How Soon is too Soon to Start Running Again After a Marathon

Coach Hayley [00:00:01]: Take that time off afterwards and take the time to recover properly because you're gonna probably then wanna go into another training block for another goal race. And to make sure that training block is optimized, you need to recover from the one you've just done, both mentally and physically. And even if you think you're ready to go into that, you might only find out, you know, midway into that training block that perhaps you didn't recover as well as you wanted from that previous training block, and, that's not the best time to find that out. So best just to put in that time to do the recovery properly initially.

Cory Nagler [00:00:36]: It's sad to say this, but the best season of the year is coming to an end. And no. I'm not talking about fall. I'm talking about marathon season. With the New York City marathon a little over a week behind us, that pretty much wraps up all the major marathons for 2024 and most other races, with a few exceptions like CIM or Valencia, which I'll be racing in December. After a long training block, your body needs rest. Ensuring that you give yourself enough time to recover, both mentally and physically, will help with preventing burnout or injury in the next training cycle. But at some point, it's time to get back into a routine.

Cory Nagler [00:01:11]: There's so many factors that can influence how long you need to recover though. I brought coach Haley onto the show to chat about why recovery after the marathon is important, and how to manage the transition back into easy running, and then eventually a more structured training plan if you have other racing goals. There's no one size fits all answer to the question, what should I do after a marathon? But to help you with answering this for yourself, we'll get into a few topics, including how recovery looks different when racing a marathon, compared to completing it in a more controlled effort, how long you should wait after a marathon to start running again, whether it's helpful to do other forms of exercise after a marathon, how to manage coming back from a race where you picked up an injury or had to drop out early, and what your training block should look like during the weeks immediately after running a marathon. All this and more, I'm sure will make you excited to jump start your training if you just ran a marathon, or to go crush your next race if you have one coming up like me. On that note, let's get into the show. Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level.

Cory Nagler [00:02:34]: This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Welcome back to the show, coach Haley. Should we talk all things marathon today?

Coach Hayley [00:02:52]: Yes. Absolutely. It's that time of year. Let's do it.

Cory Nagler [00:02:55]: It's definitely that time of year. I don't know about where you are, but I can start to see some leaves changing color, starting to put on some gloves and some long sleeves on my runs. Are you feeling that fall marathon season?

Coach Hayley [00:03:07]: I am. Yeah. Like, I mean, I want summer to come back because it's cold, but, you know, there's some nice things about, like, running on the on the nice crunchy leaves and watching all the trees change color as well. So it's not so bad.

Cory Nagler [00:03:21]: Yeah. And I think today's topic specifically, talking about when to start running again after a marathon, is such a great topic because I always find when you finish a marathon, you're right in the middle of that perfect weather before it gets cold, at least if you live somewhere cold. And it's so tempting to just, you know, go the next day and and get in a run, but it's really not the best thing. So have you struggled with that yourself?

Coach Hayley [00:03:47]: Yeah. I mean, it's so true, and you see so many runners kinda doing it. You see them on Strava. You know, they run a marathon, and the next day, they're back out there. And even worse, the next, like, especially in this country where where it's quite common for running clubs to do, like, a Tuesday night track session. You see them do a marathon on Sunday, and they're back at the Tuesday night track session. It's like, oh, no. What are you doing? Why are you doing that? But, yeah, I understand it's so tempting, especially this time of year before the weather gets kinda really nasty.

Coach Hayley [00:04:18]: It's kinda you know, you just wanna get out there and make the most of it. But, I think, you know, recovery doesn't have to be too prolonged in terms of getting back to easy running, but I'm sure we'll get into all that. It's it's a really important discussion to have.

Cory Nagler [00:04:32]: Yeah. And I I I count myself fortunate that I actually really like the easy run. So I know a lot of runners, they wanna jump into the workouts the moment they start running again. But I actually find it's kinda nice to have that period where you're getting in some base training and just doing those easy miles.

Coach Hayley [00:04:45]: Yeah. That's so true. I I'm lucky in that way as well. I love easy running. It's it's definitely my favorite type of running and then, hard workouts are just something that I kinda do on top of that. So I don't necessarily struggle with that easy running period either.

Cory Nagler [00:05:00]: Yeah. So maybe let's start before we get into specifically what your training should look like after a marathon about why it might even look differently. Because I think a lot of runners, especially as you're training for a marathon, might be custom to doing runs 2 or 3 days in a row. But of course, running the day after a marathon is very different. So what is the impact on your body, or or why is it that you need to take special precautions and rest after you race a marathon?

Coach Hayley [00:05:26]: Yeah. I mean, if you really race a marathon as opposed to just running it, you know, it's a bit different if you just kinda just jog around to complete it or whatever. But if you really race a marathon and and do it to the best of your ability, it's kind of like like chaos for your whole body, really. You know, you've got the damage to the to the musculoskeletal system. You've got, you know, loads of inflammation, muscle muscle damage, and, you know, all the systems are kind of affected in your body, your hormonal system, your central nervous system. Like, you know, it's like a whole body thing. It's not like you think it's all about that soreness that you get in your legs, but, really, you know, there's a lot of stuff that you you can't just feel or or, you know, you can't just, just see or anything. It's just really a whole body experience, and it's, it needs to to be recovered from properly.

Cory Nagler [00:06:27]: And when you talk about going out and kind of jogging to finish, I I think for a lot of people, it can be hard to to draw that distinction, especially when you have the crowd. You can really get sucked into it even if you're meaning to go slowly. So how is it do you evaluate after a race, whether it's a race effort that you really need to take a lot of time off versus maybe more just completing the marathon where you you probably still might wanna take it a little bit easier? I think there's a lot of impact to running 26 miles, but maybe it looks a little bit different.

Coach Hayley [00:06:58]: Yeah. That's true. I mean, I think I think you're right. That there's still that impact from running 26.2 miles, and that's especially, kind of, course dependent. So if you do, like, a really hilly course, even if you're just, like, running around that to complete it, you're still gonna have that muscle damage. You're gonna have a lot of a lot of, you know, like, little tears in your muscle fibres and and more inflammation than if you just kind of run around a flat one. I think you have to put it into, like, the context of of your your seat your racing season. You know, like, if it was an a race and you specifically trained for it, then, like, treat it like it.

Coach Hayley [00:07:38]: Like, take that time off afterwards. But if it's, you know, in the context of maybe you're running an ultra and it's like a tune up race for that, then maybe you can look at it a little bit differently or, you know, you used it as a long run, but you're training for marathon later on. Again, it's kind of a different context. But if you if it was your a race, you get all your training towards it, you put in the hard training, then, like, treat it as such and take that recovery time. And no matter how you feel, how hard you feel you push on the day, because how hard you feel you pushed doesn't necessarily kind of reflect the physiological situation. And, you know, the the kind of objective measures of damage. Then if if that's the case, then take that time off afterwards and take the time to recover properly because you're gonna probably then wanna go into another training block for another goal race. And to make sure that training block is optimized, you need to recover from the one you've just done, both mentally and physically.

Coach Hayley [00:08:38]: And even if you think you're ready to go into that, you might only find out, you know, midway into that training block that perhaps you didn't recover as well as you wanted from that previous training block. And, that's not the best time to find that out. So best just to put in that time to do the recovery properly initially.

Cory Nagler [00:08:56]: I couldn't agree more. And from your own experience, when you've gone in with those gold marathons, you've put in the hard training, it's really an all out effort. Do you find that the impact afterwards has been hardest from a physical perspective in the wear and tear on your body? Or is it that mental piece that you alluded to?

Coach Hayley [00:09:14]: Yeah. I think it's just varied. You know, like I said, if I've I've done some hilly marathons, and definitely the sort of physical side is felt a bit harder then. You know, I've had it where I can't walk down the stairs for days. But then there's been some that maybe aren't so challenging from a course perspective, but perhaps I've really put everything into them. They've been really important to me. And then, and perhaps they they didn't go as planned and I was sort of fighting to the end thinking, I'm I'm not getting the time I want or whatever. They can be more, like, mentally draining and sometimes you need more time to recover from those ones even if you think, oh, I really wanna get back out there and, like, make amends to this performance.

Coach Hayley [00:09:57]: Sometimes that mental side is perhaps a bit harder to recover from, I think.

Cory Nagler [00:10:01]: Yeah. I I really do think it is individualistic. So just I think I missed there. Were you saying a hillier course you find is more or less mentally draining?

Coach Hayley [00:10:11]: I find a hillier course more, like, physically draining. Mentally, it's a bit easier, I think, because well, in terms of the hillier ones I've done, there's not been such a time focus. And mentally, it feels a bit easier. But physically, the muscle damage, especially in, like, the quads and and the glutes can be quite severe. Sort of the with those races, I kind of sometimes feel like your body is a bit of, like, a full of, like, toxic waste afterwards when you can really feel, like, the muscles just, you know, in a lot of pain and and sort of really stiff. And so afterwards, they perhaps take more physically, but I find them a bit easier mentally because there's not such a strong pace focus often.

Cory Nagler [00:10:49]: Yeah. And I I think I experienced for the first time when I ran Boston, and listeners may be familiar with this if they've run CIM, but it's it's really a lot of those downhills that really have the hardest impact afterwards, because it bangs up your quad so much.

Coach Hayley [00:11:02]: Yeah. Definitely. The downhills are the worst. They're what you need to prepare for, and they're what take over the recovering from afterwards.

Cory Nagler [00:11:09]: Yeah. They they truly are. So after you've run this goal marathon, be it a hilly course or a flat course, how long do you think runners have to wait to fully recover before they can start running again? Or or if it's not a specific timeline, what are those signs that a runner should look forward to know that they're ready to start up?

Coach Hayley [00:11:27]: Yeah. I mean, for me, as a coach and as a self coach, self coach athlete, I have, like, a sort of protocol that I sort of kind of follow, but then I always adjust it based on, like, you know, like, subjective and objective measures of recovery and, like, the individual athlete. I mean, I have, like, a kind of general principle of for every, like because using it for an ultra as well. For every 10 miles you run, you take like a day off. So for a marathon, there's like a definite 3 days off that I really like people to take whatever the whatever they wanna do and whatever the situation. And, after those full 3 days off, things perhaps become a little more individualized, for an athlete. Like, thinking of things like what was the course really hilly? Because if so, probably have them take another couple of rest days after those initial 3. You know, how hard did they go in the race and in the training as well? Like, why are they really pushing the limits in their training? You know, were they doing more miles than they ever did before? Or did they perhaps have to pull back? I mean, in the training block due to, like, injury or illness.

Coach Hayley [00:12:37]: Because the recovery block after the marathon is about recovering from that training as well. So it's really important to take how that went, into account. If the athlete was kind of on the edge of going into some, like, maybe overreaching or, like, you know, like a bit too much fatigue when we started to taper, then that's gonna be taken into account in the recovery. Then after those three initial rest days for most people, it's generally okay to start with, like, some easy running. So long as the athlete can keep it really easy, I've definitely coached athletes before who struggled to run easy. So if like, I feel like they might not be able to do that, I might give them a little bit longer off. But if I know that as someone who knows really how to, to run easy and, and cancel forget the watch and just, go very relaxed, then I get people back into easy running pretty quickly because, you know, it can actually help recovery. Same thing for doing some, like, controlled strides as long as there's no kinda injury concerns or any really excessive soreness.

Coach Hayley [00:13:41]: I'll get people doing strides pretty quickly as well because things like that can actually help with, like, the central nervous system recovery and get people's, people sort of feeling a bit better and and actually help, the recovery to go a bit quicker, I find. That's especially true. For myself, I find that if I have too long away from from easy running strides, she start to feel a bit worse. So it really just depends on the person, how they've kind of felt recovery goes for them before as well. But yeah. Not sorry, Corey. What you have you have a question?

Cory Nagler [00:14:18]: Yeah. It was more of a comment, really. But I was just gonna say I'm interested by your answer in part because it it falls on kind of the shorter end of what I've heard. Typically, a lot of the recommendations will range anywhere from 2 to 3 days completely off to sometimes as long as 2 weeks or more off. So when you say those 3 days, is that a minimum and it's often more? Or do you think taking 2 weeks off is maybe a little bit overly aggressive?

Coach Hayley [00:14:42]: Yeah. Absolutely. It's a minimum. And like I say, it really does depend on the athlete, and often I'll end up giving an athlete a lot more that really is a minimum. But then for most people, I think 2 weeks probably is a bit excessive. I know for myself, I probably start to feel worse. And, you know, doing some movement and some easy running is actually pretty good for us, as long as we know how to keep it fully easy. So I think most people don't need that full 2 weeks off.

Coach Hayley [00:15:09]: And, you know, definitely, in that time, you will probably lose a little bit of fitness. So, obviously, that's, you know, that's not necessarily a problem depending on kind of goals going forward. But I think I think I mean, again, it depends on the athlete and how keen they are to run. But I think a lot of people kind of find they want to get back into running soon, and I don't really have a problem with that as long as they can keep the easy running super easy. I think, unless there's, like, injury or overtraining concerns, then 2 weeks is is kind of excessive in in my mind. But that's not to say I just give every 3 days and then, like, do what you want. That's, like, 3 days and then, you know, super easy, relaxed running, short as well, like, nothing, you know, that's just, you know, getting out for for 5 k or whatever just to get because getting that blood kind of flowing and moving is really helpful for recovery and being sedentary still isn't very good for anyone even if we are athletes. So, there's benefits to that movement as well.

Coach Hayley [00:16:06]: So, yeah, definitely a minimum, but also, I think it'd be rare for me to give someone a full 2 weeks if they weren't injured or, suffering from any kind of fatigue issues.

Cory Nagler [00:16:19]: And how does that maybe differ for more structured workouts? I'm I'm not referring to strides here. More, say, a longer tempo session or a VO 2 max workout on the track. How soon after those 3 days could you progress to doing something with a little bit more intensity?

Coach Hayley [00:16:36]: Yeah. Like, I have a much higher threshold for doing that kind of thing. I yeah. I would be extremely unlikely to describe that to anyone or do it myself within 2 weeks of a race. I would want those first two weeks to be all super easy, nothing kind of adding more fatigue, just the strides to get things like the legs turning over, but no hard workouts for 2, even 3 weeks, that, you know, after those first two weeks, that 3rd week, there might be like a mini workout. I like to do that on hills sometimes just because hills are kind of low impact and it it like test things out. But yeah, before those 2 weeks, I wouldn't be giving people workouts. I think I think why? Because, like, your your body is still recovering, so you're not gonna get, like, the adaptations you want anyways.

Coach Hayley [00:17:23]: So, yeah, it doesn't seem to make sense to me. I, again, I see that kind of a lot on people's Strava, you know, when they, like, do a marathon on Sunday and then they're back doing a track session on the Tuesday. And it just it's always frustrated me a bit because I think, like, what are you what are you try what are you gonna be achieving from doing that track session, apart from just adding to that damage. And whilst easy running, it's kind of, you know, helpful for healing and isn't really breaking you down. Those hard workouts are breaking you down. So when your body's trying to recover from being broken down, it doesn't make any sense to me to go and do those harder workouts. Give yourself 2 or 3 weeks before doing those. And maybe longer depending on how you're feeling on those easy runs and strides.

Coach Hayley [00:18:06]: You know? Like, the you get so much of your fitness from easy running and strides anyway. There's just no need to rush into those workouts, I think.

Cory Nagler [00:18:14]: Yeah. And do you find you often have to reel your athletes back? Are they often wanting to do those workouts much sooner? Or do your athletes typically want to wait after they've done that hard marathon training?

Coach Hayley [00:18:26]: Yeah. I mean, I I never really had a problem with someone not wanting to wait, to be honest. I think maybe they can feel it themselves when they do the easy running and strides that they, that they need to wait a little bit longer. I think I mean, yeah, I don't think it's really been a problem. I'm sure there are some athletes like that, though. I mean, maybe maybe I'm just really strict with them, and they know how much how much I have strongly I feel about it. But yeah. No.

Coach Hayley [00:18:56]: Not really. It's not been a problem.

Cory Nagler [00:18:58]: And what about if we go to the other end of the spectrum from intense workouts and we talk about either low impact activities, cross training, like cycling or elliptical, or maybe, you know, more lower aerobic exercises like walking, hiking, are those something that you could do right after? I I know, for example, if you're taking a a runcation somewhere, it might be common for for runners to wanna walk around a lot the day after. Is is that something that's beneficial, or are you hampering your recovery?

Coach Hayley [00:19:27]: I mean, like, it yeah. Again, unless there's, like, some kind of injury issue, I think walking is generally just gonna help. Like, I when I've done ultras recently, I like to include a lot of sort of walking and hiking in the recovery because I think it's just really good for you and it's not gonna break you down. I mean, you know, unless people take it to the extremes and they're walking, like, 10 hours a day or something, I don't think it's gonna hinder your recovery as long as you're, like, meeting your fuel needs as well. I think walking is great and I will you know, when I've done, like, a marathon on a Sunday, I've always although I don't run at all, on that Monday, I'm like, I always take my dog for a bit more of a bit of a longer walk than normal, very relaxed. And I think that's really great, like, psychologically and physically, like, already starting to get that blood flowing and, like but, you know, obviously, like, don't maybe walk up like a mountain or something, but within reason, walking is a really great recovery activity. And the same with like cross training, although in those first 3 days, I think be careful with it because I think it's easy to get a bit carried away with it and think, oh, I'm on the bike. You know, I'm not gonna be doing any more damage.

Coach Hayley [00:20:35]: And then, like, maybe pushing it a bit hard, and that's not what you wanna do in those first few days. But if it's like a gentle spin and you just, like enjoying it or something, then, you know, that's pretty you can include that pretty soon after. But I think it's important to know yourself and your, like, tendencies when you exercise. Because I think if I did anything, any like structured or, you know, any any planned cross training in those 1st 3 days, there might be a tendency for me to, like, approach it in a way, like, oh, what's my power on the bike? Or, you know, so, like, I think for most people, it's kind of best to just on those first 3 days, just maybe some walking, and that's about it. But, if you are someone who can really, like, just enjoy a cycle or something without looking at any numbers, then sure.

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Cory Nagler [00:24:19]: Hey. Hey. I was gonna say you're the complete opposite of me. When I see a number on a watch, I know intuitively kinda what that means. There's maybe a temptation to go quicker. Seeing watts on a bike means absolutely nothing to me. So I find it's very easy to just go very relaxed and have no conception of of how I'm actually doing.

Coach Hayley [00:24:38]: I wish my brain works a bit more like that, I think. Maybe that's why I I am not so good at cross training either because I just get a bit competitive with with the numbers. But, it's a work in progress.

Cory Nagler [00:24:50]: Are are you pushing big wattage on the bike?

Coach Hayley [00:24:53]: I'm not very good at biking at all. No. Like, I mean, I get competitive with myself maybe, but compared to, like, your average cyclist, I'm pretty poor.

Cory Nagler [00:25:04]: Right. Alright. Well, maybe that's why you've stuck to this whole running thing and

Coach Hayley [00:25:08]: that seems to me out. Me. So

Cory Nagler [00:25:10]: not a problem. I would like to go into a kind of a few scenarios that would influence your recovery and get your thoughts on it. How do you feel about doing this a little bit of a semi rapid fire style?

Coach Hayley [00:25:22]: Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds good.

Cory Nagler [00:25:25]: Okay. And, obviously, I'll add the caveat that this is all very individualized overall, your recovery, but I think there are some factors that influence it. The first one that I'll get into, you actually mentioned. But, say, you do pick up an injury, we'll say during the race that you went into it healthy. How does that maybe impact your return to running afterwards?

Coach Hayley [00:25:46]: Yeah. I mean, I think you've got to prioritize recovering from the injuries. So that might mean you need to take a bit longer off. I would recommend getting it checked out by, like, a sports injury professional as well. Like, post marathon is a great time to get, like, a physio MOT and see what you could be working on as you kinda get back into things.

Cory Nagler [00:26:06]: I

Coach Hayley [00:26:07]: think you definitely don't wanna get back into things without that injury being, like, assessed and having a bit of a recovery plan for it. And, you know, it does depend on the injury because I think it's easy to do the opposite of going back into it too hard and maybe thinking because I've done this marathon, I now just do nothing because I've got this injury as well. But I think it's important to make sure you would still rehab an injury as you normally would. Yeah. So for for example, from from myself, I twisted my ankle in an ultra earlier this year and then had, like, some time off afterwards. And because I was, like, having a bit of a rest from running as well, I think I didn't quite think hard enough about that rehab side of things. And, when I did get back to running, I had to work quite hard on my ankle, but I could have kind of been a bit ahead of the game on that and and started the rehab exercises while I was kinda still resting from running. So I think it's really important to to, maybe break that post marathon rest a bit to make sure you are still starting those rehab exercises in, like, a timely manner.

Coach Hayley [00:27:19]: Because with soft tissue injuries, we only really wanna go, wanting to rest those for, like, 24 to 48 hours, and then it's rehab time. So, just because you're having a rest post marathon, like, don't forget that rehab. Still rehab it as normal because you don't wanna get back to running and then find you develop, like, these imbalances and weaknesses. So, that's really important, I think. And, like, with the sort of getting back into some easy cross training, it's like with those soft tissue injuries, it does help to get, like, the blood flowing to them and stuff. So, again, not an excuse to to completely switch off, especially in terms of rehab and getting stuff stronger again.

Cory Nagler [00:28:00]: Yeah. I think those are really good points, and definitely look after your health first before rushing back into training.

Coach Hayley [00:28:06]: Absolutely.

Cory Nagler [00:28:08]: Alright. The the next scenario I'd like to go over is, say you get to your goal race and you have to pull out early. And we'll say for non injury related reasons, be it, you know, maybe some dehydration or GI issues, is it then okay to come back a lot quicker and maybe even sign up for another marathon? Or does the stress of the race you've run so far and the training require you to still take that same break as you would if you'd finished the whole run?

Coach Hayley [00:28:35]: Yeah. I think this is really individual, like yeah. It really depends on when you pulled out in the race. Like, running 20 miles and then dropping out because you're completely exhausted is very different from getting to mile 5 and twisting an ankle. Yeah. And, you know, it's it's why you dropped out. Did you drop out because you were really, really fatigued? And perhaps, you do need a bit more rest then? Or did you drop out because you were really unlucky to pick up, like, a stomach bug in the lead up or something. And if it's if that's the kind of situation we're dealing with, I don't you know, sometimes people have done so much hard training and I don't wanna then just say, you know, we need to recover now.

Coach Hayley [00:29:19]: We are just gonna have to wait ages to do another full marathon training block and do it again. You know, I think there's a there's a time and place to be like, right. You haven't really exhausted yourself much here. We can get back into things fairly quickly and have another go because you've put in so much hard work for this. Let's, like, use that fitness rather than and sort of letting it go to waste just because you got a bug or you, you know, something didn't go exactly the plan with the fueling on the day. Of course, an injury is a bit different because you need to prioritize recovering that injury. If you got injured and dropped out because you pulled a hamstring or whatever, then it's not a good idea to then just try and get back into things quicker than the hamstring recovery allows just so you can do another one. So, yeah, it's really kinda context dependent.

Coach Hayley [00:30:08]: And I think it is it is really important to make sure you're not just, like because you've done all that training for that one. It is important to make sure you're not just, like, stacking fatigue onto fatigue or whatever, but I think you've had that tapered to to recover a bit as well. And I think if someone has fitness that they they could use, if things went more to plan, it's okay to get back into training a bit quicker. But it's so context dependent. It's hard to give, like, a a a rule for that one.

Cory Nagler [00:30:34]: Yeah. Obviously, I think it depends a lot on where you drop out, of course. But I I think Yes. Generally speaking, it it sounds like maybe if it's not for injury related reasons and it's midway through, you can get back a little bit quicker to training. Is that fair?

Coach Hayley [00:30:47]: Yeah. I think so. Unless it's to do with, like, you just felt so fatigued, and then maybe perhaps it was, like, an overtraining problem in the training block. And then we really wanna recover from that as well.

Cory Nagler [00:30:59]: Yeah. That makes sense. Okay. What about if you face extreme conditions on the course? And I'm talking about things like extreme heat, extreme cold, lots of wind, which is interesting because those are obviously stresses on your body. But they probably also mean that aerobically, you might not be getting to the same pace as you would otherwise. So how does this impact the amount of time it takes to recover?

Coach Hayley [00:31:22]: Yeah. That's a that's a tricky one because, like you say, you might have a bit less muscle damage potentially if you're not running as quickly, or you might you might be a little bit less fatigue from that perspective. But those environmental stresses, do you just have, like, they add to perhaps that, like, hormonal, you know, storm of of issues that occur after race and perhaps some, like, added inflammation or or things like that, central nervous system fatigue. So it it needs to be, again, quite individual. Like, you could probably still start with those definite 3 days off, whatever. And then it's like, how are you feeling? I mean, I think how you're feeling is so important in this as well. Like, if you measure things like resting heart rate or HRV, like, what are they doing? Are they kinda going back to normal? Are they still looking pretty bad? How's your sleep? How's your mood? Like, are you still waking up really hungry in the in the in the night or, like, feeling really hungry throughout the day? Like, how your legs are? There's so many different things that you can kind of assess. And you know your own body.

Coach Hayley [00:32:25]: Like, most people know their own body pretty well better than a coach does. So, like, if you're really honest with yourself, you'll know how how ready you are to go back into training anyway. And they that becomes even more important in these races of, like, environmental stresses because everyone responds to different environmental stresses differently as well. Like, some people are great in the heat, but some people, it really they really struggle with it. So that's when knowing more about yourself comes into it and how you feel and how you're recovering. The only the only kind of problem with those, subjective measures is, like, sometimes you can kind of feel worse from having more time off. Like, I definitely find that myself sometimes having time off makes me feel kind of worse when I go back into running. So I think in at that point, it's like still having a fairly low threshold for going into, like, very easy jocks and then give yourself a few well, quite a lot of days doing that and sort of assess how you're feeling because I find that I need those, like, easy jogs to feel okay again anyways.

Coach Hayley [00:33:28]: So, it can be easy to kinda start doing the easy running and think, oh god. I feel terrible. I need more time off. But I kinda feel like I need to I have to I have tested this. I have to kinda go through that to feel better, but I know how to keep it easy and I know how to, like, do the other things right as well, which is really important in terms of, like, sleep and nutrition and that. So, yeah, very individual.

Cory Nagler [00:33:52]: Yeah. A 100%. Okay. I'm gonna move on to one more, which is probably a good problem to have. But let's say you've gone into race day, you've given it your all, things have gone phenomenally, but you finished feeling like you just have more in the tank still. Is that then a reason that maybe you get back to training a little bit quicker?

Coach Hayley [00:34:14]: Yeah. I'm always pretty cautious with that one. Because I think if you have a really great race and you're like smashing your goals and you're thinking, wow, I can't believe this is going so well for me. I think that like adrenaline kinda makes you feel good. And it makes you feel like you got more in the tank when you perhaps don't. For example, when I ran my my fastest ever time, I remember thinking that. I remember thinking, oh, I feel really great. This is easy.

Coach Hayley [00:34:39]: I must have so much left. I could go so much faster, but I never have gone faster. And I think perhaps, and I've heard this from from quite a few people that when you're having such a great race, you know, having, like, a day or whatever, you can feel like you've still got a lot in the tank, but it's not it doesn't necessarily line up with where you are physiologically. And I think you have to respect that and appreciate that. There's probably a lot of adrenaline involved in those kind of situations that is perhaps marking how you feel a bit, and that might continue a bit after the race as well. So, I think it's it's unless you unless you really think, you know, there's a particular reason why I did not put it all out there, like perhaps, you know, a cramp or I know a stomach issue and you think, oh, I've got so much fitness here. I could I could use that quite quickly again. If it's just that you hit your goal and you still felt like you had loads left in the tank, just consider that it's probably quite adrenaline based and you maybe don't have as much left as you perhaps thought.

Coach Hayley [00:35:43]: And just give it those 3 days off. Give it some easy running and see how you feel. Because once that adrenaline kinda goes out your system, you might kinda crash. That's definitely something that's happened to me a bit before. I think initially still go with that recovery plan.

Cory Nagler [00:35:58]: Yeah. I think that's maybe a bigger lesson for the marathon to wait to fully evaluate it until the next day because there's just so many emotions going through you when you finish, whether it's a good race or a poor one.

Coach Hayley [00:36:08]: Yeah. Absolutely.

Cory Nagler [00:36:10]: Okay. I'm gonna go through one more example, and this is not to do with what happened during the race. But let's say you actually have 2 goal races. I think it's not totally uncommon that runners will have a marathon, and then they might plan another one, say, 2, 3, 4 weeks out. I'll use the scenario of a runner who wants to race again in a month's time. At that point, are you better off still taking that rest period and then getting back to it? Or do you ramp up a little quicker if you have another marathon on the horizon?

Coach Hayley [00:36:43]: Yeah. I think, you still wanna take those 3 days off. I mean, you're not gonna lose any fitness in that time and still, optimizing performance in that next marathon is still gonna be mostly about being recovered from that first one. I think it's it's kind of a bit of a dangerous game to just try and get back into training as quick as possible because, I mean, you're not probably gonna change fitness much between those 2 marathons. It really is gonna be how much you recover. Like, yes, you can get back into those easy runs quick. You can make sure you don't lose any fitness by getting back into that easy running and make sure you don't lose that, like, turnover by sort of getting the strides back quickly. But I just don't think you I mean, it's a tricky one to coach because you aren't gonna make any, like, fitness gains probably in between those 2, but you could lose fitness.

Coach Hayley [00:37:32]: So there is a balance to get. And I think still take those 3 days off, still take that 1st week fully easy. Take the 2nd week for the easy as well, but get in quite a lot of strides. Maybe like a moderately long, but still easy one. Maybe then, you know, if you're feeling good, you could get in something to get the legs moving a bit the the next week. But, I mean, then you're just gonna be tapering for for that next marathon anyway. So I think don't focus on training to gain fitness in between those 2. Just focus on what's gonna keep, you know, keep what you already have and allow to use any finish you gained from the last training block, which is, again, easy running, strides, maybe a little bit of, like, like, turnover stuff, like, little bit of fartlek or whatever.

Coach Hayley [00:38:14]: But, you know, you're not gonna gain anything. So just yeah. That's something to be careful with because it's so tempting to, like, to just try and, you know, gain something between the 2, but it's really not gonna gonna happen. So it's there's there's a lot you can do to help you recover. But in terms of of getting better between the 2, it's probably pretty unlikely.

Cory Nagler [00:38:33]: Yeah. I've always found and I think this is fairly accurate that I've been told it takes a week and a half to 2 weeks delay before you actually get the benefits from a workout or run. And I I think it kinda holds true that it's not like you're getting fitter immediately the next day if you go and do a long run.

Coach Hayley [00:38:50]: Yeah. I mean, it's definitely true for some adaptations. I think there's, like, neuromuscular things that can happen and, like, yeah, maybe neuromuscular stuff that can happen in shorter time frame. So that's why it's worth doing things like strides and maybe, like, mini fartlets. But, yeah, like, you're not gonna see, like, meaningful big changes in fitness. So, yeah, like, agree with that. Yeah.

Cory Nagler [00:39:11]: Yeah. Alright. Haley, I think there's gonna be a lot of runners listening here that either are coming up on their goal marathon or have just completed it, and this is gonna be super relevant. So for those runners to wrap up after they finish their race, how do they go about structuring their next training block once they're ready to get back into it? What do those initial weeks months look like? And, again, we'll assume here that your next marathon is not for a long time until the spring, excluding those runners who maybe have another goal race in a few weeks.

Coach Hayley [00:39:42]: Yeah. That's a really good question. It can be hard to know what to do when your next marathon's quite quite far away. And I think it it's sort of important to remember that math in specific blocks, all the really long workouts and and long runs is only really needs to be 12 weeks, and doing longer than that might lead to kinda some overtraining or some kind of plateauing of performance and whatever. And, but there's still, you know, there's a lot you can do in between, and you can always do a lot. You can also lose a lot. So I think what you do in between that next specific training block is kind of super important. So once you've had those, like, 3 recovery weeks easy and strides, you can start getting back into workouts and things.

Coach Hayley [00:40:24]: And you don't you don't wanna stay away from that stuff too long because I know you hear about, like, elite athletes taking you off, like, 2 months or whatever, but that's because they're elite athletes and they probably have some, like, super physiological variables that allows them to adapt really quickly and not lose fitness. And, you know, I think for the regular runner, like, taking that long off just isn't effective. You're just gonna be in, like, a state of never really improving. You're just gonna gain fitness, lose fitness, get back to where you are, lose fitness, get back to where you were. Like, it's it's just not gonna work for the regular person even though it kinda works a bit for for elite runners. And you'll hear them having, like, whole off seasons where they especially in the ultra world, do you hear of, like, off seasons where people kind of don't really run for the entire winter or whatever? But I think for the regular runner, that doesn't work. And there's I mean, there's a whole it's a whole problem in itself trying to train, like, elites because they're elites for a reason. Because they have, like, some, you know, super, like, genetic gifts that allow them to adapt really quickly or not lose fitness.

Coach Hayley [00:41:24]: But for most of us, we kinda need to to get back into training fairly quickly, really, when we recover. Because you're you're basically losing fitness if you're not getting back into training, of course. So, like, s a speed rebuilding phase is often, like, really beneficial before you start the next marathon training block. And I'm always keen for my athletes to to do that. So maybe work on, like, a 5 k or a 10 k for a bit. I can have so many benefits when you get back into your next math and training block, and that speed is gonna really serve you well. It's also a nice mental break as well because it the training can feel like so different. Like, train for a fast 5 k maybe, but that gets you, you know, get back into training fairly quickly when you when you recovered.

Coach Hayley [00:42:07]: And and then, yeah, hit some, like, faster workouts and and enjoy it and have fun with it. Don't put, like, loads of pressure on the time of it or whatever, but it's gonna be really beneficial when you go back into that marathon training. I know a lot of well, some coaches seem to like, you know, going into like a base building period of like loads of miles and stuff. But for me, I find that's quite similar to marathon training really. And actually what can be more beneficial is just working some different energy systems that you perhaps didn't touch on much when you were training for the marathon. Yeah. Like, I'm really keen for people to work at, like, a shorter distance. If that is something that appeals to them, I mean, they might hate it at which point is not such a great idea, but there can still be ways to to work on speed, so that that's that's there for them when they get into the next math and training block.

Cory Nagler [00:42:54]: Yeah. I love that period of time where you can kind of put aside having to watch your watch or track the mileage and really just focus on getting in some runs and focusing on stuff that you don't do the rest of the year. So I think that's great.

Coach Hayley [00:43:05]: Yeah. Absolutely.

Cory Nagler [00:43:07]: For yourself, Hailey, we we chatted about this just a little bit before recording, but we're now in late October as we're recording this, and this episode will, of course, be live in in November. But are you yourself resetting from a race? Are you gearing up for 1? What phase are you at right now?

Coach Hayley [00:43:21]: Yeah. I'm having to do a race in January that I haven't really it's like at the end of January, so I haven't really started training for it yet. I am kind of I had like a a a kind of mini niggle, which hasn't really taken me out of running, but it's just reminding me that I perhaps need to get there, like, physio MOT and really get to work on some strength stuff. So kind of mostly keeping the miles low and focusing on, like, some strength stuff right now, which has been fun because that's, like, really not something that I have tended to do in the past. I think just getting into my thirties, you know, it's told me, like, actually, you can't get away with stuff you did in your twenties where you did, like, no strength work and, just wanted to run loads of miles. So I'm kind of experimenting with a a slightly different way of training that, works well in between ultras, which is, like, kind of more strength and speed focus. So, yeah, it's fun. I'm enjoying doing some different, like, plyometrics and and weight training and stuff.

Coach Hayley [00:44:10]: So, again, not very good at that. So, weight training by my standards is pretty probably pretty pathetic by most people's standards, but I'm enjoying it anyway. How about you, Corey?

Cory Nagler [00:44:22]: Yeah. I I think weight training for runners in general probably looks pathetic to the actual weight lifting community. But I I think it's actually pretty ironic the timing of both of our races because I'm right now trying to gear up for Valencia in December, trying to kinda nurse a bit of a niggle slash injury after some earlier races. But it's it is kind of funny that we're talking right now about what to do after the fall racing season, but really both of us are probably racing in between the fall and winter seasons.

Coach Hayley [00:44:48]: Yeah. I feel like, ultra running in particular doesn't follow, like, such seasons that I used to follow when I did, like, math and so I was, you know, spring math and little bit of speed for math and, kind of out of that cycle now. But, yeah, I used to enjoy that kind of routine of things anyway.

Cory Nagler [00:45:05]: Yep. A 100%. Well, Haley, thanks so much, and I think that was all great advice for running the marathon, and wish you best of luck with your Ultra.

Coach Hayley [00:45:13]: Thank you. Hope Valencia training goes well to you.

Cory Nagler [00:45:16]: Thank you very much, Haley. This was awesome. Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at Corey underscore Nagler. Birth your Strava by searching Corey Nagler, and please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast. Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, and consider with guests, and premier access to contests, then consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netforward/podcast.

Cory Nagler [00:46:05]: I'll see you on the next show. But until then, happy running, everyone.