Key Principles for Pain-free Running

Cory Nagler [00:00:00]: What's the relationship between strength and mobility? Are they really dependent on each other, or is is 1 more so the focus for runners?

Guest [00:00:08]: They're both important. If I had to label, like, which one's more important, you're probably gonna get more bang for your buck with strength training. You can have all of the strength in the world in your glutes. If you can't have a good push off position, you might not even use your glute. Your glute might not still not be active because you don't have the range of motion.

Cory Nagler [00:00:24]: The most important part of hitting any training goal is staying injury free so you can be consistent with your training. But this can also be 1 of the hardest parts. My guest today, doctor Matt Silver, became interested in becoming a physical therapist after getting numerous running related injuries while in high school and consulting multiple physical therapists and not getting better. That's why he decided to take it into his own hands to find a better way. He's the founder of Alpha Project Physio, and joined me to talk about his approach to helping distance runners perform better and with less pain. I absolutely loved all the great exercises and form drills captured in his new book, Built to Run, but it was even more fun to hear it from him directly. We get into some pretty hotly contested running questions, including his thoughts on heel striking or nose breathing. And not to spoil anything, but the answers to both surprised me.

Cory Nagler [00:01:16]: Whether you're coming back from an injury or want to stay injury free, his approach can help you, and I'm excited to share our conversation. So let's get into it. Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And I'm not an elite runner. But together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Alright, doctor Matt Silver.

Cory Nagler [00:02:04]: Thanks for joining me today.

Guest [00:02:05]: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me on, Corey. Could be it should be a fun talk.

Cory Nagler [00:02:10]: Yeah. I think it will be. And it it it's funny. We actually fairly recently recorded 1 podcast that is on balancing running and strength. So I think after talking about how to balance the 2, it's it's quite fun that we'll be diving a little bit more into, what actually are some of the, the right strength routines and and mobility too that we'll touch on to prevent injuries.

Guest [00:02:29]: Yes. Should be, it should be lots of good stuff. So I yeah, I'm excited to get excited to dive into it. It should be a good talk.

Cory Nagler [00:02:36]: Yeah. And 1 of the analogies I love from your book Built to Run was you describe it as a manual for staying healthy, and I think that's a great way to to recap it, especially for somebody like myself who's coming off some IT band struggles and I found strength training so key there. I wanna start with some of the biggest impact movements that runners can make and, you actually quite literally refer to some of the more important movements as the big 3 or some of the more important muscles as the big 2. Do you maybe wanna elaborate on those?

Guest [00:03:08]: Yeah. So the, like in in for strength training for, for running, the big 3 are, squats, deadlift, and the Bulgarian split squat. To to me, those are 3 movements that are, just super important, very important for runners, the squat and deadlift, you get a big hormonal response from that from that. Think of growth hormone, think of testosterone, just things that help just help build muscle, get a little bit of muscle mass on you and help you just stay strong. The Bulgarian split squat does do that, but also running is a single leg exercise. I mean, there's a period where your foot's on the ground, you push off, there's a period of float, and then your other foot hits the ground. So the definition between running and walking is there's with walking, there's a period of time where both feet are on the ground, Corey. And with running, there's a period of time.

Guest [00:03:56]: Well well, there's slow time. You're you're hopping. So we have to make sure we're training single leg strength. And sometimes you might not get that with the squat with with deadlift. So the Bulgarian split squat, you can still get heavy with that. I mean, I love it because you can train 1 leg, the back leg, you actually get a good stretch, a good mobility exercise on that set on that side, you actually you implement balance as well. So it's a really 3 in 1, exercise that I'm a massive fan of. And you can make it more hingey, you can make it more squatty because you can kinda hinge forwards into the the the Romanian deadlift, the single or excuse me, the the Bulgarian split squat.

Guest [00:04:32]: So there's a lot of ways to do it. So those are big 3. The reason why they they're big 3 is you get a big hormonal response with squat and deadlift. You'll get a response like that with the split squat, but also you get balance, you get mobility work. At the same time, that are also, again, single leg, you're jumping on 1 leg, you probably need a good amount of balance. And then the big 2 that is the calf and the hamstrings. Essentially those are the 2 most used muscles when running, which aren't trained as as we we definitely will get the hamstrings when you're squatting, especially deadlifting. But, it pays for runners, it pays for us, Corey, to train those a little bit more in isolation.

Guest [00:05:12]: And, again, you could do, single leg Romanian deadlifts. You can you can hit the hamstrings that way, but, hitting the hamstrings by, you know, during doing ball curls and, you know, bringing your heel to your butt and resisting that, that's a huge thing. And it's not just the calf, it's the soleus muscle. It's, think of this as it's a slower twitch twitch muscle, Corey, but man, it is super strong. It could just go go go go. I think it can handle like 5 to 7 times your body weight. It is a massively strong muscle. As powerful as the other calf muscle, which the gastrocnemius built for runners, this muscle just it gives you power.

Guest [00:05:46]: It just gives you a lot of just that every time you push off you're using that soleus. So it's a super important muscle and the hamstring and soleus together just there are 2 important muscles that we need to make sure that that are strong, that have some capacity to resist fatigue and just go, go, and go whether you're having to run a 5 k, or a half marathon, a marathon, a ultra. These are areas you definitely wanna pay attention to.

Cory Nagler [00:06:09]: Yeah. And I I really love a lot of the soleus exercises you put in your book and have been incorporating them into my routine because I think as runners, it's often ingrained in us. You do calf raises, but I've never thought to really target a specific muscle group. Yeah. It seems like most of the exercises for that soleus, you tend to be similar movements to a normal calf raise, but essentially with a bend at the knee. Can you talk through a little bit about what's that what that's doing or why it's focusing on the soleus?

Guest [00:06:35]: Yeah. The so when you do a calf raise, there's typically 2 ways to do it. You could do it with the knee straights, or you can do it with the knee bent. And it's definitely harder with the knee bent because like if I'm doing if I'm standing against the wall, my knees bent. It's tempting to want to straighten your knee out as you do the calf raise. Another way you can do it is you're in, like, you're, like, in that Bulgarian split squat position, and you can get low into it, and you can I mean, I could you could put a weight underneath? You could do a bent knee calf raise that that way with a lot of knee bend. But the the the goal here is when your knee is straight, it tends to load more of that gastrocnemius, which is that more fast twitch, very explosive calf muscle which you can do those we should be doing those as runners but it's not that we never use that muscle but we we don't wanna miss out on using on strengthening the soleus, which tends to be more active when the knees bent. A big reason for that is the soleus does not cross the knee joint and the gastrocnemius does.

Guest [00:07:30]: So we can take into account, you can turn on and off the gastrocnemius by how much knee bend you have. By essentially, it's as the knee bends and as it straightens those muscle fibers are put into 2 positions where they're more active or less active. There is some research I've heard coming out recently that's like, oh, there's no difference depending on if you do them straighten your bent knee. But I'm still under what I mean when I do a bent knee calf raise, I feel more my soleus. To me, if I feel it, it's it's doing what it's supposed to do. So, whether the researchers agree with it or not, when I do it, I know I feel my soleus more and and it I tend to get a really good soleus pump and the gastroc's nowhere near as active. So that's kinda what I mean by how can we hit the soleus versus gastroc and it just we end up using that soleus a heck of a lot more with this detriting. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:08:17]: I definitely feel it when I do those. As soon as you bend that knee, it makes a world of difference.

Guest [00:08:21]: Yeah. And when if we're not used to it, Corey, it's like like this sucks. And I'll I'll show people when we have workshops and when when I'm working with a patient 1 on 1. Not that I have massive legs, but I can kind of I can kind of do like a bodybuilding flex. I can show people, like, hey, this is actually the gastroc, and this is Solus. And there's 2 distinct, kind of muscle bulges in your calf. Once what the Solis, you get some more on, like, the side, like, the inside and outside where the gastroc is more right in the back. You can see the difference in it's, in Latin.

Guest [00:08:50]: It's like solace is Latin for flat fish. So it kind of looks like a the muscle looks like a fish like a like a trout or something like if it would just run your leg. But super poor muscle and it's it's a low hanging fruit that if you can work on that as a runner, it's just it's it's going to help you, especially if you have like Achilles tendinosis, a plantar fasciitis, other other lower extremity, like even some knee pain, like if you get your your your soleus stronger, it can help with those as well.

Cory Nagler [00:09:19]: Yeah. And III think those are good foundational pieces, both the the big 3 and the big 2 that you touched on. But, as much as I wanted the takeaway to be, just do these things and you'll be set. You do mention this little thing called simple movements in your your book that you need to incorporate as well. Can you elaborate on the difference between complex and simple movements and why it is that runners might need to do both in their strength training routines?

Guest [00:09:43]: Oh, yeah. So do you mean, like, the more, like, like, the complex movements, like, the split squat versus, like, hey. We're gonna do this. Like like, the hip like the hip kickouts. Like, you're standing on 1 leg, kicking the leg out with the band. Right? Is that right, Corey?

Cory Nagler [00:09:56]: Yeah. I was excited reading the big 3 thinking I could just do these 3 exercises that I'd be set, but it sounds like, it's it's not so simple.

Guest [00:10:03]: Yeah. And, for for running, there it's it's a nuanced sport that's it's very niche. And I found that out, you know, I mean, my history is, I ran all through high school and college. Corey, got injured. Well, I had to stop in college and got injured. That's that was kind of a motivation to be a PT and a physio. But, you know, when it comes to, you know, when a runner is strength training, what do they need? Well, hey. We have to make sure we have pelvis control.

Guest [00:10:31]: We have to make sure we have single leg balance, a single leg strength, and be strong on 1 leg. So, you know, compared to I I end up working with a good amount of powerlifters and CrossFitters as well where they don't do as much running. They do a lot more squatting. We probably had to focus more on that. But for running, hey. If you're running and your hip is excessively dropping or your knees excessively caving in, well, there's a lot of reasons why that's happening, and it could be from strength. And and if you just bought a back squat and and deadlift, you're gonna build a lot of strength in in your body overall. But, hey, we might have a deficiency in your glute medius muscle in in the side of your hip.

Guest [00:11:05]: Or maybe 1 glute is a little bit stronger than, than the other and the other side's really weak, well, we might have to do some single leg hip thrust to strengthen that glute. Or some some, hey. I need to really hit that glute medius and do these hip hikes into a into a big Swiss ball or an exercise ball. So, I'll think of this as, like, hey. We we might have to take a step back and hit the very detailed muscles and then we can be more broad and more general. So we're kind of I think of this sliding scale of squat deadlift and bulk area split squat. These are ones the big powerful exercises you want to be doing. And then as we scale down, we want to make sure all these muscles are active at doing what they're supposed to do, which the big 2 is part of that, the calf and the hamstrings.

Guest [00:11:43]: You're getting more detail with those more simple exercises, but, there's exercises that that should probably be done on a regular basis. But definitely when I'm seeing someone and I'm like, man, your glute medius is turned off. Your glute's super weak. Hey. We're starting from the basics. We're not just getting someone, hey. Go go squat with a 50 pound go with a 50 pound kettlebell. Hey.

Guest [00:12:03]: We might need to get your glutes stronger, and and get that up to par, and then you can do that. So we're kinda finding making sure you don't have any deficiencies, and then we can get heavier and and more forceful and more powerful with these other exercises. Oh, I if that makes sense.

Cory Nagler [00:12:20]: Yeah. I think that makes sense. So it it kinda sounds like those big 3, these are exercises that everyone can, should do, they'll work muscles, and then you can kinda get more specific from there depending on your your own deficiencies or strengths you wanna build on. Is that a fair way to put it?

Guest [00:12:36]: Yeah, yeah, pretty much. And and it's a sliding scale too of like, hey, I'm, I need to like rehab my glute, my glute hurts. So I like, it's every time I run, my side of my hip is killing me. Versus on the other side. Someone might be strong enough to, hey, they don't have any pain. But, hey, if we can build some extra capacity in there to bulletproof you, so you hey, you don't have injuries and just maintain that strength. Hey. We should be we should probably be doing something like that as well.

Cory Nagler [00:13:00]: Alright. And you you talked about things being turned off. This is a term I always hear my, chiro or physio use and Yeah. I kind of have only a very high level understanding, but I I feel a little embarrassing that I don't really fully know what it means in terms of what the muscles are actually doing. So what does that mean?

Guest [00:13:18]: Yeah. So if you go to, like, your physio or your PT and they're like, hey, Corey. Your butt's not working. What are you doing, dude? Like, why is your glute not turning on? Could be a couple different things. Number 1 is it it's just weak. And a lot of runners well, I mean, running name me 1 distance runner, Corey, who has a really big powerlifting glute. I don't think you can name any of them. Like like, running uses the glute, but the hammy's and and the calves are a heck of a lot more used.

Guest [00:13:44]: The glutes, it's a

Cory Nagler [00:13:45]: Does Ryan Hall count?

Guest [00:13:47]: Oh, not now. No. Not as far as his face. Maybe, you know, you could say back in 2, 004 or 2, 004. Right? But that would be a 2, 007. That when he was, I think he

Cory Nagler [00:13:58]: Somewhere around there.

Guest [00:13:59]: Yes. In the early or mid 2000s. Then you can talk to him. But I don't think it was he's had massive glutes then. But think of a muscle turned off as, hey. It's number 1, we probably have to straight train this thing. Like, and, you know, when I'm seeing someone who's I'm trying to to IIA good example is there's an owner of a CrossFit gym I've do I've done some work with. And a few front squats, a lot of weight.

Guest [00:14:20]: It's like 170. And then she comes to me. She's like, hey. I I think she was having some knee pain or hip pain, and if that's her boots, I'm like, you have 0 boost strength. Like, how are you able to front squat? Well, the front squats are more quad dominant, but she's using her quads, using her hamstrings, and using her back to be able to to perform that lift. So, anytime someone says, hey, your muscle is turned off, it's definitely weak. Like, that's that's number 1. There can be some other things going on with it too.

Guest [00:14:49]: You can straight train it till the cows come home and not see you know, you can do hip thrust all day and not feel a difference. Well, sometimes, this actually is a mobility issue, Corey, where think of like, if the muscle is a garden hose and you have a bunch of kinks in your hose, well, it may be very challenging to if you if you squeeze the nozzle of the, you know, the hose, you might not have a lot of water coming out and not a lot of force output because those muscles are they're not able to contract the way they should not because they're weak but because you have all this stiffness in the area. So it's it's could be a part of, hey, you do the strength training, but also it could be a part of, hey, there might be some stiffness in the area. You know, whether it's fascia, it's muscles, and then we have to do some lacrosse ball work. Some people do foam rolling, which is essentially the same thing. I like the lacrosse ball or a barbell or a kettlebell because they're harder and they tend to be more effective. A last thing is, sometimes you just have to bring more awareness to the area. And like you can do hip thrust and and just not know how to squeeze your butt.

Guest [00:15:45]: And I'm like, hey, Corey, squeeze your butt. And you're like, oh, man, I feel it. Bringing awareness can be a great way to just turn a muscle on. So sometimes when I when I straight test someone's glute, first, I'll do it once and I'll say, hey, now now really focus on squeezing your butt. And then all of a sudden, it's they they perform better. And we didn't do anything core. We just queued them to squeeze the butt, which goes a long way. Well, we can talk about that when we talk about running form.

Guest [00:16:08]: But queuing, I think, is underserved a little bit. So when we talk about why is my butt not turning on or why am I weak or, you know, why is this turned off? Could need to strength train it. You could have some stiffness in the area, and also you could just, hey. We need to bring some more awareness to that area and have you fire it better just by giving you a cue.

Cory Nagler [00:16:27]: Yeah. I think that's a a great way to describe it, and we will come to the forum piece. But 1 other thing you touched on when it comes to something being a little bit turned off is the mobility piece. So I'll ask this as bluntly as I can, but do runners need to stretch?

Guest [00:16:40]: They it, yeah. It it it depends. So, wait, I I someone else asked me this too. I was, like, late last week. Like, what why do like, should runners be stretching? And if so, how? So think of stretching as a part of mobility. If we have this mobility bucket in front of me Corey, you have all these different subdivisions that are part of mobility. Stretching stretching is a part of that where the goal of stretching is you wanna have optimal muscle length or, excuse me, optimal tissue length is probably the best way to say this. Where, for running, some areas don't need to be as elongated, but 2 that do are, your ankle joints and your hip joint.

Guest [00:17:21]: You need to get your leg behind you, need hip extension, and you need to have ankle thoracicflexion, which essentially is just your knee over toe motion, which, gets a which gets a good amount of attention. I don't know if it gets a lot of attention for runners, but those are 2 areas that you need a heck of a lot of mobility in. And it's possible that your well, that knee over toe motion, think about the bottom position of your soleus calf raise or knee over toe calf. Right? Your bent knee calf raise. You you wanna be able to get a good amount knee over toe motion because if we look at runners, and I've looked at YouTube, I watched, you know, high caliber runners run, Corey, they have a lot of knee over toe motion when their when their foot's a little bit behind them, when it's they hit the ground in front, their foot goes to mid stance, which is underneath them. And then when it gets slightly behind them, they have a lot of knee over toe motion. And if we don't have that, you may compensate. Right? You're gonna have stiffness somewhere.

Guest [00:18:07]: It could be from the muscle. It could be from other things. But think of our goal with with stretching is, yeah, you could have a short term benefit of I feel less sore, and that's fine. But really, the the goal of stretching is, holding it for 2 minutes or longer. It's a long time. You're breaking collagen bond. You're breaking fibers, and that tissue is going to heal in an elongated position. There's a couple other ways to do that besides static stretching, but static stretching is, you know, it's the common way to do it.

Guest [00:18:34]: And and you wanna make sure your tissues are long enough to handle the the demands that you're gonna place on them when running, which typically isn't crazy. But for those 2 areas, that the knee over toe motion and the hip extension, which is bringing your leg behind you, and potentially you're pushing off, you need a lot of mobility in the the quad, the quadriceps, and then the calf muscles.

Cory Nagler [00:18:58]: So if you do wanna incorporate some stretching into your routine, when is the best time to do this? Would you do that after before run? Is it closer to strength sessions?

Guest [00:19:08]: I would definitely recommend if you're gonna do, like, the 2 minute hold, which I recommend, I would do that after after you run. If you do it before, you'll end up there's an, a short term, There's a couple of physiologic effects that happen when you hold the stretch for that long, Corey. 1 is your brain, actually well, let's say your nervous system just releases tension in the muscle, and you'll you'll get a you'll get a short term elongation, which people like, oh, I feel I have more mobility or more flexibility after I stretch. Even for 30 seconds, you might get this. But, what ends up happening is it actually turns the muscle off. So if you have a hard workout and you static stretch your quads for 2 minutes, that you you might have some less you decrease force output and you're you might not hit the times you wanna hit. Which if you're really stiff in the quads and really tight, it might actually I might actually recommend it because it's gonna help you get to a better position. It will take the short term decrease of force output.

Guest [00:20:06]: But for the most part, I would recommend doing static stretching afterwards. My favorite 1 to do is called the couch stretch, C0C0UCH. Not cow stretch. It's a couch stretch. If you don't know what it is, go, look it up on YouTube. It's on our Alfalf Project Physio YouTube channel as well if you wanna look it up. It's a great stretch. I do I still do it consistently.

Guest [00:20:29]: I don't do it as often, but it's a great way to open the quads up. But, yeah, that's what we essentially, that's the what should be your method of going into static stretching is try to avoid it beforehand unless you're really tight. But if you could do it afterwards, 2 or more minutes, that is the that's the goal.

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Cory Nagler [00:23:34]: Are are they really dependent on each other, or is is 1 more so the focus for runners?

Guest [00:23:40]: I'd say strength is probably I mean, they're they're both important. If I had to label, like, which one's more important, you're probably gonna get more bang for your buck with with with strength training. But, imagine this though, like, if all you do is strength train, a strength training to run, you don't focus on mobility at all, Corey. When that leg if, like, if you can't get your leg behind you, I mean, this goes back to the muscle activation. You can have all of the, strength in the world in your glutes. If you can't get you can't give a good push off position, you might not even use your glute. Your glute might not still not be active because you don't have the range of motion. And then what happens is your pelvis actually will will tilt.

Guest [00:24:16]: It's called the anterior pelvic tilt if anybody's ever heard of that before. And then, oh, my back hurts because my pelvis is tilting because your hip isn't allowing your quad and your hip isn't allowing you to get the hip extension. Your glutes not stabilizing your back. So there's this just a ugly cycle I see where, if you're lacking a lot of ankle and hip mobility, you can fall into all these different weird compensations that if we just fix your mobility, first of all, you're gonna run more efficiently. It's gonna improve your running form, but it's gonna help you get into better positions when you strength train. So, and even when you're trying to squat, if you don't have the ankle mobility, well, you won't be able to get as deep. And, yes, running you text, you technically could you could kinda get away with going short range, but I'm a bigger fan of going longer range because it's it's, I think it has a better bulletproofing and, just injury prevention effects. And you don't have to go crazy heavy.

Guest [00:25:05]: We're runners. We're not trying to be power lifters. We're doing this to maintain strength and not get injured. And fun fact, running does not make you, doesn't make you stronger. It makes you a more efficient runner. So we know running. I mean, it's working the heck out of your heart. Your muscles are being used to do the thing you love.

Guest [00:25:23]: We got to take care of the muscles. And how do you do that? Mobility work and strength training work.

Cory Nagler [00:25:28]: I like that saying that it doesn't make you stronger. It makes you more efficient. Do you think that it actually breaks down your muscles, or is it more so a sense of it'll just exploit those weaknesses if you don't strength train?

Guest [00:25:41]: Both. For sure. And, yeah, I I think, like, more efficient runner, what are you getting more efficient at? Your heart's becoming stronger and be able to pump blood farther or more, you know, it's been able to pump blood more efficiently. You have more, mitochondrial density. Your red blood cells are more efficient and, you know, giving oxygen to your muscles, all that. So you get all that for money. Different workouts do different things.

Cory Nagler [00:26:02]: I think, essentially, if running isn't building muscles, is it actually detracting from it? Are we trying to take away? Or is there still some type of strength benefit from running?

Guest [00:26:11]: Yeah. III think I I think of it this way. Your your body is it's it's our bodies are amazing, vessels, Corey, where we can hand we can handle the loads of running it. I mean, running puts around 200 to 250% of your body weight, on your body every step you take. So it's like me, I weigh 150. I got a barbell on my back. That's also 150. That's 200%.

Guest [00:26:32]: And then plus a plus another 50% would be 75. So I got 2 that 225? Yeah, I got 225 on my back. And I'm doing these single leg squats, you know, partial or any single leg squats, a lot of force on your body. We're definitely gonna get tissue breakdown. And the goal with the so think of running as it is gonna give you some tissue breakdown. I mean, that's why when someone runs, like, my hip flexors are just so tight and sore after. My calves are so tight and sore. Well, you just strain the heck, especially if they're not strong enough, Corey.

Guest [00:27:02]: It's like a rubber band. You're pulling extra hard on it. And it's just a really thin band. They can't handle all that pulling. You want your rubber bands to be to be thick and to be powerful, to be strong. You want especially your your your tendons. You want your tendons to be actually, you want your tendons to be stiff and thick, like steel springs. You want your muscles to be supple steel springs, but you want your tendons to be like these stiff springs that you want it to be like really hard to pull back.

Guest [00:27:25]: Is guess what? When you pull them back and you let go, it's gonna snap back together and you get a lot of force generation from that. So we want our muscles to be I call them supple springs, supple thick springs that it's it takes a little bit of energy to pull them apart. But when you when they recoil back, you get a lot of energy from that. And if you don't strength train, your springs are just really thin. It's like that really thin, like, I don't know, mattress springs. You could just pull them apart with no effort. And, well, eventually, they might actually snap. And not saying your muscles are gonna snap but that's you know that thin spring is hey my calves are sore every time I after I run or my hip flexor is sore every time my hamstring is sore after every time I run We might need to to stiffen your springs on you and be able to handle that load.

Cory Nagler [00:28:05]: I I think when we went back to some of the the common issues you see or or what we're trying to solve with the big 3, you you mentioned kind of a, I think, 2 bigger causes, 1 being more so deficiencies in in strength and mobility, but the other being form. So I wanna come back there. Why is it that running form is so important?

Guest [00:28:23]: Yeah. This is this is the question I get a lot. It's like, hey, is is running form important? You know, someone told me just run natural, that should be fine. Or I'd all I have to do is improve my, you know, this told me to run a metronome, and I should be fine. Hit 180 steps per minute. And that's not bad advice. 180 steps. You know, that's what we'll talk about probably later on why that's that number is thrown around a lot, Corey.

Guest [00:28:45]: But, running form, this is like squat form. It's your deadlift form. It's how you know, it's your Bulgarian split squat form. If someone's, I think of that 250% of your body weight, Corey. If if someone is squatting if I was squatting 225, which which would be tough, that's that's a lot of weight for me. But if I was squatting 225, you better believe I want to have pretty good form. And as you get heavier, it's easier to lose that. And, you know, as long as you're trying to maintain, that's a good thing.

Guest [00:29:13]: But if your knee's excessively caving in, you're squatting heavyweight, oh, your glute might not be as active, number 1, but you might be you're putting your joints in bad positions, and your your risk of having an ache or pain or injury is is increased. So when we look at running that once we realize, number 1, running is a high force activity. It's actually high power activity like that force. It's going through your body really fast when you're on the ground core. This is why we do plyos, which I which we talk about to you. But plyos and power training is you're hitting when you're most people are the most runners on the fast end, they're on the ground for like 0.15 seconds, maybe 0.2 seconds and a slow run is around 0.3 seconds. So it is really fast. So, again, if if I'm gonna squat 225 and my knee keeps it excessively, what I might cause some knee issues and, you know, tweak, you know, just tweak my knee.

Guest [00:30:02]: Well, with running is the same way. We don't wanna have our knee excessively caving in when we're running, because over time, every step you take, like, you might have knee issues that might cause runner's need, it might cause some, some some, like, are some cartilage, degeneration is some cartilage, to become painful on you. Or let's say your hip drops, so you have an excessive hip drop on 1 side. Well, now that might cause my t band issues and it might cause some back pain because now your back's compensating too. And you're over striding, and now all of a sudden now there's there's you're spending too much energy. Now you're slowing yourself down every step you take. You have to reaccelerate. So running form is a part because not only is it we know there's a lot of force on your body, it happens so fast.

Guest [00:30:40]: And if we can optimize this, guess what? Instead of instead of having 250% of your body weight in a bad position, it's 200% 250% of your body weight in a good position that your body can handle, which which which is huge, which can really help avoid injuries. So not only does it make you a more efficient runner if you can optimize your running form, it helps keep injuries away, which I don't know any runner who would a, like to run faster, and more efficiently with less energy, and b, keep injuries away. I know I would. So I think I think running form, it's a really low hanging fruit that is starting to get more talked about more. And, you know, I wanted to do my part with Built to Run to say I mean, the the first chapter is an intro, but the second chapter is he goes right in the running form and all these things that many runners have no idea. You know, all these different running form impairments, like you're crossing over, you're too bouncy, you're over striding, and how to actually work on those. So I think that's a really low hanging fruit that runners can love with mobility running forms of low hanging fruit, Corey, that man, if you can improve that, you cannot bounce successfully, you cannot over stride, your knees not keeping in, man, you can you can really optimize your efficiency and keep injuries away.

Cory Nagler [00:31:46]: Yeah. And I really like in your description in in that section when you're talking about, these formed efficiencies, the the cues you list, which is essentially things to to think about, in particular. I know that sometimes I have a bit of that hip drop, and the the thinking about softballs, I find quite helpful.

Guest [00:32:01]: Oh, yeah. Like this the ball like the softball between the knees?

Cory Nagler [00:32:04]: Yeah. Exactly. Just making sure that they don't don't come closer together.

Guest [00:32:08]: Yeah. And that's that's where we talk about queues again, like, hey, my butt doesn't turn on. Hey, well, squeeze your butt, Corey. Maybe try that. Just bring some awareness to the area. Runners, I was talking about this with someone else like late last week where if I think runners, we and I'm guilty of this myself, we get in this habit of, you know, I worked all day. I just wanna go run. I wanna de stress and not think about anything.

Guest [00:32:29]: And by all means, you can do that. But if we can just bring a little bit of awareness and and just think about and focus on how you're moving when you're running and you're not we're not trying to stress you out of like, I gotta focus on things. Just just be aware just be present of how's your body feeling and when I started incorporating this Corey, but this in straight training goes really well because as you strength train you'll naturally be able to move better and and control your movements. But if we could be more aware of just what we're feeling and be able to feel that, like, hey, I feel my knees are caving in excessively. Let me focus on that softball cue. Or, hey, let me focus on my pelvis as a soup bowl. Don't or a cereal bowl. Don't spill the cereal, you know, from side to side with with a hip drop.

Guest [00:33:10]: And if you think about these things and just, hey, how am I feeling when I'm running? We can make these corrections very quickly versus 10 or, you know, 3 miles in. Oh, man. My knee hurts. Oh, man. I think my knee's caving in. Let me fix that. And all of a sudden your knee pain's gone. So, I think that doesn't get as much attention as it needs to as well of being present when you're running.

Guest [00:33:28]: Not overly present, but enjoying running and just kinda having some check ins. Maybe once every 5 minutes. Hey. How am I feeling? Once every 3 minutes. How are things feeling? Oh, feels good. Okay. Maintain it.

Cory Nagler [00:33:39]: I think the simplicity of it is great too. As runners, we spend so much time packing in the miles. It's great to think that you can get improvement just by literally thinking about getting better. Use the example of your glutes. Like, just tell yourself, hey. Keep it tighter or keep it together.

Guest [00:33:52]: Yeah. I will say this about the glutes. That doesn't mean, like, you have a full glute contraction when you're running. I just think, like, I've actually struggled with the cue for this. I had someone the other day and it worked well. But we did these drills against the wall where you slightly lead into it because running is a a forwards control fall. It's, you know, between on the fast end 12 on the low end, like, 5 or 4 degrees, of a full body lean. But, hey, we're doing this wall drill, and she squeezed her butt doing exercises that took her knee pain.

Guest [00:34:20]: It went from, like, 5 out of 10 to 2 out of 10. I'm like, alright. Well, obviously, we get your glute more more more awareness to your glutes, your butt. This is helping with your knee pain. So I just I'd say, hey, just focus on your glutes when you're doing these. And there's not I haven't found a good cue for that as she's doing, you know, she's doing like these marching drills as she's doing these knee drives into the wall. And it helped. And I'm like, hey.

Guest [00:34:40]: Keep continue to do these when you go home before you run, and this should help translate into, into your, running form.

Cory Nagler [00:34:48]: That's awesome to see. I I wanna get into some of the more controversial pieces, of running form because I know there there is a lot of form deficiencies you talk about that are well known in running, but there's some form drills that are or form deficiencies or mechanics that are a little more controversial. And the 1 that jumps to mind right away is where should you strike the ground? Heel striking or forefoot striking? And I was a little surprised by your taking the book. Do you wanna walk us through what is a proper, foot strike as you're running?

Guest [00:35:19]: Yeah. So I in the book, we talk about the, the heel strike test. So essentially, I'm like, you know, if you're at home, if you're in a car, obviously, you can't do this. But if you're at home listening to this, if you're on a they're the carpets, a hardwood floor works really well or even on outside on concrete or asphalt. Take your shoes off, and start jumping. Essentially, most of you like you're doing a jump rope where you're landing on the ball of your foot and find a pace that feels comfortable and essentially just land directly on both heels. And, I've had nobody no 1 ever tell me this test feels good. So no one's ever passed it.

Guest [00:35:53]: It's you're not supposed to pass it. You're supposed to fail it. But the point of this is we we don't want to be aggressively smacking the heel down. And I believe in the book, I I I'm a big proponent of, I still am a big proponent of, like, landing slightly ball the foot. And the heel kisses the ground and you push off. It's actually it's actually uses more energy because you're you're using more of the calf muscle, but, you get more energy return. It's your it's if we know running is jumping, if we break it down to its first principles, Corey, which is like just breaking running down, like, what are its basic elements? What is running made out of? It's a repeated single leg hop over and over again, alternating single leg hop, and then you fall forwards. And, yes, there's a push and and all that stuff, but that's that's that's the essential running is.

Guest [00:36:38]: And, well, hey. If we're doing this, like, we don't single we don't alternate hop on our heels. Maybe we can try to get a little bit of a slight ball of foot. So I'm a big proponent of that. If you do land ball of foot, and I I think I go over how to how to how to do that in the book. You do need a good amount of calf strengthening because it's it loads your calves a lot. If you're not used to that, that could be an issue. But I will say this, there is an efficient heel strike where, you're not overly heel striking and and you have a, you know, it's it's a it's a relative heel strike or it's not an aggressive 1, but you can have an efficient heel strike that is that you can run that way.

Guest [00:37:14]: Right? I'm not completely anti tie heel strike, but what I am anti is I'm anti over striding with the heel strike. That is to me, that's the bad heel strike. That's what you do not want to do. So and I actually I tend not to even cue people, Corey, to to blend on the ball of their foot. I rarely unless they want to do it, I'll cue them. I rarely cue someone. This is typically what happens. Someone comes in, they're really over striding.

Guest [00:37:38]: We go over, we we do things to decrease their over striding. So instead of landing way out in front of their body, they're landing. It's impossible to land directly under your body. That's not what we're going for. We just want it to be closer, closer to your center of mass. And in the book, it goes over these different degrees we're looking for, what the shit angle wants to look like. I like between 0 to 5, but it's hard to demonstrate without, you know, opening up the book and showing everybody. So if you're interested in that, that that book has a lot of visuals.

Guest [00:38:05]: But essentially, what we what we're trying to do is if we can take that heels that that heels strike, excuse me, the the over striding from, let's say, if you're at 20 degrees, drop it down even to 10, 5 degrees, 2 degrees, 5 or less is what I wanna shoot for. That just the the ground reaction force on your body is so much less than when you're at like 2015. That and also the heel strike, if you're over striding, your heel strike is gonna be higher no matter what. If we go to a more optimal strut optimal striking, your heel strikes automatically going to decrease and or you might transition to more forefoot or closer to like, kind of like a more mid foot strike. So with anytime I'm working with someone, I will, you know, if they want to, that's fine. But we just go over how to not over stride. And runners make that transition on their own, and they'll find what's more comfortable. But all I care about is we're gonna fix the over striding.

Guest [00:38:54]: You can choose the heel strike you want. I just want you to not over stride.

Cory Nagler [00:38:59]: So is the heel striking a problem in itself or is it a symptom of the problem being over striding?

Guest [00:39:05]: Yeah. It's, it can be a problem. It's typically it's not as much of a problem as it is when it's paired with the over striding.

Cory Nagler [00:39:13]: Got it. Okay. That makes sense. 1 other controversial form piece I wanted to make sure we touch on was breathing as well. Because I know in your book, you talk a little bit about, nose breathing versus mouth breathing. So for for those listening, what is the optimal way to take an oxygen as we run?

Guest [00:39:29]: Yes. Hands down, it's in through the nose, out through the nose. It's there's a, it's just there's so many benefits, Corey, of breathing, of inhaling and exhale through your nose. There's a filtering that goes on, which, you know, I'm living as I live in Frederick, Maryland, which is they're not a big city, but I'm like, you know, I'm sure there's some level of pollution in the air or some, you know, some level of things I'm breathing in smoke, I'm breathing in this, I'm breathing in that, pollen, your nose filters that out. It has, you know, there's hair in your nose. There's mucus there's mucus membranes. That's a big thing. Number 2 is it actually, releases, I believe it's I'm gonna say this wrong, natriuretic nitric oxide, which is a vasodilator.

Guest [00:40:09]: Essentially, vasodilates your, your airways, and I believe it gets in your bloodstream as well. So it just when you breathe through your nose, it actually keeps your airways, inflated, keeps them, dilated so more gas exchange can can occur with within the, the alveoli of the air sacs, in your lungs. So it's it and it's also it actually helps turn your diaphragm on. When you mouth breathe, you tend to be a lot more of, like, upper trape and neck muscle, which we tend to find that a lot of runners have, neck pain and not a lot, but a lot of runners actually have more like this upper trap kind of shoulder pain. As I go, I'm stressed out a lot. Like, yeah, but you might just be upper trap breathing versus using your diaphragm, which is yes. You're gonna have this up and down motion. But when you breathe, Corey, you wanna think like your your ribs are expanding out laterally to the side.

Guest [00:41:01]: They're expanding up in the front. They're expanding 360 degrees. And I actually have this exercise where I wrap a big strong band around someone's, lower chest. I'm like, hey, breathe it, like, breathe through your nose in and out into this. We can actually strength train the, strength train the die the the the diaphragm. So there's, I mean, just a few other benefits, but there's a lot of benefits of can you inhale and exhale through your nose. And think of the diaphragm too. It's been it's actually called the second heart.

Guest [00:41:28]: So another kinda tip and, running hack to probably improve your efficiency in running at these, at whatever pace you're at. The diaphragm, it's a massive muscle that actually helps pump blood and pump blood around your body and also pump blood back to your heart. So if you can use your diaphragm or it's your so you're you're you're using 2 hearts to to because it has a big, big effect on the, like, the pressure or the, I believe it's a pressure. But like I said, it just has a pressure effect on your body that it's just gonna it's gonna help pump blood around that this helps you run more efficiently, just helps get, you know, oxygen to your oxygen to your, muscles, and then also take carbon dioxide, back to your heart and then pump it back out of the the lungs. So a lot of benefits of nasal breathing that you don't get from, from mouth breathing.

Cory Nagler [00:42:16]: So, Matt, everything you just said makes complete sense, but I want you to humor me with my runner brain that's not trained as a physio. Yeah. My first thought reading this is, but the mouth and your, and your throat is bigger. So shouldn't you be able to take in more oxygen? What's what's your response to that?

Guest [00:42:34]: Your mouth is made for eating. Your nose is made for breathing. Like, your nose is

Cory Nagler [00:42:38]: I like it. Plain and simple.

Guest [00:42:39]: Yeah. Plain and simple. Your nose is literally made to bring in, I mean, there's more than just oxygen, but bring an oxygen and then inhale oxygen, exhale c02. Your mouth is not, I mean, yes. It depend I can find my nose and stuff. Hey. We have this secondary organ secondary part of my body that can, you know, I don't suffocate, which is this is fantastic. I'm not saying I never breathe through my mouth, but I try to breathe, through I probably try to breathe through my nose specifically in an inhale and exhale, and it can be tough.

Guest [00:43:05]: Like, I understand. Like, I actually have 1. I'm pretty sure I have a deviated septum, like, 1 of my nostrils. Like, my my my right 1. Like, it's very hard for me to get air in and out, the inhale and exhale. So I wear nasal strips. When I'm like, I really wanna focus on my nasal breathing, I wear nasal strips when I run. That that really helps me inhale and exhale after my nose.

Guest [00:43:26]: And growing up, I used to actually I would because I I knew I couldn't breathe into my nose and in an inhale and exhale because I just I have a deviated septum. So I'd have to actually I would do like this. I would breathe half through my nose, half through my mouth because to try to optimize my breathing as much as I can. So you could I guess you could do that. You could breathe in through your nose and your mouth to get as much, oxygen and and, in and C02 out. But the nose, it's, something else that I thought was really fascinating. And then there's a book called breath, which I, I learned a few things from that that have been like like, wow. Runners really benefit from this.

Guest [00:44:03]: And I included inbuilt to run, where there's an optimal amount of like, essentially, we overbreathe. A lot of us overbreathe as humans where their CO2 tolerance training that I go over in the book. Like, essentially, if you can become more tolerant at having, higher levels of co2 in your body, that actually helps you use oxygen more. Like, we're, like, we're breathing probably way too much where, yeah, you could, like, yeah, you can definitely probably get more oxygen and and co2 out with with mouth breathing. But breathing in and out through your nose, it's actually more optimal rate that in the beginning might feel very uncomfortable. But if you can train your body to get used to that, and there's a lot of it's just nerve endings that trigger breathe, breathe, breathe, breathe, you can train your body and train those nerve and those receptors in your brain and your on your heart to not fire as aggressively, and your body just gets more more desensitized to that and you're you become more efficient. Essentially, you can handle nasal breathing better, and it actually helps you use oxygen more efficiently.

Cory Nagler [00:45:07]: Interesting. I I didn't think of breathing as something that could be trained the same way as a muscle. So it's cool that sounds like pretty much everything in your book can be improved upon 1 way or another.

Guest [00:45:16]: Yes. Breathing is also a lot I keep saying I keep saying low hanging fruit, but but it really is. Yeah, it's it's something that I I never really thought of. From a running standpoint. There's also, do you remember reading about the double breath? Did you get that far at it?

Cory Nagler [00:45:35]: I vaguely recall, but can you expand maybe on that technique?

Guest [00:45:39]: Yes. And I actually my buddies in high school made fun of me because I would I would breathe like this. It was like a so it's I don't know if you've ever heard anybody run like that. But essentially, there's an initial inhale that's a little bit longer. And there's a shorter second inhale, followed by a full exhale. And that's so that that second inhale that and I do this when I'm running in a steady state. I actually did it during Murph, which is a it's a workout where you run a mile with a 20 pound weight vest. You do a bunch of squats, push ups and pull ups that you do you could do another mile.

Guest [00:46:12]: And it's it's with the weight vest on a trough and I did that for the run and it immediately halfway through I didn't and I started doing the double breath and immediately I was like wow I feel so much better. When we are running, especially running hard, our lungs will tend to collapse. So the air sacs are alveoli and just the lungs themselves, they they tend to collapse as we're breathing aggressively and breathing hard. This double breath that helps keep the the the the lungs inflated, helps them from not collapsing. And if well, essentially, if you could that that's gonna increase the surface area of more oxygen is able to to reach more blood and then more blood can bind to the oxygen and then that carries to your to your muscles. So, essentially, if you can keep your lungs inflated with using this double breath, it just makes running again more efficient, and you won't feel as terrible when when running. So someone's running. It's actually got I got this a good amount when maybe, like, 2 years ago or a year ago, I I got, like, an influx of patients who were, like, I have a little bit of pain, but I just every time I run easy, I just can't, like, catch my breath.

Guest [00:47:14]: I just, you know, I just it's hard for me to to to I have to stop because I can't catch my breath. And we can talk about nasal breathing, which is gonna be a part of this, but, hey, let's just try this double breath. And they had some pretty good success with even with their easy runs and being able to maintain and continue to run without having to take breaks and and, you know, huff and puff and catch their breath.

Cory Nagler [00:47:35]: Interesting. And the double breath, that's still through the nose?

Guest [00:47:38]: Yeah. If you can. I was demonstrating here. I was doing it through half my nose, half my mouth because it's III want I want people to hear it and not be like a weird stuffy sound. But if you can't do it through nose, for sure. And, for me, I have to wear nasal strips. I'd like to breathe right strips. I know some famous people are doing them now, like Alex Alex Harmozi and a couple other people have the the things around their nose.

Guest [00:48:01]: Think of that as it's, it just dilates. It opens up your your nasal pass your your your nasal, canals. Let more oxygen in oxygen in the C02 outs. Something I didn't include in the book is there's actually exercises you can do to contract these muscles. It's called your nasalis that will do it for you. I don't know if I can do it here without cheating. My wife can. It's harder for me to flare my nose.

Guest [00:48:23]: But just like activating your foot muscles, you can train your nose to actually track that muscle, and it can essentially open your nose up without the need of the nasal strips. But if you're new to it, definitely try nasal strips. Try running with those and see how nasal breathing, see how it goes for you because, there's a just a massive amount of benefits for nasal breath. It's and, actually, like, it could calm you down too as a, I believe, para they have parasympathetic response where it's like, hey, chill, relax, which a lot of people are stressed out nowadays. And since I've been doing nasal breathing, I just I feel less stressed out. It's it's it's there's so many benefits to nasal breathing core. I can't talk more highly of the start breathing through our nose and exhale, inhale and exhale.

Cory Nagler [00:49:06]: That's awesome. I I feel the need to point out that we do not have a, nasal strip sponsorship because you think we would with all the, the talk about nose breathing.

Guest [00:49:15]: Yeah. I I don't, I guess keyword is yet. So we'll see if we'll we'll see if I ever get 1. But, I just I would I would I go for a run, I actually wear the, like, the it's just the ones that, you know, you wear at night. I don't have the fancy ones. They look horrible. They look you know, I just look super ugly with them on, but they they work. You know, I have I run with them.

Guest [00:49:34]: I have the echo bike, which is like it's exactly CrossFit bike. It's massive behemoth of a thing. I wore that and I nasal breathe, and it's, it's a challenge. Like, it's it's meant to especially when I do the the breath work, the breath holds, and the c02 tolerance training, like, it can be relatively uncomfortable, but, that that can it can that can really help your essentially just build your co2 tolerance up to when you are running hard, your your body's already used to that sensation. It just doesn't feel like the urge to breathe. Like, that's a the urge that's just meant it's primal, and you have stop what you're doing. It's because, like, if you don't breathe, then, like, that's how we are alive. So if you can get you can train your body to be more comfortable with, with, essentially higher levels of CO 2.

Guest [00:50:16]: It's not the lack of oxygen. It's higher levels of CO 2, Corey, that causes to breathe. If you get more comfortable with those higher levels of CO 2, a lot of good things can happen.

Cory Nagler [00:50:25]: Awesome. Definitely gonna try that out for myself. I wanna move on to 1 other thing that you pointed out yourself is is super important to health and running, so I wanna make sure we touch on it, which is strengthening your feet. Maybe not the first area people think to strengthen, but why is this important, and and how can people actually get stronger feet?

Guest [00:50:43]: Yeah. The feet I mean, think of this as, like, it's the first thing that that hits the ground is your foot. And, our foot is AAA mobile I believe it's been described as, like, a leaf spring where it should be able to morph and, and fit the ground and not be stuck in, you know, and that shouldn't be a brick. Your your foot shouldn't just be it's stiff, it's locked up, whether it's flat or high arch, I don't even care, or a neutral arch. Your foot should be able to morph to the ground, pronate. People could say that it's it has to dissipate force. And then when it hits the ground, and then when you push off, it has to stiffen and become a rigid lever for you to push off from and and produce force. Problems arise when the, number 1 problems arise when a foot is, it's too stiff when it hits the ground, which sometimes, you know, not knock on HOKA, but that's a pretty, pretty big shoe with a lot of stack height and people have these motion control shoes.

Guest [00:51:41]: Problems arise when their foot is too stiff on impact. And problems arise when it's not able to, well, first of all, not able to dissipate force, but not able to become a rigid lever on push off. And a big thing you can do with the, hey, what with my foot is like, people say my foot's flatter and over pronates. Those people tend to have a a foot that that doesn't know how to become rigid and become stiffened and strong when during that push off. And the moment I see if I could show kind of show you here, Corey. This is my heel and this is all my foot. When I let's say I I heel strike, I hit the ground, I go through mid stance, and then I'm gonna push off the moment the most the most unstable position of the foot is the moment that heel lifts off the ground. So this is like late mid stance, essentially, it's we call it heel off or right before push off, your heels gonna gonna leave the ground.

Guest [00:52:31]: That's the most unstable position of your foot. So if we're trying to create, stability in in the foot, well, if if we think we're gonna get that with shoes that have, hey, I'm gonna stabilize your heel and give you this big, you know, all this plastic around the heel. Well, that's not really actually doing anything because heels off the ground. This is the most unstable position. The heels on the heels on the ground. We did that all that plastic you put there is not doing anything. So well, okay, Matt, well, if we're trying to create a stable foot, I have a flat foot, my foot over pronates and quotation marks, what do I do? Well, you can strengthen your intrinsic foot muscles, you can get them more active, you can aggressively push your big toe into the ground. You can create that that stiff you can create that strong, stable foot yourself and not have to rely on this shoe that first of all probably isn't even doing what we do.

Guest [00:53:18]: The research has shown that, first of all, those shoes don't affect injury rates much at all, if if any. And, they're not they're not not really preventing over pronation. Yes, you can put your foot in a better position, but your foots are gonna pronate, it's gonna go to pronate as much as it wants to really no matter what. There's some things we can do to put your foot in a better position, but pronation is normal, it's going to happen. Instead of focusing on stop over pronating, let's focus on, hey, let's get your foot more active and more stable and be able to help you create a a foot that a is going to dissipate force, but then can re, that can become a stiff lever and a strong lever that we could push from. And the way to do that is, hey. Have a really strong and active big toe, and that's a strong active arch.

Cory Nagler [00:54:04]: Yeah. And just as people are listening, if they can't see the the hand gestures, I I should call it, you're making to kinda demonstrate the the phases, of of toe off. But essentially, it seems like you're referring to as your forefoot springs you forward near the end of your, toe off. Is that right?

Guest [00:54:21]: Yeah. It happens around late, late mid stance, like the heel just comes off the ground. And then once that happens, that's where I mean, the foot don't get me wrong. The foot is important. But, I I give people exercise as well. I'll say, hey, we're gonna stand up, you're gonna press your big toe into the ground. And then while you're on, essentially, we create the we call this the runner's tripod, Corey, where it's your thumb, it's your inside ball of foot and outside ball of foot. So essentially, if there's my hand here, it's big toe, inside ball of foot, outside ball of foot because my heels off the ground.

Guest [00:54:50]: And then I'll have we'll do a bunch of balance exercises, pass the kettlebell from side to side. We call it pass through as you're aggressively pushing your big toe down because I want to teach that position of we know this is the most unstable position where you probably have problems from. Let's start to create some capacity and just create some stability here so you have a stronger push off that you'll be able to produce more force to become a more efficient runner by by doing this.

Cory Nagler [00:55:12]: So I I know 1 of the exercises my own physio prescribes. You kind of scrunch the toes, keep it straight, and then go to the outside, go to the inside. So so essentially just scrunch, and then as you continue to do that, kind of move to the outside of your foot and then onto the inside. It it sounds like it's kind of touching on those 3 areas. Is is that what's happening there? And and if not, maybe what are some of the movements runners can use to make sure that they target all those different areas of their foot?

Guest [00:55:38]: I think of toe scrunching. It's not that this is a bad exercise. It's it's just not, it's not really, it's not a it's not really accomplishing the goal of of creating this foot stability. I mean, you can strengthen your arch, like, a little bit that way. But the problem is you're we have these long, toe flexors that they actually start in the calf. They're they're they're deep to the that soleus we talked about. They're actually deep to that. They're right on the back wall of your of your shin bone.

Guest [00:56:05]: And there's a big long tendon that goes around the inside of your, of your ankle. It goes all the way to your toes and and your big toe, and that's what really scrunches things. Instead of scrunching, I want you to think, like, we're pressing straight down. Where instead of, like, scrunching that toe where you're flexing it, think, like, you're gonna bring your big toe up and then press it straight down into the ground. That's how you can really activate the arches. And then you can you can press it down. And I'll have people try to kick the big toe. I guess, type well, technically, it's out, but it's it's towards your midline.

Guest [00:56:36]: So someone has a bunion and they're, they're, you know, they have that bony growth and their foot or your big toe is kinda curved towards the other toes. Hey. Let's let's get some foot activation to strengthen there because that can actually help a lot with bunions, definitely with the pain. But hey, let's maybe do some let's try to get that press that big toe down and create some stability, and then move that big toe, you know, the opposite way of the bunion and try to, try to give you some access to some more range of motion. But that's that's what I'm what I'm looking for for hey, I'm trying to activate someone's arches. I'm trying to say, can you stand on 1 leg, press your big toe into the ground, and let's do a bunch of exercises as your big toe is pressed. That helps keep your foot from being super wobbly. You press that big toe down, it helps anchor the foot to the ground so you don't get all the success of wobbling, that that that may occur when running.

Cory Nagler [00:57:23]: Yeah. And and to the credit of, Mike Cairo, I'm sure that was probably the initial direction they gave that maybe got obscured as they described it to me through broken telephone or maybe me interpreting it how I wanted to. But you you touched on something you discussed in your book, which is kind of the paradox of cushioning or the fact that shoes having more cushioning, there's not evidence that, it it promotes any injury reduction. But 1 other trend we've seen in footwear beyond just the additional cushioning is the introduction of stiffening agents like a carbon plate. I wonder, do you have any thoughts on whether that has an impact on injury rates, either positive or negative?

Guest [00:58:00]: Yeah. I think the when we when we're looking at hey. I have a a super shoe with a carbon plate or a nylon plate, which I'm assuming nylon. I haven't. I feel like I've I've definitely felt carbon shoes, nylon plate shoes. Are they also fairly stiff?

Cory Nagler [00:58:13]: They're they're stiff, but not quite as much as carbon.

Guest [00:58:16]: Okay. Okay. So with with with those shoes, I I here here's what I do know. I know that they, they do like, most shoes not actually getting an energy return. It's just, which, some research says this, some doesn't. So I'm gonna say maybe, maybe not. But, you know, shoes that have higher cushion, you tend to get a little bit of force attenuation, which is your the ground reaction force might not be as, as high or as aggressive. But but with super shoes, you're you're actually getting an energy return.

Guest [00:58:45]: Like, yes, it is a it's a stiffer shoe that, you know, when you're when you push off that stiffening agent, you're gonna push off. It's I've seen those commercial words like that insole, and they compress it. It flies up in the air. That's what I'm thinking of. But you're gonna get some energy return from those. The problem is, it's a trampoline that does not discriminate. So if you're hitting the trampoline, if I'm like let's say if I'm gonna jump on the trampoline, like, I'm gonna run. I'm gonna jump off my house and jump on a trampoline.

Guest [00:59:12]: Well, you have some forward momentum and the trampoline okay. It's gonna you're gonna hit the trampoline, and you're also gonna jump off the trampoline because you hit it, you know, you're going forwards with it versus if I'm just going up and down with it. So think of them as a as a trampoline where if your running form is off or something is weak and your knees came in or your, your hip is dropping, you're over striding. I mean, if you're over striding, there you have excessive force that's pushing you backwards. The super shoot, that's only gonna be accentuated. You're gonna have more of that deceleration force. So if someone's gonna use a super shoe, number 1, we have to make sure we are removing correctly. So if someone's a new runner, like, don't even touch super shoes because, you're you're gonna mature as a runner.

Guest [00:59:53]: And once you you really have worked towards these things, if you're running from his on point, you have you're pretty good at strengthening, your mobility is where it needs to be, and you're an efficient runner, then we could talk about that. But someone who's new to running, enjoy the sport of running. Right? You might not be perfect. That's fine. Right? Someone's we all gotta start somewhere. Get into it. Enjoy it. But, that's kind of where I fall on Super Shoes is, it's you're gonna get some energy returns, especially if it's better for runners that are I believe they might get like a 5% energy return.

Guest [01:00:19]: If you're if you're a really efficient runner, if you're not as efficient, it might be like 2 or 3%. So you're gonna spend them $500 or whatever, $200 on a super shoe. It pays to, it's just if you're a more efficient runner and a faster runner, you tend to get a little bit more out of this. But it's it it they're non discriminant. So if you are going to hit the ground properly, that energy return is going to come back to you in an optimal way where if you're not hitting the ground the right way, it might come back it's going going to come back to you in an optimal way and that that could I've I've seen some runners who had injuries when they switched to those and, like, stop the shoes. Let's just see what's going on. Let's see why this happened.

Cory Nagler [01:00:57]: Yeah, so it's really extenuating any of those form deficiencies. Is that right?

Guest [01:01:02]: Yeah. Well, it's it's not gonna make them how to say this, It's not gonna make you over stride more. It's just the force that's going through your body is now increased. Like it's, you're getting energy return. Like it's the sake of if you're running at first, you're running out like a small trampoline. And that will just just use this as an example. You're running on a small trampoline, and now you're just like, let's just say you have a a trampoline that's gonna bounce you even higher. Well, if it's for the first trampoline was only bouncing you 4 feet in the air, you jump off, that's fine.

Guest [01:01:30]: But now you're bouncing 10 feet in the air, you might injure yourself and when you land.

Cory Nagler [01:01:34]: Yeah. Yeah. Good analogy. Just as we kind of go over all the different ways that runners can reduce their injury risk, because I know you really set out with this book to, again, be a manual for runners to stay healthy and fit and enjoy the sport for longer. Is there anything else that you would wanna share with runners where where that piece of of good health and and fun is really a priority?

Guest [01:01:57]: Yeah. I think that's, see, we we did we did a lot of topics, which which is good. But I think running is like, I don't want people to be afraid of running. Like, if you're new to running, like, get into it. Like, it's a great sport. But I just I feel that there's a lot of low hanging fruit that runners could take advantage of. Running form's probably a a big 1 that's that doesn't get as much attention, I think, strength training as I think we have. I think we've done a good job as a community, as a running community of of beating that 1, not to death, but I think we've beaten that 1 pretty good into people's skulls where either they know they need to strength train, they don't do it, or they strength train and they they're they they they do it.

Guest [01:02:37]: But, I think running form is a big thing that runner that that we can work on that runners can work on for sure. I think we hit most of the of the topics. I think 1 thing that I think runners need to realize as well is that injuries, running is a delicate balance of it's it's a most injuries are it's an overused sport unless you you, you know, you stepped off a curb and you landed with your knee in the awkward position or sprained your ankle that way. You know, those are are cute things that happen. But most plantar fasciitis, runner's knee, IT band, Achilles tendinosis, these are things that are overused. And running's a delicate balance of of, hey, you're hitting mileage, but you don't you don't wanna overdo it. Right? This delicate game of stress in your body and recovery, stress and recovery. And if we can do anything to to this is whoever the stress is, that's your running volume.

Guest [01:03:27]: That's the workouts you do. Right? That's that's the different conversation we can have where what's your mileage? What are you training for? What are your heart workouts? What are your days off recovery stuff? That's the that's all that's all fine. But what we can do on on this side of, hey, we can improve your running form, we can improve your strength, we improve your mobility, all these things are gonna bulletproof you to be to keep injuries away and keep you being able to handle all this training stimulus from from, hey, I'm gonna go run 5 miles or a tempo workout. That's the importance of this. And, yes, it's very time consuming, and I get that. But, I think if if if anybody takes anything away from this, it's thus hit the lowest hanging fruit because you're gonna get the most bang for your buck with the least amount of time. And that could be running form. I think that's running form.

Guest [01:04:10]: I think that's mobility. A certain amount of strengthening. If we could target psoas and hamstrings, you're getting a lot of benefit just for doing those 2 things. So if we target these low hanging fruits, that could do that can give you a lot of benefit from handling the stresses and the strains of your running, regimen.

Cory Nagler [01:04:26]: Well said. I love it. Doctor Matt Silver, thanks so much for joining me.

Guest [01:04:30]: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Corey. Do you want me to tell people how to tell people how to get the, get the book if they want it?

Cory Nagler [01:04:36]: Absolutely. Yeah. We'll link in the show notes. But if you wanna tell people right now where they can find it, by all means.

Guest [01:04:41]: Yeah. If anyone's interested, get it for 20% off. It's it is on Amazon. But, if you are in the if you're in Canada or outside the US, Amazon is probably your best bet. But if you're in the US, you can go to alpha project physio.com/built to run or alpha project physio.com, and then there's on the top tab, it says built to run. You get the book from us, 20% off. And we also send a free, gift, which is a sticker. That's I think I hopefully, I sent you 1, Corey.

Guest [01:05:09]: If I didn't, then I gotta send you 1. But anyway, you get it there. And, yeah, I hope you help. If you get it that you enjoy the book.

Cory Nagler [01:05:17]: That's great. Yeah. I enjoyed it. I find it's a great manual to refer to back to. III read it the first time, but I find after strength, sometimes I'll go back to sections and kinda reread to interesting ideas. So it's great for that.

Guest [01:05:27]: There is photos. There's a lot of colorful photos in the book that show how to do all the exercises, if anyone's wondering. There there there are a lot

Cory Nagler [01:05:35]: of photos and images, and they're quite helpful. Awesome. Alright. Thanks again, Matt.

Guest [01:05:39]: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Corey.

Cory Nagler [01:05:56]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at corey_ Nagler. Birth your strap up by searching Corey Nagler, and please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast. Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, and consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect dotnetforward/podcast. I'll see you on the next show. But until then, happy running, everyone.