Preventing injuries before they happen

Finn Melanson [00:00:09]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn Malanson, and this is the run to the top podcast. The podcast dedicated to making you a better runner with each and every episode. We are created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the internet, as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. For many of you listening, running is probably an important part of your lives, and it can be extremely frustrating to have your progress derailed by an injury as frustrating as it may be These setbacks are common with some studies showing up to 65% of runners will face some kind of injury in a given year. How amazing would it be if you could prevent injuries before they happen and avoid the never ending cycle of going from one injury to the next? That's exactly what we'll be exploring in today's episode as we dive into what you can do to build resilience against injury. We're once again bringing on our expert coaches this time to explore the ways runners can avoid having their training interrupted by injuries. During today's show, You learn about why injuries happen, strategies to reduce your chances of becoming injured, how to tell an injury from a niggle that you can train through, and how to safely get back into training if you do find yourself injured. We all know consistency is key to meeting your running goals. So if you found yourself injured in the past, you simply want to improve your chances of staying healthy? This is the episode for you. don't let runners need to keep you from completing your long runs or worse sideline you altogether. An innovative new product called new knee has been clinically proven to deliver immediate relief from runner's knee. Head to runners connect dot net forward slash new knee that's spelled n u n e e to learn more and receive your 50% discount at checkout. Spots are filling up fast for our Orlando, Florida running retreat February 1st through 4th, take a break from the cold, get hands on coaching and watch the Olympic marathon trials. learn more at runners connect dot net forward slash winter.

Cory Nagler [00:02:30]: Thanks, Finn, and welcome everyone to the run to the top podcast. For any new listeners, I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And in today's show, we're gonna cover everything you need to know to stay healthy as you work towards your personal training goals. I have with me today 2 experts on the topic, Haley Mun and Alex Osberg. Both are part of our RC coaching team and are going to help cover the steps to become almost invincible against the redded running injury. Alex is a former d 1 NCAA athlete with a background in exercise physiology and currently training as a post collegiate runner while pursuing a graduate degree in public health at UNC Chapel Hill. Haley is a professional coach currently residing in the UK with experience in physiotherapy and a master's degree focusing on bone health and athletes. Alex Haley. Welcome to the show.

Alex Ostberg [00:03:18]: Hey, Corey. Thanks for having us. It's a pleasure to be back.

Cory Nagler [00:03:21]: Hi. Absolutely. So excited to have you on. I think This is a topic that's so applicable to just about any runners. Interiors are really commonplace and excited to kind of help people figure out what steps they can take to to prevent that. So I think a a great first place to start is maybe if you have your own experiences with injury, maybe, Alex, I don't know if you wanna start and then and then Haley, if you wanna speak to that as well.

Alex Ostberg [00:03:45]: Sure. unfortunately, I have a laundry list of orthopedic injuries that I've suffered throughout my career. This is one of those things where I tell people do, as I say, not as I do or have done, because I've certainly made my fair share of mistakes, And that being said, I I think I've learned a lot throughout the process and every runner who has experienced an injury, can attest to the fact that you learned so much from the process of going through it, and what you learned. So I think we'll talk a lot about those lessons learned today, but, yeah, I've had a couple of couple of surgeries, unfortunately, and then a handful of, of, stress injuries related to bones. So definitely very interested in hearing Haley's perspective given her area of expertise and research.

Cory Nagler [00:04:31]: Yeah. I know. Sorry to hear it, but glad you're doing a little better now for, those on the show, Alex just finished telling me about crushing a hill workout the other day. So glad you're at full health right now.

Alex Ostberg [00:04:39]: Thank you.

Cory Nagler [00:04:41]: Haley, any experience yourself?

Coach Hayley [00:04:43]: Yeah. I mean, I think I'm probably, a good example for people who think they never get injured, and then, like, it hits them because I spent the 1st kind of 10 years on my my running journey, like, happily avoiding injury, probably doing everything wrong, but somehow having quite kitchen ethics and and kind of probably just because I naturally gradually increased my training. I was able to avoid injury quite well. And then, suddenly, maybe like 4 or 5 years ago, I got my first ever injury, which was a bone stress injury, and yeah, it was a bit of a shock because I sort of thought to myself that it was quite injury proof and, not that anyone really is, it turned out, but, I've I've gotten like a full sense of security and gotten pretty bad at certain things, which probably led to the injury. So I totally agree that you learned so much from every injury because in a way that injury was a little bit of a blessing because it just reminded me for to take care of certain things and, thankfully, touch word of been okay since. So, yeah, a great learning experience, but not very nice at the time.

Cory Nagler [00:05:54]: Yeah. No. I'm sorry. Knock on wood for future injuries, but, Do you find that actually has helped your research to have your own experience with phone health injury?

Coach Hayley [00:06:02]: Yeah. I learned so much from that. And there were so many things that I kind of implemented, in my own special nutrition and also my training. yeah, it was just, such a massive learning experience, I'm really looking forward to to sharing some of the things I like because it was just it was such an eye opener to me, because I think just because of being a bit lucky before I've been able to to ignore some of the stuff that I should have been focusing on. So, yeah, I mean, I've had niggles little ones before, and I still do now, but I've never had a big one until that.

Cory Nagler [00:06:33]: Yeah. No. I find that very relatable. I consider myself a relatively injury proof runner, but I've still had experience with bone stress injuries recently coming off an IT band stuff. I've had hip injuries. I think most runners have kind of gone through a lot of different injuries So that's why we're here chatting about this today. I know we've kind of touched a little bit on some of the injuries. we've both gone through, but maybe, Haley, I'll start with you. I think something that's worth discussing is just kinda what are some of those most common injuries for runners. I think whether you're a runner who's gone through a lot yourself or Whether you're new to it and just wondering kind of what type of injuries are common, and it's good to kinda have a sense what's out there.

Coach Hayley [00:07:12]: Yeah. I think for most of us runners, we get the most of chronic overuse injuries. You know, we don't like we usually don't like pull hamstrings and stuff like sprinters, I mean, it can happen, but it's more that chronic overload stuff. So I think bone injuries is is quite a big one. kind of stress fractures of of the feet and the shading are quite common. and there's a lot of, tendon injuries as well. high hamstring, Achilles Tendant, they're like really common in athletes. yeah, I'd say they're probably the main ones, that you kind of like to come across I mean, there's so many on them, but, yeah, like yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:07:54]: Yeah. For sure, Alex, are there any others that jumped to mind in the maybe do you have any comments on kind of what are those most likely causes? I know it's Haley touched upon their their often kind of repeated stress but is there anything else that's a really common cause?

Alex Ostberg [00:08:08]: Sure. I think he only hit all the main points in terms of the the common injuries that that runners get. spending from, you know, plantar fasciitis kills tendinitis, it band syndrome, runner's knee. So that's patellar tendonitis, low back pain, high hamstring pain, and, and stress fractures. And I think you bring up a really good point here. It which is identifying the underlying cause because I think injuries generally fall into 2 buckets. if we're gonna generalize, one would be a soft tissue injury, and the other would be a bone injury. and and the rates of these are different. A lot of them depend on genetic factors. some of them depend on your, nutritional history and we'll we'll get into that. and so whenever I look at a runner, typically, you find patterns, with with with runners. There's typically the runner that, like, tends to get recurrent Achilles tendinitis, or there's injuries like myself, I've unfortunately gotten a lot of bone stress injuries. And I think I've learned over the years that there's different underlying causes at play here. mean, big picture, all of it really comes down to load management because every single soft tissue and every bone in your body has a certain capacity for stress a certain capacity for adaptation. And the definition of an injury basically is when you overwhelm the capacity of any tissue in the body, and you push it past the point of adaptation, to the point of strain or stress and it breaks. but when you look specifically at bones and when you look specifically at soft tissue injuries, I think you can look at 2 different causes here. My general assessment is that I think a lot of bone injuries are caused by, nutrition issues. you know, a lot of people will look at injuries and say, Hey, maybe I think that this is, has a biomechanic, underlying cause. And I tend to come back and I'll argue that, well, if all injuries have a biomechanic cause, then why do people who are in relative energy deficiency or, you know, for women who are not experiencing their menstrual periods or men within the lowest quartile of testosterone, there are studies saying that they have four 0.5 times rate of bone stress injuries. So to me, like, that's that's the elephant in the room right there. That's that's the cause. And so I think if you can get your, caloric intake and match that with your caloric expenditure, you're gonna be significantly lower risk for a bone injury. And then for me, and I don't have as much expertise on the soft tissue injuries. I'd be curious to hear Haley's perspective as well. I think that to avoid the soft tissue injuries, a lot of that will come down to, load. a lot of that comes down to a good range of motion, and loading the tissues properly. So a lot of people will know that for, like, an Achilles injury, a a typical protocol would be like eccentric calf, raises and drops. similar things with hamstrings. and so getting those tissues really strong is important, and you kind of have a different plan of attack.

Cory Nagler [00:10:56]: Yeah. I'm really glad you touched too on that nutrition point. I think for me, especially back when I had the bone dress injury in my foot, it was definitely related to nutrition and just realizing you need to get, get that nutrition in if you wanna stay healthy and you're putting in high loads of volume. So I think it's good to tie that in because a lot of the time we assume it's It's gotta be speed work or shoes or something along along those lines. I I do wanna be cognizant of the fact that as much as we've all dealt with a lot of injuries ourselves. We're still out here running and enjoying it. So this is not meant to scare anyone away. And what we're really here to discuss today is how to prevent injuries and stay healthy. So, let's get a little bit more into that piece. hey. We all I'll come back on this soft tissue piece, especially But just first, Alex, just since you kind of started touching on some of the strength work and other elements, what do you think are really those key things that runners can do to try to prevent injuries before they even happen and and to stay healthy.

Alex Ostberg [00:11:53]: Sure. I I think the research has evolved a lot and especially best practices have evolved a lot in recent years. I think the notion was, you know, 2030 years ago that runners need to stay out of the gym. and that any kind of strength training would instills this fear that they're gonna bulk up and gain mass and get hurt or get sore. And I think thankfully, the research has evolved to the point where, you know, it's hard to find an elite distance runner that's not incorporating some type of strength training into their program. because the reality is that, if you basically, what you do when you're running is you're doing a lot of light repetitive loading on the tissues in your body, But if you get in the weight room and you do the polar opposite of that, so you do a lot of heavy resistance training, that confers one of the biggest reductions in injury risk possible. So this is not something you wanna jump into and start doing tomorrow, like, a full blown strength program, but if you can ease in and get the, the movement patterns correct first and then start adding load, I have found tremendous benefit, and especially with a lot of athletes I've seen, by getting in and doing some squatting and dead lifting, especially. So these are, these are movements that really put you through a full range of motion they you can hit you're moving the ankle, the knee, and the hip joints, and you're building up a lot of strength and resilience in that tissue. such that when you go out and run, I think, yes, like in the beginning, there might be a little bit of soreness, but overall if you can consistently implement this into your program, I think tissue health becomes much better as a consequence. So that's one thing I'll talk about. I'll let Haley talk about some other strategies.

Cory Nagler [00:13:30]: For sure, Haley, you wanna dive into it?

Coach Hayley [00:13:33]: Yeah. Like, I absolutely agree with what Alex said about bone health, as that was my master's. I thought I should I should chime in there as well. I think people can talk about biomechanics, but, really, a lot of nearly all of bone stress injuries come back to to red us relative energy deficiency in sport. there are people with all kinds of biomechanics that that don't get stress fractures, and people with perfect biomechanics who do stress fractures, a lot of it comes down to getting the fuel that you need for running, and that's so important. And that's something that I really had to look at, for myself. I've worked with the dietitian after my injury because I'd I'd got sort of a bit stuck with refueling, get a bit busy, and actually was actually for one of the first times in my running journey under fueling, and I cannot stress how important it is to meet your calorie needs. And if you are someone who has a busy life, or you have symptoms that suggest that you might be under fueling, it's really important to, well, if you can work with a dietitian, obviously that's not feasible for everyone, but if you can, it's just so valuable. it just for your long term bone health as well, I was lucky that I avoided long term consequences for my bones, but I I've seen a lot of athletes who've actually experienced lower bone density sort of for the rest of their life because of of periods of under fueling. And I think it can't be stressed enough, but, it's something you need to be so cognizant of if you are running that you are meeting your energy requirements, Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of signs to look out for, but, you know, you won't necessarily have them all. So if you are in doubt, it's always best to be sure and check it with the dietitian if you can, because that is where the majority of bone stress injuries come from. with the tendon injuries, soft tissue injuries. I totally agree with what, Alex is saying that often it's because the load on the tenant is more than it's able to handle. I also Having sort of studied physiotherapy as well, I know that especially physios in the UK are also taking a more holistic approach to tendon issues, things like sleep and stress can also have a big effect on the 10 that people don't think fit, but actually it's been shown that there's subgroups of of tended issues where there are people who it's more about the load, but there's also people where actually it's more about their sort of systemic health, their kind of overall health, their sleep, their stress, and actually all the they could do all the loading and eccentric programs that they want to to kind of improve that tendon, but actually if they don't address the sleep, the stress, the metabolic health, their their problem won't improve. So I'm really, really interested in kind of a holistic approach to injury management. for the sort of soft tissue injuries and for bone injuries as well. I think it's important to look at all aspects. You might be doing everything right from an injury prevention perspective for through strength training mobility, but if you're working 80 hour weeks and sleeping 3 hours a night, you're probably gonna get injured anyways. So it's worth a look at the whole picture.

Cory Nagler [00:16:54]: Yeah. Absolutely. And for those who have or have not listened to our episode on sort of the the key training variables that have the biggest impact when I asked Alex on what is it you can really do to most improve your recovery. It was right away sleep. Sleep is the number one thing, and I think those recovery pieces absolutely play into injury prevention. Haley, is that kind of your thought as well, whether it's recovery on injury prevention that that's kind of that number one thing you should go to if you're if you're falling short?

Coach Hayley [00:17:25]: I mean, for myself, I probably choose getting extra sleep over getting into more mobility or some more strength. I mean, that's maybe some people might benefit a bit more from strength, but for me personally, I know that I get a bit more from the sleep. So my strength training is actually quite sort of minimal dose strength training because I found that works for me and actually just having time to do everything and getting that sleep and getting kind of 7, 8 hours plus a night is actually probably one of my most important things as well as they're getting sufficient fuel. They're probably my 2 big ones for me personally for injury. and I'll probably recommend them for for most people focus on your sleep and your nutrition.

Cory Nagler [00:18:05]: Yeah. And I think most people know for sleep how to get enough. Like, The general recommendation is 8 hours. Maybe that's a little bit less for some. And for a lot of runners, it it could be more than that, but generally, you can tell if you're tired on on this nutrition piece, oftentimes, running nutrition looks a lot different than the average population. If if you're not fortunate enough to have access to a nutritionist, are there any kind of he indicators or signs you can look for the same way you might feel fatigued to go, oh, this is related to nutrition and I should watch out for that if I'm worried about an injury?

Coach Hayley [00:18:37]: Yeah. I mean, I think coming back to that getting enough, which I think is my, like, main point on nutrition. I mean, there are relatively More process stuff. There's one of those who eat less process stuff, and you can argue for against those, but getting enough and enough calves, enough protein, enough fat. That's just the main thing, really, and avoiding relative allergy deficiency because that's that's what's gonna cause the injuries. so there's a lot of signs you can look out for for that. women are pretty lucky because we have a menstrual cycle. So if your menstrual cycle disappears, it's a female, that's like a big red flag. We're lucky that we have that that marker and it's something that I monitor and there's lots of good apps for women athletes to use these days to monitor that to make sure they're totally healthy because any changes in that can be a big bad red flag that you aren't getting enough. it just decreases in performance if you're experiencing an unexplained increasing performance. That's that's the suggestion that your nutrition might, you know, you can try and see if increasing your nutrition a bit, see if your form through energy levels come back. that would be a good place to start. but there's, you know, there's other sciences, red efficiency in sport when we're talking about not getting enough fuel, it's really, like, affects every bodily system. So if you're feeling your you know, you might have psychological symptoms. You might feel stressed, anxious. Your sleep might be disturbed, but your body's basically in sort of a survival mode. So it's it's not letting you kind of relax and sleep. you know, you may feel cold a lot because your body is kind of trying to conserve energy from keeping you warm. There's, you know, if you have a lot of DI issues, that can be linked to to relative energy deficiency. It really does affect, like, the whole body But I'd say the main thing is measure cycles if you're a female and then performance, you know, I mean, and like, in my last weeks, the equivalent would be, like, a low sex drive that can be really indicative of, like, relative energy deficiency because your hormones, your testosterone is being affected. but just the decreased performance, decreased energy levels as well is just to sign that something's up.

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Cory Nagler [00:22:28]: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And I, I know from you mentioned kind of, you know, maybe you feel fatigue, door, cold, or other things And some of these have overlap with, with the sleep and in that area as well. So I found for me that that's all the more reason to get that sleep is that you know that If you are filling those things, it's easier to to type back to a specific variable.

Coach Hayley [00:22:49]: Yeah. Sure. Cool.

Cory Nagler [00:22:51]: I'm gonna come back to the strength piece because that's also something that both of you touched on, Alex, you emphasize that a lot of runners have this tendency to to go with lighter stuff, but that the biggest benefit comes from this this lifting heavy and and building up strength to prevent injury. If you're a runner who maybe doesn't have experience with any of those heavy deadlifts or or squats or or other exercises, what's the best way to start integrating that into your training to to prevent injury without really overloading the body?

Alex Ostberg [00:23:22]: Yeah. That's a great question. let's let's take it really practical for a second. So I I would recommend that you don't start to implement any kind of strength training anywhere near a peak race. I think this should be done months in advance because the reality is that as your body adapts to the movement, you probably will be a little bit sore. If you never squat and then you start squatting, even if it's just a good body weight, you're pushing your body through a new range of motion, Right? You're stressing those, like, those hamstrings, those quadriceps muscles, everything a little bit more than usual. So I'd say a good place to start is do this in the base training phase first. and then you can always start with body weight movements to begin with. And then progress from going really light to really heavy. I think it's very helpful to have either someone film you or do this in front of a mirror. it's really important that if you're gonna be squatting your dead lifting, you're not your knees are not collapsing in and you're actually hinging from the hips and not pulling with your back at any point in time. these are things that our people would be far better to just look at some YouTube videos, which everyone has access to on proper form, and there's really good cues that you could find there. because if you're doing these movements with terrible form, and you're really loading them heavy, then that really will increase your injury risk as well, which is the exact opposite of what our desired effect is. so, yeah, I would recommend, those those compound movements, I think, are very good. I think, lunges, squats, dead lifts, are are particularly good. to start off. You also could do some some plyometrics. Haley probably knows a lot about this, but they've shown that for for bone and and tendon, well, let's just take bones, especially. they respond really well to forceful loading stimulus, or or stimuli, that occurs in, like, you know, just as few as 5 to 10 reps. So they've done really interesting studies where they've taken postmenopausal women who have really low bone density they've actually had them do an assisted pull up and then drop to the ground. And that really jarring impact is actually what causes the bones to respond the most. So I've actually what I've done myself is just incorporated 1 to 2 times per week, just some some some jumping exercises, not much, you know, maybe just like 10 to 20 reps total, but that jarring impact is really what causes the bone stimulation and growth more than anything else.

Cory Nagler [00:25:39]: I'm I'm curious on this piece because I haven't heard of these jumping exercises. I guess what is what is the benefit of this that varies from that impact you get just naturally by running and and what kind of exercises might you do to integrate that into your routine?

Alex Ostberg [00:25:53]: Yeah. this really just comes down to tissue specific properties as I understand it. so when we think of running, we think about working the cardiovascular system, and the heart and the lungs. And for the most part, muscles benefit from really long durations. you can go hours and hours and, I mean, your heart is gonna keep beating and you're gonna getting an aerobic benefit from that. there's some really interesting research that's emerging that tissues such as, like, tendons and ligaments and bones don't necessarily respond the same way in that they're really sensitive to short loading periods, but then they basically become refractory. they turn off that stimulus for growth. So after about 5 to 10 minutes, you've gotten almost all the benefits you're going to get from a bone loading perspective, and the rest of the time, you're more or less just, like, incurring more load and stress on the bones. So that stimulus for adaptation is contained to a very short period of time, And practically what that means is that if you do have a history of bone injuries, really, really long runs, especially when you become glycogen depleted, is probably not great for you. So I've I've seen some training protocols out there. If you do struggle with bone injuries, doing doubles or doing shorter runs, act could be a little bit better. And especially also incorporating some of these plow metrics, and and you wanna space them out too. So, like, typically, you wanna stress the bone for, like, 5 to 10 minutes, and then they're maximally responsive after resting for about 6 to 8 hours. So if you do two bouts throughout the day, that's when we do getting pretty technical here, and I realized that not everyone has the luxury of crafting their entire day around a running protocol. But since you asked, that's the science as I understand it.

Cory Nagler [00:27:27]: Yeah. But and is is this literally like you're jumping on the spot? Both legs are one leg or or what is what does the exercise look like?

Alex Ostberg [00:27:35]: Yeah. So you're gonna get more benefits if you vary the loading patterns more. So I actually try and do a little bit at some lateral jumps, some squat jumps, some box jumps, because the way that the bone stress and the the way that the mechanical signal is converted into a physiological signal within the bone, improves if you do varied movements. So, yeah, I think you can do something as simple as jump rope you can do 10 to 20 box jumps. and again, you want to ease your way into this. Plow metrics are fairly demanding on the body, but I think that could be a very effective way to improve bone mineral density. And of course, none of this will work if you don't have good nutritional support. So if you have good nutritional support as a bait at baseline, then you add some of this in. I think it could be very beneficial.

Cory Nagler [00:28:20]: Yeah. Absolutely. I think it all kind of, compliments the other pieces that that go along with it. So you you've got those kind of compound heavy lifts that are gonna build up strength and you you compliment that with some of those more jumping exercises as well to to build up that that muscular that muscular, I guess, resistance against injury. Am I am I understanding that right?

Alex Ostberg [00:28:40]: Yeah. Muscular resistance against injury, but also then, like, that's specifically would be targeting bone mineral density bone mineral density

Cory Nagler [00:28:46]: as well. Okay.

Alex Ostberg [00:28:47]: Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:28:47]: Cool.

Alex Ostberg [00:28:48]: And then I'll just add, like, a couple other things that on the practical steps you can take. I think that, a few things, like, really, really basic things Everybody should be keeping some type of training log, on the most basic level because if you're not tracking your symptoms and tracking how you feel, there's absolutely no way to go back in time and evaluate, oh, how did I respond when I was running fifty miles a week or thirty miles a week? And, oh, shoot, my Achilles is a little sore right now. I think I had that a year ago, but if you can't reference any notes, like, how are you gonna learn from that experience? So I think the the the process of writing down your thoughts from training and reflecting on it is extremely valuable. And I think we dismiss, we dismiss the impact that that can have on just like an overall training scheme. I also think you should have 2 pairs of quality shoes. We could get in. I think we're gonna do a whole another podcast on shoes, so I'll save that debate for later. But alternating between two pairs of shoes, they'll last longer, I think is a good idea. And then I personally have been experiencing a little bit over the past couple of years with just some treadmill running on an incline, because when I'm doing high mileage, I find that reducing the impact a little bit and getting a slightly better surface, just by running uphill for 3 to 5 miles on my second run for the day has it works your cardiovascular system even more, but takes a little bit of strain off of the, the bones and the muscles. Of course, if you have, like, an Achilles injury, I would maybe stay away from that. But if you're otherwise healthy, I think it's a good way to get some volume in without stressing the body too much in terms of a of a loading standpoint.

Cory Nagler [00:30:18]: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. And and just one more question on the strength piece before we move on from that. I know you kinda touched on the the ideal is that you really start that early in the base phase and get used to it so you can kinda build up. I know for a lot of runners right now as they're listening to this, they're probably closer to peak training. We we just had our kind of group call for the RC members on gearing up for the full season and getting to that race specific stuff. So if you've already been doing the strength work, great. You're doing the right things to prevent injury, but say you're in the ballpark of either you haven't done the strength work in the past or maybe it's kind of fallen off a little. It's it's hard to build up that mileage and that intensity while adding in DrakeWorks. So I I guess this is a question for either of you, but How do you how do you balance those

Finn Melanson [00:30:59]: 2?

Alex Ostberg [00:31:01]: Yeah. You can take this one away.

Coach Hayley [00:31:02]: Yeah. I just had a quick commentary on the thing you said before. If that's okay, I actually my stress fracture started to include doubles because of that research on on two bouts of exercise being beneficial for the phone. I think that's, like, a really great point. I mean, obviously, it depends on people's schedules whether they can fit in breaking their run into 2, but I definitely Have had good success a bit so far. Don't know if it contributed. and then the other thing was Alex's point about being really careful with plan metrics, you know, ease into it. The biggest thing I want to say about that is just really make sure you are in a good nutritional kind of baseline before you do that and make sure you're not experiencing redder. because, when I got my stress fracture, my sports doctor was pretty sure that incorporating biometrics on a sort of background of Red S because I've the only thing I've changed is introduce biometric 6 or 8 weeks before this dress character. and he was pretty sure that introducing biometrics on a background of slight red s was kind of the cause. So be careful with that if if you are agreed with them, make sure your nutrition is good and you are not experiencing wet ice because, yeah, you don't wanna get a stress fracture like that. You're you're be like, no, why? I tried to do something to prevent injuries and, yeah, so make sure you're in a good place and do it carefully, preferably if you can with, like, a coach who can help you, because techniques important for that too. yeah. So I just wanted to add those in, but in terms of balancing the strength work with what you're doing, I think I mentioned before that for me personally, and it does depend on, like, you as an individual, how much time you have, how your body responds to Strathwerk. I don't do a massive amount in the past. I have done, like, you know, quite big sessions of two times an hour per week or something, but, my body didn't respond that well to that. And I know, one thing is to consider is that athletes, elite athletes, you see a lot of male examples of big strength programs, but females, we don't have as much, but we don't have very low levels of testosterone, and our bodies might not respond as well to loads of strength work. So I have made my really kind of, you know, time effective. I just do two times 20 minutes a week, key exercises. the ones Alex said, the squats, the dead lifts, the lunges, and for me, it's it's gotta be sort of 20 minutes just a few exercises because personally in the past, it hasn't worked for me to do big strength sessions. It's actually I believe left me more prone to needles because my muscles are are not recovering from that, as well as the heavy running train loads. I, I mean, I have to caveat that with saying I do a lot of mileage. So there's not too much there's not much space for strength right there, but for those of you who think that a little bit, what's the point if I can't do much? Actually, I found really big benefits for, like, 2 short 15 to 20 minute sessions a week. and that that can bring a lot of benefit if you if you do the sort of important key exercise. Those ones that actually work every part of the body, the squats, the lung is a deadlifts, they're they're sort of key ones to do that you really get a lot of time for your buck. And, you don't have to spend masses of time. So hopefully that's kind of reassuring if you think, how am I gonna fit this in as well as my running? I sort of kind of fitted in on my hard workout days, maybe after, like, a second little job later on and, don't spend a massive amount of time doing it. And so, yeah, you don't have to spend a lot of time, and it can be really rewarding just to do a couple of short sessions a week. yeah, I think that's probably helpful in terms of balancing it with your other because there is so much to do, the training, the mobility, the strategy, can end up thinking like when do I fit it all in? I've got I've got live. I've got work. You know, I've got family. survival has found it reassuring to at least find out for me that actually spending loads of time in the gym doesn't really work for me anyway, and I can get all those benefits with a couple of short workouts, as long as I'm kind of hitting those exercises that that work the right, running specific muscles.

Cory Nagler [00:35:21]: Yeah. And I I I love that you threw in that a a little bit here and there can make a big difference, whether that's the strength work or or even with you know, you don't have to be putting in a twenty mile run to to break it up. If it suits you better to do to break up your five mile run and to do two and a half mile runs or, you know, closer to Forest K for those of us who, operate on the metric system, then then that's great. And that that does help to to reduce that stress. we we we did kinda touch a wall on kind of these high level big changes you can make to prevent injury. I guess, to kind of fill in the gaps here on the the best ways to prevent injury. Are are there any other things that renter should be thinking about really sprinkling in those kind of little 1 or 2%ers that that don't take up a lot of time, but but do reduce your risk of injury.

Coach Hayley [00:36:08]: I mean, this kind of relates back to the nutrition, but just getting within 20 minutes of your workout, some carbohydrates, some protein, just a kick start that recovery process. I found that really helpful. if you're not recovering from that workout, you're not gonna be in a good state going to the next one. So I think that's although it does relate to nutrition, which we've already touched on, it's just that extra little thing that you can do just to make sure you're starting recovery the right way.

Cory Nagler [00:36:32]: Yeah. Alex, anything else?

Alex Ostberg [00:36:35]: Yeah. I mean, I think that, the nature of the 1 to 2% is that they move the needle less than you know, moving the big rocks first. And so I think that's why we kinda talk high level. I think people just, like, generally forget about the fact that, like, nutrition and sleep have such a big impact. but, yes, just to be really practical, a few things that I do, and I'm not convinced these necessarily avoid injury, but at least I like to tell myself, I think they do. like to do a little bit of, like, soft tissue mobilization before I run. So especially before I work out, I'll hop on a I'll just jump on a foam roller and just do, like, 5 to 10 minutes of some light mobility and some foam rolling. And then I'll do some activation exercises. So, I found that a lot of Again, I don't wanna go down the biomechanics rabbit hole because I'm not an expert in that field, but I do feel like a lot of my issues in the past have stemmed from a lack of, like, good glute activation. I think a lot of that is just from the fact that we have a fairly sedentary lifestyle in the modern world. So getting up and stretching the hip flexors, going through a full range of motion of the hips, and then doing some activation exercises to turn on the glutes, and then perhaps sprinkle in some more preventative and maintenance stuff, just like some ecentrics for the Achilles, and things of that nature. I I think Haley brings up an excellent point. we can you you only have so much time of the day, and you're going to become a better runner by running more. And you wanna keep your strength training to the point where it's enhancing your training and not detracting from it. So it's like the important thing is let's keep the main thing, the main thing, which is running. and then you wanna do just enough. You want the minimally effective dose of strength training. And honestly, I'm I'm he might have figured it out pretty well here. I think, like, 30 to 60 minutes per week is probably all you need. I mean, if you wanna try and break the world record in the deadlift, that's not gonna that's not what we're trying to do here.

Cory Nagler [00:38:27]: No. No. I think that's probably not our target audience on the show if, you might be on the wrong podcast if that's your goal to break the world record in the deadlift. Yeah. Well, and I I I definitely that piece on the activation. That was really big for me personally, dealing with the IT band stuff. I think getting back to that, I often run early in the morning. So I think just really activating those hips and glutes before you before you head out makes a big difference. Yeah. so whether you're doing the right things or not, I think a lot of runners ultimately probably do face some form of injury. I guess just before you raise the red flag, assume the worst, when you're training, how do you tell the difference between those little niggles that are totally common places you're putting in high mileage and and and quite fatigue versus something that's actually an injury that you need to go get checked out and maybe take a break from running or or or focus on cross training. maybe, I wanna get both of your thoughts on this, but maybe Haley will will start with you and and Alex. I'm I'm curious from you as well.

Coach Hayley [00:39:27]: Yeah. I mean, for me, I think it is because I have a bit of kind of physio knowledge. It's a bit like I think what could it possibly be because I know kind of of what it could be and does it behave like that, but I think, unless you kind of have a physio and speed dial, you've already not gonna be to sort of use that. So, I kinda look at sort of how it's behaving. Is it getting worse throughout the run? it's getting worse throughout the run, I'm a bit more worried. If it improves as our warm up, I'm probably not gonna be too concerned, at least for the 1st kind of few days of having it. if it's getting worse and worse as I run, then it's really becoming quite painful, I'm probably gonna stop, However, if it's improving, loosening up a bit as I'm going, then it tends to be less worried. Kind of, with any new nigga I have, unless it's really painful. I'll just give it a few days to see how is it changing. Is it getting worse? Is it just staying the same, or is it improving? if it's sort of improving, then I'm like, okay, that's fine. I'm not gonna overreact initially because because, yeah, with high mileage running, with running in general, you are gonna get a lot of niggles. and they're not always related to damage. They're not always something serious. They're often just, you know, your body's trying to tell you, oh, you need to be a bit careful with you know, don't increase right now, or they might even be just because you're a bit stressed or a bit, you know, lacking on sleep. but if something's been around for more than sort of 3, 4 days, that's when I start thinking, oh, do I need to, to take some action here? but anytime you get a little niggle, it's a good chance is it nice reminder to think to yourself, am I sleeping okay? Am I, you know, focusing on my nutrition? Could I do better at the moment? Is is it a stressful time for me? If so, do I perhaps need to take my training down a notch until the live stress comes down? there were any niggles Maybe helpful if we kind of listen to it. That's not to say we have to stop immediately or reduce our training immediately, but it's always a good reminder to think is something I could do better at the moment that is within my control, whether that's just going to bed a bit earlier, it doesn't necessarily mean stop running right now, but it's always a good idea to look at what you're doing and think, well, could I be a bit better with my, you know, protein intake at the moment? But yeah, if something's getting worse, throughout 1, that's, that's a red flag for me. often something will be there for a bit, and then it might go away, might come back a bit later. Those things I don't worry about so much, but it was just there all the time getting worse and worse. I'm a bit more concerned. And then I kind of think sort of a 3 day ball. If something's been around for more than 3 days, I I start to think, do I need to look a bit closer at at one aspect of what I'm doing or do I perhaps need to see someone?

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Cory Nagler [00:43:31]: Yeah. No. I think that's good advice. And that that pretty closely my coaches. That's always the first question. Is it feel better or worse as you get through the run? So, Leslie, if you're if you're listening, you're streaming the right direction. So thank you very much. Alex, is there anything else that you look for?

Alex Ostberg [00:43:46]: I'm not sure. I could have said it much better myself. but it it is such a dilemma with runner's trace. Right? If you look at an injury retrospectively,

Finn Melanson [00:43:55]: 100%

Alex Ostberg [00:43:56]: of injuries start with pain, but If you look at things looking forward, not every time you feel pain does it lead to a catastrophic injury. So navigating that gray area in the middle is is one of the hardest skills to master, and I done this right, and I've done this wrong, probably more times wrong than I've done it right. just to kinda high level summarize what Haley was saying, because I had a lot of similar thoughts jotted down. I think trends are way more important than isolated data points. so if you just have one run where something hurts, and you sound the alarm bells. Typically, I think you're probably overreacting a little bit, but if you have 2 or 3 data points that are suggestive of a trend in a bad direction, that's something you should probably look at. I I think another thing too is that, like, a a good a good barometer for me of whether or not something is either manageable or potentially dangerous is am I actually looking forward to running that day? because I found that for my most serious injuries, I actually have started dreading the run more than enjoying it. And Maybe only a select audience can relate to that. I'm very type a, and I'm pretty stubborn with my training. And a normal person might be like, well, why would you even try running if something hurts? we're we're a different breed. I'll I'll acknowledge that. and so if I'm not even looking forward to the run, typically, like, that's a that's a red flag for me. like, okay, maybe this is something that's up. and then the last thing I'll there's 2 more points. 1, if something hurts while you're walking, it's certainly gonna hurt while you're running. I have found very few injuries that, magically improve when I start running from walking. Now There's the there's the exception of, like, maybe you have a tight planner or Achilles when you walk out of bed in the morning because you've been in mobile for 7 or 8 hours. that's a different story, but if something is, like, chronically achy, it's probably not gonna get better by forcing, like, 3 to 5 times your body weight on it. by running compared to walking. So to me, a good rule of thumb is anytime you're dealing with navigating an injury and something's hurting when walking around, you probably haven't rested enough yet. And then the last thing I'll say is and this kind of goes along with don't overreact early on, especially with soft tissue injuries. I think people have a tendency to try to like, beat, like, the ever living daylight out of the soft tissue, right, by, like, constant massage, foam rolling. I mean, I've been guilty of this myself. where I've had soft tissue injuries pop up. I have it sort of Achilles, and I start foam rolling it, like, 3 hours a day. I'm exaggerating a little bit, of course, but You're probably inflaming the tissue more that way than you are by just letting it be and going about your life and trying not to think about it too much. so how we just caution people by, like, there's a lot of recovery tools that are marketed out there, but your body has a pretty good innate capacity for healing itself. it might need a little bit of a nudge or some assistance, but don't beat things up too much.

Cory Nagler [00:46:51]: Yep. For sure. I feel a little bit cold out, Alex. I have to touch on first in terms of this, type a stubborn runner. I'm I'm feeling a little cold out here. I think you're not alone on that one.

Alex Ostberg [00:47:02]: I'm not surprised. We can all relate to that one probably.

Cory Nagler [00:47:06]: Yeah. Yep. Especially, if if you're involved in a a coaching platform like runners connect or training for a marathon with specific goals, you you probably tend to skew on the on the type a, which I think sometimes is a good thing. It helps you get in the training, but other times, like, when you're potentially dealing with an injury, it's definitely something to be aware of. Cool. So I I think we've kind of dwelled a little here on how do you navigate that grayer and tell the difference. Let's get out of that a little bit and say, going to this point where you know you have an injury often that comes with the injury blues. but we'll get into. So, like, as you get to that point, What do you do? What are the best next steps when when you've been diagnosed with an injury or you're starting to recover from 1? And then as that gets better, when when can you pick a part that point when it's actually safe to slowly get back into running. maybe, Haley, do you wanna start us on this one?

Coach Hayley [00:47:57]: Yeah. I mean, like, For me, it definitely does, depend on the injury. So, hopefully, you've been able to get to a physio and you've got a diagnosis. You know, you're dealing with that's, like, the best case because then you can really you can really make a plan. I mean, I had a great I've been lucky to work with, like, here's one of the best physios in the UK. and he has always said to me that for the only injury that you need to completely stop running for in most cases is a bone injury. he has, been quite quite useful to me in, like, helping me to kind of find ways to reduce load whilst continuing running with some other kind of nickels. so if you have that kind of diagnosis, you can at least know. Nope. I definitely can't do any running with this one, or maybe after few days to let the acute inflammation sell down, I might be able to do a little bit of running with this one while I implement the rehab program. if you know you're completely off of running for a bit, I find that the best thing I can do is to put together a really good cost training program because it helps me mentally, which makes me feel better. And, if I'm in a more relaxed state, the injury's probably gonna heal quicker. It just helps me so much mentally to have a a cost training program that I I know I'm gonna do this this day. and alongside that, like, a rehab program with the exercises that I'm gonna do to help the injury recover. I think maybe coming back that type a personality, I feel like I need a plan and once I've got a plan with an injury, I feel better. And I think that is really important. So, get a diagnosis from a physio that you hopefully trust and has been recommended to you maybe by another runner because I think sometimes if you go see a physio isn't used to run us, it can be a little less helpful. they it's really useful if they know how much running means to you and what kind of value you put on that and how important it is for you to get that running. yeah, I think just having a plan is really important for me. And hopefully that involves some cross training. Of course, there are injuries that you can't cross train with. That's kind of depends on the diagnosis, but, there usually is some kind of clustering you can do, and you definitely don't have to do that. That's like a personal preference, because I need that exercise to feel better. it really helps me just keep a routine and get the right sort of feel good chemicals that are gonna help with my recovery, but, Yeah. A cross training plan biking elliptical, aqua jogging, aqua jogging is often a possibility for even own chest injury sets. That's a really good thing to to kind of learn and something you can do in when you're not injured. I find that keeping in one form of cross training when you're not injured is useful because then when you if you are injured, you've often got something you can switch over to, and it doesn't kind of feel crazy. Yeah. So that, and then have a plan going forward. one thing I I always think with injuries, and this kinda comes from having while studying physiotherapy, having some lectures from some sort of, really experienced physios is if someone either doctor or, you know, maybe not a run doctor, just, you know, Someone tells you that you need surgery or you need injections as a treatment, and they haven't tried, PT and rehab first. It's usually a good idea to get a second opinion because you'll get a lot of doctors, you'll go, oh, you need surgery, you won't run again if you hear those kind of things. is always a good idea to get a second opinion because those things come with risks and, you know, lots of studies, surgery, or injections aren't actually any better than a good rehab program. So if you hear those words, it's always a good idea to seek second opinion for someone who does know runners, I think that's a point I'd like to make because there are so many doctors who will just go, you need surgery on this, you won't run again. That's rarely the case in my opinion. get a second opinion. Get 3rd opinion if you need to, you know, surgery is a big deal. It's not necessarily gonna fix all things. A good rehab PT program can go really don't weigh.

Cory Nagler [00:52:35]: Yeah. Alex, I see you chuckling a little. Do you have personal experience with this piece?

Alex Ostberg [00:52:41]: I I've I mean, yes. I've had, like I said, I've had 2 surgeries. I think one of them was definitely indicated and necessary. I had a fracture in a vehicular that would not have healed unless there was a screw in there. I think the evidence would support that. My other one was a sport Sernia surgery, which had tried conservative management for a while. And then there was some financial calculations that went into it, because the school I ran for was gonna cover it and anyway, we can talk about that another time. But, you know, on that note though, I mean, they've done fascinating studies where they do sham surgeries. so like ACL repairs are one of the most common surgeries done by orthopedic surgeons in the United States. They rake in money because of these things. So they obviously have an incentive to keep doing them. But they've done studies and there have been a few published in very prestigious journals. I I need to update my my memory because it's been a while since I've looked at them in particular. But, when they evaluate the 12 month outcomes from an actual surgery versus a surgery where they sedate somebody, create an incision, but don't actually do anything with the tissue and sew them back up again. Of course, there's there's ethical considerations here. People have been, you know, warned and, you know, people aren't expecting a surgery and not getting it. there's something in the fine print, I'm sure. But the outcomes are almost identical. And this is someone who is is promising that the surgery is your only outcome versus you are put under general anesthesia. Nothing was done. You are woken up and you still did PT for 12 months. And as you start to question, well, was it the surgery or was the PT or the rest? And there's a lot of confounding variables there. So, anyway, we could do a whole podcast on sham surgeries and the placebo I'm fascinated by that. I don't have much to add other than what Haley said. I just think the biggest thing is when you're when you're kind of dealing with an injury in the beginning, if you find yourself injured, is giving yourself permission to rest. And a coach one time told me, like, you know, if left to my own devices, I have a really hard time putting nothing on my training plan. Much like, Haley, I like having a plan, but there are some instances where you just need to rest and you need to do nothing. and we have a hard time doing that. But sometimes the beauty of having a coach is if they are the ones who can give you permission to rest because sometimes that's really important. So I just wanted to put that out there. you can cross train. You can do hours in the pool, but sometimes, like, rest is probably gonna get you better the fastest. I mean, I've an interesting example to share. I I have a couple of friends from college that now run, on the professional level And if they get injured, and they're at altitude camp, the first thing they'll do is send them down from altitude camp back to C level. And I found that fascinating in the beginning because I'm like, well, Why would you do that? And it actually turns out you you don't heal as fast at altitude. Right? We we tend we tend to think of injuries as, like, these isolated things. We think in silos. Right? So, like, an injury that tissue just has to heal itself. But again, going back to Haley's point, which I think is so important, it's a global process in the body. It's a systemic thing. So if you're at altitude and you have a little bit more stress on the body, tissue or a bone may not heal as fast. So they send them back to C level because you're gonna recover faster there. so again, like thinking about the inputs of your body, thinking about, if you're actually gonna get a benefit from cross training or if your body actually needs rest, these are all important calculations and a coach can help you navigate that.

Cory Nagler [00:55:51]: Yeah. And I I I noticed that Haley you commented on making sure you get a a PT opinion and maybe even a second one. And, Alex, you talked about a coach's. I think for if you're a runner who's really passionate about this sport, injuries can be an emotional thing, and it it helps to have somebody to give you that guidance is that probably fair to say one of the first things you should do is just seek guidance from a professional?

Coach Hayley [00:56:12]: Yeah. I mean, I think Interries are definitely such an emotional thing. I don't think I've ever felt as bad as, when I was offered my stress fracture, I mean, don't forget. I've been lucky to avoid injuries, you know. I now know how lucky I was, and it did hit me hard mentally. something that did help with having, a PT supporting me and helping me. so I think that is really important. I know it's not it's not possible for everyone. And I and if you can't, then, you know, it's not the end of the world. Most things will still heal with rest, or relative rest. yeah, I think that's important to say because We could talk about CMPTs, but, it's not an option for everyone because they are I mean, I don't know what things like for you guys in, like, the US and Canada, but here in the it can be quite hard to see a PT, especially ones who are really good with runners. You try and do it through our national health service. You can wait a really long time. And by then, you know, even the stress practice is probably here by the time you get to see one. So I I just, like, have to say that I was lucky that I was able to see one. And if you can't, that's not the end of the world. a coach can can probably help and give you some pointers. if you have a coach, you trust, but if not, then most things will heal with time and rest. at least rest from from running. I mean, I totally see Alice's point about the cross training is sometimes you need rest rest, you know, in the case of multiple stress fractures, when your body's clearly saying there's not enough energy here, total rest is is definitely the way to go. So that does depend on the injury. But if you can, then it's it's fantastic COPT, one that has experience with runners, and I personally try to do that first. but self management, you know, resting, switching up your training, and then, looking at the factors that affects your injury can be really, you know, beneficial to do anyway. Maybe maybe with, like, an external influence with you've got, like, a a partner that you trust, you could say to him, look. Am I doing these things right? Do you think my training was you know, a bit crazy, did it seem like I really, really increased my age there, because it can be difficult to see a PT. but you can't. It's just someone you trust to coach, just confide in someone about your injury, and they might be able to help just give you a bit of an outside perspective. because it is hard when you're just, you know, you can only you can only think what is happening to you. You can't see it from the outside. you might think you you haven't been increasing training that you've been fueling yourself just fine, but your partner might actually have been a bit worried about you, how much time you were spending running, how lift all you were fueling, how much, you know, how much you were stressing about things. So just anyone that that you trust can be helpful if you can't afford, like, specific medical help, which is obviously great and a first choice if you can, but, Yeah. Just just getting someone else to help just for the emotions for as well, you know, because it is really tough. Like, it's it's can be just so tough, especially if you you're not sure what the issue is, which was when I had my stress fracture, actually the wrong diagnosis initially and and I was actually just thinking why I can't walk, and you're telling me this is just, something minor, and that was actually is so emotionally hard for me, and I needed a lot of support from friends and family, and you can want to sort of shut yourself away and just cross train back. It does help you. I mean, I think I always want to kind of stay away from running and not talk to anyone who I know from running, and although that might seem like the best choice at the time is not necessary helpful longer term because you can feel a bit isolated with injuries if running is your your social outlet, and then that goes away. So just talking to anyone really, he like, the most helpful person you can find for your injury, whether that's a coach or PT or just a kind of trusted friend that would that would be the first step for me just, trying not to go through on my own.

Cory Nagler [01:00:37]: Yeah. For sure. And I'm sorry. You had to go through that with your injury and the misdiagnosis. I've I've been through that as well where doctors have not really understood an injury, especially don't have that running background. But as you said, it's really good to have those people. You know that you can can turn to, and that will help you. I will comment that, if you're listening to this point, you probably are quite proactive in trying to make sure that you're taking the right steps, but I think in general, a lot of runners, we tend to be pretty short sighted, and maybe, not calling myself out specifically, but if you're a little bit like me, there might be times when once you get past an injury or or maybe even if you haven't dealt with injury, it's not at the top of your mind. do you have any thoughts maybe on, on those runners on why it's so important to make sure that you're keeping this in mind in taking those steps to prevent injury? Alex, maybe, maybe you first.

Alex Ostberg [01:01:27]: Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was just laughing when you said that because, yes, we tend to be very shortsighted. People tend to make very irrational decisions around injuries. that have absolutely no logic. I think the biggest thing that's helped me is, again, like Kaley said, take this outside perspective. A good mental heuristic that I use is Let me coach myself. Like, I would coach a friend, or or let me give advice to myself. Like, I would give advice to a friend, because if you can get out of your own head, and let's say I've had this nagging shin pain for 7 days. It's getting worse and worse, and I just don't wanna miss my long run tomorrow. I would never tell a teammate of mine go do your long run. I'd be like, dude, take the day off. You know? Like, what are you doing? Like, can you not see what's right in front of you here? And, So I I found that if you don't have a, a, potentially, a, a coach or a physio or someone in your circle, trying to give yourself advice like you would give to a friend could be helpful.

Cory Nagler [01:02:20]: Yeah. Is that your approach as well, Haley?

Coach Hayley [01:02:23]: Yeah. Definitely. I actually coached myself at the moment, and I found, just pretending that I'm coaching someone else is is the best thing to do. think about it. Like, it's someone else's schedule. If someone else's trading down, that's the only way I can do it really, so I totally agree with that.

Cory Nagler [01:02:41]: Perfect. Yeah. And and Alex you said earlier, do do as I say not as I do. So I think it comes right back to that full circle. It's like, it's it's heard when you're giving yourself advice. So helpful to have those other people you can turn to.

Alex Ostberg [01:02:52]: Totally. Awesome.

Cory Nagler [01:02:54]: Well, I think this was a great discussion. I hope those listening learned a lot about the steps you can take to prevent injury. I know both of you are experts on the topic, so thank you so much for giving your insights. Haley Alex, this was a blast.

Coach Hayley [01:03:07]: Yeah. I've really enjoyed it. It's been amazing to be back on the podcast after after a little while.

Alex Ostberg [01:03:13]: Yeah. Absolutely. Pleasure, Corey. I I hope that the less get a lot of value out of this one. and again, let's this is hopefully something that you don't experience, but, it's one of those things. There's a good quote that, like, an ounce of preventative energy up front will save you a pound of medical bills later. Right? So taking some of this advice and preventing these things before they even start, that's the goal. not you you will you will make mistakes. you will cross that line, but then take that experience, reflect on it, and learn from it. you'll be better off because of it.

Cory Nagler [01:03:43]: Absolutely. If staying healthy while running is not enough, then, do it to avoid the medical bills and visit to the hospital.

Coach Hayley [01:03:50]: And because during the things prevent injury are the things you make you a better run anyway. So even if you think of someone that doesn't get injured, those are the things that are gonna make you better at running. So That always good things to do.

Cory Nagler [01:04:02]: Yeah. No. I I love that. That strength work or that nutrition piece, that's gonna pay off dividends if you're running for sure. So love that as a thought for runners. So, again, like, hopefully you all learned a lot and happy running everyone. Stay healthy and, hope these helped you to become a better runner.

Alex Ostberg [01:04:27]: Thanks for

Finn Melanson [01:04:33]: listening run to the top podcast. I'm your host, Finn Malanson. As always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. These consider connecting with me on Instagram at Wasatchfin, and the rest of our team at Runners Connect also consider supporting our show free with a rating on the Spotify and Apple podcast players. And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content behind the scenes experiences with our guests, and premiere access to contests and giveaways, and subscribe to our newsletter by going to runners connect dot net backslash podcast. till next time, I'd be training.