How to Fit Strength Training Together with Running to Improve your Performance

Cory Nagler [00:00:00]: How many times should you be trying to fit in strength work in your routine?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:00:05]: Yeah. And I'd say that partially this this kind of involves how, much you have time for. So, you know, if you're able to kind of devote, like, an hour to strength training, you really only need to do 2 2 sessions of that a week, and you'll be probably fine. And maybe you could do 15 minutes of core on one other day, and you'd be you'd be doing enough. That would be plenty.

Cory Nagler [00:00:27]: Most of you listening probably know strength training is important, but it can be hard to fit into your already busy training schedule and with other life commitments. It can also be really difficult to know exactly how much and what kind of strength training you should be doing. You only have so much time and energy to give, so striking this right balance is key to improving your performance. This episode, I'm joined by coach Andy Coscarelli to focus on how runners can best balance their run specific strength training with easy running and workouts to maximize performance and longevity in the sport. This might look very different depending on factors like your racing goals and experience level, but we get into how to find the right balance for you personally. During the show, we'll cover topics including the benefits of regular strength training, determining the right timing and frequency of strength work, whether it's better to strength train before or after running, and how to adjust your strength work as you get closer to goal races. I constantly struggle with finding this right balance between strength work and running or other cross training. But Andy was a wealth of knowledge on the topic who shared great lessons for runners of all levels.

Cory Nagler [00:01:31]: With that, let's get into it. Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Andy Cosarelli, welcome to the show.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:02:13]: Thanks for having me. This is one of my, favorite topics, I have to say. Love love love strength training. So

Cory Nagler [00:02:21]: You know what? I can't say I love it, but it is definitely important and has made me a better runner, so I do love it for that.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:02:28]: Yeah. Yeah. It's you know, some people, it's a little of the hate love, and, for me, I actually really enjoy doing it. So, yeah, I love to talk about it.

Cory Nagler [00:02:36]: Yeah. I think hate love is definitely the right way to put it. But I think especially, you know, if you really love that running plant, it's so so essential. And this idea for an episode really came to me because of an interesting question I got from a friend of mine, Brian, who's a really avid runner that got me thinking. And I'll actually pull up the question to make sure I can do it justice, but specifically asked about what is the opportunity cost of doing strength versus just running or doing more cross training. And I don't know if I see it specifically as an opportunity cost, but I think this is a question a lot of runners have of how do I put the 2 together?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:03:13]: Yeah. So I feel like it's it that's what we hear a lot from athletes is well, I guess, more so we hear a lot from, like, trying to fit it all in. And many runners, because we're most runners are fairly type a, are so focused on getting their miles in that a lot of times strength training is an afterthought, which I think that the challenge with that is that strength training has, I think, benefits beyond just our performance and our training. It's really something that can help us keep our longevity as we age. So it's gonna help us just to keep those muscles healthier and tendons and all of those things. It can also be really valuable for bone health. So, you know, just the weight lifting itself, your heavy weight, stuff like that, can help us to build bone better. So all those types of things, we really wanna make sure we maintain as we get older, but, you know, it also is gonna have some improvements in our, running economy over time.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:04:04]: So, you know, there's there's a whole thing, and I I this is super fresh in my mind because I just did a post on our Instagram about running economy and the things that benefit it. But, you know, the things that benefit of are running more miles or, but then the two big things are plyometric training and then also which is jump training, explosive jump training, or, you know, heavy weight lifting. And so, you know, there's that you know, if you could run more, yeah, maybe you could improve it, but, like, how much? What's the difference? And and running sometimes can be we reach a limit, a lot of people will find. And you also can't add a ton of miles and see a benefit from that right away because sometimes if you run too much more and you your increases are too much, then you'll see more incidence of bone fractures and other issues like that. And, just injuries in general because the body needs to, adapt to any change in stimulus in that way. And so, you know, what we're limited a little bit on our ability to do more unless we've been doing it a long time and we've built things up over time, which is really the way that we can do the the actual miles and the legs. In terms of the strength training component, like, that's something we can start to integrate in and build as well alongside of our training and see also the similar benefit of it. So I say, you know, from a perspective of, like, what's the what's the cost benefit there, I I see strength training as just having a little bit more bang for your buck in terms of just you know, you're not just running for the rest of your life.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:05:31]: You're also, you know, out you're gonna be a human doing things, and you wanna be able to continue to do things at at a good optimal state for as long as you can. Right? So that's even just being able to lean down on the ground and pick something up or move something or pick up your kids or grandkids and things like that. So, like, that kind of stuff requires that we have strength in the right areas, and that that kind of strength doesn't necessarily come from running. It comes from actually doing some of those those functional strength exercises, really focusing on maintaining a lot of that a lot of that stuff. And, the other component there is that strength training also helps us with our explosivity, helps us with our, ability to, you know, have a little bit more power to our stride. And that's one of those things that also starts to go as we age. They say that when you're running, your ability to run fast starts to deplete as you get older, where you might last longer in some of the longer events, but you may not be able to be quite as quick at shorter events. And that is something that strength caning can actually help us maintain a little bit better.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:06:36]: So that's another reason that I just see that it's just so important that, you know, finding the right balance for you is going to be the the best thing that you can do for yourself. And even if that means and we say balance because even if that means 15 minutes, you know, here, like, every few days or whatever works best for your schedule, that's still gonna be more beneficial than skipping it altogether. And there's, like, an optimal way that we can incorporate straight training, but it's not the end all be all if you can't do it exactly that way. It's it's more important that you do it than it is to be perfect with it. So that's kind of where we, kinda have to find a a fine kind of, you know, individualize that to our to our own needs. So yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:07:19]: I think that was some great summary of a lot of the benefits that runners can expect from strength training. And I think you called out some of the specific we's that runners get benefits. In particular, you mentioned heavy lifting and I think plyometrics as well, or you described them as explosive jumps. So I want to explore a little bit more of this what since I think a lot of runners maybe know they should be doing strength training, but not exactly what they are. And there's so much online advertising reels of silver bullet solutions or or exercises that'll instantly make you better, which maybe some of them work, but I'm sure a lot of them don't. So we'd love your thoughts on if there's any specific exercises that runners should really be focusing on.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:08:01]: Yeah. So I'm one of the things that I that comes to mind too is the like, I'm a big believer in the periodization and also thinking from the perspective of where are we starting from for each different person. So everyone's gonna be at a different state when they start strength training. And so some people, you know, if they've been playing sports all their life, they may have already some of the natural body awareness and biomechanical sort of understanding of how to do different exercises correctly. But, you know, depending upon where we are with all of that, we really have to start with where we are, you know, where we're coming from from an imbalance standpoint, a strength standpoint. So the most important factor before we even consider what exercise to do is ensuring that you have proper form to do them. So, if you're not doing any your exercises correctly, then you're not gonna get any benefit from them or you're not gonna be strengthening the you work with the trainer and have them do an assessment and make sure that you can kinda get into a rhythm and and know exactly how you should be doing these exercises and executing them. Because then beyond that too, like, if you're if you're kind of someone like me, I tend to be, like, the type of person that kinda wants to, like, push for more.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:09:19]: And so in that sense, you know, I think a lot of runners can be like that too where they're like, oh, is there a harder option for this exercise that I'm doing? And they'll try it. And I think that can be something we also don't wanna get in the habit of doing because we want to make sure that from a basic standpoint that we're using the right muscle groups. And so one example that I use is is from my purse from from my own training and, what I've done is I used to be kind of a little bit about doing strength work. And so, core work is super important for runners, but it's really important that you're strengthening the right parts of your core and that you're not, allowing your stomach to dome. And that was something I did. And so, yeah, I could do all these core exercises and I looked good doing it and it seemed like I was, like, super strong. But, I found out more recently that because I was doing a lot of core work and I was allowing to my my stomach to kinda dome when I was doing them, that it's kind of created a little bit of a separation in my abdomen wall, which is common with women who have have had babies and stuff like that. So not not great for someone who is just getting it from doing strength work wrong.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:10:22]: So that's one of those things too that we wanna make sure that we start from our current level of of strength and go from there. So that way, we're starting with good mechanics, and then we are, you know, moving and progressing those exercises where we are currently so that we don't sort of try to do something that's too tough, and we don't end up actually strengthening the muscle that we're targeting. So that's one thing to keep in mind. But once you kind of start thinking about the specific exercises and you're kind of thinking on those terms, I think that the you know, when you're first getting into it, let's focus on some more single leg activities. And so that might feel more challenging at first, and you can always keep both feet on the ground and do whatever you need to do to keep balance so you have stability. But, working on the side to side and working on single leg activities can at least give us that balance. So if we're working with any amount of large imbalances in restraint training, if you're doing double leg activities and you don't know that you have those imbalances, your body finds a way to make it happen. And so, it can disguise those imbalances.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:11:29]: And you may be doing a squat, and as you're going down, you're working one side differently than the other. And that can also be a cause for for injury if we're not careful. So we want to be mindful of that. So I like to kind of encourage people to start with, doing more single leg activities, more functional strength. And what I mean by functional is thinking about exercises that are going to strengthen the muscles for the function that you're using them for. So for a runner, we want to make sure that we're utilizing the glute in a way that's going to be similar to the way that we're utilizing it when we run. So doing exercises that are strengthening a specific muscle group may not also be helpful for runners because if we're not activating them in the same way that we might be using them when we're running, then your body is not gonna have that kind of neural understanding of how to get those muscles on and how to get them to to activate when we want them to. So it's important to think from that perspective of, like, 1, we want to do more single leg starting out, and we want to make sure that our exercises are functional for what we're hoping to achieve, which is to improve our running performance and all that kind of stuff, and then sort of progressing towards doing more heavier lifting.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:12:36]: So once you've kinda got a good basis for your strength, you can start doing more of the double leg squats with the bar and trying to load that up a little bit more. And those kind of things, while not as functional necessarily, are really good, though, for our power and our knee drive and a lot of the running mechanics, running economy. All those things can be really helped in that way. And so, you know, those are things that we wanna work into. And then you all are are you gonna have some things that are sort of commonplace that we have to work for as runners. So we're we're always running in this, like, forward and and back plane of motion. So we need to do some work on the lateral plane because we're we're not moving in that way, but we need that strength in order for our hips and our side bodies to be able to still go in that forward plane. So, you know, doing some stuff that's gonna help us from a, a strength perspective, you know, working on the hips, strengthening those, so doing things where we are sort of doing like lateral lunges and stuff like that.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:13:36]: Those can be valuable from, from that perspective. And so those are things that we want to include as well. But I always think about also our major movers for runners who are going to be want strong glutes, we need strong hamstrings, strong quads, and strong hips. So we want all of those things to be really well defined. And then your core, you really want to make sure that your deep abdominals are strengthened and that we're using those correctly. We want to be able to get good movement through our spine and our core sort of helps us do some of that. Our core also helps us to keep the pelvis in alignment. So really having a strong core there also helps with just preventing some of that imbalance side to side with your pelvis and hips and all that stuff.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:14:17]: And then of course, we still need to be able to work the upper body in some ways because we wanna make sure that we're able to keep the shoulders back and down and not get fatigued and around in the in the shoulders because that's gonna collapse, on our chest a little bit, make it a little harder to breathe, and you can get shoulder cramps from that, which can be super irritating. So we need to be able to have that good posture when we run. And so working our upper back and upper body can also have a benefit of that. So I know that's kind of, like, very broad. So I I'm of the opinion that there's no one size fits all. It's kind of like balancing in a, you know, some of the typical strength exercises with sometimes you also wanna have integrated in some of those specific exercises to you to work on your specific imbalances. So something that I like is, you know, you have your strength set, your main set, where you're doing your heavy lifting, then you have accessory type strength training. And so that's where you can do a little bit more single leg activity followed up by following your your double leg and your heavy lifting, and then also integrating more of your, you know, specific strengths that you wanna work on.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:15:20]: So for me, I need to strengthen my hamstrings too, because I've been having some issues with my hamstrings, so that's something I have to do. And just the hips in general, just gotta keep working those and keep mixing it up. So that's how I would typically approach it. And then I know I mentioned periodization. I'm kind of jumping around here, but, you know, we start off with doing a little bit more maintenance phase. That's what I like to think about it. Then you even do a little bit more power, and then you'll have a phase where we are doing more jumps and trying to get more explosive strength out of our out of our legs. And so that can be considered, I think, simple.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:15:53]: Let's say that's kind of like your, power phase, so maintenance, strength, power, and then you'll go back into a maintenance phase before your goal race to kind of start tapering down volume and intensity and stuff like that so that, we prioritize the the thing that we're training for, which is which is running and running a strong race.

Cory Nagler [00:16:14]: Yeah. I I think as runners, we use a lot of different muscle groups. So it makes sense that there's so many different, groups that you wanna touch on if you're gonna strengthen, especially this the single leg piece, not spending much time on on 2 legs, when you're running. But, I I pick it up that you mentioned some hamstring issues and and focusing on that. And I I think this is something that a lot of runners deal with is when you have a niggle or an injury, a lot of times it's related to a deficiency, but but you also don't wanna fatigue it by doing more strength training in that area. So curious, using your hamstring as an example, how do you make sure that you're building that strength without causing excess fatigue if you're maybe already in a bit of a compromised state?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:16:56]: Yeah. So that I think that's where one of the challenges come from is, like, when you're injured in a specific spot, like, if you strain something or, something along those lines, you don't necessarily you have to give it some time to start healing a little bit before you can load it. But once you've given it enough time to kind of start to recover and it's feeling better, then we can start to slowly load it. So we don't need to go full blown like, if your calf was strained or something, you wouldn't wanna, like, go from doing, like, nothing to all of a sudden doing, calf raises with heavy weights in your hands. Like, that would be aggressive, and it could re injure it. But, for my hamstring, for instance, that we modified a lot. We right spot? And so my I was a little inhibited in the upper part of my hamstring. So I was trying I was using a lot of my, like, kind of mid part of my hamstring, and that was causing some tightness and pain there.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:17:51]: So, we kind of modified to find one that was gonna be less stressful on spot, but would still help me to start to move towards being better at, you know, using my hamstring appropriately. So for the hamstrings, a lot of times, it's eccentric strength is the most helpful, and that's partially because that's how we use our hamstrings when we run. It's kind of in that loading where we're kind of, it's like after your glute activates, your hamstrings kick on when you're going through your hip extension and stuff like that. And so we want them to be able to under like, be able to operate under a constant load there and and be used. That's where that eccentric trait come from. Like, we have to be able to, like, you utilize it. So what I've done is I was doing some of the girls that I was working out with, the exercise was to do hamstring where you slide the leg you slide the leg out as far as you can, and then you bring it back. You put your butt back down and you slide your legs back in, And so it was elongating through the hamstring as you push a sliding disc out, and so you'd feel that in the hamstring.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:19:02]: And then I was having trouble with that, so he had me elevate up onto a box, put my heel up on the box, and I was just sort of pushing up into a bridge, sort of. That took a lot of the stress off of it because the elongation, and it was difficult for me. And I did the eccentric by just, pushing up and then very slowly starting to lower my body back down. And so that's how I worked it eccentrically with a little less load on it. And that was what I needed to be able to improve on that. So if you're having a specific injury, it really is you might have to go back to basics, and that's kind of where, we it's a struggle because you'll be like, and that's kind of where, we it's a struggle because you'll be like, oh, this feels too easy, but your body may need that in order for it to start to understand how it's supposed to be working and how it needs to fire and how it, how it's how we want it to work when we run. And so, I mean, I've had it, I've had issues with, like, my IT bands and stuff. And so in that circumstance, I was doing a lot of exercises, and I was doing them every day in the training room.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:20:03]: So when I was at NC State and so probably, like, 5 days a week, I was doing this in the training room. And the PT or the trainer helped me to progress those exercises to get a little harder as they became too easy. So we didn't jump into anything too aggressive. It started with small things and then we started to make those harder and harder, until I got to a point where I wasn't having issues with my hamstrings and my or not hamstrings, my IT bands and my hips were a little bit stronger and and better able to carry the load of running, and I didn't have any issues following that. So, you know, it's one of those things that if you if you get injured and we can kinda get to a an idea of what caused it, then we can start to, you know, create small incremental changes to help improve those areas that maybe were weak and caused those in the first place.

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Cory Nagler [00:22:48]: Most of our attendees are between 40 to 70 years young, and range in ability from Boston qualifiers, to those who are just getting started. To see all the accommodations, prices, photos, schedule, and all other details, head to runnersconnect.net /flagstaff. I think that back to basics is a great motto for dealing with these injury pieces because it's it's definitely common for runners. My self included in in former years to sometimes if you have an injury, want to avoid that area entirely, but I like this approach of kinda just keep it simple, don't irritate it, but definitely building it back up.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:23:28]: Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's like, it needs to learn on, like, certain certain injuries, like, your body needs to learn to trust it over again, so it needs to learn how to load. Presently, I'm recovering from getting surgery on my hip labrum, so got it repaired. And so the biggest challenge I'm having right now is, like, my quad. So the swelling and the and all and the atrophy of not using that leg has changed how, my quad wants to activate. So we've been working on just, like, when I'm I'm trying to wean off crutches, and we're having to, like, kinda tell my quad, like, hey. Let's do what we need to do.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:24:03]: And so it's more challenging than it seems because, like, I can activate my quad so I I can flex it and I can use it now. I've gotten past that part, but the challenge now is that my leg is not 100%, and I if I when I try to put weight on it, my knee is not really trusting that, so it kind of wants to give out a little bit. And so I'm having to kind of relearn how to how to go to get to that point. So it's really small. So it's almost like if you went through surgery, you wouldn't start off with these big full blown exercises. You kinda have to, like, redo. And I've also, you know, going through the surgery, I'm kind of like, alright, This is good. Like, I'm kind of excited because we have to go back to basics, and so maybe that is gonna give me a good chance for my body to be able to completely reset on the imbalances that it has gotten used to over the years.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:24:53]: I used to my pelvis used to rotate. I would get stuck like that all the time, and it always still wants to do that. But now that I'm kinda going through and having to restrengthen everything in order, you know, I'm gonna improve the way that my body sequences the firing patterns of each muscle group. I'm gonna be able to strengthen each of these things, like, 1 by 1 so that by the time I'm done with it, I'm kind of you know, I'm excited to see how that works out in my favor at the end of it. So that's kind of the approach that we also have to recognize when when injuries pop up while running is that sometimes it's we don't need to be in a rush to get back to running. We need to be really concerned with making sure that this doesn't happen again. So what do we need to do to prevent that? And and allowing ourselves to have that space. Because ultimately, if you can come back to running in a month rather than like a week and you're able to stay injury free for a year as opposed to a couple months, you're gonna prefer that way over the opposite.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:25:53]: So it's kind of just like, yeah, let's take this time. Let's take this time to to really get through it and and get on the other side much more much stronger and not letting our body go back to its normal ways of being, which is sometimes not functional, but it's the best way that your body knows how in that moment.

Cory Nagler [00:26:11]: Yeah. I think that long term approach is important, and wishing you a speedy recovery from, that surgery. We've we've covered now, I think, the why and a little bit of the what towards strength training. So I wanna get into really what's the inspiration for this episode, which is that how, and in particular, how to actually balance this and fit this in with a full schedule that includes running and cross training, starting with how frequently you should be doing this. So I think for a lot of runners, especially if you're marathon training, it's pretty common to be running, you know, anywhere from 4 to 6 times a week. If you're already doing that, it doesn't leave you a lot of wiggle room. How many times should you be trying to fit in strength work in your routine?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:26:55]: Yeah. And I'd say that partially this this kind of involves how, much you have time for. So, you know, if you're able to kind of devote, like, an hour to strength training, you really only need to do 2 2 sessions of that a week, and you'll be probably fine. And maybe you could do 15 minutes of core on one other day, and you'd be you'd be doing enough. That would be plenty. That's kind of what I've I've kind of my rhythm that I've gotten into is that I have 2 heavier lifting sessions a week, and then I'll sometimes do a third time during the week that's a lot more focused on PT and rehab or prehab and stuff like that. If your time's limited and you don't have that time to kind of really devote 2 days to getting an hour in, then even if you can do, like, 4 15 4 to 5 15 minute sessions a week, then that's that's also perfect. That's enough.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:27:46]: And, you know, think just you just have to be strategic about, okay, what am I gonna do in each of these 15, minute segments? And so I would encourage kind of, like, one of those be, a little bit more upper body, a mechanical, and kind of maybe more of a full body, I'd say. So kind of working on how your upper body responds to your lower body. So, things that you're kind of mixing and matching some of your lower body movements to your upper body movements and, and kind of working in that realm. And then having one be core focused and then having the other 2 be more lower body focused with, you know, maybe some of your specific needs in mind. So if it's hips or something like that, that you want to work the most or hamstrings, you know, target those as much as you can in those, at those routines. And so that should be, you know, what, enough to really help us to move in the right direction and still get enough out of our strength training that we're going to see some benefit. And so that's one thing that I would say. And also, you know, if you're running 6 times a week and you're like, I can't even fit in 4 times 15, drop one of your runs or, you know, shorten some of your runs so that you really can get in something.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:28:57]: And like we talked about, I think at the beginning there, and I mentioned, it's better to you're probably better off, in some instances, cutting back a little bit on mileage to make room for the strength because it's gonna help you, ultimately, and it may help you more, especially if it prevents injury or, can also help you to become more efficient without having to do a whole lot more work. So that's one of those things, like, if you can become more powerful and have more strength, then that's gonna which is which is great. So that's something that we wanna strive for. So if we can if we can do that by just, you know, making time for strength and maybe cutting a little bit of our mileage, we might see a benefit to that. So yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:29:47]: Just to play devil's advocate on this a little bit because I know a lot of our runners listening are are probably thinking, you know, that the running is still the most important part, and I only have so much time. Obviously, you know, there is diminishing returns at a certain point, but you're not gonna cut out running entirely. So how do you know what's that point where it might be beneficial to cut back on running and substitute in some strength if you do have to make that decision?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:30:12]: Yeah. I would say, you know, you gotta think about too. Like, okay. How many miles am I running in 15 minutes? Like, how many are you true how much more mileage are you getting in that time frame? And, you know, so to a certain extent, that's like if you if you were to have to cut that from, say, you're doing 4 sessions of 15 a week and you're also running all those days, that's probably looking like you're cutting like 1 to 2 miles from each of those runs probably. So you're losing what, what, like 4 to 8 miles that week. So that could be, like, depending on how much you're currently running volumize, that could be a kind of a hit, but, you know, I would also think of it as, like, you can also use a rest day, if you have a rest day on the schedule to do one of your strength sessions. And that works out just fine. It's kinda one of those things where it's, like, it doesn't have to be the most if it's not the most optimal situation, then, you know, it's gonna be okay.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:31:05]: You just have to be mindful of how how you're how you're shifting things and and all that. You know, I think you don't it's it's hard to answer specifically, like, oh, yeah. If you just you'll be fine if you cut 8 miles from your schedule and make time for strength training and everything will be great. Because part of it also is what are you training for? What's the distance that you're training for? You know, in the marathon, your legs are gonna be a lot more fatigued and you're putting more miles in, and we kinda need some of that because we're training for a distance and we need to train our bodies to run, be able to run when they're fatigued and be able to still maintain a good effort, even when you're tired. And so we need to be able to have a little bit of that accumulative fatigue in the legs. And so we want to be able to at least get like 35 miles in at the very least. And so if that's really cutting out your ability to get that strength work in, that can sometimes can be, you know, a little bit more understandable because, we don't wanna overdo it in terms of the strength and the training. So in that circumstance, just fit in fit in what you can, but try not to drop it altogether, at least from a, you know, if you can get it if you can get in 2 15 minute sessions, but make them pretty good, solid, you know, continuous, so not taking breaks in between exercises, trying to go and keep, like, a nice continuous rhythm through your set or your exercise, then that's gonna still pay off for us.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:32:25]: It's gonna be enough to help us get to the neck to kind of keep that that strength component in there. Yeah. But I I mean, I think, you know, if you're missing a couple miles, you're not those 2 those couple of miles aren't gonna make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things. And I think that's something that a lot of runners have to keep in mind, myself included. I sometimes will be like, I just wanna hit this number for the week. And it's like, what difference is 59 miles versus 61? Or what difference is 30 miles versus 28? It's really not a huge difference. So you have to kind of recognize there's a balance to it. You could also sort of have down up and down weeks.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:33:04]: And, like, during your down weeks, you purposely try to get a good volume of strength, and then you lighten it a little bit on your higher weeks, just to keep some balance there. Strength is one of those things though that if you were to do it every other week, you'd probably feel sore every time you reincorporated it because it is something that can kind of go away quicker than running fitness does. So you'd be have to be mindful of it. That consistency matters. We don't wanna start strength training in the middle of a marathon block. If you're not strength training already, probably not worth it to start when you're midway through a training block. So I like to think of strength training as being something we incorporate at this from the start, and that way we can maneuver through training with it, get our bodies used to it, go through the the soreness phase of it, and get through that when we have lower mileage and then work our way up. And then that way too, we can we've got more of the building blocks in place already so that if we have to be a little bit more flexible through the base miles of our training, then we might we have that ability to do that a little bit more.

Cory Nagler [00:34:06]: Yeah. I think that's a good note that you wanna build up that base for strength training first the same way you would with running. So this is actually perfect timing because I think is this is airing now in in mid June. It's it's probably just before a lot of runners will be starting that fall build.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:34:21]: Yeah. Yeah. It's perfect timing to really start to kinda think about how you wanna approach your your strength training in your next cycle and how you wanna use it, to your advantage and and that kind of stuff. So, yeah, this is kinda the perfect time to sort of start experimenting with it and building it up and and seeing what you can do.

Cory Nagler [00:34:39]: Yeah. So let's dive a little bit more into where to fit in these sessions. So, again, I'll use that example. We'll say those 2 quick 15, 20 minute sessions. If you're a runner who's running those 6 days a week, you probably have, we'll say, 2 to 3 hard days a week. And I I say hard because I think long run, even without speed work in it, I would certainly count in the in the category of being a workout. Where between those sessions would you wanna fit in those 2 strength work sessions?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:35:08]: Yeah. So this is one of those things. We get this question a lot because, oftentimes, your your hard sessions are gonna be your longer sessions, so timing can be a little challenging to fit this in. But, you know, the ideal situation, if you have the flexibility and the time, is to do hard days hard. With one exception. We don't wanna do a hard long run with strength training on top of that, in this in the sense of, like, if you're doing a long run with, you know, pretty tough work to it or really long especially marathon workouts. If you're doing something shorter, it may not be as impactful, but, you know, your body is just in a different state of fatigue, especially after, like, a marathon long, long run or a long run with with, you know, some pace work to it. Those Those are gonna be significantly harder on the body and are gonna be more broken down, and you might also have, you know, an amount of, you know, electrolyte deficiency after something like that depending upon, you know, if it's hot or something like that.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:36:08]: So in those circumstances, we do not want to do hard days hard with a long run. I think that's gonna be way too much in the body, and you just in increase your risk for injury. And so when we say hard day is hard, we're kind of looking more towards, you know, your, your workouts during the week. So if you have sort of like 2 workouts during the week that are, that are not your long run, then those are gonna be the most ideal days to do your strength training, primarily after because we wanna prioritize the exercise that's that you're that you're that you are most concerned with. So we want our runs to be quality. We're not we don't necessarily want the strength training to be the quality that we're unless you're trying to build muscle and your goal is to really become stronger and your running's more of a second like, kinda second to your strength training goals, then you wanna strength train first. If running is your primary objective, strength train second. And so that could be as simple as, like, you run-in the morning, do your work in the morning, do your strength training in the evening.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:37:08]: That's a good way to do it. It gives your body some time to refresh. You can fuel up. You can rehydrate, do all those things in between the two sessions. Your legs may be fatigued, and that's okay because, you know, you you're gonna lighten the weights. You're just gonna do what your body's capable of that day, and you're gonna see your strength gains from there. So you're always gonna if you're always kinda in that fatigue state, you're gonna be able to see those improvements over time because you're gonna be able to see where they are at the same time every week. So that's good that we know kinda generally where we're at, when we've done a workout in the morning and and that kind of thing.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:37:44]: And so, I've I've read some stuff about kind of how this functions sort of, how strength training is slightly different than running because running is catabolic, so it breaks down muscle tissue, whereas strength training is is meant to build up muscle tissue and and, you know, causes some micro tears as well, but it's supposed to kind of help to build up our muscle tissue. And so that's one of the reasons too why strength training later can also be more valuable if you do the one and then the other, is just because of the the function of that is, like, if you strength train right before you run, you're kind of, you know, building up muscle and then tearing it down. So it's kind of like it doesn't that that's I've read about that. I've heard people also kind of argue the case for the opposite. So I think that there's kind of some different viewpoints on there, and you probably have to do your own research on what's most optimal for you. But, generally, we say, you know, do your primary objective first. If if you aren't able to, say, do your hard days hard, if you kinda have you kinda wanna get them in when in the best optimal situation for you. So if that means that you have to strength train the day before a hard effort, that's gonna be fine.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:39:00]: You just have to remind yourself, and this is one of those things where if you're someone who has trouble with not being too dictated by your paces, so if you're somebody who, is gaining confidence from your workouts and you're struggling in your workouts when you're doing the lifts the day before. You might have to just be mindful and back off the paces on your workouts and be like, it's okay. Like, I know I'm going into these more fatigued, and you you're gonna have to have that ability to kind of, like, go with the flow on it and not be too stressed if your paces aren't there. It's just as it's just like if you did like a hard run the day before doing something else hard, you're gonna be tired. We We don't recommend that, but if you were to do it, you would feel tired. So we have to be mindful if we're gonna do something in that in that order. It's still okay to be done. It's just like I said, it's just you have to know, how you might feel and adjust for it.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:39:56]: Otherwise, you know, if you do it the day after a hard effort, that's also gonna be fine. Ideally, like, we use that day after a hard effort as a recovery day, but I wouldn't say necessarily unless you're super, super sore from your workout. I wouldn't say necessarily that the strength workout's gonna be too, like, it's not gonna be too much of a load. But also, again, be mindful of how much you do and how much you lift or whatever it is so that we can be able to, ensure that we're continuing in the right way and not over training ourselves or not giving ourselves enough recovery. So those are just like the things where if you're doing them on different days, you just have to be a little bit more mindful of how you approach those and how more how your mind will approach those things and how you're going to, kind of put yourself in that place. So those are kind of what I would suggest. One thing to also be mindful of is just how much you do the day before a long run. So, you know, if you're doing a super long run, try not I wouldn't do a heavy lift the day before.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:41:03]: That's something where you can do something lighter if you need to, if that's the most optimal time for you to do something, do something that's going to be a little bit lighter on the body, not going to be quite as stressful to it, just so we're not going into the long run too fatigued or sore or anything like that. Because when you're running for a long time, if you're already going into it sore, you know, you're just higher risk for kinda creating some new imbalances or compensating or doing something like that where your body's not running optimally, and you're gonna be doing that for a long period of time in that regard. So, yeah, we don't wanna create some new issues from kinda how we, how we, add that strength in.

Cory Nagler [00:41:42]: Yeah. I just wanna weigh in on this before versus after the workout if we're talking about midweek workouts. I'm not sure exactly what the science says, but I will say that it feels absolutely terrible to go and do that midweek speed work right after a a gym session. So if nothing else, I'm going with that.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:41:58]: Yeah. I mean, I used to do I used to I mean, this was a lot lower level, but I used to when I was working an engineering job, I would go at lunchtime and just do a double, and I would but I would run to the gym, take a class. It was called, CX Works. I think it was, like, a core class. And even that, like, we would do some stuff for your, like, hips and stuff because all that's included in your core. Even that, like, when I would go to run back to the office, my legs would feel like Jell O on the second half of the run, and I just hated the feeling of it. And so I always just like, ugh, I don't know how anyone could do this, you know, run after strength training. So, yeah, it doesn't it doesn't feel great.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:42:39]: If you're, like, fine with that, you know, go for it, but I'm not a fan.

Cory Nagler [00:42:44]: Yeah. I'm not a fan either. I, what we recently had our long weekend in in Canada. I think just the week before, the US, and my brother who's big in going to the gym invited me out, and I've looked it up online. It's about 5 miles away, and I thought, perfect. I'll jog there and back, get in my 10 miles, get in a lift easy. The jog there is fine. After afterwards is maybe a little bit tougher.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:43:08]: Yeah. It's always that little tiny run back. I think I was only running, like, a mile and a half back. So it wasn't, like, a crazy long run on the second half of it, but it was still enough that I was like, this is I hate the second half of this run. Like, it's just the I'd rather I'd rather be able to finish my full 3 miles, but then I wouldn't have a way to get back unless I ran again. So, like, way back

Cory Nagler [00:43:30]: to work. You wanna have the phone on you so you can call an Uber or grab a bus if needed.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:43:34]: Yeah. Yeah. I know. Well, and I don't I feel like nowadays, it might not be so bad because I could hop on the scooters. I don't know. We have suitors in Raleigh that I could hop on, but, you know, Yeah. I'll be not that was not around when I when I was working in engineering. So

Cory Nagler [00:43:52]: I'm guessing not. Okay. So I I think that covers it in terms of when in the week you wanna get in that run, but that's probably more specific to when you're in peak training. So as you kind of get to the portion of your training block where you're getting closer to races, whether that's tune up or your goal race, are you gonna adjust that frequency or timing at all?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:44:14]: Yeah. So I kind of I'll still do 2 sessions heavier sessions a week, but we'll start to kind of taper the load down. So instead of doing and I I mean, I kinda like to think about how I maneuver through my strength training in regards to how I'm tapering my miles. So you're gonna taper your miles probably a little bit more before you really start to take a ton of load off on the, strength training part. But, I like to kind of, like, 1st week into the taper, start to just do lighter weights or don't get try to go any heavier or anything like that. And then the 2nd week, we are definitely starting to drop the load a little bit, but still doing the exercises. And then, the week of, I would I would suggest just doing more, mobility and activation. So with that, you're you're activating the muscles.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:45:05]: You're doing and also kind of looking thinking more functional again. So, activating the muscle groups that we're gonna need to fire, and then also making sure that things stay mobile. Because one of the things that happens when you start to decrease volume is that you can find that you're a little more stiff because you're not moving the body quite as much. So, that mobility piece and just still doing some of those activations and and stuff like that can just help the body to feel a little bit more comfortable as you taper. The other thing to keep in mind is that you may feel these little niggles and things like that as you're tapering, and that's pretty normal too that, your body's used to this high level of, training and fatigue and pain, that it masks some of those little things that you're feeling. And so you might to feel those a lot more in the taper. And so that's when you wanna kinda be you know, do more body work or you can even be feeling some of those things. That's a good time too for, ice baths and stuff like that or icing things just to kind of like prevent some of the soreness.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:46:05]: You know, they there's been this whole thing with, like, whether or not you should ice and stuff like that. And generally, the reason that they say not to ice in the middle of a season is because of the way that it blocks the inflammatory response that helps us with our recovery. But when we are sort of getting into the taper, we really aren't, we're not trying to build fitness at that point. So really the icing can just help us to kind of feel more comfortable through the taper and not have soreness. And so that kind of stuff can help us in as we sort of reach towards race week, but that's neither here nor there on the strength side. But but, yeah, but with the strength, we kind of wanna start to think about, you know, where are we what is the goal with what we're doing? And if we've reached our max volume, we've done all the training, yeah, now's the time that we're we're really trying to just get our body prepared to race. And so in the same way that you would approach preparing your body to be fully recovered and ready to go for race day, the same thing applies for our strength training. What each week, think about what's your goal for the week in terms of how you're utilizing strength training to be ready to race in whatever time frame you have left.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:47:13]: So that's how I look at each week and and, you know, so that means that, like, race week, I'm just trying to ensure that everything's still firing on all cylinders. We're we're still moving appropriately, and things are feeling good. And so that's my that's my goal once I once I reach that that race week point. So yep.

Cory Nagler [00:47:34]: Yeah. Easier said than done. I think if you can get to that start line feeling healthy, fit, and fresh, then, you've definitely done something right.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:47:41]: Yeah. For sure. And and one thing we haven't talked about too is just kind of, like, how it might be different between what type of races that you're running. So, like, different types of strength training. Right? So 5 k runners and people running shorter distances may benefit from doing more more explosive stuff and and different types of training. Whereas in the marathon, you're probably more fatigued. You probably don't need to do quite as much of explosive stuff. The best time to do that would be probably before, especially if you have a speed block before your marathon.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:48:14]: That might be a good time to do a little bit more of that type of shrink training. But within the marathon block, kind of being very specific on on what you're doing and how much you're doing of it and, kind of thinking about what are we what are we looking to develop with our marathon training. Whereas in the 5 k, we need some power behind us, to kind of be able to keep that knee drive throughout the entire race and then feel strong throughout. So that's another consideration that I, encourage runners to kinda think about too is, like, what what am I actually training for, and, what is the best approach, for my strength training given that?

Cory Nagler [00:48:50]: Yeah. And I think intuitively, that makes sense. Just looking at the elite level athletes, as you look at some of the shorter distances, you can definitely tell that there's a lot more strength and muscle that comes into play.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:49:01]: Yeah. Yeah. I could just yeah. So it's gonna be slightly different, and that's where it's important to differentiate what you're doing. And and if you're working with somebody like a strength coach of some sort, make sure they understand what your goals are and what your races are and what you're looking for, because that's where this can be a differing type of thing for, you know, you there's run of the mill strength trainer and then working with a trainer that really has that understanding of of runners and what our needs are comparative to, you know, other sports or just a generic athlete in the gym.

Cory Nagler [00:49:35]: Yep. Yep. Definitely important to consider your individual strengths. So just to bring it back together for everyone listening, I think the key takeaway here is really just how do you fit together the the strength bases pieces with your routine to kinda create a cohesive plan. So if you were to give a kind of high level takeaway for runners of how to strike that perfect balance, what would it be?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:50:02]: I would say, you know, you know, kind of it's it's so hard to give just a, like, a single piece, but, my my biggest takeaway.

Cory Nagler [00:50:12]: To a few, that's okay as well.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:50:15]: Yeah. I mean, my biggest takeaway and my biggest thing that I want runners to understand is is that, you know, doing something is better than nothing at all. So even if you can only fit 5 minutes into your day, that's still gonna be better than just being like, I don't have 15 minutes. I'm just gonna skip it. So I'd say, like, just finding a good balance for you and what feels comfortable, and that may take some trial and error. You know, you may find that if you do strength training 3 times a week, then that feels the best. You may find that twice a week feels best. You may find that if you are aren't consistent enough that you're you're more sore and you need to keep it to this level of of strength training each week if you wanna actually see some benefit from it.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:50:56]: So you that's some of this is gonna be, you know, go through the motion, figure out what feels best, work on, things that are most important to your specific running, journey. So if if you can't do the heavy lifting, you have what you have at home, and that's what you've got. Focus on individual imbalances that you can strengthen and work on and improve. I'm also I've I've I've found that, something that's really helped me as a runner is also reminding myself of my strength. So I've used that to help whenever I've had body images used or things like that, where I've been like, okay, you know what? Like, you know, I didn't have a good workout today, but, you know, I still can do this thing. And so I would remind myself of this strength thing that I I can do and really kind of really remind myself of of how valuable my strength is and and what I can do and be thankful for that. So, you know, that's something that I encourage runners to find for themselves, and feel good about. But yeah.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:51:53]: So I think, like, it's just, you know, finding doing what you can, fitting it in the best that you can, not worrying about perfection, but being more concerned with, you know, making the best effort that you have for the day to do those things, and you'll be fine. Like, if you can do all those things, you're gonna be okay on the other side. It's gonna be perf you're gonna be you you can't overextend yourself or you're not gonna be successful. So it's it's really about finding the perfect balance for yourself. So it might be individual. It might not be what everyone else is doing, but that's okay. So, yeah, better than nothing.

Cory Nagler [00:52:28]: Yeah. I think that's a good note to leave out on. I've even found for myself at, at different points in my running journey, if you wanna call it that. I've kind of, felt better doing different levels of strength training just as I have with running. So I think, it's it's it's a good note to just feel what's right for you.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:52:45]: Yeah. Yeah. So I I love strength training, and I and I've come to realize I need to ensure that I keep it as part of my regimen in order for me to feel good. And so, I had to learn that the hard way because I used to do it to an extreme, more out of, I feel like an obsessive, sort of realm of, you know, I felt like I if I didn't do it, I'd be in trouble. And so, like, getting out of those habits, if you're in those, is something important to recognize. You don't always have to work hard to see improvement. You need to have a balance on it. So I I found now that, you know, going from doing that extreme to, not doing it all for a period of time and then getting injured, it was not the right move for me.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:53:28]: And, I needed to get a better grip on how often I did it and really prioritizing it. So I've maneuvered and changed my schedule in a way that I that I can, and I know not everybody has that possibility, but I've kind of figured out what I feel comfortable with, and it's working. So

Cory Nagler [00:53:47]: That's awesome. Glad it's worked for you, and hope that this can benefit other runners who are listening. Andi, thanks so much for joining me today.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:53:53]: Yeah. Thanks for having me on.

Cory Nagler [00:54:10]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at corey_nagler. Worth your strap up by searching corey Nagler. And please consider connecting with rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast. Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, then consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netforward/podcast. I'll see you on the next show.

Cory Nagler [00:54:47]: But until then, happy running, everyone.