How to Master Running with Matt Fitzgerald

Guest [00:00:01]: If you have what it takes as an athlete to get really close to mastery, then you're never gonna stop refining, you know, because you have what it takes to, you know, just, like, always learn, always, like, just, you know, you know, find new ways to get more out of yourself. I don't think the journey ever ends.

Cory Nagler [00:00:20]: If you've ever heard of the eighty twenty rule where 80% of your mileage is easy running, then today's guest, Matt Fitzgerald, has already helped your training. He's the author of many well known running books, as well as founder and coach for the eighty twenty Endurance Group. He's also a repeat guest on the show, and the day before this episode comes out, released his new book on how to master the sport of running. I think I might have accidentally said the day after in the show, but if you're listening, it's out. So check out the link in the show notes. Mastery, as he describes it, has nothing to do with talent, or even time and resources. That means that if you're listening as a five hour marathoner with a full time job, it's it's still completely possible to reach your full potential as an athlete. I think it's a pretty cool concept, to be honest, reaching your personal limits.

Cory Nagler [00:01:04]: And I wanted to get Matt on the show to share what it takes to get there, and how he believes that he managed to master running as a 50 year old non pro runner. Matt is one of the most knowledgeable writers out there, but he's also a really down to earth guy, who told me that he wants to normalize drinking beer on running podcasts, which you'll see if you're watching on YouTube. So with that, let's get into the interview. Hello runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Matt, it's good to have you show on the show, and I'm I'm not sure if I should welcome you here for the first time or or back as I think you were with a a different host, but great to have you with us on Run to the Top.

Guest [00:02:13]: Yeah. Great to be here. Thank you.

Cory Nagler [00:02:16]: Cool. And last time you were here, was it Claire or was it Finn who would have been host?

Guest [00:02:20]: Claire. It was

Cory Nagler [00:02:22]: Claire. Okay. That was, that was for a different book you had, written. The Comeback Quotient, I think, was the focus. Right?

Guest [00:02:29]: Uh-huh. Yes. I I lose track. I gotta be honest. You know, I write a lot of books.

Cory Nagler [00:02:38]: Fair enough. Honestly, I'm a big fan of that one as well. I think really good insight into athlete mentality for anyone listening. But our focus today is on one of your more recent books, which I think will be coming out just after this interview releases, which is called Chasing Mastery. Do you wanna give us a little bit of a hint of to what's in that book?

Guest [00:03:02]: Sure thing. Yes. So, you know, in addition to writing a lot of books about running, I'm also a a running coach. I'm I'm coming at you from Dream Run Camp in Flagstaff, Arizona, which is like like, you know, like a fantasy training retreat for adult runners that never ends. It just operates year round. So, you know, like, I you know, coaching is, is what I do. And I view my role as like, my job is to help, runners move toward mastery of their sport because, like, I'm not a life coach. I'm not a therapist.

Guest [00:03:39]: You know? Like, I need to stay in my lane as a running coach. And and, you know, for me, you can still have a pretty fulsome, relationship with an athlete as a coach staying here in your lane if you have that mastery orientation because it's like it's like a it's like a developmental way of looking at, finding out what's possible for you as an athlete, you know, like, you know, the idea of, like, you can grow as a person as you grow as an athlete, like, you're truly, you know, developing. And for me, like, that's that's the way I approach running as an athlete myself. And so that's what I try to share with, the athletes I coach. And by extension, chasing mastery is exactly that. Because it's not really talked about all that much. Like, the idea of, like, what are we ultimately even doing here? You know, like, what where like, in as much as, like, you know, the sport is a hobby for most of us, but it's still a very important hobby. It's, like, a passion.

Guest [00:04:38]: It's, like, like, like, what's the North Star? You know? Like, goals aren't it because as soon as you achieve a goal, you just set another goal that that's harder. So, like, you know, like, you know, what are we trying to get to? And yeah. So that's what I'm trying to contribute.

Cory Nagler [00:04:54]: Yeah. For sure. I I think you know, I I I like to think that running's pretty important, but it's you're you're probably somewhat obsessed with the sport if you're listening to this because I think for the majority of people listening about how to master, running around as fast as you can is probably not at the top of their priorities list.

Guest [00:05:10]: Yep. Yes. %.

Cory Nagler [00:05:14]: One of the things that stood out to me right from the start of your book is you kinda talk about how you had this different idea going into it about sort of I think it was something about becoming a journal for endurance training and how to master that.

Guest [00:05:30]: But I

Cory Nagler [00:05:30]: think it's a really nuanced difference between that and, you know, mastering your sport or achieving your full potential. Would love to hear your thoughts on what it actually means to achieve mastery and how that's different from just perfecting your training.

Guest [00:05:45]: Yes. Exactly so. So, yeah. So really, the the core idea, the thing that's gonna be novel for a lot of runners is, making a distinction between performance and competence. And I can try to make that make sense just through the example of myself. I started running competitively when I was 11 years old. I don't think I actually fulfilled my potential, which which means, like, I wasn't leaving anything on the table. Like, if I look back at a training cycle and the a race that culminated in and said, like, wow, there's really not much I could have done better, you know, in terms of, like, what I had under under my control.

Guest [00:06:33]: You know, for me, that took, like, thirty five years, and I was actually past my physical prime when I got to that point where I really felt just in control, like, the boss of myself, like, as a runner. Like, I I wasn't necessarily setting PRs, but I was more satisfied because I knew I was getting more out of myself. So that's the distinction. You know, the idea that in one sense, a four hour marathoner can be better at running than a three hour marathoner because the three hour marathoner actually has the potential to run much faster, but the four hour marathoner in this example doesn't. So it's like, well, you know, like, it's one thing to be given the gift of talent. It's another thing to do something with your talent. That's actually under your control, and that's the the the more satisfying journey.

Cory Nagler [00:07:28]: Yeah. And and is that a gut feeling? Because it's so easy to know if you PR'd or you ran faster than somebody else. But how do you actually know if you've mastered this board, or is it even possible to fully master it?

Guest [00:07:39]: Yeah. I would say I mean, you know, it's like an asymptote. You can keep approaching it, because, like, honestly, if you have what it takes as an athlete to get really close to mastery, then you're never gonna stop refining, you know, because you have what it takes to, you know, just, like, always learn, always, like, just, you know, you know, find new ways to get more out of yourself. So, yeah, I don't think the the the journey ever ends. But, like, how do you know? You know, this like, forgive how this sounds, but I really do think I got to that point, you know, where, like, I I felt like I I did kinda master running after thirty five thirty five years. And what it felt like to me was, self trust. Like, I I I just as an athlete now, I walk around with, like, unshakable self trust. I know I'm gonna make mistakes and make bad decisions, but I don't make nearly as many as I used to.

Guest [00:08:41]: And I know that, like, those aren't gonna be ruinous mistakes or bad decisions that I'll I still I I know I can always figure it out. I just know it. And and so, like, if you if you feel that and you're walking around with that, like, you know it. You're wide awake. Like, you like, you know, for so long in my athletic journey, I I had a lot of fear and anxiety and doubt. And, you know, I know that that got a lot better. Like, the all that stuff was attenuated. Like, the those voices became whispers and the, you know, the voice of self trust became a shout.

Guest [00:09:21]: So that's one. It really it's a feeling, but feeling I mean, that feeling's our life. You know? So, it's just great to be on the starting line of a race. Like, it's you know, for me, recent ones, you know, a hundred kilometer trail ultra marathon, and just, like, not be afraid. Like, it's not that you're bored or not into it. Like, you're you're very eager, but you're not afraid. You're like, I I know that, like, it's gonna be hard and and surprises are gonna be thrown at me, but I just know I can figure it out. Like, I know I'm not gonna let myself down, you know, where the things I control are concerned.

Guest [00:09:58]: So that's one. And then the other one is retrospective. When you when you look back and do a post mortem on a training cycle in a race, you know, if if you can, like, you know, it helps maybe if you have a coach also helping you keep honest about it. But to look back at it and say, you know what? Not much to improve here. I mean, there's always something. There's always some lesson. But I think if you have those two things coupled together, one kind of before and during and the other one after, you know you're close.

Cory Nagler [00:10:31]: Matt, I'm gonna ask what might be a pretty blunt question, but you're out living training with some of the most elite athletes in Flagstaff after saying that you feel like you've pretty much conquered the sport. Yeah. Why not say the hell with it and, you know, tie up your laces if you feel like you've already reached your full potential?

Guest [00:10:51]: Yeah. I mean, honestly, for some people, that that's exactly what they do. I can always speak to myself. Yeah. Like, I've had a lot of interruptions, actually, in in my running journey. I ran competitively from age 11 to, like, 17, then burned out and quit, and I didn't really run for a decade. Got back into it in my late twenties, like, with a lot of regret, actually. Like, oh, man.

Guest [00:11:23]: You know what? I could have been a contender, you know, and I threw it all away. And so I was hungry. And I, you know, I had peers, you know, people I raced against in high school who didn't quit, who ran through college, who ran post collegiately. And then by the time they were my age, like 28, they were burned out. And so for me, that wasn't the case. So though I had a lot of regret, I was very hungry, and I just got after it. But I, for whatever reason, got injured a lot. And so I would have big injury interruptions.

Guest [00:11:56]: So I always felt like this thing just keeps getting being taken away from me. And, like, I I and so when I got it back, I was still hungry, you know, throughout my thirties, like, into my forties, like, still hungry. Then I got COVID, and I got long COVID, at, 49. And then I lost four years. And at 49, I was kicking ass. Like, I was still, like, really getting after it competitively, and it was taken away from me in the like, a way that's far worse than any injury. You know, just like my health giving out, like, four years gone. So only within this the the past year, I've been able to, like, get it back again.

Guest [00:12:39]: And what I find, like, every time I come back to it, it's new, it's different, it's exciting. And so that possibility is out there. And, yeah, a lot changes and a lot is taken away from you, especially as you get like, you know, I'm in my 50s. Like, how about your 60s and your 70s? Like, you know, it has to scratch a kind of different itch over time, but we see it happen. And it's no tragedy if you decide to, you know, hang up your your, you know, spikes and and take up golf. If that's what you want, I mean, fine. But I think that that possibility is out there where you can feel like, wow. I've come a long way in this journey, and it still excites me.

Guest [00:13:20]: It still takes takes me new places.

Cory Nagler [00:13:24]: When you're at a stage in life where you you're now you're retired, you've given up authoring, do you think you're gonna switch over to that golfing side, or do you see yourself running throughout your life?

Guest [00:13:37]: I I actually don't see myself, like, you know, running to to to my last day. I don't think it's really in the cards for me, honestly. And, you know, so I'm just open to it. You know? You know, the thing that I just couldn't live with was, like, having it taken away from me before I was ready. So, you you know, my dad you know, the reason I became a runner is that my dad was a a runner, back in the nineteen eighties. And his running career came to an end when he fell on black ice, broke his hip, like, didn't go to get it checked out, developed necrosis, had to have a hip replacement. And this is a long time ago when it was always, like, you're a runner, Well, not anymore, like, if you had a hip replacement. So, like, that was the last time he ever ran.

Guest [00:14:28]: And he went through, like, a grieving process, but, like, it it didn't last all that long, and he he was basically fine. He got really into walking. So yeah. Something that'll be my story as well. You know, I I don't I I I I just yeah. I think I'll have, like, a good ten years as a post runner, like, and not missing it.

Cory Nagler [00:14:49]: I feel like you both have an endurance athlete's mindset, both your your father, and I'm sorry for what happened, but to transition that quickly to walking. But even on your end, to see him go through that and and think, I want some of that sport. That sounds like fun.

Guest [00:15:02]: Uh-huh. Yeah. Yes.

Cory Nagler [00:15:06]: So I I'd love to draw a bit of a timeline here because I know you talked about how you suffered some long COVID and maybe had to, tie back the sneakers for a little. But I think somewhere in there, maybe just before, you were actually training with some of the best athletes on the planet to achieve a new personal best before taking another bit of a break in 2023. So where does that all fit together?

Guest [00:15:32]: Yeah. Yes. So in in 2017 well, it was actually the the previous year. In '20 late twenty sixteen, I talked, a gentleman, by the way, by the name of Ben Rosario, who had founded the HOKA NEC Elite Professional Running Team here in Flagstaff, talked him into letting me basically embed myself with, the team as, like, an everyman. I was 46 years old. So it was 2017 when it actually happened. He said yes. And, and so, yeah, my wife, and I lived in California at the time.

Guest [00:16:10]: We came out to Flagstaff for thirteen weeks, in the summer. It was like an entire marathon build, and and I was 46, years old then. And, you know, even when I was 26, like, I was nowhere near as good as the the real pros on this team. So I was way out of my depth, but that was kind of the idea. Like, you know, I just you know, I I loved running so much that and I yeah. Like I said, I'd had like, the marathon in particular was my bugbear. Like, forever, I wanted to run under two forty, and I just kept knocking at the door and and not, making it. I think largely because I just couldn't stay healthy long enough.

Guest [00:16:54]: And so, yeah, I came out here, just to, like, go all in, for the sport in a way I never had, you know, to truly live like, like a young elite gazelle. And, it was an incredible experience. You know, regardless of how it ended, it they were the best thirteen weeks of my life because I love running, and I just had I had given myself permission to make running just the center of my universe for for thirteen weeks and to be surrounded by all these, like, stallions and and, to be coached at that at that level and have all the resources and support, it was incredible. And then it actually did end well. Yeah. I I very shockingly ran my fastest marathon ever, which is saying something because it was, like, my forty first marathon, and I hadn't come within, eight minutes of my PR in nine years. So, like, I truly didn't even think that was possible, but it happened. And I just came away from it, like, wanting to share that.

Guest [00:17:58]: I'm like, why should only I be the why should I be the only runner who gets to experience something like this? So that's what inspired well, I wrote a book about it called running the dream and then, created dream run camp, here in Flagstaff.

Cory Nagler [00:18:16]: Yeah. And I I think it's kind of interesting to refer to yourself as an everyman because I think you're no slouch. What was the, the time you ran at the Chicago marathon after that

Guest [00:18:25]: training period? Two two hours thirty nine minutes

Cory Nagler [00:18:29]: and change. Pretty impressive. And you talk in your book a little bit about this, sort of giving yourself permission to go all in. But I think for a lot of people listening, including myself, it's not always feasible to go completely all in in the sense of, you know, flying out to Flagstaff or Boulder and

Guest [00:18:48]: Yep.

Cory Nagler [00:18:49]: Revolving your life around running. So in the context of somebody who has a job and or family, is it still possible to achieve mastery, or do you have to devote your life to running?

Guest [00:19:00]: I think it is. I mean, by my definition, and that's that's a very good question. It's definitely one I've I've, like, mulled over. You know, you know, my thirteen week, midsummer night stream here in Flagstaff was only thirteen weeks, and it it ended all too quickly and I went back to my regular life in California. I couldn't take the high altitude with me. I couldn't take my teammates or Ben Rosario with me. I had to leave a lot of it behind but I did want to carry as much of it as I could, and I found out that was actually a lot. And and I think, like, I mean, the essence of mastery is that I mean, you are making the most of your constraints.

Guest [00:19:49]: You know, so for a lot of us, that's simply talent. Like, you know, imagine you were just, like, born a a billionaire's child, and you didn't have to work, and you loved running, and you just wanted to see what you could do. You know, like, then, like, it's like well, it's your it's your it's your genes that your are your main constraint. Because, like, there's no other constraints. Right? Money is no object. Time is not a problem. But you you're still running up against the constraint. So just because you have all the time and money and resources in the world doesn't mean you're gonna go to the the Olympics.

Guest [00:20:26]: So I think that's that's what all of us are doing all the time as athletes who who want to see what we're capable of is working within our constraints, whatever they may be. And for every man and women like us, you know, those constraints are are more practical in nature. Like, yeah. You know, would you, like, perform better if you had more time to train? Sure. But that's not really what mastery is about. Mastery is about controlling what you can control. And so, yeah, I think I think it's a possibility, that's open to to any athlete.

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Cory Nagler [00:24:12]: After working with elite athletes who have reached that level or even for yourself feeling like you've achieved your own full potential, if you had to generalize, what are some of those key differentiators that help people get to the next level?

Guest [00:24:26]: Yeah. Man, another good question. Yeah. So, there are a few. The ones I would highlight are, number one, passion. You have to stay in love with it. I mean, you don't have to, but to reach your full potential, you have to stay in love with it. Like I said, no tragedy if you fall out of love and switch to golf.

Guest [00:24:53]: But, that's kind of a good news story. Right? Like, you kinda have to be having fun. You have to you have to, like, genuinely want it versus, you know, just, like, disciplining your yourself. And so that's what you see, especially the athletes who don't just reach the top but stay there. That is always the story. It's just it's like any relationship, honestly. You know, you have to keep the spark alive, and and and that can you know, how how you do that can change over time, just like, relationships do. So, yeah, just, you know, keep keeping the hunger there, and and the enjoyment is one.

Guest [00:25:33]: And then the other one is, you know, those who make them what we're really looking at is, like, who improves the most, over time. And and it's the learners that that improve the most over time. Like, athletes who I I love the apparently, it's an apocryphal, John Dewey quote quote, not a genuine one, but it's consistent with his philosophy. The line is we don't learn from experience. We learn from reflecting on experience. And, like, that's a differentiator. You you know? Like, you you could have two runners who run 50 miles a week, you know, for five years, and they don't so they have the same amount of experience, but one of them could be learning quite a bit more from the experience they're having. And as a coach, I see that all the time.

Guest [00:26:24]: So, like, some athletes are just, like, they're they're just learners, and others need to be, like, encouraged, to learn. And, yeah, so those are two big ones.

Cory Nagler [00:26:35]: I feel like there's a bit of self filtering going on because if you're somebody who's listening to this podcast or picking out a a book on reaching your full potential, you're you're probably leaning towards the side of being a learner.

Guest [00:26:46]: Yep. Yeah. But but, you know, but even so, you know, like, even athletes who have those traits, which I think kind of are essential, to achieving, like, true mastery, I mean, even they self limit in some way. Like, we all do it. It's just human. Yeah. So, like, perfection is really you know, the path to, you know, perfection in endurance sports is, like, mostly about removing the obstacles you yourself create. You you just have to, like, get the junk out of the way and let the process happen.

Cory Nagler [00:27:24]: What what did you consider your biggest junk on that path to achieving mastery?

Guest [00:27:30]: This is also something I've thought a lot a lot about. One, for sure, in terms of ways I self limited and I was not conscious of these, you know, always in the moment. Like, it was only after some time passed, you know, when I kinda looked back at at my missteps, one of them was impatience. I am which is weird because, like, I'm I'm an endurance athlete. I'm a writer. Both both those pursuits really demand patience, but, like, by by nature, I am not patient. And so in, you know, in in the in the process of just training to try to, you know, break two forty in the marathon or whatever, I would get impatient, and I would try to hurry the process. And I did it again and again and again.

Guest [00:28:15]: And no shock because my wife would tell you if she were in the room, like, yeah. Matt's, like, impatient in traffic, in supermarkets, in in the workplace. Matt's just impatient, so no shocker that he's self limiting through that trait as a runner. Another one, which is, I think, related just all related to my intensity as a person is that I I would get greedy. So I would keep raising the bar. And like if training was going well, I'd be like, Oh, well, I think my original goal is too soft. I need to go for a more challenging goal. And then I would just keep raising the bar until I blew myself up.

Guest [00:28:58]: And and then a third one is, like I said, I've thought a lot about this. I I have, I don't know if you call it, like, a high risk tolerance, but I kind of, like, crave risk. I I, like, I thrive on risk, so I would take risks, that other runners I discovered would would not take. And I think that's one of the reasons I got injured a lot.

Cory Nagler [00:29:24]: Yeah. I find it really interesting listening to what you consider your setbacks that you define them all as almost moral qualities. I was expecting an answer more like, you know, I always started my workouts too fast or I focused too much on the numbers, but but they're very personal qualities. Do you do you think that's the case for a lot of runners?

Guest [00:29:44]: Yes. I mean, yeah. The there's a line in in the, the novel, The Power of One. The mind is the athlete. Yeah, that was that's the motto of the, the Zap endurance Team in North Carolina, an enclave of professional runners. And I love that little mantra, the mind is the athlete, because I really think it is like, pursuing excellence in sport, it is a whole person journey. It's all of you. Like, whatever it is that, that enables you, in life outside of sport is going to enable you within sport.

Guest [00:30:30]: Whatever it is within yourself that limits you and holds you back in relationships, the workplace, chores, like all of it is going to be the same stuff. Like you only have one mind to apply to everything. So it'll manifest in slightly different ways, you know, you know, based on which direction you're channeling it. But you're you're still you in every context. So I I this is you know, it all begins with, like, my own athletic journey. And for me, the becoming the best athlete I could be was inseparable from becoming the best version of myself, like, as a human being. Like, early on I mean, the reason I burnt out in high school was that I I viewed myself as a coward. Like, I, I was one of the best runners in my state, and I and I perhaps could have won an individual state title that I never won because I just didn't feel like I was willing to go as deep into the pain cave as other athletes were, and I thought I could see it.

Guest [00:31:33]: It's just like this person isn't faster than me, but this person beat me, and it's because they're braver than I am. So when I got back into running in my late twenties, like like, that was a, like, that was a a monkey on my back. Like, I want to I want to become a brave competitor. I wanna be a I wanna see myself, honestly, as as a brave man. And I didn't think I was one. And and so I I worked on that very consciously, and I felt like I made a lot of progress. And I could see it in the numbers. Like, my numbers were getting better, but that was almost like an after effect of, like, just trying to grow as a person through running.

Cory Nagler [00:32:18]: And to what extent for these personal traits that carry over to running do you grow through your training versus external factors? So using the example you gave of, say, becoming braver, do you push through that just by going through a bunch of difficult workouts and trying to execute them in a style you deem to be brave, or are there other things you can do outside to develop that skill?

Guest [00:32:47]: I actually think the number one factor for me and probably for for most people is, like, it has to be a very conscious intention. You know? Like, if you pull a group of runners, you know, hey. Do you think you could be tougher than you are? Like, most hands are gonna go up. It's like, you think you would benefit as a runner if you if you got tougher than you are. It's like, oh, most hands go up again. And then it's then the third question is, like, what are you doing about it? And it's crickets. You You know, it's like for most for most athletes, it's just like a vague kinda, yeah, like pacing. Oh, shit.

Guest [00:33:26]: I blew my pacing again. You know, maybe I'll be luckier next time. Well, I mean, shoot. You got you got you got eighteen weeks till the next A race. Maybe you you could work on your pacing? And so and and for me, just that intentionality, like, you don't have to have it all figured out, like, how you get tougher. I didn't. Like, in fact, to me, it felt like an impossible barrier. You know, when I got when I, like, in, you know, the heat of competition, when I felt myself just not willing to go deeper even though I knew I could, it felt like an immovable barrier.

Guest [00:34:05]: It's like I can't. It's too much. Nevertheless, I just I'm like, Well, that's my goal. That's what I'm going to do and I'll figure it out. But sort of like the intention you know, it's the where there's a will, there's a way is what I'm what I'm saying. Like, you you if if if it's just like, you hope it happens along the way, it's not gonna happen. But if it's actually you know, for me, in in a lot of those races I did in my late twenties, like, I I forgot about about, like, you know, PRs or time or what place I finished in. Like, I would grade my performance entirely subjectively.

Guest [00:34:41]: It's just like, how close to 100% of what you had to give did you leave out there? And I would be pretty ruthless about it. Like, I would take myself to task when I fell short, and I did again and again and again, but it, like, it was just, you know, almost like brute force, honestly. Because I think we all the thing is, like, I think we are all tough. It's not a matter of, like, getting tougher. It's a matter of, like, channeling your toughness. And so it's no wonder that you don't necessarily need a hack to get there. Like, brute force will do it. Like, you know, because, like, it's already in you.

Guest [00:35:15]: You just have to really want it and not tell yourself you do.

Cory Nagler [00:35:19]: Yeah. And I I think there really is something to that actually wanting it and wanting to do what it takes to get there versus just kinda telling your save Flip certain skill.

Guest [00:35:29]: Will. And

Cory Nagler [00:35:31]: I found one of the best examples you gave in your book that that really rang true to me is this idea of running your easy runs too easy. Because I what you described there is that most runners just don't actually want to run it easy, and it it it makes sense. Like, it's so it it's hard to push yourself to your limit. It's easy to dial it back and run easy, but so many of us don't. What why do you think it is that runners screw up the easy stuff, like just taking it easy on your easy days?

Guest [00:36:03]: The reasons keep multiplying. I think there actually are quite a a number. I think one of them is. It's my own conjecture. But I think there are two competing instincts at work in the average runner, in the average easy run. One is, like, this natural human instinct to complete a task. You know, like if you have like a pile of wood you need to chop, you just want to get it chopped, you know, so that you're done chopping wood and you can go inside and have hot chocolate. So I think, like, we naturally, like, approach run as a task.

Guest [00:36:43]: And, like, you know, that mindset is, like, let's get this done, like, you know, so I can go have my hot chocolate. And and that instinct impels you to to push, you know, to go faster. Same thing. Like, you can't get the wood chopped faster without working harder. Right? So, like, that's the direction you're being pushed in by this instinct. But there's also, like, a natural human instinct that that militates against, unnecessary suffering or or discomfort. So the problem is, you know, like, if you got the one instinct saying, let's get this over with, well, suddenly, it doesn't feel very good. And then that other other instinct comes into play and is like, wait.

Guest [00:37:25]: Wait. Wait. Wait. You know, how much difference does it really make if we if we, get it done in fifty minutes versus forty minutes? Like, can't we just, like, enjoy this a little bit? And so what happens when you have these two instincts compromised, you end up kind of stuck in in between. And physiologically, that's exactly where you see runners. Like, if if you just, and actually other endurance athletes, if you just say, alright, you're gonna hop on the treadmill and you're just gonna do whatever for forty minutes. So it's like no direction, just self select a pace. Like, that's where you will see the vast majority of runners go is to, like, this moderate intensity, which is not actually easy.

Guest [00:38:11]: And, yeah. So kind of a a no man's land.

Cory Nagler [00:38:15]: It's interesting. There's a lot of psychology going on there, this sort of internal compromise. Are there other examples beyond easy runs when runners do that?

Guest [00:38:27]: There's got to be. Yeah. If I just think of something like, if you go to the other end of the spectrum, you know, it's a little different. I think maybe the root psychology is similar. But, like, what you'll see, like, in a high intensity interval workout is, if the coach says, this is the time I want you to hit, the athlete will say, yes, coach. I understand. You want me to hit this time in each of these six or seven or eight reps or what whatever it is. But that's not actually what they'll do.

Guest [00:39:07]: What they'll what what they'll actually translate that to is, I want you to get as close to this time as you can without going over it. Because if you go over it, you suck at running, and you should quit. Like, that's what they actually hear because you'll see it. You know, athletes will what they'll end up doing is they'll, they'll have very few bull's eyes, so they'll seldom actually hit the target, which was the instruction. And their misses will almost always be on the high side unless they really start too hot and then blow up and then involuntarily slow down. So, yeah, I think it's like and it really is it's like a 90% thing. Like, 90% of runners do their easy runs too fast, and 90% actually also try to do their high intensity runs, you know, manifest in a slightly different way. But it it's, you know, there's, like, a disconnect between, you know, like, stated intention and actual intention.

Cory Nagler [00:40:24]: And what do you actually put down on an athlete's training plan? Because, obviously, you don't want athletes pushing beyond what you prescribed. That's not the goal of the workout. But you also, I think, recognize that there's a need at times to pull back, whether that's sickness or weather conditions or whatever it may be. So how do you write the training plans that an athlete looks at that and goes, this is what Matt Fitzgerald wants me to do, and I'm gonna execute that exactly as prescribed and not equal to or better than?

Guest [00:40:53]: It's mostly what's communicated around the plan, that serves that purpose. Like, I I I teach athletes to make a distinction between the letter of the workout and the spirit of the workout, And I want them to always understand the spirit of of the workout regardless of what the letter is because I don't know. You know? I'll I'll give them the best plan I can. But you know what it you know how it is. You know? Like, you're you're a slightly different runner in every single, workout you do. It's a different circumstance. And and so for me, like, what what I teach athletes is the goal is to make the best possible use of today. And very, very often, making the best possible use of today requires you to depart from the letter of of the plan.

Guest [00:41:46]: This is what mastery is all about. It it's like, you know, it's like empowerment. Like, I I I want the athletes to to be able to make, like, good decisions in in the heat of the moment, for themselves. Like, that's that's how I put myself out of a job, but that's also doing my job.

Cory Nagler [00:42:09]: Yeah. And I I think you advocate, for a style of keeping your trading simple and focusing on the most important things, which aligns with kinda what you just said. But another direction we've seen in this sport is sort of a much more data driven approach and being hyper focused on the minutiae to the point where, you know, we have super shoes that are right at the 40 millimeter limit or you have, athletes like the Ingebrissens or or some of the Norwegian, Ironman athletes who are taking their blood lactate levels in the middle of workouts just to make sure they're ultra precise. So Yeah. On that spectrum, do you think you can be successful at at either end, or or is there, quote, unquote, a a proper way to train?

Guest [00:42:54]: I actually think you can be successful at at at either end of that spectrum. You that's the nice thing. I mean, there there are certain have tos about the developmental process, but there's also quite a bit of latitude. That's part of the fun of it. Right? Like, there's no such thing as the perfect runner. It's it's not not even a concept, let alone a possibility. There are so many different paths. That's what's exciting about it.

Guest [00:43:24]: Like, you can be as sciency as you want, but you're never gonna nail down, like, a formula to to greatness. And and and and yeah. You say, like, you know, that that that, summer I spent, like, with the pros, there were, you know, 13 real pros on that that team, and they had a lot of lot in common, and that was very instructive. You know, the passion, they were learners. But on per on the personality level, all over the place, you know, from, like, more of, like, an Ingebritzen, you know, to, like, you know, the Kenyan, like, easy come, easy go, Hakuma Matata. And, yeah. So, yeah, I think it's actually not only, allowable, but important that you be yourself as an athlete. And that's actually part of it, you know, in the the five stages of of, athlete development in my model.

Guest [00:44:20]: The fourth stage, you know, one step short of mastery is, individuation, which is where, like, you go from, you know, following established best practices to finding your individual optimum. And, like, that's on all kinds of different levels from, like, the nitty gritty of how your body responds to the same training versus another runner of more or less the same ability level to, like, personality stuff where, you know if you're free spirited too much structure is gonna kill you it it it just is and and it's you know I I'm not like a like a like a total data geek I'm perceived as that But for for those who who they're they're just, like, really analytical. They have those engineer type minds. You've gotta let let them do that. You know, they they they need to be zoomed out very often, but, like, you still have to let them do it their way. So, yeah, I think there's quite a bit lot a latitude. You know, there there's certain unbreakable rules, but there's a lot of room to play within, you know, that framework.

Cory Nagler [00:45:32]: And does that does that idea of individuation apply as well to the analytical approach as it does to the more I'll call it simple, but maybe free spirited is the better way to put it. And and what I'm thinking about that is in the context of, like, if I'm measuring my blood lactate levels or prescribing a very precise interval duration, can that actually be calibrated to your specific strengths and weaknesses?

Guest [00:46:00]: Yeah. That is yeah. I I actually would be interested to hear from, like, Jacob's coach.

Cory Nagler [00:46:11]: We'd love to have him on if he's listening.

Guest [00:46:15]: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that that's that's what you run up against. Yeah. Because, like, you'll you'll have cultural differences. Right? Like, you know you know, like yeah. I've been I've been to Kenya, and, you know, they just have a certain way of doing things. And, you know, it it works fine for most of them.

Guest [00:46:38]: But maybe, like, you know, some some talented young runners there, you know, would actually fare better from a Norwegian approach. They just never get exposed to it. And so, you know, maybe that that actually ends up limiting them somehow. And you can see it happening the other way around, you know, where the hyper analytical approach is, you know, du jour in in Norway, but maybe there's, like, a Norwegian, very talented, with a Kenyan spirit who's stuck stuck in Norway, and it's just not a fit. Like, for sure, that's a thing. And that's really, like, you know, just getting back to the idea of, like, athlete development, it's always contextual. And, you know, you either have to be lucky with your context, because it it like, as much as it has to be all on you, it can't be all on you. Like, it it truly do it does take a village to to for an athlete.

Guest [00:47:34]: I mean, you truly can't do it alone. And that's a that's a theme in my book. It's like, you know, like, the elephant in the room here is, like, you need a coach. I'm sorry. You might not have a coach, but, like, you you need a coach and and not and not just a coach, but a good one. So, like, either you are lucky enough to just, like, be born into the right context for you, or to find it, you know, in early stage of development, or you actually have to go find it or or or create it for yourself. And that's that that is a point of emphasis in my coaching too. You know, like, with athletes, I tell them, like, you know, as like, I'm a I'm your running coach.

Guest [00:48:18]: Like, like, I need to stay in my lane, but, like, you you should consider moving to a to a different place. You know, like if you love running that much, like that's not beyond the pale, you know. Like if it's doable for you, consider it. Or like changing your work hours, having a talk with your boss, like all this kinds of stuff or like hiring a coach, like, giving yourself permission, or, like, getting sports massage routinely. Like like, there's, you know, just some freedom for every athlete, to create the context they need. And, yeah, I guess it's circular because, like, there is a little bit of responsibility back on you. Like, how do I know how to pick the right the right coach for me? So, yeah, there's luck. There's contingency.

Guest [00:49:00]: That's the nature of things.

Cory Nagler [00:49:02]: And maybe this is a stupid question, but as you said, everyone needs a coach. Does that include somebody who's mastered their sport?

Guest [00:49:11]: I would say that, you know I mean, this gets semantic at a certain point, but I think you can you can you can not need a coach and yet benefit from from a coach. You know, like, as an as a very experienced writer, you know, I mentioned I started running when I was 11. I started writing when I was nine. I'm 53 now. Like, I would like to believe I don't need a thesaurus. I know a lot of words. I have a good vocabulary, but I still use one. Like, I can still benefit from a thesaurus.

Guest [00:49:52]: So I think that that's the distinction. And, you know, the the final stage, like, you know, mastery is asymptotic. Like, you can always keep going by some measure. But the but there is a last stage of the developmental process, and that's what I call the challenge stage. And that's really just where, you just need to avoid complacency, you know, to avoid letting down or coasting or, you know, like, failing to stay humble. And that's what you see in in champions, you know, when, like, they take risks. It's like like Tiger Woods, you know, became the greatest golfer who ever walked the earth and then remade his stroke three times and kicked ass with all with all four strokes. But, like, this was a guy in the challenge phase of mastery of the sport of golf.

Guest [00:50:47]: He's like, I cannot take my foot off the gas. Like, there's, like, I can there's still more I can find in in myself. And so that's where a coach can really help, like, Elliot Kipchoge and, Patrick Tsang. Like, that's a great example. Like, Kipchoge, for all he's achieved, he he he says, like, I I need this guy. Or I don't need this guy, but I want this guy. Like, I'm, like, I have no plans to ever, like, leave my coach, and he's Elliot Kipchoge. And and I know from having read a a really great book, can't remember the title, about Patrick Tsang that, like, that's exactly his role with Kipchoge.

Guest [00:51:25]: It's like he's the challenger. It's like, you're the man. I'm the I'm I'm the challenger.

Cory Nagler [00:51:32]: Matt, we we've drawn a lot of interesting comparisons on this show, but I think comparing a coach to a thesaurus is probably a new

Guest [00:51:38]: one. Right on. I've done it before.

Cory Nagler [00:51:41]: Have you? On other podcasts?

Guest [00:51:43]: No. In a blog. Yep.

Cory Nagler [00:51:45]: Plus, I I love it.

Guest [00:51:46]: But it was actually I compared a power meter to a thesaurus in the blog.

Cory Nagler [00:51:50]: Oh, a power meter. Okay. Okay. Definitely can tell you're data driven. Yeah. So I, I I realized that maybe I'm picking a lot on the Ingebrigstens here, but I'm only gonna do it a little bit more because I think they're they're such a good example of this sort of ultra focus on on precision training. But one of the other things, you touch on is the need to have interest outside of the sport or something you call self complexity. But if you're talking about someone like the Ingebrigtsens, from what I've read, they live almost a monk like existence where the day revolves around running, strength work, sleeping, napping, and anything else that is specifically designed to enhance their training.

Cory Nagler [00:52:36]: Is that counterproductive, or are there instances where actually devoting yourself to running can be beneficial?

Guest [00:52:45]: Yeah. You know, I think, you if I'm going to be like in an advice giving role, I'm going to say because I think kind of the assumption is that you do have to be one dimensional and monastic. And what the evidence I've seen suggests is that that's actually a myth. You will have just complete obsessives, like one dimensional athletes who do become truly great or, you know, master their sport. But more often and that's the thing that surprised me because I I actually imbibed that that same assumption, like, as a sports fan. It's just, oh, yeah. They're just monomaniacal. You know, it's it's hockey or or nothing or whatever whatever the sport.

Guest [00:53:36]: And when I actually, like, got to know personally some of the top endurance athletes in the world, I actually saw that was that was not the case. Like, these were actually, like like, these athletes were were often more well rounded than the ambitious amateurs, like, one step one step below them. Like, you know, just balance, both just, like, kind of, like, dispositionally, but also in in their lives. So I think that is more the norm, actually, is to have self complexity. So the just the message I wanna put out there is, like, hey. You know, it it it's it's possible, you know, to to, you know, achieve your potential as an athlete and yet have other priorities and and even higher priorities than your sport.

Cory Nagler [00:54:29]: And for yourself right now, I I know you're still running, maybe not quite doing the same training as, when you're running with all of the elites, but what do you consider your other priorities right now?

Guest [00:54:41]: Definitely my wife, number one. That's that's kind of a stock answer, but it's very, very true in my case, because, like, I like, I'm a very driven like, I I am, like, obsessive by nature. Like, my like, my passions are very consuming for me, and it doesn't actually always make me, the best partner. But, and so this is something my wife and I talk about, like, where it's just like, hey. There's there's a tension here. Like, I I swear to god, you're you're my top priority. Like, in my my own private thoughts, when you're not around, like, this is this is what I what I think and and believe, and yet my behavior does not always align with that. And so there's just, like, I just gotta keep myself honest, and my wife is very good at keeping me honest.

Guest [00:55:26]: And that that's kinda like actually my I don't know if you can call it a New Year's resolution, but, like, that's kinda my intention for this year. I got very, very pulled into dream run camp to the point where I I felt like I'm kind of sucking as a partner right now. And and so, like, just course correcting, back in that direction. And if if my running or whatever else takes a hit as a result of that, like, fine. And then also, you know, just just my passions. You know, like, I I I live to work. I just I don't seem to really need or desire breaks. And and so that's always gonna be like you know, it's you know, like, a day without writing or coaching is like a day without sunshine for for me.

Guest [00:56:11]: And that's yeah. Like I said earlier, like, we are who we are, and, you know, we have to work work with what we've got. And that's always gonna be the case for me. Like, I'm very much like my dad who's 81 years old, and he still writes every day. So, like, I I know the path I'm on.

Cory Nagler [00:56:29]: That's awesome, Matt. And one of one of the other things I I really took away from your book, just for myself running to keep me excited is this idea of hard fun. And it it's so motivating to to work hard, but enjoy the process. It sounds like you've done a lot of things to keep your training fun and also have things outside of your training that keep you motivated. So I guess for athletes listening, but also for yourself, what is it that you suggest to help keep running hard but fun?

Guest [00:57:02]: I think on the fun side, it, if it comes back to introspection, just, not like, almost every runner can tell a love story about their relationship with running. Like, they fell in love with it. And so, like, there you have it. You know, you you fell in love with it for a reason that you actually weren't even in control of. So that there's your spark, and, like, that it you know, it's just a matter of, like, tending that spark from there and not losing touch with what got you into it in the first place. So, you know, it could have been initially, like, it's me time, or it it's a it's a way to challenge myself. And then fast forward, and it's just all about qualifying for Boston, and it's not fun anymore. It's like, well, just rewind the tape.

Guest [00:57:53]: Like, remember who you were in the moment, when you fell in love. Forgot the question, actually. Did that half answer it?

Cory Nagler [00:58:02]: I mean, it kinda half answered it. Yeah. I was asking about hard fun and how you're keeping your own running fun. So it sounds like that story plays into it.

Guest [00:58:10]: Yeah. Yeah. It's just you know, the idea of, of just, like, knowing what your why is, like, because everyone has their own recipe for fun, like, what it means for running, what it requires for running to be fun for them. So that's where you just you just have to keep in touch with with your why, and what what gives heat to your flame. And then the hard part is, you know, running is hard. So, like, you know, that that is what you signed up for. But athletes can kinda lose touch with that as well. They're like, you know, maybe Super Shoes can do it for me instead of, like, you know, you know, testing myself.

Guest [00:58:54]: And, and so just, like like, remembering that, like, there there's a sweet spot, with the challenge of of your training, like, not challenging enough. You're not gonna improve. That's not very satisfying. And then if it's too challenging, you're you're gonna burn out. It's not gonna be fun anymore. So just remembering that, like, you actually want it to be challenging, and that, keeping it challenging actually requires that you you kind of you know, move the goalposts, a bit as as you move along. So, yeah, just a lot a lot of it just comes back to introspection, and and just being in in touch with yourself and and giving yourself permission to to do it your way.

Cory Nagler [00:59:40]: Yeah. Matt, I was gonna start to wrap up on that question. But after you kinda touched on this, I I have to ask, what's your why for running at this point? I know we're asking the deep questions here.

Guest [00:59:56]: Yeah. Yeah. And I I gotta go. But, I will say that, like, one thing I found, like, when I when I got long COVID and it was four years without, like, being physically able to run. What I discovered was, like, I wanted to just put on my big boy pants and and just, like, my dad when he broke his hip, just, like, make peace with it. And I did it to the best of my ability, but I wasn't as happy. You know? Like, like, nothing else scratched the itch the way it did. And, like, being able to run, you know, some, you know, not not the way I did before.

Guest [01:00:34]: Now, I'm I'm happier. And and so that's really all I need it to be at this point. And, like like, I'll I'll challenge myself, and I'll find, you know, different ways. You know, just being able to run with the people that dream run camp is awesome. But, yeah, the main thing is just, like like, recognizing that it just has to be there. You know? It just has to be a presence in my life, and wherever it takes me from there is fine.

Cory Nagler [01:01:03]: Awesome, Matt. Well, I wish you the best of luck with your own running. I think super inspiring. Definitely, you've inspired me today in reading your book to chase my own full potential. We'll link to your book, in the show notes, Chasing Mastery. I think it comes out March 26. Is that right?

Guest [01:01:19]: I think so. Yep.

Cory Nagler [01:01:21]: Okay. Awesome. Yeah. We'll link it there. Should be coming out the day after this episode publishes. So, Matt, thanks for joining me.

Guest [01:01:27]: My pleasure.

Cory Nagler [01:01:42]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at Corey underscore Nagler. Worth your Strava by searching Corey Nagler, and please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast. Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, then consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.net/podcast. I'll see you on the next show, but until then, happy running, everyone.