Kara Goucher’s Longest Race

Finn Melanson [00:00:13]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn and this is the Run to the Top podcast, the podcast dedicated to making you a better runner with each and every episode. We are created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. On today's show, we're talking with Cara Goucher, author of The Longest Race, Inside the Secret World of Abuse, Doping, and Deception on Nike's Elite Running Team, which chronicles her ascent from Olympic aspirations to the Nike Oregon project led by Alberto Salazar where she unveils a culture of abuse and doping shedding light on the shadows of elite running. Goucher's resilience and advocacy despite corporate complicity ignite a call for reform in the sport, offering a powerful narrative of empowerment and action. Specifically in this conversation, we talk about the nature of Alberto Salazar and the Oregon Project and what made the opportunity so appealing initially for athletes like Cara. The value of taking responsibility and action to fix something that's wrong. Fear of being a whistleblower and possibly being ostracized by the running community, her next act in the running community, including broadcasting, podcasting, and ambassadorship among other important roles, and how she feels about the state of pro running in general and whether it's driven by cynicism or optimism.

Finn Melanson [00:01:43]: There's much more that we talk about, and I hope you tune in. Carrie Gaucher, it is a pleasure to have you on the show. How are you doing today?

Guest [00:01:56]: I'm doing good. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Finn Melanson [00:01:59]: It's great to have you here. And, yeah, I'm excited to talk about The Longest Race. But before we get into topics related to the book, you are I know this because I'm a fan. You're a little over a year into regularly publishing the Nobody Asked us podcast with your co host, Des Linden. And I'm curious from from a content standpoint, what is exciting you most right now about the show? Or, like, what are you what are you excited to bring to the media side of the sport for a running audience?

Guest [00:02:30]: Yeah. I mean, we just wanted to be able to talk freely. Right? Like, we just wanted to be able to talk about what we wanted to talk about. It's it's kind of funny because it's so unpolished. Like, we'll just text each other the day before we record and we'll pitch ideas to each other. And, like, we're recording in a couple of days and we pitch like, I pitch, like, let's talk about contracts. So it's really just free flowing. Obviously, we react to things that are happening in the running world, but I think that's what's been so fun about it is it isn't like, oh, we have to discuss this or we have to discuss this.

Guest [00:02:59]: We can just kinda go where it takes us.

Finn Melanson [00:03:03]: Do you feel like you have a a similar amount of, creative freedom and the ability, I guess, to to speak freely like like you did in this book, The Longest Race, where it felt like, you know, you had there had to be a certain level of, like, courageousness to take a stand on certain issues.

Guest [00:03:21]: Yeah. I mean, I think that's the whole point. Like, we didn't wanna talk about stuff and be muffled or try to, like, sugarcoat anything. At the same time, we also want to remain employed. So there is, like, a little bit of making sure we're not super offensive. What we do is we log on and we talk for, like, 20 minutes before we record and we get all the things that, like, we know we can't say. It's as real as it can get with us still having jobs. You know, like, every once in a while, we would love to add a little, like, snarky comment, but or in general, we're really just saying what we wanna say.

Finn Melanson [00:03:56]: I remember and this is from The Longest Race. I remember an excerpt from the book where you said said that you had always thought that you would transition into coaching or a marketing role or, like, a shoe design type role. But then once you were embroiled in all of that controversy inside the Nike Oregon project, there were times where you kinda questioned that future and you questioned whether you would have a role in the industry after everything kinda transpired. And it makes me wonder because, obviously, you've been resilient and you've worked really hard, but have you been surprised at how things have seemed to work out and you've kind of found not just, like, career stability, but from from, like, a fan standpoint. It looks like you've you've been kind of thriving in the running community in the last, you know, 5, 6, 7 years.

Guest [00:04:43]: Yeah. I mean, honestly, it's really been the last few years where I feel comfortable in my own skin, and I and I feel comfortable that some people are gonna like me and some people aren't. Like, even when I first got the job from NBC, my very first job I had was at the Pepsi Relays in Eugene. And the day before, they gave us a tour of the new facility, and I'm seeing pictures of Alberto's cells are everywhere. And I was just like, I can't be here. Like, I called Adam and I was like, this is not for me. Like, I don't even feel safe here. You know? And it took time and it took, like, just showing up and doing the job and to realize, like, I still have people that support me, and I'm not gonna let them take anything away from me anymore.

Guest [00:05:26]: But there was definitely a time where I thought, like, I'll never be able to work in the running industry. Like, I'm just blacklisted. Racists don't like me. People don't like me. And so I've been really fortunate and, like, surprised, but also just, like, so happy that things have worked out the way they have where I have been able to have a space in the sport that I love so much.

Finn Melanson [00:05:47]: Yeah. And it makes me wonder, like, obviously, I have to imagine inside of Nike at the time when all of this was going down, maybe the answer to that question of, like, where do I stand is complicated. Was it less complicated outside of Nike? Like, do you feel like you were surprised that how much maybe, people in the industry, fellow runners kinda stood by your side and said, like, you know, what you did was right. I'm glad you did it. Or was it kinda one of those things where, like, maybe the rest of the industry is less less interested than truth seeking than you are, and maybe they're more interested in, like, how does this viewpoint impact my social belonging or my my my job in the industry?

Guest [00:06:28]: Yeah. I mean, to be honest, at first, no. I didn't feel like, oh, outside of Nike, things are fine. You know, I got, like, pushback from even meet directors when I was still racing to come to their races. I remember on a message board, a race director actually, like, wrote that I was a liar, like, on a, like, famous message board. Reporters would write about me on message boards or in comments on articles. And so, I mean, I really had this feeling of, like, I can't trust anyone. Right? Like, I don't know who is actually my friend.

Guest [00:06:58]: I don't know who actually believes me. And a lot of the support that I got was really private because people didn't want to go down that path. Like, you know, like, even old teammates, things like that. They'd be like, we're so proud of you. Thank you so much. But, like, we cannot publicly support you for obvious reasons. Right? Like, they were still running for the solution stuff. So I didn't feel supported or even felt like I mean, I know it sounds crazy, but I don't really feel safe in the industry for a long time.

Guest [00:07:25]: And then I think as I as things moved on and like obviously when Salazar got banned for the first time, I think that helped a lot because it was like, okay. Well, I mean, I wasn't just making it up. Like, things were happening and and, you know, and I think that helped a lot and that helped my own self confidence of, like, I know I'm in the right and I know I haven't done anything to hurt anybody. I've only told the truth, and I think that him getting banned in 2019 really helped me say, okay. I'm gonna I love this sport, and I'm tired of sort of sitting on the outside wishing I could be in it. I'm gonna I'm gonna get back in there, and I'm gonna do what I can do inside the sport.

Finn Melanson [00:08:05]: Do you ever wonder if that ban hadn't happened, but, obviously, his history of wrongdoing was still clearly evident. If that ban hadn't happened, would things be a lot different for you in terms of reputation?

Guest [00:08:18]: Yeah. For sure. I mean, I don't I don't know that you and I would be talking. I just think I you know, it's it's been amazing to me over the last year that people that have said to me, I just thought you were like a woman scorned or I just thought you were revengeful and I owe you an apology or whatever they say. Like, some people have actually, like, cried men saying, I just thought you were, like, a bitter woman. I'm like, okay. Well, that's more about you than me. But it's it's, like, alright.

Guest [00:08:45]: You just think about that. But it's been amazing, like, the amount of people who have been nice to me and and but with this, like, this qualifier of, like, I didn't believe you, you know, and or I did I thought you were making a big thing out of nothing. And so that's that's, like, startling to hear. You know, like, I just told the truth. That's all I did the whole time. And so it's those comments are, like, I'm glad that they took the time to read the book. I'm glad that they took the time to really think about, you know, the way they were judging people. But, you know, I don't but that solidifies to me that without a ban, I wouldn't be able to do all the things I can do right now.

Finn Melanson [00:09:26]: Do you think that the book has influenced any change in in policy or overall culture at a company like Nike? Or do you feel like the and, again, assuming that you're observing things from the outside, maybe some contact with people on the inside, Do you think anything has changed there, or are they still following the same playbook for marketing and how they handle athletes and and whatnot as they were in, you know, 2012, 2013, 14?

Guest [00:09:56]: I mean, I think one thing that hasn't changed is the pregnancy clause and the inability to reduce or suspend someone for having a baby. But, there's hasn't been any big changes Like, there aren't women in sports marketing. Right? Like, there haven't been more women at the upper level there. And so it's tough because, again, like, I never wanna, like, sell anyone out. But my what I hear and and and also, like, no one from Nike talks to me. You know what I mean? Like, nobody talks to me. But the few people, athletes that talk to me, it seems like, no, things really haven't changed too much, which is which is too bad, right? I mean, like, I mean, the good news is the Oregon Project doesn't exist anymore, but a lot of the people that were involved in the Oregon Project are still there. They've just been shifted to other athletes or other titles, and I think that's that's concerning.

Guest [00:10:47]: I mean, this was a program that was not good, and it was not good for athletes. And, you know, maybe you should just start over. And that's not what happened, really. Right? Alberta was removed, but everybody else remained. And so I think that that tells you a lot.

Finn Melanson [00:11:02]: This is this is kind of a weird question, but you you just made me think about it in real time, like because Nike is so big. Right? It's this it's this behemoth that kinda hovers over the entire sport and it's hard to kind of escape its shadow or its influence, like, nobody can really disagree with that. A similar example is, like, you know, we live in this country, the United States, and I'll be the first person to say there's a there's a ton of stuff about the history of the US that I am not proud of. And and yet, you know, I I hope to see the country still in, like, a good light and try to, like, trust in the better angels of its nature and, like, proceed from that as opposed to dwelling on all of the evils that have been committed over the last 200 years. Is it possible to think of Nike in that same way where it's this big massive organization and there was a lot of wrongdoing, but maybe you can believe in, again, like, their, like, original vision? Or do you just see it as, like, it's irredeemable and something needs to, like, totally be revamped there?

Guest [00:12:03]: I don't think it's irredeemable. I know a lot of really great people that work at Nike actually that are really good people that have really good high ethical standards. They're not necessarily at the top, but they are potentially the future. And so I don't think that it it's like a lost cause. For me, what's hard is it's like, acknowledgment goes so far. Acknowledgment of, you know, I think after the whole pregnancy thing with Alicia Montano and Allison Felix, and when Nike changed their contracts, they said, we admit that we had some bad policies in place. Well, why don't you, like, really acknowledge that? Let's talk about what that was. Or for instance, with my book, you know, you you paid 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of dollars defending someone who's an I think that would go a long way in moving forward in the company and the ethos of the company moving forward.

Guest [00:12:58]: But I will just say there are a lot of really good people there. And if they can stick it out, they will be the future of the brand. And I'm hopeful that things will change by the time, you know, my son is old enough to think about signing a contract or something like that as if he as if he's gonna be like that. But I'm just saying, I'm hoping that at that time, you know, 10, 15 years from now, there will be a flux, especially in the sports marketing department where it is fresh blood and there are women and it is a more thoughtful process.

Finn Melanson [00:13:28]: Right on. And I I know I'm kinda scattered here, but you mentioned the pregnancy clause again. And it reminds me because, again, not every athlete is gonna have to endure what you endured, as a pro athlete, but they might have similar challenges from, like, a career trajectory standpoint. And, like, I'm thinking about the pregnancy clause, and I'm thinking about how, like and you mentioned this in the book, shoe contracts are a runner's lifeline, and not a lot not many of these brands, if any at all, mentor or prepare pros for a second act or or a pivot in the running industry. And so maybe before we get into, like, ways that you think about solutions to this, talk about some of the examples in the book where, you were really affected by these forces like the pregnancy clause?

Guest [00:14:19]: Yeah. So there was no pregnancy wasn't in a Nike contract. In fact, when I first signed with Nike in 2001, my then fiance was asking Nike, Adam, well, what if she were to get pregnant? And I remember being like, oh my god. I can't believe you're saying this. I'm not gonna get pregnant. You know? But he had the for the foresight of, like, well, you know, hopefully, she's gonna run for 10 years. At some point, she might wanna have a baby. And what I was told at the time was, you know, we deal with that on a case by case basis.

Guest [00:14:48]: So when I decided to get pregnant, it was an open conversation. I had fertility issues. It was an open conversation that this was gonna take a while. What's the best time to fit it in? And everyone at Nike knew about it, and I just said, I wanna know what's gonna happen with my contract. And I was told nothing. Stay relevant. And so I've been told by people inside at Nike that during my pregnancy, I was the number one requested female athlete at Nike at the time. And I was all over the place on magazine covers and going to photoshoots and meeting with people and meeting with children and meeting with moms.

Guest [00:15:23]: And, you know, then to find out, like and I wasn't even notified that I wasn't gonna get paid anymore. My financial adviser was like, oh, your payment didn't come in. And so it caused this really stressful time in my life where I wasn't getting paid, but I had to return quickly because I had broken my contract by letting too much time pass between races. So instead of, like, healing my body a week after giving birth, I'm out running. 10 days after giving birth, I'm back at practice. And it was terrible. I mean, it it just was so bad. And I feel like it set me up for repetitive injuries sort of for the rest of my career because I was just constantly always trying to, like, Band Aid everything because I was already on the chopping block of getting a reduction or a suspension or whatever.

Guest [00:16:09]: So when these things are really real, and I think it shortened my career. I do think that. And I think if I had had was given the ability to take my time and return to racing when I was ready, we could have had all the media hooplaure, and maybe we could have had, like, an LA Saint Pierre moment, right, where I came back strong and actually ready to be there. And so I am encouraged by what I see now, which is companies letting women take the time to heal from their pregnancy, start training when their bodies are ready to start training. And even Nike, Nike now has a situation where I don't I think you have a full year to come back. And and that's huge because that actually makes people healthier, helps their careers last longer, and and makes for these, like, fantastic moments, like seeing Rachel Smith win the 15 k or seeing Ellie St. Pierre become world champion when her son is 2 days away from turning 1, you know. So but for me, I didn't have that.

Guest [00:17:02]: And it it affected my life greatly. I was basically told you have to get back to race and then I wasn't being paid. And And I was told if I win the Boston Marathon, all of this will go away, which is really tall order for anyone, but especially when the Boston Marathon is gonna be 6 and a half months after you gave birth. So it just caused me to make really poor choices for my own health, and it did for the remainder of my contract.

Finn Melanson [00:17:25]: Do you feel like it costs you, like, an entire, Olympic marathon trial cycle? Like, what we've seen you competing, like, well into the 2020s, or how much of a hit do you think it was for you?

Guest [00:17:38]: You know, I I have really struggled with my pelvic floor and my hip for the rest of my career, and I still struggle with it, to be honest with you. I I don't know that I would have made the team in 2016, but I think I would have been able to keep racing at a higher level. I just think so much time and energy and emotion was wasted. And physically, I was always injured. I mean, I made the Olympic team, but then I got injured. I made the world championship team, but then I got injured. And I think I just I don't know that I necessarily would have, like, made another Olympic team or podiumed at another major, but I do know that the races I did run could have been so much better if I could have chosen to run them and I could have gone into them if I could have started a training block healthy. You know, I just think it could have been really different for me.

Guest [00:18:23]: And just even emotionally, not always feeling like there's a sword on my throat. You know? Like, things aren't really clicking. I'm gonna take I'm gonna actually gonna take that half marathon off the table. I couldn't do that. I didn't have a choice to do that.

Finn Melanson [00:18:38]: Are you are you seeing any, like because you just mentioned that, you know, pregnancy clauses are becoming more common and there is more support in 2024 than there ever has been in this area for female athletes. Are you seeing any evidence around just like general career support for pro runners too where, you know, either there is just more general, like, leniency around managing injuries and returning to competition or even, like, pipelines into, like, you know, another career in the sport as, like, you know, like a brand marketing person or a coach, shoe designer, stuff like that?

Guest [00:19:21]: I do think that there are some companies that are thinking outside the box, and seeing athletes have value outside of their performance. I think the typical shoe contract is still performance based. You know, your bonuses are based on how you do at races. But I do think there are some companies thinking outside the box of, hey, this person is captivating. Maybe they're not the best, but there's a place for them still here with us. They're they're connecting with people, they're inspiring people. There's still a way to use this athlete even though they may not be the best. But, I mean, I also hear from athletes all the time that their contracts are still really strict, and it's about performance, and it's not about, who you are as a person.

Guest [00:20:01]: And I think there's a delicate balance there. Right? Like, you can't just say, oh, you have a 1000000 followers on Instagram. Like, let's just give you a huge contract. I think there's, like, a delicate balance there, but I think we're still working it out.

Finn Melanson [00:20:19]: The benefits of omega 3 fatty acids are widely espoused and rightfully so in almost every healthy diet in the world. The problem is that omega 3 supplements face a lot of issues, from going rancid quickly to cheap forms not being absorbed. But thanks to fatty 15, now there's a better option. Fatty 15's c 15 omega 3 is made from a patented oxidation resistant form of pure c 15 derived from plants. It's vegan friendly, free of flavors, fillers, allergens, or preservatives. Plus independent studies have shown it has 3 times the healthy aging cell benefits of omega 3 or fish oil and that it's 3 times better, broader, and safer than traditional omega 3. C 15 works in multiple ways. It repairs age related damage to cells, protects them from future breakdown, and boosts mitochondrial energy output.

Finn Melanson [00:21:14]: Fatty 15 is on a mission to replenish your c 15 levels and restore your long term health. You can get an additional 15% off their 90 day subscription starter kit by going to fatty15.com forward slash rtt and using code rttat checkout for an additional 15% off your first order. Spots are filling up fast for our 2024 summer running retreat in Flagstaff, Arizona. Our retreats are the perfect combination of spectacular running, hands on coaching, informative and fun training lessons, and unforgettable memories with runners just like you. Whether you're looking for the chance to run along the Grand Canyon, experience some of the most picturesque trails in the US, or learn directly from our team of coaches and some of the foremost experts in strength, nutrition, and biomechanics, our Flagstaff retreat is for you. Now keep in mind that these retreats are not for elite runners. They're for runners like you who love running and just want to improve. Most of our attendees are between 40 to 70 years young in range and ability from Boston qualifiers to those who are just getting started.

Finn Melanson [00:22:24]: To see all the accommodations, prices, photos, schedule, and all other details, head to runnersconnect.netforward/flag

Guest [00:22:34]: staff.

Finn Melanson [00:22:38]: There is a theme that comes up constantly from start to finish in the book sort of around taking responsibility and and taking action to fix things that you see as wrong or sort of broken in the running world and, yeah, you certainly lived up to that throughout your career, it seems. For people in the audience that are that are inspired by sort of this, like, disposition, is is outspoken is out outspokenness, like, is that a muscle that you constantly have to exercise, or can you experience a moment in your life like you did with The Oregon Project that sort of gives you this, like, sense of liberation and, like, a like, a permanent confidence to speak up when necessary?

Guest [00:23:23]: Look. If I can speak up, anyone can. I'm actually, like, super shy. I hate conflict so so so so much. I am a total people pleaser. But I think I just got to a point where I knew I could help. And I knew that by staying silent, I was actually becoming an enabler of bad behavior. And so it just came to a point where I just felt like I had to tell what I saw, you know, and for me, it was originally going to use SADA very privately and quietly.

Guest [00:23:51]: But, like, people will say, oh, you're brave or you're courageous. I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm like a weenie. I am shy. I don't wanna fight with anyone. So that's my point is that anyone can speak up and, like, they they can hold their truth and it can matter for other people. I think it's just for me, it was like, it just got to a point where I didn't feel guilty that I had done something wrong, but I started to feel guilty that I could maybe stop people who were doing something wrong. And that is what started to keep me up at night.

Guest [00:24:20]: It made me feel like if I'm not part of the solution, I'm actually part of the problem.

Finn Melanson [00:24:27]: Yeah. That's something I've wondered a lot about, like, when an athlete goes to the negotiating table with a brand or they're interfacing with a coach that might not be the best fit for them, and they're sort of condoning the norms that are taking place there. They aren't only, you know, short changing themselves, but I have to imagine they are setting up future athletes for similar failure. So I would assume that for any athlete out there that is, like, thinking about what you just went through, you're not just speaking up for yourself. Right? Like, you're speaking up for the next generation that's coming behind you.

Guest [00:25:00]: For sure. And I and, also, I was in a position where I was so lucky I had done well financially, and I could take that risk, and I could say, hey. If no one wants to work with me, I can still make it work on my own. So I acknowledge, like, the privilege of where I was coming from. But it's true. I mean, if I didn't do that, there would still be no changes in pregnancy things and there would still be their Salazar would still be coaching. And it's yeah. At some point, it's just like you have to really realize that the truth is power and you have the ability to change it.

Guest [00:25:34]: There's gonna be another person coming behind you who's gonna be in this situation. You could have stopped it.

Finn Melanson [00:25:41]: I don't wanna get too much into the Oregon Project stuff mostly because I for those that haven't read the book, I I think it's it's awesome to sort of experience yourself. But, set the scene for what made this group and what made this coach, Alberto Salazar, so initially appealing? And and what sold you and the rest of your teammates on the opportunity to to run there?

Guest [00:26:07]: You know, it was just professionalized running in a way we had never seen. You know, like, we would Adam and I went to visit, and they're sleeping in an altitude house. So the house is, like, they're living at altitude even though they're living in Portland. So they're getting their body is constantly producing red blood cells. They have underwater treadmills in the backyard. So you're bored, you can just go get in an extra run. You know? The facilities are amazing. This beautiful track in the woods, obviously, everyone knows about it, but, like, beautiful grass fields to train on.

Guest [00:26:35]: What was then the Lance Armstrong Center, which had all of the weight things you could ever want. And then as a person who had been injury prone like I had, it was, you know, massage therapists, PT, like ART therapists. I mean, everything you could ever want. Like, if I felt my shin was a little sore, I'd have an MRI that afternoon. You know? If I had to have surgery, it was happening the next day. I mean, it was like, it was like a dream. And you're working with one of the best coaches in the world, some of the best experts in the world. Alberta would always have different coaches coming in and talking to us, teaching us drills, teaching us different ways to think, different ways to work out.

Guest [00:27:13]: I We we worked with sprint experts, right, so that we could sprint better. And not to mention then just like all of the gadgets, you know, like, Alter Gs are super common now, but we had the very first prototype, things like that that we just had access to. And so, you know, I remember, Adam, we went there on our kinda, like, recruiting visit, and I didn't wanna go there. I wanted to go to Wisconsin and live by my family. I'm a homebody, and I was like, this is my opportunity to live by my family. And we just looked at each other and we were just like, we'd be crazy not to give this a shot. Like, this is like nothing anywhere else in the world, especially Ben, was doing. It was just anything that you could ever want to be healthy and good was there and waiting for you.

Guest [00:27:57]: And I remember talking to Dan Path, who was with the team just for a little bit. He ended up leaving pretty early. But I remember talking with him and I was like, I if I the only reason I wanna say no is because I'm afraid if I come here and I don't make it, it's because I'm just not good enough. Yeah. Yeah.

Finn Melanson [00:28:17]: How about the how about the story that Alberto is telling about what the group is gonna do and how things are gonna operate? Like, the culture is is initially, is is that story in sort of, like, motivational climate? Is that appealing to you as well? Yeah.

Guest [00:28:32]: It was like, we're gonna outwork everyone. We are gonna outwork everyone. You're gonna go to the starting line and know that you have worked harder than anyone else. Then you have recovered better than anyone else. And you have left no stone unturned. And of course, like, that makes you feel confident, right? Like, you want to go to the starting line being like, well, I don't know what you guys did, but I know it wasn't what I did. I know it wasn't the hours that I put in and all the things that I put in. And that's really appealing.

Guest [00:28:57]: And and it and, you know, at first too, like, it definitely changed over the years. But at first, it was like, we're gonna we're gonna train for that window of opportunity. And when we get it, we are gonna be so ready, we're gonna seize it. I mean, we didn't talk about winning medals and things like that at first. At first, we talked about getting as good as we can be, outworking everyone and taking advantage of those opportunities when they arose. And as the program went on, you know, my last few years there, we did talk more and more about specifically, like, winning medals, but that's not how it was when we first got there. It was like, we're gonna do everything right. We're gonna outwork everyone, and we're gonna take advantage of other people's mistakes.

Finn Melanson [00:29:40]: If things hadn't turned negative the way they did today in 2024, does that original ethos of the group still appeal to you, or has your philosophy around what it takes to be great changed?

Guest [00:29:55]: No. I actually still really believe that. Like, I do believe, like, you can't guarantee your success, but you can get yourself as ready as you can be and take advantage of opportunities. And I believe you can outwork people and be smarter on your recovery and the things you do. And so, you know, like, what I signed on for originally, I actually still think is kinda great. I really do. I'm like, yeah, you get therapy. You are.

Guest [00:30:19]: You're constantly being taken care of. You work your butt off. You have a team you have teammates that are working with you. I mean, we got really close as a group. And, again, I I love the attitude of we're not expecting greatness. We're gonna get everything we can out of you. And if that door or if a window opens, you're gonna be right there to go through it or the door opens. But I actually still really like I like that ideal.

Guest [00:30:45]: I like that that thought. It just turned out that's not what the group was truly about.

Finn Melanson [00:30:52]: Once you start to notice, like, the abusive dynamics and the suspected cheating and all these just practices that don't align with your values, obviously, the story ends in in a in a positive light because you you take this awesome action and and you change the sport in in a great way. But, like, for for athletes like you and other athletes in the program that are initially living with it, what compels you for a time period to stay silent and why?

Guest [00:31:20]: You know, I think it it for me personally, in my own experience, it was sort of slow over time. It was like little things that I was like, oh, I don't really like that, but, you know, I could explain it away. I could kinda justify it. I always say, like, I am a world class compartmentalizer, and I think most athletes are. It's like, you know, like, you're an ultra athlete. It's like you can't think about all these other things. You have to be in the moment. So you just put it in a box and put it away because that's not helping your performance right now.

Guest [00:31:44]: It's just gonna shove that away. And I think that helped me survive a lot of tough things in my life. But I think it also made me really susceptible because I have the ability to say, oh, that makes me a little uncomfortable. I'm just gonna put it to the side. And even as things like increasingly got worse, I'm thinking, well, what am I gonna what am I gonna do? I mean, my entire life is tied up here. My dreams are tied up here. Everything that I want is tied up in this group. And if I leave, I'll have nothing, and I'll have lost everything that I've sacrificed the last 5, 6 years to have and to be, you know, like, this is my ticket to the top.

Guest [00:32:21]: This is the ticket to all of my dreams. And so if I leave, then I'm just I'm nothing. And I've lost everything. And my everything I ever wanted in my life and everything I've been doing is for nothing. So I think it's it's really easy to convince yourself to stay and to convince yourself for to just justify things. I mean, I was just, like, amazing at justifying it, putting it in a box, moving on.

Finn Melanson [00:32:47]: Yeah. You have another great quote in the book where you say, and I wrote this down, sometimes it takes being confronted by a healthy alternative to realize how unhealthy the past was. And so I I know we're skipping a lot of the timeline. But, like, when you get to that point in the turmoil, explain how that happened to you. Like, explain how you had spent all this time in sort of an abusive system, and then you saw the light elsewhere.

Guest [00:33:16]: Yeah. I mean, I was really lucky. I ran for Jerry Schumacher for 2 years, and then I reunited with my college coach, Mark Wetmore. And, you know, like, they would be encouraging and but then they wouldn't call me at night, you know, or text me or ask me about my relationship or, you know, it was so different. Like, I would just show up, rub my heart out, and then I could leave it there. And it didn't, like, stick with me all day, and I wasn't being judged outside of what was happening at practice. Right? Like, whatever happened at practice, they expected both both Jerry and Mark expected me to come, do the work, not complain, get it done. But then that was it.

Guest [00:33:55]: There was no other questions about, like, well, what are you gonna be doing the rest of the day? And how is Adam doing? And how's that affecting you? And it just made me start to realize how overinvolved Alberto had been in my life and how much I spent emotional energy constantly worrying about what he was gonna think about the things that I was doing. And just, I mean, he was my whole world. It's really sad to say, but he was, and we thought about pleasing him nonstop. And when I started writing for Jerry, and he'd be like, alright, I'll see you in a few days. It'd be like, wait, what? What do you mean you're not gonna call me 50 times and text me and check-in and, you know, and yeah. And and I think to just, like, having a coach that took responsibility in your performance as well. You know, I think, like, in the Olympic trials in Rio, I got 4th and I I remember I went into Mark's office and started crying, and I was apologizing. He was like, woah.

Guest [00:34:53]: Woah. Woah. You did everything we asked you to do. Like, you know, you he I remember you said you're acting like an abuse victim. Like, come on. We still care about each other. We still believe in each other. I obviously missed a piece of the puzzle.

Guest [00:35:06]: You know, you did everything I asked you to do. And that was a huge light bulb moment for me too that I still hadn't really let go of that feeling of just pleasing everyone, especially pleasing my coach.

Finn Melanson [00:35:19]: Obviously, like, Alberto has this negative superpower where he can convince athletes to to buy into that, like, 247 monitoring check-in, which is clearly unhealthy. Was that something that he was successful with just for a particular type of athlete, or was it team wide where regardless of your personality or how you were able to be motivated and stuff like that, he found a way to have that sort of rub off on somebody and then and achieve buy in?

Guest [00:35:50]: You know, I think he was real he's just really charismatic. He is. And he can make you believe. I mean, he when he talks to you, he looks you in the eye, and you feel like you're the only person on the planet, and he believes in you. And so I think he's just really good at that, which I think is part of why he had such success as a coach. Like, athletes really, really buy in. But I'll also say too, there was a hierarchy. Right? And it was like Galen Rupp, Kara Goucher, you know, Dathan Ritzenhaim.

Guest [00:36:17]: And then when Moe came, it was like Galen, Moe, Kara, or whatever. Right? So I was getting a lot more attention than a lot of my teammates ever got, and including my husband. Like, at first, Adam was the superstar of the gouchers, and then he was quickly tossed aside. So I think I think he was he's good. He's just good at getting you to believe. Like, it's a strength for him, but sometimes he takes it too far, obviously.

Finn Melanson [00:36:42]: What are the parts of this experience that you feel you have fully healed and and moved on from, and and what are the parts that you feel you're still working to reconcile?

Guest [00:36:55]: You know, I feel really good. I was in a lot of therapy while I was doing this book. And obviously, at that time too, not only was I testifying in the USADA hearings, which turned into cast hearings, because Alberto appealed, but I was also testifying with SafeSport. So I was just really overwhelmed with testifying and then also, just reliving a lot of stuff. I feel, you know, the night before this book came out, I I was, like, so stressed out. I was, like, I cannot why why did I think this is a good idea to share all this stuff with the world? And that morning that, you know, it was on Good Morning America and all this stuff, and I didn't watch any of it, and I just went for a run. But when I got back, I just felt so free. Like, I am not carrying around anyone else's secrets anymore.

Guest [00:37:42]: So to be honest, like, I I feel so whole, and I don't feel ashamed of a lot of the stuff that I felt ashamed of even just a year ago. It it catches me off guard when it does affect me. Like, I was at the Olympic marathon trials, and, I was at the press conference and Alephine Tolomuk, like, thanked me for my work in helping moms and that I started crying. That actually caught me off guard because I was like, oh, man. Like, I wish I could sit up there with my child at a press conference and have it be like this. And I'm so happy that it is like this. And it it just made me realize, like, oh, I was still grieving that I didn't have that experience. But in general, I feel really good and happy.

Guest [00:38:27]: And in a weird way, this book really, really helped me confront things that I never would have confronted without doing the book.

Finn Melanson [00:38:35]: I have to imagine, and I've heard a lot of athletes say this, that when they are either, when they when they experience somebody close to them who has has been cheating, you know, caught doping, or they just see the news that a colleague in the sport doped and that contributed to their success, they're sort of forever stained or their their mind is tainted in the sense that they can no longer enjoy the sport, like, every single time they see a breakthrough in the marathon or in the 800 or, you know, whatever event it is, they can't help but think, you know, is that runner clean? Is is that your lens, or are you able to kinda, like, step away from the cynicism and be really optimistic and trusting in what's happening in the sport today?

Guest [00:39:24]: Yeah. I think I can wear a few different hats. Right? Like, I'm on the board at USADA, and I'm a little bit more, like, not bitter, but like a little bit more negative there where I don't feel like we're catching as many people as we should be catching. And I don't feel like the stats re reflect what's really happening. But then when I'm talking to my son or his friends, I'm, like, really positive. And because I do believe you can make it as a clean athlete. I believe it. I know it.

Guest [00:39:51]: You know? And so I kinda can wear 2 hats. Sometimes when I'm calling races, if I'm being honest, I know what I'm calling is not real. But I've had to really just learn to, you know, and I've had people say, like, how could you call that race with that person in there? But that's not the place to talk about that kind of stuff. That's the place to just, like, revel in in what our sport can be. And when I call races, I really just go back to the person who was in awe, like, my high school self that was just in awe of everyone and didn't know anything. So there's a roundabout way of saying, like, I can go there and I can get kind of down and I can think, like, the sport still has a ton of problems, but I think my love of the sport outweighs that. And so I'm always looking for a way to to find the positive in all of it.

Finn Melanson [00:40:42]: Do you think it's harder to cheat now, or are the dopers always gonna be one step ahead?

Guest [00:40:48]: I think the dopers are one step ahead. I think that we need to go to more investigative stuff. I don't think if you get caught on a drug test, I mean, this is, like, so harsh, but you're kind of an idiot. I think everyone knows the system. People there's, like, you know, you can't be tested, like, 11 PM till 6 AM. People know how to microdose. So for me, it's more I I feel like people are still getting away with it, and I wish we would switch to a more investigative model. I can say from experience that you saw to kind of try that in the CAS case with Salazar, use some of their investigative stuff, and CAS wasn't ready for it.

Guest [00:41:24]: They they were like, if there's not a positive test, there's not a positive test. And I think so for me, that needs to switch from, like, the top down. Like, we need to really start thinking about different ways because I mean, if you follow me on Twitter, I'm, like, the most sad follow because all I do is announce all the people serving drug bans when they are announced. But I still think that's just a small fraction. And so I think we need to think differently about how we catch people. I think it's the same as it was in the eighties that the, you know, the the people who want a dope are ahead of the test. And that's just the reality of it. Like, you design remember who designer steroids, they were designed to to fall apart in the in the refrigerator once your sample is refrigerated.

Guest [00:42:05]: So you think in the eighties, they were doing it, and we're not gonna be doing it now in the 2020. It's like, I hate to be a pessimist, but no, we still have a problem. And I think it's still really, I don't wanna say it's easy to get away with it, but I think if people know what they're doing and they're surrounded by certain people, they can get away with it.

Finn Melanson [00:42:24]: For people that are hearing about this for the first time, actually, this is something I'm not very familiar with, the investigative model. What what does that, like, practically look like? Like, you mentioned it in the Salazar case, but, like, in a future hypothetical, what does that involve versus the standard today?

Guest [00:42:39]: So I think, like, you know, we have biological passports, so abnormalities in your biological passport. But if you but if you really look at someone's blood work, if you're able to gain access, you can see changes that are just not humanly possible, but maybe they're still within the range and they're not gonna get flagged. So things like that, like really getting into people's blood work more often, like, I mean, that's never gonna happen. Here's the problem. None of this is gonna happen because athletes already not everyone, but a lot of athletes already complain that they have don't have enough freedom. But I would love, like, a program where you're constantly giving blood and people are monitoring that. And then also monitor I mean, this is the part where I don't know that we could ever truly go this way, but people going through your emails. Who are you talking to? You know what I mean? Like, connecting the dots.

Guest [00:43:25]: If someone's doing an EPO, they didn't just, like, create it. They had to get it from somewhere. So how did they get it? And who's that person? Who else are they talking to? And, you know, I think too, when we see a lot of these coaches and agents that have multiple drug busts, like, what are we doing? There's one common cancer here. Right? There's all these athletes that are serving bands, but the coaches and the agents aren't. So that's another thing I'd love to see governing bodies start going after agents and coaches, which is super, controversial, and and agents hate it when I say that. And I think if you hate it when I say it's because probably you're, you know, you might know more than you should.

Finn Melanson [00:44:05]: It's interesting. I mean, it's an interesting proposition to think that, you know, in the years to come, if we ever did move to this fully, and athletes would just have to expect if they're gonna enter this realm of the sport, they're gonna be under much stricter scrutiny. They're gonna give up some freedom, and there are gonna be data points in their life that are gonna be constantly available. This is a super weird example, but it makes me think of, like, the marketing world, the influencer world where there's a dashboard of Instagram metrics and Twitter metrics and conversions that are just out in the wide open for your brand partners to see and evaluate on, and it kinda keeps the relationship honest. It's a super different, maybe kind of a reach example, but it's the first thing I could think of. I would love to see that. I think that makes a ton of sense.

Guest [00:44:49]: Yeah. I would love to see more transparency and things like that. But I I know that even at USADA, Travis Tigard disagrees with me. He feels like athletes are, giving up enough as it is. I don't think it's that hard, especially with the technology that's getting better and better. Like, you can just do, like, the dried blood test now. Like, you don't even have to take a vial out of your arm. They can just get a little prick and get one little dried blood spat.

Guest [00:45:14]: It would be so easy for athletes to be constantly doing that and and building their, you know, their little treasure trove of results. So I don't know. I think it's it's something has to change because the system isn't really working great right now. I mean, some people like to say it's working great, and they'll point to all the tests that I put on my Twitter of people who got caught. But, well, how come all the people getting caught are, like, b level athletes? That doesn't make sense either. So I don't feel like it's working. And I I and I know that there are people who care. I truly believe.

Guest [00:45:47]: I know that Usati cares. But I just think, like you were saying, I mean, I mean, I've gotten to know, Tyler Hamilton over the years, and he was able to dope and knew how to avoid the testing and knew what to do and how to take it and when to take it. So, and and all of the none of that has changed. So we gotta think differently.

Finn Melanson [00:46:11]: Well, Cara, thank you so much for being on the show today. The book again is called The Longest Race. I know we glossed over a lot of critical topics. That was intentional on my part because I really want to encourage people to read this book. I think it's a very important story to be aware of and educated on, so we'll link to that in the show notes. I always give the guest the final word. Are there any final calls to action or thoughts you wanna leave the audience with before we go?

Guest [00:46:37]: I just don't wanna end on a negative note. Right? Like, I do think that doping is a problem in our sport, but I also love our sport so much. And so even after everything I've been through and witnessed, I just want people to, like, watch the meets that are on TV, pay attention to the marathons, watch the ultra marathons, like, our sport is really life changing. And so, yeah, there are some there are some bad seeds in there, but the the overwhelming majority of people are just awesome and what they're doing is incredible and inspiring.

Finn Melanson [00:47:21]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm your host, Finn Melanson. As always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. Please consider connecting with me on Instagram at wasatchfin and the rest of our team at Runners Connect. Also, consider supporting our show for free with a rating on the Spotify and Apple Podcast Players. And lastly, if you love the show and want both of you to premier access to contests and giveaways, you can subscribe to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netbackslashpodcast. Until next time. Happy trading.