Creating a more welcoming sport: How to promote diversity, equity, and inclusion in running

Guest [00:00:00]: Honey, you're gonna say the wrong thing. You you're gonna make a mistake. Like, it's just gonna it's just like with me when I first started with race direction. I thought I knew what I was doing because I I actually have a certification special event management. I didn't know shit.

Cory Nagler [00:00:13]: You just heard a clip from special guest on today's show, Dion Mason. Dion is a certified trainer and organizer of the Toronto Carnival Run, who joined us for a panel discussion on creating a more diverse and equitable running community that is welcoming for everyone. I'm so thankful to have had this conversation with all our amazing panelists. That also included RC's very own coach, Andy, and January Spotlight athlete, Katie Markisich. One correction to a comment I made during this episode where I refer to Andy as a Wazelle runner, while she's still absolutely crushing it with her running and coaching, she's no longer a part of the team at Wazelle. I'm gonna be honest that I was really nervous about straying away from our usual training topics, but I'm so glad we did. This is an incredible group of women who managed to make an oftentimes challenging topic approachable. I was initially going to anchor this episode around inclusivity.

Cory Nagler [00:01:05]: But as you'll hear Dion point out, equity in sport requires going beyond inviting diverse groups to participate by addressing systemic barriers in our sport. In addition to learning more about each of our guests and their community work, you'll also hear from them about what equity looks like in running, and how runners can create real change in their own communities. This is a judgment free conversation. And if you love this sport as much as I do and want to share it with everyone, I think you're gonna love what they have to say. Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Welcome RC, and we have a different type of episode today talking about all things diversity, equity, and inclusion in the running space.

Cory Nagler [00:02:19]: I have some exciting guests with me today. Yon Mason, Toronto carnival run race director and recipient of the Canfit Pro Fitness Professional of the Year Award in 2017. Andy Cozzarelli, one of our own runners connect coaches and semi professional runner with Wazelle. And Katie Markasich, youth running coach and community advocate. I could only do so much to introduce this amazing cast. So why don't I pass it off for you each to introduce yourselves, and tell us a little bit about why inclusivity in the running space is important to you. So, Dion, why don't you start us off?

Guest [00:02:52]: Sure. Thank you very much for having me, Corey. It's great to be here. As you mentioned, I am the race director of the Toronto Carnival Run. I started this event 2016, and the Toronto Carnival Run is a Caribbean inspired running event that brings together the love of joy of running along with a Caribbean carnival theme. Besides that, full time, I'm also a fitness and lifestyle coach, which is, thank you for mentioning as well that in 2017, I was honored with receiving, an award, which is considered to be, an honor in our in the fitness community to receive that award as well. And one thing I noticed as a fitness and lifestyle coach, I've been doing this for over 20 years, the biggest thing I noticed that I saw a lack of diversity when it came to, participation in all fitness levels, whether it be running, in the fitness clubs I would be teaching group fitness at, pretty much just, I didn't see a lot of people that look like me participating or even being involved in various different levels of the industry. So rather than waiting for an invitation to sit at the table, I built my own table and I brought my my forks and my knives and my spoons, and I built the Toronto carnival run from scratch because I really wanted to be able to create an event where all people are welcome, but particularly black people like myself who oftentimes, didn't really see a space for us.

Guest [00:04:13]: I therefore created this event, so that more can feel welcome and also give opportunities for those to be part of this industry.

Cory Nagler [00:04:21]: Yeah. What a what an incredible event. And for those who are unfamiliar with Dione, she actually resides close to me up in, in Canada and Toronto. So I'm familiar with the event, but yet to participate. So we might have to touch base after and make sure that I can, take part in the festivities at some point.

Guest [00:04:38]: Yes. For sure. Whether you run or you dance down the road, I say just come get to the end somehow, some way.

Cory Nagler [00:04:43]: Sounds like a great time. Andy, our listeners may be familiar with you, but do you wanna give a quick introduction for yourself?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:04:49]: Yeah. So I am, as Corey said, a coach at Runners Connect. And, you know, within the diversity, equity, inclusion realm, women are super underrepresented as coaches in the industry. And so, and as, Dionne even mentioned about, not seeing people like herself in races, it's similar to I feel like with coaching. Coaches have a a place where, you know, we're we're helping athletes get to where they're going. And so, having more women coaches, I think, would encourage more women more feeling more comfortable in the sport, having greater connections in the sport. So I think it's important that, even from a coaching side, we we have to see and from even from a leadership standpoint in racetracking and everything that we're doing, there has to be some of that recognition and, athletes being able to see what they wanna be. And so I think that just helps to make the sport better.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:05:45]: The other reasons why I think it's super important is just for safety. I think safety in running for marginalized groups can be one of the biggest challenges. And the the more that we see different marginalized groups participating, the the better it's gonna be for everybody and the more opportunities there are for everyone. So that's why I feel like it's super important to me. And, you know, even even coming from and I know that, like, I my participation in the sport, like, understanding of it has evolved because I came from a a background or you know, I'm I'm young enough that when I started running, I never never understood what it would be like to not be able to. And so, I think that's something that needs place. It's like most of us don't even know necessarily what, what it feels like to not have that same level of of, just comfortability in the space. And so so I think talking about it also just helps us to to recognize where other people might be coming from.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:06:43]: So

Cory Nagler [00:06:45]: For sure. And I think it takes conversations like this to to really know because you don't know other people's experience. And I'm really thrilled that excluding myself, we have a panel of all women, which I think, says volumes. It's fantastic. Yep. Awesome. And, last, Katie, I'll pass it off to you. For those who think the name sounds familiar, it's probably from our previous RC spotlight where Katie was actually one of our feature athletes.

Cory Nagler [00:07:09]: So, Katie, do you wanna tell us a little bit about yourself?

Guest 2 [00:07:12]: Sure. My name is Katie Markasich. I've been a runners, connect athlete for a while now, and I've been running since I was in grade school. Running is just something that has really helped me in my life. It's helped me deal with emotional issues. It's helped me just sort through challenges in my life. It's helped me become a happier person. It's helped me become more, I well, I'm starting to get more involved in the community, but it's helped me create, like, great friendships, you know, finding people who where, you know, you have big things in common.

Guest 2 [00:08:02]: And that's the reason why it's so important for me to, address inclusivity and diversity and equity in the sport because why should why should I, as a white runner have all of these amazing privileges and some other other runners don't have similar privileges just because of, you know, the color of their skin or their socioeconomic status or whatever other, you know, status that is is different than what I have. So, I just really want that for every I want everybody be to be able to utilize or utilize running or just to be able to discover the wonderful things in life from running that I have. So I'm just really passionate about trying my best and educating myself, on how to best be able to bring that to other people.

Cory Nagler [00:09:09]: And I think it's so cool that you're putting in the effort not just to contribute, but also to to learn more and grow and be able to to augment the way you make a difference. And, I I hope, Katie, that you're okay with me sharing this, but we did have an exchange before where you you mentioned describing yourself as as somebody who was still learning about the the DEI space. And, I was so impressed with that. And my response was that I think it makes it all the more important to have voices like that. Because I think in many ways, whether somebody is just taking up running or has been in the sport for years, we're kind of all students of the sport or of DEI. So we definitely need need more people kind of putting in that effort to really learn more about how they can contribute. I'll move on to our next question, which is, what do you think equity and inclusion in the sport looks like and what are the obstacles to getting there? And really what I mean is I think everyone has a very different view of of what it actually means to have equality and inclusivity in the sport. So if if we kind of were able to completely erase those barriers, what would the sport ideally look like for you? And and, Andy, maybe I'll start with you on this one.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:10:13]: Yeah. And I I think, like, nowadays, we see, from the women's side, we see, that there's almost more women running, races than than men, but I still think there's there's challenges that are represented that are that are different still from men. I mean, like I said, with the coaching side, you know, most women may not be having the same experience if there's a shortage of women coaches that they can work with. I would think which I think is a challenge, you know, leveling out that space a little bit more, having more opportunity for, women in the in the space. And then, I think also when we talk about, things like, you know, the safety, being able to participate in the sport in in a way that's feels comfortable and isn't gonna be something that is fear creating fear in them. And so one of the things that really, really bothers me is lack of track access because I think the track is such an easy way, and it's a safer place for people to congregate. It's a more comfortable place than being out in the world. I mean, like, greenways are great for running in our greeter trails and things like that, but they're isolated in some ways, and that can just be a barrier for entry for a lot of for women, for any marginalized groups that that don't feel comfortable or or where there's a lack of safety there.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:11:36]: And I I just think that, like, track access and and spaces that are a little bit more, like, where there's lots of people can feel a little bit better. And so I really wish that, you know, tracks were easier to to get on because I just think that that would be able to, you know, bring more people in. Even just running easy on the outside lanes of the track, anything like that, being able to do laps or whatever they wanna do, in a space that's more isolated, especially for runners that run-in the dark, things like that. I think it just opens up more opportunity to to make it possible for more runners to participate of, whether they be women or, you know, people of color or any of those things. Like, I I I never like and I think what Katie said is 100% true is that this is still something I feel like I'm learning a lot and and trying to understand, because, you know, I don't have the same lived experience. My my my family is is I'm part 50% Ecuadorian, but, I definitely look more like my mother's side of the family. And so, I had the realization recently that my sister is darker skinned and that though we grew up in the same household, we might have had a very different, just a different life. We I and that never had occurred to me until recently.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:12:51]: So it's definitely something that, you know, I don't have as much experience understanding that side of things, but I do think from, like, the women's side, yeah, we I think we need more we need to see more representation in different places where, leadership is so that we can we can really make some better strides and, you know, have more more women at the table making decisions when it comes to, races and whatever else. So yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:13:19]: Yep. Yeah. I think we've we've all had that experience of running late at night or, you know, in areas that maybe don't feel completely safe, but not not everyone has has the same privilege of of going out and feeling safe on the run. So I think that's that's so important. Great. Katie, maybe I'll pass it to you next for your thoughts. Do do you have any any view of what you think ideally this should look like if we were to to tackle any barriers to equity and inclusion?

Guest 2 [00:13:51]: Yeah. I think Andy hit on a couple of great points. First of all, the track access for sure, that is, you know, very important for everybody to have the same types of access. We don't tip I don't really have that, problem up here in Vermont because I think most of the tracks are open to the public. I think just more representation from, different races and socioeconomic statuses in the sport. I just think seeing seeing yourself represented in the media, in magazines. It it's getting better. But in Vermont, I can say that while we are 93% white up here, I don't see many runners that are not white.

Guest 2 [00:14:44]: And just, you know, seeing more runners out there, can you imagine being a child and, you know, not seeing anybody of your race out there running, you're not gonna be able to visualize yourself being out there nearly as much. And you may think, like I was actually reading Alison DeSear's book, Running While Black recently. And, you know, she had mentioned I think it was in her book that she had mentioned that people would look more towards sprinting or that coaches would kind of push kids more towards, African American children more towards sprinting because they were more represented in sprinting. I might be quoting that from some other source. But it's basically about, you know, representation. Can you see yourself doing this thing? So I think that's important. And I also think some the obstacles oh, safety was, the thing that Andy had mentioned. That's a that's a huge, obstacle for a lot of a lot of people.

Guest 2 [00:15:51]: But I think that the sport is actually more expensive than one might think. Just buying shoes, I am amazed. I can barely afford the sport, and I feel like I'm middle class. And how, I mean, how can we expect kids to be able to take up the sport if shoes are a $150? It's just so that's one of the things that, the team that I'm coaching that, we do is I'm just joining this team as a coach this year but, actually, tomorrow, we do or Wednesday. In 2 days, we do our second practice of the year where we bring the kids to ski rack and they get to choose their shoes, and they get them for free. So I think that's I don't know. I think it's important for people to be able to have that equal access to things that you need for for running, like shoes and whatever you else whatever else you might need because that is a huge barrier to entry in my opinion.

Cory Nagler [00:17:02]: Yeah. I I especially like that piece about, them being able to choose their own shoes because I think if it's if it's truly to be equal, it's it's not just hand me downs. It's giving these children the opportunity to really be on a level playing field and have the same equipment as everybody else. So I I appreciate you sharing that. Dion, do you wanna give us your thoughts?

Guest [00:17:21]: Sure. It's interesting. I kinda struggle with this with this this question because oftentimes, it's like, for example, when you're in school and you don't get picked for the team and then you ask the person who didn't get picked picked for the team. So what can you do to improve the teams? Like, I'm not on the team. So how am I gonna give my thoughts? I'm I'm on the bench. Can I get on the team? Right? So for me, when it comes to I'm more interested in equity than I am in inclusion. And let me preface this by saying, yes, it's important to include BIPOC people that oftentimes have been excluded. But where are you including us? And are we moving beyond just having conversations and saying, yes, I'm listening and I'm aware? And it's like these issues have been going on from pre the murder of George Floyd.

Guest [00:18:06]: You know, I'm happy that there was some kind of an awakening suddenly that people began to recognize more that we have some deep systemic issues within our our communities. But this is not new, and I think we need to move beyond the conversations and and being aware and getting to the actions. So for me, it I I look for equity. Where are Barkapak people in your organization? Sure, you can throw an ad with more diversity on the ad but are the people who are running the ads all white but then you have a couple of Biopac people on your advertising campaign? There's a disconnect there. Right? So I m in Toronto, the most diverse, city in the world. I believe you have the most amount of ethnicities and nationalities Yet oftentimes when I look at the board of directors or the management crews or the people who are making the decisions, people that are actually receiving resources and getting paid for their expertise, I don't see that diversity. Right? So I for me, I'm looking more for equity than I am for just inviting me to the to the party because if you invite me to the party and you sit me at the kids table, what good is that? Right? So that's to me what I I look forward to. And in my respect, I mean, I'm, in terms of I don't class myself as an athlete.

Guest [00:19:25]: I'm more of a recreational runner. You know, this morning, I had a great run and I do kind of stuff like that. And so in terms of just being able to get out and be active, many people can approach that. But when you have other barriers where you are not able to, access resources or get paid you know, for your for your, for your expertise and for, you know, your talents compared to your white counterparts. Well, how can you afford that $150 shoe if, you know, if you're you're not being paid accordingly and and properly as a coach or as whatever aspect that you are in in the running and fitness industry. So it's it's complicated and it's something that is ongoing, but really, I wanna see more action than just talking. And there have been people I've I have been seeing some great changes. I have been seeing some organizations that are moving beyond just talk and and and, you know, bringing on the DIA programs as well as bringing on individuals and including them.

Guest [00:20:22]: But I'd like to see more, like, specific goals. Like, in 3 years, we want to ensure that our our, that we meet certain quotas. Yes, this seems easy to say we have to have X amount of people of certain ethnicities in your organization, but it has to be intentional. Just like with any other business goal, you have to be intentional about your goals which includes making sure that you have people in your organization top to bottom and in between that represent the demographics of where you are.

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Cory Nagler [00:23:44]: order. Yep. And I I I think kind of that taking it from talk to action is, easier said than done, but something that needs to be done so much more. You will see businesses will quantify what, you know, what's your your revenue or your net income for the year, but it's it's so rare that you actually see those quantifiable and tangible goals when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I think that's as well a good transition to our next question, which is getting more or so into that the action and some of the work you each do. Now I will say when I sent out these questions earlier, I had worded the next question is some of the work you're doing to promote inclusivity in the sport. But, Dion, I I love your answer. So I'm gonna transition that a little bit more to what are you doing to promote equity in the sport? So why why don't I hand it back to you to to answer this one first?

Guest [00:24:32]: Well, you know, as a race director, and and I think one of the things because as a black woman, I do have much more of a connection to the black community and and more and I'm very intentional about ensuring that people within my community have a not just a voice but actually have a connection to being able to access resources. So, when I make decisions about contractors for example or people that I want to, highlight perhaps for advocates or what have you, I intentionally look for people within the black community, within the BIPOC community to give them, to give them a platform that they may not have necessarily had, with other with other opportunities or other race directors. Although that's changing, I'm seeing more race directors out there that are being more intentional but you know, with me, I I make sure that I'm more intentional to give more opportunities for businesses that may not have necessarily, been noticed. That's one thing I definitely do. I also, I'm happy that within the running community as race directors, we are very much a very tight knit community. So I've I've been mentored by and I've also sought sought mentorship from other race directors that have been very much willing to take suggestions from me to, you know, include perhaps other groups. You know, there's a couple of groups in Toronto. There are a couple black running groups I've that I've been able to connect with or pass on their information with, and they've been able to to collaborate with them as well.

Guest [00:25:58]: So, you know, it's different different things even though oftentimes, you might be the person looking in. But when there's that one person that's able to open a window and and be willing to at least listen for times they will listen and take take the call to action.

Cory Nagler [00:26:23]: Mhmm. And and we will come back later to some of those groups that are taking those call to action. But just curious to ask quickly because we can link it in the show notes for people to see, are there any specific groups that you're thinking of when you talk about the the groups that are doing a great job in in Toronto to promote that?

Guest [00:26:40]: Well, in terms of, like, running groups, I know that there was a a group in Scarborough Black GTA. I can't remember all the groups unfortunately because there was a couple a couple of groups, that, I'm I don't wanna get in trouble. I can't remember them all the top of my head. But there are a couple of groups. You can just Google search them that do promote and encourage, black runners to be more involved. And, you know, I've reached out to them to try to get them involved as well with the Toronto Conoco run and if they ever have any, if they ever want to partner with me, what have you, I'm always willing to do so. But, there are more groups coming up that before were never there that, thankfully due to individuals and and and companies within the running community that are more willing to, invite them and to to platform them, then they are getting a little bit more support. But I think it's something that still needs to continue on, again, beyond the conversations, but the action and and being able to share the resources as well.

Guest [00:27:39]: Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:27:39]: Yeah. A 100%. So in in order to help get them some of those resources or do the little part we can, if if any others come to mind, definitely feel free to email me after the show, and we'll link it as well as, I will include Running Well Black or or any other resources that come up because I think it's great for anybody listening to know where to find those. Katie, maybe I'll pass it over to you next to answer the DEI space?

Guest 2 [00:28:05]: Sure. So this year, I am, joining the junior milers coaching group. So the junior milers are a group of kids ages 10 to 18 in Burlington, Vermont, that get together and do weekly or biweekly, twice a week, running training with the ultimate goal of running in the Vermont City Marathon as either a relay or most kids do a relay, and some some of the older kids will do a half marathon on their own. So and one of the cool things about this group is the kids from this group are, brought to the Junior Milers group from community organizations. So, like the Boys and Girls Club. I can't think of of Burlington High School as another group. So, coaches and teachers and, other leaders from those community organizations will bring the kids to the Junior Milers running sessions. And most of the more so Burlington is, about 93% white, and, the majority of the kids at these groups are not white, which is you know, it is what it is.

Guest 2 [00:29:41]: But I think it's great that, you know, we're reaching a more diverse group. But we are welcoming to everybody. So if kids from, you know, Shelburne, a nearby town, that is, you know, more wealthy or just, you know, have more resources for running, want to join, then they're perfectly welcome to join. So that's one thing that I'm doing this year. I'm really nervous about it because I'm not great with kids. But I'm, you know, I'm trying to another thing, that I'm doing that's related to this is I'm trying to get comfortable being uncomfortable. And that's something that I like to do in running, but outside of running and outside of sport, it's something that I haven't been doing as much and especially in learning more about advancing DEI and just about being a better human. I just need to get more comfortable being uncomfortable and saying or doing things that may be wrong instead of doing nothing at all, which is what I have done in the past because I just don't wanna do the wrong thing.

Guest 2 [00:30:55]: But I'm just gonna start trying with, you know, a good good effort and, good intention. And, hopefully I mean, I feel like that's the only way to make progress is to take some sort of action. And another thing that I that's on my mind is, I do some race directing too. I shouldn't say some. I've done I put on one race, but I'm hoping to continue doing this after a short break while I figure some things out. But, I'm looking into doing race directing, so, like, offering races for a donation instead of a race fee. So, like, the race fee is just like suggested donation, if you can because there are area, where I am north of Burlington. There there's just a lot of different socioeconomic statuses and I feel maybe I'm more sensitive to this than I sensitive meaning, like, maybe I'm making more out of this than it actually is.

Guest 2 [00:32:02]: I don't think I am, but, there's just you know, people have less resources up here in terms of maybe they live ten miles away from the closest running group or half an hour away. I live half an hour away from most things. So they don't have as many opportunities. So, you know, having not having to pay as much for a race, I'm also I would love to look into more options like transportation to races, free transportation. So mind, but just really trying to make it a more, like, a space that every more people can can be a part of.

Guest [00:32:40]: Can I just jump in? I was waving. Sorry. You know, not being being concerned about not saying the right thing or what have you. Honey, you're gonna say the wrong thing. You're gonna make a mistake. Like, it's just gonna it's just like with me when I first started with the race direction. I thought I knew what I was doing because I actually have a certification, especially event management. I didn't know shit.

Guest [00:33:06]: I didn't know as much as I thought I knew. So people sat down with me and says, honey, okay, you're doing this wrong. You need to fix this. You did it. So it's with anything that you tackle. I mean, being able to figure out how do you include more black people, brown people, yellow people, whatever people in your community, you're gonna make mistakes. And someone's gonna sit down with you and say, you know what? I know you have the right heart. I know that's what your attention is.

Guest [00:33:27]: Let me give you some advice. And then you can say, okay. Thank you. Right? And that's just life. You know? That's just life. But again, doing nothing is simply perpetuating, the ideology of white supremacy that the ideology of continuing to to keep black, brown, and people down while white people have access to all the resources. So it's you to do something is to say, I'm challenging the system. I'm challenging this this, you know, the stomach problems that we've had for 100 of years.

Guest [00:33:56]: So, yes, you're going to make mistakes. We all do. But the main thing is that you're doing something and you're going in the right direction.

Guest 2 [00:34:03]: Right? Yeah, thank you. And say, yeah,

Guest [00:34:06]: like Doctor. Martin Luther King said, the arc of moral justice, you know, it's it's long and lots of bumps along the way. But you're the point is getting through the arc and doing whatever you can to to move, things in a more positive way.

Guest 2 [00:34:20]: Yeah. Thanks, Dion. I totally agree. And I think, I mean, I think if someone were to sit me down and say, hey. You have good intentions, but, and here's some advice, I I feel like that's the gentlest way. In my mind, that's the gentlest way possible. But I think what I'm thinking is just, like, be prepared to to not have it be gentle. And I am preparing myself for that, and that's that's okay.

Guest 2 [00:34:44]: Like, that I'm ready for that and that's it just took me a while to get there. I'm a little embarrassed about that, but I'm here now and I'm hopefully, I can do, you know, do what I'm hoping that I can do.

Guest [00:35:05]: Yeah. We I think we all have that moment. Like, even when I I was not a runner all my life, I started running more in my adult life, but I just said, well, I'm here now, so let me start with a 5 k. And then eventually got my way through different distances. But I'm sure people who are long time marathoners may have looked down at me like, who is she to just start now. But you know what? You you start where you start and then you move on from there. And and as long as you're you have the right intention and and you and you're willing to be humble and listen and and seek the advice, from those that, you know, have walked the path before, you know, that's that's, I think, all we can ask for. Right?

Cory Nagler [00:35:46]: For for what it's worth, Katie, I was partially inspired by your own story to create this episode. And when I first thought of it, the the idea of of running this episode, being a a white cisgender heterosexual, by by all accounts rather privileged male, quite frankly, scared the crap out of me. But, we're here discussing this because I I felt it was the right thing to do, and I'm I'm so thankful to have great voices like each of you to to help tell stories that are are much needed in the running space.

Guest 2 [00:36:15]: Thanks for doing that.

Guest [00:36:16]: You, Holly. We appreciate it. Yeah. Because a lot of things that you may see, like, the other day, you know, someone like you called me up and said, Dion, there's a grant. Do you know there's this grant application? Like, no. I had no idea. Right? And then they helped me through the process, like, stuff like that where you see an opportunity I would have never known about, and that helped me along the way. So just little things like that can go a long way from just giving somebody a nudge or an opportune.

Guest [00:36:43]: Let them know about something that they may not have been on their radar or have access to.

Cory Nagler [00:36:48]: Yep. Yeah. There's so many little things that can make a big difference. Andy, I I think, you're the last one I haven't yet touched on for, this question. Do you wanna give us, an answer for some of the things that you're doing in the DEI space?

Andie Cozzarelli [00:37:00]: Yeah. And this is a little bit there. So it's a there's a couple things here. So from, like, just in promoting women a little bit more just in the space in general on the coaching side, I before I started at Runner's Connect, actually, I'd started my own coaching business and, with the goal of making it be a woman's organization. So only hiring women to do the for the coaching, from a strength perspective as well. I have a woman a woman strength coach, and we're all it's all women coaches. The website built by a woman, like, everything trying to kind of make sure that we're highlighting women in the spaces where they're not commonly or they not aren't commonly are. And so and to really start to bring that full circle and have that be something that's prominent is, you know, having more women coaches in the spaces and women coaching men because I think that's something that I it's it's it bugs me that men it's it's totally normal for people to see men coaching women, but we don't necessarily see it the same way when it comes from, women coaching men.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:38:07]: And so I I really want that to be something that changes, that, it's it's like, even women coaching elite programs. Like, I think that's important. Women coaching men male even elite programs, should become more commonplace, and I think that's something that I've been passionate about as well. And then the other thing that we're doing within my coaching organization, and and this is something we were trying to figure out exactly how to how to make it work and have it be useful is to so the the the my Instagram handle, which consequently became my coaching business, is run for a cause. So I what we wanna do is create a cause that we run for every year where, the where we're we're geared towards, specifically a a charity that we're raising money for that's either, that represents basically marginalized groups. So, getting more women involved in the sport, getting more, BIPOC individuals included in the sport, and putting money towards organizations that are doing that work to make sure that they have the resources, and we can continue to lift them up and find ways to be involved in that way. So that's something that, probably try to sell some some t shirts or use some designs and stuff that where we can really start to do the work on that side. And that way, we're kind of putting ourselves in a position to try to just build up, as many of the the groups that kind of have been, working for and fighting for that equality.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:39:33]: And then on the the other thing that I've been, that I'm passionate about that I really want to improve is even from the elite side, I I don't think that our current current organizations that we have that represent the elite side of the sport do enough for the sport to be equitable. I don't think that they make it even feasible for most people to live on the sport from a professional side, and I think that's an injustice to the sport in general. Running, I see as being such a good sport for teaching us so much about ourselves, teaching us skill life skills that are so important. And it's it's a sport that doesn't that I wish more people could go into and and be able to actually access. And so even from the elite side, like, I want to be able to create more, opportunities where it can the the sport can be accessible and and give scholarships to different things and be able to give the athletes things that they deserve, like, you know, free shoes, free training, free free, all the things that they that they need to make it in the sport. And even if the organizations that support the distance running aren't doing the work, is there ways that we can go around that to provide these opportunities so that so that athletes can live on it and they can see it as a as something that they can look to. And I think it starts also at that kid's level of, you know, a lot of kids start out and they see their their idols and soccer, and maybe all those these other sports, but they're not seeing it in running because the opportunities aren't there. And so I think that's a huge problem from the younger generation.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:41:11]: I think the younger generation helped to really reinforce what happens in the sport. They're the ones that are that are really making the difference in in how this sport continues to evolve. And so, you know, having having more visibility, you know, media wise, you know, putting putting more faces on there, getting them higher, you know, higher up in the, you know, it it annoys me that there's, like, golf on every channel that you watch, but you can't find running races necessarily. So that kind of stuff is things that I I wanna find ways to, provide more opportunity to, you know, everyone in general in that aspect to just kind of create more something that gives more incentive for younger generations to stay involved and get involved in and learn about running and really get what we all are getting out of it. And so that's something that, I think a lot about. And then the other thing I was gonna say is and this isn't something I'm necessarily doing, but an organization that I have really valued for what they're doing is bra it's bras for girls, and they essentially are, giving free bras bras out. And I think it's to different schools and organizations, where I think it's specifically targeting a a wealth, like, a certain income ratio or something like that is where they try to go with this is to give these free sports bras because a lot of girls, especially at the middle school age, will stop competing in sports because they don't have access to sports bras, and so it just becomes uncomfortable for them at that age. And so, they're doing some work to try to stop that from happening at that age so that not even just running that they'll just be involved in all sports, so they can continue on and feel comfortable doing it.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:42:52]: So, I've I've done some events for them, and I think that I think it's I think it's helpful. We also talk to the girls about their changing bodies, which I think is, some of them may never even have those conversations depending upon what they're growing up in. And so, you know, it's a little awkward. You can see the little giggles on their faces and stuff like that, but I I find it to be really helpful. And it's it I think, I I really value having that having been part of some of the the giveaways and talking to the girls. So yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:43:24]: Yeah. That sounds like such a cool initiative, and it really resonates as well what you said in terms of the airtime and the equity in the sport. I think a lot of major sports, whether it be, you know, your your basketball, your football, it's often used of well, there's there's more fans. There's more viewerships on the male side. But running is one of the few sports when you're running the exact same race. So it's it's the same number of eyeballs that are looking at it. Yeah. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:43:48]: Totally. I'm I'm actually gonna combine a couple questions for the next bit because I think they kind of go together. We've kinda touched on some of the groups and organizations that are helping to make change in the community as well as your own work. So I wanna hear about maybe some personal stories you have of for yourself or athletes you know when they've been impacted by injustice or inequity, but then equally, if there's any groups or organizations that are helping to combat these types of injustices or or even other systemic issues that you wanna call out, then I definitely wanna hear about that as well. Katie, do you do you mind starting us off with this one?

Guest 2 [00:44:29]: Sure thing. I'm just plugging books today. So, I'm going to bring up Lauren Fleischman's book Good for a Girl here and kind of expand on what Andy was talking about, bras for girls. So this isn't a personal story, but I just have been doing a lot of educating and reading about, women in the sport and, you know, just our access in the sport and our comfortable being comfortable in the sport, especially as teens and young adults. And I think the bras for girls initiative is just such an important initiative and something that a lot of people don't even think about. Especially, like, when I was a teen, you know, I had access to sports bras and I was introduced to sports bras in a relatively I mean, I don't think I was actually ever quite fit right for a while. But a lot of like Andy said, a lot of girls are like, you know, they stop competing in sport because they don't have access to the right support, the right training, the right training tools. And that's just such a you know, so sad.

Guest 2 [00:45:55]: It's just not fair. I mean, what is fair? Right? But it's just it's it's not acceptable. And I'm just so glad that there are some organizations out there like Rosbergirls and something that, you know, whenever I read about this, I'm like, I wanna do that. And then I'm like, woah. How do you do that? But, you know, it's the learning process. It's on my mind and, you know, you talk with people and you try to figure out, you know, how to get programs going but it's definitely something on my mind. And also in Lauren's book, you know, she was talking a lot about education around women and their periods. And that's just, you know, you just see so much happening with with girls, you know, if they're in the, you know, competitive high school field and college and, just being pressured to be a certain weight and to, you know, maybe a certain way at the whole for the whole month, you know, just in a stable weight, which is not realistic for women as, you know, we have we retain water at certain times of our cycle.

Guest [00:47:12]: But it's just so

Guest 2 [00:47:15]: scary and, you know, unhealthy and it's just something that we really need to address, as females, as adults, as coaches in this industry. And the sport is just making sure that our runners are healthy and that they have the thing the tools that they need to succeed, like, you know, shoes and sports bras and but the just health around periods is just so so important because that can impact you for your whole life. So and one more thing that I just wanted to plug is, you know, specific people in my community that are making a difference in my mind, are the Richmond Trail Running Club. Some of my friends are the leaders in that running club, and they just do a lot of things that I have been wanting to do. They organized this race. One of the races that they do each year, is called Rhett Fest, and it happens on, daylight daylight savings time the the yeah. Daylight savings time. So the weekend where we gain an hour.

Guest 2 [00:48:34]: So it's a 37 hour race. So it's 36 hours, but it's the day that you gain an extra hour. And it's it's by donation. Everybody brings food. They like you know, there's a sign up sheet and you say what you're gonna bring. There's so much food there. You have to volunteer for an hour. That's part of that's part of the race.

Guest 2 [00:48:59]: And the volunteering is basically, like, making sure people are signing in when they come in, from a loop, and then they write down their time when they come in and they write down their time when they come out. Or maybe they're making food, making sandwiches for people, and it's a loop course. So it's a 4 mile loop and a 3 mile loop, and some people will just come in and run 3 their 3 mile run for the day. Some people will come in and do a hike, like, I always encourage everybody that I know, like, come to this run. It's so fun. Like, just, you know, if you if you're doing a 10 mile run or you wanna go for, like, 100 miles, whatever, it's just such an awesome community and it's such an awesome event. It's, like, one of my favorites. It's definitely one of my favorite days of the year.

Guest 2 [00:49:44]: And everyone is just so nice. They're just so giving and just, you know, you just feel like your soul is seen there and that nothing else matters other than, like, you just being someone who enjoys being outside and running and wanting to, like, be part of the community. So, I'm such a fan of them.

Cory Nagler [00:50:07]: I think we really need more of that in the sport where it doesn't feel like an obligation to to bring everyone together. It's, it it the way you described it anyways, it sounds like it's really a a community building piece as well as it is bridging some of those gaps to to diversity and equity.

Guest 2 [00:50:23]: Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:50:24]: Andy, I'm curious if you have anything to to add or or build off of that, especially since I know that you've done so much work or or spoken a lot to to Red S and and women, which is definitely something I think, Katie was was speaking to as a a primary obstacle.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:50:40]: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely find that to be I mean, I dealt with it myself for a long time, and it was mostly because I I believe that part of it started it started from some, dietary issues that I didn't know I had. But once once it kind of cascaded into, what it was, I was fixated on my weight because I didn't see myself in the the runners around me. And I so I one prob that was a problem that I had was that I, I believed that I I mean, I I always have had a little bit more of a muscular build. I'm just just a little bit bigger than some of the runners that I saw saw around me, and some of that was probably body body dysmorphia. But, one of the things that I found through that process was not having support, the the medical support for that. I've even had a doctor tell me that it was just something that happened to runners losing your period, which is absolutely not true.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:51:37]: It's there's a there's definitely an energy deficit that you're you're operating in. And even if you can get by with it, doesn't mean that it's it's good. Just because you feel good, just because you feel fine, does not mean that you are you are fine. Does not mean that you are healthy. There there could be an underlying reason why that's maybe not related to your energy deficit, but, there if you're working with a doctor, they should be interested in finding out why you are not having a period. So I think that that was the experience that I had where I wasn't being given good information. So I went on to not have a period for 9 years. And so, you know, it was because I'd been told multiple times that, like, that's normal.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:52:17]: Like, that just happens when you run, and it's absolutely not the case. And I think, you know, having more actual information that is dedicated to female athletes and having people actually research what happens to us is important, which I think the same thing is also true of, you know, black and brown individuals. Like, there there's different things that they deal with from medical's perspective that may be different than white people. We need to study every single person in order for us to have equity and how we talk about, you know, all the different things training wise. And even from a training perspective, there's things that you have to recognize that, you know, during certain times of your cycle for women, you're gonna feel different and there's different things you should capitalize on during your luteal phase versus your, follicular phase. Like there's things that we have to be mindful of and you're not gonna feel as good in the week before, this and that. And so how do you manage that? And, like Stacy Sims, we talked about this when we did a woman's health, women's health talk. She's doing the research to understand physiology of women, but there's only like a few people out there doing that at this point, which is crazy that it took us this long to start doing that.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:53:34]: Like, that's that's just super wild to me that that's even been, you know, something that hasn't been talked about. And and that brings me to to, like, the even the conversation of, Kara Goucher and Allison Felix and all of them talking about their experiences with pregnancy and how it took until 2022 and them telling these stories for, USATF to start offering maternity leave to these athletes is in insanity that we didn't have that built into contracts and that the companies were getting by with our and it's just absolutely not okay that that was even something that these women had to fight for at this point where we are in in the world. Like, this is just ridiculous that that's a conversation that, that people didn't know about until now, and it's been going on since I mean, my college coach ran professionally and then and she's in the when the nineties. So, like, we've had professional athletes for this long, and we're just now realizing that we should be offering protections. Like, it's that kind of stuff is just, things that, like, we just can't have happening anymore, and we need to have eyes on that stuff as much as possible so that that's not happening. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:54:47]: Yeah. And you you mentioned yourself, we're now seeing in most mass participation races, they're upwards of 50, 51, 52%, mostly women. So the fact you're not seeing that research is, as you said, it it's kind of absurd, to be frank.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:55:01]: Yeah. I mean, we need to know. I mean, even some doctors are, like, women shouldn't run at all during pregnancy. And, like, that may be true for some people, but it might also be not true for other people. So what is the and that women get ridiculed for training through their pre pregnancies. I've seen this on social media where people are just giving their opinion on it, and they don't know. And I don't think some doctors even know necessarily what what's right and what's what's safe. And and and runners, we all need to know that information, so it needs to be studied.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:55:31]: Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:55:32]: Definitely an area that requires more research. I think, Katie and Andy brought up some some great points. Not great in the sense that, that we wanna see more of it. Definitely, ashamed that these still exist in the running community. More work to be done. But, Dionne, do you do you have any other, elements to add either in terms of groups that are doing great work or in terms of some injustices you've seen firsthand in the sport?

Guest [00:55:56]: Well, let me start on the positive. I definitely, wanna give a shout out to I mentioned earlier, but again, black runners of the GTA, which is a group that is to try to encourage more black people into running rather recreationally or competitively. In terms of giving you stories about injustices, honey, we don't have time. We'd be here for an hour because, I mean, I wear many different hats, whether it be, as a fitness and lifestyle coach, you know, many times having to walk into a space, a studio, or a club, and being treated like I was the help when I'm actually here, the instructor, I'm the person, you know, leading the group to, just dealing with a lot of the pay inequities. You know, I've discovered by accident many times that I was getting paid less than my white counterparts who had less my less less credentials than I did. Even after getting, in 2017 the fitness professional of the year, too many times as black people we have have to fly, we have to have all these amazing credentials and then still get paid less or have to you know prove ourselves 10 times over just to get, you know, a cost of living increase, things of that nature. So we I could go on. We we don't have time to go through everything.

Guest [00:57:12]: But, yeah, it's rather than continuing to talk about, all these different stories, I think it's, it's beneficial to really take a look at the systems behind what allows this to take place. It's kind of like the, with the me too movement. I felt that initially it was a good intention to be able to bring out the stories of women that were suffering, but then they kind of lost, I think, that were they an opportunity where they could have actually said, we need to look at the system and dismantle the systems that's allowing for these things to happen rather than just individual people to talk to go after them. So I think it's the same thing in the running and and also in the fitness industry as a whole is you gotta look up the systems to see how is it that these things are allowed where people can have more credentials but getting paid less or not being qualified to be on, coaches and and management and but they're but they're good enough to run for free, you know, in a in a track meet or in a in a competition where they're not maybe being compensated or being supported, but then they're not being also represented on the management side or on the resource side where they can get access to that stuff. So, you know, I think that it's important that we look at that as a whole and and and do the necessary changes. And sometimes the people in power may not want to give up their power so then it takes the public to put the pressure and say, you know what? This is not right. This has to change or perhaps we will move our our our dollars somewhere else with an organization that's going to actually make the changes necessary that we see equity as well as diversity and inclusion. But the equity piece for me is is the should be a capital e, and then the d and the I can also be included on the on the, you know, on a lesser note in the sense of the importance of equity in my in my opinion.

Cory Nagler [00:58:57]: Yeah. About creating creating that level playing field. I think you spoke to the George Floyd murder earlier. And another thing that comes top of mind when we talk about the pay piece is when the, American women's team had, were in the headlines with their their lesser pay. And there there's outrage in the moment, but it's it's so rare that you see that continued discussion around what are those systemic barriers that actually allow this to happen. So I I I'm glad you touched on that. These these are really not one off issues, and they've they go on for way longer than they should be allowed to.

Andie Cozzarelli [00:59:27]: Yeah. I was gonna say, I think it was Abby Wombach in her book. She wrote a book recently, and I think that we listened to I think it was Abby Wombach. She was talking about leadership, and like Dion said, it's it's that part where you have to you're not like women were women for a long time are were essentially fighting for, say, 2 seats at a table of 10, whereas it shouldn't be just 2 seats. We should be fighting to take more space as opposed to being competitive with each other for those spaces. And I found that super interesting because that's how it should be. I mean, we should be we should just be forcing them to to make that change. So, yeah, I think that it's that's a huge piece.

Andie Cozzarelli [01:00:10]: And then also just like, if if you're, in the majority, like, if you're a white person or, especially if you're a white male, not necessarily always thinking that you can make the decisions for the minority. You know, like, we you don't a as opposed of telling them what they need. And I think that's something that needs to change the good bit is is recognizing that they're, like, these people need to talk. It we don't need to talk over them. We don't need to decide for them. So, yeah, I find that to be something I've I've noticed that I feel like we we have we could do better in.

Guest [01:00:54]: As I say, no conversation about us should be without us. Yep. Talk about me. I should be in the room. Right. Be part of it.

Cory Nagler [01:01:02]: Yeah. A 100%. And and a theme this evening is we do need more conversations like that. And, I do want to finish off with a positive note. So I I wanna hear from each of you and and some of your thoughts of what runners can do in their own community to create positive change. And we'll speak to all of, diversity, equity, and inclusion. But, Dion, maybe I'll pass it to you first, and we can capitalize and and give an extra large, capitalization to the equity piece.

Guest [01:01:30]: Yeah. I think I thought about this, and I and I thought, you know, as individual runners, a lot of times you think, what can I do? I'm I'm I don't I'm not on the board of directors of whatever company have you. But you know, each of us can certainly we have our purchasing power. That is something that you can do. So, if you see a company or you see a group and you don't see the diversity and inclusion there, then perhaps you know, writing to them, you know, respectfully. We don't need to be mean. People on the internet can be so mean sometimes. But you know, we can write to them and just say, you know, I think that there might be a blind spot here and an opportunity that you're missing and what are you doing? Like, asking them to to be transparent about their plans, about what are they actually doing, what are the plans that they have to make sure that that wherever they are operating their business represents the demographics of the people that are there and if there is a disconnect there, then maybe suggesting, I think I might want to make put my dollars to a company that respects the the the people around them in their in their environment.

Guest [01:02:29]: So that's one thing I would suggest is know the power of your purchase and, and use it.

Cory Nagler [01:02:36]: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one. Andy, maybe I'll, I'll pass it to you if you wanna give your thoughts on DEI, and and Katie will come right back to you.

Andie Cozzarelli [01:02:44]: Yeah. One thing that I've thought about is, like, how participating in spaces that, say anyone, you know, black communities, Hispanic, any of those that they're putting on. So not trying to create, like, events for them, but, like, kind of trying to be trying to go to the the things that they're creating, to make them, like, to so that you that you're basically participating in something they're doing, which improves it, or something like that. I think that's probably, a good way. And I know, one of my athletes has a podcast, that's I think it's running running well brown. I I need to look up the name. I'll have to you have to link it in the podcast. But she's doing some stuff where she's talking to, different BIPOC individuals about their experiences in running.

Andie Cozzarelli [01:03:35]: And so I think educating yourself on that and hearing those things, recognizing the differences is important. And then, but she they she started doing a Latino. They do a Latinos run and they do a unity run, which is, like, with black girls run, black men run, and Latinos run Raleigh, and they all get together for a run. And she had actually invited myself and, the coaches that she knew in the area to come run with them, which I found to be, I think, oh, such a great experience. And so that was, I think, something that was helpful for me. So finding those types of opportunities to kind of immerse yourself a little bit better, I think is is helpful. So

Cory Nagler [01:04:13]: Yeah. For sure. Katie, I apologize for the technical issues, but, proof for everyone listening that we are recording these live. Do you wanna give us your thoughts?

Guest 2 [01:04:22]: That was me. I put myself on mute. Sure. I actually had same thoughts as Dionne. Seeking out, supporting, participating in groups that are promoting diversity, equity, inclusion. You're like like Dionne said, your dollars matter. They're your vote. So, that's a huge thing for me.

Guest 2 [01:04:49]: And, like, Andy, I think Andy said this, understanding what you that what you need is not necessarily what other people's need. That that was you. Right, Andy? That's very important as well. And I don't know. In my mind, like, I just feel like as white runners, I think we should get comfortable getting a little uncomfortable. I think comfort isn't a right, and nor is it good for our growth. I think white people in this country are just I I think our society has has kind of, preached it as a right in some ways and it just it that is bad for our growth. It's bad for diversity.

Guest 2 [01:05:36]: It's bad for equity and inclusion. And I think that learning about anti racism is is actually one big step that, some that runners can take. I am diving into it now and it it's very uncomfortable. It it I don't know. I feel defensive at times and then I'm like, hey. Why like, you shouldn't be feeling defensive right now. Like, I don't know. It's it's a whole thing And, I think I think it's really important.

Guest 2 [01:06:05]: So I encourage everybody to start start learning and, you know, start and get involved.

Cory Nagler [01:06:14]: Yeah. A 100%. We we do have to keep the podcast a certain length. I I wish we could keep speaking. And as as Dion said, you could have this conversation all day because there are so many issues to tackle. And on a more positive note, so many actions people can take to make a positive difference. So I definitely wanna link a lot of the resources that we talked about today, and and I hope everyone listening learned lots. But, Andy, Katie, Dion, thank you so much for joining me today.

Guest [01:06:41]: Thanks for having me. Great discussion.

Andie Cozzarelli [01:06:44]: Thank you.

Guest 2 [01:06:45]: Thank you.

Guest [01:06:45]: Nice meeting you also.

Guest 2 [01:06:46]: Yeah. Nice meeting you. Everyone.

Cory Nagler [01:06:48]: This was great. Nice meeting everyone, and for those listening, happy running. Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at Corey underscore Nagler. Birth your Strava by searching Corey Nagler. And please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

Cory Nagler [01:07:30]: Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, then consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netforward/podcast. I'll see you on the next show, but until then, happy running, everyone.