Is this the “optimal” diet and supplement strategy for runners?

Guest [00:00:05]: I'm Richard Rosenfeld, and you are listening to the run to the top pot cast.

Finn Melanson [00:00:13]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn Moulansen, and this is the run to the top podcast. The podcast dedicated to making you a better runner with each and every episode. We are created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the internet, as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Is there an optimal diet for runners? Are certain supplements more appropriate and effective for runners than others out there on the market? These are some of the bigger intriguing questions that we runners base when dialing in our nutritional strategies for training and racing. And here today to break it all down and answer these questions head on is professor Richard Rosenfeld from the State University of New York in Brooklyn with over

Guest [00:01:05]: 350

Finn Melanson [00:01:07]: peer reviewed medical publications. 8 years as editor in chief of a major medical journal, and board certified in lifestyle medicine, among other significant credentials specifically. We address what it means to engage in, quote, unquote, clean eating, differences, pros and cons between various diets such as plant based and low carb high fat, the pros and cons of regular animal versus plant sourced protein intake, the benefits of certain supplements, such as caffeine, creatine, vitamin e, and more. There's a lot of practical value in this conversation. Let's get into it. Today's episode is sponsored by magnesium breakthrough from biopomizers. Their industry leading magnesium supplement helps you sleep better and reduce stress. Head to magbreakthrough.comforward/run to the top to learn more and save

Guest [00:02:04]: 10%.

Finn Melanson [00:02:07]: If you're looking for the most effectively dosed electrolyte drink for runners, check out element spelled lmnt. It's loaded with everything you need to replenish your electrolyte balance, and you can get a free sample pack by going to drink lmnt.com forward slash runners connect.

Finn Melanson [00:02:29]: Richard Rosenfeld. It's great to have you on the show. How are you doing today?

Guest [00:02:33]: Terrific, Fin. Thank you so much.

Finn Melanson [00:02:35]: Well, we're glad to have you here. And for anybody that was not at the retreat, you you presented at

Guest [00:02:40]: 1

Finn Melanson [00:02:40]: of our recent events in Flagstaff, about optimal running and lifestyle medicine and all of the evidence an advice on nutrition and supplements for runners in the space. And before we get into some of those specific details on each of those topics, I'd love for you to talk a bit about the bigger picture here outlining what you see as the, the 6 pillars of lifestyle medicine. So what are these 6 pillars in how are they relevant to the running community?

Guest [00:03:11]: Sure. So let me let me just begin with a real quick word about, myself and lifestyle medicine. in that I'm in your nose and throat talk. I've been working at the State University of New York at Downstate in Brooklyn for more than 30 years where I'm at distinguished professor, the highest rank. I shared the department of ENT for about 13 years and ran the residency training. So I have a pretty solid background in medical education in publishing and critical thinking. I've published more than 350 peer reviewed articles, 5 books, and was editor in chief of the main journal in our field for for 8 years. So when I speak today, I'll be very careful to distinguish Rosenfeld based medicine from more evidence based or evidence in foreign medicine, which is what I wanna emphasize. So as you mentioned, this is part of the bigger picture of lifestyle medicine. which became a medical specialty in about 2004 when the Academy American College of Lifestyle Medicine formed It's picked up a lot of steam in the past 10 years with now approaching 9000 members, and we have about 25100 docs who are board certified in lifestyle medicine, which brings up the question of what is lifestyle medicine? and it's based around that, as you noted, Fin 6 pillars. So first is more of a plan forward, plan focused, nutrition, then we get into adequate physical activity and exercise, stress reduction, positive social relationships, avoiding risky substances and perhaps the most difficult for all getting some adequate and restorative sleep.

Finn Melanson [00:05:06]: What do you have those 6 pillars which pillar do you believe is under the most threat right now? Or maybe put in other words, which pillar do you think people in American society, for example, are struggling the most to achieve and why.

Guest [00:05:21]: Yeah. Without doubt, it's nutrition and, the evidence worldwide now is that the number one killer when you move beyond communicable diseases is poor diet, particularly too much salt and not enough good stuff. It's surpass smoking as a main killer in the world and, you know, probably a close second is not getting enough exercise probably 10 to 15% of Americans actually even meet the minimal standards of a 150 minutes of some moderate intensity exercise weekly.

Finn Melanson [00:05:56]: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it it seems like in the last 30 years, we've done a pretty good job from a public education standpoint reducing the rate of smoking in this country and educating people. And like you said, nutrition has now surpassed smoking as, one of the the leading causes of major illnesses in human death, do you have faith that with the resources that we have available we'll be able to put a similar dent in the nutrition problem like we did smoking in the last 25 to 30 years?

Guest [00:06:27]: Well, I always have optimism for the future, but you know, I think it's gonna be a tough haul and you're absolutely right. Smoking, we've made great gains. but go back to the mid 19 sixties when the surgeon general said there's overwhelming evidence that smoking causes cancer and is bad for you. Did the medical community embrace that? No. It took years if not decades for change to occur and The reason being that in 1965, most doctors are smokers. Are they gonna come out and say don't smoke? It's bad for you. Well, right now, Nirvana for a doctor is probably being taken out by a medical company for a steak dinner. with a good porterhouse, some cream spinach, a baked potato loaded with sour cream and butter throwing some apple cobbler and maybe a cigar or 2 and some drinks. are those the folks that are gonna talk about healthy eating? If that's what they eat and the average medical student gets about 9 hours of nutrition education, most of which is reductionist based on deficiency states, not about the power of of food as medicine. So I'm hopeful. I think there are a lot of things afoot and, the American College of Lifestyle Met Medicine has made tremendous gains in medical schools. There's over a 100 lifestyle Medicine interest groups. So I think the key is this will be a student led and probably resident led change that the docs will will come along slowly and reluctantly, but eventually.

Finn Melanson [00:08:06]: I I do wanna get to some of the running based diet questions I have for you, but one more thing on this front, because I have to imagine that in the fifties, sixties, seventies, the smoking lobbyists out there were similarly whining and dining the doctors of that day. What incentive changed in that medical community that might also change in a similar way in the nutrition community for progress to be made.

Guest [00:08:32]: think with with smoking, the evidence just became overwhelming. it it it just so substantial that no one could deny it. and smoking itself seemed to get some negative press eventually. The press people, the public came around to sort of regard it as not cool. you know, I when will, as Michael Gregor say, Big Broccoli get around to putting up money to show that broccoli is cool and, you know, meat, dairy, and and other industry, sugar industry, are are are possibly hurting us. I don't know, but I I think there is there is change of foot and we're in a tipping point. A lot of it was COVID. the people who did worst with COVID were the ones who were obese had comorbid conditions, most of which were lifestyle related and and smoked and had lung disease. So COVID really shown a spotlight on how important it is to have a healthy lifestyle to whether a storm, whether it's infectious or virus or otherwise.

Finn Melanson [00:09:42]: guess one more question I have for you on this front is just we've seen a lot of reporting out there, documentaries out there, etcetera, that highlight how a lot of folks in the medical community are incentivized to focus on treatment as opposed to prevention in the first place for a lot of these issues, but you presented data at this flagstaff running retreat that shows that it's not just the medical establishment that has this incentives issue. Like, patients also prefer medication as a solution over lifestyle change. And I guess to start to bring this to the running community, is this is this something that people in the running community that already have a pretty active healthy lifestyle have to worry about in terms of behavior?

Guest [00:10:25]: So, yeah, you're absolutely right that national surveys show that particularly among 18 to roughly fifty year old individuals, given a choice in managing a chronic condition, about half of them would rather take a pill than change their lifestyle. I I think runners are far more motivated. that they've already gotten a taste of, running and the benefits it brings, but, you know, having been to a lot of different venues with runners. They come in all shapes and sizes and I've seen runners who who vape, who smoke, who eat junk food constantly, who drink excessively. So you know, I think runners are like anybody else. They have their lifestyle. They have their behaviors, and I think it incumbent upon us as educators and part of the running community to show that it's not just running. It's these other life style factors that will influence your success as a runner. Annual Ingevity in your health span overall.

Finn Melanson [00:11:31]: We've heard a common frame in our community that you can quote unquote outrun a bad diet. Like, you could go run a marathon a day. You could do all these workouts. You could stretch, sleep well. but also, you know, eat at McDonald's every single day. And you're just not gonna suffer the consequences. That's that's some of the prevailing wisdom among, you know, common runners like myself. Can you either confirm or dispel this and maybe talk about what the data says around the estimated impact of, like, eating a lot of, like, McDonald's each day even on the life expectancy of runners.

Guest [00:12:07]: Sure. Well, when you talk about McDonald's film, we're really talking about ultra processed foods, which are Foods typically in the center of the supermarket and the aisles and the frozen sections that you literally need a chemistry degree to understand what's in them. and it's about 70% of the standard American diet. so all fast food would fall in that category, even things like pizza. things that are prepared. They're typically loaded with salt and chemicals and ingredients. They they taste real good and and people like them because of the salt, the oil, and, the sugar content, but they're horrible for you there's a a saying is called, toffee, thin on the outside, fat on the inside. and I think as a runner eating junk food, you run the risk of being a a really great toffee. You might be a little thin on the outside but your arteries are all clogged up and you're going the wrong way and it may or may not catch out with you. Listen medicine. When we do research, we deal with averages and some people beat the averages. It's it's always hard to predict an individual, but on average, If you're eating all that ultra processed food and that 70, 80% of your diet, it will catch up to you at some point. And even if you don't live less, the time you are living, you'll be less healthy, productive, fit, and, you know, acute in thinking. So It all catches up eventually.

Finn Melanson [00:13:42]: I like how you mentioned the perils of shopping and the interior of a supermarket. I've I've been told by some folks to stay on the parameters, you know, vegetable, fruit aisle, maybe the meat dairy section on the other perimeter, and, like, just avoid the interior of the supermarket if you can. it makes me wanna ask you because you did talk about this at length in the retreat what constitutes clean eating is maybe we can define what clean eating is and then talk about what constitutes this this diet, or lifestyle of eating because I've I've heard the term or the phrase thrown around a lot, but if I was to provide, like, a comprehensive answer. I probably couldn't. So, how would you describe it?

Guest [00:14:23]: When you talk about clean eating, you know, that's the most common diet that people identify with now. It's really rising and a little over 50% of Americans will say they follow some sort of diet with clean eating being way up at the top, and what it means is basically avoiding the stuff we just talked about. So you're gonna focus on fresh fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, legumes. If you do have meat and dairy, it's hopefully, clean. It's, not farm raised. It's, more, humanely raised. with, in the fields and it sustainably sourced the fish. If you're drinking dairy, it less refined, more whole milk and and, dairy in that sense, and you're avoiding the sugar sweetened beverages and all the the processed foods. So that would would probably be the most common definition of of eating clean that that is out there.

Finn Melanson [00:15:35]: Is this something as a society that we've always had to struggle with and prioritize because there's been quote, unquote, unclean options that are more prevalent, or is this a more modern problem where know, because of the supply chain or the way that we organize food production in this country in the last 25 to 50 years. It's now this we have to add the modifier clean on the Eden. Like, how do you How would you contextualize this in the history of eating?

Guest [00:16:03]: Well, we can go way back to to the Neanderthals in the caveman and talk about paleo. which was actually a very clean diet. Paleo today is associated with, like, a carnivore diet just loading up on tons of meat butter cheese, but the original paleo was was very plant focused, plant forward. It was healthy. healthy plants. it it wasn't overwhelmingly meat. And what happened is as we got better at processing and preserving food in the forties, 50, sixties, and probably the big killer was the advent of TV dinners in the sixties. brought together a whole chemistry shop of convenience in a in a aluminum foil covered plate microwaves, opened up a whole new era of being able to instantly prepare ultra processed food and, the industry, the dairy industry, the sugar industry, the food industry in general has sought to make things that sell and food can be very addicting. you wanna get someone addicted on food. Just put a lot of salt, sugar oil in there and and and give it a good consistency and a reasonable price and it gets going. So and then the the rise of the fast food industry I remember in the sixties when the first McDonald's popped up. Now they're ubiquitous everywhere. even in the food deserts and areas of food apart hide, you'll find incredible fast food sources. So we've been inundated with it as a society. It's readily available. It's convenient. It's for the most part cheap and it's pushed upon us in marketing and in many ways and the alternative, the healthy aspect has not yet been embraced. by medicine and by the industry to the degree that it offsets the marketing on the other end.

Finn Melanson [00:17:59]: Within the context of clean eating, I've heard you also, Tom, about what's called a plant forward diet. I've heard plant based. I've never heard plant forward before. So talk about that. Is this is this the diet within the confines of clean eating that you personally subscribe to and would recommend to your patients or anybody that you're talking with this in in this arena?

Guest [00:18:19]: That plant forwards a very broad term. some people use the word plant focused, plant forward, plant predominant, plant oriented. You could swing it any way, but basically what it means is that plants are more the centerpiece. So of what you're eating and that would be vegetables, fruits, nuts, grains, seeds, legumes, and, in the grain department, the healthy whole grains as as opposed to the, you know, processed grains, but people who are plant forward can still eat meat and dairy. if they do that might be called flexitarian, but plant forward does not mean plant exclusive. There is a a subtype, you know, veganism would be eating only plants and no animal products. However, vegans which are about 2% of the US population generally do it to save the planet, save animals, and less often for health reasons. So there's a lot of junk food vegans out there. probably the epitome of diet, in my opinion, and what I follow is a whole food plant based diet. So I'm avoiding animal products and focusing on whole minimally processed, you know, healthy, plant foods. for for all my needs.

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Finn Melanson [00:20:55]: talk for a moment about the general macro nutrient needs of runners and whether or not a plant forward diet can successfully meet all of the needs in these categories because I think one of the first things that comes to mind for me, and again, just hearing conversations in our community, seeing what I see on social media, one of the biggest constraints in this arena of diet is, for example, protein needs in this idea that maybe not all proteins are made equal and there's deficiencies when it comes down to, like, animal protein versus plant protein. So I know I said a lot there, but, talk about what goes into all that.

Guest [00:21:33]: So the the macronutrients are pretty straightforward. You have carbohydrates, fats, protein, and alcohol. I think we'll leave alcohol out because presumably are hopefully most runners are not too into the alcohol. you know, there are some diets Mediterranean diet in particular. We're having a glass of red wine now and that is considered beneficial, but beyond that, hopefully, not too much alcohol. So we can start with carbohydrates which are the energy source and should be the predominant source of calories in a healthy diet for runners, probably about 60% of the calories and this should be whole carbohydrates, whole grains, the stuff that has fiber. So whole wheat flour, not white flour, whole wheat pasta, not traditional pasta. ancient grains, so quinoa, or buckwheat or spelt, there are lots of of terrific whole grains that that we can have, not multi grain, but whole grains. and those carbohydrates are loaded with fiber and they really prolong health in terms of your overall mortality, heart disease, and longevity. the 2nd category would be the fats. and we all need fats. Runners need fats. About 20, 30% of their energy should come from fats and typically the polyunsaturated monounsaturated fats, not the saturated fats in in animal products, in animal protein, or where she had the trans fats, omega threes are a big source of fats in a healthy plant diet and that helps your cells function, your brain function. It delays, muscle soreness after running, promotes recovery, and is anti inflammatory. I think as you mentioned, Fin, the biggie is the protein. And for runners, that's key. what really fills us up when we eat is not fat. It's protein. The key source of feeling full and satiated after meal is getting enough protein. So The protein can come from animal products typically meat, fish, dairy, or things like whey or casein, or it can come from plant products most often the legumes, such as the chickpeas, lupini beams, red beams, black beans, lentils, soy products, etcetera. And there's this horrible misconception that, well, if I'm an athlete, I have to have animal pro That plant protein just doesn't cut it. That's been debunked in literally hundreds of studies and dozens of what are called systematic reviews, meta analyses where they analyze other studies, plant and animal proteins are absolutely equivalent for athletic performance, for endurance activities, for, all aspects, of athletes, whether it's runners or any other sport. and we see vegan overachievers, in in all sports, not not just running. So You can get your protein from whatever you want, but a diet that is about 50, 60% carbs, healthy whole carbs, 20, 30% fat, and maybe 20%, 25% protein, ideally, as much plant protein as possible, which has fiber and no saturated fats, excuse me, would be ideal.

Finn Melanson [00:25:19]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. are are are you still getting a full amino acid profile in plant based protein? And does the answer to that question even matter in terms of meeting athletic needs?

Guest [00:25:31]: Well, it it it the amino acids matter. They're key. They're the building blocks and We have 9 essential amino acids and 11, meaning your body cannot make them and 11 essential, nonessential that your body can make. So there's 20 total. And in order to have muscle protein synthesis and repair, you need to get all of the essential amino acids in in particular as well as the nonessential. Every plant food has all 20 amino acids. every plant food has every amino acid in different ratios. there was a myth years ago that you had to balance them out So if you had some beans, you had to have some brown rice to mix with it to balance out the protein. That's nonsense. the amino acids that you eat circulate in your blood for about 24 hours. So as long as over a 24 hour period, you're eating a variety of different plant proteins and sources, you're fine. You don't have to worry about mixing, matching, measuring which amino acid you're getting or otherwise. The last point there, Fin, is that there are things called digestibility scores for protein, which largely came about in the animal context, animal agriculture, and protein for animals, and using these indices, you do tend to see a little less digestibility with plant proteins, even the best ones like like soy products compared to animal proteins like whey or KC milk protein. It's a small difference. most people feel it's not very meaningful in humans But for people who are concerned, you can simply maybe up the plant protein by about 10% over the animal protein if you worry about the adjustability issues.

Finn Melanson [00:27:25]: One other question I wanted to ask you on the macro nutrient front is just we're seeing the, emergence of these exogenous ketone supplements for runners lately, and a lot of these companies starting to market ketones as a macronutrient. Is that an accurate depiction to consider ketones and a a macro nutrient in, like, the food pyramid?

Guest [00:27:45]: Well, to my knowledge, the macronutrients are the you know, the protein fat carbs and alcohol, I suppose the ketones can be some derivative of of the fats, but I think it's more marketing than than evidence based and, you know, the these products You know, I think people are always looking for the magic shortcut and rather than eat healthy whole food plant based, which can be golf or even plan forward. If you travel a lot, it's much easier to take a pill and say, okay, I'm taking this supplement. Now I could eat what I want. I'm I'm gonna do great. I would urge people exploring those things to look for the real evidence behind it, which I suspect is sorely lacking in terms of real medical research showing benefits. you know, if the claims are supported by the FDA, the food and drug administration, and, you know, the company itself that's selling it, I'd also be very cautious of side effects. all these a keto based diets and it's interesting that keto based diet came about to treat childhood epilepsy that was the original use for it. It it came about decades ago when they found it was pretty effective for for childhood epilepsy that wasn't controlled. by by medications, not so much for adults, and there's been tons of randomized trials where people take these diets Almost universally when you put people on a real keto diet within months, they're off because they just can't tolerate all the side effects, the the fatty stools, the indigestion, the upset stomach, the nausea, they're quite difficult to tolerate for long periods of time. they are good for losing weight because you're avoiding some of the processed refined foods and baked goods but for long term performance. I'd be very cautious and skeptical and really be wary of adverse effects and seek out any evidence on efficacy, which is probably limited beyond the manufacturer's claims.

Finn Melanson [00:30:02]: Yeah. And and most of the listeners of this show are training and racing for road 5 k, 10 k, half marathon, marathon events, but and and perhaps you can debunk this or clarify some of the discussion around it, but we we have talked with a few ultra runners before that are running these 12, 20, 30 hour events. And a few of the successful ones have been on that low carb, high fat regimen, And part of the value proposition they're communicating to us is that, it's made their their quote unquote engine more more reliant on fat than glycogen, and it sort of burns slower. And it gives them more distributed, even energy throughout the event. and they don't experience that same, quote unquote, bonk later in races that runners that are more dependent on glycogen do in their diet and during races. So I don't know if you have any thoughts there, but that's just one thing that we've heard in the field anecdotally that Whether or not it's true, I I think it's interesting to consider.

Guest [00:31:06]: So I think the keyword in your last sentence there was anecdotally. in that, you know, I started by saying I'm I'm an evidence based person. I like to see real research to support what I'm doing. but even with the best evidence, we're talking about averages, and averages don't apply to everyone. And I'm sure there are some Ultra runners who's physiology or maybe it's placebo effect. I don't know. They they do better on this keto type, you know, ketone Diet, very, you know, high fat, low carb, it works for them, whether it's working physiologically or causing a placebo effect or some combination. I don't know, but if it works for them, you know, terrific. Do it. I think making a statement that on average for all Ultra runners, this type of diet would be beneficial is a bit, bit of a stretch. but I I certainly have no objection to people trying things. And if in their particular situation, they find it works. Great. but I think it's very different if you wanna make a recommendation or give people advice on, you know, things that are evidence based and what might be the safest soundest thing for them to do.

Finn Melanson [00:32:26]: I was talking to a representative from one of the prominent gel companies in our sport, and they were just talking about how a lot of the philosophy around calories per hour in training or racing is starting to change from, like, 200 to 250 calories an hour more towards a focus on how many grams of carbohydrate are you getting in per hour as a measure of, like, how much energy, you can utilize and erase stuff like that and also potentially recover faster post event or better post event. Do you subscribe to that switch and focus like they're describing, because I know you've talked a bit about, like, high carb versus low carb training and up racing. So where do you come down and all that?

Guest [00:33:12]: So let me preps it with a few words about the carbs and and the training. So, carbs, as I said, should be about 60%. of a of a runner's diet complex carbs and there's this concept of running high or running low running high would mean that you have some carbs on board when you run, and that's the way to do it. And that could be some simple carbs, 30 minutes before you run, something like some dates or a gel or or something very straightforward will be digested quickly. as opposed to running low, which means you're sort of running without carbs, maybe more on fat, so more even in just the fast state, which is which is not, optimal. As far as the, you know, the grams versus the calories, there's a great saying from Aristotle that you should never put more precision into a subject than the nature of that subject deserves. and I really get worried when people start putting degrees of precision into exactly how many grams of carbohydrates, you need. You need a chemistry degree to figure it out. I suppose it benefits the companies that that can thrive on this precision and market their products to fill a precision niche. but, no, I think it's common sense in that you want to fuel appropriately when you run, you know, something before if you have 2 or 3 hours, you can have a real meal with some protein and digest it. You've only got 30 minutes or 45 minutes. You want some simple cards. if you gotta go right out the door, you can take just some, essential amino acids it's with maybe a little caffeine that get into your bloodstream immediately and then, you know, fueling during the run, whether it's every 45, 60 minutes with hopefully some fairly healthy gel. Although the one exception to healthy carbs would probably be fueling during a athon or a long race where, you know, eating the simple stuff is fine. but no, I'm not a I'm not a big proponent of all these exact formula for how many amino acids you need and how many grams of carbohydrates you need, etcetera, etcetera.

Finn Melanson [00:35:30]: Coming back to the conversation on protein, I I have two questions for you here.

Guest [00:35:36]: I

Finn Melanson [00:35:36]: would love to get your prescription on how much protein runners need on a daily basis and whether the sources matter. So for example, like a powder versus a whole food source protein access. and then, b, also using protein during runs. What are your thoughts there?

Guest [00:35:55]: Yeah. Those are great questions. So the amount is pretty straightforward. The recommended daily allowance is 0.8 milligrams per kilogram. So a kilogram's about 2.2 pounds. So for rough estimates, we can divide that by 2 to get a per pound ratio. So if it's point 4 per pound, if you weigh a £150, they're you should get 60 grams of protein a day. That's the RDA recommended daily allowance which is based on nitrogen and fecal nitrogen and on sedentary individuals. So it's it's completely, irrelevant to athletes. So get that away. If you're an endurance runner or an athlete, you're gonna want about 1.2to1.4milligrams per kilogram per day. So That would be about a point 6 or point 7 per pound. So if you're £150, you're up around 90 to a100 grams per day of, protein. people who are Olympic athletes are really preparing for incredible ultra endurance events may go up to 1.8 or 2. you know, grams per kilogram, but beyond that, it's probably, not not helping you very much. as far as the source but before the source, I wanna talk about timing because this is something police early talked about in that you take in all this protein for muscle protein synthesis. Your body is turning over protein like crazy. Several times a year, every protein in your body is replaced, repaired, and and turned over, most frequently in the liver. the liver is a real gobbler of protein synthesis, like every day you're turning over protein there. In the mussels, it's every couple of weeks about 2 weeks that enter your joints tendons cartilage, it could be months. If you just have a trickle of protein, throughout the day, 10 grams here, 10 grams there, you'll never choose it all up. If you wanna stimulate muscle protein synthesis, At each meal, you typically wanna have at least 20 grams of protein. So 20, 25 grams per meal for 3 meals is an optimal way to get that protein into the muscles, into the joints, into the parts that need it as opposed to just the liver. If you're getting small amounts of protein, even if it adds up to 80, 90, or a 100 grams per day. So the timing there, is important. You asked about the source lot of studies comparing, people who are in general, plant forward or plant based vegetarians, vegans, versus omnibus, people who eat everything or eat lots of meat, in that broad sense in hundreds of studies, there's no difference in athletic performance, endurance, muscle strength, lean body mass, etcetera. drilling down a little more to the the actual plant versus animal proteins. Again, no difference ever been shown. in terms of athletic performance endurance, or, your lean body mass or muscle recovery. So you can do just fine with plant proteins, but sometimes you have to rely a little more on some of the supplements than you do with animal proteins because it's there's, you know, to eat enough animal to eat enough plants, to get that protein would be would probably be difficult in the day if you're looking to get a higher intake.

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Finn Melanson [00:40:48]: Is there such a thing as, oh, well, actually, I wanted to ask you first, how about protein during a run? We're starting to see some of these companies market like, 3 grams of protein in each of their energy gels because there some of them are saying there's research showing that, like, you're starting that recovery process somehow mid run and it's getting you ready for the next run faster. What are your thoughts there?

Guest [00:41:11]: From from everything, I've seen Finn, it's it's very controversial as to the benefit if any of taking in protein during the run. And and certainly 3 grams here and there is is not gonna make much difference. And to digest it during a run would be exceptionally difficult unless these are coming in the form of the essential amino acids. you know, there are supplements that that are essential amino acids and those go right into your bloodstream. with you can take those 10, 15 minutes before I run. I often do. We're working out. a lot of those have a maybe a 100 milligrams of caffeine as well. That gets into your system, but if it's just plant or animal based protein, it it takes about 2, 3 hours to digest so I can't see how a three gram trickle of of protein is going to accomplish anything in a in a supplement.

Finn Melanson [00:42:07]: I think we're gonna have a much larger conversation to hear about supplements for runners, but I think to close the book on on protein, is there such a thing as an over reliance on protein powders? Like, I was just looking at my cabinet before this conversation, and I think 60% of the way on a daily basis that I'm getting my daily recommended protein intake is through these powders from companies like MOMENTIS and NERLY and, I don't know, not athletic greens, but, like, companies that produce these protein powders, I'm getting them there. long term, is this problematic? Like, should I be reversing the ratios and maybe doing it, like, 90% from, you know, lentils and steak versus 10% from, you know, my aluminum jar of protein powder. Like, how do you think about all

Guest [00:42:54]: that? Well, certainly, you know, if you're eating animal foods, they're they're like a protein orgy, so it's usually not a problem, but with the canned foods, you know, the lentils, the legumes, the soy products are are some of the best specialized tempe, which also has the fiber. little tricks like beans, lupini beans. People don't know about lupini beans. They're a little Italian flat bean. You get in specialty stores. They have the highest density by weight of protein of any bean. A little less fiber than chickpeas. You have a half a couple It's a good 10 grams of protein and it's not very many calories and that they're quite tasty, lupiney beans. You wanna get as much of your protein from whole or minimally processed plant sources. And in that minimally processed thing, I would say something like peanut powder is a great source of plant protein. It's it's literally defatted peanut butter, which is very rich and protein inexpensive, easy to add to cereals or or sauces, very minimal peanut taste. You can get almond powder. almond butter, defatted, very rich in protein. Things like hemp seeds, hemp parts are a very healthy protein source also is loaded with omega threes and and good fatty acids. even flax seed is not so much the protein even nutritional yeast, 5 grams of protein and 2 tablespoons. So, you can also get into some of the protein is pretty healthy. Uh-uh brown rice protein. I'd be a little wary of some of the isolates like soy protein isolate or some of the satan products which are loaded with salt and very processed. So You know, the bottom line as much as you can from the legumes, the whole foods, the the minimally processed supplements, but I tend to shy away from these really processed protein powders that have all sorts of sweeteners which are often sugar alcohols in there and flavorings and other things, as opposed to some of the sources I just mentioned.

Finn Melanson [00:45:06]: If you had to create a Mount Rushmore for the most studied and effective supplements for runners. So, you know, things like yeah, not saying this is one of them, but like BCCAs or, you know, caffeine or creatine, whatever. Like, what would be on that mount rushmore and why?

Guest [00:45:29]: Well, it it would probably be a very empty mount rushmore because in the scheme of things, supplements are incremental as far as any, you know, performance. Uh-uh, I think getting enough sleep eating right, getting your protein, your carbs, your overall diet macronutrients, and lifestyle are far more important than supplements. but they do have a role. And, if we did have that hypothetical Mount Rushmar, caffeine would probably be the big one, they are followed closely by creatine.

Finn Melanson [00:46:06]: Just those

Guest [00:46:07]: 2. On the Mount Rushmore, yes. you know, caffeine is hundreds of studies showing that it boosts athletic performance, alertness, and runners, in almost all athletes. And, you don't need a lot. You can get it in the cup or 2 of coffee or maybe a 100 to 200 milligrams, 20, 30 minutes before you run. a lot of people will also take it during the run. There were some, you know, gels that are healthy gels that have caffeine added, and it's a good boost at the end. and the caffeine in those supplements typically does not work on your bowels the way the caffeine and coffee would. So it's a great thing. The caffeine, almost almost no downside, you know, creatine is found in muscle and they often call it the safe inexpensive, you know, healthy steroid, because it is safe and expensive and it it actually works very well. creatine is used to produce energy in your muscles mostly for short twitch for fast activities There's a lot of studies showing that 3 to grams to 5 grams per day will boost performance not just for burst activity and sprinting and power lifting, but also there's some reasonable data in rugby players and runners that that it does add to performance if you use it consistently. It's exceptionally safe. The only downside is you tend to put on about £4 or £5 of water weight once you start taking creatine. I've been using it for about a year and within a few weeks, I was £5 heavier in stayed there for the year. It doesn't go away. if you're a vegan or or plant based like I and you're not eating the usual sources of creatine, which are animal products, meat, fish, dairy, it's I think more important to get some creatine and then as you become a master's athlete above 40, you have something called sarcopenia, which is when your muscle starts to reduce in mass fairly dramatically after age fifty or sixty, and there's evidence that staying on creatine supplementation can particularly help older runners, prevent the sarcopenia.

Finn Melanson [00:48:33]: Is it true that there's an argument for injury prevention there that because creatine supplementation helps retain water weight, it can effectively, like, lubricate the joints, like the knee joint, for example, shoulder joints, stuff like that. And there's like a a possibility for just like healthier joints in the long run too?

Guest [00:48:54]: Yeah. The word there is possibility. I don't I don't think there's any definitive research that creatine has those, you know, benefits. the whole benefit of of of a more clean diet is that it's anti inflammatory. and your typical western diet, which is 70% ultra processed food, a lot of meat and and animal products, is pro inflammatory. It actually causes inflammation in your body. So your joints, your muscles, your recovery, everything will function best if your body is in an anti inflammatory state and another supplement would be taking omega 3 fatty acids those may have some real impact on your joint health, reducing inflammation, reducing the late onset muscle soreness, promoting recovery, So I think it's very important to take a full dose of omega threes, daily. You know, if you're not vegan, you can get that from fish oil. if you are vegan, you can get algae, supplements that have omega 3 or an interesting plant called Ahi Flower, AHI Flower that is the only known rich source of omega threes that doesn't require liver conversion in vegans, because if you eat a lot of flax and hemp seed and other vegetables which are rich and omega threes, it's in the form of ALA, alpha linoleic acid, which has to get metabolized in the liver to the omega threes that you use EPA and DHA and that's not a good process. Aji flower oil has steerer sonic acid which bypasses the liver and goes directly to, Ethiopia and EPA. So it's a good source for vegans. but I think those omega threes would accomplish more of what you were talking about. And one of the supplement in that category would be vitamin e. There's, good research. Lots of randomized trials and analyses showing interestingly that a low dose of vitamin e taking below 500 international units a day, I take a 400 once a day, really has an effect on muscle soreness in those metabolites that lead to muscle soreness such as creatine kinase, lactate dehydrogenase, myoglobin that using a low dose of this really reduces creatine kinase after exercise, particularly in athletes. So You know, I think putting it together, the formula is to have that plant forward diet with adequate protein space, throughout the day, appropriate meals, adding in those omega threes, using some creatine if if you want, and that's for men and women. I men and, a little caffeine and a vitamin e. You know, I think that's a great, very safe evidence based formula for anti inflammatory recovery and and good performance.

Finn Melanson [00:52:03]: One more question about creatine because I'm sure there are some people in the audience listening, when they heard you say there may be x percentage increase in weight gain due to supplementation, they may wonder is that detrimental to running performance in any way, shape, form? So how would you respond to that?

Guest [00:52:22]: I I don't know. from everything I've I've seen, it doesn't seem to affect performance, those extra. I think the benefits you're getting in terms of your muscles, your ability to produce ATP and and and use your muscles efficiently excels any effect of the of the water gain. but I don't know. you know, someone is really trying to ace a race and every pound counts and you gotta shed as much as you can that might be different, but I think for the average recreational runner looking to do their BQ or, you know, just do their best. I I I'd have a hard time thinking it it makes a performance difference. It it certainly hasn't for me in my in my running. I don't think I if anything, I've, been getting better since I started doing that.

Finn Melanson [00:53:20]: I guess maybe one more question on supplements. When we're really, really, really focusing on marginal gains, like the last 0.5 to 1% of potential or fitness or performance in a given event, are there any more supplements or are there a lot of supplements that ultimately come into play in terms of leverage for performance, or do you really actually kind of draw the line after caffeine creatine by many the omegas and everything below that is, like, suspect at best.

Guest [00:53:53]: Yeah. It's a good question. The evidence is clearly supporting the caffeine creatine, and the omega 3 vitamin e. you mentioned Branch Chain amino acids briefly for the BCAA's and evidence on that as far as enhancing performance is very sparse. There is some evidence that they can reduce delayed onset muscle soreness, particularly if you're not getting enough protein overall, they may have some extra effects in seniors or masters, but, they're expensive and, I don't personally recommend them. I have nothing against them, but don't recommend them. They're safe. other supplements that may add a little tweak. we hear about things like beet root, the nitrates, which theoretically can, help you, perform better. the evidence they is mainly for short activities less than 20, 30, 40 minutes, not necessarily endurance running, and you'd have to eat it. ton of beets and a ton of beet root, and it's questionable whether the nitric oxide makes a difference. There's, ALA, is is another actually it's not ALA. What am I thinking of beta alanine is the other one that that's gotten some attention for very short activities, you know, power lifting, things that are less than a couple of minutes or even a few seconds. There there may be an effect of marginal effect, but not for runners necessarily. And the the last one you hear about with some frequency is, sodium bicarbonate, which again for burst activities maybe for runners. no. you know, I think if you're looking to really do better at the end of a race, there's pretty good research that shows if you smile. You'll go a few seconds faster. So I'd smile and think about all the money you're saving on these ineffective supplements at the end of the race, and that might get you a few seconds extra of performance.

Finn Melanson [00:55:56]: It's funny. You mentioned sodium bicarbonate. I know that there is that that topical sodium bicarb that's on the market you can take. I've seen a lot of rotor industry that. I'm a big trail runner myself, and there's this guy. His name's Killian Journey. He's one of the very best in the world. He was at this race last year called Ultra Trail Du Mont Blanc in Chamonte, France, and there was a photo of him at one of the aid stations drinking this soup like substance, and nobody could figure out what it was. His nutrition sponsor is a company called Morton, and it turns out it was this drinkable bicarb solution. And I was fascinated because he was taking it in an Ultra endurance event And I had always thought that bicarb was at best for these shorter burst fast twitch like events. So Is there a are have you ever seen any evidence that this could play out in, like, much longer settings like the marathon?

Guest [00:56:48]: No. I think that's all anecdotal. I mean, it gets back again to is there a harm? I I I suspect these supplements other than the cost to your pocket books such as the bicarb, the beta alanine, you know, the beet root products or the, you know, oxide products are fairly innocuous. unless you took exceptionally high doses or you know, poorly prepared preparations, you'd probably be fine. So other than the cost, there's probably no harm. Maybe it gives some people a placebo effect maybe it really helps some people because of their unique physiology. I don't know, but in general, it's it would be very hard to extrapolate that, you know, that that practice beyond the Ultra Runner, I think, that you just mentioned.

Finn Melanson [00:57:42]: two more questions for you before we go. I think I wanna bring the conversation back to where we started around lifestyle medicine and I think I'm curious. When you think about the leverage that nutrition can have in just improving our lives, etcetera, is it more about extending health span within a 70 to 80 year life, or are we talking about extending average life span as well where it's no longer, you know, the the upper high average is like mid eighties, but people are living into their nineties and 100 pretty reliably as a result. Like, what are your thoughts there?

Guest [00:58:20]: Well, life span is just how long you live, and you can live long and be miserable. health span is sort of living long without chronic disease or disability. So we're really looking to extend the the health span And, you know, I think it's pretty clear from work, like Dan Butner with the blue zones where he studied all these weird places with disproportionate veterinarians, people living old, you know, the key finding was a very plant forward diet, combined with natural lots of natural physical activity. importantly, a sense of purpose why you're on the planet beyond your own existence, how you're helping or benefiting others and a sense of community. those are important. There's even research showing that by switching from a typical western diet to more of a plant based healthy diet, you will extend your lifespan tremendously longevity. If you do it in your twenties, you can add up to 13 years to your life. Even if you wait till your sixties, research shows that you can add about you know, 10 years, 11 years to your life, even if you're real stubborn and wait till you're 80, you can pick up 3 or 4 years just from a healthy switch. So Yeah. It's about living long, living healthy, and, doing the things that facilitate that in addition to making us, you know, I think better runners and you know, preserving your brain function as well. That that's key here.

Finn Melanson [00:59:50]: Well, Richard, I've really enjoyed this conversation I've I've personally learned a lot, and I'm sure listeners have as well. Before we go, do you have any final thoughts? Any top that we didn't address that you do wanna make sure we address before we leave or do you have any calls to action for listeners as well?

Guest [01:00:07]: Well, there's a a saying from William Oster, an old physician that says common sense in medical matters is rare. and usually an inverse ratio to the degree of education. So, beware of very highly educated doctors, nutritionist, others who tell you silly things because if fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. I don't care how many people say it. Look at the evidence. you know, keep your common sense and, you know, look at the big picture. it's about eating right. It's about living long. The exercise getting 6 to 8 hours sleep a night, 7 is the sweet spot. If you sleep 9 or 10 hours or longer, you're killing yourself, don't do it. 6 to 8 is is the optimal, you know, moderation and drinking, you know, having some good social connections. They say that you're your general happiness is the average of the five people you hang around the most. So hang around, good company. and, you know, enjoy the journey. And hopefully, we'll all be sent inarians and Dan Boettner can, you know, interview his blue zones update.

Finn Melanson [01:01:34]: Thanks for listening to the run to the top pod guest. I'm your host, Finn Malansen. As always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. Please consider connecting with me on Instagram at wasatchfin and the rest of our team at Runners Connect, also consider supporting our show for free with a rating on this modify and Apple podcast players. And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content behind the scenes experiences with our guests and premiere access, to contests and giveaways, and subscribe to our newsletter by going to runners connect dot net backslash podcast. Until next time, happy trading.