Overrated/Underrated – Healthy Habits for Runners

Guest [00:00:00]: It sounds exotic when you think about mindfulness, but it it's really, you know, just highly focusing your attention on the task at hand and, you know, not as you're running, thinking about, you know, some project you have due tomorrow or a deadline or, you know, what happened yesterday, and it was really bad, and oh my gosh, or, some other upsetting event. It it's just freeing your mind to just be fully involved in what you're doing.

Cory Nagler [00:00:35]: Today, we're doing an overrated, underrated episode all about healthy habits for runners. Here to help make these determinations is lifestyle medicine expert and recent New York City marathon finisher, Richard Rosenfeld. Most of you know how this works already. But basically, we'll go through a series of topics on lifestyle habits that are believed to be healthy, so that Rich can weigh in on whether they're overrated or underrated when it comes to being a healthier runner. We previously did a podcast with Rich about the optimal diet for runners. But this conversation covers a lot of ground on different topics, ranging from whether you should take a power nap during the day, whether you need animal protein with every meal, how helpful mindfulness really is for runners, and if that post run treat you've been looking forward to is a good motivator or not. Rich is a wealth of knowledge who really understands the health needs of runners. I'm so glad to have had him back on the show, so let's get into it.

Cory Nagler [00:01:35]: Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Okay, RC. I'm joined by an expert in lifestyle, health, and nutrition who has been on this show before. But, Rich Rosenfeld, it's good to have you back.

Guest [00:02:12]: Great to be back. Thank you.

Cory Nagler [00:02:14]: Awesome. So just to get us warmed up, I'd love it if you could give a quick intro of yourself and, also, how does your role relate to running?

Guest [00:02:24]: Yeah. So, I'm a, physician, been in practice, over 30 years in Brooklyn at the Downstate Medical Center, Ear, Nose, and Throat, but my real passion is lifestyle medicine, which I've been involved with for about 8 years and board certified. And about, 10 years ago, decided to make a life change and lost some weight, started working out, and for the first time, started running. And then by age 60, did my first marathon. I'm now 66, so I've done 11 including New York less than a week ago. And, I have had a Boston qualifying time and, really love it. So, big change in life and combining my healthy habits, especially nutrition with running has really been a, boom in in, I think, my performance and my resilience, especially as a master's runner.

Cory Nagler [00:03:23]: Well, first off, congrats on the New York marathon. That's incredible.

Guest [00:03:28]: Thank you. And, I actually was, 18% in my age group. It was a 4 13, so, didn't quite get me, a Boston time, but I did better than 82% of the other old folks in my group. So I was pretty happy with that.

Cory Nagler [00:03:45]: I would say not too bad. And I'd love to know, when you're practicing in medicine, when do you find the time to train?

Guest [00:03:53]: Well, I've I've been at my current position well over 30 years. So, clinically, you know, 2, 3 days a week. So I do have some time, but I basically get up at 3 AM on the days that I I do go in. And, by the time it's 6 o'clock, I've already done my run, my my weights, my working out, and I'm ready to go. So, you know, it becomes a habit. And even on the weekends, I find myself getting up at 4 or 5 for the long run. So, I do it at the start of the day, get it done, and, you know, it works.

Cory Nagler [00:04:32]: And I think for a lot of our listeners, they probably have to get an early runs as well to to make sure they fit it in before work. But 3 AM is definitely on the early side. So curious as a lifestyle expert, is it actually healthy to get up at 3 AM, or is this more a passion project to run a quick marathon time?

Guest [00:04:48]: Well, it it it sort of depends, on when you go to bed. So I'm I'm usually going to bed on those days by 8 or 8:30. So it's it's fine. And if I'm not wrong, I believe your head coach, Mike Hammond, has taken to getting up extremely early something I think he claims he picked up from me at our runner's retreat, a year or 2 ago. So, seems to be catching on.

Cory Nagler [00:05:14]: Alright. So I guess as long as he's going to bed early, that's a healthy habit he picked up from you.

Guest [00:05:18]: Yep. As long as you get the adequate sleep time, you're alright.

Cory Nagler [00:05:22]: That's awesome. Well, we'll be talking about a lot of healthy habits today, but in a new form, which I believe you've heard of, which is our underrated, overrated.

Guest [00:05:31]: Yes. Absolutely. Very, very engaging, exciting form. I'm honored to be part of it. Thank you.

Cory Nagler [00:05:37]: Awesome. Well, I'm happy to he have you here with us. And as usual, we're gonna go through our normal format where we're gonna break it down into categories and get your thoughts on whether each one is overrated or underrated. I'm gonna start first with some questions on sleep. And I think it's great that you started off with the 3 AM wake ups, because we're already on the topic. But the first question I'm gonna ask you, is it overrated or underrated to try to make up for a night of poor sleep by sleeping more the next night?

Guest [00:06:07]: That is absolutely overrated. And the analogy I like is to think of a stovetop, with a hot burner and then put a bowl of ice next to it. Stick one hand in the ice, the other hand on the hot burner and say, gee, on average, I feel pretty good. It just doesn't work. There's something called social jet lag, which is how your average sleep time on weekdays or workdays varies from rest days. And if that's more than an hour or 2, it's very bad for your health. It leads to increased mortality, more stress, cardiovascular problems. So really, sleep regularity is key here.

Guest [00:06:55]: And if you're gonna vary when you go to bed, wake up, if you keep it within an hour or 2, you're usually okay. But, you know, trying to just pick all this up on the weekend doesn't work. And last thing I'd say, Corey, is about the duration. So, if you're sleeping less than 6 hours or 6 or under on average, you're putting yourself at increased risk for heart problems, strokes, dementia, Alzheimer's, all sorts of nasty things. And what's interesting is if you sleep too much, if you're in bed 9 hours or more, you also have increased risk of heart disease and strokes and, high blood pressure. So you gotta find that sweet spot, but you can't make it up.

Cory Nagler [00:07:39]: Yeah. I I think, obviously, definitely getting enough sleep is important. But it's it's interesting you draw the line at about 6 hours because I know often it sounds like the recommendation you draw the line at about 6 hours because I know often it sounds like the recommendation is 8.

Guest [00:07:47]: Is 6 to 7 enough hours if you

Cory Nagler [00:07:48]: have a hard time getting enough? Yes. And this is based on lots and lots of research studies. Very robust.

Guest [00:07:53]: So 6 to 8 is the sweet spot. You you get below 6, you're in trouble. You go above 9 or so, it's not good. It's a u shaped curve. So, yeah, 6, 7. I think ideally 7. I certainly strive for 6a half, 7, 7a half. But if you're in that window, you're fine.

Cory Nagler [00:08:17]: Awesome. Cool. Well, I'll go to another topic related to trying to catch up on sleep. But what about power naps? Are those underrated or overrated?

Guest [00:08:25]: Probably underrated. I I power naps are great. They really increase your productivity, your attention, your ability to learn to handle stress. And, you know, the key is doing it right. So, you know, a 20 minute power nap is ideal. You're gonna wake up alert and energetic, but you're not gonna be sluggish. You don't really get into the REM or deeper sleep. You know, once you start getting to 30 or 60 minutes, you're gonna be pretty groggy.

Guest [00:08:53]: And if you if you get to 90 minutes, that's a full sleep cycle. You know, best to do in the mid afternoon. And and there's some evidence that if you're really good at this, if you fall asleep quickly, and you take a 100 milligrams of caffeine right before the nap, you'll wake up supercharged. Problem is if you take that caffeine and take it half hour, an hour to fall asleep, you might be a little buzzed. But, power naps are great. Can't say enough about them.

Cory Nagler [00:09:22]: I've heard this caffeine tip before, but say you take a long time to sip coffee, would you recommend, like, a caffeine pill? Or how do you do that right?

Guest [00:09:29]: Yeah. I guess, if you're gonna spend a a half hour sipping the coffee, then you're better off with a caffeine pill or, you know, some of these supplements. Some of the amino acid supplements have caffeine and some of the, caffeine and some of the, you know, the running gels, bars, and things have caffeine. But, yeah, you want that caffeine pretty quickly. You don't wanna wait till it kicks in or you could have trouble falling asleep.

Cory Nagler [00:09:53]: Yeah. We we do have a partnership with a brand Caffeine Bullet that makes these great chews. But typically, when I'm taking them, it's, you know, early morning before hard workout, not before taking a nap. Mhmm. In terms of that duration, you mentioned 20 to 30 minutes. How do I time that when I'm setting my alarm? Because as you said, it does take time to fall asleep. So say you set that 20 minutes down the road. If it takes me 15 minutes, that might only be a 5 minutes of actual sleep time.

Guest [00:10:20]: Yeah. That's that. You just gotta judge yourself. I I don't think I I'd stick more to the 20 minute range. And, you know, if it takes a few minutes to fall asleep, fine. If it routinely takes you 5 or 10 minutes, then set the alarm for 30, and you should be fine. But it's, probably more an art than a science. The goal should be in that 15, 20 minute range.

Cory Nagler [00:10:42]: Yep. Okay. And if you do have trouble falling asleep, what are your thoughts on supplements like magnesium or melatonin?

Guest [00:10:51]: Yeah. I know they're they're popular. Magnesium is probably the easier one to to deal with. I mean, the theory is that it regulates certain transmitters in your brain, particularly GABA, g a a excuse me, g a b a, which is something that calms the nervous system and helps you sleep. However, unless you're really deficient in magnesium, taking extra isn't going to help. It may be of some benefit as you get older, when you have more stress levels, but very dubious. So if you're interested in magnesium, I would get a blood test to see if you're really deficient. You know, foods that have magnesium are the typical healthy foods.

Guest [00:11:37]: So fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, avocados, whole grains, lentils, legumes. But not a good thing to take magnesium. I wouldn't recommend it again unless you're deficient. You know, melatonin is often promoted as a real, quote, natural sleep remedy, for runners and others. Melatonin is produced in your brain in this little p shaped structure called the pineal gland, and it does help you regulate your sleep cycles. It's good if your circadian rhythms are off. So if your natural body clock is off, say to travel, you've crossed a bunch of time zones, or you have really messed up sleep wake cycles, then melatonin can help. But it's not gonna help you stay asleep.

Guest [00:12:30]: It's not a cure for insomnia. It's really a sleep cycle aid. Now there are some people that have shift work disorder. They're working between, say, 7 PM or 5 AM, and they got all sorts of weird hours. They're all messed up. So melatonin could help. But just in general for the everyday runner, no. It's not a good idea and has some side effects.

Guest [00:12:52]: You know, melatonin can can leave you drowsy and headaches and vivid dreams, even hallucinations. And it's not FDA regulated. It's a dietary supplement, not a sleep aid. So lot of variability within what's out there. I'd be I'd be cautious with, melatonin for runners.

Cory Nagler [00:13:11]: Yeah. It's good to get your insights on it. Because I think the one time that I have taken it, it is for travel. I find when you're crossing borders, especially for races, and you only have so much time to get over the jet lag, it is helpful.

Guest [00:13:22]: Agree. Mhmm.

Cory Nagler [00:13:23]: Yep. Okay. Let's, let's move on to some diet based questions. In the first one I'm gonna ask is whether it's overrated or underrated to prioritize getting animal protein with every meal.

Guest [00:13:35]: That is way overrated. And if you don't believe me, just go watch, Game Changers on Netflix, which is all about athletes and their protein. You know, there's this myth that that plant protein is deficient in amino acids, and and you really need to mix things together, rice and beans. It's nonsense. Plant foods, every plant food has a complete protein. You have all 20 amino acids, including the 9 essential amino acids in every plant food. You know, it's accurate to say that the distribution of some

Guest [00:14:12]: of these amino acids is less optimal on plant foods than some animal foods, but you're not missing any amino acids. And as long as you eat a spectrum of plant, sources of protein, which would be different legumes, you know, nuts, seeds, beans, you're gonna be fine. Even whole grains, like whole wheat pasta has a lot of protein in it, so mushrooms, potatoes. So a good source of plant protein is equal to animal protein, strength, body composition, performance. And plant proteins may even be superior as far as your resilience and recovery from injury because they're much less inflammatory than animal protein.

Cory Nagler [00:15:01]: So first off, I will say that I am a huge proponent of trying to eat vegetarian and vegan meals and fitting them in. But just to play devil's advocate, I've heard a lot about bioavailability and the body being able to absorb animal protein better. So what would your response be to that?

Guest [00:15:17]: Well, that's, that's an overrated statement. And, there are these so called digestibility indices that are based on, excretion in the fecal tissue in in your your poop, basically. They study how these things are processed. Then you're absolutely right. If you look at it strictly on a processing level, some plant proteins are not absorbed and digested as well as animal proteins. The relevance of these indices, which were really designed for, you know, animal agriculture to to humans is debatable. And if you're really paranoid, you just up your protein by 10% if you're eating all plants. But, that statement that you just can't digest it well, it's not gonna work is nonsense.

Guest [00:16:07]: And all you have to do is ask a bunch of these elite athlete athletes who just eat plants. So, you know, of relevance to our community, Ultra Runner. You know, Scott Juric is is purely, a plant based. You have, Fiona Oakes, who's a marathon runner, done over a 100 marathons in every continent. Triathlon stars like Lisa Gorthorn or even Olympic sprinters, Morgan Mitchell. I mean, I could go on and on. Rich Roll, Venus Williams, you know, Novak, you know, Kacovich, the, tennis player, Alex Morgan soccer. I mean, you could go on and on.

Guest [00:16:46]: Strongmen, they're endless. So you can do just fine. I happen to be a whole food plant based, vegan just, for, full disclosure here. And I've been that way for, 10 years and and have absolutely no trouble getting my protein and doing well.

Cory Nagler [00:17:05]: Yeah. So let's maybe broaden up the question. So if you had to take a stance on a high protein diet in general or just getting protein with every meal? What would your stance be on that?

Guest [00:17:18]: That's way well well, the high protein aspect is overrated, but getting protein with every meal is not necessarily overrated. So let me explain. You know, the the recommended daily allowance is 0.8 grams per kilogram per day. You know, so if you weigh a £150, that's not a lot. That's only about 40 grams. And that's based on couch potatoes. So if you're sitting still all day, that's great. If you're reasonably active, you want 1.2 grams per kilogram or a little over half a gram per pound.

Guest [00:17:56]: So if you're £150, maybe about 80, 85 grams per day. The max I'd recommend is 1.6 grams per kilogram or about 3 quarters of a gram per pound, maybe a 110 grams for a £150 per person. Above that, there's no benefit. And you can actually have downs down, you know, significant issues because protein stimulates an enzyme called mTOR, mammalian target of rapamycin, which is a protein kinase that regulates your protein synthesis in your muscle, but it also, activates cancer cells. So there's some evidence that if you're just loading yourself up all day with tons of protein, especially animal protein, you can set yourself up for more cancer later in life, so be careful. Now you mentioned about every meal. So equally important to the amount of protein is how you get it throughout the day. So if you're just nibbling throughout the day on a couple grams here and there, your liver is gonna chew it all up.

Guest [00:19:03]: Your liver loves protein. And if you're just nibbling, it'll all go to your liver. If you want it to go to your muscles, you want it in about 20 to 25 grams at a time. So at your meals, you wanna have a good 20, 25, 30 grams of protein, and that's enough to direct it to your muscles for muscle protein synthesis. So, you know, spread it out during the day, but but, yeah, get a good amount, 2, 3, 4 times a day. Don't just nibble it all throughout the day.

Cory Nagler [00:19:34]: So what you're telling me is I can't just have a whole chicken at dinner and then call it quits with protein the rest of the day?

Guest [00:19:40]: Probably not the best way. You can. You can do what you'd like, but I would, I think you wanna spread it out a little more. And, you know, they say in terms of healthy eating, you wanna eat breakfast like a king, you know, lunch like a prince, and dinner like a pauper. So, probably concentrated a bit earlier in the day, but make sure that that dinner meal also has a good 20 grams as well.

Cory Nagler [00:20:04]: Alright. I'm gonna take a slight detour here. But just playing off what you just said in terms of getting most of your calories early in the day. I've heard this saying before, but I find as somebody who runs in the morning myself, it can be quite difficult. Because typically, if you don't have enough time to get in a full breakfast before, I find I need those calories in the evening to carry over a little. So do you do you eat smaller meals, or or do you eat a large breakfast before? How do you manage your eating schedule through the day?

Guest [00:20:33]: So, I I think you're getting towards that fasted running concept, which is, definitely overrated. And I can say from personal experience, I did fasted running for a number of years, and all I kept doing was injuring myself to the point that my Achilles went, and it took about a year to recover. So, you're much more prone to injury if you fasted or not eating much before you get out on a significant run. But as you said, you just don't have a lot of time to digest it. So what can you do? If you're going out right away, what I like to do in that situation is essential amino acids. So you can get, products with amino acids, essential aminos, and caffeine, and that's in your bloodstream in 10, 15 minutes. It's a good boost. It's been shown to help with muscle soreness, muscle protein synthesis.

Guest [00:21:27]: So I'll do that if I have to go out quickly or I'm working out quickly. If you got 20, 30, 40 minutes, you can eat some carbohydrates. Any of the gels or even something like dates or figs or any type of, you know, quick, sugary concentrated food. If you've got 2 hours or longer, you can eat a meal. But you you generally don't wanna just go out there with everything on empty. It's it's it's a it's a recipe for injury.

Cory Nagler [00:21:59]: Yeah. You're you're beating me to the punch a little because I was gonna ask about fasted states. But typically when I run, I am having something before I eat. It might be like some cookies or a gel or a granola bar, but it, you know, it's it's not a full meal. So I do find if I eat more the day before, it's it's a little more satiating.

Guest [00:22:16]: Yeah. The the whole loading concept and eating the day before is it's debatable. It could be more psychological than physiological. But, you know, I think it's a matter of figuring out what works for you as a runner. And, they say it takes about 10 years to really get in the groove with something and really understand your body yourself. And for me, I'm hitting about 10 years in the running, serious running now, and I find I'm still learning. But but I have, developed my routines. So I think you gotta find what works for you is the bottom line.

Guest [00:22:52]: But doing doing fasted and not eating at all is is a bad idea.

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Cory Nagler [00:25:21]: Okay. The last overrated, underrated one I'm gonna give you in the eating category is focusing on eating, I'll say, the right amount of calories. And and obviously that varies by person, but we'll we'll just say should you be focusing on calories as your your primary nutrition gauge?

Guest [00:25:39]: Absolutely overrated. I think, calories are something to consider, but they are a minor focus. What you really should be doing is eating what's called a clean anti inflammatory diet. So really focusing as much as you can on a plan forward, plan predominant diet, that has the good stuff. The whole grains, the nuts, the seeds, the fresh vegetables and fruits, lots of, good, legumes and beans. If you like meat, fine. You know, eat your meat. You like chicken, you like some fast foods and pizza, fine.

Guest [00:26:24]: But don't leave out the good stuff. Make sure you get those good whole foods in there as well, because the typical standard American diet, which is high in calories and ultra processed foods, is very pro inflammatory. And that's gonna make it hard to recover from things as a runner. Even just after a typical marathon, you'll need those, you know, 3 weeks to recover. I ran my marathon on Sunday. And by Wednesday, I was 90% better, able to do pretty much full workouts by Thursday, Friday, which is 4 or 5 days. And I'm no youngster. You know, at age 66, you could say I need more time to recover, but I think eating a healthy pro and anti inflammatory diet is helpful.

Guest [00:27:11]: And the other thing is if you're eating healthy foods, whole foods, you can generally eat as much as you want and not worry about calories. The calories are a problem with ultra processed foods, things that you need a a chemistry degree to figure out with it what's in there. Typical pizzas, soups, frozen foods, fast foods, those are very calorie dense. So if you're eating a lot of that, you do have to have some some consideration of calories unless you wanna get obese. If you're eating healthy, I think it's a much less of a, of a concern.

Cory Nagler [00:27:46]: Yeah. And I'm gonna assume that we're talking about balance here and not completely throwing these out the window. So I I I'd love to know after running the New Year marathon, what's your celebration meal?

Guest [00:27:57]: Well, I met the family and, I hobbled over to a place called the Les Baux Niese, which is a vegan, restaurant. I did have some vegan desserts that that had some sugar in them, which I don't usually have. I I typically stay away from the SOS and food, salt salt, oil, sugar. But all my kids are vegans as well. My wife is flexitarian. So, you know, what what I like to celebrate after long runs on weekends is I like to go out for Indian food. I love, basically, South Indian food. So, but I

Guest [00:28:32]: don't I I don't really view eating junk food as a celebration. You know? I I just like eating more of the foods that I enjoy.

Cory Nagler [00:28:42]: Yep. That does sound tasty, though I don't know if my stomach could tolerate an Indian curry right after a marathon. Okay. I think I'm gonna wrap up the food category, and let's go on to mental health. And let's start with keeping a training log or diary. And for the purposes of this question, I'm gonna say a physical written training log or diary.

Guest [00:29:08]: I'd say either underrated or overrated depending on your personality. It's similar to me to budgeting financially. Some people, if they don't budget, they're gonna go broke and have big problems. Others, they just sort of auto regulate, and and they don't even need a budget. Especially, I think if you're a a new runner, logs could be great. A great way to look at at what you're doing and plan for the future. You know, at a minimum, you're gonna put in there your distance, your time, your pace, maybe some comments about how you felt during a run, and you can, you know, track your progress, understand what leads to injury, how to avoid injury. And, certainly, for elite runners and, you know, people working with coaches, you're gonna keep a, a a log.

Guest [00:29:58]: Personally, unless I'm really training with a coach or or or, you know, following a program, I don't keep a log. I just sort of mentally track what happens. But, you know, I think for overall, it's probably underrated and a good idea, especially for for novice runners or people looking to really grow and learn, from from what they're doing.

Cory Nagler [00:30:21]: Well, if you're looking for some coaches to take your running to the next level, we know a few.

Guest [00:30:26]: Well, I I did work with, Mike Hammond, prior to, Philly marathon last year. And, I had my, Boston qualifying time after that. So, I'll give all the credit to Mike, but it was, a good experience. So, yeah, coaches are great. And, I think you also have an app that that you use where you you put in your your your miles and your comments, and it allows you to train and share it with others. So it's, it's a very useful thing.

Cory Nagler [00:30:58]: Yeah. The Earthsea app is definitely great. Are you gonna be running at Boston next year if you ran a qualifying time?

Guest [00:31:05]: I wish I was, but I qualified by 4 minutes. And they stretched it by 6 minutes and 50 seconds this year because they had over 35,000 qualifiers. So my 4 minute margin didn't make it. And, as I was running New York, I was thinking, boy, should I should I try and push to get maybe a little below 4 in this one? And for about 16, 17 miles, I was doing it. And then I just said, you know, I'm starting to feel a little fatigued here. It's not worth it. So, you know, slid back a little and ended with 413, which was fine, but but not a b q time. I did run Boston for charity, so I don't feel too deprived.

Cory Nagler [00:31:47]: So you you've got your jacket then.

Guest [00:31:50]: Yeah. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:31:52]: It all counts.

Guest [00:31:54]: Absolutely. Okay.

Cory Nagler [00:31:56]: Let's let's go to the next one. And this one's one of my favorites, so maybe weighing in here a little bit with my answer. But what do you think about practicing mental toughness in training?

Guest [00:32:07]: I think that's underrated. Most people, I think, equate just super training and hard work and working out, you know, build those muscles, muscles, build the endurance that that's the key to running. But, you know, I think it's it's clearly as much, you know, between the ears as it is between the the thighs. A lot of running is mental. You know, your brain ultimately is what's gonna control, your ability to exercise and perform. And when it comes down to it, mental fatigue can hurt you more than physical fatigue. So, if you don't build that toughness and and and toughness, is essentially the ability to just deal with a difficult situation, fatigue using, you know, different coping mechanisms that we can discuss. But people should not confuse toughness with just pushing yourself through injuries and niggles and other things that if you do that, you're just going to hurt yourself.

Guest [00:33:11]: That's, that's not too too smart. It's a matter of common sense toughness, not foolish toughness that's gonna lead to injuries.

Cory Nagler [00:33:20]: Yeah. And we actually did a an entire podcast on building mental toughness that our our listeners can reference, and I'll put that in the show notes because I think it's a good resource. So I don't wanna get too much into it, but I'd be curious what you did in your own training for New York to build mental toughness.

Guest [00:33:36]: Well, I for me, the key it it begins with your attitude. And, you know, I like to think about a positive mental attitude as three simple things. You're content with the past, you're happy in the present, and you're hopeful for the future. So, you know, the contentment with the past is really recognizing and celebrating your training. You know, being in the present is more in the mindfulness category, the the sort of western concept of mindfulness where you're acutely focused on what's going on around you and engaged, in control, you know, noticing your body, your feedback, your surroundings, you know, the crowds, the scents, the smells, the sights. And, you know, being reasonably hopeful and optimistic about the the future. I love mantras. So I'm a big mantra person.

Guest [00:34:35]: I've probably got dozens of different mantras I I go through, and I typically sync my breathing, to the mantras. So I'll I'll typically work, on a, you know, 4 breath in, 4 breath out mantras and schedule in the easier parts of the run. Then I'll escalate it to maybe 3 breaths in and out on the faster parts. And I do these on long runs and everyday runs if I'm on the tread, if I'm out there. And you get pretty good at it after a a point. I think it's also, you know, strategizing. So I love the 10, 10, 10 concept for marathons. You know, the first first 10 miles you sort of run, you know, with your brain.

Guest [00:35:24]: The second, 10, you run with your legs. And the last 10 k, you sort of run with your heart and just go out as much as you can. Someday, I'll actually do a negative split. It seems a bit elusive to me, but, the bottom line is to practice. You you know, the more it's like anything else. The more you do it, the better you get at it. But, and the last thing I I would say, Corey, is about flow. I'm a big flow fan.

Guest [00:35:53]: You know, Mikhail, she sent me up who who wrote a lot about flow, you know, which is different than runner's high. You know, flow is really blending with your surroundings. You know, highly focusing your attention, you know, just blending your actions, your awareness, your control of everything, not being self conscious, you know, just sort of being who you are and just floating along. It almost dilates time, has it flow by, and, you know, you're just running for the joy of running, not for some other other external construct. So, I realized I rambled a bit there, but that's those are the things that I like to do.

Cory Nagler [00:36:37]: Yeah. We started with mental toughness, but now I'm just really craving going out for a run.

Guest [00:36:45]: Yeah. And I yeah. It's it's also it's about training your brain. You you know, you can train your brain to deal with fatigue. It is mental. And, you can do fartlek type things where you just focus on getting from one thing to another. You know, a goalpost or a signpost or finishing the block or getting to a store or a crack in the sidewalk. Just, you know, anecdotally, as I was doing the New York marathon, which for people who have done it, you know, it's a it's a bit tough.

Guest [00:37:17]: You you go up that Verrazano Bridge and the Queensborough Bridge, and you have that mile uphill on on Fifth Avenue at the end between a 100 10th and ninetieth Street before you hit the park. So it's a tough race. And I had started that race with the concept that I would walk a bit, every mile, maybe 30, 40 seconds. And as I got into the race after about 16, 17, 18 miles, I say, I'm starting to feel this. And I I purposefully, added an extra walk break in the miles. And by the time I was at the end, I was walking 2 or 3 times per mile. And it it it it builds your mental toughness because it is such a great break once you do that walk. It just clears the mind, resets everything, and then you go again.

Guest [00:38:09]: So, lots of different ways.

Cory Nagler [00:38:13]: Yeah. And this is a very related piece to mental toughness. But what about mindfulness? Is this one which is overrated or underrated?

Guest [00:38:23]: It's probably underrated. You know, mindfulness, can be in the western sense of really just paying acute attention to what's going on around you. The the eastern concept of mindfulness is more like meditation. So I I think in terms of the western view, really just being engaged in the moment is invaluable. You know? It's it's really just noticing what's around you, the sights, the smells. If you're running a race, the crowds. You know, you can draw tremendous energy out of the crowds during a race and have so much fun interacting with them. You know, New York, they had, this year, I think, 55,600 runners and over 2,000,000 spectators.

Guest [00:39:17]: I mean, it's just a 26.2 mile, you know, outdoor party. So you can have fun. So, you know, you you just wanna be fully engaged, not distracted. Sometimes that can mean turning off the music and the podcast, you know, everything except Run to the Top, of course.

Cory Nagler [00:39:34]: Of course.

Guest [00:39:35]: You know, those other, less worthy podcasts. But, you know, mindful in the moment. And your mantras can focus on mindfulness too. One of the mantras I like to use is tall, relaxed, efficient, quiet. So I'm constantly running tall, relaxed, efficient, quiet. You know, you're in the moment, etcetera. So I think mindfulness is great. And it's not that tough, but you do need to practice it.

Guest [00:40:03]: You don't just get out there and do it. You you practice on your your short runs, your long runs. You develop your mantras. You you you notice what's going on around you. You practice it during races too. It it's a great thing. Underrated.

Cory Nagler [00:40:18]: And is that how you would summarize practicing mindfulness on your run is noticing what's going on around you?

Guest [00:40:24]: In the simplest terms, I think it is. I mean, it sounds exotic when you think about mindfulness, but it it's really, you know, just highly focusing your attention on the task at hand. And, you know, not as you're running, thinking about, you know, some project you have due tomorrow or a deadline or, you know, what happened yesterday, and it was really bad, and oh my gosh, or, some other upsetting event. It it's just freeing your mind to just be fully involved in what you're doing. And that that's easier for some than others. Some people are easily distracted. You know, clearly means, turning off

Guest [00:41:08]: your your, notifications on your cell phone. You don't wanna be cheap every time there's a text or a message. You just gotta go with it. So, I think it's pretty straightforward. It it's not a difficult thing in concept. It's difficult in practice, but the more you do it, I think the the better you get at it. I think the way you know you're doing it well is all of a sudden you're running.

Guest [00:41:33]: You say, how did I get here? You know, you're like, it's

Guest [00:41:36]: like 2 miles went by. Or you're timing yourself, you're watching, like, that really just throwing mileage. Is that quick? You know, that that's how you know you're doing it right.

Cory Nagler [00:41:47]: Cool. Well, I'm definitely gonna start trying to pay more attention on my runs. I think the more you can get in that flow state you mentioned, it always feels fantastic.

Guest [00:41:55]: Yeah. I think, you know, flow is underrated, and, it's very elusive. But, you know, I would certainly recommend reading up on flow, which, there are some good books. This Mikhail, Csikszentmiyak. Don't don't ask me how to spell it. I know how to pronounce it, but you can look him up. He's sort of the father of flow. He passed away a few years ago.

Guest [00:42:19]: But there are books out specifically on flow for, runners. And, it it's, you know, pretty straightforward. It it's a few simple things, you know, be fully attentive and, highly focused on the activity. Feel your body, your actions just blending with the environment in a mindful way. Think about control, you know, controlling your breathing, controlling your thoughts, controlling, your purpose and thinking about it, the feedback you get, things like, your awareness and self consciousness. Don't worry about all the stuff going on around you. It's just you out there. You wanna be in your own little bubble as you're running.

Guest [00:43:10]: And then, you know, thinking about time and the passage of time, it just sort of flows by you. And last is this concept of, being autotelic. Autotelic means you're doing an activity just for the sake of enjoying that activity. You're not doing it for some massive goal. You're just doing it to do it. And, you know, I think thinking about running that way is a is a good way to to to get through the tough spots. You're you're doing it for the love of running and to build the love of running and very straightforward.

Cory Nagler [00:43:44]: Yeah. And I think a lot of runners, including myself, we have those big goals. You might wanna qualify for a b for a b q or or run a PR, but there's still that level of doing it just for the enjoyment at the end of the day. Mhmm. Alright. Let's move on to training. And I know you talked about maybe for mindfulness, sometimes needing to turn off that music or podcast. But just in general terms, how do you feel about listening to music or podcast during your workout?

Guest [00:44:13]: I I you know, I think it's a very personal decision. It might be a bit overrated. You you don't need it, and it can interfere with the mindfulness ends. But, you know, I think, for me, especially long runs, when you're going out on those long, you know, purposefully slow long runs, which you know, you train it for a marathon, you get up to 20, 22, 23. You could be out there for 3, 4 hours easily. I like podcast. I like lining up my podcast the night before and seeing what I'm gonna listen to. Some people enjoy music more.

Guest [00:44:51]: I'm personally not a music person. But if you're gonna do music, it can help you sometimes get through things if you sort of align the the beat of the music with what you're trying to do. It's a very personal decision. But, you know, I think as long as it's not detracting from your mindfulness too much and your ability to just be one with the environment and enjoy and notice it. If all you're doing is focusing on a podcast and music, then you're sort of not helping yourself, I think, in that way.

Cory Nagler [00:45:23]: And not to say it too many times, but listening to Run to the Top is obviously underrated. Right?

Guest [00:45:28]: That is underrated. Absolutely. I'll say the one time I find it difficult to listen to anything is when you're running, you know, some of these big races, you know Yeah. Majors and just the the sounds, the deafening sounds of the crowds are just so cool. Why would you wanna drown it out with a podcast? I mean, there's just so much interesting stuff going on around you that it seems almost, you know, counterproductive to to to bury yourself in a podcast, which you probably can't hear anyway because of all the sound intensity in the street.

Cory Nagler [00:46:02]: Yeah. If I'm listening to music or podcast, for me, it's a way to kind of tune out the world around me. And when I'm in a a major or a big race, that's the last thing I wanna do. I just wanna soak in the environment. Agreed. Yeah. 100%. Okay.

Cory Nagler [00:46:15]: This this one kinda falls in between, maybe, workout training and and also food. But how do you feel about motivating yourself to run or workout with post workout treats? So this this could be anything. This could be, you know, beer, cookies, cakes, whatever, but just the general concept.

Guest [00:46:36]: I personally would say it's overrated. I think having that as your motivation is a very weak motivation. You know, we always say that you need your why, with running. And, you know, your why can be very short term. It can be doing a specific race. It can be longer term that you're just trying to, you know, build your self image and set an example for other. It could be long term, you know, living long, being healthy. And I would say preserving your brain health is probably one of the best, benefits of of running, reducing Alzheimer's and other, you know, cognitive problems that come up later in life.

Guest [00:47:18]: But if you're running to eat a treat afterwards, bad idea. It's tough to lose weight running. You get your your weight is gonna be more dependent on your eating patterns than running. You know, people run a marathon, and they stuff themselves with tons of bagels and junk food afterwards, and they probably gain weight. Because even in that marathon, you've probably only burnt off about 22, 23 100 calories, and you could make that up in a second with ultra processed food and stuff. It's easy to do. So within reason, if, you know, you wanna use it that way again, I mentioned I like Indian food sometimes. So to me, after a long run, I can think about what breakfast I'm gonna have, or I'm gonna have Indian food for lunch, or or that, but I prefer to get the enjoyment from the activity itself.

Guest [00:48:08]: And, let me make one other distinction here. There's 2 types of pleasure psychologically. There's hedonic pleasure, and there's eudaimonic pleasure. Hedonic pleasure is something you get very quickly. So you eat something tasty. Wow. This tastes great. I feel good.

Guest [00:48:28]: You see a show. You you, listen to something really enjoyable, you watch a nice TV show, you feel, oh, wow. This is great. You know? That's very fleeting. It's not a lasting pleasure. It's a quick fix. Then there's eudaimonic pleasure, which is pleasure that you really have to work hard to get. And, honestly, as you're doing the task that gives you that pleasure, you feel lousy.

Guest [00:48:55]: So running a marathon, you don't usually feel too joyful as you're doing it. I mean, I mean, yeah, you get certain pleasure out of it, but, you know, it's tough. But afterwards, you have this lasting memory and experience, this eudaimonic pleasure that that can last for years. I think it last a lifetime depending on what you did. So, I'm more for the the the more difficult to achieve pleasure, pleasure in the activity itself. You wanna treat afterwards, and it and it helps you fine. But if that's your main motivator, I think you you need to reassess.

Cory Nagler [00:49:32]: I think I find pleasure maybe in those first 2 or 3 miles of the marathon. And then beyond that, it pretty much takes until the finish line.

Guest [00:49:39]: Yeah. But New York, Staten Island, you go uphill for miles on the bridge, so that's not pleasurable. I'm gonna contest you on that one.

Cory Nagler [00:49:46]: You you might appreciate Boston more then because you have all the downhill in the first half, and

Guest [00:49:49]: you can have

Cory Nagler [00:49:50]: to pay the price later.

Guest [00:49:51]: Yeah. First 8 miles or so, a downhill, you know, going out of Hopkinton. Yeah. Absolutely.

Cory Nagler [00:49:57]: It's it's not the course where you're gonna get your negative split. No. Alright. Let let's go to our final category, which is gonna be I'll call it on the run. Just different different lifestyle, healthy habits to practice while you're running. And and you've already kinda talked about this first one, but let's talk about taking, walking breaks whether when you're training or when you're racing.

Guest [00:50:21]: Yeah. And that is supremely underrated. And it's it's it's almost like a put out there like a bad thing. Oh my gosh. You had to walk. You know, I I I have you know, I listen to certain classes on the tread, and they'll always say, oh, yeah. You know, we're doing intervals today, so don't walk. Just, you know, cut back and jog.

Guest [00:50:44]: And if you have to walk, that's no good. You wanna get used to running. Nonsense. Walking breaks are terrific. You know, obviously, the walk, run, walk pioneered by Jeff Galloway, is an amazing thing. And and people do sub 3, you know, marathons with with walking breaks. So I I think in general, it breaks things up beautifully. So, you know, you walk for 30 seconds, 45 seconds, longer than that, the blood pool, so you don't wanna do it too long.

Guest [00:51:18]: But, you know, on long runs, every mile, I like to take a little walk break. It it just refreshes the mind. It's a different set of muscles and running, and it and it's very helpful. If you're injured, walking breaks are wonderful. I had an Achilles problem, and I had the Chicago marathon coming up, and I wasn't in good shape. I did the entire Chicago marathon with 2 minutes of running and 30 seconds of walking, repeat ad nauseam. Not granted. I finished in about 4:55.

Guest [00:51:50]: But I felt fine at the end. As opposed to if I tried to run it the whole way, I would have been miserable. So nothing shameful about walking. I would encourage people to do it intelligently and, you know, read the Galloway method or some other method to to do it. You can do it in races, but and there are calculators you can use online to figure out if you're gonna do a certain time walking and running, what pace you need to achieve your overall, goal pace. And the last thing I'd say, it's ideal on the long runs. You know, if you wanna do walk breaks on long runs, they're they're wonderful.

Cory Nagler [00:52:28]: Yeah. And I I found on that injury piece especially, it's really helpful because you can so clearly see as you go from, like, you know, 1 to 1, 1 minute on, 1 minute off, and then build up towards something closer to that 2 minutes on, 30 seconds off you were talking about it, it really does start to feel like you're getting closer to running.

Guest [00:52:46]: Absolutely. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:52:48]: Alright. What about taking a break from running entirely? And I don't mean giving it up for life, Uh-huh. But I I know people will, you know, sometimes decide I'm gonna take a month off or or even 2 months off after a training block. Are you a fan of this, or do you prefer to kinda keep the ball rolling, so to speak?

Guest [00:53:07]: I'm not sure a few months, but I I would say that taking breaks is underrated. They really can can boost your recovery and fitness and and reset the clock, you know, avoid injury and overtraining, within reason. You know, we take breaks during a typical taper in a in a half or a marathon, and, you know, psychologically, it's tough. You you get to that last week, and there's a couple of rest days, and you just think, oh my gosh. I'm falling apart. I'm never you know, how is this good for me? And after a training cycle, you know, long cycles, say 4 or 5 months, you know, taking a week or two off is not a bad idea. People will say after a longer race, like a half or a full marathon, some people recommend, a full day for each hour, each mile of the race. So, you you're getting into 3 to 4 weeks for a marathon and 1 or 2 weeks for a half.

Guest [00:54:10]: I think what you do is depends on how you feel. As I said earlier, I I felt kinda fatigued for a few days. But within 3 or 4 days, I was feeling fine. So I went out and did some, you know, significant running, and I'm almost back to I'll be back to a normal schedule in a few days, a week after my marathon because I feel okay. And I think a lot of that is is healthy anti inflammatory diet. Now if you're really fatigued, you know, you you shouldn't be pushing yourself. You should be taking, the breaks. I I think you can go easily a month or 2 at the most without really denigrating your fitness.

Guest [00:54:52]: You won't need to get back into it. And the way you get back into it is kind of a like a reverse taper. On a marathon, you're just, you know, building up. But taking a break doesn't necessarily mean sitting on the couch and watching Netflix all day. You can cross train. You know, swimming, cycling, is low impact. Even things like tennis, pickleball, whatever you wanna do. Certainly stretching and mobility work should go in there.

Guest [00:55:18]: So I wouldn't advise a break where you just sit around like a couch potato for 2 weeks, but, you know, something should be going on there. And, it's a good way to reset things. I I think it's underused, and people worry that if they take this break, they're gonna lose their fitness, which simply is not the case.

Cory Nagler [00:55:37]: No. Definitely. And I think especially if you're practicing those other activities like you talked about, whether that's more organized sports or even just, you know, walking around in cross training.

Guest [00:55:47]: Yeah. We were in the cross training concept, I think it's worth mentioning the importance of, doing resistance in weights. You really need to do that with running, focusing on your legs, your core, even your upper body. I actually do bodybuilding too. And it's always a yin and a yang trying to maintain the muscle mass while running. But you can do it, you know, with appropriate supplements and protein and, you know, intelligence. But that resistance training is key. Should be at least twice a week.

Guest [00:56:25]: And you you're not looking to build big muscles. You're you're looking to just improve your ability to run. It strengthens your joints. It builds the collateral muscles. It it helps you, especially if you're getting older, you know, masters runners above 40. Every 10 years, you lose about 10% of your muscle mass called sarcopenia. You're gonna delay that if you do some resistance work. So I'd I'd emphasize that as well.

Cory Nagler [00:56:52]: Yeah. I think those are all great notes. And that's gonna bring me to the last overrated, underrated question of the day. And before you answer this, Rich, I want you to keep in mind that coach Michael Hammond will most likely be listening to this. Oh. But overrated or underrated following a training plan from a running coach?

Guest [00:57:13]: So I I will I'm a convert on this. If you ask me 10 years ago, I'd say overrated, but I can firmly say it's underrated now. And I think even people who are very self sufficient and self motivated and you can find lots of things on the Internet, you know, training programs, books, a lot of good advice, but there's no substitute for working at least once with a coach over a training cycle. I think you just really get a different picture of how to structure the workouts, how they fit together. You know, the big thing I learned in in working with Michael was really more race specific training towards the end. You know, incorporating that race pace into your intermediate and long runs at the end and, you know, adding burst and ways to do striders and and other aspects that, you wouldn't always think of on your own. And even if you're, you know, doing something through Peloton or something else where you're working with some of the instructors, it's not the same as working with a coach. And and the nice thing about it is it's inexpensive.

Guest [00:58:28]: It can be done over the Internet. You you don't have to do it in person. So I think people should at least try it for one training cycle, you know, 16 weeks or so for a marathon, maybe 12 for a half, and then pass judgment. But, I I think it's terrific and would absolutely highly recommend it. And although not related to coaching, I would also recommend the running retreats, which having there are various places that do it, of course. You know, your group is, Runners Connect is the best. But I I did that, about a year and a half ago, the Flagstaff retreat. And that was fabulous, you know, just being around other runners and talking to people.

Guest [00:59:12]: It just gives you all a whole

Guest [00:59:14]: new perspective on things. So, you know, don't be an island and take advantage of others, you know, mentors, coaches, retreats. I think you'll not only get better, but but be happier and enjoy the sport.

Cory Nagler [00:59:28]: In my extremely biased opinion, I could not possibly agree more with you. But can you please give the disclaimer that we're not paying you to be here?

Guest [00:59:36]: Absolutely. This is, you know, no nothing to disclose here other than I just love running and, I think, you know, at Waters Connected with 1 to the Top, you guys do a great job. And for me, it's the, you know, the greatest honor to be part of this, podcast, but, you know, I get no compensation. 0. Unfortunately, don't know. Maybe after this, we should work something out, but, no, there's nothing. It's just purely for the love of the sport and for the love of, you know, good people and good things.

Cory Nagler [01:00:14]: Awesome. Well, I appreciate it, and that's really great to hear. Do do you have any upcoming goals? Any other marathons you might run after New York?

Guest [01:00:22]: Well, my my goal now is at age 66, I've I've done 11 in the past 5 years marathons. I have, Rome coming up in the spring, which I understand is fun except for the cobblestones could be tough. And, I signed up, with Team For Kids, the New York Road Runners Group for Berlin in the fall because, if I do Berlin and Tokyo, I've got the big six done. So, that's the goal. But my goal is to be, running into my seventies, marathons. Someone told me if you do 15 New York marathons, you kinda get in for life after that. So if I keep that up, by the time I'm about 80, I can accomplish that. We'll see.

Guest [01:01:09]: So, I just plan to keep going as long as I can. I think it's it's just just such a great culture, enjoyment, you know, way to just, enjoy yourself, and it builds such incredible discipline and confidence. I think that's the other part of it is is so important. It helps you in other aspects of life. The the ability to be mindful, to focus, to be consistent in your training and develop these habits carries over to so many other things in life. It's incredible.

Cory Nagler [01:01:42]: Yeah. Do you do you have a donation page for your Rome marathon that we can link in the show notes?

Guest [01:01:47]: Not for Rome, but I set it up for Berlin. So, Yeah. Rome, I'm just doing, on my own, but, I did New York this year for Team For Kids, and I gotta say, they are great. That's their big, fundraising group with NYRR, the Road Runners. And we had 25100 Team For Kids runners this year. I think they raised over 10,000,000 or something. It's an insane amount. But, I'm doing it again for Berlin, so I can certainly share that, that link at some point.

Cory Nagler [01:02:18]: Perfect. Well, if it's not too early, we can definitely pop that in the show notes. And if people wanna learn absolutely. And if people wanna learn anything more about your own running, your practice, your research, where can they learn more?

Guest [01:02:31]: Well, they can just, email me. I'm happy to respond. It's straightforward. Rich rosenfeld atmsn.com. And, you know, I have a a love for this. I I I've done some recordings, some videos, things on YouTube. You can find some things I've done and other other videos recorded. But, you know, happy to just speak to anybody.

Guest [01:02:55]: Richrosenfeld@msn.com.

Cory Nagler [01:02:58]: Awesome. Well, we'll include that in the show notes as well. But, Rich, I really appreciate you coming on and, joining me for an episode of Overrated Underrated. It was great having you, and good luck with your preparations for the Rome marathon.

Guest [01:03:08]: Thank you. This has been fun and, again, a big honor. Thanks, Corey. Really appreciate it.

Cory Nagler [01:03:27]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at Corey underscore Nagler, work your Strava by searching Corey Nagler. And please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast. Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, and consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netforward/podcast. I'll see you on the next show, but until then, happy running, everyone.