How to find your perfect shoe for race day

Finn Melanson [00:00:09]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn Molineson, and this is the run to the top podcast. Podcast dedicated to making you a better runner each and every episode. You're created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net,

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Finn Melanson [00:00:26]: the best running information on the internet,

Finn Melanson [00:00:28]: as well as training planes to fit every runner and every budget. Over the past few years, we have seen massive changes in shoe technology with the growth of carbon plated super shoes designed specifically to make you faster. But are Super Shoes worth it for you? And if so, which ones are the best for you? In today's show Coach Haley and Coach Alex are gonna discuss how you can find the perfect pair of racing shoes to meet your specific goals and running style will cover what you should look for in a race day shoe, to super shoe or not to super shoe and your other options, whether you need a separate pair of shoes for racing, some of our coaches personal favorite shoes, and so much more. If you have lofty racing goals, you're gonna want the best shoes to maximize performance. So let's get into it with a discussion on how to find your next perfect shoes for race day. He trained in the mornings and struggled to get motivated and focused those first few hours at work then you'll love quality of mind from neurohacker, a research backed, neutropic designed to help improve daily mental performance. I'll tell you more about them later, but you can go to neurohacker.comforward/rttt for a $100 off and use code r. TTT to save an extra

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Cory Nagler [00:02:11]: Hello, RC listeners, and welcome to part 2 of our September racing series, all about finding your perfect race day shoes. Whether you're a shoe nerd like myself who loves hearing about the latest super shoes or just getting into racing and wondering where to start, this is gonna be a conversation you're gonna love. I brought with me 2 RC Coaches who are no strangers to racing. Alex and Haley. Welcome back to the show, both of you.

Alex Ostberg [00:02:35]: Thanks, Corey. I'm excited to talk about this topic.

Cory Nagler [00:02:38]: I am very excited, and I hope a lot of people like me love talking about shoes every time you go for a run unless you're going out barefoot. If that's your thing, you're probably throwing on something. so we're gonna get right into it focus today really is on those race day shoes, but just before we get into that, to better understand what a race day shoe is, I wanna touch on some of the different types of shoes. and kinda why we might need different types of shoes. And and when I say that, there's a lot of ways to to define that, but I'm kinda thinking of the purpose or what types of rinds are using it for. So I guess why don't we start with you, Haley? Do you have any thoughts on on kind of what those different types of shoes are that you might wanna consider?

Coach Hayley [00:03:16]: Yeah. I guess so, for me, I've got, like, my easy running shoes. So I do most of my mileage in that shoe. Just kind of regular runs, not workouts just, you know, for those easy miles. I'll leave, say what that is until later because I think we're gonna say our favorite shoes then, but, that's generally got, most people choose from kind of quite a lot of cushioning. they come in different levels of of stability. So you get neutral shoes, support, and stability shoes. They have they support your feet different amounts, basically. that's quite a big topic in itself, but, Yeah. So then I have a pair of shoes that I wear for, like, temporary workouts. and just actually I wear kind of the same shoes for most workouts. I know some people probably have shoes that they wear tempo. She's aware of the intervals, things like that, but I wear the same sheet for tempoed intervals, and that would be like a lightweight trainer. So not quite as cushioned as my easy shoe, and probably not much support, but it's it's not like a really no minimal shoe. It's still got some cushioning. it doesn't feel like really stripped back and It's still going to provide some cushioning. and then I have, I have a trial shoe as well. So, they are for when I, I run off road, a little bit more grit, often a little bit less cushioning, minor actually like an all terrain one so I can kinda use them on the road, but, they've got a bit more grip for the child because they do tend to run off road quite a bit. and then my race issues. So I've got, like, a few pairs of these actually, like, for different distances depending on what what I'm doing, like, a marathon or, like, 5 k. traditionally, like a race day. She was like, a much kind of lighter weight shoe, a lot more stripped back. not much cushioning, a bit more minimalist, but, you know, the bed thing these days, we've got super shoes now. So I do have like a more traditional lighter weight racing shoe that I do use, but, I've also got a few pairs of super shoes. So they tend to have like, well, they have a carbon plate and also the different types of foam. And they are kind of the new new ish thing in shoes, and they are meant to help you on a bit faster by reducing the energy cost of running. And they did this with the carbon plate kind of propelling you along. So they're meant to make running a little bit easier and they're kind of the reason why a lot of people think that records are are really, you know, coming down so much these days and people are running quite a bit faster. So yeah, I had to have a few pair of those as well. So, yeah, they're kind of the main, types of shoes that I own at the moment.

Cory Nagler [00:06:23]: For sure. Yeah. And for those who have listened to our truth or miss series, we actually did address that topic of whether super shoes actually do make you faster and spoiler alert if you haven't listened, the evidence does show that they do on some level make you faster even if that specific impact may vary by the individual. That is gonna be the focus of our episode today is really those those racing shoes, but just before I fully dive into that, so are there any other types of shoes that you have in your rotation beyond what Haley mentioned. And then I guess you maybe wanna tell us a little bit about why you might use different types shoes as opposed to just having a racing shoe for all your runs?

Alex Ostberg [00:06:58]: Sure. I think Haley did a great job providing a general overview. the only other category of shoe that I would personally use is, a racing spike, and that's because I'm still racing on the track. so I don't know how many of our listener are gonna be participating in track races. I think we skew more towards the roads in general. but if you are doing, you know, a mile or a five k on the track, getting a little bit more traction with the spike, is is probably advantageous. I will say in general, with any type of shoe and the especially important with spikes. If you're gonna be transitioning into a new model of shoe, don't do it quickly. you wanna gradually start that progression with small doses and then increase it over time. One of the biggest mistakes I think I've made in my rank career is spending a lot of time in the base phase of training and not putting on spikes. And then when I put on spikes for race season and you can apply this logic to any other type of shoe, let's say you do a lot of training in daily neutral trainer and then you jump into a really low profile racing shoe, it changes the mechanics of the way your foot interacts with the ground. And so typically that really stresses the soft issue of the foot. And I've, several times, ended up really flaring up my player and my Achilles by jumping in and doing a lot of volume all of a sudden. in those, racing type shoes. I'll also say that I think depending on the type of runner that you are, there's probably more or less of a need to really specialize in shoe type. If you're just starting out and the majority of your runs are just easy miles, you probably don't need to specialize too too much, but I think that more advanced you get in the sport and the more you're doing very specialized workouts you've got tempos and intervals and hills and races on the calendar, then it would be really important to specialize. And I was just doing some digging into the evidence, a few days ago, and did find that one of the protective factors for injury in the sport is having more than one pair of shoes. One study, like, I think it's generous, but they estimated that this is effect was, like, 40% reduction in injury rate. I don't think you can attribute that entirely to shoes. It probably has more to do with the characteristics of the individual as well. but that is something that that probably has some promise. Even if you are just a novice runner just starting out, even just having 2 pairs of daily trainers to rotate between such that you're not wearing them down, letting the cushion in, like, fully, rebound back to it. It's normal level beforehand. The last thing I'll say too is that, I think it is worth rotating trainers every 3 to 5 hundred miles. some people really wear it through their shoes, and you can just them over and look at the bottom and see that there's these wear patterns that become very evident. if you're scraping through, like, the black part of the sole into, like, the foam of the shoe, it's probably time to switch them out. and so I I would I would just recommend to the audience, like, you know, it's running shoes unfortunately are are fairly pricey, especially if you're going for, like, these higher end models. but it is a worthwhile investment, I think, to be rotating these shoes every 3 to 500 miles. because it's pretty obvious when your when a shoe breaks that. Sometimes you don't know until you switch shoes, But once you do get a new pair, you're like, oh, yeah. That feels totally different. and and to answer your question too, Corey, just to dive into that, why do we have different pairs of shoes? a lot of it will depend on the weight of the shoe, and the feel of the shoe. If I'm gonna do an interval workout, I'm gonna wanna really responsive poppy shoe, where I don't care as much about cushioning. I wanna just, like, put force into the ground and feel that rebound. and It's actually pretty interesting. For every, for every 100 grams of mass that you put on a shoe, the oxygen cost goes up by 1%. So weight does matter, especially if you extrapolate that over long enough periods of time. so when you're really trying to get after it, and you're doing those, like, really costly workouts, those VOT Max sessions, things like that, having a lightweight trainer would be really important.

Cory Nagler [00:10:55]: Yeah. No. And I think, I know the study you're referencing, and I I think generally, they're not they're not suggesting necessarily that you need 5 or 10 pairs of shoes, but that just rotating between at least 2 or 3 does have a reduction of of injury. But just moving on to more specifically what we're focusing on today, which is those racing shoes. You touch on another category, which is the racing spikes in contrast to what Haley mentioned, which is these super shoes. There are super spikes, but generally we think of these kind of very high cushion, highly responsive carbon plated shoes. So just recognizing that these are very different models, depending on what type of racing you're doing. is that, Alex, I'll bring this back to you. How do we broadly think about what is a racing shoe based on the specific circumstances of a runner and and what should a runner be looking for in their race day shoot?

Alex Ostberg [00:11:47]: Sure. And we were just talking offline before we jumped on and recorded here. The shoe market has basically been revolutionized over the past. I mean, it's changed so much in the past 3 to 5 years, such that now if you're looking for a racing shoe, you're exclusively really looking at what we call super shoes. and I know Haley touched on that. The biggest difference that I see is you've got a carbon fiber plate, and then the stack height is a lot higher. Nike pioneer this idea with the vapor fly that was released when they were trying to get LA to get Jogi to break 2 hours in the marathon where basically they started to go from, like, a road racing flat, which of our audience might be familiar with to then really drastically improve or increasing the stat height. So you're actually sitting way further up on the ground. And if you look at the alpha flies, which is, you know, one of the premier shoots that Nike makes, and, again, a lot of the top marathons will wear. I mean, you're sitting, like, almost it seems like an inch or 2 off the brown, but the whole reason is that they've figured out the engineers have figured out that, like, the way the carbon plate interacts with the zoom x foam, that's the most, that's the highest energy, return that you can get from from hitting the pavement. so so that's generally what it is This phone is also like very resilient. so it actually kind of does a little bit of the mechanical work of the foot for you. That's how I think about it. we actually kind of have a spring mechanism in our foot where we have an arch and then we have the planter, fastest stretch beneath it such that when you compress it, you do have some elastic energy that you can harness Well, it turns out that the super shoe is almost doing that for you to the point where I know that some parents of runners say, I don't wanna put my kids in super shoes while they're young. because I want them to develop the appropriate musculature and strength instead of letting the shoe do the work. Now, there are obvious advantages of using this technology, I mean, the studies are pretty convincing. I think people have differential effects on it. Some people might see a 1% improvement. Others might see a 5% improvement. So there is a spectrum of of, you know, how people will respond. I think a lot of that actually has to do with how you hit the ground. and I think people with a certain foot strike will benefit more. but, you know, it is pretty clear that if you wear a super shoe, you can get to mile 20 of a marathon with less damage in your tissues. Right? And and they've they've confirmed this in studies. They have had people do downhill treadmill runs, which are really damaging to the muscles. And then 48 hours later, a running economy. And when they wear super shoes or it's not super shoes, they're running economy. So their efficiency of movement is way better. So that only makes me think when you're at mile 20 and you're in a super shoe, your muscles have accumulated a lot less damage. So, you know, you're probably in a good spot to really accelerate and at least or maybe slow down not as much over the last, six miles.

Cory Nagler [00:14:34]: Yeah. And that's definitely a big change from our older models. And another topic we were kinda discussing before starting this recording is this idea of what racing shoes look like only 5 or 10 years ago before the super shoes, and they were really minimalist and would really break you down in a way that the the super shoes don't because they have so much more cushioning. Hailey, I know you talked more about the carbon plated shoes and and these these high stack earlier, they're more stripped down. So clearly, you're no stranger to these in in using them. I know you benefited from them in your own racing. Do you think these are something that benefit all runners, or do you think there's merit as well to using the same shoes that you train in on race day?

Coach Hayley [00:15:11]: Do you mean the super shoes specifically or racing?

Cory Nagler [00:15:15]: Well, I I guess either. Let let's start with the the super shoes specifically and then I guess kind of dive into if not the super shoes, what might you use instead if you still wanna have a separate pair of shoes for racing?

Coach Hayley [00:15:27]: Yeah. I mean, it's kinda I think it's still, kind of a big debate on how much CPGs help help slower on this because, obviously, they are developed for someone like Chotrogate, and he's probably doing, like, well, he's doing way sub-five minute mark for a marathon. and most of us aren't doing that. So, there's a big question mark over whether Steve and she's helped, like, the everyday runner as much as they do someone like Trogate. and there's been that has been studies on it, but I think it's it's still a bit inconclusive. quite recent study suggested that, the the kind of benefits to running economies. So sort of the energy cost of running, the amount that the super shoe, improves this is not as much for slower runners. So I think they looked at, run is doing, like, 8 minute mile and, like, 9 a half minute mile, and they found that, they already kind of got, like, a one to 1 a half some benefit in in running economy, compared to, like, the sort of quoted sort of 4¢ that that someone like Keytrading might get. So, slower runners or even like, even like quicker sort of everyday runners because we're still not running anywhere near as fast as, like, do we get do we get the same economy benefits, probably not. but there may still be a little bit of improvement there. So I guess it probably depends on, like, your budget and how much you're willing to pay for that potential probably smaller improvement. But then I think these studies are are always looking at kind of the economy benefits. But as we've just spoken about, these supersedes are all re are also preventing muscle breakdown. And, the studies haven't really looked at performance so much as looking at at the energy cost of running. So, I guess the question is, could Super Shoes also have additional performance benefits or even comfort benefits or slower runners in terms of preventing muscle breakdown, preventing, like, just, you know, if you're running a marathon, your feet start to hurt, it's gonna slow you down anyway. So super shoes can prevent that happening, then that's gonna be an additional benefit. So So I I think, I mean, I've changed my way of thinking on this a bit, but I think there are potentially benefits of Super Shoes for, a bit of a slower runner I think the studies might not necessarily reflect this. I think the one I I saw recently that showed that one's one and a half sense improvement in in running economy use, they look to, like, 5 minute runs on a treadmill. And I don't think that's gonna be comparable to looking at performance over a marathon because it's not, it's not gonna take into account those, that accumulated muscle fatigue that you're gonna get a mile 20 or the fact that that you're a keys or your, just your feet in general are gonna start hurting. I know I find the the CPU's really comfortable compared to anything I used to run-in my opinion. and that's got a healthy form as well. So I think even though studies may suggest that, everyday runners, slower runners might not get as much performance benefit from a super shoe. They probably don't yet tell the whole story, and I think we don't really fully know the answer to that question of how much to see if she was gonna benefit slower runners, but, I think I think now I would tell someone who who was maybe going for kind of a a

Finn Melanson [00:19:08]: 3

Coach Hayley [00:19:08]: a half, 4 hour marathon or or even so to to see how super shoes feel. And if if they have got the budget for that and they really are still focused on on time is there as performance as they may go to give them a go because they may still get quite significant benefit from them. But I think it does depend on the runner because all learners respond differently to see the shoes. So it's something that's that's worth trying. I mean, I know there was a Canadian runner. You might know who I'm talking about, an elite runner who tested a whole range of CPUs on the treadmill, but I think she ran at the same pace and kind of measure heart rates, and and found the super she that worked best for her. But I think for most of us, that's a bit not really necessary, and we can just get some idea by maybe doing a few shorter races in them or trying them and training to see we think they do have a resort, at least make our feet feel better.

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Cory Nagler [00:22:51]: Yeah. I I I do think I know which one are your your referencing and probably brand sponsorships played into that a little bit. Alex, I I know that Haley touched a little bit on some other considerations. There is the efficiency, but that's hard to measure, but there's also that level of of comfort or or that kind of mental perception as well. I guess, whether it's these carbon plated super shoes or these track racing spikes you touched on, are there any other reasons that a a runner want to consider using something other than these super shoes for their for their key goal races?

Alex Ostberg [00:23:26]: Well, I mean, I think you've hit on the 2 main points for sure. and I think we can start to get into secondary debates about where they might have benefit and value. the reality is if you're running a marathon, your foot's gonna hit the ground 35,000 times. Right? So that's a lot of impact. that's a lot of forces being transmitted through the foot up the leg. And so having a shoe that actually confer some kind of mechanical advantage, I I I would go for it. I mean, it's, it's legal. Like, the the shoes are out there. there was kind of they were kind of hotly contested in the beginning because not everyone access to them, but now they're they're widespread pretty much everything had their hands on them. So I think that debates out the window at this point. bigger question I have is is do they have any utility in a training program? how much should you wear them? And I know Haley briefly touched on that. I thought about this a lot because my coach recently switched us over to wearing super shoes in workouts, almost primarily, starting in 2022. And the thought process was Sure. You might be able to run, you know, like, 4:30 pace for the mile. You get a little bit of an advantage. but instead of running 4:40 and flat, essentially, that's the same effort. You're just getting the mechanical advantage. But his thought was maybe we can accumulate more volume in these shoes and get a larger cardiovascular benefit and metabolic benefit, without accruing as much damage. to me, that's a really interesting question. I think the jury is still out. and I again, Haley brings up a great point. It does depend on budget considerations because these super shoes don't last forever. you know, if you wear them for your 5th marathon, they're not gonna feel the same as the first. In fact, some people have told me they might only last about a hundred miles max. So they they do have a a much shorter shelf life than a daily trainer. and so I but I would say to the average person, we can go down the rabbit hole another time discussing if they have utility and workouts and daily training. But I think you should at least put them on for at a minimum, like, a 6 to 8 mile tempo or, or maybe, you know, couple of intervals because I've heard horror stories not just with super shooters of you never wanna be trying out equipment for the first time on race day. You know, like, one of the biggest things that stands between a marathon or finishing a marathon is something just like as simple as blisters. Right? Like, you don't wanna be blistering up during your marathon. you wanna focus on the fundamentals to make sure that she's a good fit. And it's not just a good fit for one mile, but, like, when you're running a marathon, your feet expand, blood will pool in the extremities So your your foot will fit a little bit different. So you wanna make sure that you've worn this. It's fully battle tested, and you're not gonna, like, reduce any of the, benefits by wearing them for like a 10 mile tempo or something like that. So I think a practical piece of advice is put these shoes on beforehand. if you wanna do If you have unlimited access to Super Shoes and you could do them all the time, then we could have a more nuanced discussion about if they have a place in kind of a daily workout routine, but definitely try and outperform it.

Cory Nagler [00:26:22]: For sure. And you you kinda touched on both. They have this impact of reducing fatigue, but then you also taught talked about, potentially they don't necessarily strengthen the muscles as much because they're moving around some of the load. How how should the average runner be be thinking about Is it as simple as kind of what feels good, or is there a more nuanced way you should be approaching? How often you use these ratios?

Alex Ostberg [00:26:45]: I think with anything, there are tools in a toolbox. and I think that if you exclusively trained in super shoes, you probably would start to lose some benefit. I mean, we know that, like, having some good foot proprioception, that's just a fancy way of saying, like, having a good feel of how the foot interacts the ground is important, right? And for instance, like, it's also important to develop some of those intrinsic muscles of the foot. there are studies out there that show that if you go around and you wear, like, a minimalist shoe, you will develop more cross sectional area in those muscles underneath the foot. if you wear super shoes all the time, I can only imagine that maybe those muscles wouldn't atrophy a little bit because they're not doing the same work. So I think it's something to keep in your repertoire, but you wanna rotate between multiple different pairs of shoes. That way, you get the benefits when you need them. but you don't get the assistance all the time. and, you know, such that you're being, like, mechanically helped to train all the time.

Cory Nagler [00:27:40]: Right. Okay. Yeah. So so wear them enough that you're comfortable and maybe you can benefit sometimes in workouts, but we're we're not by any means, I guess, based on what you've said suggesting you throw these on for absolutely every run even if you have unlimited funds. Is that that fair? Yeah. That's easy to have not.

Alex Ostberg [00:27:56]: Yeah. That would be my my general assessment. Okay.

Coach Hayley [00:28:00]: I know people who, do every single one of them. And, yeah, I don't agree with it. Like, I think you need to to keep some different trainers in there because they are doing some of the work for your feet and lower leg muscles. I know that even though I was only training in them kind of twice a week, I I even tried to move away from that a bit because I think that I felt as if I was using a little bit of strength in my feet and lower leg muscles. So I I wanted to make sure I was wearing kind of a lightweight trainer as well just to make sure I was working all those in my feet. I think wearing them kind of up to two times a week for workouts is is kind of okay, but anything more than that, I'm I'm like hesitant to recommend to people, really.

Cory Nagler [00:28:44]: Yeah. No. That that makes a lot of sense. And I I I think I I do wanna caveat also that running is supposed to be fun if you have love running in these shoes. It shouldn't hold you back, but maybe just make sure that you're throwing in some other shoes there so that you're not not losing that ability to be able to be comfortable with different models and not losing some of that that strength and proprioception in your foot. So, Haley, I wanna fully dive into the the main topic today, which is specifically, like, once we're focusing on those ratios and looking at those, how does an individual find the best one for them? So I guess maybe both for yourself, what do you look for when you're deciding what type of racing shoe you wanna wear on race day and then maybe for other types of runners, whether that's different distances or, different different levels of ability and experience. what should a runner look for to find the shoe that's right for them?

Coach Hayley [00:29:36]: Yeah. I mean, for me, it it all comes down to comfort and how it feels I like to try some different shoes to see what feels best because at the end of the day, that's the main thing for me. I think it's, like, premature to kind of say that this type of run up with this type of foot strike will suit this kind of shoe because I don't think there's, like, enough data and studies on that. I know that, ethics has 2 different super shoes and they say that, a certain type of runner with a certain type of of gate is supposed to be better in 1 and the different type of runner, with a different type of gate is supposed to be better in another, but I also heard a kind of, biomechanical scientist say recently that actually he's tested on us in both, and it doesn't work out that way at all. So, I think that although companies might try and say, oh, this, this is better for people who are like this. This is better for people who don't like this. Actually, we don't know what works for a particular person at all. So the main thing for me is just how it feels to you. if it feels really uncomfortable straight away, I don't really subscribe to the view that it's gonna, you know, what your fee's gonna work into it and it's gonna start to feel great, but never really happened to me. All the shoes that, all the shoes that I've ended up thinking, oh, this is really good shit. It feels really good on my foot. they felt like that pretty soon after wearing them. my racing shoe choice is based purely off of which I mean, I have gone for a super cheap because I think the the benefits are are worth it for me, but, I've gone for the one that feels comfortable for me. I don't know if that's the fastest that I really, I mean, there are probably ways to to have a look at that. You could you could do a little bit of an experiment on yourself. Like, right? think some elite ones are done, but it probably isn't gonna be the most scientific unless you've got all the equipment and everything. So I think going for the one that feels the best is your best your best choice really, if you can go to, like, a running store or try on a couple says on the Jamvell. I think that's gonna be the best way to see what's gonna work for you. I know that a lot of people really like the vaporfly, and I wanted to like that one because I thought, oh, you know, this is the one that everyone's wearing. This was a bit earlier when it kind of wasn't when everyone was wearing, but I ended up being the only one on a start line once not wearing it just because it didn't feel good to me. And I know it feels good to a lot of people, but for me, It just, it didn't feel like it worked for my foot. It felt really awful kind of straight away. but a lot of people love it. So, everyone's just so unique, and I don't think we can make any kind of rules about someone with this book strike will will do well and miss you. I think it's what feels best for use. So the best way to to tell is just to to give it a go. I mean, a lot of a lot of ground these days have kind of a buy it and try it and you can send it back if you don't like it in, like, 30 days or whatever. I mean, that's what I did with the makeup life. So they kind of went back. and I think that's a really good way to to try them and see what she is because they are really expensive. They're quite an investment all the time. So if there are brands that are offering a shoe that you can you can try and send back even if you want it, if you don't like it, that's like a really good way to to give shoes a try. if you are gonna try a sleep shoe, I recommend trying, like, a Nike, a Saucony Anna Assets because they've they've kind of had a lot of different iterations of of their shoes. So they've improved upon it. And, they've kind of kind of developed it. And if her people say, if you try those 3, then you, there's gonna be one that does feel good for you. But then again, there are, like, lots of other great bands as well. So you get the chance to try, like, any particular power, like, go for it. Like, you don't know what's gonna feel best for you and that's the most important thing at the end of the day because, I mean, if you're doing a math, then you've got a long time to have it on your feet. And like Alex says, blisters, I can easily ruin a math, and ads can a little bit of foot pain. Like, I've tried a super shoe and the first workout I did in it, I thought it felt fast. I thought you weren't bugging it, but it just it got like a little pain under my foot, but I thought, well, that's a bit weird. And it was definitely the shoe because I tried it again. So I thought, no. I'm not gonna go over that one. So I think, yeah, try it. see how you get on. That's that's the best way to find a ratio. That's how I've always done it. I've always just gone with the one that feels comfortable straight away. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:34:07]: Yeah. No. I I love that approach. I I am curious, though, in terms of your definition of comfort. Just for myself, I'm envisioning you mean on the run, but I know I've tried on different super shoes, whether it's like the alpha fly, which is another Nike model or the vapor fly. A lot of these super shoes, because they're so high stack when you're walking around, they kind of feel you're walking on still, so almost fine. Like, even if they're comfortable running, they may not be comfortable walking. Is do you find the same, or do you think you can tell just by kind of putting it on?

Coach Hayley [00:34:36]: Yeah. And I think running for main thing, of course. Like, it's what they feel like running. I mean, I'm not gonna say if something feels a bit weird when walking around and then that it's not gonna feel great running. Like, I wouldn't I wouldn't write off a shoe that that feels awful when you're standing around and, or walking around it. I mean, for me, the one that I chose did actually feel pretty good as soon as I put it on. And the ones that I didn't choose didn't feel that great, but, like, I know I guess I've been trialing a lot of different shoes for a long time. I have a lot of kind of my mind has a lot of different shoe memories to go with maybe, but, like, running is definitely the main the main way to test it. and don't write one off if it doesn't feel great when you're just walking around again because they do feel a little bit weird when you walk around them, to be honest. So it definitely wouldn't wouldn't write them off. I think for me, just the way it sort of kind of holds my foot and sits on my foot, when I'm not running it, it's also really important. but, like, I do find that as an issue for me because the shape of my foot is get one that fit differently. And I know There's probably there are probably people listening have a similar issue. and that's probably where you might be more able tell when you just kind of put it on and walk around in there whether it's gonna work for you. But running is the main way to tell. So if you do go and try morning issues, still make sure they've got a way that you can you can run around and then maybe a treadmill or, at least that they let you take them for a little one about.

Cory Nagler [00:36:02]: Yep. Alex, is this the same approach you take or that you recommend to your athletes?

Alex Ostberg [00:36:08]: Absolutely. Yeah. I think, you know, one thing I did wanna touch on was I think there's a lot of misconceptions about shoe type and flip type and trying to match those 2 things, trying to get the perfect fit. And I used to work in a shoe store. I'm not trying to bankrupt the shoe industry. I think most of it's bogus, honestly. I think a lot of our beliefs around shoes are wrapped up in brilliant marketing tactics and really good salespeople on the floor. and so I'm not saying that shoe stores don't have any value. They absolutely do. They have value because you can go in and simultaneously compare multiple models. but the the expectation that a shoe, that one particular shoe is the only shoe that's ever gonna work for you or that one shoe can prevent from getting injured. I just never buy in for that narrative. I think it's pretty firmly established by now. What they can do is, a, it can improve your running economy. Right? The energy cost of running can improve that's been pretty clearly documented. I think B probably could run longer with less damage. That's also been documented. But this idea that a shoe itself can, like, prevent an injury from happening, I just really don't buy it. I I I was doing a little bit of research that proved my point, and they they've done a lot of studies with the mill with, like, military people because they have less of a choice and they're just indoctrinated into the system. And they find that when they gave military recruits, a stability shoe to control proproneation or just a neutral shoe, there was no difference in injury rates. In fact, the people who got the stability shoe for pronation actually got injured more than the people with the neutral shoe. and everyone will say, like, you know, overpronation is the worst possible thing for your foot, blah blah blah. And I'm just, like, it's actually a natural part of the foot strike. And overpronation is not particularly well defined anyway by the medical medical literature. so I would just say you know, shoe companies can exploit your ignorance if you're not an educated consumer. So I would go in with a little bit of your guard up And I would say the best way to do it is to go and try on 4 to

Finn Melanson [00:38:08]: 5

Alex Ostberg [00:38:08]: different pairs of shoes and just use comfort as a filter. like, that's pretty much what the evidence says. you know, in like another study where they looked at 11,000 runners across 12 randomized controlled trials. The conclusion was, and I'll quote, certainty of evidence determining whether different types of shoes, running shoes actually influence running injury rates was very low to low, and there's no evidence that scrubbing footwear based on foot type reduces running related lower limb injuries in adults. So at that point, all you're left with really is comfort. and I would argue that most people could probably start with a neutral trainer, but if a stability shoe feels more comfortable, fine then then go with the stability shoe. but I don't think you need, like, a certain amount of support just purely based on the way your foot is shaped or the primate formation that you have. I mean, A lot of people will hide these tactics in complexity. They'll put you on a foot scan. They'll do a little a very hastily done gate analysis. And unless there's a professional bio mechanism working there, I I would take that with a grain of salt. and I would just use your own judgment as the primary way to evaluate.

Cory Nagler [00:39:12]: Yeah. I'm I'm I'm curious to dive a little bit more into this idea of a neutral versus stability shoe because I think there's a lot of marketing around that and most people don't necessarily know exactly what that means. And a lot of the time, especially a few years ago, used to see these stores really, really pushing stability models and maybe people being hesitant to try on more traditional racers because of that. To my knowledge, generally, what separates these stability shoes is some kind of, mechanism in the side of the shoe that keeps keeps your foot from walking around too much. I guess just maybe it is that kind of your understanding as well. And then also when it when it comes to stability, it are there other elements that runner should look for? Be it kind of width of the shoe or how comfortable litter is, or is it really just complete marketing bogus?

Alex Ostberg [00:39:59]: Well, I think some of these things are baked together. Right? So if you have a wide foot, a wider will feel more comfortable. So that makes sense. And in terms of the the, stability issue, yes, it it my understanding, again, having worked as a salesman and a shoe store before is the posting that goes on the inside of the shoe. So they build up the inside of the shoe such that your, basically, your foot doesn't roll inwards as much. And when they dug these studies, they found that, like, it does stability issue does meaningfully change the range of motion as in, like, your ankle will tilt in, unless your foot will roll off the ground a little different, but it doesn't change your actual path of movement. So, like, and you also have to beg the question, is putting a little bit of posting right underneath the arch actually gonna meaningfully change the way that it sure it may change with the way that your actual foot interacts with the ground, but, you know, when we're talking about running injuries and if this has any hope of preventing running injuries, You have an entire kinetic chain stacked above it, including how the ankle moves, how the knee moves, and how the hip moves. And if you're telling me that if you isolate one part of the stride, that will solve all of your problems. I'm gonna be a little bit skeptical.

Cory Nagler [00:41:03]: Yeah. Haley, do you think about it the same way? Do you tend to look at all whether a shoe is neutral or stability, or is it kind of just all about feel as you're running?

Coach Hayley [00:41:12]: I totally agree with Alex on that one. I think, you know, I don't I wouldn't necessarily say that the degree of pronation means that you need a particular type of shoe. I think it's all about what feels best to you. I think the evidence for these different types of of motion control shoes and whether they prevent injury, which is the main thing we want, oh, here's an do they event injury or not. And I think the studies are really they're just not there to show that this is actually a thing and that, it's great for the, you know, shoe companies to market these different lights of shoes, but, any evidence for them actually preventing injury is is just not there. so you know, I've never if someone's been running in, like, a neutral shoe for a really long time and, they would, like, because I used to work in a shoe store as well. and then they if they would come in and I would look at them running and say, like, say they pruneate a lot, I would never then say, oh, you you pruneate too much. You need like a stability issue because, you know, there's no evidence for that. And also changing what they're doing is like, dramatically changing the shoe type that they wear, it's gonna be so much worse than it was gonna be the worst thing we can do, like, suddenly putting them in a completely different shoe. If they've been fine, with a neutral shoe for the last 5 years. Why in the world would I want them to put them in a stability shoe? that was always Actually, one of the first things I would do if someone came into to the shoe store when I used to work, I was to look, was to say to them, you know, what have you been wearing the last few years. And have you had any problems with it? And if that was, like, a stability shoe, then I try and keep them in a stability shoe. If that was a neutral shoe, I try and keep them a neutral shoe irrespective of what I thought their their foot type would be. because, you know, I also agree with the fact that we don't know what a normal amount of pronation is. We don't know what, you know, what is is there an optimal amount of pronation? We don't really know. Like, in some studies, people who who over prony, they actually get less injuries. so why would we wanna stop that? and why would we wanna change a type of shoe they've been wearing. If they've been happy with it the last

Finn Melanson [00:43:31]: 5

Coach Hayley [00:43:31]: years, what's worked in the past was always a big thing I looked at when I worked in the shoe store. And probably my colleagues, some of them wanted me to say, to say, oh, you need this kind of shoe, but You know, unless my boss was was around, I wouldn't do that. So, yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:43:52]: So, Hailey, let's just bring this. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Alec.

Alex Ostberg [00:43:55]: Well, I just wanted to bring up one more point too. I think if the shoe industry thinks that they're really doing something earth shattering, then they should be able to make a convincing argument that running related injury rates have gone down. And at least in the United States, they have not changed at all in the past 40 years. So that makes me think maybe it's less because we have seen significant changes in shoe technology. I mean, we were basically running in, like, rubber boots in, like, the thirties and forties. I'm exaggerating, but you get my point. And so I think if if we were to argue if it's a shoe alone, that is either the cause or, this is a cause of an injury or lack thereof, then those injury rates should have changed over the years. And to my knowledge, it remained very stable.

Cory Nagler [00:44:37]: Yeah. No. That that's a good call out as well. So I think bearing that in mind, so clearly there's a lot of marketing involved in these labels, whether that be stability or neutral or motion control or whatever other title. Just bringing this all back to racing shoe and what that means. Maybe a runner is experiencing these, but some people may be looking to try a racing shoe or a super shoe on for the first time. Whether whatever type of shoe you're using for your daily training, if you're approaching this for the first time, a lot of these shoes just by nature by being high stack and very aggressive can feel unstable, but is the right approach then if you're finding something that works for you is is it that comfort piece? Is that that what you're looking for? Is that I'll take wear. Is there anything else really that's specific to racing shoes? Oh, sorry.

Coach Hayley [00:45:25]: Yep.

Alex Ostberg [00:45:25]: No. I think that's the biggest area from my perspective. Yes. Yes. Mhmm. Hey. You can jump in.

Coach Hayley [00:45:30]: Yeah. I I was just gonna agree as well. Like, it's all about how it feels. all about what's comfortable on your feet. and they do they do have different super shoes do feel different amounts of of stable. So that's why it's worth trying some different ones and seeing what feels best. That's really the main thing.

Cory Nagler [00:45:48]: Okay. I think that's an awesome takeaway because it's something that is very applicable to everyone. You know, not everyone can go and hop on a treadmill and know what efficiency is, but anyone can try on a pair of shoes and see if they feel comfortable. So having moved on from that, I know we've talked a lot about how each of us approach is this idea of picking out a racing shoe or a trainer. I wanna finish off by talking a little bit about some of our favorites. So I guess maybe I'll I'll give everyone the opportunity to kinda say both a favorite trainer if you want, but then in particular, if you have any favorite racing shoes. So Alex, why don't you go first? And then Haley, I I know you kind of alluded to this as well, so I really wanna hear your list as well.

Alex Ostberg [00:46:28]: Okay. Well, I'm gonna give a little bit of a snarky answer to this and that I actually, I have always thought that, like, the shoe itself doesn't really matter that much. And I've been fortunate enough to be running for, like, a college program. At least I was the past, 5, 6 years, and I was given shoes, and I just wore whatever it was given to me. so, I mean, I developed a a liking for the Nike pegasus because that was what was provided at at my university, and I stuck with it. And, any injuries that I did have, I I don't think I could attribute that to the shoe. I thought it was thought it was comfortable. I thought it was good. I do think that when I tried on the Nike paper fly for the first time, again, I was a part of Nike sponsored school, so we really had no flexibility. Haley probably is way more input in other brands. but when I tried on the Nike vapor fly, I was like, okay, they're there's something here. and then when I would complete workouts, I would just my legs would feel a lot less zapped than they would otherwise. I would have a little bit more energy it'd show a little less speed up, and then that would even carry over to the next day. Whereas, like, if I were to do a workout, sometimes my calves and my Achilles would be, like, dreadfully sore the next day after speed work. But after putting on the super shoes, it's like, yeah. No. There's something here. I feel it. So again, I wanna make the point, just to prove that I don't think any one shoe is always gonna be the perfect solution for you. And I think I can be successful on a whole bunch of different types of issues. but if I were to if I were to, cave in and give you one answer, I'd say, yeah, I guess this

Cory Nagler [00:48:01]: Alright, Alex. I'm I I I know you don't necessarily wanna recommend one shoe for everyone, but just for yourself, if you're lacing up, say, a road 5 k the next day, Is the vapor fly your shoe of choice? And if so, which model?

Alex Ostberg [00:48:14]: So, yeah, if I was racing up for a roadside here tomorrow, I would probably up on my Nike Vaporfly version 2. I know the 3 just came out. I have not actually had a chance to try those on yet, but I'd pop on the twos because that's what I've got in my closet.

Cory Nagler [00:48:29]: Awesome. Okay, Haley. And then over to you, what are your favorite shoes, trainer, or then racing shoe as well for sure?

Coach Hayley [00:48:36]: Yeah. So my favorite shoe to train in, is the Saucony Guide, and I've been wearing them for, like, a really long time. And I just can't even remember why I started wearing them, but I I've tried to try other shoes along the way, but, like, nothing feels comfortable to me. and then for racing, I I kind of had a bit of time off around the time that Super Youth kind of came in. So I kind of stopped racing for a bit before super shoes came out. And then I kinda came back to racing, and there was all these super shoes. So, I just went through, like, them all and tried basically a lot of super cheese to see what felt best for me. and the one I actually chose, is the Saucony and Dolphin Pro. and, like, nothing feels as good to me as that. And, actually, I have tried others that I feel like they make me run a little bit faster, but at the end of the day, I need to feel comfortable for a whole map then. So, yeah, I just my favorite shoe is the endorphin probes. It just feels so comfortable to me, the Pro 2, actually, just because I I stuck with it while you can still get it. I've not tried the Pro 3 yet, but I'm excited to try that one as well. I tried the bait fly, and it didn't feel that comfortable to me. I really wanted to like it because I've had such great things about it. And I'm sure for for many people, that is that is a great sheet, but I just didn't it didn't seem like the I will say that I have, like, quite a wide format, so that probably influences a lot of what feels comfortable to me. So but I really like that shirt. It feels really comfortable, and my feet feel really, really cushioned, and, and pretty nice for, like, long runs and Americans. So That's that's the reason I went for it.

Cory Nagler [00:50:26]: Nice. And and I was gonna ask about the model specifically because I love the endorphin Pro 12, but I actually did have the chance to try on the 3. And I found for me it was just a little felt a little bulky for racing, so interested. I'll have to touch base offline to to hear what you think about that. I I I will circle back. I know a popular one, partly because it used to be one of the first super choosest that they perform. I have to say for me, if I'm picking that one shoe for race day, it probably is that version 2. I I haven't tried version 3 yet, but love that. as well, though, I I have been liking for shorter races heliox. I don't know if you've tried it, but the, Puma deviate elite nitro, I find it's just a little lower to the ground. So it's it's easier to turn, which can get challenged with some of these super shoes.

Alex Ostberg [00:51:10]: I actually have one that's true. I really like that one too. Yep. I actually have. I

Cory Nagler [00:51:15]: actually it's it's on the running store stamp of approval.

Alex Ostberg [00:51:20]: Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:51:21]: Any any other honorable mentions to call out?

Coach Hayley [00:51:25]: I like the the Saucony speed. as well. but I don't really race in it, but I find it really comfortable for for, like, tempo workouts and intervals. So, I've heard a lot of people say that's quite comfortable one. So, you know, it's just a coincidence that they're all Saucony. They must kind of fit might be quite well in my foot shape. Yeah. And not, like, not currently sponsored by the red thing. It just it just happened that way. So

Finn Melanson [00:51:49]: --

Cory Nagler [00:51:50]: Yeah. If you find something that works, don't mess with it. And I think that's a good example as well. We kind of touched on. Does everybody need to wear a super shoe? And I think the the endorphin speed, it it, you know, it's it's I think it has some kind of, plastic or or nylon plate as opposed to carbon, so maybe not quite specifically labeled as a as a super shoe, but certainly feels light and poppy and fast. So definitely alternatives out there

Alex Ostberg [00:52:14]: as well.

Coach Hayley [00:52:16]: Yeah. It's a lot more like, it's more affordable, you know, quite cheaply. So if you wanna try some that's not quite a cheap issue, but does have some of those benefits of the super shoot. It's probably a good a good thing to try. it's a nylon plate. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:52:28]: Awesome. I'll definitely all good shoes. I will definitely have to try on the the paper fly 3. I don't know about you, Alex, just to kinda compare it and see how that one feels, but I've loved this. I know personally I love talking about shoes, be it super shoes or trainers. so Haley and Alex awesome to have both your expertise, especially since you both, not only coach, but have worked in running stores. This was a great conversation. So thank you both for, for joining me today.

Alex Ostberg [00:52:53]: Hey, it's Troy. It's been

Coach Hayley [00:52:55]: a pleasure. Oh, it's great to talk about shoes.

Cory Nagler [00:52:58]: Awesome. Couldn't agree more. Thanks, everyone. And for those listening, happy running.

Finn Melanson [00:53:17]: Thanks for listening to the run to the top podcast. I'm your host, Finn Malansen, as always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. Please consider connecting with me on instagram at wasatch Finn and the rest of our team at Runners Connect also consider supporting our show for free with a rating on the Spotify and Apple Pod best players. And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with our guests, and premiere access to contests and giveaways, and subscribe to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netback/ podcast. Until next time, happy trading.