From 4:30 to sub-3 Hour Marathon: Former RC Athlete Jonathan Tolksdorf Shares his Top Lessons for Marathon Success

Guest [00:00:00]: When I started running, it was it was really just for the fun of it. It still is. But for many years, I didn't really develop in terms of of progressing better times because I didn't train properly. It was just regular running. It wasn't training in the way that I have now learned from runners connect. But at some point, I thought, kind of out of curiosity, it would be cool to see what's proper training brings. Kind of the idea that, if you do it the right way, then you will progress without doing anything really special or or heroic or something that just superhumans can do.

Cory Nagler [00:00:39]: Today's guest on the show is a true RC success story. Jonathan Tolksdorf ran a 4:30 in his 1st marathon and joined us as an athlete all the way from Finland in 2012 with a 3 16 PR to his name. He went on to run his 1st sub 3 marathon and Boston qualifier 1 year later in 2013, and now has a 252 personal best that he credits to starting more serious training with runners connect. Part of what I loved about this interview was how humble Jonathan is about his success. He's run 169 marathons. You heard that right, 169, and over 10 of them in under 3 hours. But he was almost nonchalant in describing some pretty tough interval sessions and how he focuses on things every runner can implement, like building flexibility into your training and taking your recovery days easy. We went on to talk about how his training has changed to achieve this incredible improvement, and some of the key lessons that helped him to get better.

Cory Nagler [00:01:35]: With that, let's get into my interview with Jonathan Tolksdorf. Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And I'm not an elite runner. But together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Alright. I am joined by Jonathan all the way from Finland in 1 of our very first RC athletes.

Cory Nagler [00:02:22]: Jonathan, welcome, and thanks for joining me.

Guest [00:02:25]: Thanks for having me. It's It's a pleasure.

Cory Nagler [00:02:27]: Absolutely. I think it's such a cool story. So you you wrote in. You talked about how you came with a a PR, I think, of around 316 when you first joined RC, and you've run, what is it, 7 times under 3 hours now. Is that right?

Guest [00:02:42]: I think in total, it's, 11 or 12 times now. And, yeah, the 3 16 was my PR before, but, just under 3:30. So the 3 16 PR was 1 of those runs where you start really hopeful and, don't crash and burn like it usually happens.

Cory Nagler [00:03:01]: Yeah. Wow. Super impressive. And, we'll get into this later, but you've run, I think, something close to, like, 200 marathons now. So, super impressive both in volume, let alone the times themselves.

Guest [00:03:13]: Well, most of the marathon I run are are really just for fun. I mean, the whole hobby for me is just for fun, but, let's say 80% at least are kind of, very long run. So instead of running a long run on my own about, let's say, 20 miles, I do a marathon, where you have to do the destruction of other people. I've I've literally sometimes signed up for marathons just because I dreaded the idea of running long run on my own.

Cory Nagler [00:03:43]: III totally hear you. I think especially on the long runs, it's fun to have a group. I understand you both live and train in Finland. Do you maybe wanna give us a little bit of background of yourself, both in terms of your running, but also maybe personal life work or anything else you wanna share?

Guest [00:03:56]: Yeah. So I'm I'm 1 years old. I'm originally half German, half Swiss. So German is my my, native language. As a child, when I was 12, my parents moved to Finland for for work, and I've lived here ever since. And running for me started at about 18. I didn't really have any sports background other than just, playing soccer with friends. But, playing the piano, that was kind of the thing that I did on a more serious level.

Guest [00:04:28]: So sports was just a really just a recreational thing before that. And, running started basically the way it probably often starts to talk with a friend and decides, well, we might try to run a marathon. That's how my training started. And, yeah, I've been doing it ever since now.

Cory Nagler [00:04:48]: That's awesome. I understand that your entry into running was kind of the opposite approach instead of being, pushed into it for a long time. It was almost more as a spur of the moment decision. Is that right?

Guest [00:05:00]: Yeah. Yeah. The the person I I started running with is some 20 years older than I. A friend of the family, he generally helped me help me with math. So, that was, after 1 of our math sessions, we started talking about running and running marathons, and he had a bit of background in running just also for fun. And, yeah, it was a kind of a for the moment, we did sign up for the the hair salon. That's kind of the big marathon, in Finland, which was 2 and a half months away. And, yeah, like I said, I didn't have any running background, and it was, the most horrible introduction to running.

Guest [00:05:41]: You could imagine we both had no idea about how to build up, how to start slowly, different types of runs. So it was basically temporal runs every time we went to we end out running.

Cory Nagler [00:05:54]: If it makes you feel better. I had a running background before my first marathon, but it was all shorter stuff. And I think it gave me kind of a false confidence. So I don't know that that was any better.

Guest [00:06:03]: Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So what's your, what's your background in in running?

Cory Nagler [00:06:08]: I feel like I went more the kind of, traditional route if you will with kind of, like, in in school doing, like, cross country or track team when I was younger. And then I kinda refound a a passion for it at an older age for road running more during COVID times, which I think kind of aligns with your own story. You were saying you got really into it, come 2020. Is that right?

Guest [00:06:32]: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So after, perhaps we get get back to runners connect at some point. But after after a few years of runners connect, I trained on my own or it was just more of regular running with the occasional training cycle where I would really train for a specific marathon, but it was all pretty pretty low p, compared to that time with runners connect. And then, yeah, the COVID time freed up so much time that I had anyway been preparing for a spring spring marathon, which got canceled then because of COVID. So I just kept on training at the time for it. Yeah.

Guest [00:07:12]: And that was giving it a go again.

Cory Nagler [00:07:16]: Alright. So so walk me through it. You run this first marathon in Helsinki in in 2000, I think it was. It it doesn't go well, but you clearly, either had a lot of fun or decided to go back into it. Flash forward, how is it that you got involved with RC and started really, I guess, chipping away at your marathon time?

Guest [00:07:36]: So for me, when I started running, it was it was really just for the fun of it. It still is. But for many years, I didn't really develop in terms of of progressing better times because I didn't train properly. It was just regular running. It wasn't training, in the way that I have now learned from runners connect eventually, or let's say after a few years, I got to somewhere around 3:30 and that basically stayed my level for a long time. And there wasn't any ambition or plans to go faster. But at some point I thought, kind of out of curiosity, it would be it would be cool to see what's proper training brings. Kind of the idea that, if you do it the right way, then you will progress without doing anything really specific or anything really special or or heroic or something that just, superhumans can do.

Guest [00:08:32]: So it was as much curiosity and the idea of changing up things as, or more that than actually thinking I want to have better times.

Cory Nagler [00:08:43]: So, so is it fair to say the times just kinda came along with the idea of wanting to take your training more seriously?

Guest [00:08:49]: Yeah. In a way you could say that. I even, when I when I got in touch with Jeff from Jeff from, Runners Connect, I even said my goal isn't even to have a PR. So just to learn about training properly and having that experience and also having a more solid marathon run as in, I kind of know what I'm doing instead of just, being wishful that today turns out to be a good day.

Cory Nagler [00:09:16]: Yeah. And and I know it wasn't the main goal at the time to run a PR, but I I know from our previous conversations that you've run a lot of PR since then. So what is your current marathon PR? And, take me through that race.

Guest [00:09:28]: Yeah. I have to check and remember the seconds the seconds myself, but now it's, 25229. That was the year after after COVID when I because of the COVID year, I've been training and basically continuing to train. No. Actually, there was 1 lazy year in between. So, yeah, I started that year without any goals again. Like, I, I was really happy to run a sub 3 marathon on my own as in, not without this the the direct support of Runners Connect, which had been before before that all was the case. So kind of finding out if I could do it with the training I've got and with the knowledge I've got, but without someone actually telling to me, on this day, you have to do this, on the next day, after that until that.

Guest [00:10:26]: So, yeah, 1 year, I trained properly again. I had 4 sub 3 marathons, which the first 1 came really by surprise. I didn't expect it at all. And then it just went on from there, having more more of, based on that training I had done before. So also my my my current PR, it was a real big surprise. I knew I could do sub 3, but it was just a a run where really everything came together. I was in good condition. The weather was perfect.

Guest [00:10:58]: I had a good day.

Cory Nagler [00:11:00]: And was this the Helsinki marathon or what what was the race?

Guest [00:11:04]: No. That was a different when health think we're on the temp to PR anyway or even a sub 3 marathon probably because it's somewhat hilly, from what I know now compared to other marathons. All the thinking marathon for many years now as a pacer. So that forces me to run at a slower pace, and I'm quite glad about it because I know I'm allowed to run run slower on that 1. So it was a different 1, a city called Forza, small marathon compared to Helsinki.

Cory Nagler [00:11:36]: Right. Forza. Am I saying that right?

Guest [00:11:38]: Yeah. Yeah. F0RSSARSSA.

Cory Nagler [00:11:43]: Very cool. Okay. So clearly you've, in some respect, kinda cracked the code, in the marathon, so to speak. If, if at 1 point you're really struggling with that sub 3 and now you've done it numerous occasions. I know you had listed that there's a few things you really figured out in your training that have helped you to get there. I wanna maybe dive into them 1 by 1. The first 1 you talked about was related to flexibility of workouts. Can you maybe share a little bit of what you mean by that and how it's helped?

Guest [00:12:10]: Mhmm. Yeah. So, maybe I have to start with, how it went with with runners connect when I when I trained with help of runners connect and code coach Casey. As everyone who is, is part of the runners connect family and gets their training training plans from there knows, you have specific runs for specific dates, and you always know what you have to do. And, we're probably all a bit different as runners, but I as a person and perhaps with the whole Finnish background, I'm very adherent to that. So if the training plan says you have to do this, then that really is the goal no matter what, even if it doesn't make sense. So it also try runs when the weather conditions, for instance, weren't just weren't really allowing it. Kind of heading into the run, knowing it's just isn't possible today, but I'm trying it anyway because the schedule says so or the training plan says so.

Guest [00:13:05]: And, after runners connect, when I continued on my own, I obviously didn't have that anymore. Someone telling me I have to do this on a specific date, and I had to decide for myself, but also was allowed to decide for myself what to do when. And I always kind of went with the same really the same structure. I learned from runners connects, 1 or 2 works out workouts per week. The long run, easy runs in between. But no one's telling me you have to do this specific workout on this day. So especially in winter time, or let's say mainly in winter time when the conditions can be really whatever, you might not know when you start your run how is it going to look out there on the streets. So I often, winter time, kind of decide during my warm up what I'm going to do workout or if I'm going or maybe drop it altogether.

Guest [00:14:01]: So that's that's what I meant with the flexibility. I might have something in mind. But if I notice it doesn't make any sense today, I I adjust it. For instance, also, if if there's a strong wind, I just know from experience that you can kind of save the workout if you if you have longer longer sessions but run slower. But what wouldn't work at all for me is to really push hard shorter intervals that just, I wouldn't be able to do it. I would try to then be dead and not be able to finish the workout at all. So that that's also an example. Instead of doing short short sessions with a really hard pace, doing something a bit longer with a bit slower pace, you might be able to save the workout like that.

Cory Nagler [00:14:51]: Yeah. I I think that's, that's a common occurrence for runners to really wanna stick stick to the training plan or go by the letter of the book. I'm interested. You mentioned it's it's because you're Finnish. Is this a stereotype of people in Finland that they like to stick to a plan?

Guest [00:15:07]: Yeah. I would say, say, that's very Finnish. Yeah. It's it's, it's good and bad at the same time. So kind of the the idea of when you the authorities tell you something. And in the case of runners connect, coach coach Casey was my authority even though he would've agreed with me, if I just asked him, can I change this? He would have said right away, yeah, of course. But I didn't even I didn't even think of of adding anything like that, but that's very Finnish. If the authority says some something you really, really do it.

Cory Nagler [00:15:42]: Yeah. Certainly makes sense in the case the authorities with with training totally agree. There's definitely instances when it makes a lot of sense to move it around. So for some of those examples you shared, like, if there's a really tough wind or you talked about winters. I know the cold can be tough, but the snow sometimes is even more a barrier to running at least here in Canada. When you confront those conditions where it's just not possible to do the exact workout as prescribed, what's your approach?

Guest [00:16:07]: Well, 1 option is always to say, I'm not going to do it today, even though I rarely decide that right away. Usually, I I try to do something and then notice, it just doesn't make any sense. And and now with with, with experience and also the liberty from, I get from deciding on my own what I do, I, I usually recognize in time it doesn't make any sense. Turn it into an easy run so that I kind of save some energy for the attempt. I know that wouldn't even be necessary, and I've not necessarily done it always. Kind of the idea that, if you miss a workout, you have to do it the next day or something horrible will happen. But, yeah, that's that's 1 approach. Trying to do it.

Guest [00:16:54]: And when I recognize it doesn't work, then then just, stopping in time. So I, I don't tire myself unnecessarily and get a new chance maybe the next day or maybe also in a different spot. What's your experience on this, and how do you approach this? Because especially in wintertime, you also have experience with all the different winter conditions. And you also mentioned mentioned snow, which is, I agree, much worse than the cold. You can, you can dress against the cold, but you can't really make the muddy snow disappear.

Cory Nagler [00:17:27]: 100%. Yeah. The the muddy snow sucks or and and ice especially if you have churn. So I think, personally, I'm I'm pretty well aware of all the the loops or areas of the city that tend to be cleared faster, but sometimes there's just not much you can do. So I'm I'm fortunate enough that my condo has a treadmill if I if I really need to or otherwise, I'll just put it off till the next day. And usually within a day or 2, stuff gets cleared, maybe not everywhere, but at least in in some of those areas that I know they go to first.

Guest [00:17:57]: Mhmm. Mhmm.

Cory Nagler [00:17:59]: Yeah. I I do think beyond weather though, there's there's a lot of other areas where flexibility comes into play off the top of my mind. I'm I'm thinking work or life responsibilities or some days you just don't feel good. Is that stuff that comes up for you as well, and do you find you've become more flexible in other areas?

Guest [00:18:20]: I have to think about that. Yeah. Work, of course, is 1. That was also some something where I could really, now especially in hindsight, see the, the, very submiss submissive approach to the training plan. So if the training schedule says you have to do this on a specific day, and I was, abroad, which before COVID happened quite frequently, traveling to the German speaking countries. So, I might I might try, workout in the morning, which is a horrible idea for me because I'm not a morning morning person in terms of running. So, yeah, that's something I definitely wouldn't do now again. I would just skip it or or postpone it to the next day.

Guest [00:19:03]: Other than that, I would say I'm pretty lucky in in terms of my work that I almost always manage to do the things or manage to do my running afterwards, especially with with, or during COVID and after COVID. Now that traveling has also reduced a lot, I do have that 1 to 2 hours in in the evening. But, yeah, let's say also in when when recovering from a marathon, even if it's, just for fun marathon, I wouldn't do a workout 1 or 2 days after I I skip 1 workout that week then.

Cory Nagler [00:19:38]: I I can tell you've caught the running bug whenever you refer to it as a, just for fun marathon.

Guest [00:19:45]: Yeah. Definitely. Otherwise, I was quit after the the first 1.

Cory Nagler [00:19:50]: Probably true. Yeah. My my first 1 was abysmal as well. I I remember just going into it and being so confident the first half, and then by 36 k, I was limping.

Guest [00:20:00]: Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's that's really then was my, kind of I benefited from the fact that I really didn't have any running background and didn't have any any expectations or everyone was warning about the the wall which will come after a certain distance, which I now know is something that happens when you start too fast. The wall isn't there if you approach the run, like, reasonably. It's kind of it's kind of code for for those who start too fast to say, yeah, you can't help it. It's there always.

Cory Nagler [00:20:33]: For sure.

Guest [00:20:34]: It started

Cory Nagler [00:20:34]: too fast. The other thing I've had issues with is, either fueling improperly, or just not getting enough, I found is also definitely, something that'll lead to hitting the wall early.

Guest [00:20:46]: Mhmm. Mhmm. Do you

Cory Nagler [00:20:47]: find your, nutrition has improved a lot from when you started marathoning?

Guest [00:20:51]: I have to say that's a part that I still don't know much about. And also, I wouldn't say not care about, but I'm kind of, kind of too lazy. And also also my running times aren't that important to me that I would really, put a lot of energy into other things than running itself. So nutrition, the part that I've I have not much knowledge about, and also I think I've been just lucky in in the sense that I hadn't had to know much about that. Like with injuries, there are people who are prone to injuries, and there are people who somehow never get injured even though they might not do the right things and stretch properly. So I think nutrition is a bit something like that for me. I don't I know now that that the bigger problem would be to to eat too much. So usually when I when I, run, and I'll make sure I don't actually eat that much before.

Cory Nagler [00:21:54]: As you know, 2 of the most important pillars for everything we do at Runner's Connect center around individualization and science. That's why when it comes to nutrition plans and losing weight, we highly recommend the coaching team at MetPro. First, the science. MetPro analyzes your individual metabolism to get a baseline to see exactly how your body is responding against a very specific set of variables. This means no cookie cutter diets or formulas. With this personal data on hand, your MetPro coach creates your meal plan based on what works for your body. No guessing involved. Your MetPro coach then works with you to consistently make adjustments based on your metabolic data, as well as how your plan fits your lifestyle.

Cory Nagler [00:22:36]: If you've struggled to hit your nutrition or weight loss goals on your own, the expert coaches at MedPro are just what you need. And right now, you can get a free 30 minute consultation in metabolic assessment just by heading to metpro.co/rtt. That's metpro.c0/rtt. Unless you live right beside trails or run the same route every day, then most of your favorite runs are probably a little drive away. That means it's that time of the year when you have to hop in your car after your run covered in sweat and dirt. Even if you use towels, your seats still end up wet and dirty. And unless you're cleaning them every day, the smell and damage the sweat does to your car can linger. And let's not even talk about if you have cloth seats.

Cory Nagler [00:23:25]: But you can put an end to sweaty, damaged car seats this summer with DriSeats car seat covers. DriSeats waterproof seat covers are designed specifically for runners. Unlike towels, they're 100% waterproof and easily fit over your entire seat, so you don't have to have any missed spots. Plus, they're super easy to slide over your seat, so it's ready in seconds. And they're machine washable, so they're easy to clean and be ready for your next run. Dryseats covers will fit any bucket seat, from trucks and SUVs to compact cars and on leather, vinyl, and fabric seats. If you're tired of sweaty, smelly, and stained seats after your runs, these are a must have. To make this even more of a no brainer, you can head to dryseats.com and use code rc20 to get 20% off your first order.

Cory Nagler [00:24:11]: That's driseats.com and use code RC 20 to get 20% off your first order. If you're a long time listener, then you know how transformative AG1 can be for your overall health. Like many of you listening, I want to eat healthy and make sure every meal has some type of fruit or vegetable, but that doesn't always happen. That's why AG1 is such a game changer. It's as simple as adding a scoop to your morning glass of water to give you the added ease of mind that you're getting all the micronutrients you need, even on days when eating lots of fruits and veggies is difficult. Not only that, but it can help to replace multivitamins or other nutritional supplements with something that's better absorbed. If you often feel tired in the mornings, you might even notice needing less caffeine thanks to the natural energy from the adaptogens. AG1 is the supplement we trust to provide the support your body needs daily, and that's why they've been a partner for so long.

Cory Nagler [00:25:09]: If you wanna take ownership of your health, 1 of the best ways is with AG 1. Try AG1 and get a free 1 year supply of vitamin d3k2 and 5 free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase. Go to drinkagone.com/rtt. That's drinkagone.com/rtt. Check it out. Interesting. I think a lot of runners have the reverse problem and not eating enough, but it it definitely ties into the flexibility piece that you clearly have an understanding of what seems to work for you at this point.

Guest [00:25:44]: Yeah. That's true. That's also the thing. It's it's, somewhat reasoned, I would say, this this, understanding of, in my case, I just it's better if I don't eat that much there. Quite a lot of my my marathons come from really small scale events, which are basically they're let's say there there's a guy with a refreshment table somewhere in the woods or on a small loop. It's nothing like we imagine when we think of of a marathon events. You might have a number or might not even have a number. It's really low scale, just, just for fun and people who are into collecting marathons.

Guest [00:26:22]: There's a small group of people, but, a very active group of people in Finland who kind of made it their mission in life to collect marathons. So 1 per per week at least. I don't belong to them. It's it's not that fun and it's quite time consuming. But, yeah, that's that's where I ran quite a lot of my marathons these past 3, 4 years, and that's where I noticed. I usually also would would eat quite a lot in the morning, then then drive, for 1 hour to the race and run and just notice it's, it bothers me for the first hour that I've eaten so much. And that's when I tried, okay, let's just eat less. Let's see how that works.

Guest [00:27:05]: And I noticed it works really well. I don't need that much food in me, to to run the, let's say, 3 and a half hours. I do wanna just for fun run.

Cory Nagler [00:27:16]: Yeah. I'm I'm surprised to hear that it's a lot of these smaller scale events where you find you're running better. For somebody at your pace who's running, you know, PR of 252, but most of the time it sounds like under 3 hours, do you find there's enough people around you?

Guest [00:27:30]: Well, the good on those small scale events is, it's it's not A11 loop course. So it really is basically, most of them are you run you run 8 times the same loop, which isn't even a loop, but you run back and forth. So it's, it's a times back and forth on a 2 and a half kilometer stretch. So you see each other all the time. You're not running at all alone and you, you greet each other, and you you might talk when when someone passes you or you pass someone. So it's you're definitely not not running alone on those those events. And that's also what's nice about the the whole community.

Cory Nagler [00:28:09]: This sounds like torture.

Guest [00:28:11]: It is. If, if you're not having having a good day, I've had those as well where it really feels long. But, in general, it's, it would have sounded torture to me, before I started doing them, but it's you never have that far to the next refreshment point. You can always kind of think in your head, okay, I have to get there. I can turn back. And it's it's easy to mentally, mentally cut it into small sections.

Cory Nagler [00:28:40]: Yeah. Yeah. That that makes sense. And everyone's different. I know there's a lot of runners who love the big races where you're surrounded with people. Some love the shorter ones and and everyone in between. So it really does, I think, comes back to that point you made about really knowing what works well for you. Mhmm.

Cory Nagler [00:28:57]: 1 1 thing I think is is interesting about you gravitating towards the smaller races is that I find those kind of mimic training a lot better. And the second lesson that you had mentioned was about I think it was something along the lines of not making your workouts into heroics. Do you find that you keep your workouts a lot more similar to racing these days?

Guest [00:29:18]: What do you mean by that similar to racing?

Cory Nagler [00:29:21]: I I guess I I think some people will treat their races very differently in terms of, you know, using different equipment or they have a very different routine for races or they're maybe a little bit more rigid with their approach to racing than workouts. Do you find you fall into that camp, or do you treat your workouts very much the same as you do races?

Guest [00:29:42]: I would say pretty much the same or or maybe the other way. I work out well, workouts anyway is what we do most of the time, the the marathon. So whatever run it is where you really go for, let's say, a PR or a QuickTime, those are more the exceptions. So, yeah, I don't do anything special on on those other than maybe the the fueling parts eating a bit more different differently. But, yeah, not, not that, not that different. No.

Cory Nagler [00:30:11]: And, and when you say not that different, do you think you have become less strict in the way you treat your workouts or have you become more intentional with the way you approach your races? Or is it a bit of both?

Guest [00:30:25]: I think the way it comes down to the fact that I, I'm even though I take them seriously, I'm quite relaxed about about either of them. So even if if, when I when I do a workout especially well, it was different again during during runners connect because I had that training plan and I had those goals. And I was really, wanting to to hit those marks even though in hindsight, I know that wasn't the idea at all. I just didn't question it or I didn't I didn't also, ask my coach about it. But especially now afterwards where I train on my own and make my own decisions on what I'm going to do, I've I've become more flexible on the workouts also in the sense that, I kind of have, my goal is, let's say, probably less fast than it used to be. I kind of hope I might go faster than that, but I don't have to start initially hitting the really fast pace and then finding out if it's too fast today. It's more it progresses maybe a bit more towards the end.

Cory Nagler [00:31:34]: And and is that how you treat your workouts? Do you find you go into it and feel out the paces, or do you still, now that you're training on your own, have a pace in mind that you stick to?

Guest [00:31:43]: A definite pace in in mind that I, at least try to stick to. It's it's maybe a bit more a bit more cautious, because I don't want to I don't want to hurt myself too badly even though though that usually ends ends up happening during the workout, which also in a way is the goal. But I don't have let's say the the the pace I have in mind when I start a workout is is something that should be pretty realistic. And I hope I might be a bit faster, and I usually am a bit faster than, than that initial goal. But III choose I know I can do even if I'm not really 100% or really giving it totally all. Does that make any sense, or do you understand what

Cory Nagler [00:32:28]: Yeah. I think it makes a lot of sense, and I I found there's something confidence building about going in and either being conservative or going in with without an exact pace in mind.

Guest [00:32:38]: Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. So I I really definitely have a case in in mind. That is my goal. I need that because if I would if I would start running according to what it feels like, you always your body always tells tells you to slow down and you're suffering, and you shouldn't be doing this to yourself. So you really need that pace. And, also, I need my GPS watch telling me because of if I would rely on what I feel, it's it's always going to end up, slowing down because it's it's too bad what I'm doing to myself.

Guest [00:33:10]: So, yeah, I I need that pace and that goal in advance, but I'm, I I choose a pace which which doesn't require me to do something really out out of the ordinary, but something which I know I should be able to do on a normal day. And then hopefully, I I end up being a bit quicker than that.

Cory Nagler [00:33:30]: And do do you think you're more consistent with either your paces or just getting in the workouts now that you're a little bit more conservative with the pacing?

Guest [00:33:38]: What do you mean by more consistent?

Cory Nagler [00:33:40]: So I I think, for example, if if you go out too hot at the start of a workout, it can be easy to either run really slow at the end or have to drop out early or extend the rest just if you over exert yourself. Is that something that you suffered from a little bit before your mindset changed around training, or have you kept things pretty steady?

Guest [00:34:00]: I would say it's kept it's it's, been kept pretty steady, but maybe in a bit of a different way. So during runners connect when the paces were given given to me, then I would really try to try to do them because I was, quote, unquote, forced to do it. And now it's more like I I choose something which is a bit slower initially, end up running a bit faster anyway because I've been pretty conservative in, in choosing that that goal pace initially. So there's not not that big a difference. What does happen, I wouldn't say frequently, but from time to time is that I, I just let's say I want to do 8 times 1 k at a certain pace. And I notice I'm maybe running a bit faster than I initially thought. So I'm just not gonna change. It's 2 or 6 times 1 k.

Guest [00:34:55]: So that's something which I still haven't kind of learned, reading the pace and doing a sticking to the original plan. It just changes then on the way because I'm already too far into the workout to to slow down and to, to kind of save the original idea.

Cory Nagler [00:35:15]: Yeah. It it's hard to adapt on the fly. I I think it can backfire both ways though. I've definitely had it where I try to adjust the workout on the fly and then you maybe go too easy or too hard when you try to do those mental calculations.

Guest [00:35:28]: Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's also something that's a bit new to me, the idea that I sometimes before before the workout, kind of think about what's the goal for today. Not in terms of the pace, but is my goal to to run at a hard pace, or is my goal to, kind of fight that mental battle of having to go on for a longer time? So let's say I've done a few of those quick intervals for a really kind of push, and then I think now it would be good to do an interval where it's more against more about the the mental battle of not giving up too quickly and just keeping keep keep going. And that's something which I've done kind of in advance decided. My main goal for today isn't the quick pace, but just to do those a times 1 k kind of no matter what.

Guest [00:36:21]: So, that has helped me also reduce the pace or make sure that I that I get there instead of starting off too quickly.

Cory Nagler [00:36:30]: Yeah. I think that's a good mantra or or approach for consistency rather. I I mentioned on 1 of our other podcasts that I really like a saying they have at the a local training group, the Tin Man Elite, keep the ball rolling. And I I found that ultimately, the training blocks where I'm the most successful are not the ones where I have the the best workouts or the best peaks. It's the ones where I check the box and I'm the most consistent with workouts, and it it sounds like you've found something similar. Is that fair to say?

Guest [00:36:58]: Yeah. Yeah. I would say that's the thing I I keep telling myself during workouts, before a workout, sometimes during workouts is is training is work and not heroics. So that's always I think everyone knows it's who who runs workouts. You always have the idea. I have to do something kind of heroic out of the ordinary today, something really special. Hit that pace. Be really happy about.

Guest [00:37:19]: I did it, and I'm seeing progress. And that's something which has changed. Also, again, it's been easier now because I decide for myself what I'm doing and when to focus on the big picture. It matter if today's workout doesn't go as planned. If I perhaps even have to skip it altogether, I just have to keep working at it week in, week out, and eventually I will notice progress. So, yeah, it's that that's made it also easier to ignore the individual run. Of course, I try to and do what I planned, but if it doesn't work out, then so be it. Then I just have to keep keep working.

Cory Nagler [00:37:57]: Clearly, you're seeing the results from that. I wanna move on to what was the third, lesson you learned, you said, in your training, which was specific to the taper. And in particular, you said you now take a much more aggressive taper than you used to. I'd I'd love to know what is your taper used to look like, or or did you even do a taper? And and what do you find worse for you well now?

Guest [00:38:21]: So, before runners connect, I didn't even know that such a thing as a taper existed. I had no idea that you were supposed to take it easier for a couple of weeks. So when that started with runners connect, I remember probably also something that everyone recognizes who, who does these same kinds of of training training plans. You really look forward to those 2 weeks at the end where you can take it easy or even supposed to take it easy and kind of regain regain strength. So, yeah, that was something that I that I always always look forward to. And what I noticed sometimes during the marathons then was that I felt kind of kind of sluggish, especially during the the beginning and maybe even throughout the marathon. So it doesn't necessarily mean that I wasn't able to run a fast marathon or even hit hit a PR. But I, at some time, at some point, just started wondering a bit why is this that I during the normal training or when you do these hard workouts once or twice a week without any recovery period between other than the easy runs.

Guest [00:39:26]: You're able to do these long runs with a fast finish or even the whole long run. So, yeah, that's that gave me the idea to change my my taper to something more more aggressive, kind of just keeping keep going, but, of course, reducing it a bit. And now I've for the last, I don't know, maybe 3, 4, 4, 5 fast marathons I've done. I've always used the same basically, the same paper workouts, which I know no work for me. So the the first in this 2 week period, that's almost a normal workout. Just a little bit reduced. Kind of not pushing it all the way, but really like, doing a hard workout. And then it slows down a bit, or or the the intervals just get much shorter.

Guest [00:40:16]: And so the last 1 of those 4, that would be, did I write down 6 times 2 minutes at almost my maximum pace? So during those times 2 minutes, I'm really kind of suffering a bit, but it doesn't take that long altogether. But that's, of course, something everyone has to try it for themselves. I definite diff taper I'm doing now to someone who is new to the whole concept. Try it the traditional way, which I also learned from runners connect. And if you if you notice after a few times, not after the first time, but after a few times that it always tends to be a bit bit sluggish during the start of that big race you've been training for, then you might think about changing something up. How do you approach your your taper? And have you tried different versions?

Cory Nagler [00:41:03]: I've definitely tried different versions and and found what works for me. And I found I've gone in both directions. I've had times where I didn't really taper enough and tried to do pretty much more normal training. I've also had times where I just cut down the mileage too much or I didn't do enough intensity and really found myself feeling kind of flat or dull on, on race day. I found what works is to really start lowering the mileage almost like 3 weeks out, but doing it very gradual, so there's almost no difference at the start. But then I also like to cut volume, but keep the intensity and keep a little bit of marathon work so that, as you said, like, you're not doing that same amount of time, but you're not you're not cutting down the paces that might, like, still feel like they're used to it when the race comes around.

Guest [00:41:49]: Mhmm. Yeah. Interesting.

Cory Nagler [00:41:51]: I'm interested though that you talked about always looking forward to the taper because personally I found it's not something I love. I I always enjoy those first few days of the taper when you get a little rest. But I find once I start to feel fresh, I I get personally a bit of an an antsy feeling and just wanna get going and have that feeling like I'm holding myself back. Do you find that too when you're in the taper?

Guest [00:42:11]: Well, now it's different, because of this more aggressive taper. So, the original tapers, it's the workouts were really, like, almost like you're in kindergarten again. They were supposed to be like that, but you're supposed to do some kind of taper, but it doesn't feel like like running at all or workout, like, at all. You're more focused on on slowing yourself down than the actual run itself. So now it's different that I have that I have a taper which I know works well for me and also demands something of me. I'm now looking forward to the taper again or still because I know things get easier then. But I also recognize what you're saying about wanting to go. And that's also something that's if you're new to running, it might kind of surprise you if you've done it for a while.

Guest [00:43:01]: Everyone recognizes that you start feeling all kinds of things which aren't really there. They're in your head. So you start feeling some itching in your foot or or now I'm really feeling slow, and you kind of have to just ignore that feeling. And, no, I've done this before. Yeah. It's just messing with your head.

Cory Nagler [00:43:20]: Definitely messes with your head. And I think so many of these things just take experience, to know. Is it is it normal my knee feels a little off or to have a little nickel in my hip or, hey, I feel sore after this workout, but not that 1.

Guest [00:43:35]: Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:43:35]: III think 111 of the things that impresses me with your story is it sounds like in in so many of these respects, you have, like, a really good understanding of what's gonna work well for you and regardless of what other people have done, what what has led to good race results for yourself. Are there any kind of silly mistakes or big changes you've made that you think have made a really, really big difference in your training or racing performance?

Guest [00:44:02]: Well, I would say 1 thing that's that's also changed really significantly is my my easy run pace, which I really couldn't tell us about how slow it is. I remember it's it's it's funny when, when I started at Runner's Connect, I I had to fill out this, questionnaire with different questions. So I'm a running background. And 1 question was, what's your race? And, yeah, 5 minutes per kilometer. That's my easy pace. So what would that be? 5 minutes, 8 That 8 minutes per mile. Yeah. Yeah.

Guest [00:44:34]: So a nice round figure, I thought. Yeah. That's about my easy pace. And that's also something when I had my GPS watch, I would always kind of make sure that I'm just a bit under that. And if the PR, which is totally different from then, I would never say my easy pace is 5 minutes per per kilometer. It's much slower than that. So that's a big difference. Not looking at the pace on my easy runs at all.

Guest [00:44:58]: I used to do it by just leaving my my my watch. Yeah. See my pace. But nowadays, luckily, I've had enough experience that I really am I'm able to ignore what it says. So I wear my watch. I can see afterwards. But if I've done a proper workout before, the day before, it really is a slow pace. I'm not trying to do anything about it.

Guest [00:45:20]: And kind of, again, focusing on the big picture if you if you can see that your workouts are going the way they are supposed to go and you're making progress over time, then so what if your easy pace at certain days is real

Cory Nagler [00:45:39]: Yeah. For for yourself these days now with a 252 PR, do you have a sense what your easy pace is, or does it really fluctuate day by day?

Guest [00:45:47]: Maybe, I would say, 5:15 to maybe 5:30. It might be slower on it it depends if I've done a workout the day before or not. But I definitely wouldn't say 5 minutes, like I said, back then, on my questionnaire. So it's not that much slower, but it is it is slower. And it can go up to up to, 5, 5, 45, 5, 45, maybe. So really significantly slower if I'm if I'm not feeling feeling fresh from the workout before.

Cory Nagler [00:46:25]: I think it's good context though. Just to put it relative to your marathon pace though, again, going to miles, so you're saying if 5:30, 5:45, so we're talking, like, 9 minute miles or or thereabouts, and you're running your marathons, I guess, pretty close to 6:40, 6:40 5 pace. It must be around there. So there's a pretty good discrepancy.

Guest [00:46:47]: Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. It is. It is much slower. Yeah. I remember all that something that I once read in a, in a runners connect article about an elite runner also describing her easy pace and how it is really, really slow. There are lots of things that I kind of have learned on my own, which I later realized they've been, out there all the time.

Guest [00:47:10]: I've read it in articles written by by Jeff, for instance. But it's different to or you kind of need that own experience and understanding to really be able to believe it what you read on paper. Like, also, he once wrote something about compared to African runners, see ourselves. And it was something like, we we tend to think we're as good as our last run and African runners tend to think they're as good as their best run. I remember thinking, yeah. Okay. It sounds good. But I wasn't able to kind of believe it from from my own experience.

Guest [00:47:47]: And now that's something I would totally say if a workout a day isn't good and but the previous workouts have been showing progress, then I just move on.

Cory Nagler [00:47:57]: Yeah. Do do you find you've adopted that mindset more where you compare yourself to your best friends as opposed to the most recent?

Guest [00:48:03]: Probably somewhere in between. But, yeah, the the whole thing of yeah. The whole thing of of looking at the big picture and ignoring the, or not paying attention to the individual run, that is a big change, for a meeting. I think every good runner is doing automatically or has learned to to do it. Otherwise, he wouldn't be able to cope with, little failures in between. And for beginners, like, for me, for many, it wasn't clear at all. You would look at that 1 last run, and that always determine kind of future. If it goes bad, then, then everything is going downwards.

Guest [00:48:44]: And if it went well, then you're making progress.

Cory Nagler [00:48:47]: Yeah. It's, it's hard to not attach yourself to that latest workout, but it sounds like you're pretty level headed about the whole thing.

Guest [00:48:55]: Yeah. I've learned to be it wasn't like before, but I've I've learned learned to be, yeah, through through experience and time and kind of reflecting not in the sense of of big philosophical, reflecting, but just realizing, I have done these workouts that I've worked for a while now. I've, at the end, had a good result. So the next time, if I have bad runs in between, I just have to keep working. Like I said, the my my my model training is work, not heroics. That's something that I'm really happy from during or it's just to keep myself motivated to do the work regardless of does it go to plan today.

Cory Nagler [00:49:41]: Are are you training for anything specific right now, or do you have any ambitions to break that 252, Pierre?

Guest [00:49:46]: I have to run it. I thought I'm never going to beat it. I know I'm not going not even going to try because, for me, it's so fast that it would it would take a lot of training. I wouldn't say it's impossible, but it's for me, it's, it's, it's kind of beyond what I thought I would ever do. And it would take too, too much, too much time and also mental effort to kind of train with the mindset. I have to beat that if it comes, it comes, but, it's it's not a goal. And, running sub 3 marathons in general, it wasn't the goal when I started with runners connect at all. So when I ran that first sub 3, it was like, okay.

Guest [00:50:29]: Now now I've done it. I don't have to do it again. I'm kind of satisfied with what I got out of it. So So everything after that has been a been a bonus. And, no, I don't have any specific goals at the moment. I just keep on working. I recently started doing workouts again after a while of, taking it easier. And, well, for tomorrow, I have a very specific goal because I'm a pacer again at this event.

Guest [00:50:58]: I I mentioned this marathon. So I know exactly how fast I'm supposed to run, but that's, of course, a very different type of run because you're slower than, than your usual pace.

Cory Nagler [00:51:12]: What's what's the pacing job? What pace are they asking you for?

Guest [00:51:16]: 4 hours.

Cory Nagler [00:51:17]: 4 hours on the dot. Okay. So that's I guess in miles, that's something like a 9, 9 15 per mile. Is it around there?

Guest [00:51:27]: Probably. Yeah. I'm not quite sure. I have to check my, my race band for the kilometer basis, which I have.

Cory Nagler [00:51:37]: Yeah. Yeah. Don't, don't quote me on that for anyone listening. My brain definitely works more in in kilometers per hour or minutes a kilometer, I should say.

Guest [00:51:45]: Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:51:46]: Okay. Very, very impressive. I think in a lot of ways, this is definitely a success story that's relatable to a lot of new runners, the way you adopted adopted the sport on a whim and have really over time run a ton of marathons and a ton of fast marathons at that. If you could summarize some of the things that have, you think, most contributed to your success for runners, Or if there's anyone listening and ask you the question, what did you do to get so much faster? How would you answer?

Guest [00:52:16]: I should now say I signed up with Runners Connect. I love the plug. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that that was, of course, a big part. Without that, I would still be running those 3 30, marathons. It really does take that training and and some some level of determination and doing it also the right way. And that was very important for me when I started with Runners Connect.

Guest [00:52:41]: I, I didn't want to just download a training plan from the Internet, which I perhaps don't understand properly or also doesn't has a person behind it whom I can ask or whom I'm in some way accountable, to. So that definitely was a a big part. But let's say other than that, if we take runners connect out of the picture for a while, it's just that's, that's over a long long period of time, just keep working.

Cory Nagler [00:53:11]: Yeah. Clear clearly that's worked. You've run a lot of sub 3 marathons. I think you said 10, 11 at this point. You corrected me too when we started this conversation. I'm impressed. Jonathan, thank you for joining me. This was a lot of fun.

Guest [00:53:27]: Thanks for having me. It's an honor to be able to contribute this way and give a little back to the runners connect community, which helped me also a lot during the time I was, with runners connect.

Cory Nagler [00:53:38]: I'm I'm so happy to hear that. Glad you could join us, and, good luck with your pacing job tomorrow.

Guest [00:53:43]: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Cory Nagler [00:53:46]: Thanks again. And for everyone listening at home, happy running. Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at Corey underscore Nagler. Worth your strava by searching Corey Nagler. And please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast.

Cory Nagler [00:54:28]: Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, then consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netforward/ slash podcast. I'll see you on the next show, but until then, happy running, everyone.