Overcoming the post-race blues

Finn Melanson [00:00:10]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn Melanson, and this is the Run to the Top podcast. The podcast dedicated to making you a better runner with each and every episode. We are created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net Where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. The fall racing season is an exciting time for runners. But if you've been training hard For a race, it can be hard to regain your motivation and your excitement for the sport. In a phenomenon known as the post race blues, Runners can often find themselves feeling lost or even depressed in the days weeks after racing. In today's show, We're shedding some light on this condition that affects runners of all levels from amateurs to trained elites.

Finn Melanson [00:01:03]: Runners spend long blocks of time preparing for races, commonly 12 to 16 weeks, especially if you're training for a marathon. The buildup can create a lot of excitement that is suddenly missing afterward, so it's no wonder The post race blues cause some pretty strong emotions. You'll come away from this discussion learning all about what it is and how to cope if you or a fellow runner find yourself suffering from this condition. We'll talk about topics such as the signs and symptoms of post race blues, Strategies for managing these symptoms and rekindling your racing excitement, how to tell whether you need a break after racing and when to jump back into training, And we'll talk about how you can make the most of the period between training blocks. This discussion will be relevant to any runner working hard towards a goal. So let's get going and pass it over to our showrunner, Corey, and our own Runners Connect coach, Hayley.

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Cory Nagler [00:02:42]: Hi, RC friends and welcome to the final episode in our September racing series. We've already covered how to prepare for and then perform Form your best on race day. But what about after the race is over? This can be an overlooked topic in running. So I brought on coach Haley to chat all about the post race blues and how to manage that period that comes after you cross the finish line. Welcome back, Haley, and thanks for joining me today.

Coach Hayley [00:03:06]: Thanks for having me. It's great to be back.

Cory Nagler [00:03:09]: It is awesome to have you back, and I'm excited to talk about this because I think it's something that a lot of us have gone through, and it's Really relatable to runners.

Coach Hayley [00:03:18]: Definitely. I've gone through it probably after every big race I've done. I think most of us do in some way, even if there's kind of a spectrum and some of us are more extreme than others. And maybe we experience different symptoms of it or, cope with it differently, but I think it's kind of a universal experience amongst runners.

Cory Nagler [00:03:40]: I totally agree. And I I do wanna preface first and say we're not mental health professionals here. But I think as runners who have been doing this a long time, we have a lot of with that. And I I kinda wanna lean into that and share that with audiences. So just as a good starting place for those who are not familiar and maybe wanna learn a little bit more, What are the post race blues?

Coach Hayley [00:04:02]: Yeah. I mean, there's no, like, clinical definition. And and like I said, it's kind of different, for different people. There's it's kind of just a feeling of of maybe feeling low or a bit down after a race, maybe a bit you know, you've spent so long building up for a goal race. Most of us put quite a lot of time and energy into that goal race. A lot of excitement. A lot of energy goes into preparing for it and racing it. And then You do the race.

Coach Hayley [00:04:36]: Maybe it goes well. Maybe it doesn't. But, afterwards, I'd say most people to some degree experience, Some level of feeling down, feeling a bit lost. I mean, I'll go more into some of the symptoms that people might experience a bit. But, it's generally that feeling of of maybe not being very motivated, feeling of like, something's a bit lacking. Like, you're a bit lost and a bit, I'm sure maybe of of what to do next. And, I think for me, it kinda just feels a bit like A bit like something's missing. Like, maybe there's, like, happy hormones out there and I'm a bit like, I don't know what to do with my day.

Coach Hayley [00:05:18]: I've lost a bit of purpose. And there isn't really there isn't, like, a definite cause for everyone and there's probably, like, a lot of contributing factors. One thing is it doesn't just happen to run us. Although, obviously, that's what we're talking about here. It's kind of noticing people, like, after a job promotion or, You know, after they just work really hard for anything like maybe doing a house or some big work project, you can experience some other things after that. So, it's probably not unique to running. And it's it's like I said, different things Probably contribute. There's probably some element of of a lot of athletes have, like, a predisposition to maybe some, Like, mental health stuff anyway.

Coach Hayley [00:06:06]: Maybe that's meant what makes us good at running. You know, we feel kind of Running helps us with some of those things. So we're already predisposed to feeling a bit a bit low or a bit anxious. So that probably does contribute. Another another thing is it's not just about how your race goes. I've I felt it after a bad race, and then maybe those You know, that contributes as well. That feeling of, oh, I'm really disappointed in all that work and it really didn't go very well. What happened? You know? I tried Tried everything and it still went badly.

Coach Hayley [00:06:41]: Feeling really disappointed that can contribute, but, actually, you can still have those feelings after a really good race. People have had post race depression after winning Olympic medals or Breaking world records, it's it's not about it's not so much about how that race went. It's it's probably a lot of factors, but How the race went probably isn't the main one because it can happen after a great performance or it can happen after after a really terrible performance or, I've experienced it after like a DNF So you don't even have to have to finish a race. It's more about, you know, you work towards that goal that day and it's happened. And then, maybe there's some kind of stress hormones involved. You know, that really all that hard work or that stressful situation has produced Some stress hormones and that could contribute. Maybe your body's telling you that you need some time to recover and that's that's why you're feeling like this. It's your body's way of kinda conserving energy and and letting you recover.

Coach Hayley [00:07:43]: You know, you're not motivated so it's causing you to to take a break and take a step back. Yeah. Like I said, there's a lot of facts that could contribute. That loss of purpose that comes from working towards something for such a long time and then it's happened. And, you know, those feel good hormones and brain chemicals that come from working towards nothing have suddenly gone away. That sort of change in your brain, that could be what what causes those feelings as well.

Cory Nagler [00:08:12]: Yeah. And I'm glad you touched on the fact that this can Come after just about any race whether it goes well or not or or or even not racing. It's it's kinda when you have that build up to it to an event or, To erase, and then there's there's that feeling of of something missing afterwards. And I've definitely experienced it myself. I'm curious just because I have, kind of, my own theories around this, but do you have any personal thoughts on on why runners might be particularly predisposed to experiencing the post race blues?

Coach Hayley [00:08:45]: Yeah. I guess, like, running I mean, there's probably a lot a lot of things involved and I'd love to hear Your thoughts. But, I think, you know, when we are exercising, we're, like, acclimatizing our body to these certain levels of, like, endorphins. Always like like sort of an addiction. You know, we're needing those higher levels of endorphins to kind of to kinda keep our brain feeling normal. And then when we stop training for that event, they're kind of, you know, just gone. And Your brain needs time to kinda get used to that new level of of things like dopamine, like, and sort of feel good brain chemicals, you know. And also just because running itself is is a really stressful, really kind of, catabolic thing when you're when you're pushing yourself so hard in a race.

Coach Hayley [00:09:37]: Probably releases more stress hormones than, maybe other sports do. You know, you're you're really Just you out there pushing your body to its limits and that's gonna break it down and reduce, produce a lot of cortisol, which May lead to some kind of changes in your body afterwards that it needs time to recover from. And like I said about, runners, probably we are people who who maybe respond in a certain way to to the brain chemicals that we're producing and we kind of Get used to those levels quite quickly, in the same way that people might be kind of prone to addiction, I guess. And then, We kinda suffer that loss when when those chemicals kinda disappear after a race. I'd love to hear what you what you think, Corey.

Cory Nagler [00:10:29]: Yeah. I'm curious, on the the idea that you went, kind of, right to the the endorphins and and losing that. Because my personal thought was Think about the personality types of runners. And maybe I'm kind of projecting a little, based on my own habits. But I think in general, especially on the roads, runners tend to be a little bit Type a in, like, routine. And I I think when we get past your goal race and you're no longer preparing for a specific event, you kinda lose some of that routine you're used to. But Then again, maybe that's related and that part of that routine is is having that that endorphin hit or or spike when you're getting out on your regular runs.

Coach Hayley [00:11:05]: Yeah. Definitely. I think you're right. I think that that lost routine is a big carpet. And finance do tend to be quite type a and I love a bit of a routine. And I know that definitely applies to me. I think I do suffer. And I think People a lot of people do suffer from that loss of routine after a race because it kind of gives you, like, a framework for kind of, living your day and, Arranging your time and when that's gone, that's like a big change to get used to.

Coach Hayley [00:11:36]: And I think it'd be interesting to look at people's personality types and how whether that kind of affects how much this post race blues kind of Text them. I think we probably would see see some kind of telling results there. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:11:51]: Yeah. For sure. And I I think this is something felt pretty universally, but everyone experiences it differently. And I think a lot of runners may kind of have some of these emotions and maybe not kind of Label it as the post race blues because, again, as you said, like, there there's similar emotions to what you might feel for for other major changes you have in your life, whether that's Family or work or running. Well, I, I don't want us to get too down dwelling on kind of the side The post race blues. Because I think our main topic here is is really to equip people to deal with this. Because it is a part of the sport that we want to acknowledge. So, I guess, maybe both from your own experience or maybe recommendations to athletes you coach.

Cory Nagler [00:12:34]: What are some of the Tips you think for managing the the effects of the post race blues?

Coach Hayley [00:12:40]: Yeah. I was just gonna quickly say before you move on that in terms of people experiencing it, Some of the symptoms signs of symptoms can actually be physical. So you might not recognize that that's what you're experiencing because I've definitely had it after a race that, I mean, it's hard to separate from what's actually recovering from the race itself. But, you know, things like loss of appetite, changes to your sleep, and even, like, feeling Achy. I mean, again, it's kinda hard to tell what that is from the race itself, but I've definitely experienced it kind of prolonged after, The kind of expected time frame for recovery and it's actually resolved when I've kinda got back into my routine. I think We can't discount the physical symptoms that are also a part of this post race being as physical symptoms kind of appeal with with kind of clinical depression as well. It's not Too far different from that, in terms of having symptoms that aren't, kind of, just psychological or emotional. Yeah.

Coach Hayley [00:13:35]: That's why we need we need some some things to equip us to deal with it. Sure.

Cory Nagler [00:13:39]: Yeah. Good good luck telling a runner that, there's something wrong with them just because they're achy. I think, I think we're all pretty used to that.

Coach Hayley [00:13:48]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We just get used to being naked all the time. Right?

Cory Nagler [00:13:54]: Exactly. Yes. Well, especially if you're training for a big event, whether that's a marathon or a 5 k or ultra.

Coach Hayley [00:14:01]: Yeah. So so some tips, for kind of overcoming this. I think it's really important to just know that it's normal. That kind of is just helpful so you don't kind of panic and think, something really wrong with me or I don't know what this is. Like, it's really normal to feel like that, to feel kind of a bit lost and, demotivated. And maybe you experience, like, some kind of feelings of feeling down And low or wanting to kind of socially isolate, those things are quite normal and it's more the kind of timeframe When we would kind of class it as abnormal, if it kind of went on too long. But feeling those things for a few race a few weeks after a girl race is pretty normal. It's not something to panic about.

Coach Hayley [00:14:51]: It's also important to know there might not be a magic bullet to get rid of all of that and get you feeling like fantastic again right away. An an important part of it is kind of accepting that this is how you feel at the moment and You kind of need to sit with these feelings for a bit and accept that they are apart post race. And as you're trying to change them all at once, and thinking that you need to get rid of these things now can actually just add to the suffering and add to the problem. And actually, like, Reacting to them like that can actually worsen things because if you think, oh, I need to do something to get rid of these feelings now. And it causes you to, like, Rush back into training before your board is ready or immediately set a load of new goals is actually gonna be counterproductive to your recovery And so, like, you're long term running. So there is it does have to be a bit of accepting that I'm gonna feel like this for a couple of weeks. There are some things I need to help, but I'm probably not gonna Completely feel back to normal right away. It might take a few weeks.

Coach Hayley [00:15:52]: It's just gonna be a case of gradually feeling better. And, actually, it Kinda really helps to know that, pretty much most of the time, these feelings are gonna get better quite quickly, and you're gonna feel normal again quite quickly Within, like, a matter of weeks, and there's nothing unusual about you or or wrong with you for experiencing them, it's just because you don't, You know, here are people talking about it. It doesn't mean that they aren't experiencing it too. I think people are fantastic about posts Posting their race results on social media, you know, how great they feel after after performance and how happy they are with their performance. But they won't then post about how Rubbish day feel like, a few days after when they're just, like, lying on their couch not really feeling so great. So, Yeah. It's important to remember that everyone is probably experiencing this to some degree and it's normal and it will pass. I think, like, with things like that, if you do do anything like mindfulness or meditation, those things can actually be really helpful.

Coach Hayley [00:16:57]: And, like, you don't have to get, like, super into it or something. But I find something like the Headspace app is what I use for anything that, Yeah. I think that it does, like, sessions with mindfulness or or, like, short meditation sessions without getting, like, really into it can can actually be really helpful if just kind of sitting with those feelings and accepting them. And then once you do that, they can just feel a little bit better and you can deal with them in the right way rather than rushing into something or going out for When tomorrow when you should be resting or any other things that can really be counterproductive in the long term. Yeah. I mean, I think there are like even though I'm talking about accepting it and, sitting with those uncomfortable feelings, there definitely are things that you can do that can help you to feel a bit better, maybe in the short term, even if they're not going to magically make you feel back to normal. I think it does help to talk to someone and about how you're feeling. And it doesn't have to be, like, a professional.

Coach Hayley [00:18:01]: Although, I think there's, like, a pretty No pressure for seeking kind of help from a professional. I think, like, if you feel like, you would benefit from Personal health, that's, like, never anything to be ashamed of. You don't have to have a mental health, illness, to seek Help, help from a from like a a therapist or a counselor. You can think of that as just working on part of your You're running self like you would working with a nutritionist or having a sports massage. It's perfectly fine to to talk To a professional, like, you don't have to be at a certain level of feeling bad to do so. But Also, equally, if you you can't afford it or that doesn't, like, feel like something you need to do right now, it doesn't have to be a professional. You could talk to a friend, a running friend, who you trust will probably be a perfect person because they've probably been there as well. Just as long as they didn't do the same race, then they're experiencing it too or they might not be that upbeat and helpful either.

Coach Hayley [00:19:07]: But, Yeah. Like a friend or family member. Just anyone you get on with, and trust to talk to. Just talking about it can really help, As it can with a lot of mental health things, just getting it out there and so it's not just you stuck in your own head can can be really useful. Yeah. So I definitely recommend not, like, bottling it all up and talking to someone and just just because as well, just kind of Talking to to running friends or or any friends or family can be really helpful because I think there can be some element of kind of that Lack of kind of social stimulation after American as well because a lot of us train with friends or go to, like, a running group or have running friends. And then when we finished a goal race, not necessarily marathon any distance and we we're experiencing this, post race depression. We might not be going to our running group or Talking to our running friends, and that can just add to how we're feeling.

Coach Hayley [00:20:09]: So I think talking to someone's really important. And then, like, you know, I know after a race, everyone says, like, let your head down, treat yourself. You don't need to go to bed early. You don't need to eat well. And, like, you definitely should treat yourself and you definitely should relax a bit more. But, speaking as someone who's had Issues with, kind of, anxiety in the past and more, kind of, non post race depression, mental health, issues. Like, those things aren't particularly great for your mental health. If you suddenly stop eating well, you suddenly stop, Having 8, 7, 8 hours a night, even if you think you deserve it because you just went really hard for rates, You have to always accept that it's not gonna be the best thing for your mental health.

Coach Hayley [00:21:00]: So if possible, whilst also allowing yourself some treats, Try to not completely, eat rubbish and stay up or not. Try to try to eat a relatively healthy diet still. Try to still go to go to bed at relatively normal hours, and actually, you probably Get a bit better. Definitely not saying you can't treat yourself and relax a little bit. But if you if you do want to to feel better a bit quicker, Maybe try to keep up some of the stuff that is kind of the key thing is for your mental health, which is nutritious diet, getting good sleep, Seeing your friends, being out in nature as well, and, like, being active. Because just because you've done a race, you don't have to Sit on the couch all day. You can go for walks. You can, you know, do any gentle exercise like No one would ever say you have to stop doing all exercise for a week after a marathon.

Coach Hayley [00:21:59]: You can you can do so much that will help lift your mood as well that isn't running or Even practice running for some race distances, you know, what breaks you will have completely from running will depend on what race you've done And how much of a break you need physically, but, definitely, doing some form of activity can really help to lift your mood, make you feel

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Cory Nagler [00:25:18]: So I think I've I heard a lot of great suggestions there, whether that be kind of the the Headspace app or eating and sleeping well and getting exercise or talking to somebody. Just to kinda tie it in a pretty bow, is it fair to say that a lot of the things you do on a day to day basis to look after your mental health kind of are just that much more important if you're experiencing something like this?

Coach Hayley [00:25:39]: Definitely. Like, and I think that's that's how, You know, that's 1 can be one of the contributing factors is because people have finished their race and they're not, You know, preparing or training for something, they do then stop doing all the things that are generally good for their health, Which involves includes their mental health because mental health is health. And if they stop doing all those things, then they are gonna Not feel so great anyway. I think it's so easy to think I've I've done all this work for a race. I've tried so hard. I should be able to treat myself. And, of course, you should. But, to feel better, you do also need to do those things that are just basic for all of your health, mental and physical.

Cory Nagler [00:26:26]: Yeah. Yeah. A 100%. And and you touched as well on kind of it's totally okay to seek, You know, guidance from mental health professional if if you are going through this. And I think, again, I wanna acknowledge that we're not Our sales professionals. So, I guess, how do you draw that line between if you just need the the support of a of a friend or family member versus when you are merely, Kind of you're in towards that zone of benefiting from the guidance of a mental health professional.

Coach Hayley [00:26:57]: Yeah. I mean, the first thing to say with Any sort of mental health is if you're experiencing kind of any thoughts of suicide or self harm, you know, that's an emergency that kind of Call a mental health professional, you know, immediately. That goes without saying. But, thankfully, that's not the experience that most of us have. Most of us, it's more of a kind of less acute, less extreme thing that It just leaves us not feeling ourselves. Then I would say it's more about the time scale of it. You know, Expect this to take a few weeks. But if after a few weeks, you're not seeing any improvement, maybe if you even tried to go back to running, you tried to reincorporate All these things that are healthy for you and you still don't feel yourself, especially if it's affecting your quality of life and maybe your ability to function, to work, To to kind of, interact socially, to have fun with your friends or whatever, then that's when it's like, Starts to become more of a is this something more than post race depression? Perhaps you should seek help from a professional.

Coach Hayley [00:28:10]: As I mentioned, it's like I would have a pretty low threshold for suggesting someone talk to your mental health professional Anyway, if that's something they can afford and want to do because I don't think you have to be ill ill to to seek help from a mental health professional. But Definitely, if things are going on for more than a few weeks, and not improving and kind of Becoming, like, at a point where they really are brought this into you. I mean, it's so individual and it really is how it affects you and how you feel about it. But If it's something that's really, just really, like, disruptive to you and really bothers you And it's not improving after a few weeks, then I would suggest talking to someone. I mean, I think Just as well, the the kind of feelings that you're having. If you're having feelings that are kind of more suggestive of of a more sort of, Prolonged sort of clinical depression. Like, any thoughts of of that you're, like, worthless or that there's nothing to look forward to? Like, Those things really probably need, like, unpicking with a professional.

Cory Nagler [00:29:24]: Yep. That makes a lot of sense. So I guess, like, if you're hearing from one of your athletes after their Is is there any kind of specific thing you look for in what you recommend? Or what what's kind of the first thing you might say to an athlete who is experiencing some of these feelings?

Coach Hayley [00:29:40]: Yeah. I mean, I think, as I said before, if there's any any kind of, Like, urgent type thoughts. Like, they they mentioned anything about self harm or maybe even like, Like restricting feed or harming themselves or, you know, maybe they're doing other things that are kind of physically harmful Even on a sort of small level, like, because of how they're feeling, they're going and doing that 20 mile run when they should be taking the time to recover from their race, Then I might sort of suggest that they talk to someone or try and put them in touch with someone. Other than that, it's just I mean, it's quite hard to give specifics because I think you kinda get a feel for when something isn't right. And I think probably if you know your athlete and you know they've had mental health kind of struggles in the past, then you might have a lower threshold for referring them to someone because you know They are prone to this kind of thing. But I'd probably look out for for what they're saying as well if there's anything like, oh, I don't feel like I've got anything to look or to or, you know, feel like, I've really let people down or that I'm a failure. Things like that are just really, a bit worrying and would make me refer them on to someone or suggest talking to someone, especially if It's been going on for more than, like, a week or so. Those things are just quite quite worrying things to hear and they would They would make you worry and refer to your professional.

Cory Nagler [00:31:19]: Yeah. No. And you you talked about kind of that relationship, and you you know what's out of the norm. So I think whether that's For you, a coach or a friend or a family member, somebody who's trusted. I mean, there's there's benefits in itself to talking to them. But I think as you alluded to, It's nice to kinda have that person who knows you well and can tell if something's out of the ordinary to to kinda let you know. Hey, maybe you're not doing well. Because sometimes it's hard us to call ourselves out on that.

Coach Hayley [00:31:44]: Yeah. It's definitely something that's really can be really hard to see for yourself, and It is really helpful to to have that friend or that family member who can say to you, look. You're really not acting like yourself Or and you're doing things that are not conducive to kinda long term health or even long term performance. It is really good to have that that person there.

Cory Nagler [00:32:08]: Yeah. A 100%. So I think one of the things that runners inevitably turn to when they're going through something like this is is back to running. And I think if if you're like me, it's a bit of a solace or or it is very therapeutic to get out on those runs. But oftentimes, your body's also very beat up after races. I guess, the question is, we'll we'll put aside the more serious cases where you really need help from a mental health professional. But if you are, kind of, Going through some of the more mild symptoms, feeling a little bit, a little bit lost or or sad after your race. How do you know whether you need to take A break from running or or or whether you should you're kinda more ready to be hopping back into

Coach Hayley [00:32:50]: it. Yeah. I mean, I would always take a break appropriate to to The distance that I've raced. I mean, it's a little more challenging after the shorter distances because you don't necessarily need, Like a really long break, but, like, after kind of America and the 4 of us, I'll definitely be taking the week off. With kind of Maybe a couple of easy jobs, but nothing more than that. I mean, I think you have to respect the distance and the fact that you've done a big race in those situations. So, Definitely wouldn't be jumping back into running. I mean, I normally recommend to my athletes after marathon kind of a week off and then, like, really easy.

Coach Hayley [00:33:29]: And then depending on on them, maybe, like, another week really easy or, like, a week getting back into it. But, You definitely have to respect the demands of the distance that you're racing and take the break that your body needs physically, which is gonna be kind of 2, 3 weeks At least, that's kind of not training as you would normally. With the shorter distances, Yes. Physically, you might only need kind of a few days after a 5 k perhaps or ten k. But I think it's important to kind of look at the whole the training block as a whole because you're not just taking a break to recover from the race. You're also taking a break to recover from the training block. And again, in that case, it's quite an individual thing. It's about how how was their athlete's training block? Do they experience a lot of niggles, a lot of injuries? Well, we're constantly managing something all the time, Injury wise or soreness wise, if that's the case, they might need a little bit longer off to kind of let the body fully recover.

Coach Hayley [00:34:38]: How demanding was that training block to them? You know, did they do more miles, more hard workouts than they've done before? Did they get to a point in that training cycle where they were feeling quite tired, and we had to maybe even back off a little bit? How do they cope with that training block? I think they're, like, important things to consider because it is not just recovering from the race. It is a break From the training block. So that's an important factor. And then also, how did they they come off the race? Were they really sore? Were they really tired afterwards? How how hard did they push? Like, there's a lot of factors that do go into how long, They have off, I think yeah. Like I say, with a longer race, it definitely take kind of a week break And then sort of start easing back into it. In terms of easy running, I tend not to recommend or take myself more than, like, a week unless It's kind of a an injury situation or illness situation going on, or there's, like, a specific reason for it just because I think easy running is generally quite restorative anyway and have quite a low threshold for people getting back into easy running. Like, as long as they know how to run Truly easy. And they're not the kind of person that does their easy runs, like, tempo all the time.

Coach Hayley [00:36:00]: I have, like, a pretty low threshold for people getting back into, like, Sure. Easy runs and strides because I think we can can continue to recover quite well while those things are going on. And, actually, they can be quite helpful, For for feeling better mentally. And if you feel better mentally, you're actually gonna recover better physically as well. So Probably start those things back quite early on so long as the athlete doesn't have injury can prevent.

Cory Nagler [00:36:29]: Yes. I'm glad you kinda got to that with because that was gonna be my my next question as a a follow-up to that is, I There's often kind of that very physical component when you've been training for a specific race, especially the marathon where your body's very beat up. But once you get to that point, whether for you, it's A week or 2 weeks out and the body's kind of bounced back if if you're experiencing some of those mental health impacts because I think there is really a kind of Psychological tool as well that goes into a a heavy training block. Do you think it is kind of purely restorative to running? Or do you think there's benefits to taking a longer break for that reason as well?

Coach Hayley [00:37:07]: Yeah. I think, like, again, it really depends on the person. Like, can they just, you know, just run relaxed and and, like, Have running just be kind of an easy, de stressing thing because I know for me, easy running. You know, After math, I've done sort of blocks of 6 to 8 weeks of just easy running. I won't have a GPS watch on. I'll just go whatever pace I want. I'll kind of Stop and take pictures or stop and look at things. And, my pace will probably I mean, I again, I don't really have a pace on it, but I pay to probably be kind of 2, 3 minutes a mile slower than I ran in the marathon, maybe more.

Coach Hayley [00:37:45]: But, like, I know myself, I know I can take running really easy and Let it become just a, kind of, stress relieving thing. And I know that doing that is actually really good for me mentally and I actually Feel worse if I take longer off from running. But I think that's why it's so important to kind of get to know your athlete because there are definitely People who perhaps are gonna need a longer break without easy running as well because they can't leave their GPS at home and they can't, like, completely chill out and do an easy run at kinda, 3 minutes a mile slower than they run the marathon. So it's just really important to know the athlete and, know how they're going to be able to cope with that. And to be honest, how they find running. Because for me, I know that running In that way, in that kind of easy, more like an exploration, more like a getting out in nature thing is really restorative to me and actually better than a complete break. My body kind of coped really copes well with it and continues to recover. But I know I can do that, but someone who you can't leave the water home and can't relax and enjoy running and still finds that stressful and still thinking Thinking of it from a performance perspective, it might be better with a longer break where they perhaps might even do some different activities that they don't associate with performance and GPS watches and going in a certain pace.

Coach Hayley [00:39:13]: I think it's important to be able to pick out those athletes as a coach and maybe Approaching is a bit different for them. I think it depends whether they can they can treat running as kind of a relaxing, Nature experiencing kind of thing or whether running is always kind of like a performance, pace driven thing. It's just really individual. And someone like that might be better just taking a little more time off. I think one thing that I also really take into account is just how Stressful, their life is generally and how running fits into that. I know when I used to work in, Quite more of a longer hours job where I went into the office every day and running was squeezed in around that. I definitely needed More time off because running was quite stressful to fit in as well. Therefore, Wasn't so much was very hard to do as a relaxing thing because I didn't have that space in my life for it.

Coach Hayley [00:40:13]: It needed to be squeezed in. Whereas now, when I work from home and my time is a lot more flexible, actually adding in runs doesn't add to my mental stress anyway. So I have quite a low threshold for returning to running for myself. But, For someone who fits running into a busy, you know, job or family, or other commitments, I would probably advise a longer break just because of the place that running kind of takes up in their life and how it kind of adds to the stress. So it really just depends on the individual in that way as well.

Cory Nagler [00:40:55]: For sure, I think it impacts us all very differently. And For myself, I know definitely, I thought it was a lot easier to fit in those runs during COVID when I was working from home and had a little bit more flexibility versus Now I spend a little bit more time going to the office, and, you know, those all hours kinda creep up a little bit, or you have the additional commute time, which makes it harder. So At the end of the day, stress is stress whether it's running or not. So with that in mind, I'll I'll still focus on the the mental health piece. But When you're deciding when to get back into training, is it as simple as does running relieve my stress versus add to it? Or is there something else specific you look for? Is it a sign as, Okay. Myself or my athlete is is ready from a psychological standpoint to get back into their training.

Coach Hayley [00:41:43]: Yeah. I think that that the kind of stress aspect is very important because, I think Even for, you know maybe, like, even 4 to 6 weeks after a big race, I'm thinking I don't really want to be adding, like, a big load of stress. So if they're already quite time limited or stress limited from other perspectives, Whether that's job or family or whatever, then it's gonna be kind of a different approach to adding back in running because Everything kinda goes into that same stress bucket whether it's like running or life or, you know, anything really. We never wanna kind of feel that too much. And for kind of the 4 to 6 weeks After a marathon or any kind of goal raise I keep saying marathon, but that's because I'm a marathon runner

Cory Nagler [00:42:37]: and I can't get it out

Coach Hayley [00:42:38]: of my head. But, I would just wanna make sure there was a lot of space in that bucket. So, that will really be kind of the tough determining factor in Kind of reintroducing everything. But, obviously, there are gonna be some kind of other physical facts as well because Kinda wanna make sure any injury issues or any health issues are kind of fully resolved so that they're starting their next training block on their, like, You know, healthy body as well. Because, like, it's a perfect time to kind of reset, make sure any issues are dealt with, Any kind of, you know, anything that's been causing issues has really settled down. Any, like, Like fatigue issues or anything as well? Like, maybe it's a good chance to get, like, some blood work done and check there's nothing you need to do to kind of, Build a kind of stronger starting point for your next training book. It's really important to do that then. And I think it's like a really good time for that as well because that that's kind of a goal of itself.

Coach Hayley [00:43:46]: And I like to have that as a goal, Because having a goal does help with these kind of post race moves. It definitely does feel that sense of purpose again. And if you're not quite ready to make that a race or Your coach doesn't want you to make that race to shit. The goal can be to get yourself to the best starting Place health wise, strength wise, injury wise that you can, those are great goals to have anyways. So I might kind of make that the goal for like a 6 week block before getting into any kind of race specific training. And I think sometimes just having that The goal can really help an athlete anyway even if it's not a a race specific goal.

Cory Nagler [00:44:27]: Yeah. I, I do the exact same thing where I really like to use those times After a race to to focus on all the things that kinda fall on the back burner when you're in training. So for me, that's getting in a lot more of that work, it's eating a little bit more fiber because you're often trying to avoid that around the run or or doing the blood tests or or little things like that. So I'm I'm glad you're very much with the same mindset. You Yeah. Yeah. You, you talked a bit about the goal setting and and goals outside of running, being able to do that. But, Of course, as runners, we often come back to that.

Cory Nagler [00:45:00]: So I guess on that piece of kind of having goals for racing, What's your thought process on that after coming after goal race, especially if you're going through something like the post race blues? Do you think Is it healthy to kind of have something to focus on earlier? Do you like to recommend to your athletes that they maybe take a little bit more time, before they kind of, have a specific race or goal to focus

Coach Hayley [00:45:25]: on. Yeah. I personally like to suggest Taking a bit of time before coming up with the next goal, I think, like, it's amazing how much different Your thought processes and what you kind of value can kind of change in that 1 to 2 weeks after Compared to, like, a little bit later on when you were feeling a little bit better, I don't think it's a great idea to make a decision when you're still in that, like, more kind of 1 to 2 week Post race stage, I think I've definitely, in the past, made decisions then, which I'll completely first upon later. And I think it's just not a good use of time or energy to make those goals when you're still in that post race state. I think goal setting can be can definitely be helpful in making you feel a bit more about yourself again, helping you to feel better. But, Like I was saying before, those goals don't have to relate to a race. They can relate to just, you know, Like, some strength work in the gym or, like, probably rehabbing something that's been causing you an issue. You know, like, Focusing on something else rather than it being specific to your race.

Coach Hayley [00:46:42]: I just don't think that people are generally in the best mindset to Decide on the next goal 1 or 2 weeks after the race. I mean, I think it's fine to to let yourself have a little bit of a a Think about it, but I probably wouldn't make any decisions in that time. If you do need to set goals, there's so many other great goals that you can set for that time period, That you can work on that aren't, like, race driven. You can you can still work on so many things if that's something that you find helpful to your mental health. I know that I do I do find that really helpful. And I often set goals but they probably won't be my next Big race, even though I might have a little think about that. I know if you're having a little think about it, that it's often not what I think I wanna do It's definitely not the best time to be signing up for an expensive race or announcing that you're gonna do this big race next, in my opinion.

Cory Nagler [00:47:47]: Yeah. Can can you give us an example? So I understand right now you're doing a running yourself with a kind of a specific goal race on the calendar. What what are you thinking right now are your primary goals when it comes to running?

Coach Hayley [00:48:00]: Yeah. So I, have had a little kind of injury setback recently and Kind of got, like, some new goals in running that I'd like to try a bit of trial and ultra running. And it's kinda hard for me From this kind of place that I'm at to to be like to not be like, oh, I'm gonna enter this race now. This is my big goal. But I also don't think it's the best thing for me to do to enter that next big race now or, Fully decide on that at the moment. I've really, made goals for myself at the minute that I can work towards because If I was to set that big race goal right now, I think it would just lead to a bit of frustration about where I'm at, which is Kind of dealing with an injury that allows me to run, but doesn't necessarily allow me to train, especially not how I want to do. So I've set a lot of goals which, will help in, like and I'm not saying I've completely Taking a race off the table, there's probably a race in my mind but I think it will just be frustrating and be kind of Putting something in the calendar when I don't know the timeline of this kind of phase where I'm like in more of a rehab Phase, not knowing the timeline, it's kind of not that helpful to put like a big goal in there, but that Find that there's so much I can work on anyway. So, like, all this stuff that can help heal this this kind of minor injury issue that I have that I know from experience Tout.

Coach Hayley [00:49:44]: They can make up some really great goals. So like stuff around diet, like getting in enough protein, getting in enough sleep, goals in the gym to make myself really strong. And all those things are actually gonna be so helpful toward the big Kind of race goal when I do set it anyways. So it's not like I'm discounting the kind of big long term goals. All those things are gonna help with that anyway. And I find that really helpful in getting through kind of a minor injury to know that the things I'm doing to help Get through this phase, this rehab phase, will actually be really helpful for, like, the long term goals as well. But there's always, like, goals that you can set. Setting those goals really helps to keep you focused.

Coach Hayley [00:50:32]: I'm like, it's, it's really refreshing. I find to have different goals as well. Like I'm not usually in the gym much, so setting like gym goals myself Well, I know that I'm actually gonna be able to improve quite quickly because it's not something I do, is actually actually really nice. Because sometimes when I set running goals, because I've been running so long. I don't always meet them and they can be yeah. You don't always see progress that you want, When you've been doing something for kind of 20 years, but, gym stuff, I do not do regularly.

Cory Nagler [00:51:02]: So I can progress quite quickly. Yeah. No. And I I think, especially when you've been doing something for a really long time, it can be to get improvement. And even if you've only been doing it for a short amount of time, I think we as runners often you know, there's a specific Time or or pace or something you wanna hit. And, oftentimes, that's based around your personal best. But how many times are you gonna run a lifetime best? So I think it's good to have, kind of, some of those those other goals whether they're running or not that are, that that you know are are are are more process driven.

Coach Hayley [00:51:36]: Yeah. Definitely. I think even if you are in a state where you're able to set kind of big race goals, you should always have more, like, process goals as well. Like putting everything on a race outcome isn't necessarily the best idea because there are things we can't control. I think it's a lot healthier to kind of diversify your goals, so maybe have a big race goal, but you also might have a process goal, like, I want to also really improve my diet during this time, or, I'm just thinking of some Random example here, but it might even be just, whatever happens with the outcome of this race, I wanna make sure that I, Approach it correctly mentally or that I finish it strongly or that I make my nutritionist direction perfect within the race. You know? Like, There's so many other goals you can have that aren't just kind of race outcome driven. And I think it's really important to have, like, a range of goals from that

Cory Nagler [00:52:35]: perspective. Yeah. A 100%. I think this has been, a really helpful conversation because a lot of runners may not even realize that they've been experiencing this. It's it's something that's often not not labeled the post race blues, even though it is kind of a a bit of a common term in the running world. I wanna come back to something that you said as a way to to wrap this up. And and that's really that, you know, the the best time to get back into running is is when it's rejuvenating and adding to your life. So I guess maybe just to finish off, why don't you tell our listeners What does that mean for you? Or or what do you find that running adds to your life that you really look for getting back after you finish a gold race?

Coach Hayley [00:53:22]: Yeah. I mean, I think when I start back running, I I go for things that kind of brought me to running in the 1st place. And the The other things I love about running that aren't just kind of race outcomes. Like, I would run even if someone said to me, you're never gonna improve anymore or, you know, you can't race. Like, I just love kind of the being out there in nature of running. I love kind of the exploring on foot, And, like, finding new trails. So when I go back into running or when I'm having kind of a difficult time with running, I will just kind of put on a stopwatch and go out on some trails and just kind of make up a new route. Maybe try and, like, see some new things.

Coach Hayley [00:54:06]: Like, Maybe just look at a map and think, oh, there's, like, a really cool, like, stream there or, like, a forest and just kinda go exploring. And that's kind of where I'm at at the moment with my running. I mean, like, I've had, like, some frustrations with kind of face result, Niggles over the past few years. And I think, one thing that's just given me such longevity in running and the fact that I've I I've had quite a lot of, like, disappointments and setbacks but, still run and still love it. It's just that ability to To kind of take it back to actually what I love is just kind of exploring on foot, being out in nature. I would do it even if I didn't race. And I think, like, it helps me to realize that most of why I love running isn't about the race results I think it is really helpful to disconnect yourself from a watch in that kind of perspective. Like, My last kind of 2 weeks of running, I think, have been kind of just with a stopwatch.

Coach Hayley [00:55:12]: And sometimes when I have a rough idea of a route distance, not with, like, a stopwatch at all. So, it's just like a great mental break and Kind of reminds me that there are ways to take a break that don't involve not running. And I've had a lot of periods of time where I've done this. My Strava is full of gaps, for, like, a few months or weeks or whatever. I've done this over the last kind of I don't know how long I've been using Strava, like 10 years. People will message me and be like, are you okay? Are you injured? And I'll be like, no. Just on one of my Going back to what I love about running times, which do not involve Strava or GPS watches, I've had quite a lot of It's a GPS free running time but, I think it's great because there's so much more to running than just performance. So It's always nice to get back to that.

Cory Nagler [00:56:07]: A 100% running should add joy to our life. And I I think that's kind of, You know, an important time to to kind of question your relationship with running and the type of running you're doing is when you find it doesn't do that. So I I love For you, you're able to just disconnect from travel, ditch the watch, and just really enjoy the run. So that's awesome. And if, if you're listening to this today, I, I I hope you find that much enjoyment on your own runs. Haley, thank you so much for joining me today and and having this important on on how runners can kinda manage the post race blues and really find that specific enjoyment that they that they first loved, from this sport.

Coach Hayley [00:56:46]: Yeah. No problem. It's been great. Yeah. One more tip I have is that if you're if you're a dog person and you like dogs, get a little dog who will, I kept running with you because they really make it so joyful and such fantastic experience. And it's a great thing To deal with your dog as well. So just a personal background for mom.

Cory Nagler [00:57:07]: There you have it. RC approved tip for dealing with the post race blues is also get a dog. Preferably 1 you can run with. I love it. Haley, this was awesome. Great chatting with you.

Coach Hayley [00:57:18]: Yeah. Great to chat

Finn Melanson [00:57:35]: Thanks for listening to Run to the Top podcast. I'm your host, Finn Melanson. As always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. Please consider connecting with me on Instagram at Wasatch Finn and the rest of our team at Runners Connect. Also consider supporting our show for free with a rating on the Spotify Fi and Apple Podcasts players. And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with our guests, and Premier access to contests and giveaways, and subscribe to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.net backslash podcast. Until next time, happy