's fitness, making the winner of that event the de facto fittest runner on the planet? I think most of you listening will agree that every race comes with its own challenges. But for today's show, there can only be one winner. We're covering distances from the mile up to ultra marathons, and you'll hear each coach from the opening clips share arguments in favor of how to answer the question, which race distance is the best test of fitness? I'll be joined by coach Michael, who graciously teamed up with me for this discussion to cover what are the arguments in favor of each race, and then finally, to crown a winner and settle what race distance comes out on top. So let's get into the debate. Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode.

Cory Nagler [00:01:46]: I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Coach Michael, welcome to the show.

Michael Hammond [00:02:10]: Thanks, Corey. Glad to be here, man.

Cory Nagler [00:02:12]: I am so glad to have you here with us. I think this is gonna be an exciting one. What are your first thoughts as we go into this?

Michael Hammond [00:02:18]: Oh, boy. I'm ready. I'm ready to to bring out the boxing gloves, you know, to to to fight hard and and fight dirty about this one, about which, which event is the hardest. So I I think I'm looking forward to seeing what the other coaches have to say and see if there's some, like you know, I have not actually listened to them yet. Corey, you've you've listened to them. I haven't even heard what they have to say yet, so I'm looking forward to see if there's any spicy spicy takes and and hot opinions going on.

Cory Nagler [00:02:42]: I have given a lesson. And, just as a reminder to everyone, today's episode, we're going to be crowning what event determines who is the fittest runner. So we've gotten some responses from our coaches already. They're gonna make their arguments for everything from the mile all the way up to the ultra marathon. And we're gonna decide once and for all which race actually determines who is the fittest runner. So should we get into it, Michael?

Michael Hammond [00:03:06]: Yeah. Let's get into it. I I think I'm gonna make a quick brief argument. My my 17 month old son has been doing these little, like, hill sprints. It's like a 20 20 meter hill that he's actually able to, like, walk all of his way up, and it it it looks pretty challenging. So I think I might have to insert the 20 meter grass hill climb into here as well, to to add on to the events.

Cory Nagler [00:03:27]: That's awesome. I'm all for adding hills prints in there and, can second that those are a tough one.

Michael Hammond [00:03:32]: Indeed. Indeed. Yeah. Let's do it.

Cory Nagler [00:03:34]: Awesome. Well, just a little background on this for what inspired the idea. This all came back from conversations around who is the fastest human on earth. And for those who aren't familiar, that's typically referred to as whoever wins the 100 meter dash. But I thought, why should we let sprinters have all the fun? Surely, the finished runner is gonna be somebody who's running endurance events. So, thus came this idea for the episode.

Michael Hammond [00:03:58]: I love it. Yeah. It's fun. No doubt. It's it's always that's the fastest man on earth. You know, Usain Bolt for so many years was the fastest man on earth. But, yeah, I guess you can talk about, like, who's the fittest overall runner on earth. I think that kinda gets into some interesting territory.

Michael Hammond [00:04:11]: So, yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing the the different arguments.

Cory Nagler [00:04:15]: Yeah. Absolutely. And I I think that brings up an interesting conversation around what is fitness. Even in the 100 meters, it's a little contentious because if you wanted to find who is the fastest, there was a time when people questioned, should it be the 200 meters since your speed over 200 meters on average is faster, which led to an interesting 150 meter race between, then champions Donovan Bailey and Michael Johnson where, Bailey ultimately came up on top.

Michael Hammond [00:04:41]: Yeah. I I've always thought that a 200 is a better gauge of most people's speed. I mean, now we're talking about usually distance runners. I think that 200 is typically a much better, gauge of your speed because the 100 relies a little bit too much on the start. You know, your your start is so so pivotal. You watch those guys. I mean, it's everything. Timing the start, getting that first hit out of the blocks right.

Michael Hammond [00:05:06]: The 400 meter, the next event up, gets a little bit tiny bit too endurance. I know we're sitting here talking about, like, ultra marathons. How can you how can you mention endurance with a 400 meter? But it is more of an endurance event certainly than a 102100. So the 200 or, yeah, the 150, somewhere in there is kind of the most pure test of your absolute raw speed without relying too much on the start or, or on your endurance.

Cory Nagler [00:05:32]: Yeah. I I do tend to agree with you, but here today, we're not testing sheer raw speed. So, Michael, what are your thoughts on what determines who's the fittest?

Michael Hammond [00:05:43]: Yeah. I I've been thinking about this. I've been chewing on this one for a while. You you first mentioned the idea a while ago, and I I have to admit the first event that came to my mind, the very first event, just pure gut reaction when you said who's who's the fittest? Fittest runner, you know, fittest athlete, whatever. I thought I have to admit, I thought of a sprinter. I thought of the 400 meter hurdles. I've always thought of the 400 meter hurdles as such a, like, freaky difficult event because running a 400 meter, as I said, it's not an endurance event. It's still a sprint event, but, man, that last 100 meter of a 400, your legs are just the lactic acid buildup is wild, and now you're sitting there trying to jump over hurdles as well.

Michael Hammond [00:06:22]: I've always thought of that as like a very freaky athletic event. You know, Sydney McLaughlin on the women's side is just so fantastic. But in terms of, like, what my gut is thinking, it's it's it's gonna be tough. I I I'm gonna have to go with my own past as much a lot because of of my past as a more middle distance 1500 meter runner and not necessarily because of fitness. We'll talk about this in a bit, but not necessarily because of, like, okay. A 50 nanometer runner is the fittest athlete, but more so because of other elements of the event. That's kinda why my brain is sort of scrambled. It's going all over the place because I'm thinking, oh, it's this event because you yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:06:58]: You know, if if it's purely running fitness, we could say the ultra marathon because you have to be able to run 50 plus miles at a time. That's that's but then there's, oh, but then there's you have to have this other thing ready for something that's shorter. You have to have your fueling and fat adaptation ready for the marathon. There's so many different elements. So like I said, my head's kinda jumping all over the place right now, but I think I'll be able to land on an answer by the time we, by the time we finish.

Cory Nagler [00:07:23]: And I I love that you went to the 400 meter hurdles in part because when we had this chat among our group, our our editor was kind of rambling his thoughts, which were the 5 or 10 k. And my response to him was, actually, I kinda think it's the steeplechase that might be the hardest if we're using that as the criteria. But that's not gonna be on here today. I'll get into a minute, which event specifically our coaches have stated their case for. But just for that, just before we get into that, curious on the actual criteria you think make the most sense for determining this. Because I think similar to speed in the, in the sprint events, you have more pure measures like VO 2 max or lactic threshold. But there's also some more subjectives we brought up this idea of, sort of difficulty or challenge or maybe what type of coordination it requires. How much how much do you think those play in, which is the more important factor here?

Michael Hammond [00:08:16]: Yeah. I'm going I'm definitely going for a balanced view of it. Not, like I said, not I'm not defaulting to the ultra marathon just purely because you have to be able to run a very long distance in order to do it. I'm trying to factor in, sure, pure aerobic fitness, of course, you know, then we can talk about, you know, more specifics threshold and aerobic threshold, lactate threshold, whatever whatever it is you wanna talk about, VO 2 max. But then also, you you mentioned, like, coordination. I'm sort of I'm not saying speed, but sort of like speed endurance. I'm kind of counting that in there because any race that's on the track, you know, 10000 meters or lower, there is an element of speed. I never like to call those speed events.

Michael Hammond [00:08:54]: I think sometimes in the broader running world that's so focused on the marathon, sometimes even the 5 k gets looked at as a speed event. The 5 k is like 90 plus percent aerobic, and it's a very heavy endurance event. It's just when we compare it to the marathon, it looks a little bit different. But I'm trying to factor in yeah. So the the pure aerobic endurance, speed endurance is what I'll call it for for lack of a because I don't wanna go all the way and say speed, you know, pure raw, like, 100 meter speed. Kind of like maybe a little bit of agility and coordination. And then I would say that one of the biggest factors though is just mental kind of like the mental toughness element, you know, and and on top of that, one last thing I'll say is strategy, like strategic, you know, how you need to actually pace yourself, how you need to race these actual events rather than just like running them. I think that's gonna be like a ding against an ultra marathon in my mind.

Michael Hammond [00:09:49]: Not no knock on it at all. It's just that ultimately, when you have a race, it's more like just kinda grind it out and finish. There's a different element when you run a shorter race where you're actually having a strategy of, you know, kick at this certain time or or whatever. So I'm trying to I'm trying to be balanced. I'm gonna try to take a balanced approach and not just default to one of those factors, trying to, like, factor all

Cory Nagler [00:10:11]: of them in. Yeah. I tend to agree with you. And as a sneak preview, I think a lot of those factors are gonna come up. So I have so many thoughts buzzing in my head, but let's get into it and see what our coaches actually thought. So we're gonna go through each distance, 1 at a time, starting with the mile, then going into the 10 ks, then the marathon, finally the ultra marathon, before deciding on what we think is the ultimate determinant of who is the fittest runner. So let's kick it off with Rory, who's making his strongest case for the mile.

Coach Ruiari [00:10:45]: Alright, guys. This one's easy, so let's end the debate here. The mile has gotta be one of the most unique running events out there and proves you're the fittest and fastest because as outside contributor, Alex Hutchinson, describes it, the mile demands the legs of a sprinter, the lungs of a marathoner, and the tactical cunning of a chess grandmaster. I'll have more on the physiological demands of the mile later, but first, I'm gonna say it has to be the standard bearer for the fastest human alive because of the clout and overall mystique this has brought to distance running. And, you know, anything that raises the profile of our sport is a great thing. Now nearly every runner alive has covered a mile, and even the average non runner can wrap their head around the distance and what's fast versus slow. When Roger Bannister broke the 4 minute mile barrier, it made headlines around the world, and Jim Ryan's world record in 1966 was one of the first times a distance runner graced the cover of Sports Illustrated. It's important how thrilling this race distance is for the average spectator.

Coach Ruiari [00:11:52]: I've had non runner friends watch a mile on the track and they can get really into it. And, also, what's cool is this race is too short for TV announcers and I guess the networks to cut away from the action. There's a 2021 study by the Sports Medicine Journal that goes way more in-depth, but, basically, it acknowledges that a successful 1500 and mile runner must run a little bit of everything, unlike the other distances. They're logging everything from long runs at marathon pace or slower to half marathon pace intervals, as well as short and long hill repeats, plus explosive sprints are 15 seconds or less. Not to mention they tend to do more heavy lifting and plyometrics and that type of stuff than your typical marathoner. Finally, I gotta add this in. In case you can't tell, I love the mile in 1500. I raced it primarily in college, and it was always my favorite distance in high school, and I still like to race it when I get the opportunity.

Coach Ruiari [00:12:51]: So first of all, this is gonna serve as a great benchmark, to extrapolate and figure out how fast you could be at other distances. You can run it hard and pretty often without much impact on your training or requiring much time to recover from it. Also, running a mile quickly like this improves speed and form. It's gonna sharpen that mental resilience because you feel the pain very quickly, unlike the slower onset grind of some of those marathon workouts. It's actually gonna help you tolerate those longer distances. I've found even when I do an ultra marathon and it's hurting, I'll kinda think back to how bad, some of those shorter race distances have have hurt. What I also love about it is this race is so accessible and logistically simple. You can really build community around an event like this.

Coach Ruiari [00:13:44]: You can do charity runs, fun races. There's even variations like the beer mile, which I've talked about on previous podcasts, one of my favorite ways to do a mile. Everyone can go out there and see how they compare. If they maybe watch that epic mile showdown on TV, they can hit the track. They can probably cover 4 laps and just, truly appreciate how fast these particular milers are. So that's why I think you gotta go with the mile. It proves you are the fittest runner and fastest runner in the world. Sorry, Usain Bolt.

Cory Nagler [00:14:20]: Alright. Michael, what are your first thoughts on those arguments?

Michael Hammond [00:14:23]: I love I love Rory's passion for this. I love it especially because Rory is somebody who primarily does ultramarathons and primarily does you know, was just on his kind of journey to, qualify for Olympic trials, which you interviewed him about a couple weeks ago. And I love that he still has this huge passion for the mile. And and I I, of course, love the, I I thought he would mention the beer mile. I knew Rory would been mention the beer mile. I knew he would because what I I was thinking in my head, oh, it'd be hilarious if Rory said the beater mile is the best test of fitness. But, yeah, I I think he made some actually really excellent points in terms of one of the extra things that I think he factored in that I hadn't even factored in is kind of the prestige, which I know doesn't necessarily lend itself to from a purity standpoint, what actually makes the fittest runner. But I I nonetheless love that he mentioned that because, you know, one of the most important things I think in my mind sometimes is, like, how do we how do we popularize the sport? Right? How do we get actual eyeballs on this thing? Running is simultaneously one of the it might be one of one of, if not, the most popular sports in the world in terms of participation, and yet the professional level of it is one of the the lowest in terms of of the major sports.

Michael Hammond [00:15:36]: It's one of the lowest, watched other than the Olympics sports in the world. So I think of something like the mile. I have to admit as a miler myself in my past, one of the things I loved the most was was that prestige. The fact that every you know, I'm I broke 4 minutes in the mile. That's just something that almost everyone, at least in the Western world, that we're gonna have people not in America and not in, you know, listening to this and being like, the mile. What a stupid event. But it's one of those things that most people can relate to at least in the states. They you you say you've broken 4 minutes in the mile, you know, you're gonna get a reaction from that from almost anybody.

Michael Hammond [00:16:11]: I remember when I was in high school, this girl one time asked me what my mile time was, and I said 4 and I had run, like, 4:20 something at the time. And I remember I just said the number 4, and she, like, just, like, gasped. Like, oh my god. That's insane. I can't believe that. So, you know, you you can imagine the face you get when you say 3 at the beginning of that. It's just it's just the prestige is definitely there. So I I appreciate him adding that in, but I also loved how he added in, the athletic component.

Michael Hammond [00:16:37]: You know, he talked about Meijer's doing stuff like plyometrics, which I definitely did in my career. I mean, it was definitely I was very my program was very drill focused. You know? Yes. We spent a lot of time running. Yes. We did long runs. Yes. We did volume hard workouts and stuff, but there was a lot of drills, a lot of weights, a lot of, plyometrics, like you mentioned, and hard drills, not just like going through the motions, like drills that got you exhausted from these the the movements that you were doing.

Michael Hammond [00:17:04]: So I love his arguments. I knew from the get go that I was gonna be in favor of the mile, but I I appreciate Rory making a very kind of, like, broad spectrum argument for it. And I I pretty much totally agree with all of his points.

Cory Nagler [00:17:18]: Awesome. Yeah. I think there were some great points for Maury. You touched earlier on looking for something that has that breadth in terms of the combination of measurable traits like speed or VO 2 max, and also the the non quantifiables, the the tactics, the how hard is it? And it it definitely has it all. That's, right off the gun, what Rory started off with. But I think this argument he made about how spectator friendly it is and accessible is a really compelling argument, and made me rethink a little bit how we measure fitness. Because I think if you're looking at what is actually going to be a best test of fitness, we'll get back to the Ultra, and there's some really unique tests involved in that. But it's not something everybody can go out and do.

Cory Nagler [00:18:01]: Whereas the the mile, you've got a larger sample size of people who are competing in it, and you've got a test that just about anybody can take. So right off the bat, I think those were some really strong arguments from Morrie.

Michael Hammond [00:18:13]: Yeah. I like that because, ultimately, what if the most fit person on earth is someone who does some random bizarre activity, like push a boulder up a mountain and I I don't know. What if it's something like that that's just, as you said, totally inaccessible, not relatable to the average person. Your average person can't do it. The average person can go out and and run a mile or at least attempt to run a mile or or has run a mile at some point in their lives even if it's back in, you know, PE class and and school. So I do love that accessibility, but I I do have to touch on also the kinda strategic component that we had talked about that I had alluded to earlier. Really, what I mean by that is, you know, most most people, they enter a mile race and it's just you just run hard from the gun and and that's kind of that. When you get to a level where you're actually competing at a at a high level in a mile race, I really found that it was, in my opinion, the the per I think the 1500 meter.

Michael Hammond [00:19:06]: I I must clarify here. I think the 1500 meter is the perfect race. And the 1500 meter for those for our Americans, the 1500 meter is the met is, the metric mile is is what it's widely known as. Really, the mile is more of a derivative of the 1500 than than the opposite in terms of how it is on a global stage. But what I love about the race is that I think of it kind of like as like a running chess match. You know, there's in in the 800 meter, if you go down to the 800 meter, it's really just a sustained sprint. You know, you kinda just you typically, the fastest guy who is in the race is the one who's gonna win. You move up to the 5000 meters, and it's a very it's a very heavy endurance event.

Michael Hammond [00:19:44]: Yet again, typically, the person with the fastest time coming in, the fastest person most of the time is gonna win. The 1500, on the other hand, and the mile, you can really get it's a bit of a mixed bag because there's such a strategic component to it. I'll I'll point to in 2016 at the Olympics, Matt Centrowitz, American, won gold in the 1500 meter. Centrow was not the fastest guy in that field. The, he was I'd say from a PR standpoint, I wish I knew this off the top of my head, but he was probably somewhere 6th, 7th ish from a PR standpoint in terms of his his best time. And the fastest guy in the field was almost 4 seconds faster than him from a PR standpoint. Azbel Kiprop had had run 326. He's since been banned for EPO.

Michael Hammond [00:20:29]: But but nonetheless, he was at the time, he hadn't been banned and he had run 326 in the 1500. Sintro had run 3:30. And yet Sintro ran just a perfect strategic race. I mean, just absolutely perfect. The type of race, like I said, that makes you think of a chessboard because he he pinned him into a corner to where Kiprop couldn't use his massive crazy kick. The guy's, like, 6 foot 4, longest legs you've ever seen. He couldn't use it because Centro had had just absolutely pinned him into a corner, painted him into a wall, and perfectly, perfectly, perfectly ran the race and and won gold. So I love the strategic component.

Michael Hammond [00:21:03]: I think that that adds such a mental element to it that's that's a little bit unique and different, from other races. Not that it's absent from other races. I just think that the 1500 meter is just like the perfect chess match, in running.

Cory Nagler [00:21:16]: Yeah. I I think it is a very strong point. Just one final thought to leave off on before we move to the next one. But is there a tiny part of you that feels like maybe if it were a better measure that Aspel Kiprop, who's got the higher speed, should be the one coming out on top?

Michael Hammond [00:21:32]: That's a good point. That's a really good point. You you kinda you kinda got me there. Here. There there's our chess match going on here on on this podcast. But, no, it's a it's a great point. I I think that my reasoning there was more that you're right. It maybe it doesn't fit the mold for pure if we're talking about pure fitness, yeah, that that doesn't really fit the mold.

Michael Hammond [00:21:51]: I think in terms of if if we answer the if we phrase the question more as, like, most challenging race, like, holistically, maybe my answer would be better. And, again, I'm I'm a Homer here. I'm a miler. I love arguing for it. It's just fun. But, no, that's a that's a really good point. If we're talking pure fitness, the fittest guy most of the time would win, and that's still the case. You know? It's not like it's not like the the underdog always wins in the 1500 meter.

Michael Hammond [00:22:16]: It's just more I like how there's that chance. I think it makes the race much much more fun to watch. I mean, why are why are so many of the popular sports in the world fun to watch? Because you don't necessarily know who's gonna win. There's so many variables, so many elements. That's one reason, unfortunately, that a lot of running races, let's be honest, can be kinda boring because it's it's not a guarantee that the fastest person's gonna win. But most of the time on a in a global races, the 12 55 k guy is gonna beat the 13025 k guy. Most of the time, that's gonna happen. The 1500 meter and the mile present a just mix it up a little bit.

Michael Hammond [00:22:54]: Shake up the bag a little bit and make it a little and a tiny bit more interesting, I think. So, again, we're I'm definitely arguing a much more broad version of it. It's you're right. Your point is is excellent that it may not necessarily measure fitness perfectly because of the, the argument I'm making makes it less likely to to fit that mold. So, yeah, that's a good point.

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Jeff Gaudette [00:25:45]: connect.

Cory Nagler [00:25:51]: I'm just having fun, but I I I think it is an interesting argument to have, regardless though. 10 times out of 10, if I'm racing either one of Centrowitz or, or, Kipropp or any one of those athletes, they're they're kicking my butt. No doubt.

Michael Hammond [00:26:05]: We'll get you the right night strategy, Corey. I'm telling you.

Cory Nagler [00:26:08]: Alright. I'll I'll I'll reach out for that perfect strategy.

Michael Hammond [00:26:11]: You got it, man. I'm ready. Awesome.

Cory Nagler [00:26:13]: Alright. I, I think we will come back to the mile in our final assessment, but, let's give it up for the argument, which is Andy who's gonna make her case for the 10 k. So let's hand it off.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:26:24]: Okay. I might have a little bias, but when it comes to the fastest or the fittest runner, I'm gonna go with the 10 ks. I ran the 10 ks in college, but that's not the reason why I believe this is the, epitome of the fastest runner. The reason that I think so is and I I'm coming at this from the perspective of a 10 k runner on the track, which is 25 laps around the track. So the way I see that is it's kind of like the marathon of distance events. So the way that you mentally have to handle that type of race is super challenging because it's so long and drawn out in a in a on a track where it's just endless laps. And so I think that 10 k runners in order to succeed at the 10 k distance on the track have to have a decent amount of mental, fortitude and strength in order for them to compete at that distance, which I think personally when you then extrapolate that out to the marathon, those 10 k runners are probably better able to also, tackle a marathon distance. The other reason and if we're thinking about from the speed angle, 10 k runners are also kind of somewhere in the in between of, yes, it's the longest distance that you can race on the track, but in terms of leg speed, they also have the ability to swing down to the shorter distances.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:27:46]: So their range of abilities could be from anywhere from the mile up to the marathon, so their ability to compete and be, a force in any event distance event is is more probable than some of maybe the other runners where their their range might be a little bit smaller. So, you know, I think from the 10 k's perspective, yeah, we you have the ability to, you have the endurance. You also have the speed. So we can go different directions with, ability wise, you know, with that. And then you add in the mental strength of being able to manage 25 laps around the track, just makes you a better runner to be able to have that resilience mentally and physically. So in my opinion, you put all those things together, and the 10 k runners are gonna be the fastest mostly just because they have, so much more, ability and breadth to kind of move in different directions and tackle different distances and still succeed or be near the top. So, you know, some other shorter distances, we may not be able to see them have as much range. We're seeing a little bit of that, I think, now, but I think 10 k runners have that that ability to go, other direction.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:28:55]: So that's the case I'm making for the 10 k and, excited to hear what everyone else thinks.

Cory Nagler [00:29:02]: Okay. The marathon of distance events. Michael, what do you think? Are you buying the argument, or are you still a homer for the mile?

Michael Hammond [00:29:10]: I think Andy might kinda sorta have me convinced. I think the the biggest part of her argument that I really appreciated and and kinda got me pondering is the sort of like adaptability. I'm trying to remember the exact way that she just phrased it, but it was sort of the, the ability to go either direction. You know? I think the range

Cory Nagler [00:29:29]: she said.

Michael Hammond [00:29:29]: Yeah. The range. Yeah. The the thing that has me thinking about is well, a couple things. 1, I have to put in is that as a at runners connect, when we're coaching people, one of the things I'll commonly say is, I love when someone has a 10 k time when they sign up for us because it or like a recent 10 k time because it's a really good overall indicator of fitness. If if someone just has, like, a 5 k time, for instance, the 5 k can be, as I said at the beginning of this, it's not a speed event, but it can be a a little bit more speed oriented than some of the longer stuff. If they have a marathon the marathon is just so variable. You know, the marathon, there's a 1,000,000,000 different variables going on whether, you know, you're fueling whatever.

Michael Hammond [00:30:14]: The 10 k or the half marathon are typically from my from our perspective as coaches at Runners Connect, generally coaching people for the marathon or or whatever distance. Generally speaking, I want to see a 10 k or a half. But I loved her point about the kind of how you can move around because the second point I wanted to make is that when I think of a great 10 k runner, most great 10 k runners can step down and run a a pretty solid mile. They can also step up and probably run a pretty solid marathon even in their 10 k fitness. Like, they're they're so fit. You have to be so fit to run a great 10 k. You you maybe not maybe you need a few extra, like, long long runs or or long workouts, but you're in pretty good marathon fitness. Not every great miler can step up and run a great 10 k.

Michael Hammond [00:31:00]: A lot of them can, but not not all of them. And not every great marathoner can step down and run a really great 10 k. A lot of them can, but but not all of them. I do I like her argument about the 10 k being very, like, adaptable. The range of a 10 k runner being, you know, in both ways being very good. I think she from a pure fitness standpoint, I think she if we're if that's the only metric we're looking at is fitness, who's the fittest runner, I think she might, she might kinda have me convinced, I gotta say. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:31:30]: And I think it's such an interesting argument in part because you see it sometimes for the multisport events. Like, the decathlete, I think, is often sometimes referred to as as being some of the fittest athletes, but it it is true. I found that whether I'm training for the marathon or or the 5 k, oftentimes, the 10 k time is a pretty good predictor.

Michael Hammond [00:31:50]: Definitely. You mentioned the decathlete, by the way. I, 1 year at the US championships, I was running the 1500. I was warming up, and I was I was on the practice field. I was right next to Trey Hardy who I think he won at least one Olympic medal, silver or bronze. I don't recall which one he won, but it was just kinda funny to be next to this guy. I was, like, you know, a £140 soaking wet at the time, and and I'm I'm up just kinda standing next to this guy warming up, and he's just, like, I mean, built like a Greek god. I mean, just this huge guy.

Michael Hammond [00:32:21]: And I was like, alright. I admit. I I think I'm a I'm a fast guy. I think I'm a good athlete, but that's that's an athlete right there. Like, that that is an athlete. So, yeah, you're right. No no doubt the fitness there. But, yeah, I think the 10 k is I love I love talking about it because it's a especially if you think about, like, a track 10 k or a road 10 k.

Michael Hammond [00:32:39]: They're they're both very similar. It's very much like a rhythm race. You know, you you go down to the 5 k. I've heard that the 5 k described is, like, 3 hard miles, and the the 10 k is is more of, like, rhythm. You can settle into an actual rhythm. You're not just, like, sprinting as hard as you can the entire time in a 10. You know? So and yet it's not one of those super, super long races where you have to worry about your fueling and you have to, you know, fat fat adapt and all this crazy stuff you have to do for, like, for the full marathon. So, yeah, I I really think I'm I'm coming around from that fitness perspective.

Michael Hammond [00:33:13]: Who's the fittest, you know, distance runner out there, 1500 meters mile and up? And I I think, I don't know, my brain is starting to shift in direction of the 10 k.

Cory Nagler [00:33:24]: Yeah. I I came into this with the 10 k maybe being at the bottom of my list of the of the events we were looking at. But it's it is so true that you have to be good at just about any event. The one, the one question I still have in my mind, just to play devil's advocate, is coming back to the common phrase of jack of all trades, master of none, and it's which are these 10 k athletes? Are they the most diverse, the broadest range athletes, or is it just that they are not as specialized as somebody? And and that kind of, to me, is the crux of whether or not these are the fittest athletes.

Michael Hammond [00:34:00]: Well, a way I just thought about it while you were ask while you were pondering that, a way I just thought about it was if we did sort of like a a decathlon of endurance races, If we took these people, if we took, you know, the mile specialist and the 10 k specialist and the marathon specialist and the ultra marathon specialist and we had all of them race over those four distances, the mile, the 10 k, the marathon, the ultra. I have to say in terms of just just that alone, just kinda looking at we're, like, isolating the variables here. We're looking at specific things. I think that given that alone, I have to wonder if the 10 k runner wouldn't win that because I think the 10 k runner would smoke the marathon the marathoner and the ultra marathoner at the mile, Would would smoke them at the 10 because it's the 10. Everyone gets to win their respective event, but in terms of, like, where they place. And then at the long stuff, I think that they would be competitive, and I think they would smoke the certainly the miler at any of the long stuff. So I I really do wonder from that perspective of pure fitness and just relating it to these other events, comparing it to these other events, yeah, I like I said, I I I don't know. I don't wanna be I don't wanna be, like, a flip flopper here, you know, and and just go in with whatever is the most recent thing, but I think the 10 k might have me convinced from that element of who is the fittest distance runner.

Cory Nagler [00:35:17]: If ESPN is listening, I really hope they pick this up because I'm so excited by the prospect of this cross distance event. I I I will move us over to the marathon, which is our next event. But just before I do have to say, my money still might be on Kipchoge if you did have to pull off that event.

Michael Hammond [00:35:34]: Oh, come on. Kipchoge's porting pushing 40 now. No way, man. He can't he can't run a mile anymore. In his heyday, though, my goodness, you go watch like that I think it was like 90 8 or something when he won the 5 k. He was, like, 18 years old, won the 5 k at the world championships. Yeah. He was in his day, he was I mean, he's obviously still freaky freaky good, but, no.

Michael Hammond [00:35:53]: I think I think he gets smoked nowadays.

Cory Nagler [00:35:56]: Yeah. We we forget how quick these marathoners are. So Indeed. I think I'll pass it over to Jeff who's gonna be our advocate today for the marathon distance. Jeff, let's hear your strongest case.

Jeff Gaudette [00:36:06]: So I'm gonna argue for the marathon being the most difficult event. Now I know you're gonna hear from the other coaches about how long searing the mile is or how difficult the half marathon can be, But the marathon presents many of those same physical challenges as well, and I'll get to them in a little bit. But the challenges of the marathon present themselves well outside the race itself. It includes the difficulty of training for 1 and the complication of fueling and hydration. These are elements that no other race distance can even come close to challenging. Let me get started with the training. There's no doubt that training for the marathon is more difficult than any other race distance. You need to run the most miles and dedicate the most time to training.

Jeff Gaudette [00:36:51]: The long runs increase your chance of getting injured due to the time on your feet and form changes that happen late in the run when you're fatigued. Not to mention leaving you exhausted the rest of the day. The workouts are long and while not necessarily grueling individually, they wear you out over time. If you've ever trained for a marathon, then you're well aware of that walking zombie feeling you get in the final 2 to 3 weeks of hard training. Now let's get to nutrition and hitting the wall. In no other event is nutrition so critical to performance. You could be in the best shape of your life, but misstep your fueling and you'll be walking in the last few miles. Fueling can be a pretty complicated part of the marathon race to figure out as well.

Jeff Gaudette [00:37:30]: How much fuel do you need? What type is best? Gels, gummies, etcetera. What brand? What flavors? The possibilities are almost endless. Then you add in nutrition. How will you carry it? What will you take on the course? What about electrolytes, caffeine, and more? Sure. These things aren't physical, but they do make the marathon the most demanding event. Now let's get to the race itself. First off, let's start with the race the start of the race. You need to have a ton of patience to run a good marathon.

Jeff Gaudette [00:38:00]: You can't get caught up in the early adrenaline. You need to patiently weave your way through the crowds, and you need to hold your pace back even though you feel good. Now I don't know about you, but patience is not my strong suit. Now let's move on to the most obvious difficulty of the marathon, the tired dead legs and overall fatigue you get in the final miles. There is nothing that can prepare you for that absolutely dead leg, can barely move my lower extremities feeling you get towards the end of a marathon. Now some great great racism might not feel quite as bad, but it's still a fight to the finish every mile and every meter after 20 miles. This leads to my next guilt difficulty, mental fatigue. It's very very easy to get tired in the marathon and let your pace slip especially if you're train if you're racing to achieve a qualifying time like a Boston qualifier or something that's super important to you.

Jeff Gaudette [00:38:49]: You need to nail your pace specifically mile after mile after mile after mile, and this become mentally difficult as well. So when you combine all of the challenges from the training, the nutrition, the mental fatigue, the patience that's needed, the obviously grueling end of the race, the marathon is by far the hardest event that you can run. And don't let the eldest coaches persuade you, the marathon is it.

Cory Nagler [00:39:13]: Strong arguments from Jeff for the marathon. Michael, what's your response?

Michael Hammond [00:39:18]: Yeah. No kidding. And and Jeff, he didn't mention this, but Jeff has run oh, I can't remember. 218 or 2/19 in the marathon back in about, I think, 08 or 09 is about where he ran that. So he he he's speaking from personal experience about the marathon. I I definitely appreciate where he's coming from, and this is where it really gets into the semantics. I actually you know, for the listeners, I messaged Corey about this earlier today because I was like, hey. What's the exact criteria here? What are we talking about? Because we can we can get broad, we can get specific, and that's really what I think is gonna determine, you know, what we go with because Jeff made great arguments.

Michael Hammond [00:39:53]: There's no doubt that training for the marathon has the training element, I really liked that that's a big thing that he focused on was not necessarily just running the race, but actually training for it. It's not that training for shorter events is easy. By by no means is that the case. And, again, I can speak from experience having done some grueling, you know, track sessions for a 1500 for the mile, you know, those are those have their own challenge too, but I do think a big thing I've always thought with with marathon training is, is just the time, the time element that you have to commit in order to, to put in that training and and to actually be ready to go. I mean, we always say at Runners Connect, we wanna see someone this is bare minimum. This we're talking about someone running their 1st marathon or who who tip is is trying to run 4 hours or slower or thereabouts. We want them running at least at least 2 or 3 16 mile long runs in training. At least.

Michael Hammond [00:40:48]: That's that's just our bare minimum so that we can send you to the line and feel comfortable that you're gonna be able to actually finish, you know, and that that's bare minimum. You think about this, the time element of that, of someone who's running, let's say, 10 minute, 11 minute miles on a day to day basis going out and running 16, 18 miles on the weekend. That's a huge, huge time component. If they're trying to run 35, 40 miles a week plus, which is what we recommend, like, again, trying to get that to be your minimum for running a marathon, just the time commitment that you have to be out there. And then you you add on, like he said, the fueling and, fueling both in terms of, like, general fueling, but also fueling getting ready to fuel for the race, which is so, so pivotal. It's much more than just take a gel and you're good. It's like you you gotta practice this stuff in training. He makes great arguments.

Michael Hammond [00:41:36]: I I still think that right now I'm leaning towards from a purely best test of fitness, who's the fittest. I'm still, I think, leaning 10 k from from that pure element, but I but I like his arguments, kind of that holistic argument about the marathon being, you know, the best test of fit the best, like, fitness test and and kinda most grueling from a lot of other elements.

Cory Nagler [00:42:00]: I'm very torn because I resonate strongly with this piece about range. But one thing that stands out to me about Jeff's argument there in terms of the training is how much work you have to put into it. And I think I love that about the sport and distance running is that if you put in the work, you'll be rewarded. And there's no distance like the marathon, where you really need to put in the work, not just for the runs, but to practice your fueling too, and getting rest and putting in the strength if you wanna succeed because if you don't, you're gonna pay for it on race day.

Michael Hammond [00:42:31]: No doubt. I I like that too. I like that element that, you know, you can't the way I was saying it earlier when I was saying, like, the 5 k when I was saying the 5 k for some time for some people is not a great indicator of fitness. One of the reasons for that and I, again, I don't wanna disparage the 5 k. The 5 k is a grueling event in its own right, very difficult to train for. You have to do some very tough workouts in order to really, really run your fastest 5 k. But I think the way I would phrase that is almost like you can't fake a marathon. You can't.

Michael Hammond [00:43:00]: You you can't fake a marathon. You can't half ass training and then and then run a good marathon. You you gotta put in the work. There's no doubt about that. A 5 k, you can just kinda get away with a little bit more. You have a little bit more wiggle room training for a 5 k. If you're trying to run really fast, again, you get into a different element. There's there's much, like I said, grueling sessions and and all sorts of hard stuff that you have to do.

Michael Hammond [00:43:23]: But but in terms of, yeah, I I in terms of a training perspective, in order to to to just run the whole thing, just to actually complete and run the whole thing. So I agree with you from that standpoint.

Cory Nagler [00:43:43]: Yeah. I I think the one wild card in this debate that didn't even come up is the idea of unpredictability in the marathon. Even if you are super fit, there's so much that can go wrong, that you never really know what to expect. And even as somebody who's run several marathons, I'm still always nervous towing the line about whether I'm even gonna finish. So I think that could go either way. You could argue that that makes it a really good test of fitness, that you can be prepared and have things go wrong. But on the flip side, you could say that the fittest person maybe doesn't always win because stuff happens.

Michael Hammond [00:44:16]: I mean, I was just listening to your podcast with Rory, earlier earlier this morning, and and y'all were talking about one of the things he mentioned was that he ran Boston in 2018, the infamous Boston, where it was pouring rain. It was like 35 degrees, And, it's Yuki Kawachi, I believe, is is how you say his name, won won the men's race. I mean, Yuki Kawachi should not have been winning that race. Like, in any any normal circumstance, Yuki Kawachi is nowhere near winning that race. It's there's just no chance that he wins that race. And he just persevered. He persevered through those insane conditions. And, again, much more accomplished from a personal best standpoint, athletes faded back and he he passed them and won.

Michael Hammond [00:45:02]: So, yeah, I I agree that the marathon certainly has that insane level of unpredictability because of all the variables. That's kinda something I mentioned earlier about sometimes the marathon not being a good test of fitness just because of those variables because so many things can go wrong for you. That's why, again, when I'm when I'm looking at if as a coach, when I'm looking at an athlete and looking at their fitness, trying to make sure that their training is structured well for them, I look for ideally, like, a 10 k or a half because of the the fewer variables. So I guess you could argue that either way. It's a good test of fitness, but also you could argue it's sometimes it's not good good one because of those extra variables. So it's it's a good question. It's a it's a difficult topic to to kinda, like, laser in on.

Cory Nagler [00:45:43]: Yeah. I think it could swing either way in this debate. Either way, it's something that I love about the event. I I think it's part of the fun.

Michael Hammond [00:45:50]: Yeah. Of course. Yeah. That's definitely that's that's kinda what I was saying with the 1500 and the mile earlier is I think the the variability is part of what makes it fun. You know, that's no one wants to watch something where the outcome is is is too predictable. Too predictable of an outcome makes it boring. There's not that, you know, element of you know, when someone watches an NFL game, the NFL gets a lot of crap because, like, oh, people are like you'll oh, it's a because people have short attention spans. That's why people like the NFL.

Michael Hammond [00:46:15]: That's not true at all. The NFL has there's so many moving parts. If you're watching an NFL game, yes, the plays are only 5, 10 seconds long or whatever, but there are so many moving parts there. You know, there's so many elements to what goes into a game. I think that's a huge part of for, like, super fans of the NFL. That's a huge part of what's interesting. My dad's a big MLB baseball fan and is a you know, they know the stats and they they've got all these numbers and and Moneyball and all this crazy stuff. You really realize, like, no.

Michael Hammond [00:46:42]: These sports are much more complicated than running. So I think the more variables, sometimes the better in in a lot of ways. The more unpredictability, the better from a popularity standpoint.

Cory Nagler [00:46:53]: I think the the unpredictability does add an element of fun. And, I think we'll hear a little bit more about that unpredictability piece with the ultramarathon. So well, let's give it to our final argument. This one in favor of the ultramarathon, and Hailey's gonna be stating her case. Hailey, take it away.

Coach Hayley [00:47:10]: Hey, everyone. So today, I'm gonna answer the question, which distance do I think is the best test of fitness? And I'm gonna go with the ultra marathon. I've actually started doing ultra marathons in the past year, which is kind of a crazy switch considering I was a math a road marathon runner for over 10 years, and I never would have thought I'd have changed to the ultra marathon distance. But since doing so, I have loved it so much. And one of the things that I love is that there are so many components to success in the ultra marathon distance, which leaves so many more opportunities to improve, so many more areas to work on. And I kind of felt I lacked that in the marathon distance where despite having quite a lot of endurance, I was always limited by by my speed really. My marathon and five ks times kind of converged. So why do I think that the ultra marathon is the best test of fitness? When you look at the definition of, fitness in the dictionary, it it talks about being, physically strong and physically healthy as as the sort of main part of fitness.

Coach Hayley [00:48:20]: And what I've found since doing ultras is that you have to be both healthy and strong, which wasn't necessarily the case as much for me doing the short distances. When I ran marathons, I was often not on my most healthy. I did, when I kind of knew a little less, I had a tendency to over train and not fuel as well. But often I was still able to to kind of make it to the start line and perform okay. But since beginning ultra training, I found that there is much more of a requirement for your body to be in its healthiest place. You can be slightly undertrained on the start line, but still pull off a good race if you're able to feel well and you go into that race with the mental and physical energy, that comes from from looking after yourself. And then in terms of being strong, I was definitely not my strongest self when I did short distances. I kind of shied away from doing any sort of weight training or strength training.

Coach Hayley [00:49:23]: And actually, I I ran my best marathon times doing that. Not that that was why around my best ones, but I was able to to get away with that. But since doing Otis, I've found that there's much need more of a need for all around strength. The there are so many different demands, you know, different terrain, mud, rocks, snow even. And then there's climbing, like, and descending, which just requires so much all around strength. And then your arms come into it sometimes if you're you're kind of scrambling over rocky terrain or or using poles, and that's just not something I found in in short distances. Obviously, there's a terrain element to that as well. But for me, ultra math and distance is where I've had to be my healthiest and my strongest, which according to the dictionary is the definition of a fitness.

Coach Hayley [00:50:16]: So I think the ultra is the best test of the fitness runner.

Cory Nagler [00:50:22]: What a great and personal response from Hailey. And, again, yet another compelling case. Michael, what are your thoughts on the ultra marathon at this point?

Michael Hammond [00:50:31]: Yeah. I was looking forward to Haley's response because, you know, she's been kinda letting the team know her journey in terms of kinda transitioning to running ultras, So I was curious to hear what she had to say. I appreciate her not just defaulting to the race is long and thus it's hard. The race is long and thus you have to be fit. I appreciate her bringing other aspects into it, in particular, the strength element. You know, I know we we said we're not we're not looking for who's the who's the bulkiest, who has the most muscle or anything like that, but we are we are looking at who's the fittest. And I think that Haley I mean, hey, Haley kind of, you know, we talked about that chess match earlier. Haley Haley kind of, checkmated us with, hey.

Michael Hammond [00:51:11]: This is by definition in the dictionary. This is this is kind of meets, meets that criteria. So I appreciate that she brought that in because you think about an ultra marathon in particular, you know, something on, like, grueling trails. Yeah, there's it's definitely a huge portion of it is just your aerobic fitness, of course. Like, you have to have that. You can't get away without that. But definitely, it does add in an element that may be like a flat road marathon doesn't in terms of, you know, just your pure raw strength and being able to get up and down those hills, you know, go around curves and and all sorts of stuff that you have to deal with in an ultra marathon that you may not have to deal with on in a in a marathon. The the other element that I appreciate you brought in was, like, your overall health and and I think that that's while maybe not necessarily what I would have thought of right away when we're talking about who's the fittest runner, I do appreciate that she brought it in.

Michael Hammond [00:52:07]: I like that she brought that in because, I think that we can all agree, we can all understand that sometimes running long distance races is not necessarily from a pure physical physiological standpoint is not necessarily always a healthy thing. You You know, I'm not saying it's bad for you, but it's not necessarily always a healthy thing. If you were running purely for for health reasons, you would go run like half an hour a day. You know. That's that's pretty much what you do. From a pure health standpoint, that would probably be that optimum, you know, stimulus and also not, like, obliterating your body like you can do in in marathon training and such. So I think that's a I think she made a good argument. I think I'm still leaning very much in terms of the shorter a little bit shorter than that as being, like, the the best test of fitness, but I think she made really good holistic arguments that I wasn't quite expecting.

Michael Hammond [00:52:58]: I really was expecting the Ultra to just be like, hey, it's long, it's hard, that's it. You know, that's said and done, which is a solid argument, but I don't think would have even come close to convincing me. And, I think Haley really went in-depth with that, and I'm I'm pretty impressed.

Cory Nagler [00:53:13]: Yeah. I think what makes it such a strong case is is using her own experience and background about how she was mainly competing in the marathon. And it's it's through going through this process of of training for an ultra marathon that she realized all the all the strength and preparation and general health that's required for it. And we actually will be doing a podcast where we talk about Haley's experience at the ultra marathon, which should be coming out later this month that I'm that I'm excited for. The one irony in this, I think though is you just alluded to an optimal health, you'd probably be running 20, 30 minutes a day. It is kind of funny the to make that argument for ultra events where you're going out and running for astronomical amounts of time, but I I I recognize that the training is very different from the race itself.

Michael Hammond [00:53:58]: Right. And I think she's I think there's a couple elements to that. I think, one, she's talking about you have to be, you know, fit you have to be healthy in order to handle that. Like, in order to handle not just that grueling amount of training, but also the the terrain and and everything else that you have to handle, there is a certain, like, level of health you have to have. So it's sort of like a prerequisite almost for running it. But I I think the other element is that to to do, you know, something like an ultra I think I think for any of these types of races look. That's why I brought that up was that, you know, if we're talking pure physiological health, again, I don't I don't really think it, you know, most people would say it wouldn't even make sense to run more than about half an hour. But for any of these races, there's that element.

Michael Hammond [00:54:41]: For the ultra, I think that, you know, by doing by doing, like, different terrain and and those longer types of workouts and and having to be ready for that, I do wonder if that does sort of add that that sort of health element to it as that prerequisite that you have to have that baseline in order just to to even be ready to do it. I think that's what she's trying to argue, and I think that's a that's a solid argument. It still still kinda gets into that sort of like, yeah, you are out there running for hours and hours and hours at a time like that. That can't necessarily be by default a healthy thing. But, of course, we have that in the mental component as always with this stuff and sometimes the healthiest mental thing for you can be to go run 3 hours in the woods and or in the mountains or whatever. So,

Cory Nagler [00:55:25]: yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:55:25]: I think it was I think I think Haley made really good arguments. I appreciate her bringing in that strength component, the health component, some stuff I wasn't really expecting from, ultras.

Cory Nagler [00:55:34]: Yeah. And we often think of sort of endurance in the physical aspect. But I think when you're talking about mental challenge, certainly the miler 10 k is a mental challenge, but there's a different sort of an endurance component to that mental challenge over the ultra. The other thing is you, you alluded to this fact that you have to be healthy in the ultra marathon in order to get there. And I think it's very true. We talk sometimes even at the elite level in marathoning about how sometimes runners will sort of be walking the line or or clinging to something. Whereas in the ultra marathon, it's just too long. If if you're really walking that line, you're you're not making it to the finish line.

Michael Hammond [00:56:09]: Right. Right. Exactly. Like, the that you can you can straddle that line for some of those shorter races and and get away with it. You know, even though it may not be good for you, you can kinda get away with it. But you're not your butt's not finishing on an ultra marathon if you're not at at a certain level of I think that's that's what she's trying to argue. I don't know that I necessarily, like, fully agree with that because, let's be honest, there's plenty of unhealthy runners at at all these levels, you know, at all these types of races. There's plenty of healthy ones too, lots of them, but there's plenty of unhealthy ones too.

Michael Hammond [00:56:36]: So I think that it's it's it was just an intriguing argument to me, and I I think that maybe it has some merit, but I still yeah, I I still I don't think I'm quite swayed up. I think it was a good argument. She made great arguments. I I'm impressed, and I look forward to hearing her story, by the way, on on the podcast because I I've been loving following it with it kind of internally within the team. But, but I look forward to hearing that from Haley.

Cory Nagler [00:56:59]: Yeah. We're, we're gonna record shortly. But on this piece, I think so. If you're not fully sold on the ultra marathon, that brings us to our final question of what is the best test of fitness? Just before you officially state your thoughts, let's kinda hear a summary of what do you think are some of the strongest arguments that we've heard today?

Michael Hammond [00:57:19]: Yeah. I I think the I think the mile there were some some good arguments that Rory made in terms of the, like, explosive elements and and, I mean, kind of strength, which is funny because we're also going to that with the ultra marathon stuff. But he talked about runners have you know, milers having to do plyometrics and and short drills and and the speed component to it. I think that was probably the most from a fitness standpoint, I think that was probably the most convincing part of the mile. For the 10 k, I loved Andy's argument about the versatility of a 10 k runner, their ability to step down to our the lowest event we're talking about, the mile, and be competitive. Step up to the marathon, the ultra marathon, and still be competitive, you know, just based on their 10 k prowess and fitness. I think that was a great argument. Jeff's was really about the training, which I think was is is a huge component.

Michael Hammond [00:58:10]: I mean, let's be honest. The race is only, you know, less than 1% of what we're doing for all this stuff. Right? The race is just that thing at the end of the line. The training is is 99% of it. That's what goes into it. That's what you're doing on a day to day, week to week basis. So I think that's a good argument. He he's basically saying the marathon training is is harder than all the other stuff, than the training for all these other races, which I think has has some merit.

Michael Hammond [00:58:35]: I think that's a great argument to make for the marathon. And then Haley's for the Ultra was kinda bringing in that sort of, like, holistic health element that you have to have this certain level of health and fitness in order to even train for it and do it. And and she also brought in the the the kind of Webster definition, which I really liked as well. So I think all 4 of them made tremendous arguments that I could I could totally see where someone would choose. Well, I'm I'm not necessarily, like, you know, one there's no one of these answers that I'd be like, no. No way. There's no way I'll even consider that as a possible winner. I think they all made really good arguments.

Cory Nagler [00:59:11]: I think they're all super strong arguments. I think you summarized quite well what the main arguments were. I will say, going into this, my heart was kinda with the marathon. That's really the distance I've been training for lately, and I think as is just talked about there. There's so much training and hard work and preparation that's required for it. But I'm gonna jump the gun and give you my thoughts. And then then I want you to to push back or agree with me. But I think Andy made such a strong case for for range in terms of being able to go to different distances.

Cory Nagler [00:59:44]: And yet, I still think that that extra piece of endurance for the for the marathon is so compelling that I'm going for wild card. And I think hearing all these arguments together, I'm going for the half marathon, because I think it captures that range. But you still have some of that fueling aspect, and you still really need to put in the miles if you're gonna cover it. So I'm gonna I'm gonna go outside of the box a little bit here.

Michael Hammond [01:00:05]: I'm gonna say that you just did the podcasting version of of, performance enhancing drugs by bringing in a non answer to that was not one of the options, Corey. That was not one of the options we were presented with. No. That's a good answer, though. I think because what did I say earlier where I was talking about when we work with athletes at Runners Connect, I love when they have a recent half marathon time. That just makes our job so much easier in terms of working out their fitness because the, as I said, the 5 k just can be a little bit too speed oriented and almost, I don't wanna use the word faked, but it's in my head, that's the word I use is, like, it can be faked a little bit better than a half can, and then the marathon has so many variables to it. So it's it's a good answer. I'm I'm still mad at you that you you brought in a a a a 5th answer when we only had 4, but it's a good answer.

Michael Hammond [01:00:56]: I'm gonna I'm gonna you know what? I I know I kinda flip flopped in the middle there, but I'm gonna go back home and I'm gonna go with the mile. I really think that the mile is such a great test of of fitness from so many different angles, you know, with with just the endurance that's required. Like, you you have to have that base level of endurance, and yet you also have to add in this huge speed component, this, like, strength component, not necessarily from, like, again, how big are your muscles, but more like what power can you generate with your stride? You know, what what kind of power can you generate in order to literally be able to run that fast? You know, to run your fastest mile, you have to be able to run a 400 meter in a certain amount of time. You have to be able to generate that kind of power just in order to to do it, to physically be able to do the time that you wanna do. So I think that the the 10 k is so so convincing, and it's like it's like yanking at me, pulling at me because of that versatility argument. I think that's such a great I think the 10 k probably answers the question best in my mind of best test of overall fitness. I I think it probably answers that question, and yet I'm still gonna have to go with my hard here and, and and go with final answer is the mile.

Cory Nagler [01:02:11]: Yeah. It's it's a pretty hard answer to dispute, and I think because of how accessible it is, a lot of people will agree with you. And if you're listening along, whether you agree with us or you think these 2 guys are crazy, they've got it completely wrong, Depending what platform you're listening to, we're gonna try to attach a poll so you can actually let us know for yourself what you think the best test of fitness is. But Michael, I had a lot of fun discussing this today. Thank you so much for joining me.

Michael Hammond [01:02:36]: That was a lot of fun, Corey. Thank you so much. I had a great time.

Cory Nagler [01:02:40]: This was great. For everyone listening, happy running. Happy running, everybody. Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at corey_nagler, or through Strava by searching Corey Nagler. And please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast.

Cory Nagler [01:03:23]: Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, then consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netforward/podcast. I'll see you on the next show. But until then, happy running, everyone.