How to be faster and healthier as a female runner

Finn Melanson [00:00:09]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn Melanson, and this is the Run to the Top podcast, the podcast Cast dedicated to making you a better runner with each and every episode. We are created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect One of my favorite things about running is that it's inclusive, and just about Anybody can participate with not much more than a decent pair of running shoes. This doesn't mean that we all have the same experience, though, and today's show will be all about Special considerations for female athletes. This is obviously not my personal area of expertise, but our coaches Andy and Haley do an amazing job of breaking down how female athletes can perform their best. Whatever your age or lifestyle, they'll be diving into how you can stay healthy, happy, and fit as a female runner. This is a pretty broad topic, so we'll be covering everything from how to train around the menstrual cycle, specific fueling needs for female athletes, Why fasted runs may not be recommended, why losing your period can be a warning sign for runners, and what to do if this happens to you, and many more topics I'm confident You'll relate to if you're a female runner. I think you'll find this topic super interesting even if you're a fellow male athlete like myself.

Finn Melanson [00:01:31]: So stay tuned, and I will pass it over to our showrunner, Corey and expert female coaches Andy and Haley. If you're Tired of dirty and wet seats after your winter runs? Then you have to check out the car seat covers made specifically for runners from dry seats. Head to dri seats.com to learn more, and use code r c two zero to get 20% off your first

Cory Nagler [00:02:06]: Hello, runners, and welcome to a female This edition of our Run to the Top podcast. As Finn mentioned, today we're giving the spotlight to all of you amazing female athletes out there With unique considerations that go into training as a woman, it's only fitting that we've brought on 2 very fast women from our own coaching team Who are absolutely crushing it, both in running and in life. Let's welcome today, Andy Cozzarelli and Haley Munn, Who have each run marathons in the 2 thirties and coached countless athletes to b q's, all while managing other work and family responsibilities. Great to have you both with me today and I could not think of a better duo to speak on this topic.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:02:44]: Hey, Corey. Thanks for having us.

Cory Nagler [00:02:47]: Absolutely. I'm excited to get into this. Just to kind of warm it up for our listeners, Andy Healy, do either of you wanna comment on why is it that We might have special running considerations as a as a female athlete.

Coach Hayley [00:03:00]: Yeah. I think the main thing is Just because we have different hormones, than men, namely estrogen and progesterone, And we have a lot less testosterone. And this different hormone or profile changes a lot of our, kind of, the way we behave physiologically. And also the fact that throughout our lives, we experience a lot of fluctuations In these hormones, due to kind of different events, you know, there's pregnancy. There's menstruation. And there's menopause. And at all these times, our hormonal profiles look very different, whereas with men, they are Quite similar really throughout life. So, because these hormones do affect so many different functions and the way our body behaves, It doesn't mean that we train.

Coach Hayley [00:03:58]: We need to train a little bit differently for men because our body's gonna respond a bit differently to training and, benefit from kind of slightly different things than than male athletes.

Cory Nagler [00:04:09]: Yeah. For sure. Andy, anything to add to that?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:04:12]: Yeah. I think that there's, like, a lot of things that we don't even expect too that can can influence us, and there's also Just not as much research out there to really help us to understand what's happening to female athletes because of our changing hormones. And so, I think that's why it's it's hard to know exactly what we should be doing, but there's more and more research out there that I think is is, gonna be helpful and influential for Female athletes for from, you know, for years to come, so I'm I'm glad it's out there. But, yeah, there are some considerations that we have to, you know, recognize and maybe even tailor our training to. So

Cory Nagler [00:04:47]: Yeah. For sure. So let's kind of dive into the first of those topics, that I want to discuss today, which is kind of Training around the menstrual cycle. Obviously, I'm no expert in this area. So, Hayley, do you maybe wanna tell us depending where you're at in your cycle, How would this influence your training?

Coach Hayley [00:05:06]: Yeah. So, just to to quickly summarize the female menstrual cycle, There's kind of different phases. And the way most people classify this is with a follicular phase, which is, like, from when bleeding begins to kind of around the middle of your cycle, when you ovulate. And then after that, you have the luteal phase, which people think of as a high hormone phase. That's when your your levels of of the female hormones, estrogen progesterone, are very are kind of high comparatively to to the first half of your cycle. And I think the first thing to mention is that the experts kind of agree on this, that there isn't Any kind of blanket recommendations for women about how to train around their cycle? Because it is so individual, amongst women and even between cycles. There's not there's nothing, like, that everyone should do or that everyone can expect. So the most important thing to do is to to track your own cycle, And monitor, you know, how you feel at different points, what symptoms you have.

Coach Hayley [00:06:14]: And then make changes based on that, on what you're noticing. But also, kind of expecting within that that it's not probably gonna be the same, like, every month. I know that for me, I found things that are kind of true, but, like, they're not necessarily the same each month. I think there's definitely things that are common that some women kind of report. I think a lot of women do Feel a bit better in that follicular phase, so the first half of their cycle, because female hormones are a bit lower. And if that is you, it does make sense to kind of Maybe try and get in, like, a bit more training, in that phase. And then, like, you know, if you're gonna increase Or get in any really hard workouts, that would be a good time to do it. But then that's not necessarily true for everyone.

Coach Hayley [00:06:58]: So it is about seeing And how your body feels and keeping kind of track and monitoring. And then, you know, a lot of people report not feeling so great in the second half of That cycle in that luteal phase, so after ovulation until day 1 of bleeding. But, you know, not everyone again Feels worse then, but it is kind of a commonly reported thing to feel a bit worse then. And there are some kind of physiological reasons why you might, Not that you necessarily will. But things like there's there's, kind of, an increase in in your body temperature then, so you might not deal as well with the heat. And that's, you Something that's important to take into account if you are training in warm weather or or racing in warm conditions. And then, You know, there's also, kind of a little bit of an increase in metabolic rate. So something to take into account to make sure you are fueling enough in that In that phase, and if you are someone who feels not so good during that time, I mean, you can feel a bit more fatigued, A bit kind of heavier due to kind of, like, bloating and things, especially if you get kind of premenstrual symptoms, then that's just a time to to think maybe You wait, like, you know, really push it during that time.

Coach Hayley [00:08:17]: And that's definitely not to say that you should kind of rest then or, like, not do any heart training then. But, like, You can you can kind of take steps to modify, pay more attention to sleep and nutrition. Sleep is something athletes do kinda commonly also struggle with during So just kind of paying attention to sleep hygiene, things like that. And, you know, if if you do struggle with PMS, that's something to take into account That might affect training. But, you know, even though there are kind of physiological differences, women have Set PB is at all, stages of the menstrual cycle, so there isn't necessarily a reason to panic if you do have a race any kind of the high hormone, the luteal phase either, because it doesn't necessarily mean that you're not gonna perform well. And to be honest, studies looking at this haven't shown, like, any any kind of really significant changes to key performance indicators like POT max symptomatic threshold. And even if they have shown, like, a a kind of small decrease, which, is all they ever really have shown, then it's there's still, like, a lot of individual variation amongst that, where some women don't actually see that. And some women may even have kind of better responses with those markers.

Coach Hayley [00:09:38]: And then some studies have shown a slight decrease in kind of recovery, And marks the recovery during that time. But, again, that doesn't apply to everyone. And the same is individual variation. So I think to sum up, it's it's really just about, kind of, monitoring your individual response and and keeping track. I, sort of, definitely keep, kind of, track of my symptoms each cycle and How my body's responding and then kind of use that to to try things. And that's definitely a lot better than giving any kind of blanket recommendations. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:10:09]: For sure. And as a male athlete, I think obviously not something I have to keep track of in the typical routine as you're going through race prep. There might be kind of 3 to 4 weeks of a build and then take a rest week afterwards. If you're trying to train around that menstrual cycle, are you kind of Building in those rest weeks during that high hormone phase, or is it mostly just a consideration to kind of track how you're feeling?

Coach Hayley [00:10:35]: Yeah. I think it's the latter. Because, I think I personally do notice a little bit of, Maybe a drop in recovery or not feeling quite so great in in kind of the high hormone phase. Maybe sort of, a week out from my from my period. But it's never been enough for me to think, oh, I need to really kind of plan around that. And I think one thing Is it there's so many other variables as well as a menstrual cycle. Like, you know, your life stress, how well you're sleeping, the other things that are going on that you just can't, I don't think plan it like that really. I mean, if you are really badly affected as some athletes are, it could be something you could look at trying.

Coach Hayley [00:11:18]: I just think for most of us, it's probably, you know, just small tweaks to nutrition, sleep, hydration. We can manage it. We can still train hard during that time. And trying to say this is always going to be a down week. This is always gonna be an easier week. It hasn't worked for me, and I don't think it would work well for for many people just because, you know, it might be that actually your life stress and your sleep It's turned out to be really good during that time. And you think, actually, despite, you know, being in a high hormone phase, I can actually train quite well at this time. I mean, that's definitely been how how it's worked out for me.

Coach Hayley [00:11:54]: So it it's not something that I've ever actually considered. Although I am moderately affected by some symptoms, it's not been enough and it hasn't made sense. And I think a lot of female athletes find similar.

Cory Nagler [00:12:06]: Right. And then how might, I guess, something like Hormonal contraception play into this just because, obviously, as you've touched on, the hormones are such a key part of the the role that the menstrual cycle plays and and the impact on training.

Coach Hayley [00:12:22]: Yeah. Again, like, hard to give blanket recommendations or really good data because there just haven't been the studies. And it's so individual again. And not to mention, there's so many different types of contraception now. You know, there's patches and injections and different types of pills with Different hormone concentrations. I think it's very hard to say, with the fact that there are so many different kind of formulations of hormonal contraception. And, there's so much of an individual response, and there's not the studies. I don't think we can really say that this is gonna affect this person that way or this is gonna affect this person that way.

Coach Hayley [00:12:58]: I think, again, it's very much a kind of try it and see how you feel. Have a conversation with your doctor. And, you know, if something isn't working for you, There's there's so many options. I know, personally, I I tried an oral contraceptive pill when I was younger. I didn't find that it worked well for me. I did get some side effects. I didn't feel good on it. But, also, there are different Contraceptor pills now with lower concentrations of hormones, so it's not such an issue.

Coach Hayley [00:13:30]: I know For some athletes, it still is an issue though. And they don't feel quite as good at on the oral contraceptive pill, Or on any kind of hormonal contraception, although, they are so different. And there is options for those athletes as well. I actually, You know, for the time that I was competing at the highest level, I actually had a had a copper IUD, so no hormones involved at all. That was a little bit because of of my experiences with the pill, But also because I personally used my own cycle to check that I was Kind of training and fueling healthily. Well, I tried to anyway. And we're gonna I know we're going to go into depth about that later, how your your cycle is A clue to how your body is coping with your train blood. So, the problem with a lot of of methods of contraception is that they can actually cause you to lose a period or they can mask the loss of a period, which I think is a real negative for female athletes because Because getting your cycle is can be an indicator of health.

Coach Hayley [00:14:38]: So I think that's my issue with a lot of forms of contraception is that they Either caused you to lose your period so you don't know if you've lost it because of that or because you're under fueling overtraining or, they called you to continue to have a period when without it, you might not. So that's always been my kind of biggest concern with hormonal contraception. However, that being said, I know that it is really helpful for a lot of athletes, and it can also do things like help with With premenstrual symptoms for a lot of athletes, I think it's just a really individual thing. In terms of studies, there are some studies that suggest that The oral contraceptive pill can cause a a small decrease in performance and a small decrease in recovery. But, again, it's just So individual women, that's for the individuals within that study were so kind of has such differing responses that it's hard to say Sure that that would happen. And, actually, if that contraceptive pill was then helping the athlete control a really heavy cycle or Really about PMS symptoms, that small decrease in performance recovery might actually be taken away. So it's really individual and something that is kind of a decision based on on an athlete and their circumstances to me.

Cory Nagler [00:15:56]: Yeah. So when you're working with an athlete, Going through this, is it just a matter of kind of their own feelings? Or is this something that needs to consult with a coach or a doctor? What what does that process, I guess, look like?

Coach Hayley [00:16:11]: Yeah. I think a doctor, preferably like a gynecologist, is is the best person to talk to. I mean, a lot of people have something that they're they're using already. And if it's working for them, I say, like, you know, just continue with with what is working for you. But if If you're you're finding that it's giving you side effects or you're thinking that perhaps you want it and you want to come off it to check that You are naturally menstruating and therefore not, hopefully, dramatically under fueling or over trainee, then, that's then time to have a conversation with your your doctor or or your gynecologist to see what your options are and what might be a better option for you.

Cory Nagler [00:16:53]: Right. Okay. Yeah. I think that's that's good advice. And, Andy, I know as Haley's touched on, the answer is just about always gonna be it depends. But we talked a little about the high hormone phase. Do you have any insights on kind of in general for athletes, if there's ways to identify how that might be affecting them?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:17:12]: Yeah. So I think she touched on a good bit of these, but, yeah, we have the our body's not able to cool ourselves As easily, there's our sweating mechanisms actually change a little bit, so that creates a little bit more internal body heat, so you'll reach that internal core temperature That we don't wanna go over quicker, so when it is really warm, we may find ourselves feeling almost overheated because our body's just not sweating and cooling itself as well. And so that can happen in the high hormone phase, which is why, you know, if you're training in the summer, you may find that you're feeling those effects of the high hormone phase maybe a little bit more if it's hot or humid, and so that's one thing to really consider. Another is that we we don't recover as well. So, one thing that I've seen recommended, and like Haley said, it can be different from everybody, is that if you're really feeling the effects of some of the recovery stuff, What you can do is you do your your some of your bigger, harder efforts in the, lower hormone phase or during that follicular phase. And during the luteal phase, you can do still do mileage, do easy running, push the mileage more, but do less less of the heavy strength training, do left less of the really hard intense workouts. And so just kind of, like, switching up what you're doing in those phases. But, again, it's really just one of those things that's, like, you can You can tailor it based on how you're feeling.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:18:30]: And if you're not having, like, these huge swings because of your hormones, then you may not necessarily need to do all that stuff. If you're feeling, like, When you hit that higher hormone phase that you're getting these, like, drastic changes in how you feel, that's when you maybe you can try some different things or talk to your doctor, because If you're getting these really drastic things that could be that maybe your hormones are out of balance and, you know, trying something to get those back in a better balance could be helpful. So, those are some things to think about. So you may, yeah, you may feel like you're a little bit more sore in the high hormone phase. One thing I've noticed, and I think this is pretty common, is that I feel like I'm shorter of breath almost. Like, it's like I have a harder time getting the oxygen through my body, and so that can be something you recognize. What I would normally say though is that if you're feeling those kinds of things, Just be mindful that, hey. I'm in the high hormone phase, and on your workout days, give yourself a little bit of a buffer on paces so that We're not forcing it because if we're not recovering as well, that effort, if you're pushing to try to hit a specific pace, you may not necessarily be getting the most out of it because our body is having to work harder and then we have to recover more.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:19:39]: So give yourself some just buffer room when you're in that high hormone phase to be a little bit slower. We know it's gonna be a little bit more challenging. Another thing that we know is that their anxiety can be a little bit higher, so We may be having difficulty just for second guessing ourselves. We have anxiety about other things that all of that stress, that anxiety we get from The stress of all those things, it can affect how we perform. So we wanna make sure we're keeping that in a good balance. So if you feel that you're feeling Extra anxious, be be aware of it. Try to incorporate some more practices in your in your training that's more relaxing. So meditation or anything that's gonna allow you to kind of de stress a little bit, that's gonna be very valuable during that time frame.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:20:23]: And then the last thing that I think about is, it can have an impact on your gut. So, for 1, we are gonna be Your body's gonna be wanting a little bit more carbohydrates, so bring those on. Your body's craving that. We are burning through glycogen a little bit quicker during that phase, so we actually need more of it. Listen to your body when it's saying, hey. I need more. Don't you know, give in to the the chocolate cravings. Chocolate is high in magnesium, which can actually be really valuable for Helping us to control some of the PMS, symptoms, so stuff like that are is actually not a bad thing, but the other thing that happens is that our guts can be a little bit for, there might there's sometimes can be more inflammation.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:21:01]: So if you're having some stomach difficulties during that time frame, just be aware of it. You know, I noticed that sometimes I have to go to bathroom more, and so that can kinda make workouts and runs challenging. But just kind of be keep an eye on it. You there's different things you can take to kinda help your gut to preemptively prevent some of that stuff if you are in the higher hormone phase and you find yourself having more difficulties with stuff like that. So that's kind of what I would that I would say was the biggest things that we should be mindful of and be paying attention to, and just kind of modify and listen to your body as you can, and that's gonna help us work through those things, I think, the best.

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Cory Nagler [00:24:45]: Yeah. Listening to this from a male perspective, I'm hearing you talk about stomach difficulties, cramping, and fatigue. And I'm going this Just sounds like running. So just just as you're trying to navigate, one, let alone both at once, I know you touched John, a few strategies here and there. Is there anything else kind of more specific to to running that you find especially helpful for your updates or even for yourself?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:25:09]: You mean, like, how do I how to adjust training or something like that or just for just managing the PMS?

Cory Nagler [00:25:14]: I guess both. Yeah. Like, managing training if you're training through it. But, yeah, I guess, You know, if you're going through other symptoms as a result of trying to train through through your PMS, are there other ways that you can just manage it and and make it more, I guess tolerable or or or less impactful?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:25:32]: Yeah. I mean, I I think when we also will suffer from a little less motivation during that time frame, so it makes it harder for us to want to get out and push ourselves really hard and kinda deal with that type of pain. So, what I normally do is I'll for my athletes, especially, that maybe are feeling more they're feeling more impact From their high hormone phase is try to just schedule in a down week like like Kaylee talked about. Just kind of less intensity, maybe keeping some of the mileage in there is something we can still do, still run, but also just giving yourself space to take a day off or two because we need to have that ability to, you know, get through all of the training. And if that phase of your cycle is causing so much anxiety, so much stress, You're gonna get end up getting mentally burnt out by the time you get to your goal race. So if you need to rest during that time frame, by all means, I think that's gonna give us the best Pay off than trying to just keep forcing our ourselves to go through it and just ending up kind of just, like, not enjoying it, not having fun, because I think that's The the ideal is that we're enjoying the training, and so we're gonna have periods that aren't fine. And so we have to kind of either know how we know how to know how to manage them or know how to kinda, you know, you know, do what we need for our mind and our body. And so, that's what I normally say is I just kinda give yourself a little bit more space and and for balance during that time frame.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:26:54]: And like Kaylee said, keeping an eye on on what your specific symptoms are. And When I so I I will talk about this in a little bit, but I had lost my period for a very long time. And so when I first got it back, I, noticed that I had larger fluctuations in how I felt. So I was feeling like I would get, the breast tenderness, which was not fun. That I didn't I had never had that before. And so I had that, and then I noticed being much more affected by I would feel so sluggish, and my legs would feel like lead in those few days right before I started my period. And then once I started, even actually the day before, I'd started feeling better because the hormones kind of peak a little bit before you actually start, so they start to come down before you start. So if you had a race, like, right before you were supposed to start, you may actually end up doing okay.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:27:46]: So or you may feel better than you expect to. And so I think, you know, there's things like that to keep an eye on and keep an eye on how, how things are fluctuating. And so I I recognized that I as I was Getting back and I was getting a better balance on my hormones, I, started to feel less of those, like, fluctuations, And, you know, some of that was, maybe diet related. I had some I had to do a lot of gut cleanup. I had a lot of problems from undereating for a long time, So I worked with a doctor to help me kinda get a lot of that stuff back in balance, and that actually really helped me to get my hormones better in a in a more a better balance that I wasn't kind of real up and down all the time, and so that was something that really, really helped me. But, yeah. So I think, I mean, that I think that answers your question. The one other thing that I have recommended to some of my clients, and I got this from the Stacy Sims book where she talks about how you can manage some of the actual PMS symptoms, so The cramping, the bloating, the things that are, you know, a lot less fun about all of this, and she mentions that you can take 250 milligrams of magnesium, 45 milligrams of zinc, 80 milligrams of aspirin or baby aspirin, and 1 gram of omega 3 fatty acids, which is black seed and fish oil, each night for the 7 days before your period starts, and it can help to kinda level off some of those those those symptoms that are not as enjoyable.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:29:09]: So if you're really kind of feeling those to the extreme, that's something you can try just to see if it helps to manage those a little bit better so that you can kind of still keep going through Training because I know for some people those symptoms, the the cramping especially, and then some people get nauseous, they'll get migraines, and all that kind of stuff, It can be debilitating from from some people that I've worked with. It can be just knock you on your on your butt, like, just Not wanting to do anything. And so, that's something that could help to, you know, manage some of that if if you're really struggling with it.

Cory Nagler [00:29:41]: Yeah. For sure. And red s is super common in the athletic space. It's something I've deal dealt with myself in the past, just making sure you're getting that fueling. But Obviously, a lot of those fluctuations you're talking about are kind of where it gets a little more, female specific or specific to the hormones. So, just diving into that, Haley, I guess, for that red s piece, do you have any thoughts on kind of why this is so Important for women to be around or aware of, rather. And I know Haley kind of or Andy rather touched a little bit on kind of some of these vitamins and supplements you can take vacations to training, but, any thoughts on your end as well, aside from obviously the the adequate fueling piece on on how to kind of, address that?

Coach Hayley [00:30:24]: On addressing red s specifically, do you mean?

Cory Nagler [00:30:28]: Yeah. I guess, red s specifically or or or even just some of the side effects, The fatigue and the hormonal fluctuations that kind of come along with under fueling your training.

Coach Hayley [00:30:37]: Yeah. So I have personally experienced, and my was actually very hard for me to, I kind of realized that was what I was dealing with. Because, in my mind, you know, I had this idea that someone with red s was, kind of, usually a bit underweight. And usually, you're, kinda, not. Like, kind of knowingly, kind of under eating, and was not having a menstrual cycle. And you know, this was this was quite a years ago. So they were, kinda, ideas that I that I had in my mind. So I did not, kind of, align that idea with myself who was never underweight, did not restrict eating.

Coach Hayley [00:31:23]: I actually kind of had people say, Oh, you eat really well. You know, you look so healthy for a distance runner, and you're always eating. So I did not think that that would apply to me. But I had 4 or 5 years of just not being able to get anywhere with my running. Like, didn't even feel particularly bad. I just could not improve. Like, you know, despite a progressive Increase in training and training smartly, or fairly smartly. I could not improve.

Coach Hayley [00:31:54]: My times were actually worse than there'd ever been. And I wouldn't say I felt exhausted. But maybe I didn't feel quite myself. But, you know, this was a little while ago when I didn't have so much knowledge on red earth. And I thought I am not suffering from this because I do have a red dimensional cycle. So I think it's very important to be aware that, as a woman, just because you are getting a regular menstrual cycle doesn't mean that you are suffering from bad ass, because This ultimately ended with me getting a stress fracture, my only stress fracture in 20 years of running. And then Once I was able to then connect that with Red Once I did that, I was I was able to feel a lot better in my training, which kinda confirmed to me that it was actually red s that I was suffering from even though I didn't I didn't even have any sort of, kind of blood test, kind of, markers that would suggest red s because people People often look for things like low hormone levels on blood tests. Low skin, low progesterone, low testosterone and low thyroid hormones as Wow.

Coach Hayley [00:33:03]: A kind of signs in blood tests that, you are kind of suffering from red s, but I didn't have that. And I didn't have a lack of period, so it was very hard for me to kind of Appreciate that was what's happened to me. Once I was able to realise that that's happened to me, which I think is the sometimes the biggest part, just to, a kind of kind of realize and be kind of admit to yourself that that is happening. I was able to put in place some strategies to combat that, Quite easily for me because I didn't have underlying kind of issues with eating, and I wasn't knowingly doing it. It was easy for me to Implement some changes. And that was just kind of all kind of nutrition based really. I didn't didn't actually reduce my training at all because I was able to increase my calories. I did take some steps to reduce life stress because I think my life stress and the job I had at the time was strongly Kind of contributing to me not being able to get the calories I needed because I was very busy.

Coach Hayley [00:33:58]: But just kind of increasing your snacks. It's very hard to get all the calories you need in 3 meals a day. I will have 3 meals and 3 snacks, morning snack, afternoon snack, evening snack Each day and, like, without fail, you know, I wouldn't let myself not do that even on a rest day, because rest days are actually a good chance to kind of Not have that that kind of deficit because it's easier to to meet your calories and people think you should eat less on a red, a rest day. But actually, if you have red s, it's a good time To kind of almost eat more than you eat and then, you know, that will help the overall calorie balance. But also, there's kind of evidence that within day, Calorie deficits are kind of important in red deaths as well. So just not leaving big windows of time when you aren't eating, and kind of fueling all your runs as well. Like, any run over kind of 75 minutes I'll be taking on fuel during that run. At least I was very much focused on that when I when I was recovering for Red S.

Coach Hayley [00:34:52]: I occasionally kind of Let myself not do that so much now, but I I do still try with that. And, actually, since then, I've completely eliminated fasted running as well, which I think we're also gonna talk a bit about for females later. But, people who who are suffering or may think they may be suffering from red rash should completely avoid all facet training no matter what anything on the internet or any So called expert might tell them because the 2 things aren't aren't compatible at all. So, yeah, just a case for me and the people with red f. It's just a case of Finding ways to kind of get your your calories a bit higher. You may need to reduce training if you're having trouble doing that. Thankfully for me, I was able to kind of, correct. That deficit without reducing training, but that's not to say that that's the same for everyone.

Coach Hayley [00:35:39]: You know, it it kinda depends on whether you're able to get yourself feeling a bit better, quite quickly just through nutritional, ways.

Cory Nagler [00:35:49]: Yeah. And Andy, I know you're quite passionate about this piece, for women avoiding fasted runs. Is that something that's Specific to RED STAR, or is there a reason why even if you are adequately fueling white women in particular may want to make sure that they're avoiding those fasted runs?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:36:07]: Yeah, so I think a lot of the studies that have been done on fasted running has been predominantly on men, And there have been shown to be more benefits to men versus women just because of the way that women's hormones respond slightly differently to being in a fasted state. So I think that from what how I've seen it described is that, like, men typically are gonna be pumping out more adrenaline, and the fast and safe, whereas women are gonna be pumping out more cortisol. And cortisol is actually more of a fat storage, you know, hormone, and it also is what our stress response hormone. So, that fasted training is gonna affect us differently and is not quite as effective. Our bodies go into more of a, like, conservative say, like, we wanna conserve more when we feel like we're in a stress state so that we have the ability to maintain through those periods and have fuel on board to help fuel that. And so our bodies are more likely to actually shift to that point, and so when we start off fasted, you know, we know that's Happening. And then the other thing that we that I think about from a a fueling deficit standpoint is that, you know, if you wake up and you run-in the morning specifically fasted, You're, you're you're coming from an already fasted state overnight, so you've already not eaten for hopefully around 8 hours. And, and, you know, if you get 8 hours of sleep, and then you're waking up, and then you're putting a deficit on your body by going to exercise.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:37:28]: And so when you When you exercise, your fueling needs are if you have, like, your baseline level, you're down really low, and so then you're, throughout the rest of the day, trying to get it back to baseline pretty much all day. And so you may find yourself being more ravenous. You may find those low energy levels throughout the day. And so those are things that can affect almost anybody, but it's just gonna affect women probably more just because of that difference in the the hormones. So So, yeah, I'm a I'm a I've never really been much of a fasted runner even when I was having issues with Red S, and mine was slightly different than Hey, Liz. But very similar in the fact that it didn't affect you know, I didn't have all of the typical warning signs. I, started I lost my period in my sophomore year in college, so in 2009, and I didn't officially get it all the way back until teen. So that was a 10 year span of not having a period and, surprisingly, never had a stress fracture through that time frame.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:38:29]: So I kinda was living in this space of, like, I'm different than everybody else. Like, I can operate in a different way. For some reason, my body just isn't producing a period, which is not That's it was not true. It was just kind of the way that I had I think I actually had doctors reinforce that, so that was concerning that had a doctor that said that just happens to female athletes. I had another doctor who told me, to worry about getting my period back if I wanted to have kids and that it's unfortunate, to have, you know, your career or something that you're doing in your life, have that impact on you, but you might just have to wait and figure it out later. So I think that's that's, like, the misinformation that's out there about it and that it's not there's more things that happen to you when you don't have a period than just Not being able to have kids. You know, it messes with your your hormones. Like like Haley said, I ended up with kind of I think I I had more I was more susceptible to overtraining.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:39:25]: I had a lot of gut issues, so I was having a lot of difficulty With, you know, on runs, I'd always have to go to the bathroom on runs. Your gut permeability is is impacted, so you're more likely to get Infection, you're more likely to, you know, things, you know, in your food can can cause issues to you, so You might find that you have lower food intolerances, and so things like that that aren't not like, you aren't actually allergic, but your your body's not responding well to it because your gut is just So, you know, torn up. So things like that can happen. You can get stress fractures, but you don't always. My performance actually never really suffered until I actually was like, I need to get this fixed. I need to figure it out. And once I tried to figure it out, I, kind of was not mentally in a space to to know to, you You know, really deal with the what what that meant, and so I kinda took me down a a period of, like, a few years of just, like, the worst. You know, I was in the process of trying to get it back, and it was probably the most debilitating time.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:40:27]: I ran the worst I had, And it kinda gives you those thoughts of, like, well, maybe I should just maybe I should just not worried about this. And I was doing just fine before, but there's long term consequences. There's, things that could happen much later in life. And if you wanna be running for your lifetime, then you gotta be you gotta be more concerned about, you know, the the longevity of your body than, that specific moment in time, and so, that was why I tried to fix it. I mean, I coulda just kept going, but that was not the way to do things. And so it there was a means to an end. And so, so, yeah, that's kind of more of what my story ended up being, but I I'm super encouraged to see. I wanna see I'm glad that there's more conversations out there about this.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:41:08]: I think it's super important to recognize that, you know, we we train when we train healthy and we train smart, our Our ability to continue to perform and get faster, it extends beyond, you know, your twenties, your thirties. You can keep going for years years to come.

Cory Nagler [00:41:23]: Yeah. I'm sorry you had to go through that, both the red SPs and the misinformation from doctors. I think Hopefully, we've come a long way in terms of knowledge in some of these areas. But I'm also glad you kind of brought this greater context because, of course, We're talking about a lot of these issues in the context of running, but obviously they have a lot of life impact. So I, you know, we focused a lot on getting in volume and a few things that, that you can do to get in as well. But in terms of, like, Any nutrients that are particularly important for women, I guess, either for running or just in general, When you're when you're going through the Red S or or different, pre the menstrual cycle. I'll leave this open to either one of you. Andi, Haley, are there any particular vitamins that you wanna focus on?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:42:12]: Well, I I'll start with, I do know that, like, you're when you do have red s or you're under fueling, you're more susceptible to deficiencies, so, higher likelihood of being deficient in some of these common vitamins, but, you know, iron is is one that's typically, Like, athletes, runners in general, and even women who don't have red s are gonna be more susceptible to iron deficiency because we lose blood every month, so That's one to consider. But then if you do have red s, vitamin d, calcium, and actually, magnesium, vitamin k are important because those are what actually help us to keep our bones Healthy. Vitamin d and vitamin k actually work really well together to help for for bone health. Calcium is won't be absorbed into the bones unless we have amounts of vitamin d, so, and and vitamin k just kinda helps with some of that absorption. So, but those are things that you wanna be mindful of to keep your bones healthy if you're, You know, either dealing with Red S, trying to recover from it, and even after coming off of Red S, you you're probably gonna have a period of time where you have to work to rebuild That bone density and get all that stuff back. So

Cory Nagler [00:43:17]: yep. Hayley, any anything else?

Coach Hayley [00:43:19]: Yeah. I guess I'd just like to, to underline the importance of iron. I personally have had issues with the iron, with iron levels in the past. One consequence of having a copper IUD, which I talked about earlier, that I used For contraception, which is kind of a non hormonal IUD, is it does make your periods that little bit heavier. So heavy periods was something that I I kinda suffered from when I was kinda training, a lot and kinda throughout all my running. And that led to me to me having low iron levels several times. And when I did, I often had, kind of, Regular non sports doctors say to me, oh, your iron is fine. But what levels are fine for normal people aren't necessarily fine For athletes, so I think, for kinda normal population, ferritin, which is the level of iron stores, in the body, They said it's okay if you're kind of above, like, kind of 13, I think, in this country.

Coach Hayley [00:44:23]: I'm not entirely sure on the units, but just in that same unit. Athletes should probably be more like, 40 to 50 plus, which is obviously a lot more than is sufficient for a normal person Who isn't competing at, kind of competing and training? And I had doctors tell me my my iron was fine. And it took me a kind of a little while to learn that actually, my iron, which is always kind of 17 or so within that range, was actually way below What it should be for a female athlete. So make sure you you have a doctor interpret any kind of blood work or a company That kind of understands athletes and goes for, like, athlete specific, normal values, for for kind of vitamin d and iron and, like, Things like b 12 and folate, they're important for energy for athletes. Particularly important if, for example, like, I'm a vegetarian athlete. So It's important for me to to be extra careful for, like, b vitamins because they they can be kind of quite low in a vegetarian diet. So, Important to get those tested, and they are something that I I look at. And again, athlete specific numbers are are more More appropriate for people doing a lot of running.

Coach Hayley [00:45:42]: So if you go for, like if you get tested for, like, a company, It's good to make sure that that company or or the doctor that you see understands athletes and what's normal, for you rather than just a person who isn't doing all this kind of high level sport and things.

Cory Nagler [00:45:58]: Yeah. And just on the iron piece, because I know that's something I've struggled with, myself. I think it's important to Have the right interpretation of the data, but also know what information you need. Just because typically, when you're getting regular blood work, it'll include your hemoglobin levels, Which is kind of the the red blood cell count, but it doesn't actually have that ferritin, which is often what we look for in runners. So I think good point to kinda have a baseline of those values.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:46:25]: Yeah. A 100%.

Cory Nagler [00:46:27]: Haley, you you mentioned as well about kind of older athletes needing some more of of this kind of vitamin b 12 and and Iron. And and that's actually the next topic I wanted to get into is kind of any training specific to, older female athletes, or as you're Approaching menopause. Obviously, we're not talking about seniors here. This is a lot of female runners are running pretty, pretty respectable, if not Super incredible times at this point. So aside from kind of those vitamins you mentioned, are there any specific considerations as as you get around that That, that age range?

Coach Hayley [00:47:03]: Yeah. Definitely. So, yeah, I think you're talking, like, about kind of athletes who You are kind of just before or experiencing, like, menopause, which so menopause is when, women stops having periods and, The hormones the the female hormones kinda decrease, and that obviously has implications. But kinda the 2 to 10 years before that is known as perimenopause, Which before these female hormones decrease, they actually kind of fluctuate quite wildly. I've heard people say, like, similar to kind of puberty in terms of their, like, Being quite a lot of swings and quite a lot of, like, symptoms. So that's definitely something that a lot of women find is quite, like, damaging for their training. I've coached some female athletes kinda going through this. And they do have all sorts of symptoms like problems with temperature regulation, aching joints, and sore muscles is really Really a common one, fatigue and brain fog, and all these things just make it quite hard to train.

Coach Hayley [00:48:01]: So I think Just around this time, I would say, for female athletes, just, like, be prepared to kind of adapt your training based around how you feel because it can kind of vary a lot. And Just similar to PMS, really. Just be kinda kind just kind with yourself and and take note of how your body's feeling, and give yourself that extra rest day if you need it. Give yourself that down week if you need it, because this this perimenopause phase can go on for quite some time, before menopause actually begins. And and it does suggest that it's it's kinda time to start thinking about some of these things that are important to older athletes. 1st off, like, muscle protein synthesis. They're like the rate at which you build muscle and the rate at which you break it down. That really kind of decreases, as you get older.

Coach Hayley [00:48:47]: So it's it's more important to I mean, it's always important to pay attention to protein, but even more important to pay attention Protein, especially kind of around training. So after training within kind of a a 30 to 60 minute window, make sure you are getting in a good amount of protein. Strength training starts to become really important in perimenopause, and especially once you hit, menopause. Because these hormones are decreased, Quite substantially, it it's kind of almost, like, similar to the red s kind of state where your bones are actually Not getting those female hormones, they're actually gonna be a lot more at risk of, kind of stress fractures and actually will be losing bone. Women lose quite a lot of bone mass in, kind of, the 1st few years following menopause. So, in the same way as the athlete Suffering from various calcium and vitamin d is really important. As is kind of, maybe, like, switching up your training a little bit, but, like, not Doing lots of of kind of easy running, things like strength training and, kind of more high intensity things like strides, Drills, intervals, they're actually really important. Although you might think, oh, I should, you know, I should be careful with those because I'm a bit older.

Coach Hayley [00:50:03]: I don't wanna get injured. It's really important to keep them in there because because of this muscle and bone loss that occurs in older female athletes. So Definitely not the time to be to be stopping those. And actually, strength training becomes just so important because of that muscle loss and because of the bone loss. So, We really urge, older female athletes to make sure you have strength training in your program. And this can be kind of Quite heavy weights. Although if you are wanting to do quite a heavier weight, which can be really beneficial, it's probably, gonna be important to work with, like, a strength coach because, obviously, technique becomes more important than doing it right so you don't get injured. But if you if you can get, you Get the right kind of guidance there.

Coach Hayley [00:50:45]: It's just so beneficial to kinda lift a bit heavier, really help with kind of that muscle loss, to kinda slow it down and Keep some of that strength and also help kind of stave off that bone loss. So, kind of nutritional and training tweaks I kind of recommend to older athletes as well as the kind of, coping with perimenopause Trading adaptions. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:51:11]: And do those recommendations apply across the board kind of to Premenopause, during, and post? Or are there any kind of variations depending on where you at where you're at, in those phases?

Coach Hayley [00:51:22]: Yeah. I mean, Bone loss is kinda greatest after menopause. But just, you know, because, like, the perimenopause is gonna lead up to that menopause phase, you know, The sooner you you kinda start putting that in place, the better. So I would say that, like, perimenopause is when you should start, you know, starting to well, Hopefully, you're already including a bit of strength training but I'd be really more dedicated to that strength training and, you know, sort of some forms of of interval training And, you know, drills and strides, maybe even hill sprints. There's more sort of higher intensity strength building things. Perimenopause is a good time for that. Once you reach menopause, it's almost it's never too late, but it's almost you know, it would have been better to To have started a bit earlier kind of thing. So, of course, once once, female athletes reach Metabolic, they can actually feel Better because the the wild hormonal fluctuations at peritoneal menopause have kinda calmed down a bit.

Coach Hayley [00:52:20]: But, that is where Kind of more more bone loss can occur, so it's good to have any strategies in place for that already.

Cory Nagler [00:52:31]: In in, Annie, are there any other considerations, I guess, whether it be in that realm of fueling and strength or anything else that's a specific consideration kind of As you age as a female athlete?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:52:42]: Yeah. I think, like, with with the bone loss, it might also be helpful to start thinking about, okay, How can I supplement my training? I don't always have to do things the same way I did as a younger athlete. So you can do things that are low impact that still Help you to improve your cardiovascular training, so, you know, having those and strength training is such a great way to, help us to keep bone in there, so it helps us to lay down bone, helps us to keep the muscle mass and all of those things without it being, the pounding that you get with running. So, You know, pairing your strength training with, you know, maybe a reduction in running just a tiny bit, but also, incorporating some things that can help you from a cardiovascular standpoint to those that are gonna be low impact, can also be a way to just kinda mitigate, you know, potential injury risk, from that bone loss. So just kind of like you you just have to train slightly differently, but doesn't mean that you can't do it. And so it's just kind of being able to learn to to modify and adjust as you get older because you can still I mean, we're seeing runners, you know, running for longer and longer. I think there's a woman that just ran the 90, And she's a 90 year old that ran a marathon and broke the record for it. So she had I think she has the American record or something like that.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:53:56]: So we're seeing that Kinda stuff happening more and more. And so, you know, we have that capability, but it's about just recognizing what you need to do for your long term health. So, like, you know, if you need you, run a little bit less but cross train a little bit more, great. You know, do that. Take your runs as easy as you need to. Your recovery is gonna be a little bit impaired In that in those phases, so if you do a harder effort, you your easy run pace may be a lot slower, and that's also totally fine. It's about the recovery, not about the speed on those days anyway. So, you know, it's just kind of learning to modify for, where you are and what phase of life you're in is, is, I think, where we're where you're gonna be benefit most.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:54:36]: And then and the fueling, like, we talked about, you know, keeping continuing to do the things you did when you were younger, continuing to get that Post workout fueling in to help us to maintain, muscle mass and things like that so that, you know, though, when we run, we have muscle breakdown. The The fueling that we put in after we run helps us to rebuild that muscle mass. So if we're already having increased muscle loss, the best thing we can do is just, You get that protein, get that, those carbohydrates, get those things in as soon as possible after exercise, hopefully within the 1st hour, just to kind of, You know, keep those those processes that help us to maintain that as best as possible continuing. So

Cory Nagler [00:55:14]: Yeah. And then, Firstly, that's an incredible, I hope I'm still running strong, well into my nineties. But, just in terms of also Specific considerations. I I know a lot of what we talked about today is kind of specific to those hormonal fluctuations. So I I guess kind of as you get past that Menopause age, do a lot of those still apply or do some of the other recommendations we've we've discussed kinda change a bit?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:55:40]: I I mean, I think, I think a lot of the rules still apply. You still wanna fuel around training in a very similar fashion. We still wanna Take care of our overall health from that standpoint. I believe that there I don't know the specifics on this. I know that Stacey Sims has done a lot of Research on menopausal athletes and has written, one book that's dedicated towards menopause and perimenopause athletes, so she might have A lot of information that you could find from her, but I would say, you know, generally getting you might end up wanting to take more protein in as you get older, So your diet may shift to more a little bit more protein because that's what helps us the most with some of that keeping things on. But I think in the general, you're still Still wanna continue to maintain the the things that are healthy for your body. And I think when I say also healthy, ensuring that you still eat all those foods that you enjoy, you know, part of a healthy diet, part of aging, all this stuff. We still need to ensure that we're eating.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:56:37]: You don't have to eat super clean all the time. That was a mistake I made. It was just feeling like I needed to like, I couldn't have The desserts, I couldn't have the things that I wanted, but, I should have nutritionist tell me, you don't like, especially after training, you don't need to be, eating clean all the time. You know? The the post workouts, time to have the muffin, the time to have the bagel, the time to have all these things that you I had perceived as bad. So as we get older too, we still wanna incorporate all those things. Just because our bodies are changing doesn't mean we should, cut out things as we get older. So, You know, keep enjoying the foods that you eat and keep keep, keep some balance there as well. That's what I would say.

Cory Nagler [00:57:17]: Yeah. A 100%. The advice I got when I was going through Red Hat was, The quality of what you're eating is kind of irrelevant if you don't get that quantity right first. So feel yourself well, whatever it takes to get there. And Also on a on a side tangent, if there's anyone who should not feel guilty, indulging from time to time and making sure they're feeling enough, it's, it's somebody who's running world records into their nineties.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:57:40]: Exactly.

Cory Nagler [00:57:41]: I I know you did, mention some books from Stacy Sims both just now and also earlier in the podcast. So just to kind of wrap up, I want to touch on some, some resources if athletes want to kind of look into other, sources of information for their, for their training. So, I guess, Andy, I'll start with you. And then, Haley, are there any kind of, your your hit list or top recommendations for where to go for information on the topic?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:58:07]: Yeah. I I mentioned Salie Stacy Sims already. She's probably the 1st person that I saw actually talking more about this, research on women's specific physiology and performance. So, I've read through her book, Roar. It's got a lot of good information. It has some information even on running through pregnancy, I believe. It has some information on menopause as well, but it also has a lot of Really good information on fueling and, you know, she talks like about what supplements you probably need and don't need, things like that. She talks about the gut the gut issues and how to kind of work through those.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:58:40]: She talks about red s as well, so I think that, And the ROAR is a really good resource, a couple other people. There's a woman, I think, Molly Grabbreadth. I don't I can't breathe. I don't know I don't know how that's you say her name, but, She's even doing some courses now on working with female athletes and how to coach female athletes, so she's probably a really fantastic research For a resource for coaches or even just athletes wanting to learn more. And then the last person that I, really enjoyed following and she was actually on the podcast, I think I don't know how long ago now, but Kylie Van Horn of Fly Nutrition, she's got some she's been putting out a lot of fantastic, I think, Resources, just if you follow her on Instagram, she's got a lot of good content. I think she's pretty frank with the with the things that she says, and I think that sometimes that's what you need to hear To realize that, hey. Maybe I do need to make some changes, and so I, I've appreciated following her because she's just got so much good information, and she's just putting it out there in In a way that it might be some people may it may be a little scary to read for them, but I think it it hopefully touches touches them a little bit and helps them to kinda get back into a healthier So

Cory Nagler [00:59:46]: Awesome. Great resources. Haley, any others that, that come to mind for you that are your favorite?

Coach Hayley [00:59:53]: Yeah. I just, kind of second Andy's suggestion of Kylie Van Horn. She actually had a consultation with her in the past. And she, kind of, really helped me, with fueling my marathon because I was having some trouble taking on enough without kinda getting stomach issues. She really helped me there. And I think her resources are, like, So fantastic. And she's really helpful, kind of, with consultations and with the resources she puts out. So Definitely want to second that one.

Coach Hayley [01:00:22]: And then maybe, like, a UK specific one. I kinda know, like, a lot of US based ones as well, but, like, just kind of, someone from, the UK where I'm from. Jess Piazzaki is a is a very, very good, runner from the UK. He ran around, like, 222 in the marathon, I think. And has been very, Very public with issues with Veda she's had in the past that actually led to kinda having osteoporosis for a bit. And amazing that she's managed to come back from I've not even been able to run because of osteoporosis, because she never became her menstrual cycle until she was around 28. But she's been able to come back and run these amazing world class times. And she is one of the hosts of the female athlete podcast, which has some great kind of tips and, Advise for female athletes about all sorts of things, including just things like like getting the rug bra and, like, You know, it has female athletes from from a variety of sports as well, which I think is is quite interesting too.

Coach Hayley [01:01:24]: So, yeah, listen to that one as well.

Cory Nagler [01:01:28]: Fantastic. Yeah. If you have any more bandwidth, in your list of podcasts after listening to this, definitely give a lesson? I think I've heard of, Piazetzky as well. Yeah. I see some nods. Awesome. So I hope this was, both helpful. And then also some great resources if you're listening to this and you want to learn a little bit more about any of the topics we've discussed today.

Cory Nagler [01:01:52]: Andy and Haley, again, thank you so much. I think this was an awesome discussion and probably something that's not talked about, enough both in general and in the running community. So thank you so much for joining me today.

Coach Hayley [01:02:05]: Yeah. I

Andie Cozzarelli [01:02:05]: love I love talking about this. I think it's super important. So thanks for for doing this.

Coach Hayley [01:02:09]: Yeah. I love talking about it too, and I'm really passionate about it. So, like, it was really great to be able to be on, this one. Yeah. Thanks, Corey.

Cory Nagler [01:02:17]: Awesome. I I really loved having you both. And I know, Haley, when we first thought of this idea, you would mention about potentially not wanting to alienate 50% of our audience, but I think whether you're listening to this as a female runner or, just as a curious male runner, I think this is just great information in general and super interesting. So, Thanks for listening and, hope that you enjoy listening to this if, if you're still with us.

Finn Melanson [01:02:55]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm your host, Finn Melanson. As always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. Please consider connecting with me on Instagram at Wasatch Finn and the rest of our team at Runners Connect. Also consider supporting our show for free with a rating on the Spotify and Apple Podcast players. And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with our guests, and premier access to contests and giveaways, then subscribe to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netbackslash podcast. Until next time, happy trading.