Building Community For Larger-Bodied Runners

Guest [00:00:05]: Good morning, good evening, good afternoon to wherever you at in the world. My name

Guest [00:00:08]: is Martinez Evans, and you're listening to the Run to the Top podcast.

Finn Melanson [00:00:13]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn Melanson, and This is the Run to the Top podcast. The podcast dedicated to making you a better runner with each and every episode. You're created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Martinez Evans' doctor told him that He needed to lose weight, but also that he couldn't run. Martinez felt otherwise. He said he was gonna start training for a marathon that day. The rest is history.

Finn Melanson [00:00:53]: Over the past few years, Martinez wrote a book called The Slow AF Running Club, has built an impressive like minded running community that supports Nontraditional runners in larger bodies and has appeared on podcasts like this one in major events across the running world to share his message and vision for growing the running community. In this episode, we talk about his entry point into the running community and what kept him inspired in those early days, Why running is not necessarily a weight loss journey for larger bodied runners? Whether the running community is becoming less intimidating to enter into? Advice for runners struggling with doubt and insecurity when it comes to their athletic abilities, how to cope with pressure to be faster and to achieve personal bests, And lessons learned from building a running community for slower runners. No matter your perspective on the running community, I think you will find this to be an interesting and thought provoking conversation. Beat the stress of the holiday season with Stress Guardian from Bioptimizers. It's packed with a blend of 14 adaptogenic herbs that help to regulate your stress response naturally. Learn more at stressguardian.comforward/run to the top. If you're looking for the most effectively dosed electrolyte Drink for runners. Check out Element.

Finn Melanson [00:02:14]: It's loaded with everything you need to replenish your electrolyte balance, and you can get a free sample pack by going to drink lmnt.comforward/runnersconnect. Martinez Evans, it is a pleasure to have you on the Run to the Top podcast. How are you doing today?

Guest [00:02:35]: Coming off a little cold, man. Like, I caught COVID, afternoon. And it's been kicking my butt.

Finn Melanson [00:02:42]: I've been there and I'm bracing myself to Inevitably run into that at some point in the next few months, but excited to be with you here today. We are talking about a book you recently wrote called The Slow AF Club And, you know, I read this a few months back, but the book starts out strong and and there's one particular story you tell Very early on in the book where I think you're with your doctor and you tell your doctor that that you're gonna run a marathon And they, you know, they kinda just, like, look at you, maybe they laugh at you, or or they just say, like, you know, you're crazy for thinking that. But sort of in defiance of their instructions, you go ahead and do it, and it kinda kicks off this this running journey. So I'd I'd love for you to talk about that more. And then just like any other stories or anecdotes from your your running experience, your early running experience that that influenced the content of this book.

Guest [00:03:36]: Absolutely. So let's take it back to 2012, July 2012. I was working at, Men's Warehouse, which is a, suit sale. You know, like It's a it's a suit company, right? So working at Men's Wearhouse, commission sales on my feet, 8 to 10 hours a day. I wanna go see a doctor because I developed some hip pain. You know, yeah. I'm on my feet for 10 hours a day in hard bottom dress shoes, which is probably like the worst thing that you can probably wear after while being on your feet for that long. So I went to this doctor, never seen this doctor a day in my life.

Guest [00:04:08]: Like, I went to him because it's like, you know, maybe it's something Maybe it's something bigger than just me standing on my feet. So we're gonna see this doctor, and he he looks at me, he's like, I know why you in pain. Okay. Like why why I'm in pain? Like, you ain't put a stethoscope on me, you ain't touch me or nothing. And he was like, you're fat. You need to lose weight or you're gonna die. And I was I was, like, taken aback. Right? One, I was taking it back because never met this doctor a day in my life.

Guest [00:04:41]: This doctor is a orthopedic surgeon. So he's, like, not even a PCP, like, he's He's a orthopedic surgeon. And then like the third thing is like, he don't know nothing about me. So he goes on to say like, you need to lose you need to start walking on the track to start losing weight, yada yada yada. And I was like, that's asinine because I'm on my feet 10 hours a day at this job. Like, that's why I'm here. Like, if you would listen to me, you'll understand, like, this is why I'm here. I'm on my feet 10 hours a day.

Guest [00:05:13]: And, you know, so he's like, well, you need to start walking. You need to lose weight and all this other stuff. So being frustrated, I told him I was gonna run a marathon. You know, part of it was being facetious because like he's telling me I need to start walking on the track and I'm like, I'm already on my feet 10 hours a day. So I'm like, screw that, screw you, I'm a run a marathon. He laughs at me. Biggest laugh, like like I was telling a joke, Like he was laughing with me, but instead, he was laughing at me. And he told me, if I tried to run a marathon, I would die.

Guest [00:05:46]: Afternoon. So now it's like, this is the 2nd time you didn't told me I'm gonna die. So let's see the lose weight or die, and if I try to run the marathon, I was gonna die as well. So we're just sitting there, like, in this impasse, like, well, what did you want me to do? Because the advice that you've given me is not making sense. Afternoon. So there were I I said a lot of choice, 4 letter words that I won't say on this podcast, but I still went at the doctor's office. And I was so pissed that as I was driving home, I drove past a running shoe store. Afternoon.

Guest [00:06:22]: What now to believe it was a fleet feat. And, went in there and told them I need running shoes and I need it now. Afternoon. Got them running shoes, got home, got on the treadmill, was inconveniently sandwiched in between 2 gazelles. And 15 seconds later, I fell off the treadmill. So so like that that afternoon. That was my origin story, right? Bigger guy, I played collegiate football. I was years away from that.

Guest [00:07:00]: Now I'm in my regular life day job as a regular human being working as a suit salesman. Afternoon. Develop pain. The doctor called me fat, told me a loose way to die. I told him, screw that. I'm a run a marathon. He laugh at me. I buy running shoes, and I get on treatment.

Guest [00:07:17]: Afternoon. And for me, that was like a loose thread. Right? It was a loose thread because At that point, like, I remember saying myself, like, I've never seen a fat marathoner. Like, this is back in 2012. So like, afternoon. We came, well, almost 11 years. So like 11 years from when this happened. So yeah, you never seen a fat marathoner.

Guest [00:07:40]: I didn't have running clothes my size. No running coach would take me on as a client even though I I had the money because they was afraid that I was gonna hurt myself and they was gonna be responsible for it. So like these are just all loose threads that I just continue to pull and pull at In order for me to like teach myself how to run, so I end up being a certified run coach to teach myself how to run.

Finn Melanson [00:08:03]: Yeah.

Guest [00:08:04]: Which then afternoon. Being able to teach others how to run, which then lead into, where we at now talking to you, but also this book. Afternoon. Also, the slugging front club, the real slugging front club that has 30,000 members worldwide which, you know, is something that I'm quite proud of.

Finn Melanson [00:08:24]: One thing that I'm curious about from that story, a lot of runners that I talk to when when they think about their their origin story, their intro to the sport, it is Very important that early on, almost immediately, there is positive reinforcement around them and there are people Or there are events, etcetera, that are that are encouraging them to sort of keep going. And in your case, it didn't sound like there were that many Examples of that, and it was really more just you being extremely self motivated. Would you agree with that, or or were there any other stories there that that kept you kinda, like, On the journey, motivated, inspired, etcetera.

Guest [00:08:58]: Man, I was effing mad. Like, spite. Afternoon. Unadulterated spite is what kept me motivated for that least, you know, until I ran my 1st marathon, like spite. Afternoon. I wanted to take my medal and throw it in a doctor's face and be like, in your face. Afternoon. So that that was that was the thing.

Guest [00:09:23]: And then eventually, you start to like, oh, Like I guess I do kinda like this thing. Like I guess I am having fun. I guess I'm meeting interesting people and so on and so forth.

Finn Melanson [00:09:36]: I mean, I don't know. My my my current take on the last, let's call it, 3 to 5 years of of Running media is that there's maybe a strong emphasis on on using only sort of, like, positive emotions and positive experiences to fuel your journey, but, You know, you're saying that you you can convert some of these negative emotions and negative experiences into quite a runway to ultimately making it this positive sustainable thing. I think that's It's pretty cool. It's definitely a shift in in in the narrative.

Guest [00:10:05]: Absolutely. And that's the thing. Right? Like, running is not all gumdrops. Like, it's not all rainbows. It's not like, we all don't have a great run every run. So yes, I had to use a different thing. Positive motivation wasn't for me. It was I was damn mad.

Guest [00:10:26]: Yeah. And, like, I I you know, it was I got so mad. Like, one of the things, like, I want to hit the doctor. I wanted to play put I want to, like how do I like to say it? I wanted to give him a deep little tissue massage with my fist. Right. Just kneading just kneading my fist against his face. Afternoon. And I couldn't do that.

Guest [00:10:46]: So you have to put that energy somewhere. And I think for me, it was like, well, screw it. I'm a put it into this running because I can't put hands on them. That that's not generally accepted, but I can pound this payment.

Finn Melanson [00:11:02]: In the in the years following, have have your experiences with the medical community, especially as you've gotten more into running, become more positive? And and Do the nurses and the doctors are can they can they wrap their minds more around this whole running thing? Or and and or and was this doctor, like, an exception to the norm, or Was he really, like, symptomatic of a pretty larger problem?

Guest [00:11:22]: He's very symptomatic of a very large problem. I would say it's a mixed bag. I don't know what doctor I'm a get afternoon. Or what their experience is or or what their beliefs in me is gonna get whenever I meet a new doctor. And I I think that It's one of those things where, like, you have to learn how to advocate for yourself in order to get by. And sometimes that mean going to multiple doctors. Sometimes that means leaving out of doctors, like just leaving straight out of a doctor's appointment and being like, nope, not for me. I'm out of here.

Guest [00:11:55]: Like, screw you guys. I'm going home. And some of that means, like, being combative, like, with these doctors. Right? Like, Over the years, like, I I kinda think of doctors as nail techs. Nail technicians who Went to school for a very long time to learn something, right? Just like a nail tech, right? Like they they had to to figure out how to get their certification. Same thing as doctors. Right? And what I like to tell people is that just like a nail tech, when you encounter a bad one, Guess what you can do? You don't have to go see that nail tech again. Go to another one.

Guest [00:12:36]: There's an always a nail salon on every other afternoon there. Just about like there's always another doctor's office on every other corner. So we have choices. And I think for a lot of people, getting people to understand that we have choices in. Like, yes, you might have to shift through it to find the right one or to find the right one for you. But once you find it, You're good to go.

Finn Melanson [00:12:58]: Switching gears a little bit, you know, a lot of people, myself included on, so like similar to you, I I had a I played football in college, and there was like a multiyear gap there where I felt like I was getting out of shape. I lacked discipline and direction and, You know, running for me was an outlet to kinda get back into that that that football way. But anyways, a lot of people get into running Motivated to lose weight. Not always for good, not always for bad, but you explicitly say in the book that you're that running is not a weight loss journey.

Guest [00:13:27]: Mhmm.

Finn Melanson [00:13:28]: I'd love for you to talk about that more.

Guest [00:13:33]: Afternoon. The best way to explain this in is that I've been in a bigger body my whole life. Right? Like, I've been a big dude, like, my whole life. And When there's this whole notion of like, if you're a bigger person and you're exercising, like, you're a good fat. Right? And you're a good fat person because you're no longer trying to be fat anymore. And so as a person who's like Lost weight, gained weight, lost it again, played collegiate football, don't didn't play it anymore, started running, ran for 10 years. Like one of the things you will just understand is that your body is just gonna change regardless. And I think the thing that Stay consistent with me.

Guest [00:14:19]: It's physical activity. And as a person who, like, also, like, did the research. So Little background on me. I have a bachelor's in exercise science, a master's in health promotion, which is like a subset of like public health. I have, grad certificates in health education. So like one of the things you start to understand is like afternoon. That whole adage of like, oh, you need to be healthy by exercising and losing weight, I think a lot of people put so much focus on the losing weight part versus the exercising part. Because people think like, oh, like, I can just fast or I can eat less or I can eat salads and, like, not necessarily do the x the hard exercise part to like lose weight and then I become healthy.

Guest [00:15:10]: And that's not necessarily the case. And one of the things I like to tell people is that, afternoon. There's tons of research that says, like, regardless if you lose weight or not, like regular physical activity It's good for all the things that they say losing weight is good for. Lower a one c's, longer longevity, Lower blood pressure, lower cholesterol. So all of those things that people think they're associated with, like Just losing weight together Yeah. Can also be associated with exercise. Afternoon. So for me, it's more about, like, putting the medicine in the sugar pill to say, like, Stop worrying about the numbers on the scale because like they're gonna do whatever regardless.

Guest [00:16:03]: But if you just focus on consistent movement, like whatever that thing is for you, like, that will sustain you afternoon. Throughout your life, a lot more better than a temporary 20 pound, 30 pound weight loss that you're probably gonna gain back a few months down the line.

Finn Melanson [00:16:23]: One thing I'm curious about so, like, if you if you compare, you know, the moment you had that conversation with that doctor a few years back to now, talk about what's improved in your life either in your running or your health. Like, how do you feel like you're a different person now perhaps from a health standpoint than you were 4 or 5 years ago.

Guest [00:16:43]: So that's the thing. Right? Like, overall, my health was decent. Like, I just had hip pain. Like Yeah. Like, I started a new job. And I went from, like, not being on my feet to being on my feet. Right? So I would say overall, like, afternoon. My health has been decent, but I would say what has empowered me is to continue to ask questions afternoon, and continue to, like, follow my gut in ways that I wouldn't have gotten if I have started running.

Guest [00:17:17]: So what that mean? Right? When you run, right, like, you know, like, oh, I got a long run coming up tomorrow, but the wife wanna go to brunch. Afternoon. You know, you probably know you probably should be eating that oatmeal and not drinking mimosa. Right? Afternoon. You you probably know that because you know that's gonna come out the hard way the next tomorrow. Just like when you go to a doctor and they tell you something or like just like when it comes to your health, and it's like, something's not right about me, Like, something's not right about my body. Like, let me get this checked out. And I think, you know, I think a lot of people missed the point of, Like, oh, me being a 300 pound man running marathons and so on and so forth.

Guest [00:18:02]: And I was like, oh, he his health must be ridiculous. His knees must be ridiculous, all this other stuff. And it's like, do you know, like, the amount of work that it goes through to to do this? Amount of doctor's appointments I go to. Right? Afternoon. Amount of blood draws I go get just to make sure like all of my, all of my numbers are together, right? Like I think that When you become an athlete and you become more health focused, like, you do more of those things because you also know how that can affect afternoon. Your performance later down the line. So I was like, oh, my run was my my last couple of runs has been whack. I took a I took a week off and I'm still kinda feeling out of it.

Guest [00:18:45]: Like, you know what, let me go get my let me go get my my let me go get a blood draw. Like, let me go see if anything's off, Right? Like, I think those are the things that has improved in me since I became a runner versus then when I didn't become a runner when I wasn't a runner.

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Guest [00:21:40]: So I think one of the things that transpired in this Fleet Feet that I really give kudos to Fleet Feet and why they have like a A special place in my heart is that like, dude, the person treated me like a human being. Like I went there and I was like, I'm gonna run a marathon. Like, imagine wanting them, like, I need running shoes. I need them now. And then, like, the guy be like instead of being like, okay, fat man. Like, afternoon. You know, go get out of here. Right? For them, he was like, well, what do you need them for? Like, tell me more.

Guest [00:22:09]: Like, why do you need running shoes now? Like, what changed? Afternoon. Like, what changed? What? Like, what do you wanna do? What what do you what do you wanna do with these running shoes? Right? So I feel like he treated me like a human being. Right? I think one of the things that I did see that was a misstep, and it's not necessarily like all flea feasts, but I think it's just like running shoe stores in general, afternoon. It's like, I'm a size 15 type of guy. Most running shoes go up to a size 15. Right? But that's not like the afternoon. End of the size run. Most running shoe stores maybe stop at a size 13.

Guest [00:22:46]: So for them, afternoon. Alright. These are your goals. This is what you wanna do. Like, let's let's do the gait analysis. Let's find the right shoe for you. And then him going back and being like, Oh, well, I only have these 2 shoes for you. It's like, I know that we have all of these shoes, so we can special order all these shoes.

Guest [00:23:04]: But as of right now, these are the 2 shoes we got for you. Afternoon. And I think that that is something that all running shoe stores across the nation's kinda facing. Afternoon. It it becomes like this, chicken or egg situation. Like, are people aside Not not coming into the running shoe stores because historically, they don't have stuff to fit them? Or it hasn't been historically, afternoon. They haven't had anything to fit them, so that's why they don't come. And I think that's something that Even 10 years from now, that's something that we're still trying to work on and improve.

Guest [00:23:48]: Afternoon. And one of the things well, one of the ways we we started to do that is that, I don't know if you know about TRE, the running event.

Finn Melanson [00:23:54]: I was just there.

Guest [00:23:55]: Oh, I was there too.

Finn Melanson [00:23:56]: In Austin. Oh, I missed you. I should've said hi.

Guest [00:23:58]: So, like, I spoke at a panel there.

Finn Melanson [00:24:00]: Okay.

Guest [00:24:03]: Afternoon. Helping owners of runner shoe stores to understand like the benefits of having extended sizing, or plus size and whatever you wanna call it. Like, I know there are so many terms about, like, what what do you wanna call clothes at a larger size? I just call them clothes. Right? Afternoon. So I really trying to figure out, like, the benefit of that, but also talking to the brands to also let them know, like, the benefit of it, afternoon. The benefit of having these plus size clothing or offering these clothings as well. Because I think that's the problem is that afternoon. If the running brands don't provide it, where are the running shops just supposed to get the clothes from to to sell it?

Finn Melanson [00:24:46]: Yeah. Where else in your experience have you seen, you know, larger bodied runners being underserved in the community that That might be worthwhile to talk about here and just sort of make the run to the top community more aware about.

Guest [00:25:05]: My favorite one is when running club say, all paces are welcome. Instantly, when I see that, I eye roll and be like, nope, not for me. Afternoon. Because basically, what that mean is this, all paces are welcome up to a 10 minute mile. And if you run slower than the 10 minute mile, You're not welcome here. We don't have nothing to support you. We don't know how to support you. It's almost like speaking in another language when you get there.

Finn Melanson [00:25:30]: So that's really code. That that that's code for 10 minutes and and faster?

Guest [00:25:34]: Yes.

Finn Melanson [00:25:36]: Where else?

Guest [00:25:43]: Shit, man. Like, what afternoon. Like, we can just go on the rant, like, shit from from afternoon. From, shirt sizing shirt sizes and and races.

Finn Melanson [00:26:00]: K.

Guest [00:26:00]: I can count on my hand how many races, afternoon. Shirts that I have that I can actually fit? 3. And I brand hundreds of races. Large racists, small racists, world majors. And I only have 3 race shirts that can fit me.

Finn Melanson [00:26:20]: What was the reception to your talk at TRE? Was it was it pretty good? Was it was it muted? Were was there any pushback?

Guest [00:26:27]: So, Fin, let me tell you this because I thought that like, I I thought after this talk, I've really changed the world. So After we get done, this old white guy stands up, like and I thought this is about to, like, run off the tracks. And he's like, you know, I've been in this industry for almost 30 years. And I'm thinking to myself, oh, shit. Here it comes. Afternoon. This is by far the best presentation that I've been through it been to to all the conferences that I've been to here. This should be the keynote afternoon, versus just a side panel.

Guest [00:27:04]: So it shows that, like, people are interested and wanna be a part of of this. Afternoon. But systematically, there's so many there's so many, like, roadblocks in play that's stopping them. Afternoon. So for example, let's talk about roadblock. So you think of the large company, this large sportswear companies in the afternoon. Right? They as much as they're like, afternoon. We we're about like inclusivity, and we're inclusivity, but inclusive, but we also wanna make money.

Guest [00:27:46]: Afternoon. If that was the case, historically, they say what, 70% of the United States is overweight or obese? Like 70%, and there's that number, 75%, somewhere like that?

Finn Melanson [00:27:57]: Roughly.

Guest [00:27:59]: That's the majority. So if that's the majority of the population, why are these running brands and these athletic sportswear companies Only serving 25% or less of the population. If you like money, It was me. Right? If you like money, wouldn't you wanna serve the majority? Like, I got a degree in marketing. Isn't there this notion of, like, blue ocean strategy? Like Right? Like, here's this blue ocean of, like, 70 70%, 80% plus overweight people afternoon. Who can't get close? This is the blue ocean. But instead, These brands still focus on this minority, this very small minority. And I think for me, Like as a plus size guy who's like, got all these grades, got degrees in market, like, it just don't make sense to me Financially, because like even if you just did the most minimum amount of work To provide for this population of people, like the majority of the population of people, You I would think that, like, numbers, stock, everything would just go up because Now you serve serve serving a majority amount of people who's not being served.

Finn Melanson [00:29:36]: This is fascinating. And I love talking marketing. So let's get into this. Like, when you look at that 75% of the United States, in your experience based, in your conversations, your research, You know, being at TRE, etcetera, roughly what percent of that 75% Is like the running equivalent of ready to buy versus needing to be educated and activated and it's part of this, you know, massive years long process?

Guest [00:30:03]: Oh, man. That's a great question, fan. Like, it it it I almost want to, like, pause this And, like, go get my book proposal where I, like, did the numbers of, like, This is how many runners in are, like this is what percent of population is runners. This is what percent of population is overweight. And this was a percent of population that could be that could potentially be runners who who who are overweight. And this is the market. Right? And then you add a dollar amount to that. I did that in my book proposal.

Guest [00:30:38]: So, like, that's that's what it make me wanna do.

Finn Melanson [00:30:42]: Let's just, like, think about the last 5 years

Guest [00:30:44]: Yes.

Finn Melanson [00:30:45]: And and and what's either changed or stayed the same. Would you say that the running community is Still like more intimidating to enter into? Is it more welcoming to enter into? What are your thoughts there?

Guest [00:30:57]: It's a lot more welcoming than it has been like afternoon. When I started, 10 years ago or even 5 years ago. Right? I think there's a lot more, grassroots clubs that are bouncing up or popping up that are like serving, these populations that Hasn't typically be served. So I think about like local clubs, like we off the couch in Virginia, we run 313 in Detroit, afternoon. Peace runners in Chicago. For 2 goods in Chicago, right? Like these are all like grassroots running clubs who are like supporting afternoon. Plus size are slower individuals. But, like, largely, in the majority, afternoon.

Guest [00:31:44]: There's still there's still it's still the number or like the the it's still like the regular rigmarole when it comes to it. Afternoon. It's starting to change, like and and I wanna say, like, all hope is lost. But I think, like

Finn Melanson [00:32:03]: What's an example of where you're seeing a change?

Guest [00:32:05]: Alright. Any end of my monumental marathon. The race director came to me, I met him at, I think, Running USA last year. Came to me and said, you know, he he came to me, he's like, you're the guy that was on the cover of Runner's World. And I was like, yeah. And he was like, you know, you you share it with me the 1st chapter of your book as well. And I was like, yeah. And he's like, well, I just wanna let you know that like I read your story, like I hear you out and one One of the things that we're doing is we're going to increase our shirt sizes up to 3 x to all of our all of our races.

Finn Melanson [00:32:43]: Afternoon. That's awesome.

Guest [00:32:44]: So I was like, oh, damn. Like, somebody's actually listening. They're like, I feel like it's something I've been, Like, complain about forever because the thing is is like, well, how much more is additional size?

Finn Melanson [00:32:56]: Yeah.

Guest [00:32:56]: Over over, afternoon. What is it called? Cost adjusted over thousands of shirts. Like, how much how much more is 20 3 x shirts If you already ordered 20,000 shirts

Finn Melanson [00:33:12]: That seems like a really good example of, you know, Making people aware of something that can be fixed overnight, how much of what you're working on do you think is like a multiyear, even multi decade process versus like Things that like overnight, you could flip a switch and like your worldview is is more common?

Guest [00:33:32]: It's it's more or less a a 2 pronged approach, right? Afternoon. So I think me putting a book out there is a start, right? Because most How to books or how to manuals are written by elite athletes or coaches of elite athletes. Right? So I remember reading 1, like, one of Meb's book. And for him, he'd be like, oh, you know, he broke down, like, what he'll bring on each run. And then for, like, a 5 k, it was like, oh, you don't need not you don't need any water or anything like that for a 5 k. And I'm thinking to myself like, shit. For who? Mel, I'm not like, I know you probably doing a 5 k. You know, you're doing 5 minute miles, but, like, I'm out there 45 minutes plus.

Guest [00:34:17]: I'm gonna need a water, And I'm a need a snack. So I just remember reading, like, these types of books or even going through, like, the RunCoat certification. So I'm a RRCA afternoon. TA run coach, certified. Right? Yeah. And I remember they gave us, the Jack Daniel's book on running. And then being like, oh, this is the bible. And then you go on, like, all of the running forms, Let's Run, Reddit, like, wherever else you get your running information.

Guest [00:34:46]: Afternoon. And they're like, oh, yes. The best book for running. This is everything you need to know. Don't pick up any other book. And then you read it As a 15 minute, 16 minute, 17 minute mile runner, none of that stuff is useful. Afternoon. Yeah.

Guest [00:35:04]: So, like, none of that stuff is useful for me. You look at the pace charts. They stop at a 13 minute mile. Hell, I came in, like, I came in, calculate my v.02. So I was like, none of this stuff is for me. None of this stuff is meant for me. And then, if you wonder why, like, people are like, oh, I'm not a runner. Or like, yeah, they gotta do all this other stuff.

Guest [00:35:31]: You know, I'm not a runner. Not a serious runner. I'm not a runner like that. Because, like, When you look at everything out there, there's nothing out there that says like, you look at a chart and you go down, it's like, oh, that's my pace. Alright, I can do this workout or this workout. Afternoon. None of that stuff is there.

Finn Melanson [00:35:49]: I'm more on the the trail running side of things in my day to day life, so 13 minute miles are smoking fast. That's where the chart would begin.

Guest [00:35:57]: Yeah. So it's it's it's all of those things. Right? So, like, That's gonna take years of work of, like, getting people to, like, change their mind or like or like people like myself to like, alright, afternoon. Let me rework this. Like, these are all the stuff that I had to do to rework it. And then there's stuff like races where afterno order the fucking 3 act shirt. Like, just order it. Offer it and order it.

Guest [00:36:25]: So what? It might only be 20 of them. So what? You might have to pay the premium on it. But if you cost it over the 20,000 shirts that you have to order it, What? Additional 5¢ more?

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Finn Melanson [00:37:38]: Learn more at land rover usa.comforward/defender. Switching gears again, I mentioned earlier, like, I'm Within the running community, I'm more personally trail oriented. I don't do as much road running stuff. And in the trail space, I'm not sure, you know, how how Tapped into what you are. I see it as more of like a soul sport, kinda like surfing or climbing, more of like a lifestyle sport. Like, it's less x's and o scientific. You know, the community is more like, Oh, did you get through it? Versus like how fast did you do it? And I know you talk a lot in your book about How how a lot of runners, especially in the road space, I'm I'm presuming, feel pressured to to be faster and achieve their personal bests. So I'd love for you to talk about, you know, how your book and just how your philosophy challenges a lot of those notions and maybe alternative ways that you can kinda be a runner in the community.

Guest [00:38:35]: Alright, fair. Let's break it down. One of the things I learned, about road races, about road running, afternoon. Is that most races are permitted as a parade. Afternoon. Most races are permitted as a parade. Most races are permitted as a parade. So, like, In most regions, most cities, there's not not even a permit for a road race.

Guest [00:39:08]: It's permitted as a parade. Afternoon. So we're all just participating in a a a glorified parade. Afternoon. So let's just start there. We're participating in the parade. So if you're not an elite runner, afternoon. Just trying to get 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place.

Guest [00:39:30]: None of this stuff even matters to you. For sure, it shouldn't matter afternoon because you're participating in a parade, a parade that you paid for to get a useless piece of metal at the end of it. Afternoon. Now you add in, now you add in, like, qualifications, afternoon. Boston qualifier or like any race that has, like, a qualifying time. What you're really doing is just excluding people afternoon. To make it feel like, like they're better than somebody else, to get into a parade afternoon, that they're still not competing to get money for. So when you think about it in that sense, We're all just amateur runners, even Boston qualifiers.

Guest [00:40:23]: You're all just amateur runners who just happens to run a little bit faster The other amateur runners, but not fast enough to compete for the real thing. So So if you're not competing for the real thing, you're just back here with the rest of us. You just happen to run a little bit faster. Afternoon. And I think that, like, if more people start to think about it that way in the way that I think about this, like, like, we could single handedly change the running industry. Afternoon. Yeah. But instead, like like, I don't wanna get into my conspiracy theory, but, like like, big running.

Guest [00:40:59]: Like, Like, big running. Big running want us to feel like we wanna be stronger, faster, better, nah. But, like

Finn Melanson [00:41:07]: They wanna tear us apart.

Guest [00:41:08]: Big money wants to tear us apart and make us compete and make us feel like we're competing against each other Even though we should be competing against ourselves.

Finn Melanson [00:41:24]: Okay. In in that world view, which by the way I think is is very compelling, I think it's great food for thought for this audience, where do you How do you strike a balance, I guess, between pushing yourself and trying to improve yourself in your in your your your situation in life While also enjoying the process, being a part of the parade, being a part of the celebration.

Guest [00:41:45]: Easy. Don't be a douchebag about it. Afternoon. It's easy. Don't be a douchebag about it. Don't like, You're not morally superior because you run faster and you Boston qualify. You're that that'll make you a morally superior person.

Finn Melanson [00:42:06]: Afternoon. And I and I meant it more in the context of like getting better at your craft Yeah. For yourself and, you know, obviously like, you know, just like Yeah. To the extent that you you care about just like seeing seeing the end game of your potential, that kind of caring.

Guest [00:42:21]: I think you still can do that. Right? Like like, I do that in my my everyday, right, like, me afternoon, competing against myself in order to like make myself better and know that. Right? And the thing is is like I have my own internal markers afternoon. That helps me to do that. So I think that's the difference of, like, being internally focused or, like, internally, in tune with yourself afternoon. Versus, like, externally in tune with yourself or, like, externally focused. Right? And I think for a lot of people And they're like, we use in Boston, but, like, we can just say any race that has a qualifier. Like, people see that as, like, the goal of, like, oh, Like, I have to make this time because, like, this is what the the people who do this stuff, who are serious, do.

Guest [00:43:14]: Afternoon. And for me, it's like, no. Like, if you wanna hit that time, like, go train and hit that time. But it has nothing to do with afternoon. The people who who you think they are that are doing. And I think if a lot of people just focus more on internally afternoon, and being more internally focused and internally driven versus, like, this external thing of, like, oh, I need to go do this. I need to go get the jacket. I need to qualify for this because that's gonna make me a real runner even though you running afternoon.

Guest [00:43:45]: Makes you already a real runner. And I think for a lot of people, it's like it's not like, oh, this makes me a real runner. What they're trying to say it's like it it makes me closer to the elite athletes. So it's like the elitist mindset to it. It's like, oh, I can't be a elite athlete, But I can be elitist. I can be elitist runner. And I think for a lot of people, like, that's where the elitistism kinda comes into place of, like, afternoon. Looking down at people are like, I wrote this open letter for the back of the pack.

Guest [00:44:21]: And, like, my the first sentence was, like, for any race director who's, like, shut down races, ran out of meadows, afternoon. But now water table's, like, after you fight me, and, like, the response for elitist runners is, like, you know what you should do? You know what you should do, fat man? To lose weight and get faster, and maybe you don't have to go through that. And it's like, so you missed the whole point. You missed the whole point of all of this. The point is I paid my own green money just like you, and I should get the similar equitable experience Just like you. How about

Finn Melanson [00:45:00]: and and I'm just trying to think of like additional rationales for, you know, trying to PR, trying to To, you know, get faster and stuff like that, do you do you buy or sell the rationale that, you know, there is value in trying to PR and try to get faster? Because by doing that, You sort of unlock capacity and confidence to to become even better in other areas of life as well?

Guest [00:45:25]: Afternoon. Nah. I don't buy that. I don't buy that.

Finn Melanson [00:45:31]: How come?

Guest [00:45:33]: Afternoon. Because I I I unlocked that just running my 1st marathon. Like, I unlocked that through the hard work, the consistency. Afternoon. And I think like you don't need to necessarily PR to get that, right? I think just going through that journey of it, like if it's like, oh, I have this goal And I'm gonna train to get this goal, and I'm a go through the paces. And even if you don't hit that goal, you still should celebrate because the celebration comes That you actually applied yourself to even think of a goal and go after it. And maybe you don't make it, you still celebrate because you applied yourself throughout throughout the whole process. Afternoon.

Guest [00:46:12]: And I think a lot of people, they just focus on, like, the end goal of, like, oh, I PR ed. But it's like, what about all the hard work? What about all the sacrifices you made there? And you can do that with any goal.

Finn Melanson [00:46:26]: Do you put limits on yourself?

Guest [00:46:27]: No. I'm limitless. People put limits on me.

Finn Melanson [00:46:36]: That's that's I I agree with that. That's a good way to look at it. Alright. Last question and then I I wanna make sure we we talk a bit about the book in in ways that we can kinda, you know, activate the community here. But, I'd love for you to talk about the importance of social running and finding a community, finding your tribe, finding like minded people. Talk about how you've done that and and what you're excited about in the next few years as this era as this sorta area of the sport grows.

Guest [00:47:03]: Afternoon. Oh, fair enough. This is my this is by far my favorite thing we really talk about. So like for me, community is everything. As someone who's like ran alone afternoon for multiple years. There there has been all all this research that says like when you do something in the community, afternoon. Tough things seem easier. You can go longer.

Guest [00:47:23]: You you know, even that whole adage of, like, you wanna go fast, go along. But if you wanna go far, go together. Right? And I think that is the big thing that I was missing inside of this running industry. Afternoon. So I created the Slow Your Front Club. And it started as a virtual community. It started as a virtual community, right during the pandemic afternoon. We're 40 people.

Guest [00:47:48]: And now we have roughly 30,000 members worldwide. Wow. What I'm really excited 30,000, virtual community.

Finn Melanson [00:47:57]: You built a city.

Guest [00:47:58]: Yes. Now what I'm really excited about is, What I'm really excited about is I just launched a nonprofit charitable to the Slow Yuff and Run Club. Afternoon. So we have a 501c3. And what we're gonna do with that is take what we've done with this virtual community and now open it up to after members to apply to lunch clubs all over the nation. And my goal is to, like, really make it so that You can go anywhere and know, like, the slow f run club got you. Like, yeah, you can go to any club, but, like, the slow f run club got you. Afternoon.

Guest [00:48:41]: So like that is the goal that we have, in the next couple years, is launch these regional chapters afternoon all over the nation, potentially worldwide, and make running more inclusive. I also think that when we become a club that's a million strong, we can now have Bargaining power to go to racist brands, whoever to say like, we are the Slow You Have Funnel Club, We have this much buying power. And if you don't want to, like, help you know, if you don't wanna, help with our demands, We will go elsewhere.

Finn Melanson [00:49:25]: Why not even just create your own events at that point too?

Guest [00:49:28]: Why not? Afternoon. Why not?

Finn Melanson [00:49:31]: That figure coalition, you know? Just

Guest [00:49:33]: create a new

Finn Melanson [00:49:34]: be a world be a world builder.

Guest [00:49:35]: Hey, I'm just saying, like, But that's what we doing. They're like that's what we doing. Like, how I see it is that I am building the Marvel Universe for slow runners.

Finn Melanson [00:49:45]: Afternoon. That's awesome.

Guest [00:49:46]: We are the slow, runny Avengers. So that's what we're doing. So, like, yeah, it might eventually become where afternoon. I'm a be a race director, or I'm hiring a race director to, like, put our own events. But I think for now, like, let's start out with launching clubs all over the nation. Let's get people running consistently. Let's build this name bigger than me. And then go further afternoon, and go farther to, yeah, launching our own race series and whatever else in inside the running industry.

Finn Melanson [00:50:20]: Afternoon. I'd love for you to talk more about what the marketing around these groups looks like because earlier in the conversation, you were saying, like, you can look at, you know, The groups until now that have existed, and you'll you'll see language such as all paces are welcome, you know that that's code for 10 minutes and faster, How are you advertising these things so that people really truly know that they're going to a place where they can be accepted?

Guest [00:50:45]: I I think one of the things that we do with that is like, instead of saying all places are welcome, like, walkers afternoon. Alright, welcome. We have run walking. We have run walk pace groups. Afternoon. Like, I think the thing is just like there's not necessarily wrong with like if a run club stops at a 10 minute mile, but I think what's wrong is when You falsely advertise and say all Pacers are welcome, and they're not. So like I would rather people put, this is we go We are X Running Club, and we go from a 10 minute mile to a 5 minute mile. We serve these people.

Guest [00:51:28]: Great. Yep. I don't have to waste my time by going there, and you don't have to waste your time by seeing me you see my slow ass there. Y'all looking like y'all don't know what to do. Afternoon. But now if you do wanna host and serve these people, say it. Say it with your chest. And then actually do it and provide these services.

Finn Melanson [00:51:50]: Martinez, it's been such a pleasure to have you. We will make sure to link to the book in the show notes, As well as all of your your socials, etcetera. Before we go, is there anything you wanna say about the book in particular or any other initiatives you have going on that might interest the audience? Afternoon.

Guest [00:52:09]: The book is just what I like to say, it it comes from the heart. It's something that I wish I woulda had over 10 years ago. And now, it's out there for the next generation of runners. And if you are interested in potentially launching afternoon. You're at Slowy F Run Club chapter. Go to slowyfrunclub.com, and you can get more information there.

Finn Melanson [00:52:43]: Afternoon. Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top afternoon. Guest. I'm your host, Finn Melanson. As always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. Please consider connecting with me on Instagram at Wasatch Finn and the rest of our team at Runners Connect. Also consider supporting our show for free With a rating on the Spotify and Apple Podcast players. And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with our guests and premier access to contests and giveaways, and subscribe to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.net backslash podcast.

Finn Melanson [00:53:17]: Afternoon. Until next time, happy trading.