5x National Champion Sabrina Little: Finding Happiness Through Running

Guest [00:00:01]: Everybody's talking about sodium bicarbonate, and we're talking about ketones, and we're talking about these carbon plated shoes. But there are these special traits that also enhance your performance and perhaps even more so than whatever shoes you put on or your, like, sweat resistant T shirts. Like, these things make a big difference. Right? Like, if you have resilience and you're in the middle of a hard race and you hit the wall, I mean, I don't know how much shoes are gonna help you in that circumstance. But if you are a person who's, like, constituted with resilience, then you're probably going to come out a lot stronger. So if if only for performance reasons, we need to take our character seriously, but character does matter for much more beyond performance.

Cory Nagler [00:00:51]: My guest on today's show is an incredible athlete and also one of the most thoughtful interviews I've done. If you're not familiar with Sabrina Little, she's a 5 time national champion ultra runner with American records in the 24 hour and 200 k events. Her accomplishments go way beyond ultra running though, because she has a PhD in philosophy from Baylor, and in March released her first book, The Examined Run, Why Good People Make Better Runners. She has an incredible way of putting into words what I think the majority of runners intuitively believe, which is that the same traits that make us better as people, like perseverance, courage, and joy, also make us better runners. She describes these virtues as the carbon plated chews of the soul. I love this comparison. And I knew after reading her book that I had to discuss how practicing character building can improve your running. Sabrina gave some really great examples of how she practices different virtues with the athlete she coaches.

Cory Nagler [00:01:44]: And she helped me to answer some pretty profound questions, like how running fits into a happy life, and what it really means to be limitless as an athlete. I highly recommend you check out her book, The Examined Run, if you haven't already read it. And I'm so grateful for this amazing conversation. So let's get into it. Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget.

Cory Nagler [00:02:38]: Alright. Welcome to the show, Sabrina. I think this has to be a first, talking about philosophy on the, Run to the Top podcast.

Guest [00:02:45]: Thanks so much for having me. It's it's fun to be here.

Cory Nagler [00:02:49]: Yeah. I'm really excited to get into it, and I know this is gonna be a topic throughout the, the episode. But before we even get to that, what is the the kind of overlap between philosophy and and running or athletics, and what got you even thinking about that?

Guest [00:03:04]: Yeah. It's a good question. I mean, I've always been an academic, and I've seen kind of, like, a fruitful marriage between being able to run and having the space, to think there and then that connection to my academic work. It's always been like a fruitful space of just being away from distraction and working through whatever happened to be thinking about at the moment. And so early on when I was doing philosophy, I always, like, took advantage of that running space to work through ideas from papers and things like that. In graduate school, I started to become more serious about questions of virtue development. And what that means is a virtue is it just means excellence. Right? So how do we become more excellent people? How do we develop our characters? And the literature often talks about practice based approaches.

Guest [00:03:57]: And so how do you become more excellent? You do the excellent thing repeatedly until it defines you in a stable way. And I always just thought that it was exactly what I was doing in my training. I was trying to become more excellent, And so I was doing these repeated activities with intentionality, thinking about, you know, my my purposes, thinking about my why, and then just, like, trying to be more excellent, trying to manage my emotions and things that are very much part of a morally good life. They're part of being excellent. They're part of virtue. And I started to see some sort of, like the more I thought about virtue development in my running, there was just a lot of fruitful overlap. Like, I started to see the way in which certain character deficiencies were showing up in my running. So maybe I was impatient in races, and I would start off too quickly and not meet out my energy, very efficiently.

Guest [00:04:56]: And so I had to work on that character defect. I had to grow more excellent in that respect to grow as an athlete. I had to work on my character. I had to do a better job of staying in place, right, instead of just having my attention flit off wherever or become distractible. Like, I had to stay where I was then in the moment and be present and really think meaningfully about the work that I was doing, manage my effort well and so forth. And so, yeah, I've I've seen it as fruitful, and I think some of the bigger questions that virtue ethics has a tradition of discussing, like, what is a good life? Like, what does it mean to flourish? Where do our daily activities fit in? Or what is good suffering? And when does it cross a line? Like, those kinds of big human questions that we've been asking for generations. They're part of virtue theory, and they're part of our practice as runners.

Cory Nagler [00:05:56]: Sabrina, you've devoted a lot of your research to this development of good moral trades, but I think some of what you described, especially the impatience at the beginning of racism going out too fast is something a lot of people will relate to. Give it to me straight. Can I fix that without getting a PhD in philosophy?

Guest [00:06:13]: Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, the only way like, how do you improve your character? There's it takes the guesswork out. Right? Because you just do the good thing until it defines you. Right? And so Aristotle says, like, men become builders by building. Right? Like, how do you learn how to build? You just build. And at first, you build poorly, and you get better at building over time.

Guest [00:06:38]: And you do the same thing with your virtues. And so maybe in the beginning, you'll mess up a lot as you try to be patient, but you just do it again and again. And until it becomes, like, your response and and it's no longer forced. It's just who you are.

Cory Nagler [00:06:55]: Yeah. I I really appreciated that in in your book, that kind of description of it. You're not fighting against it kinda thing. I can't remember the exact verbiage, but, you know, working it towards building it as a habit to where it becomes natural, almost. And I I think you could spend so much time talking about these things. But just first, I do wanna take a a step back and would would love to just kind of talk a little bit more about how you you got into researching those pieces. You you talked about how you started that, but it sounds like maybe the athletic piece came first. And, of course, you're quite accomplished with your running too.

Cory Nagler [00:07:27]: So maybe you wanna tell us a little bit about, how you got into both running and philosophy before the 2 intersected?

Guest [00:07:34]: Yeah. Well, thanks. I have always, I guess, self identified as a runner. I grew up kind of running and playing other sports. I played soccer and basketball, volleyball, and so forth. But like the thing that I was good at in those sports was always the running and coaches always told me that, like, you've made this select team in soccer, but it's because you're faster than everyone else. It's not because of like superior ball handling skills or anything. So I kind of had a chip on my shoulder about it, but also I knew that eventually my place was gonna be in running.

Guest [00:08:07]: And in middle school and high school, I started to spend more seasons running until by senior year, I was running 3 seasons out of the year and, went to the College of William and Mary to run cross country and track and field. I was really excited about it. It turned out, like, when I got to college, the training wasn't a great fit, and so it was like a very high intensity program. And I was used to which would be natural to an ultra runner. Like, I did higher mileage, but kind of lower intensity, and it was often on soft surfaces. I'm from Appalachian Trail area of, Northern New Jersey. And so when I got there, I was just consistently battling injuries. And so I would step back from the team.

Guest [00:08:54]: I would rebuild my mileage, get healthy, enjoy running again, and then return and get injured. So I was in that pattern for about a year and a half on the team. After my freshman year of college, my mom was in remission from cancer, and so I like grand gesture. So I ran a 100 miles as a fundraiser for the a cancer coalition just to raise awareness. And it was in the newspaper, and people were saying, like, this was one of the fastest 100 mile times in the country this year. And I just thought, other people do this. This is a sport. And so I got very curious.

Guest [00:09:34]: And so in those times when I was stepping away from the track and field team, I was stepping into, the trail and ultra scene, and, I was really lucky to be in Virginia where there's a very active, lively, hospitable group of runners that just welcomed me in. And so sometimes I would go to their long runs on weekends in the mountains and see trails I had never seen before, and I would, be motivated to enter races. And so I kind of fell into it then. I had the support of a couple different companies kind of on and off and have more or less run professionally since just after college.

Cory Nagler [00:10:20]: Yeah. Really interesting. And, obviously, the amount of success you had after that, is incredible considering it it sounds like you had done that primarily just as a fundraiser. So, pretty cool way to start with a 100 miles because I think a lot of people start with a a marathon, but that's really taken it to the extreme.

Guest [00:10:38]: Yeah. Well, the ignorance is bliss because I did not know how it was gonna feel, and I started out way too quickly. So the ending part was, like, more painful than it probably had to be, but it was just kind of like a curiosity pursuit. Like, can I run a 100 miles? Because your imagination goes there, but can you take your body there? So, yeah, just like a fun memory and a cool thing I got to do with my mom, and then it opened up a lot of doors.

Cory Nagler [00:11:11]: Yeah. No kidding. And so with with your latest book, The Examined Run, for me, personally, as I was going through it, I I almost think of it as, like, my kind of handy book as to where does running fit into to a good life, or or how do you use running to bring you joy? But I'm curious. What what was your main goal in trying to to write this for other runners or or philosophers or whoever you intended the target audience as?

Guest [00:11:35]: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So first of all, like, I just think that if you're not looking at character when you're doing training, you might be forming yourself in the wrong ways. And so I, you know, am worried about that. I'm worried about that in my own life, and I just wanted to, like, to make that accessible to the running community. Right? So if in your relationships with other runners, you're practicing envy, you have this unhappy self assertion, and you're making every competition about you and, can't celebrate others. Like, if you're practicing that and you're running, you'll probably have that carry over into the rest of your life.

Guest [00:12:14]: If you're practicing imprudence or practicing patience, impatience, like, again, these things may cross over. I mean, we talk a lot about the formative role of not just running, but sports in general and how it can shape us and form our character. It's often a reason people supply for why they play sports in the first place, but I'm just not convinced that all the ways that sports form us are good. And so if we wanna look at the good, we also have to ask about the bad too. And so part of it was I wanted people to become aware of it. But then part of it was I wanted people to think about, running outside of this sort of presentist way in which we're inclined to think about it. Right? Like, if you're in a competitive season, you might be thinking about this race and be willing to compromise things in your life for the sake of this performance and riding that edge and getting the most out of yourself. And I wanted to zoom out and think about those consequences.

Guest [00:13:13]: What are the lines that you're stepping over? What does it mean in the grand scheme of a rich life? Do you really wanna be making those compromises? Just kind of raising those questions about what is what is a good life? Where does running fit in?

Cory Nagler [00:13:28]: Yeah. Of course. And I I think for, all of us who are not professionals and devoting our entire life to running, of course, you're balancing that with other things. So what are the ways that the virtues you talk about in this book or virtue building can actually be used to enhance performance, but also in ways maybe that don't compromise on those other things that are important to us?

Guest [00:13:50]: Yeah. I I mean, so virtues are right. So they're constitutive features of a good life. So when you think of, like, what does it mean to flourish or what does it mean to thrive as a human being? Having these traits, things like honesty, things like integrity, patience, prudence, courage, these traits are going to help you live a flourishing life because they make you a more excellent instance of your kind as a human. And so if they're developed in sports, I wanna be playing sports. Right? Like, I want the opportunity to be able to become more excellent in respects that are going to make my life fuller and richer and help me to be a better member of the community, a better member of my family, and so forth. And what's interesting about a lot of the these virtues that we've named, I mean, some additional ones are like joy, humor. They actually, are conducive to performing really well.

Guest [00:14:56]: And so right? For example, like, if you have a humor about yourself, this sort of humility and ability to laugh at yourself. The virtue of humility is called blithe sorry. The the virtue of humor is called blithe humility, and it's just like lightness about yourself. And if you have this, right, it's a good feature of a life. Right? It makes you able to be teachable and things like that, but it also makes you a better performer when things go awry in the middle of your race. So you're caught in a thunderstorm. You could despair, and yet you have this sort of despair resistance because you're able to laugh at yourself in your condition, or joy too. Like, joy is kind of like a buoy.

Guest [00:15:43]: If you push it down, it pops right back up. Right? It's not going to sink. It's it has despair resistance. And so if you have these kinds of traits, they are they are traits that are going to help you perform well. Right? And also, they're gonna be not compromises in your life. Right? They're gonna make you, on balance, a better friend, on balance, a better citizen. And so that's a really cool feature of running, just that there are so many traits like this that are amenable to your flourishing in a broader sense beyond whatever you're accomplishing in your sneakers.

Cory Nagler [00:16:17]: Yeah. I love the comparison or or analogy to a a buoy or spring in in part because in your book, you compare virtues as being the carbon plate of the soul. And I like that imagery of it being almost like a a spring or something to rely on when you're when you're feeling tired or or things are rough.

Guest [00:16:32]: Yeah. It's funny. I mean, we talk we take seriously so many possible means of improving our performances. Like, everybody's talking about sodium bicarbonate, and we're talking about ketones, and we're talking about these carbon plated shoes. But there are these special traits that also enhance your performance and perhaps even more so than whatever shoes you put on or your, like, sweat resistant t shirts. Like, these things make a big difference. Right? Like, if you have resilience and you're in the middle of a hard race and you hit the wall, I mean, I don't know how much shoes are gonna help you in that circumstance. But if you are a person who's, like, constituted with resilience, then you're probably going to come out a lot stronger.

Guest [00:17:19]: So if if only for performance reasons, we need to take our character seriously, but character does matter for much more beyond performance.

Cory Nagler [00:17:30]: Yeah. I think people do like that shortcut, and there's also a lot more marketing dollars behind carbon plated chews or or ketones than there are going into building, good virtues.

Guest [00:17:39]: Yeah. We need big virtue to get behind it and start marketing. We need commercials and banners and things. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:17:47]: We we have open ad spots if anyone at Big Vertu is listening.

Guest [00:17:51]: Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:17:52]: So is it as simple as just going out and running to build these habits and telling yourself that you wanna build them, or is there anything specific you can do if you have, say, certain virtues in mind that you know are performance enhancing?

Guest [00:18:04]: Yeah. That's a good question. Because, oftentimes, there's this rhetoric in the sport where people just say, do hard things. Yeah. Do hard things. And then you're, like, whatever, transformed or something like that. But it's not just doing hard things. It's, like, doing hard things.

Guest [00:18:19]: It's doing certain hard things and doing them for the right reasons and the right ways and so forth. So right. I mean, part of it comes from, like, knowing your natural dispositions and then correcting toward virtue. So So an example I give in the book is courage. Right? So I was trying to help my runners, my middle school and high school runners who I was coaching. I was trying to help them grow in courage, but some of them were reckless already. Right? Like, they would start races or they would start workouts and just be willing to completely set themselves on fire, going much too hard, taking risks that were certainly not worth it, and then imploding before the end of runs. And for them, if I said, you know, be more courageous, like, I don't want them to continue along that path.

Guest [00:19:12]: Like, I want to draw them back in the other direction. Right? So you correct for their natural warp. And there's this image that Aristotle uses of, like, warped wood. Right? We're all warped in manifold ways. Like, some of us are warped in one direction, some are warped in the other. And the way that a, someone who works with lumber corrects warps in wood is they pull it back in the opposite direction. And so know the direction of your warp. If you are the person who is reckless, pull yourself in the direction of being a little bit more conservative in the face of risk, and then you draw closer to the virtue.

Guest [00:19:49]: You practice suitable fear regarding those risks. Whereas, you know, other athletes I was coaching, they would just back away from anything that was threatening at all. Right? And so they'd start workouts very conservatively. And if they felt the least bit of discomfort, they'd pull back again. And so for them, I would give them a prescription that would be like, I want you to start these first two harder, and when it gets uncomfortable, try to stay there as long as you can. And so it's knowing yourself and then correcting in that direction. Oftentimes, I would give them a virtual goal to practice alongside of the workout. Right? So it could be practice patience or something at the beginning of the race, meaning this is your speed limit.

Guest [00:20:38]: You can't go faster, and then practice, you know, increasing the pace or something like that. But it but it's not one prescription for everybody. There's that little bit of self examination to figure out where you are. And if you can't figure out where you are, ask a friend. Friends love telling you your defects. They'll be able to identify where you're falling short.

Cory Nagler [00:21:01]: That was where I was gonna go next, especially because I know you have coaching experience. I'd imagine it's a lot easier to tell an athlete, hey. You need to slow it down a little at the start, or maybe you need to take in more gels versus telling them, hey. You really lack courage, or you're super intransigent.

Guest [00:21:16]: Yeah. Yeah. It is, Yeah. It's interesting. Like, so the school that I worked at, they did virtue education in the school, and so the students had a really good moral vocabulary. So if I said things like you are acting, you know, you need more fortitude, they would know what that meant. Like, you you're being imprudent, things like that. But, yeah, it is a lot is it may be may be a lot easier to say things like, this is the pace I need you to hit, than to include those other things.

Guest [00:21:50]: But once you get over the, I'm giving you a character prescription alongside your workout prescription, it becomes, like, more natural. And the thing is, like, even if you don't address it, they are practicing something. Right? So the ones who are reckless, what are they doing? They are reinforcing a disposition to ignore risks to their peril. Right? And so just redirecting them, giving them a vocabulary to think about it, to see themselves more clearly is like it's a good way to practice the virtue, but also to better understand yourself

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Cory Nagler [00:25:24]: Is that something which is easy to translate, or do you find that you have to spell that out a little bit for the athletes you work with?

Guest [00:25:31]: Yeah. I mean, sometimes I wouldn't even likes right. So did I spell it out? Did I have to translate? I mean, sometimes I would just talk about, like, managing fear or something like that, or what is the source of the fear? Like, we would have conversations about it. And to be honest, it does like it's like a really good fit for running just because we spend so much time in our heads and, like, being supplied with some sort of understanding of what's going on internally. I'm always grasping for, you know, explanations of my experiences when I'm going through them too. Like, what is happening right now? When you're running, your emotions shout at you. And sometimes they're not saying things that are honest. They're saying, like, this is a sinking ship when you are actually okay.

Guest [00:26:24]: So sometimes, like, I don't know. It can be helpful to just be the voice in another's ear and equip them with things. That said, I mean, there's this kind of explicit instruction. Right? So telling them, yeah, we're working on courage, and we're working on VO 2 max or whatever we're doing, hill repeats or something. There's that. But the thing that probably made the most difference as a coach was just role modeling. Right? They knew what I cared about. They knew what I was paying attention to, what I valued.

Guest [00:26:58]: They saw what I praised, and your attention to, right, and what I got excited about. And so if at the end of a workout, I only talked about their splits or if at a race, I only looked at placement, well, they would know that this is actually what's important to her. And so I had to model well ordered gloves. Right? And that involves, like, checking yourself and making sure that you are modeling the right things. And one example in the book is, like, this one time, there's there's this rule. I don't know how widely this rule occurs throughout the country and in cross country, But there was an anti good samaritan rule where if you help the other athlete an athlete from another team across the line, you're both disqualified. And it was the state championships, and my number 2 runner helped another runner across the line. And it was just like she saw someone who needed her help, and so she just stopped 30 meters before the line and was helping this girl across the line.

Guest [00:28:04]: And the girl was, like, very appreciative of it too. And I just had to check my heart because I knew with her disqualification and that we were no longer in podium contention, and we would have finished really well that year. And so registered that disappointment with the team, like, yeah, we didn't accomplish what we set out to do, but we also demonstrated something that's more important, which is, like, well ordered gloves. Right? Caring for your competitor and instead of just seeing as as an opportunity to exceed that person and get to the finish line first.

Cory Nagler [00:28:41]: Yeah. I'd imagine that couldn't have been easier, especially knowing there's there's a lot of competition and pressure and funding on the line, and Big Vertu is probably not the one who's funding these needs.

Guest [00:28:52]: Yeah. But the good thing about being a high school or middle school coach is there's no money on anything. It's like a very underpaid position, and you're not incentivized in terms of of anything. So nothing was lost except for we didn't get a trophy, and, they didn't get, like, to see the fruits of their performances celebrated in that way. But, yeah, I mean, I learned something through that process. I learned that I really did care about the performance probably in an outsized way, and we all came away, I don't know, I guess, like, refined by the experience. It's not like our hard work didn't matter. Right? It just didn't show up that day in terms of our positioning.

Cory Nagler [00:29:38]: Yeah. I I apologize. I missed that that was at the, the high school level. But you you talked about role models, and I think the the language you use in your book is exemplars or someone to look up to. But you also talk about how it's important with your exemplars to know what are the characteristics that you actually want to mimic rather than trying to mimic anything about them. So when you're working with your athletes, how do you ensure both that you're a good exemplar, but also that they're taking away the characteristics that are going to help them form those good virtues that are gonna set them up in life?

Guest [00:30:08]: Yeah. That's a good question. And with regard to, like, my own role model, I got I'm not pointing out things in myself. Like, I'm just counting on the fact that we are imitative people, and they're probably going to, you know, notice what I'm paying attention to. I mean, a lot of times, middle schoolers and high schoolers are people pleasers in that respect. Like, they want their coaches to say good job. Right? And to notice the things that they've done well. Yeah.

Guest [00:30:46]: So I do talk about that in the book that sometimes in the face of our role models, it can really be helpful to be able to name what it is that's excellent in that person. And the reason for that is that especially as we grow older, we become a little bit less imitative, and so we tend to admire someone in this sort of inner way. Right? So I will see someone in the Olympics do something outstanding, and it'll inspire me. It'll fill my heart, and I'll think, wow, that's the coolest thing. That person's amazing. And then I'll turn my TV on and then go about my life unchanged. Right? And so in those cases, I should be taking the moment to reflect on what exactly was excellent about that, and how can I be likewise excellent? Right? So when I see something exceptional on display, there is something that I can practice putting on myself, and it's an opportunity for me to grow more excellent in that respect. So I I my my intention in talking about naming excellences is really for the person who is less who's just not moved, right, in the same way, by exemplars.

Guest [00:32:04]: But I wouldn't advise, people who are serving as exemplars to be like, look at me. I'm doing x, y, or z or anything like that.

Cory Nagler [00:32:14]: Sir certainly not. I was almost thinking, the reverse, like, pointing out if there's certain characteristics not to mimic. Like, I I know for my myself, probably not unique in a lot of runners, I can be stubborn at times, and I think probably not something that I'd want others to mimic.

Guest [00:32:28]: Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. That can that can be good too. Yeah. I mean right. And my my students knew that. Right? Like, it was I mean, I was training them, but I was also trying to grow myself as an athlete.

Guest [00:32:42]: I was training professionally at the time. I was trying to grow my character and still trying to improve my character and refine myself and edify myself in certain ways. And so it wasn't something that I was tasking them to do. It was something that we were doing together. Right? We were all working on our courage and figuring out what that meant concerning how we entered risk. We were all working on being more patient racers, which, by the way, I'm still very much working on. Like, I always start too fast. It's it's an ongoing project.

Cory Nagler [00:33:15]: Do you find that you yourself get inspired by your athletes or able to take any any important lessons away from working with them?

Guest [00:33:23]: Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, just like seeing their fruitful relationships, the way they work together and edify each other and celebrate each other's successes, things like that, really, for me, like, they show me an excellent way of being a competitor. So that was certainly the case. When I would see them working sincerely on themselves, like, working on their patients or working on something like that, it feels like a shared endeavor. And so, yeah, being part of a community that takes seriously character, it doesn't matter if they're middle school, high school. Like, we're all, you know, on that same on the same human journey. And so, yeah, I I definitely was motivated by them.

Cory Nagler [00:34:10]: Yeah. And I'd love to know as well in if you have any sort of mantras or self talk that goes on in part because you're you're so thoughtful in terms of how you approach running and in character building. So is is there anything specific you try to tell yourself while you run or or that you suggest your athletes do?

Guest [00:34:29]: Well, first of all, thank you. So the one thing that I used to say to myself all the time, especially during long races, was choose joy. In fact, during one of the national championships, one of my athletes showed up on the course with this huge sign that said choose joy. Like, just lean into joy. Right? Don't don't despair. Just, choose joy. And and the reason I like joy is that it's just kind of, like, it's not dependent on your circumstances. It has this kind of internal fixity on your purpose.

Guest [00:35:06]: And so in being joyful, you're reminding yourself of what you're connected to. Right? And joy is described not as an independent virtue, but as a consequence of love. And so remembering what do I love and such that my joy can follow. It's not about, like, I'm in the rain right now. It's not about this course is really hard. It's about, like, my internal state and remembering that. Right? So that has been big for me, choose joy. But other than that, I mean, mostly, like, in my low moments and races, I'm reminding myself to interrogate my emotions and to, like, not accept, like, you know, I say, oh, I'm lonely.

Guest [00:35:48]: Well, I remind myself, like, yeah, but you are an academic. You would be alone if you were not on this trail. Like, that's not that's really a lateral move. Or, I feel sad. Most of the time, if you feel sad, it means you need a snack. And so just, like, reading your emotions, not accepting them as final deliverances or as, like, this is the end of my day, just, like, taking the information and then moving forward.

Cory Nagler [00:36:18]: This was a very wholesome quote that I think a lot of runners might need to hear that, if you're feeling sad on the run, you probably just need a snack.

Guest [00:36:26]: Yeah. And not just on the run, in regular life too. Yep.

Cory Nagler [00:36:31]: Yeah. You're not wrong. For for your motto, choose joy, it it has a nice ring to it, but, of course, that can be easier said than done. I think a lot of us, if you've been running long enough, you find there's time for you getting to rot or you're just not enjoying it as much. Aside from telling it to yourself, are there other ways that runners can choose joy and incorporate that into their running in life?

Guest [00:36:53]: Yeah. I think well, I mean, part of it is, like, follows from that structure of the virtue, right, as connected to your internal purpose. Just become very clear about what it is. Become very clear about what it is that you love. Right? Because that is going to sustain your joy if you are feeding into the things that you love. I mean, sad feelings are part of a rich life, and so I don't think they're a problem necessarily in running. I don't think they're a problem necessarily in life. Like, if you ask people, what gives them the most meaning in their lives, like, what things have most shaped them, what have been most important, what have made them the way they are.

Guest [00:37:36]: They'll usually name things like climbing mountains or massive work projects that they didn't think they could do and they overcame, or parenting, which, like, often doesn't involve a lot of smiley faces and yet are, like, very fulfilling rich parts of your life. And so I would just say, like, don't think there's necessarily a problem if you don't always feel happy. Right? Like, don't think there's an issue with that. That's just part of the difficulty of running and the part of the difficulty of life and just maintain focus on where you're going, what you're connected to, and what your purpose is.

Cory Nagler [00:38:18]: And where does that purpose fit for you? I'd love to know about what you think the good life means and where running fits into that.

Guest [00:38:27]: Yeah. I mean, so in the book, I'm describing it in a broadly Aristotelian way, and the way that Aristotle described flourishing is just this sort of excellent state of the human living in accordance with its highest nature. Right? And so it's this rich sense of this person who is excellent in a number of ways and contributes well to the community and contemplates and values a range of goods and so forth. And so that's the general way that I describe it in the book, and I do so mostly because I think it captures, like, it's in general, it captures something that is descriptively true about a good life, which is that, if we are excellent, then it's a better life on balance than a life that's not excellent. And the example is this, like, so one virtue is temperance. And what is temperance? It's being it's having, like, well ordered passions and not being ruled by your desires. And you can imagine someone who is intemperate. Right? So completely ruled by their desires, be it, like, they're always clicking on their phone or they just, like, have an insatiable appetite for any number of things, be it video games or sweets or something, they cease to be able to self govern in that way.

Guest [00:39:49]: Right? And so it's a higher life to be able to be in command of your passion and command of your emotions. Right? Or if you think of a person who is angry all the time, imagine like a toddler who can't control their anger. They're ruled by their anger. Right? And that's not a flourishing way to live. They need to have, like, command of themselves, in a certain sense. And so that's the way that I often offer when I'm speaking to people broadly. For me, personally, my sense of, like, flourishing and purpose is very much connected to, like, theistic commitments, like, like Christian faith. And so I'm always thinking about, like, honoring God, and how can I do that through running? And so in my low moments, that's something that sustains me.

Guest [00:40:40]: But I know for other friends, it could be, like, a strong sense of community, like, really feeling like your family loves you, and you wanna honor them and honor the investments they've made in you. And, like, that's the source of of your strength when when you feel weak. You just have to know what it is. Right? So is it this general flourishing? Is it the enlightenment? Right? If you're a rationalist, some sort of, like, pure reason. Is it something theistic? Is it something community wise? You just have to be able to name it so that you have something there to focus on when you're feeling weak.

Cory Nagler [00:41:18]: Yeah. That that's really good thought to to have, especially for my own running to to be able to think about that that why for your running. Recently, there's been such a massive boom during the pandemic, and I'd be interested if you have thoughts on what might be tied to that or or where runners are attributing running as falling into their own conception of the good life. Because I I have to think that there's not suddenly a boom in people who are, you know, thinking, you know, in terms of religion or who are thinking in terms of, some of the the other more, virtue seeking, you know, mindsets.

Guest [00:41:55]: Yeah. I think right. So following the pandemic, certainly a running boom. I think a lot of it is just gyms were closed or people were uncomfortable going to gyms. You really only need sneakers and a pair of athletic clothes, right, to get started. And so it's just this activity. It gets you outdoors. It kind of keeps you healthy.

Guest [00:42:16]: It can be part of a well ordered life, and I think people like that. They like the consistency of the routine, the ability to just rise at the same time every day and go and be outside. It's just like, it's an inherently enjoyable activity. And if you can get past the beginning part where it's uncomfortable and you feel out of shape and, it's so bad. Right? Eventually, it becomes so good. Like, the habit feels good. The activity in itself, it feels delightful. And so I think, yeah, like, the closing of gyms, the time, you know, fewer people were commuting because they were staying home.

Guest [00:42:56]: It created this opportunity for all the people who may have thought, oh, I wanna try this running thing to actually get out there and establish the habit. So, yeah, it's really cool. I'm like I know people these days are very sad about how many, people have applied to the Boston Marathon and not gotten in, and the numbers are just absurd. There are so many people running so fast and so forth. But I think it is so cool that so many people are getting to experience the sport, the community, and getting to just refine themselves through trying really hard in at something.

Cory Nagler [00:43:37]: I agree 100%, and I think there's a very biased group of people listening who will agree that running is inherently enjoyable. But I think in the broader population, we might be in the minority there.

Guest [00:43:46]: Oh, well, they if they knew, they would know. Yeah. You guys just need to try it. It's so fun.

Cory Nagler [00:43:54]: Yeah. I'd like to think that you're right. So you're you're totally right with the, the Boston Marathon. It's becoming more and more competitive, and that's something we've seen at all levels. It's it's incredible that we've had world records broken. We've had more and more depth in fields, people running under, you know, 210 on the men's side, 220 on the women's side at the elite level, but then also recreational runners' average time's getting a lot quicker. And it I I think it's fantastic for the sport. But, curiously, you actually talk about how you don't believe in limitlessness, as a concept in running being a good thing that furthers the sport.

Cory Nagler [00:44:31]: And I'd love to read a quote you wrote, and hear your thoughts on it to untack it a little because I think this is really interesting. So I'm just gonna flip through here a little. This is one of my favorite quotes. You said, usually when I am unable to train at the level I want to, it is not my body that limits me. Rather the responsibilities I have to my family and to my students limit me. These are happy humanizing limits. My life is richer because of them. On these grounds, when we make claims about being limitless in our athletic pursuits, these claims ignore the ties that bind us, whether or not we intend for this to be the case, when we are all in on our athletic performances, not willing to put a cap on our potential.

Cory Nagler [00:45:12]: Our families and communities are the first limit we step over. So hearing that quote, why is it that you feel that limitlessness in running sort of caps us in other areas?

Guest [00:45:25]: Yeah. Right. So I think oftentimes when we say we wanna be limitless, right, or we buy into that rhetoric or whatever shoe company is using that line, like, repeatedly, it often happens, is just this idea that the the limits they have in mind are probably the physical ones. Right? So or the imaginative ones. Right? Like, we might think, oh, I will never break an 18 minute 5 k or something. And you put that limit up. It's like a mental barrier, and then you might never see your capacity. Whereas if you entertain the possibility, like, even a small nugget of a chance that you could do it, maybe you can.

Guest [00:46:06]: Right? And you would blow through that barrier. And so oftentimes when people say be limitless, I think that that is what they mean, but there are other kinds of limits in our lives. Right? There are the people in our lives, who I say, like, we are probably inclined to step over 1st. Right? If you, you know, promise to be home at a certain time, and then your your run is going well. And so you, you know, you just compromise things a little bit at home or, like, you're not invested in a friend as much as you should be who's who's struggling, and it's because you have been doing long runs and you are so tired. Right? Like, you are inclined to step over those limits and also moral limits. Right? Oftentimes, people are willing to do any number of things that they ought not do, just in order to get a performance benefit. Right? So we just saw the Olympics, and after the Olympics roll out all the people who are now being sanctioned for, the drugs that they took in order to perform at the level that they did.

Guest [00:47:11]: And so just in asking the question, I think we should take seriously the other limits in our lives and figure out what exactly it is that we're stepping over because it's not just our bodies. Right? It's also all of these other things, like the broader context of our lives. Can we live sustainably within them? Can we honor them? Can we be happy about them instead of just begrudging the fact that other people in our lives need us or want us around, or there are certain things that we can't do. And so, yeah, that's the point of the section.

Cory Nagler [00:47:45]: And I think to call out maybe the elephant in the room or the athlete who's become most synonymous with limitlessness was Elyakipchoge, of course, who talks about how humans have no limits. And I think, you know, he's obviously remarkable as an athlete and a lot look up to him. Do you think that maybe it's a little misguided in this particular approach, or or is there something else to take away from this? Does he not actually mean that kind of all in approach that you're getting at?

Guest [00:48:11]: Yeah. I think he's just referring to these kinds of imaginative fiscal limits. Right? And so we had this idea that the 2 hour marathon barrier, that's it for us. Like, you know, the human just can't proceed past it. And he wanted to show, no, we can. Right? Because right. So an example is Roger Bannister. Once he broke, the 4 minute mile, so many people realize we can do that too.

Guest [00:48:40]: And now high schoolers do it all the time. Right? And so thinking something is a firm barrier does something to us where we just kind of start to limit ourselves. And so it's very clear that in the Elliot Kipchoge case, he's talking about those sort of self imposed limits. I mean, if you look at right. I'm thinking of how he finished the the marathon at the Olympics. Right? He was giving all the people his clothes as, like, his race went awry, and he just was, like, honoring the people around him. And so and, like, from everything we read, he's very invested in his community. From everything we can tell, he trains above reproach.

Guest [00:49:22]: And so I don't think it's this sort of single-minded, win whatever the cost idea that can follow from limitlessness. I think it's important for everyday runners to self examine about what kinds of limits we're stepping over. But in the Kipchoge case, I think he's a great exemplar of someone who seems to be just excellent in that respect.

Cory Nagler [00:49:48]: Yeah. And you're totally right with Roger Bannister that it's become common at the high school level. I think if high school athletes start running a a sub two hour marathon, I may I may just give up entirely on looking at age group rankings.

Guest [00:49:59]: Yeah. Same. Same.

Cory Nagler [00:50:03]: So as we try to grow the sport or get more people involved, obviously, we mentioned the pandemic's played a huge role in in that running boom. But what what's the right way to do it or the right mentality, I guess? Because if if it's not limitlessness, presumably, it's not all about performance. So how do we get people more invested in running and and more interested in elite running without the center of attention being all about trying to push boundaries?

Guest [00:50:29]: Yeah. Good question. I think part of it is telling a broader array of stories. Right? A number of excellent ways of being in the sport. And I think we're doing that a lot better now. Like, it used to be that just the peak of the sport, like, the top few athletes would get press, and then nobody else did. And now it seems like we've democratized our running media a bit more and more stories are told, which I think is so cool because it gives you a vision of a number of excellent ways that you can be in the sport, and not all excellent ways are just this narrowly focused on performance. I think something also, is just like to be hospitable as a running community.

Guest [00:51:17]: I think sometimes you'll show up to a running club, and they're going this pace, and that's the pace they're going. Right? And if you can be hospitable in the sense that you're willing to sometimes compromise your case to be a friend to the new runner and help them get motivated or situated or something like that. It's like, the act that the runner doesn't wanna do. Right? Like, you you never wanna slow down. Right? But, like, having that hospitable way, like, that kind of approach will get get people in, make them feel like they're they're part of it. And so that's a way of saying it's not just about being fast. That's not all that we're doing here. And then, yeah, I think the storytelling is huge.

Cory Nagler [00:52:02]: Yeah. I don't know who needs to hear this, but if you run a 10 minute mile pace on your easy runs, it's not gonna take away from your next race.

Guest [00:52:09]: Yeah. For sure. Yep.

Cory Nagler [00:52:11]: We, we had one guest on the show, Lauren, who developed a tool to help find running clubs. And one of the things she talked about running clubs doing is talking about party pace where, essentially, they don't define a specific pace, and they'll go out whatever the crowd wants to go to. And I love that concept because it feels very inclusive.

Guest [00:52:28]: Yeah. I love it. Yeah. It's so fun.

Cory Nagler [00:52:32]: Yeah. So okay. We we've established that there is ways to build this board in a way that's inclusive and inhospitable and and not totally focused on pushing the limits. But, of course, that's still something that that, you know, gets eyeballs on TVs and gets people excited. And I'd be curious about your thoughts on one really controversial side of this, which is doping. Because you talk a lot in your book about how that's something to be avoided in particular because there's so many moral vices that go into that, and it runs contrary, to to the building of of moral virtue. But one one program that's come under RISE is the enhanced games. And for those who aren't familiar, the concept behind it is a sort of Olympic like competition, but where all the athletes are permitted to dope and the prize money is big to try to see how can we get the best performance as possible.

Cory Nagler [00:53:28]: So I gather based on your writing that probably even in a scenario where everyone's allowed to cheat, it wouldn't necessarily align with your own personal ethics. So why do you think that is, and and why might something like that not be good for running as a sport?

Guest [00:53:43]: Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, I do talk about cheating in the book, and in the book, I say, like, well, what does it do? It undermines the competition. Right? It undermines the work that everyone else is doing and makes it false under false pretenses. Right? Because cheating only works against a backdrop of other people not cheating, and so you're getting an advantage over them. Yeah. So in the enhanced games context, right, there are 2 big worries that I have.

Guest [00:54:13]: Right? And they kind of align with, the World Anti Doping Association has, 3 criteria for what counts as doping. So the first one is enhances performance. Right? So if it meets that, you know, it's doping. But there are 2 others. And one is it's unhealthy for the athletes. And so in terms of long term health, like, I can't imagine abiding a situation in which people are taking drugs willy nilly or doing whatever kind of therapies, using their bodies as a means to some arbitrary end. I think that is chaotic and, not responsible, like, in terms of public health advocating that sort of thing because you don't know the long term impacts. You don't know what's gonna happen.

Guest [00:55:01]: And even if people are complicit in it, I don't think that they should be permitted the opportunity to do that to themselves. So there's a health concern. And then the bigger, fuzzier one is just this what's called the spirit of sport. And spirit of sport is kind of like the aesthetic of a sport. It is like the kindergarten spirit of the activity. So what is the spirit of the sport for running? It's this kind of like, you can imagine kids running across a playground together, that kind of simplicity of of the activity, assuming that everyone's on relatively equal grounds, assuming that, you know, it's just like you're seeing what is an excellence of nature on display. Right? And that's not what you're seeing in the enhanced games. You are testing something in a race, but it is not running.

Guest [00:55:53]: Right? Like, because anything goes, and it would be the same thing as, like, people, you know, putting on roller blades or something. Well, that's not a running race anymore, and I think the same thing kind of applies. It's like a distortion of the activity. You have different things kind of mediating the effort such that you're not actually running anymore. You're not measuring running, in any meaningful way. And so it's always like having an eye on, well, what is the spirit of the activity? What is the essence of the thing? The essence of the thing is looking at whose nature. Right? Like, it's about it's about excellences of human nature. It's about striving together, pure competition.

Guest [00:56:39]: It's not about, like, whose drugs which collection of drugs outperforms another collection of drugs. I think you you really move away. You destroy the activity. It's it's not running anymore. It's something else.

Cory Nagler [00:56:54]: Yeah. I tend to agree with you. It certainly undermines the integrity of the sport to to be doping in my opinion. But just to play devil's advocate, I think one of the greatest transformation performances has been the carbon plated shoes. It's sort of technological doping, if you will. When it when it comes down to those fundamentals of what makes running running, why is it that that technology piece stands differently than what you see happening with the enhanced games?

Guest [00:57:22]: Yeah. Well, I mean right. So it's a good question. And I actually I I recently wrote a piece against performance, against those carbon plated shoes on those grounds, as, like, violating spirit of sport, because I think it could be the case that right. So we've rewritten all our laws. And so now everyone consents to the fact that if you participate in a distance running event or sprinting or whatever, you can use those shoes. Right? And we have stack height limitations and so forth. But I don't think that consent is enough to save the sport because we know that those shoes, first of all, they're an instance of privilege, so not all people have access to them.

Guest [00:58:09]: Right? So certain people are going to be at a disadvantage, but, 2, they impact people's running in such different ways. Like, some people are very low responders, and some people are high responders. And so we've introduced this kind of accidental variable that impacts people in different ways. That is a function of privilege, and I'm worried about, like, for the same reason, how it distorts the activity. Like, I can see why we're all excited about it. Right? Because they're new. Right? And so for most of us who've been training beyond 3 or 4 years, right, we've trained the old fashioned way through shoes that we get tired in and don't propel us off the ground. And now suddenly we have the secret weapon, and we're seeing all these, personal bests and things.

Guest [00:58:59]: But, I mean, now they are a requirement of entry. Right? If you wanna be able to compete on a somewhat level playing field, you have to have them. And the playing field is not level because, like, because they impact people in a different way. And another worry is, like, it makes the sport ahistorical, right, like, in a more severe way than other enhancements have in the past. Like, we're not like, our world records are not comparable to the ones in the past. We're not we can't assume that we're all staying on a on on the same start line. We're not relative equals in that respect. And so it's like having to have this new present shoe dominated period that's detached from what we've seen in the past.

Guest [00:59:48]: And the final thing is just that I just don't think the, like, innovation is over. And so I just think that as companies continue to improve the shoes, there's just an invisible stagger on starting lines with whoever happens to have the best shoe in the moment. And so what are we measuring? We're measuring shoe performance. We're not measuring, like, the actual athletes. So and that's a distraction, but it's also, like, puts a little bit of nervousness, like, in athletes, in athlete heads as they're standing on the starting line. So there are a lot of reasons I think that it was a mistake to welcome those shoes in, and and a lot of them align with kind of the enhanced games conversation. I'm I'm not worried in terms of, like, harms in the way that I am worried about physical harms falling from the enhancement games, but I am worried in terms of have we just made our sport a little bit less fair to everyone involved? So I I do have those concerns.

Cory Nagler [01:00:56]: Does it balance it out a little, though, if I were to make the argument that Kurban play to choose are just fun to feel like you have a spring in your shoe?

Guest [01:01:04]: Oh, I know they're fun. I mean, that's the thing. Like, I own a pair. I don't imagine that we'll ever get rid of them. I think once the technology is here, we all like it. I think it's here to stay. And I do think they're fun, but I just, like, also think that the sport was better without them. And I hope that in the future, when we have future technologies introduced, that it won't be commercial interests that are dictating whether or not we adopt them.

Guest [01:01:32]: Right? Because everyone knows there was a specific company that was responsible for having, like, the rule, changed. They were the ones that dictated what would be allowed, what stack height, and so forth. I don't think that any company should have that place in in dictating the terms of what's allowed.

Cory Nagler [01:01:54]: Yeah. So if you were, say, held some higher up position within the entire sport of running, not that such a thing exists, but you you have the ability to change one thing in the sport to further it, What what do you think that you would change, or what is the way to further the sport, in in such a way that I I guess stays a little bit more true to to the essence of what running is?

Guest [01:02:18]: Yeah. That is such a good question. Oh, man. I don't even know. Like, I mean, probably the thing that I would say is the, like, the which I think is, like, the most grave concern that we've become aware of recently is just, like, you know, in other countries, like in Kenya, Uganda, I mean, we've just had 2 female athletes who were murdered at the hands of former boyfriend slash husbands, who were coaches. And I think, like, athlete safety, like, advocating for the women in those countries who are running professionally and don't have a voice and don't kind of represent themselves. I think, like, that's the I know it's, like, very serious and severe and and so I'm sorry to to bring out something that is so, yeah, such a rough rough place to land. But, yeah, I do worry about, like, those situations and, yeah, whether whether those women will be protected.

Guest [01:03:26]: And so, you know, beyond any kind of, like, shoe technology and things like that, like, the safety of of athletes is something that I that I'm that I'm concerned about at the moment.

Cory Nagler [01:03:37]: Yeah. And I I I think that all follows a pretty cohesive argument in the sense that we've talked about how carbon shoes or doping can in some way be be limiters in both the health, but in in accessibility to the sport. But the those safety concerns you just voiced, that's that's a huge barrier to inclusivity in running.

Guest [01:03:56]: Yeah. For sure.

Cory Nagler [01:03:58]: And and is there anything individuals in the sports can do to help, enhance the safety of the sport of running?

Guest [01:04:05]: Yeah. Good question. I mean, some of it is like so there's a new organization. I think it's called TipRox Angels and their, fundraising currently, I think toward that end of, like, helping in terms of the protection of women in those countries, advocating for those athletes. So that's big. And I think just also becoming more aware of it. I think, like, you know, in the United States, like I mean, I don't feel unsafe on a regular basis when I train. I've never felt unsafe in the hands of a coach.

Guest [01:04:39]: And so just becoming aware of the fact that, like, not everyone is, you know, as well positioned as as here, becoming aware of, like, the situations of other people, I think, is is really, really valuable.

Cory Nagler [01:04:55]: Yeah. I feel very privileged myself that I can go out on a run-in my neighborhood and and be able to do so safely and enjoying the sport.

Guest [01:05:02]: Yep. Same.

Cory Nagler [01:05:04]: Yeah. I I think on that note, I I do recognize I'm I'm keeping you on a Friday night, so I really appreciate you making the time. But one thing I thought would be a a great way to end off on the episode was to practice virtue building here on the podcast. Oh, no. I'm not gonna put you too much on the spot, but I I think what one particular one that I I I thought would be good to work on was gratitude. So if you're okay to play along a little, I thought maybe it would be cool to hear a little bit about, in this moment, on this podcast, what are you grateful for right now?

Guest [01:05:37]: Oh my goodness. I'm grateful for so many things. I have great students. I've been thinking about them all day. Today, I I taught 3 classes. And in all three classes, I had great conversations with my wonderful students, and I just feel really privileged to get to read books with them and talk about ideas. It's just the best job ever. I'm grateful for my husband for just being, you know he exceeds me in every way and, like, takes really good care of us.

Guest [01:06:07]: Like, I will wake up, and there are always waffles. Like, I don't know. He'll make us wonderful things. And he's yeah. He's he's also a professor, so I'm very grateful for him. I'm grateful for my wonderful daughters, who are silly, and they're 24 years old and just learning a lot, and that's really fun. And I don't know. I'm grateful for the running community.

Guest [01:06:32]: I they've, like, really embraced me through the book writing process, and I've, like, reconnected with a lot of people. I've just met through racing competitively and other people, wonderful people like you, who have had, like, conversations that have been thought provoking and asked interesting questions. And so I have a lot to be grateful for.

Cory Nagler [01:06:53]: Well, thank you so much. I I really appreciate that. And and for myself, I'm I'm so grateful for all the people who support me both in running, but also beyond that in all the aspects of my life. But in particular for this community, the running community that's embraced me, but to everyone listening and and to you as well, because this has been a really great conversation, and I'm I'm so glad we were able to sit down and have such meaningful dialogue about running and life and how they fit together.

Guest [01:07:19]: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. It's been really fun.

Cory Nagler [01:07:23]: This was great. Yeah. Thank you so much, Sabrina, and have a good night.

Guest [01:07:26]: Yeah. Thank you.

Cory Nagler [01:07:42]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at Corey underscore Nagler. Birth your strap up by searching Corey Nagler, and please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast. Lastly, if you want bonus content, or Apple Podcast. Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, and consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netforward/podcast. I'll see you on the next show, but until then, happy running, everyone.