How to Run with your Slower (or Much Faster) Friends

Jeff Gaudette [00:00:00]: I think the primary benefit of training with a group is just having somebody there to make the, quote, unquote, the misery of doing that workout, and misery is a endearing term, of a workout, a little less difficult. And so that's how I think the groups are the best.

Cory Nagler [00:00:18]: Runners can be pretty polarized when it comes to training in groups. Some people love the solitude of a solo run, while others thrive in run clubs or teams. Training groups are an effective way to get an extra push during workouts, or add fun to your training program. That's why so many elites choose to train together. Coach Jeff joins this episode to explain how you can use social runs to your advantage, even when everyone in the group has different goals or fitness levels. All it takes is a little intentionality and creativity to make your run work for everyone in the group. So let's jump to my conversation with Jeff to explain how. Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode.

Cory Nagler [00:01:08]: I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. I have a super love hate relationship with today's topic, which is all about training in groups. Jeff, where do you stand on this one?

Jeff Gaudette [00:01:37]: I love it. I'll say that I'm a big fan of it. There definitely can be some some down downsides that you have to be aware of, but that definitely can be overcome. And I definitely love training with groups.

Cory Nagler [00:01:48]: Yeah. I'm with you. I absolutely love it. My inclination is always, especially for hard work, has to want to be with other people. But I still, to this day, I haven't decided whether it's actually beneficial for me or whether I'm better off training on my own.

Jeff Gaudette [00:02:01]: No. There's there's definitely positives and negatives, and there's definitely things that can there are definitely, strengths to training alone. Like, there's definitely some things that benefit you on that end. And there's also a lot of things from the group side of things that can benefit you as well. So, excited to share my experience and, some of the research and some of my own experience with, training with groups.

Cory Nagler [00:02:19]: Yeah. We'll we'll get into more of what you recommend for your athletes as well as what are the pros and cons of both. But from your own training, just because I know you were a competitive athlete yourself, what proportion of your runs do you think you actually did in groups versus solo?

Jeff Gaudette [00:02:32]: That's a great question. I would probably say, probably 70% of my runs were with groups. And part of that's including college where it's kind of almost always a group run. And then even professionally, I was with the group for a good portion of my professional career. So I ran quite a bit with groups. You know, occasionally did solo runs, but those were usually just easy runs. You know? Most of the workouts I did were with the groups.

Cory Nagler [00:02:56]: And it's interesting you bring up the the team thing because I think, like, when I was in doing high school running, probably 90% of my runs were in teams. But I find now, you know, working a full time job, trying to fit in big mileage training for a marathon, it's it's really hard to get in a training group, at least for for more than maybe on the weekends when you're when you're trying to find people who wanna do the same run as you.

Jeff Gaudette [00:03:18]: Yeah. Absolutely. That that can be one of the downsides of training groups is that sometimes it can be hard to fit into your schedule. It can certainly be one of those things that sometimes makes running a little bit more logistically difficult. So that can be sometimes of a downside for sure.

Cory Nagler [00:03:32]: Yeah. And just, kind of expanding on that drawback of, like, the logistics of trying to find a training group. How do you advise some of your athletes who prefer working in training to try to to try to find those other people who might be able to work in with them?

Jeff Gaudette [00:03:47]: Yeah. You know, luckily, nowadays, there's a little bit easier to find groups in the sense that there's a little bit more visibility online than there was probably ten, fifteen, twenty years ago. But there's a lot of resources. So you can always if you have a local running store, anywhere within probably 30 miles of where you're at, they may have different if you visit them, they may have different groups that are one that might be closer to you, not 30 miles away, but one that would be closer to you. And then they might also know, like, the online resources for groups that might be in your area. And so, likewise, I would also just do either, through Strava or just googling online if If there's any running clubs in your area, you'll on Strava, you'll probably notice them kind of, grouped together. Or there may be even a group in your area that you can search. And then, online, some you know, a lot of running groups will just post their stuff online.

Jeff Gaudette [00:04:35]: Sometimes you can if you just, even go to a running store and you just happen to be chatting with people, you may be able to start putting together, I guess, links of people. Like, okay. This guy knows somebody. This guy trains with somebody here and, like, start to put together what the groups are around you. That's a great place to start. Depending on where you're at, where you're at, there may be more available to you than others. And then that gets into your I guess, how to, like, choose the right group kind of thing. But first is kind of looking at the available groups to you.

Jeff Gaudette [00:05:03]: And then, like you said, the next step would be deciding which ones fits you best.

Cory Nagler [00:05:07]: Yeah. I think running clubs have made it so much easier to to find people of all different skill levels and all different interest to train with. One of the struggles for me though is the majority of those run clubs, they happen either in the evenings or on weekends. And myself, just trying to fit around work, I tend to get up early mornings. And I think probably a lot of the athletes you work with do their runs in the morning before work or before caring for families. Do you think there's any way for those particular runners to try to find training groups if if they find that that benefits them?

Jeff Gaudette [00:05:35]: Yeah. So there are groups that do meet in the mornings. I I remember being when I was in Michigan, there were a couple of groups that met in the mornings. You may also have to find just kind of, like, strike a balance where maybe during the week, and a lot of people are probably gonna be in your shoes where during the week, it's a little bit they're on a tighter schedule. They might not be able to drive to meet to a group run, etcetera. And so it might be the weekends where you're only able to meet with that group kind of thing. But there are groups that run-in the mornings. The other thing I'll add about that I should've added with the group stuff is there may if there's not a group in your area, there may be a need for one.

Jeff Gaudette [00:06:10]: And so if you're somebody that likes to organize or just really excited about running in a group, you can definitely take it upon yourself to start a group. And, you you know, you'd be surprised at how quick or how much how how starting a group can really kinda catch fire. And, you know, it doesn't take long before, you know, you tell one friend or you start running with one friend and they tell another. And next thing you know, you've got a good little group going. And a lot of times, if if you do it through friends of friends or friends of yours, generally speaking, you know, you're probably all on the same ability level. And so, not always, but sometimes. And so, generally speaking, you can put together a small group of three, four, five athletes that can get together, you know, every Tuesday, every Thursday, something like that, to do those weekday runs, weekday workouts that can really benefit you.

Cory Nagler [00:06:57]: Yeah. And I I think that piece around defining a time of the week is something that I've found helpful. Even if it's not, like, a training group that really has a a full structure set week of time, I I find even with group of friends, it's helpful just because, a, keeps you accountable, but, b, it's so much easier to plan than if you're kinda reaching out to each other spontaneously saying, hey. Are you free after work? Stuff tends to pop up.

Jeff Gaudette [00:07:19]: Mhmm. Yeah. Exactly. I I know the the train groups outside of the professional groups I was in that were the most successful or the most consistent were really the ones that you know, generally speaking, we were in I was in an area with a lot of runners in general. But we basically just designated a meeting place and a meeting time. So it was 6AM every day, at the same place. And so you kinda just showed up if you, if you were able to make it. And because, you know, because the area was had a lot of runners, I would say every day, there was at least 10 to 15 people.

Jeff Gaudette [00:07:51]: You know, some days, it would maybe a little bit less. But, just having the same day, same place kinda made it a lot easier for people to join when they could and then not feel guilty when they couldn't. You know? And if you, I don't remember this ever happening, but if if I had ever showed up and there weren't wasn't anybody there, it really wouldn't have been a you know, it would just been like, okay. It wasn't too far from my house anyway, so I just go for a run by myself. So that can be a way to kind of initially just try setting it up. If you're with somebody or you're trying to you're kind of with a group of people that are interested in branching off from the running club and that kind of thing, it could just be like, hey. If you're interested in in doing it, we're gonna need 6AM, here close enough to everybody where they can get there and then kinda just go from there, at least getting that started, to being somewhat consistent with your group.

Cory Nagler [00:08:37]: Yeah. The other thing I might suggest, and I don't know if this is something you've done with your athletes, but even kind of bridging the gap and doing some of it solo and some of it with a group. For example, if I have a workout plan, but I know there's a group I like to run with that's going for an easy run, I'll kind of tag along with them for the warm up or cool down and then go off and find a loop to do the workout.

Jeff Gaudette [00:08:55]: Yeah. Absolutely. So, I mean, I used to do that a lot. Just, my mileage is generally higher than a lot of people. And so that's what I I I would just run. I would take a longer route to the meetings place. So I probably had two or three, four miles in me before I hit the training group, and then wait two, three minutes for everybody to kinda get together. And then we shoot off and do the run that, the like, the eight mile run that the training group was doing.

Cory Nagler [00:09:17]: Yeah. At at the risk of maybe feeding into a bit of toxic culture within running clubs, I find one of the biggest flexes is when you can show up and be the person who's run the furthest to get there. I find there's kind of a reluctance to actually drive to the run club. Everyone wants to run even if you're 10 kilometers away.

Jeff Gaudette [00:09:32]: That's funny. I I've never experienced that, but I could definitely see how that that could happen.

Cory Nagler [00:09:38]: Oh, yeah. I I I find I've gone to run clubs where people have a 20 mile run plan, and there'll still be people in the group who will run another, you know, five, six plus miles just to get there and tack it on.

Jeff Gaudette [00:09:50]: Yeah. Like I said, I I've done that. But at least for me, like, I was always, like, just more focused on, like, what I was doing. And so if somebody else wanted to run more to get there, I'm just, hey. What if whatever floats your boat.

Cory Nagler [00:10:02]: Yeah. That's fair enough. That's you know, that that I think is maybe one of the important mindsets to have when you train in groups. I think you really have to be able to separate yourself from what others are doing in a way that's maybe a bit easier when you are training solo.

Jeff Gaudette [00:10:14]: Yeah. Absolutely. So I would say, you know, we'll we'll probably get into this, but that's, you know, one of the downsides is that you do have to pay a lot you have to pay close attention to, like, what you're doing and making sure that even though you're running with the group, that you're at least, trying to optimize that group training as much as possible for you, with, you know, without act without, interfering with anybody else's workouts.

Cory Nagler [00:10:36]: Yeah. So just to get into that a bit more, what do you think are the risks if you're training in a group and you maybe get drawn in a bit to try to do what other people are doing?

Jeff Gaudette [00:10:44]: Yeah. So that's always the the difficult thing, you know, on a lot of different sides. So there's the side of, you know, whether it be volume, you know, doing, adding on mileage just because that's what people are doing. And or like so for example, you go to a group long run and you have 12 mile schedule, but the group run is 16. You know, you may be tempted to jump into that 16. And for some athletes, that might not be such a big deal. But for some athletes, that may be, you know, the straw that breaks the camel's back, so to say. So there's the volume side of things.

Jeff Gaudette [00:11:11]: And then, obviously, there's the pace intensity side of things. So, anytime you join a group, there's definitely the, the temptation to try to stay with the group and or I don't I never suggest this, but to be the person that, you know, is always at the front or always pushing the pace, that kind of thing. So you just have to be really wary of that and remember to stay within yourself. And I always for the athletes that we work with that training groups regularly, what we recommend is always kind of go in with a plan for, like, what you how you wanna adapt whatever the group is doing to you that optimizes your training and still allows you to make get the benefits from the group. So there's a lot of different ways you can do that. But I think as long as you go in with a plan and have that mindset, then I I would say that 90% of the athletes that we work with that have that plan and mindset going in, are successful in groups. The the ones I think, aren't successful or that fall into trap of running too hard, running too fast, running too far are the ones that just kinda go to go to the group and just kind of do whatever the group is doing. And generally speak you know, I I can't speak for every group.

Jeff Gaudette [00:12:20]: I can only speak for the ones the numerous ones that I've been a part of. I would say that everybody is pretty, accommodating to what you might need need to be able to do. So if you say, hey. I can only go this far today. I'm gonna have to guy I'm gonna have to check off, peel off before you guys are done, or, I'm gonna have to do an extra rep or one less rep, that kind of thing. Like, you know, most people are pretty accommodating, at least to the groups that I've been a part of it. You know, everybody's there to have fun and have that camaraderie, but then also make themselves better. And so that's how I've always seen it, and that's how I've approached it.

Jeff Gaudette [00:12:54]: And I haven't really seen within groups, too much of, like, I I would say that, people being, upset that you're not doing the whole workout or doing exactly what the group is doing, that kind of thing.

Cory Nagler [00:13:08]: Yeah. I don't think I've either seen that situation where people get upset you're not doing what they're doing. But I think there's a bit of a paradox there in benefiting from training in groups, but a risk of it being to actually do what the group is doing. So what was your mentality training in groups when you were an athlete in terms of knowing what was best for you and and how that might actually differ from what the rest of the group or or what other individuals within the group were doing if everybody had their own workout or training plan?

Jeff Gaudette [00:13:35]: Yeah. So that's a great question. And that's gets into the idea of, like, having that plan of, like, what you're going to do. So I think there's two things. One is having a plan, and then the second part is just, like, understanding how you can adapt your workout to still get the benefits that you're going for or looking for, given the the workout that the group is doing. And I would say in most cases, it's possible. So for example, you know, if the group is doing a long run and you have to do something longer or shorter or longer, like, there are easy usually pretty easy ways to adapt your training to accommodate that. If they're doing a specific type of workout, so let's say they're doing some type of threshold or something like that, there are ways that you can adapt your workout to meet the to do what the group is doing.

Jeff Gaudette [00:14:23]: So, you know, what I what I've done in the past is, I've had athletes start behind, the group if they're gonna do repeats and they're significantly faster, significantly slower, either starting ahead or starting behind the group. So that way, for the majority of the running with the group, but not the entire way, they they give this also leeway there. There's if you're still after a particular, volume, you can just do less repetitions. Cut if you're doing, let's say, if somebody's doing a six mile tempo, you know, you can do something like a four mile tempo, so you can still probably run with them. Just that, because you're not doing the full six miles, the effort's less. So really it really comes down to just understanding what your goal of the workout is and then adapting the group's workout to what your goal is. And so there's a lot of different ways you can do that.

Cory Nagler [00:15:11]: Yeah. At the risk of asking a question that may sound really, really obvious, if one of the biggest risk of training in groups is being drawn to doing what other people are doing, and one of the greatest ways to combat that is to actually know your own plan and stick to it, why train in groups in the first place? Why not just go execute your workout on your own? No.

Jeff Gaudette [00:15:29]: That's a great question. So, there is still there is still a lot that can be, gained from training in a group even if you're not doing the entire workout or the entire run with them. So they're, so so for example, some of the examples I gave you where you're doing half the workout or cutting off a couple reps, that kind of thing, you're still getting that come the biggest benefit of a of a group that I found is that you have that camaraderie of working with other people. So as as all of us know, like, running can sometimes be a little lonely. There's definitely some, joy to that. Like, I I enjoy the solitude of running sometimes. But a lot of times when it comes to that hard work, when you're really putting in the effort and it's like grind it out type of session, it can really help to have somebody else with you kind of going through the same motions, warming up, cooling down, all that kind of stuff. There's a lot of fun that can be, part of that.

Jeff Gaudette [00:16:22]: So even if you're only doing half the workout or if you had to modify some of it, you're still getting the big benefit from training with those other people, being around them, being motivated by by their, by by their running, having somebody to just commiserate with between intervals, you know, that kind of stuff. Again, if a long run even if you have to cut off three miles or something like that, you still get, you know, 75 to 80% of the runs with other people. So there's can still be a lot of benefits there, that I think and that I think are the primary benefits of training with a group. I I think the primary benefit of training with a group is just having somebody there to, make the, quote unquote, the misery of doing that workout. And misery is, an endearing I use misery in the endearing term, of a workout, a little less little less difficult. And so that's how I think the groups are the best. And so you can still get most of those benefits even if you're adjusting things to do your own own thing.

Cory Nagler [00:17:22]: Yeah. And that's make sense. Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. And I found for myself, like, I I do think it's true that misery loves company. And there there's something about being with other people going through the same thing that that makes it a lot better. But I do think that one of the best utilizations of running in groups is even just getting an easy miles or longer long runs. And you're kind of taking out some of the suffering element there, but there's something about being in a group that still seems to make the run just more fun, more enjoyable, and bring out the best in you.

Cory Nagler [00:17:53]: What do you think it is about those runs when you're not actually suffering where where it still kind of can help you get to that next level to to run with other people?

Jeff Gaudette [00:18:02]: Yeah. Absolutely. For sure. So like I said, I do enjoy the solitude of running, but that can get old. Like, if I did every single run all by myself, I I would say that probably get old. The you know, I I think we've all if we've ever run with a friend or run with a group, we all know that sensation of, like, you start the run and then all the next thing you know it's, like, over. Like, you just got lost in the conversation. So sometimes it's just just just that ability to get lost in the conversation if it's an easy type of effort or a long run, something like that.

Jeff Gaudette [00:18:31]: Like, that is a huge benefit. Like, those long runs where you're out there for two, two and a half hours, like, that can go by and snap if you're, you know, just chatting and talking, that kind of thing. And then even with workouts, like you said, you know, there are definitely times where it's, like, you're just grinding and you get through the interval. You get somebody to during the rest period to kinda, like, chat quickly with or kinda just be like, oh, man. That was hard. And, like, just having that group there to push you, can make it a lot easier and just make that workout go a lot quicker, or, mentally get through stuff a lot a lot easier.

Cory Nagler [00:19:02]: Yeah. And and can I add one of the other pieces I think is motivating about it is putting your goals out there even if you don't explicitly state it? I find there's something about being with other people who are chasing similar goals or even just sharing those goals and motivations with that. I don't know. There's something there beyond just keeping that goal to yourself that really makes it feel worthwhile to push and get in all your runs and workouts.

Jeff Gaudette [00:19:25]: Yeah. Absolutely. 100%. And there was some research done about how writing down and sharing a goal, like, what you know, it doesn't matter who it's with, but sharing a goal. I can't remember the exact stat on it, but it was it led to significantly increased, chances of you accomplishing that goal. So that is one way to do it is to be able to share it with people that probably understand what you're going through or what you're trying to do. So, like, you know, the problem with running sometimes is you share your goal with somebody that may not have any idea of what that is. You know? If you share say, for example, your significant other doesn't run, you know, you can tell them how much you wanna qualify for Boston or how much you wanna break three hours for the marathon or something like that.

Jeff Gaudette [00:20:08]: But they might not really understand what that means or the work that it takes to to get there. Whereas if you share that with somebody that runs, like, they're gonna have probably have a pretty good idea of what that what the significance of that goal is. And that can just that sharing it with somebody that understands that can be, a huge benefit. And and like you said, you know, with a group, there are just times where no matter what, you're just gonna have times where it's difficult to to push yourself through a workout or to push yourself as hard as you, need to. And having somebody there that understands your goals, even if they're just even if out loud, they just say, hey. You know, this is your last interval. Let's make sure that we, do it right to qualify for Boston, something like that. You know? Like, that can be a huge mental trigger in your head to, like, get you focused to say, okay.

Jeff Gaudette [00:20:52]: I gotta grind this out because I wanna hit my goal. You know? And if you are alone, you know, you can say it to yourself that sometimes having somebody on the outside say it to you makes a big difference.

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Cory Nagler [00:24:04]: So if you have that kind of perseverance where you know how to reach your max potential, where do the benefits still come in of being able to train in groups? Because it does seem like a lot of these elite athletes still like to live and train together.

Jeff Gaudette [00:24:17]: Yeah. Absolutely. So you're you're right. I would say most elite athletes, most runners are just programmed, to to be able to do that type of work by themselves if they need to. But that doesn't mean that it's not mentally taxing. And so I would say as an elite athlete, or a former elite athlete, there you can definitely get through it. And there, you can do it for a few workouts and even a couple training cycles, that kind of thing. But it does become a mental grind.

Jeff Gaudette [00:24:45]: And that mental grind can get difficult even for elite athletes. So anything that you can do as an elite athlete to make things easier on yourself, is gonna be a benefit to your training. So there's obviously the mental side of it where, just not having to grind every day like that can just make getting through that whole training cycle a lot easier, especially when you consider, like, elite athletes. I know as as recreational athletes, we look at them and say, oh, they got it easy because they have all the time to recover. They can eat, sleep, and eat, you know, eat, sleep, and train running, you know, that kind of stuff. And while that's great, there's a huge mental burden to that. There's also the mental burden of, like, this being your like, how you wrap yourself that's like your your being is running. How you make your money is to run.

Jeff Gaudette [00:25:28]: So there's all these mental, difficulties that come with being elite athletes. So just having somebody to go through a workout and not having to, like, grind every day can make a huge difference. And then there's also just the idea that as much as you can push yourself and as there as much as there is a benefit to pushing yourself, most of the time, you're going to be able to train harder if you're training with somebody else. That could just be if you're doing interval work like every other, if you're even if it's just one other person, every other interval you're taking a lead, the next person your your running buddy's taking a lead, etcetera. Like, that can be a a much that can help you elevate your workouts to a point that you just can't do by yourself. And so, there are definitely some benefits even for elite athletes, for sure.

Cory Nagler [00:26:14]: Yeah. I think it's cool to hear that perspective because it, you know, it I I think it's really transformed a lot of groups. You hear about groups like, you know, Tin Man Elite and the groups up in E10, Kenya that will train together, and they're so successful collectively.

Jeff Gaudette [00:26:27]: Mhmm. Absolutely. So there are definitely some downsides. So, you know, I think it's important as an elite athlete, and I would say that this is this applies to recreational runners as well, is that you do need to choose your group, carefully. Or at least, like I said, go into the, the group workout understanding what your objective is. And so having been a part of some pretty big elite training groups, it is pretty common for athletes to go over their skis or, you know, to to run harder, train harder, do more volume than they should because they're in that group. And so it is important to make sure that you're, still attacking, like, the physiological principles of your training, of your workouts, like like, what you're hoping to accomplish. And, again, adapting that to the to the group and not letting the group take control of, like, what your effort is or what your mileage is, etcetera.

Cory Nagler [00:27:28]: Yeah. I think that's that's a good message to to keep in mind if you are training in groups. Now as we get into trying to extract as many benefits as you can out of these group training runs, I think it it's pretty clear that some types of runs maybe suit themselves a bit better to training in groups than others. Are there any that jump to mind as being more favorable to running with other people?

Jeff Gaudette [00:27:52]: Honestly, I don't think so. I think all of them have every so, like, if I broke down runs, you could have, like, you know, easy recovery runs. You could have long runs, threshold workout, interval workouts. I think all of them are I I shouldn't say equal. Well, equal in the sense that they all have benefits to them. So I don't think there's any any one of those particular runs that doesn't have any benefits. So I think we've probably, probably already hit on a lot of them. But, like, for easy runs and long runs, it's just the the idea of just spending that time, having it go by a lot faster and just being in good conversation, etcetera.

Jeff Gaudette [00:28:26]: And then workouts, intervals, or tempo runs, just having somebody else to help you stay on pace, push the pace, get through those, the grinding part of of workouts. So there's benefits to all the types of runs. I don't think there's necessarily one that's better than the other.

Cory Nagler [00:28:41]: So say you're doing, like, a longer tempo threshold run where not everyone is at the same pace. How do you recommend that athletes adapt and still make sure that they're they're doing the proper workout?

Jeff Gaudette [00:28:52]: Yeah. That's a great question. So I would say that the two the two, the two variables you can probably manipulate the easiest, are volume and, either rest or pace. So if you're somebody that I'm gonna I'm gonna approach these mostly from the idea of being the group being a little bit faster than you are. I would say, maybe when I'm done, but I would say most of the time if if you're faster than the group, you can probably just reverse apply these. But basically, this the way would be to cut the volume. So let's say you're doing a track workout and the group is a little bit faster and you're they're doing maybe mile repeats, something like that, then you can do 1,200 meter repeats. So that should or or maybe 800 meter repeats.

Jeff Gaudette [00:29:36]: But whatever the the distance you cut off is should be enough to allow you to run that pace at the effort that you would need the need to be able to do, but stay with the group. And just because you're running less volume or or let the interval distance is less, it should allow you to to stay with the group and still match the effort that you're looking to get out of the workout. Same thing with temple runs. Like, you could do something where you cut that cut back the volume. So instead of doing six miles, you do four miles. You could do something where, you take some rest, either additional rest if it's an interval workout. So you could do, like, every other interval with somebody. So they run let's say you're doing four hundreds.

Jeff Gaudette [00:30:12]: You know, they could do, 400 you could do one together. They do one alone. You do one. That kind of thing. With tempo runs, you could you could break up a tempo run to do something like instead of six miles straight, do two times three miles, something like that. So at least you're getting some of the some of the volume with the, with the group. So there's a lot of different ways. You just kinda have to get creative sometimes with, like, how it will work given what you're looking to accomplish, what the workout is, and, like, where you are.

Cory Nagler [00:30:39]: Yeah. And I I think too being smart about the way you manipulate your workout with a group. So I'll use the example of the six mile straight versus the two by three mile that you said. Mhmm. I've done something similar to that with a group, and it can be pretty demoralizing if you just drop off and you have to do that second three miles on your own. But say you do, like, an out and back and the group goes a little bit past you, you can do pretty much 99% of the workout still with the group.

Jeff Gaudette [00:31:03]: Yep. Exactly. So yeah. That's what I mean with being creative. Like, you just have to think about, you know, what your route is, what your actual pace is. You know, it does take some work, but I would say that the work that you have to put into it is worth the ability worth the effort to be able to run with the group. And, you know, I would say the big another big benefit of groups that we haven't touched upon yet is just, like, the friendships that you make in those groups usually transcend just like running. So I would say that most of the people that I was friends with in the running group, I became friends with outside of the running group as well.

Jeff Gaudette [00:31:37]: And so, you know, there's it becomes a big benefit. That that is a benefit that transcends. And that's one of those reasons that it makes adjusting your workouts, worth it because, you know, you get to run more with your friends.

Cory Nagler [00:31:51]: Yeah. Yeah. I'm thankful you brought that one up because we spent so much time talking about manipulating your training to optimize it and being able to push hard on workouts when I I I would probably guess that the number one reason people run-in groups is because it's just more fun.

Jeff Gaudette [00:32:04]: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And and that, you know, that gets back to, like, the taking up the grind part, but you're right. It is a lot of fun. Especially like you said, as you you know, the first probably couple weeks, couple months you're in a group, you know, it's probably a little bit intimidating. You kinda gotta get used to the dynamics, etcetera. But I would say that after that transition period, like, you start to real like, you start to really look forward to meeting up with the group because it's a a time that you get to spend with your friends.

Jeff Gaudette [00:32:31]: So for sure.

Cory Nagler [00:32:32]: I love that. That's so awesome. And, workout wise, so, you know, we talked a little bit about a tempo run. Are there any examples of workouts you have that you really like to do with training groups, other that you recommend your athletes or or maybe even that you did yourself as an athlete?

Jeff Gaudette [00:32:47]: Yeah. So I think anything where you can do, so if, like, you were controlling a group or if you had the ability to, like, I guess, control the dynamics of the group, like, I think anything you can do on shorter loops, really helps everybody adapt to, like, what they're what they're able to do for their workouts. Either either shorter loops or, like, out and backs. Stuff where it's a lot easier to, adjust everybody's workout for what they need to do. So as an example, if you're doing a tempo run and you say, well, this loop is six miles and we're gonna do a six mile tempo. Like, it can be a little hard for somebody to adjust what they may need to do to fit that in. Or if you do, like, a 20 mile run along long run and it's just a 20 mile loop, like, it's pretty hard. Like, you if you're if you only need to do 16, you really can just do eight and then eight out and then back.

Jeff Gaudette [00:33:34]: So you really miss half the the run. So anytime you can do something with loops or multiple ways for people to, either cut off the distance or, adjust the workout, can really help.

Cory Nagler [00:33:49]: Yeah. I I find the loop is helpful too even if you're doing completely different workouts. I don't know if you find this too, but there's something about just being around people even if you're not really learning with them that seems to still capture some of that effect of running in a group.

Jeff Gaudette [00:34:02]: Yeah. Absolutely. That's what I got back I think when I first mentioned, you know, I think you asked what was the benefit of doing the group if you're not doing the whole workout with them. And that's really what it comes down to. Like, if you've ever run with a group before, you know that even if you just, like, did your warm up and, like, pre workout, like, strides and stretches and that kind of stuff with the group and then had to do, like, the workout mostly on your own, like, there's still a benefit to that. Because even, you know, during the warm up, you get to talk about, you know, kind of how the workout's gonna go, what you're doing, what they're doing. The you know, you get some motivation. Even if you have to do the workout alone, when you're done, you get to do the cool down with them.

Jeff Gaudette [00:34:36]: So you get to kinda commiserate with how hard this interval was or, you know, share your experience if somebody's doing this race and that you've already done before, that kind of stuff. So there's a lot of benefits to it even if, you have to modify it enough that you're not doing a lot of the entire workout with, with the group itself.

Cory Nagler [00:34:53]: Yeah. And when it when it comes to that, like, modifying a bit of pace or rest or or those elements, is there one you favor over the other? Let's let's use the example of somebody who's the faster one in the group. And as you said, you can kind of reverse engineer it. But would you suggest that they try to pick up the pace a little bit versus well, I guess it wouldn't be pick up the pace. Should they maybe slow down a bit and then extend their volume? Or or or should you do the the other piece and maybe play around with your rest?

Jeff Gaudette [00:35:21]: Yeah. So I you really both ways have advantages. I would say, it really kinda depends on what the, like, what the situations of the group are. But I would say that you can probably manipulate the rest the easiest, to probably get what you want. So, like, if you wanted to stay with the group the entire time, you could probably manipulate the rest or volume the easiest to still get the benefits of the workout that you were doing. You know, pace wise, that can be the most difficult thing because if you're either too slow or too fast, like, you're automatically not running with the group. So I would say, adjusting either the rest or the total volume to still get in the work that you need with that while staying with the group as long as you can.

Cory Nagler [00:36:02]: Okay. And in terms of, like, pushing hard, I think most of us are probably gonna be working just a little bit harder if you're in a group that that's part of getting the most out of yourself. But there's also there's a line there. As you said, you don't wanna be going beyond the intent of the workout. So how do you strike that balance when you're running with other people to make sure that you're you're pushing yourself at just the right level?

Jeff Gaudette [00:36:23]: Yeah. That's a great question. I think what I what I ultimately decided on or, like, I remember when I had this revelation, for lack of a better word, when I was training with groups was, I would think to myself during the workout itself, am I pushing because, because I am trying to get the best out of myself or, like, I want to? I know I can go harder or etcetera. Like or I know I need to in order to to hit the effort level that I want, the paces, etcetera. Or am I pushing because I wanna stay with the group? And I and egotistically or whatever it is, like, I don't wanna back off. For me, that really worked. I was able to mentally make that distinction of when I was, like, ego pushing or ego running harder than I needed to versus, running as hard like, using the group to elevate the effort that I was able to put in. And so, if you're able to do that, I would say that's, the that's the method that worked for me, was in the moment thinking, am I trying to be am I egotistically trying to keep up with the pace here? Or is it that I wanna push this hard? Like, this is what I need to do in order to get better.

Jeff Gaudette [00:37:38]: So that's what worked for me. I'm not maybe you can share your experience to let you to if you think that would work for you or, you know, like, what you've done similarly or not similarly to to adjust your training.

Cory Nagler [00:37:51]: Yeah. I think what you said to me, it resonates as effective. And yet, just for me personally, I think it would be really hard in the middle of a hard workout to evaluate, like, am I being egotistical and trying to push myself in that way? I think one thing I've done is is just trying to pre pre plan with, with friends kind of what their pace goals are. And, you know, even if you push too hard, usually it's kind of proportionately so, and you can adjust from there. But, I guess the other thing is just a mindset of of trying to be honest with yourself. And I I guess this is kind of what you were were getting at already. But, going into the workout, knowing maybe I need to be I need not careful. You don't want to feel like you're walking on glass, but going into it knowing I need to be intentional and this is the purpose of the workout and how I should be feeling during it is is kind of, I think, a good

Jeff Gaudette [00:38:40]: mental prep. Yeah. Absolutely. I think I think that was probably what what allowed me to make that decision on the on the fly, like, during the workout itself was I knew what my effort needed to be going in. And so and I would say that there's some workouts that are more more malleable to effort. So, for example, like, if you're doing a tempo run or threshold effort, you should probably stick within your pace range. So once you get outside of your pace range, you probably know you're working too hard. So, like, that's a pretty immediate, feedback.

Jeff Gaudette [00:39:12]: Whereas, like, track workouts, something like that, like, those are generally workouts where you can probably you know, the effort can be harder than maybe what you had, like, on paper. And so, yeah, like you said, kinda going in with that mental I idea of, like, okay. On this workout in particular, it's a threshold run. Like, I'm trying to practice marathon pace or, like, be in marathon effort. Like, I can't real I can't go fast in this. So as soon as I as soon as the time says it is or, you know, the, my pace says this is what it is, this is what, you know, this is when I can't I have to back off. Whereas if you're on the track, you may be able to use that the group to push yourself a little bit more than you might have might normally be able to.

Cory Nagler [00:39:51]: Yeah. One of the reasons I really love that approach is because that's actually the way that I've been working with my coach to to go into races. It used to be when I I started working with her that I would get a pace range, but now she kinda just tells me, don't go beyond this pace until a a certain point. It it's almost just like a cap before you then you know, when you get to mile 20 of a marathon or mile 10 of a half marathon, let yourself go if you have that little bit in reserve. And I found it to be quite effective.

Jeff Gaudette [00:40:17]: Yeah. For sure. And that's why, like, with with Runners Connect, when we assign training plans, like, we always give a pace range. And certain workouts have a bigger pace range than others just based on, like, what the physiological, elements are of that workout, like, how how much of leeway we have. But that's why there's always a pace range. It's not just, like, you know, runs, you know, nine minute pace. It's, you know, nine minutes to nine twenty depending on what the the workout is. But because there's a lot of variance there for how you're feeling, if you're running with people, what the you know, what the conditions are, all that kind of stuff.

Jeff Gaudette [00:40:50]: So, absolutely, I think everybody needs to go into that to work out with that mindset. Like, there is a range. And we always recommend athletes starting on the slower range. This is kinda getting outside of the group talk, but, like, going starting with the slower range and then only incrementally increasing your pace as you feel better. And it's not it doesn't have to get up to as fast as it can. That's just that's, like, the speed limit kind of thing.

Cory Nagler [00:41:14]: Yeah. I mean, maybe it's a little bit outside the scope, but I I think maybe another element of training runs is even during races. Like, you have kind of formal pace groups if you have, like, a bunny or something like that, or maybe you decide to run with friends. I think that's kind of an interesting one too in terms of knowing your pace range and, you know, being aware of the fact that generally there's at least somebody in the group that's gonna go out too fast or slow and being able to adjust from there.

Jeff Gaudette [00:41:36]: Yeah. Absolutely. There's definitely that benefit of, running with groups being good practice for racing where there's a lot of people around you, some running faster, some running slower. And so just being able to get in that mindset of, like, not have not necessarily worrying about what others around you are doing in a race and focusing on yourself, can be really something you practice during a workout itself.

Cory Nagler [00:41:58]: Yeah. And what's your perspective on drafting? Because we know in a race that, especially on a windy day, if you can tuck in behind somebody, it it's beneficial to you. But during a workout where the intent of it is to get the most stimulus possible, is it beneficial to draft and get that extra speed? Or are you better off intentionally letting yourself have that extra wind resistance?

Jeff Gaudette [00:42:17]: Yeah. So the way I've always approached it, especially in a group setting, is that, like, you want everybody to equal to share equally. So what we always did is in in workouts like that is we'd have we'd kinda switch off. So somebody would be bear the brunt of the wind resistance, for x amount of time, and then we'd switch or maybe it's one interval, somebody does it. So that's like probably with a group. That's probably one of the best benefits is that on when days where the conditions aren't ideal, you can have somebody that's in charge of, you know, breaking the breaking the wind or or setting the pace, you know, so you don't have to think about it. You just kinda get in line and follow the group. And then when it's your turn, you have to mentally focus, you have to pay attention, you have to, you know, do all those things that you need to execute on race day as well.

Jeff Gaudette [00:43:05]: So you kinda get practice both ways where, that's that's a that's an example of where the group running in a group can elevate your performance because the conditions, if you had done it alone, might have prevented you from, executing or running as fast as you could for every interval. And and with with that group, you're able to do that.

Cory Nagler [00:43:24]: Yeah. And I I think you see again, going back to the elites, they they have kind of this almost coordination among them, where mid rep, they seem to just be able to to fall back like you do in in short track speed skating in in in a really neat formation for wind resistance. But when you're looking at more, I don't want to say amateur, but, like, everyday athletes, it it's tough in part because not everyone is at the same fitness level. And so it tends to be the faster runners or the guy who wants to go out hot that that leads. So how do you maybe make sure that you have that balance where people are taking turns leading?

Jeff Gaudette [00:43:59]: Yeah. That's a great question. To to me, that always comes from, kind of beforehand, so before the workout starts to just having a a quick discussion with everybody. Hey. What's everybody doing for paces? Okay. You know, we're all in the same pace range. So let's say the four of us. Why don't we do this? Why don't you take the first mile? I'll take the second, third, fourth, etcetera.

Jeff Gaudette [00:44:18]: So, like, a lot of it comes just down to to planning. Elites are you're right. Elites are able to do it a little bit more on the fly, just because of their just a talent. I I I'd say part of it is a talent just like shooting a free throw would be. But, for recreation or or, you know, like, less experienced athletes, it would just be about planning, beforehand. Hey. We're all running about the same pace. How about you take first one, etcetera, and and go from there?

Cory Nagler [00:44:44]: Yep. Jeff, to kinda give a a last thought of advice for runners who are listening to this and and maybe do part of the run solo and part of them in groups. If if you've given your athlete a training plan and they come to you and say, hey, I know you scheduled this run for me on on Friday, but the group is doing these 400 meter repeats and I really wanna join them. What's generally your advice to them in terms of striking that balance?

Jeff Gaudette [00:45:09]: That's a great question because we get it all the time. So there are two ways. When when we look at it, we analyze two things. The first part is where are you in your training cycle? So the earlier you are in the training cycle, the more flexible you can be with your workouts. So at least the way we structure training with, like, runners connect is that until you're about any depending on your experience level, anywhere from ten to sixteen weeks before you race, we consider that, like, the race specific period. And so that's when the workouts become a little bit more important to be specific, at least to the objectives of that particular workout. Once you get outside of that window, we're in kind of like what we call like a generalized, or a build up part of training, and that's when we can be a little more flexible. So if an athlete comes to us and they're in the build up phase of their training or in the general side of their training, more than likely, we'll just say, yeah.

Jeff Gaudette [00:45:58]: Go ahead and swap it out. We'll put that temple run-in another time, etcetera. If it's completely different workouts kinda thing. Once you're within that, like, ten to fourteen week window, if if it's a workout that is completely opposite of, like, what we had planned. So for example, at this this sort of the extreme. But let's say you're training for a marathon, and you said, oh, I wanna go to my Groupon, but they're doing 400 meter work intervals, and you're twelve weeks out from the race. More than like a good as a good coach, you have to say, you know, you're more than welcome to do what you wanna do with your running, etcetera. But that's definitely not the best way that's definitely not gonna help you the most for training for your marathon.

Jeff Gaudette [00:46:39]: So my recommendation would be to do the workout as planned. Maybe try to find another day to run with your group. If it's something that's a little bit more, I guess, in the same range of what you're trying to do. So for an example, say taking that same person, if they're training for a marathon twelve weeks out, and the group that they're trying to do is, doing mile repeats, something like that, then we could possibly say, okay. Well, let's take the workout and turn it that track workout, etcetera, and turn it into, like, some type of threshold session. So keep your, the pace in the 10 k to 10 k to 15 k pace range. We, you know, we give them specific paces, but take shorter rest so that it remains a threshold. You still get to go to the workout, still get to do the workout with the majority of the group, but we're still keeping it within the range that, that'll benefit you towards your upcoming race.

Jeff Gaudette [00:47:32]: So, I hope that was clear. You know, it's always sometimes hard to just talk about those things without, like, visualizing them on a board or paper. But that's kinda how we've always approached it. Most of the time, there's things we can do to adjust the workout to fit, like, what we're looking for, unless it's just something that's completely off the, the spectrum in terms of, like, completely different goals for that particular workout.

Cory Nagler [00:47:58]: Yeah. And I think the mile workout one is a good example that you raised because it's a track speed session. But, also, if you're doing any more than two or three mile repeats, it's probably pretty close to your threshold pace anyway. So to just dial it back a bit is not gonna dramatically change, the the pace range from what you're doing with your friends if they're similar fitness level.

Jeff Gaudette [00:48:17]: Right. Exactly. You can you can manipulate that a little bit to to get what you need to do, take a lot shorter rest. You know, do you know, let's say you're taking a much shorter rest. You might be able to do the first lap, while the while your group is still resting, and then you catch up with the group, as they start their second you know, as they start their next interval. So you're still doing the majority of the workout. You're just taking so much less rest that you're getting in something like that. So there's definitely things you can do.

Jeff Gaudette [00:48:42]: And like like I said, unless it's something, like, way outside of, like, the objectives of the workout that you're trying to do.

Cory Nagler [00:48:48]: Yeah. I love that. I'm gonna keep that in mind. I think it's that time of year right now where I think a lot of athletes are coming off of, either marathons or or other spring races. And and now is kind of the perfect time for, for training groups when you're not in the thick of training, I think.

Jeff Gaudette [00:49:03]: Absolutely. Yeah. This is the best time, because there's a lot more variability if, you know, like you said, if you have a a workout schedule and the group is doing something completely different more than likely, unless you have a race coming up right away, like you can adapt your training to to fit that in. So definitely one of the best times spring is coming. Some more people are getting out. If you're able to run-in the evenings, the daylights, even in the mornings, the daylight's starting to get a little bit longer now. So, definitely a lot of opportunities. So, absolutely, if you're if you've been thinking about a group and you haven't checked tried one yet, definitely now is probably the best time.

Cory Nagler [00:49:36]: Awesome. Jeff, are are you getting in, any runs this time of year? And if you are, are you doing the mostly solo or in groups?

Jeff Gaudette [00:49:43]: I'm doing mostly mine solo these days, but definitely loving the extended daylight. So, this is always one of my you know, this is always my favorite time of year because it's not hot yet. And yet the the time you know, the daylight is so much more that, definitely enjoying it.

Cory Nagler [00:50:00]: Yeah. You're so right. I have a group that meets up at, at 05:30AM typically on Fridays. And it kinda sucks when it's cold and dark, and it's so nice now to actually have daylight at that time.

Jeff Gaudette [00:50:10]: Yeah. And there's no ice. So it's just like one of those things that's like, oh, it's so much nicer.

Cory Nagler [00:50:16]: Yeah. It doesn't really lend itself to workouts in, in the wintertime when there's black ice everywhere and you can't see anything. But, but in the summer and spring, it's a little bit nicer.

Jeff Gaudette [00:50:25]: Absolutely.

Cory Nagler [00:50:26]: Awesome. Thank you, Jeff. I know we actually put this podcast together somewhat last minute because we had to reschedule. But, but, yeah, I'm really glad we could share a little bit of insights on on training in a group. And I think super helpful, especially as we said, this time of year. It's it's really the perfect time to get out and and find a new a new training group or club to run with. So hopefully runners get a lot of insights out of this.

Jeff Gaudette [00:50:46]: Yeah. My pleasure. It was great chatting with you, and I hope everybody enjoyed.

Cory Nagler [00:51:03]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at Corey underscore Nagler. Worth your Strava by searching Corey Nagler, and please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast. Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, then consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.net/podcast.

Jeff Gaudette [00:51:40]: I'll see

Cory Nagler [00:51:40]: you on the next show, but until then, happy running, everyone.