Inside RunnersConnect: Founder Jeff Gaudette Talks Training Evolution, Strength Work, Future of Coaching

Finn Melanson [00:00:13]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn Melanson, and this is the Run to the Top podcast, a podcast dedicated to making you a better runner with each and every episode. We are created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Runners Connect founder and CEO Jeff Gaudette returns to the podcast, this time to chat on a variety of topics. Specifically, we discuss how his training methodology has changed in recent years, peak week training tips for races like the Boston Marathon, how to think about the nonrunning components of training like rest and active recovery protocols, why he is a strong, no pun intended, proponent of strength training, the benefits of online coaching and how runners connect is different from other options in the market, as well as his favorite running books and moments on the professional side of the sport. There's so much more we talk about. Tune in for an equally fun, engaging, and informative chat with our founder. Alright.

Finn Melanson [00:01:29]: We are here with the founder of Runners Connect, Jeff Gaudet. Jeff, how are you doing today?

Jeff Gaudette [00:01:35]: Great. Thanks for having me, Finn. I'm excited to chat with our audience again.

Finn Melanson [00:01:38]: Really excited to have you here. I was just telling you offline. I've I've sort of assembled a a grab bag of questions, miscellaneous, if you will. But I think all of them are valuable, and there's gonna be some great takeaways for the audience today.

Jeff Gaudette [00:01:49]: Yeah. I was having fun looking through them. Yeah.

Finn Melanson [00:01:51]: Yeah. The, the first question I have for you is around training methodology and just any changes that have come about in your personal approach to coaching, guiding athletes through this sport. What has changed for you, whether it comes to, like, strength training or, the x's and o's of, like, how to structure workouts or recovery? Like, if you if you think about the last 2, 3 years in particular, what have been the biggest revolutions in how you think about all this?

Jeff Gaudette [00:02:19]: Yeah. That's a great question. So I think for me, a big I think the focus that I've had or that I the big shift that I've seen in training methodology is just really a a really big focus on progression. And that coming from not only the training side, but really the strength training side. So, like, I think we did a really good job 10, 15, 20 years ago or whatever that may be of really understanding the benefits that strength training had when it comes to running into prevention performance, that kind of thing. And I think most runners understand that now. And I but I think what happened is we kind of got stuck in this idea of, like, just doing strength training to say you're doing it. And what I noticed was a lot of athletes, if you ask them, they would be just doing, like, the same routine over and over and over and over, like, you know, over either the course of the training cycle or just kind of throughout the year.

Jeff Gaudette [00:03:04]: And really understanding that we need to we need to have a progression when it comes to strength training just like we do with running. So, you know, when you start out your marathon training program or whatever it is, you don't just run the same mileage. You don't do the same workouts. Everything ideally increases week after week. And so same thing with the strength training. That's something that I have seen a big and and I've part personally focused on, like, a big shift over the last couple of years is really trying to understand where that happens. And another part of that comes also from the idea of lifting heavy. You know? So, you know, this shift maybe hasn't been in the last couple years, but, you know, understanding that when we do strength training as runners, we're not necessarily trying to improve our muscular endurance or, you know, those types of, aspects.

Jeff Gaudette [00:03:50]: Like, the things that are gonna help us most when it comes to strength training are adding resistance or adding weight. You know, being able to be more explosive, to handle more weight, those kind of things. And I think when when you bring that up, initially, I think a lot of athletes, especially runners, especially, like, our audience tends to be a little bit on the older side. And I think there's some hesitation there or some, that, you know, oh, I have to be huge and dead lift the gym and do these big squats and that kind of thing. And I think that's where the progression comes back in to play where it's not, you know, you're gonna immediately go to the gym and then start putting 240 fives on each side of the bar and be squatting. It's like, you know, we start you know, the idea is you start where you're at. Like, when we do our Flagstaff retreat, we, one of the speakers that we have is one of the strength coaches for a lot of the lead athletes in Flagstaff. And one of the things that he talks about and really made an impression on me was that, you know, when we think about a lot of the big compound movements I think about in run in strength training, like squat, deadlift, like, they are movements that we need to be doing in our life.

Jeff Gaudette [00:04:55]: Like, a deadlift is basically being able to pick something up off the ground. Right? And so I understand where when you first say it some to somebody, like, hey. We should be doing deadlifts. Like, there's an intimidation factor there. Like, oh my god. Like, deadlift. That's a that's a power lifter type movement. But when we really think about what a deadlift is, it's lifting something off the ground.

Jeff Gaudette [00:05:15]: Right? And so if you're not able to do that, then obviously there's a something there's a bigger issue there than just when it comes to running if, like, you're not able to lift something off the ground. And so that's kinda the idea there. So I think those things are kinda combined where just the idea of strength training being, a, need to focus more on progression, and b, needing to focus more on lifting heavy and increasing that progression week after week and not just same stale workouts, 15 to 20 repetitions, you know, that kind of thing. So

Finn Melanson [00:05:43]: And I think you addressed it pretty well, but I'm sure there there there were plenty of people in the audience when they initially heard what you had to say, when they heard, like, progression in a strength training setting. One of the first things that pops to mind for them is, oh my gosh. Like, is my body gonna change to the extent that it's no longer optimized for running and it's more optimized for, like, this, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger esque bodybuilding environment. But I but I'm sure you would say that's not the case.

Jeff Gaudette [00:06:10]: No. Absolutely not. So I totally definitely understand that. I think everybody always equates, like, more lifting or heavier lifting will equal more muscle and looking like bodybuilders. But that actually is more of a case of the, probably, your nutrition. So, like, if in order to gain weight, you pretty much have to eat more calories than you burn. And if when we're talking about most of the running population, like, that's very difficult to do. So if you're doing your running on top of your strength training and then you're just cognizant of your nutrition, it's very unlikely that you're gonna be putting on significant weight because you need to be in a huge calorie surplus in order to to do that.

Jeff Gaudette [00:06:50]: You know? And then there's and on the flip side of that too, like, you know, I think non runners or, like, people in you know, like, when we read articles on, like, Shape Magazine or whatever in, like, the newsstand, you know, you see, like, oh, how to tone your muscles and all that kind of stuff. Like, toning you you can't tone muscles from strength training. Like, working them out, you tone muscles by theoretically losing fat. Right? And so, it's the same to be it's kind of the opposite of gaining muscle gaining or doing strength training is gonna help you gain weight. It's kinda they're kind of the same idea. Really, it comes down to nutrition. So as long as you're not eating like a bodybuilder, like, you know, eating 200 grams of protein a day and, you know, being in a 500 calorie surplus per day, like, you're probably very unlikely that you're going to, a, gain weight, and, b, gain enough muscle to look like a bodybuilder. So unless that's your goal.

Finn Melanson [00:07:43]: Right on. Well, another topic. You know, we are recording this in early March, so roughly 5 or 6 5 or 6 weeks away from the Boston Marathon. Although I feel like this question could be relevant because at any point in time, a runner could be 5 to 6 weeks out from a goal race. At this point in a training cycle, what do you see as the most common mistake that athletes will make, and what's the best way to correct it?

Jeff Gaudette [00:08:10]: Yeah. So great question. So I think the most common mistake athletes make is pushing it too hard. You know? So at about this time out, 6, 7 weeks out, most athletes are gonna be in the deepest part of the training, whether it be marathon, half marathon, whatever the distance is. Like, this is probably the big these are gonna be your higher list highest mileage weeks, your high hardest workouts, that kind of thing. And there's a tendency to kinda feel like, okay. Now I have to kinda go all out. Like, I guess a related mistake is, you know, every workout has to be some, some way to prove that you are ready to go on race day.

Finn Melanson [00:08:49]: Right.

Jeff Gaudette [00:08:49]: And that's not the case. You know, even 6, 7 weeks out, like, there's still a lot of room to go, especially when in the marathon, like, you're training super, super tired. And so your performance in your workout isn't gonna be indicative of what you're gonna be able to do on race day. But a lot of runners will still try to force the fact because they need to prove to themselves in their mind, like, I'm fit, I'm gonna be able to hit my goal on race day, I need to be able to run x miles at marathon pace, you know, etcetera, etcetera. And a lot in that in the what happens there is then you start training too hard, you start pushing your workouts too hard, trying to prove to yourself that you are going to be fit in on race day. And that's, you know, you have to just trust the training and trust that in 6, 7 weeks time when you're tapered and you're recovered, you know, all that kind of stuff, like, you're gonna be ready to go.

Finn Melanson [00:09:36]: This is the perfect segue because the next thing I was gonna ask you is how you gauge whether you are, for example, training easy enough between key sessions. And so how do you gauge that?

Jeff Gaudette [00:09:48]: Yeah. So that is I would say the the further you go up in distance, the harder that is to judge. Because with the marathon and to some extent the half marathon, and even the ultra, like, there is part of the training is being in a concentrated state of fatigue. Like, that is just part just as what's comes with the training. And so it's really difficult to determine, like, what is just the normal training fatigue when it comes to longer distances and what is pushing it too much. You know? And so to me, I think a good way to be able to to be able to tell is is if you go out and you do your workouts and you're at least finishing, at least able to finish the volume. So, like, if I would tell people if you're able to finish the volume, maybe not necessarily hit all the paces, etcetera, then I would say that you're probably on track when it comes to that tight rope walk between recovered or the normal training fatigue and being overtrained. You know, paces are gonna come and go.

Jeff Gaudette [00:10:50]: A lot of it will depend on, you know, just how kinda how you're feeling that particular day, outside outside factors, etcetera. But, like, as long as you're able to get in the volume, then for the most part, I I would say that that's a good indication that the athlete is at least on track and whatever they're experiencing is a normal part of the normal fatigue of the training cycle.

Finn Melanson [00:11:11]: If I'm wrong, please correct me, but I was reading the other day, about proper, like, intensity during workouts and associated recovery. And one of the takeaways that the author wanted readers to have was that if you can't recover pretty much fully within 48 hours of a key session, whether it's like a VO 2 workout or a tempo or a long run, you've probably run that session too hard, and that's a good indicator. Is that something you would agree with, or would you challenge that at all?

Jeff Gaudette [00:11:44]: I would I would say, yeah. I would be pretty close to agreement with that. I would say that actually, funny enough, the recovery times actually take longer for the shorter distance stuff. So, like, VO 2 max speed workouts, those actually despite them being usually shorter, a lot shorter in terms of total volume, the intensity is so high that those generally take 48, maybe 3 day, you know, maybe 3 days there. But the longer stuff, generally speaking, because the intensity is less, the recovery should be a little bit, faster. So I would def I would agree with that. I think if you're not, you know, borderline fully recovery fully recovered by after 48 hours, you're probably the intensity of the session was probably too high. Because the other thing that balances that is that, you know, with marathon, half marathon training, generally speaking, the volume that you're doing in between your harder workouts is gonna be higher.

Jeff Gaudette [00:12:39]: So so with shorter distance, you're gonna the volume is gonna be less, so you're gonna just build in more recovery time. So, yeah, I would say that's a pretty good, you know, way to look at it.

Finn Melanson [00:12:50]: When a lot of runners think about the recovery days or the off days that a coach will insert into their training plan, they'll think, great, this is an opportunity to stay as horizontal as possible, watch Netflix, sit in a chair all day, whatever, but just not really be active. You might challenge this and say that there is a lot of science out there that advocates for a more active recovery day for runners and how that can facilitate more adaptations and training. What more can you say about that?

Jeff Gaudette [00:13:18]: Yeah. So that's 100% factual. You are going to recover better if you involve movement in some way. And that could be, you know, all kinds of different stuff. It could be stretching. It could be, like, foam rolling. So some type of, like, myofascial release. It could be even just a walk, is is can be beneficial to recovery.

Jeff Gaudette [00:13:38]: You know? And the reason is that when we when we look at recovery, what we're trying to do is we're trying to deliver nutrients to our muscles. That's how they recover. And the way to deliver nutrients inside the body is through the blood. And how do we get the blood? You know, how do we increase blood flow or how do we make sure that blood is getting to the muscles? We need to move them. So, you know, as long as it's not, any type of movement that is either too difficult or inducing some type of stress, then it's gonna help in recovery. That said, there is some mental benefit too of taking, like, a a day of, like, you know, like, just horizontal, like you said, you know, like, not doing anything. So there's some balance there. I would say that as long as mentally you're feeling fresh and comfortable, then some type of active recovery is going to be better than doing nothing.

Finn Melanson [00:14:29]: What is your origin story about, just being so enthusiastic about strength training for runners?

Jeff Gaudette [00:14:36]: You know, it just comes from my own, probably, mistakes that I made in my training and, like, thinking about the things that I could go back and change. So, like, I guess I'll start with the story. Like, you know, I went to a high school that was, like, super football dominant. You know? Like, it was every Different. Football that, yeah, a bit different high school. And so there you know, being in the weight room was just like, if you were quote, unquote, the jock, you know, if you were an athlete in high school, like, you went to the weight room. So I you know, from a young age as when I was, like, a freshman, you know, the first thing you did is go in the weight room. In any case, the type of strength training that you do for football and those types of things are obviously very different than the types of strength training that we want to do for running.

Jeff Gaudette [00:15:18]: And so I would I I maintained doing strength training throughout my entire running career. The problem was that I never really did anything that was really specific to running. Like, I just took the lessons that I learned from, you know, football and then, you know, there's not you know, back then, there were no magazines like, Runner's World of, like, here's the strength stuff you can do. I was reading, like, Body Builder Magazine, Men's Health, or whatever it was, like, those types of knowledge to inform my strength training. And so I look back at it and I think, man, I I had I suffered from so many issues that would have been drastically improved had I just done the run right type of strength training. Like, if I had focused on improving my hip strength. Like, if I look at my stride, I can see that there's a severe weakness in my hips and it causes my leg to splay out. Like, when I run, my foot kinda splays out.

Jeff Gaudette [00:16:10]: Not only is that super inefficient, but it also causes a lot of lower lower limb stress, which was almost always where my injuries were, plantar fasciitis, a calf, Achilles. And so those types of things, like, instead of going to the weight room and doing shoulder presses and, you know, even bench presses, stuff like that, like, obviously, it would have been way more beneficial for me to get in the weight room and do hip strength work. Yeah. Or if I was doing squat stuff, it was, you know, all lightweight, you know, high rep, you know, would have been so much better served by actually having a strength training program that would have benefited me. So that's, you know, the long way of saying, like, I look back at what I was doing and I say, man, I wish I would have been I wish I would have had the knowledge that I do now and been able to apply that to my past self because it would have made such a huge difference in in my training. And, hopefully, you know, the mistakes that I made are now at least, able to help other runners not make the same mistakes.

Finn Melanson [00:17:06]: It's interesting because you were obviously a part of some of the most storied running programs in the country throughout your career, including, like, Hansen's distance. Was that not a priority at programs like

Jeff Gaudette [00:17:17]: those? Yeah. So funny enough, yeah. At Hansen's, a 100% no. They maybe something has changed, so I, you know, I haven't been there in 10 years or so Yeah. Maybe more. But at that time, there was definitely no emphasis on strength training and pretty much a belief that it wasn't necessarily needed. I would say too, you know, I worked with Scott Simmons who, is the coach of the army army development project, and a couple Olympians. And at the time as well, the focus on strength training was very minimal.

Jeff Gaudette [00:17:50]: So we did some strength stuff, like your basic core, some low some leg stuff, but nothing, like, super integrated. Not like it is today. You know? Like like I said, when we go on our Flagstaff retreat, we go and see doctor Greg who works with all the athletes. And looking at what they do now, it's, like, it's amazing how integrated the strength training is with their their running and how how different it is from anything that I ever did or in any of the big groups that I was a part of. Like I said, I think some of the groups are changing now, but definitely not when I was part of them.

Finn Melanson [00:18:25]: I'm sure there's a lot of people listening who are preparing for, like, half marathons and marathons, but I'm also curious to know if there are different demands from a strength training perspective for athletes that are running different distances. So, for example, if somebody was getting ready for a 5 k versus someone that was getting ready for a marathon, would they have drastically different strength programs, or would they be more or less the same?

Jeff Gaudette [00:18:51]: Yeah. So in an ideal world, yes. They would be what I consider fairly drastically different. So when we look at shorter distances like 5 k, 10 k, the the strength that's gonna benefit you the most are kind of like explosive strength training stuff. So that includes plyometrics, but also heavyweight stuff, squats, dead lifts, those kind of things. Those are gonna be on the most helpful side. When it comes to longer distance events, marathon, etcetera, a lot of what's gonna be most helpful then so everything applies still applies, but I'm talking kind of where you shift your focus. Marathon and half marathon are gonna be stuff that's a little bit more injury prevention and a lot and, basically, anything that's gonna enable you to maintain proper running form later into the race.

Jeff Gaudette [00:19:35]: So a lot of that's like core, hip, you know, those types of things. So you don't necessarily need quite as much focus on explosive strength, etcetera, when it comes to the marathon, but you're gonna need a lot more focus on hip strength, core strength, you know, the ability to maintain proper running form at miles 21, 22, 23. You know, that's gonna be a better bigger benefit to your performance than, you know, getting being a little bit more explosive, that kind of thing. Whereas you don't necessarily see that quite as much in the 5 k. You know, your form doesn't fall apart quite as much. You know, those things are still important, but you're gonna get a bigger bang for your buck by doing stuff that's a little bit more

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Finn Melanson [00:22:21]: Go to timeline nutrition.com and use promo code runners connect for 10% off the plan of your choice. I've heard some coaches in the past, especially when they're talking about incorporating strength into, you know, your weekly training program to make your hard days hard. So if you are gonna hit the gym, you're gonna hit the weights, You would ideally do them on a day where in the morning, you do, like, your interval session or your tempo session, and then in the evening, you go and hit the gym. Is is that something that you would also advise your athletes as well? Or do you have a different take on when strength is incorporated into the week?

Jeff Gaudette [00:23:02]: Yeah. So 100%. In an ideal world, you should follow the hard days hard, easy days easy principle. You know, and just to give some the audience that's listening if they haven't heard about this before, you know, the background for why we wanna do that is if you think about let's say, you did your hard track workout on Tuesday. So Tuesday was obviously a difficult workload day and then on, let's say, on Wednesday, you wanted to do your strength training work. So Wednesday ideally should be recovery, but because you're adding in strength work, you're adding additional stress now onto running specific muscles, especially if you're doing any type of leg movements, things like that. So now that's another hard day that you've had in your training. So you went hard on Tuesday, and then maybe you went hard again on legs on Wednesday.

Jeff Gaudette [00:23:44]: And now, you know, let's say you work out again on Friday, then it really only leaves one day of, like, actual recovery before you do your next hard workout. So whereas if you were to do hard track session on Tuesday, hard into hard strength training that day as well, now you have 2 full days of recovery. Wednesday is a true recovery day rather than having it be something where you're doing something hard. So that's kind of the the science behind it to to make it simple. And so a 100%, I agree that's the best way to do it. Obviously, there there's a challenge there when it comes to a lot of the athletes we work with. Like, if you're just if you're not an elite, you're not a professional, you're not dedicating your life to running, and you've got work and family and all these other time constraints, it can feel like that suggestion of hard days hard, you know, doing your hard strength training day on the same day as your workouts is, like, impossible. But I think I I think the thing that people miss is that strength training with running doesn't need to be 30, 45 minute session in the gym.

Jeff Gaudette [00:24:44]: You can get a super effective strength training session in 5, 10, or 15 minutes depending on what you wanna focus on. And you don't need a gym. And even that said, you don't need a gym to do really effective strength work when it comes to your running. So I think if we if if you eliminate that part of it, then I think or the idea that, oh my god. This needs to take 45 minutes. Then I then it just comes down to, not necessarily I can't fit this in to dedicating yourself to fitting it in. So it could be obviously, doing it after your run-in the morning still. If you're if you're somebody that goes to work right after you run, etcetera, then you might not have time to get home.

Jeff Gaudette [00:25:22]: But that said, if you can dedicate a 30 minute block when you get home to doing some type of strength training, that's gonna be super beneficial. And I would bet most people have 30 minutes where they can, you know, get in their living room or get in a, like, a spare bedroom or something where they can do some type of strength work, only 30 minutes. It doesn't have to be you know? And again, even narrowing it down 15 minutes is, like, can be super beneficial because, I don't think you necessarily need to do 20 exercise. You don't need to do 20 different exercises. You can do 4 or 5 super effective, super beneficial exercises and have them be done in 15 minutes. So I think that's the the way to approach it when, athletes that we that I talk with get intimidated or just say, like, there's no way I can add that into my schedule on a on a workout day, is just to really think about making sure that they're just doing the the most effective exercises they need to be doing for for their strength work.

Finn Melanson [00:26:21]: One last question on the strength training topic. I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that they love running and they wanna maximize their time running as much as possible, but they're also wondering based on what you're saying, are there trade offs involved with strength training where in order to avoid injury risk or burnout from overtraining, I need to, like, remove one running session and bring in one strength session. What would you say to that? Like, are trade offs required here, or can you still log a lot of miles, a lot of workouts, and then add on top of that?

Jeff Gaudette [00:26:57]: Yeah. So I would say that you definitely can in the sense of do a lot of running and and add your strength for it. And a lot of it just comes down to the time that you have available and then how much of your life you wanna dedicate to running. And the answer to that question isn't right or wrong. It's it's individual for everybody. Right? But that said, you know, kinda getting back, I think, probably to the the the foundation of your question is that we don't it's better to, from a performance perspective, to sacrifice a mile or 2 of your mileage to get in strength work. And so that gets back to what I was talking about with, you know, being able to fit in your strength work on hard days is that strength work an effective strength training session can be 10 to 15 minutes. And if we think about 10 to 15 minutes, that's a mile, maybe 2 miles of running.

Jeff Gaudette [00:27:49]: And so if you are someone that says, I don't do strength work because I never I don't I absolutely have zero time. I guarantee you, you will get better results from your running if you 2 or 3 days a week, run a mile or 2 less during your easy days and do strength work instead, I I believe a 100% that you will you will improve faster and your performance will improve if you do that rather than run an extra mile or 2. Just, you know, we look at what an extra mile of easy running does over a course of a week. Like, that's minuscule, advantage to aerobic systems that those kind of things. Whereas when we talk if we talk about 10 or 15 minutes of, like, progressive strength work, that's huge in terms of, like, how it can prevent injury, how it can, how it can improve performance, that kind of stuff.

Finn Melanson [00:28:32]: Cool. Switching topics, I'm I'm sure listeners would be curious to know some a bit about your background and sort of the history of runners connect and sort of how it came to be. 1st question I have for you, it's pretty basic, but I think important. What made you wanna be a coach?

Jeff Gaudette [00:28:50]: You know, it's funny. I I just loved training theory since, probably since I started running. Like, I can't remember a time that I was running and didn't love the the theory behind, like, the workouts we were doing. And funny enough, that probably made me a super difficult athlete to coach. I think if I asked my coach I know if I asked my coaches, they would all say that I was difficult to coach because I love to question everything, I love to experiment, I love to read. And, you know, when I was in high school, you know, the the funny thing is back in those days, like, there wasn't really the Internet was just kinda starting. So, you know, I would just devour every magazine that I could and, you know, you read an article, like, about this type of workout. And funny enough, like, I'm a like I was just like a lot of the athletes that I coach.

Jeff Gaudette [00:29:37]: Like, I read something and I'm like, oh, I wanna do this, or what about this? And so I was just always enthralled by training theory. And, obviously, as I got older and then more experienced and then kind of as my own running started to tail off, I I naturally just transitioned into coaching because I loved, you know, I, a, I love working with people, and b, I love training theory. So it's it's an easy you know, transition to say, like, oh, I love putting together workouts and seeing how this goes. And then, you know, seeing the results from other people is pretty cool. So, yeah, it was a pretty pretty like, there's sometimes I think things in your life that happen that, like, you take a path in life, and it's not even a conscious choice. Like, I don't even feel like I consciously chose to be a coach. Like, it just kind of happened. Like, it was just like it just seemed so natural to be like, oh, I just love running so much, like, and I'm very knowledgeable about it, so, like, let me help teach that knowledge to other people.

Jeff Gaudette [00:30:34]: Like, it never was like a choice, like, oh, I wanna be a coach. It just it was just it felt like that's what it needed to be.

Finn Melanson [00:30:40]: So Well, and it makes me wonder because you mentioned, like, growing up, you were very self directed. You were very self motivated. Like, no one needed to tell you what to go read. Like, you were gonna go do it yourself. And it makes me wonder, like, when you think about the coach athlete relationship, what are the most important factors in your opinion that will predict a successful partnership between the athlete and the coach? Like, do you need the the same type of athlete and same type of coach to make it work? Is it different?

Jeff Gaudette [00:31:07]: No. I think I think the biggest thing comes down to, like, communication. I think that's the the critical piece. And because the athlete needs to be able to communicate to the coach, like, how they're feeling physically, mentally, and be and be able to be honest about it. It's funny because when we go to when we do our retreats, like, you hear a lot of athletes talk sometimes and they'll just be like, yeah. Like, I was gonna do this run. I didn't wanna tell my coach because I didn't want him to be mad at me for, like, doing this. And I'm like, you know, a a good coach would never be mad at you, you know, for doing something.

Jeff Gaudette [00:31:41]: He may tell you why that might not have been the most beneficial thing for you. But as a coach, like, as long as you're communicating, then you can say like, I look at it as as a coach then communicates to the athlete. Okay. This wasn't this is why we probably shouldn't have done that. But because this is where you're at now, then this this is these are your adjustments that we need to make with your training moving forward to make sure that we account for what you did. And so I think honesty and the communication needs to be on both ends. And I think no matter I I think for the most part, like, personality wise, like, as long as there's communication there, I think most coaches and athletes will get a will get along. Now that said, there are definitely some coaches that are a little bit more sciency, you know, that are like, oh, I want things like definitely, like, explicit.

Jeff Gaudette [00:32:25]: And then there are some athletes that are that really trend towards that, and then some athletes that want a little bit more flexibility in terms of, like, oh, I can I can run things based on how I feel? So there's definitely some personality traits there, but I think if you're communicating, that's the biggest the biggest element of a good coach athlete relationship.

Finn Melanson [00:32:43]: Do you think most coaches have a singular philosophy and regardless of the athlete, they're gonna try to mold that athlete into sort of what they believe? Or and is it important to kind of declare that type of stuff at the beginning of a relationship? Or have you found that with, like, most coaches out there, they'll kinda, like, go to the, you know, running methodology supermarket, evaluate the athlete, and, like, pick the one that's best for them?

Jeff Gaudette [00:33:07]: Yeah. So I would say that good coaches do not have a rigid philosophy, or at least so rigid that they make every athlete adapt to what they do. I think a part of being a good coach is understanding that you need to that you're coaching the athlete. You're not coaching us a lab rat or, you know, a research participant. You are coaching an athlete who has their own personality, has their own strength and weaknesses, etcetera. So I would definitely say a good coach will range more on the idea of they probably have an underlying principle or underlying philosophy of, like, what is the most important aspects of training, but there's a lot of different ways to get there. I think the really interesting thing about running and coaching running itself is that there really aren't any secrets. So, like, really, the the science is all the same.

Jeff Gaudette [00:34:02]: Like, no. I don't think any coach would, like, argue about, like, the science of, like, what it takes to become a good runner. Like, the physiological principles, those are all the same. Now, like, how you think the best way to get there can can certainly differ, but that's what I I think that's what makes coaching interesting is that we're all just we're all trying to get to the same spot and just doing maybe things a little bit different. So, and I think that's really cool when you look at the elite athletes. I think one of the problems in our sport is that athletes and coaches are so hesitant to to share their training and, like, exactly what they're doing. And I think that's I'm not sure where that comes from because there's you know, like, let's say, in Elite, somebody who set the, you know, the American record. Let's I'm using I'll use, like, Grant Fisher for an example.

Jeff Gaudette [00:34:54]: He still holds the American record. So, like, under looking at what Grant Fisher does, like, if I was a sub 13 minute 5 k guy, like, I wouldn't just go and copy Grant Fisher. And if I was his if I was a coach, I wouldn't just say, oh, I'm gonna look at exactly what Grant Fisher does, and I'm gonna do that too. Like, that's just not gonna work. So I that's why I don't understand, like, athletes and coaches aren't more willing to share exactly what their what their athletes are doing. I think it would make the sport a lot more fun and maybe broaden the audience if athletes and coaches were a little bit more open about the the training that they were doing. Because there's no there's definitely no secrets. Like, even, again, talking about something like Grant Fisher, like, he's doing the a lot of the exact same things that, like, I have the athletes that I coach do.

Jeff Gaudette [00:35:41]: Now they are at completely different levels, right, and we're at completely different goal sets, but, like, the physiological principles are all exactly the same. You know? It's just, you know, the paces and the volumes and that kind of stuff change, but, like, what we're after and how we get there are pretty similar. So, anyway, that's just probably a little bit of a tangent, but, yeah, I definitely feel like we're all after the same goal. Like, the the the physiological realities of what it takes to run fast at each race distance don't change. It's just how we get there.

Finn Melanson [00:36:12]: It's so interesting because you know this, maybe the audience doesn't, but I come more from, like, a trail running background. And for whatever reason, transparency there is a dime a dozen. Like, almost every single pro athlete with a few exceptions are there. They're logging everything, and you can work backward from a race like Western States or UTMB and know exactly what they did to get there. And it sounds like what you're advocating for is, like, if there was more transparency in the track and field space, the road space around how people, you know, prepared for a race like Boston or the Diamond League races, the sport would be better off.

Jeff Gaudette [00:36:46]: Yeah. 100%. I mean, I think I think it just it it leads to more you know, one of the part you know, now we're getting on a tangent, but I think one of the problems when it in the sport of running and when it comes to popularity is that there's just there's not a lot of opportunities and athletes don't do a great job of, like, putting themselves out there for for lack of a better word or term. And part of one easy way to do that is to be more open and share training a little bit more. I think I think that's just a super easy way for, to to grow the sport in popularity is just to be more aware of, like, what people are doing. And I think that's probably why the Trail community is probably it's a closer knit community and more popular in in a certain sense because it's just it's way easier to follow the people that you enjoy. Like, if you are a fan of distance running, and I'll use Grant Fisher for an example again, and I don't mean to I don't mean to pick it on just just the name that I'm coming up with. But, like, I could search and search and search, and I would have very little idea of, like, what Grant Fisher is doing on a on a micro level from training.

Jeff Gaudette [00:37:55]: Yeah. And if I was a fan, like, that's just disappointing. Like, whereas, in, like, in the trail community or ultra community, like, it's pretty easy to go and say, like, oh, I'm a big fan of

Finn Melanson [00:38:06]: Jim Walms.

Jeff Gaudette [00:38:07]: You know. Jim Walms ex and you know exactly what he's doing every day. You know? And so it just it's just a way better way to follow and and be a fan of an of an athlete rather than just, like, showing up having somebody show up for an event and run fast and be, like, oh, that was great, you know, and then disappear again for 3 months, you know.

Finn Melanson [00:38:26]: Yeah. Another one is, like, Galen Rupp. He's always sort of operated in in silence or mystery, and that's that's been difficult from, like, a fan creation standpoint.

Jeff Gaudette [00:38:34]: Yeah. I think I think it's I think most athletes are, you know, I I I use 1 or 2 examples of the athletes for my examples, but, like, I would say, 90% of elite athletes are like that. There's there are a few that puts everything on Strava, etcetera, but, like, not not as many as I think would help if increase the popularity of the sport.

Finn Melanson [00:38:54]: Yeah. What do you see as the pros and cons of online versus in person coaching? Because especially after the pandemic, this sort of became the norm. And unless you're fortunate to be in the same town as your coach or you're a part of a a training group like Hokan as Elite or Hansen's or Bowerman, it's it's hard to have that, like, very daily present one on one in person relationship. So what's your vision for, like, you know, this online format and what the benefits are?

Jeff Gaudette [00:39:28]: Yeah. So, you know, it it's interesting because I've been doing the online format since, like, 2010. So, like, I feel like I'm, like Pretty cool. Yeah. It's it's interesting because well, funny story, like, when the pandemic hit, like, people talking from, like, work from home. I'm like, I've been working home since, like, 2009. So, like, this is, like, the same for me minus my kids being home. But, anyway, you know, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about the benefits of or or I think people overestimate the ability for a coach to be there in person, like, what that actually provides.

Jeff Gaudette [00:40:06]: In my opinion, like, there's very little a coach can do in person that they can't do online. You know, especially nowadays, like, it used to be like, oh, you you can't see me run. I'm like, yeah. But nowadays, it's super easy for you to take a video of you running. And if even if I was gonna do a video video analysis of you, I wouldn't just watch you on the track and then just say, oh, we need to watch do x, y, and z. Like, I would videotape you and then I would, you know, put it in our software and look at every you know, look at all the data points and all that kind of stuff. And so, like, those types of things, like, everything they're very, very little that a coach can do in person that they can't do online. I would say that the only thing that you can probably do in person is adjust the workout on the fly.

Jeff Gaudette [00:40:47]: So if an athlete is struggling with the workout and either not hitting their paces or just doesn't look like they're where where you want them to be, then it's easier for a coach to step in and say, hey, let's adjust. You know? Whereas an athlete, you know, I would say that's the only drawback. Even as a coach, like, I can tell athletes, hey, if you're not hitting these paces or if you don't you should be feeling, like, effort level of 7 to 10 7 out of 10 here. If it's too hard or too easy, then feel free to adjust. But sometimes athletes have a hard time self regulating. Whereas when you're, like, at the workout with them, like, it's a little bit easier for a coach to say, hey. Let's back off here. It's totally okay.

Jeff Gaudette [00:41:31]: Like, kinda calm the athlete down. But, like, other than that, I can't really see, like, where being in person has this, like, huge advantage over being online. So I think and I I think you're seeing that now even with elite athletes, like, a lot of the groups are spread out all over the place, where even the coaches, maybe they have, like, a home base for the athletes, but then they're the athletes are training at altitude at some specific spot, or they have a c level and altitude level home base kind of thing. And so, because, again, it gets back to the communication part. Like, if the athlete can communicate to you as a coach, like, how they're feeling, how it went, and be honest about it, then the coach has all the data, especially nowadays, where I would say maybe, yeah, like, in the early 2000s when there was no things such thing as, like, a GPS or, you know, whatever, like, nowadays, I can get I can get more data than I can ever need need to know what to do with from all of the wearables and all that kind of stuff. And so, the data is not a problem. Being there in person isn't a problem. So, yeah.

Jeff Gaudette [00:42:40]: Sorry. My cat's in the background. I think you can probably hear her.

Finn Melanson [00:42:42]: I also have a cat that might hop up on the table at any time here. You know, you were talking about some of the Flagstaff training camps that Runners Connect hosts and others like it, and it reminded me there has to be some point of differentiation in this online world. What do you what would you say makes Runners Connect different from other online coaching programs?

Jeff Gaudette [00:43:04]: Yeah. It's a great question. So I think for us, it's it comes with and this is this is speaking generally. Like, obviously, there's a lot of different coaching programs, etcetera, out there. But I think what makes us different and that we've really worked hard with over the last, like, 4 or 5 years is we try to be a comprehensive solution to training. So it's not just, here are your workouts, go run them. Right? So it's obviously, we do the customized workouts, etcetera, which a lot of people do, but it's also the the ability to get feedback to adjust the training. It's the the fact that we put in, that we include the strength work as part of the running.

Jeff Gaudette [00:43:40]: So it's not just like, oh, go find some strength training stuff on YouTube or, like, here's, like, a generic plan. It's like, you're doing the marathon. Here is our marathon progression of strength work starting out where you're at, where we wanna be, etcetera. Same thing with stretching, nutrition. Like, all of those things are, like, included in as part of the training holistically rather than just saying, here are your workouts, you know, kinda go do them kind of thing. So I I I that's what we've really focused on over the last 4 or 5 years is just trying to make things more holistic. And that even comes with understanding that training isn't just about the 12 to 16 weeks of your marathon, half marathon, 5 k, whatever training block. Like, your training and improvement happens over the entire course of the year over a couple of years period.

Jeff Gaudette [00:44:25]: So, like, what you do in between races is just as important as the training that you're doing during your race. So, yeah, I would say that those are 2 things that probably help us stand out.

Finn Melanson [00:44:35]: Very cool. Couple miscellaneous fun questions before we close-up. You mentioned earlier in the conversation that you are an avid reader, especially when it comes to sort of training methodology, etcetera. I'm not trying to direct the answer this way, but, like, what is the most interesting running related book you've read recently and why?

Jeff Gaudette [00:44:56]: I would say recently. I'm not sure that I've run read anything recently. Trying to think. I would probably say well, I think personally on a personal level, like, Desi's

Finn Melanson [00:45:10]: could be research too.

Jeff Gaudette [00:45:11]: Yeah. So what I would say, like, on a personal I would just say more than maybe this is more like personal level. Like, I I think Desi Desi Linden's book was really interesting only because, like, I knew Desi. So, like, it was probably the first time I ever read a book and, like, knew the person. So that was, like, a really interesting read because I yeah. I'd never had that experience of, like, reading biographies before where, like, I actually knew the person. And so, like, that was really cool. That was an interesting read because, like, I had my ideas of, like, especially the the time period that she talked about, like, when I knew her, like, when we were both at Hanson's together.

Jeff Gaudette [00:45:47]: It was really interesting to reflect back on, like, my thoughts of, like, what was happening then and, like, what she was going through. So, like, that was pretty that was just a a unique, I think, reading experience.

Finn Melanson [00:45:59]: What has been your favorite moment in professional running to either witness in person or watch remotely over the last 10 to 20 years and why? What's been one of those? I'm sure there's a lot.

Jeff Gaudette [00:46:12]: Yeah. There's there's a lot. So I'll give you I'll give you a couple. I'll give you 2. So the first was actually Ryan Hall, when I was in high school, ran at the, Bowdoin Bowdoin used to put on a high performance meet in, like, early early summer, and I forget what it was called, but that was the first time I'd ever seen, like, professionals run. And I went I think maybe my junior, senior year in high school I went to that and watched, and that was jaw dropping to me. Again, this is back in the days, like so I graduated high school in 2001 or 2,000 2001. So, like, again, the Internet was really just kinda getting started, and, like, we got all like, the only thing we got was, like, Track and Field News was the hard car the hardcover magazine.

Jeff Gaudette [00:46:58]: Like, I would read that thing cover to cover and, like, I would probably read it once or twice a day like, probably once or twice a week. You know? I'd read in the library at school. I would I had it at home, and I just would read and read and read, and there was a picture. Anyway, I'm just, now I'm, like, waxing poetically, but, like, you know, we didn't have we didn't have video of, like, people running for the most part. And so, like, to see that in person was, like, really cool. And then the other one, it was probably, Dathan Rissenhayn, when he first broke 13 minutes in the 5 k. I can't remember what year that was, but he ran, like, 1258 or something like that. And to me, like, from a I think from an American distance fan perspective, like, that was, I think, a big a big thing to drop.

Jeff Gaudette [00:47:42]: And the same thing when Chris Alinsky ran sub 27 in the 10 k. Those are very similar. Like, that was, like, a huge step forward from an American distance running fans' perspective of, like, wow, Like, somebody actually did it. Like, that was pretty cool. Now it's, like, commonplace, but Everyone's breaking 13. Yeah. I mean, it's crazy. I mean, I look now at, like, what like, the times, it's like, oh my god.

Jeff Gaudette [00:48:05]: It's insane. But but those are the 2 where I was like, wow. That was really cool from a just a breakthrough perspective.

Finn Melanson [00:48:11]: Those are really good ones. Last question. You can take it any direction you want, but what are your goals for runners connect in the next 3 to 5 years and why?

Jeff Gaudette [00:48:22]: Yeah. So great question. For for us, like, we really wanna become a bigger and bigger resource for runners of all levels, and that comes from, really, from all platforms. So, the podcast, our blog, YouTube, that kind of stuff. Like, I feel like there's still, there's still a missing piece in the running industry when it comes to, like, highly actionable scientifically based information. I still think there's a gap there. I think there's we we have some awesome blogs slash articles, YouTube videos of, like, that are, like, super science, and then a lot that are really just light on the your your traditional, like, 5 ways to run a faster 5 k kind of stuff. And so I I I think I really wanna become, like, the middle of that where it's, like, super practical, research driven, like, content.

Jeff Gaudette [00:49:12]: So that's a big that's a big side of it. And then also from the training side of things, like, I think every year, like, Michael, who is the head coach of Runners Connect, like, we talk about every year, like, we just get so excited when we talk about, like, the ideas that we have, and I think a lot of it just comes down to, like, being able to, include more and more, like we talked about, ways to approach the ways to get people to where they need to be, whether that might be doing stuff with, like, Stride data, you know, Stride being the power meter stuff or more heart rate training. So, like, helping people get to the point that they wanna be in the best manner for them possible. And so that's what we get excited about, like, every time we talk about, like, how we what we're gonna introduce that might be able to help us get more and more people to the to the goals that they wanna achieve.

Finn Melanson [00:50:03]: Well, Jeff, it's been awesome to chat with you. Great to catch up. Do you have any final thoughts or calls to action that you wanna leave listeners with before we go?

Jeff Gaudette [00:50:15]: No. No. I'm gonna leave it I'm gonna leave it, kinda blank. You know, obviously, as as if you're listening to this podcast, you're a fan of Runner's Connect. Hopefully, you're, part of our training experience, but even not, we're love to have you as an audience. So, definitely and everybody can always feel free to reach out, to me at any time, jeff@runnersconnect.net. I'm happy to answer any questions that people have. So, just excited to be on the podcast and getting more and more people listening every week.

Finn Melanson [00:50:55]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm your host, Finn Melanson. As always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. Please consider connecting with me on Instagram at wasatchfin and the rest of our team at Runners Connect. Also consider supporting our show for free with a rating on the Spotify and Apple Podcast Players. And lastly, if you love the show and want and premier access to contests and giveaways, then subscribe to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netback/podcast. Until next time, happy trading.