How Caffeine can Boost Performance as a Runner

Guest 3 [00:00:00]: I had that moment of, like, surely there there must be a product that is out there that you don't have to take a gel to get the caffeine, particularly if I was doing tempo runs, interval sessions, or even at the end of long runs when I was tired. I didn't wanna take a gel just to get that kick.

Guest [00:00:20]: David Heller might just be one of the most interesting people I've ever met. He's a former competitive trail runner and commentator for Eurosport, as well as the Golden Trail World Series. He's also host of the Bad Boy Running podcast, where he has casual pup style conversations with other runners. The real reason I brought him on the show though, was to talk about Caffeine Bullet, a brand that he started to give runners an option for a caffeinated chew that's quickly absorbed, without the need for a gel. Caffeine is widely considered a legal performance enhancer. And I love that the quick hit of energy it provides can make a hard run feel easier. As much as I love my morning cup of coffee, it just doesn't sit well with me on the run, And neither do gels with caffeine in them. Today, I'll chat with David about how and why caffeine works to improve running performance.

Cory Nagler [00:01:08]: And how you can fit caffeine of any kinds into your fueling strategy, if you don't already. Or if you struggle to find something that works like I do. So let's get into it. Hello, runners, and welcome to the Run to the Top podcast, where our goal is making you a better runner with each and every episode. I'm your showrunner, Corey Nagler. And I'm not an elite runner, but together, we'll explore new strategies and topics to take your running to the next level. This podcast is created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, where you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. It's not every day that I'm joined by a fellow podcaster, but excited to have host of the Bad Boy Running podcast here with me, David Hallard.

Cory Nagler [00:02:02]: Thanks for joining me.

Guest 3 [00:02:04]: Oh, my pleasure. Super excited. Thanks for having me on. I've it's my first Canadian podcast, and, can't wait.

Cory Nagler [00:02:11]: Well, I'd say that you are our first, English host, but, one of our coaches, Hayley, is actually from England. So I'll say you're you're the first external interview I've done who's from England.

Guest [00:02:20]: Oh, Hayley. You've ruined it for me. Hayley, why? Cut my mustard.

Cory Nagler [00:02:26]: If it makes you feel any better, she's recently converted from the roads to the trails, so she's a a full member of the club now. Oh, fantastic. She's seen the light. Alright. So we kinda just nudge on it a little mentioning that you're really into trail running, but I'd love for you to give for our listeners just an overview of how you describe yourself as a runner. I know you're an entrepreneur, a podcaster, a runner. So it how would you want people to describe you?

Guest [00:02:54]: I mean, it's it's if I was actually to describe myself as a runner currently, it's it's barely running at all because I've got a a 9 month old. And, it's just a lot of time, which means I'm a lot of time. And, yeah, I've I've barely got out the door in the last month. But, I I because I've been running for so long and it's become my life and my business, I guess I wear a lot of hats as as I describe it. So I present the Golden Trail World Series, commentate for it on Eurosport and on, you know, 100 channels around the world. But then I'm the founder of Caffeine Bullet, which is a caffeine product, specifically created for running, but have a podcast, Bubble Running Podcast, that's been running since 2015. And then do a host of other things as well linked to running, whether it's hosting the, the Okta stage at the there's the Boston run show this year, but also the UK, run show. And and pretty much I I don't know if you have the same thing in Canada where there's networks of faces, but I'd be one of those people that you just see at stuff where I was running for years and been like, who's that guy? Why is he always around? That's basically been my life.

Guest [00:04:11]: And while, while I was a reasonable runner for about 8 years or so, that stopped pre COVID with with an injury, and then since recovery, getting old and lack of motivation and time to actually well, I guess, realization that I'm never gonna prioritize training hard enough to get back to the level that in my head I was. So I'm quite content now just to enjoy running and still still train the odd session hard because I enjoy those sessions. But, realistically, I don't think I'm ever gonna see a PB unless I I run a, like, a 2.5 mile race or come up with some wacky thing that I've never done before. Otherwise, yeah, I every day is a battle to just try and be anywhere near as fast as in as as my ego would want me to be, basically.

Cory Nagler [00:05:06]: So so when you say not a bad runner, though, you you have some pretty impressive results. I think you you've won many local or even international races in your prime. Is that right?

Guest [00:05:16]: Yeah. I mean, I I think my record on paper is a lot better than my ability than my actual ability. I because I've always been drawn to the story, partly as a journalist, partly because of the podcast. It's meant that and also the excitement of, I think, doing a a a first race in a a new country is, for me, is one of the greatest experience in running because seeing the impact that has on a country, the transformational effect it can have. So I've often entered races where the level of competition isn't necessarily as high as the, the result may suggest. So I've I've I was Somaliland marathon champion, which is the home of Mo Farah. You know, I've I've raced Afghanistan, won in, where else? Burma and, various marathons in the UK and obstacle racing and stuff. But I I think if you were to to if I was to take my ability then and race now, like, the strength and depth of running globally now has massively changed.

Guest [00:06:27]: And so, yeah, I'd I'd be happy with, kind of championship starts now and things like that. But I I I guess we we all have different goals, and my goals were were creating fun fun stories and experiences. And, rather than I'd I'd much rather come first in something that was gonna be a great story to tell one day than come, come 10th of a far but better time in a a high caliber race, which is the reverse of most people, which is good for me because it allowed me to then do well in those races.

Cory Nagler [00:07:04]: Yeah. Absolutely. And I know you said you are obviously balancing your training with the busy life and, and kids, but do you have any running goals right now or any kind of wonky races that you're gunning for?

Guest [00:07:16]: I've really got nothing, but it's it's it's the first time in my life where it almost feels selfish to be training now because, you know, I'm away from my son and away from my wife, and she wants to be fit as well. But the I mean, the beer lovers the craft half is that I I quite like running in that's another thing I do. Sorry. I get sidetracked. I also put on races under the guise of beer belly running. So we put on things like the the Let's Get Shit Raced, the the Great British Beerathon. And, and so the there's something called the craft car craft half, which is a half marathon with beers on the way around raising money for StreetChild who, amazing organization. And so that's now in my diary.

Guest [00:08:05]: So that's my new target race. And just surviving that, probably probably surviving the drinking of that because I've as much as I've reduced my running, I've absolutely stopped socializing and drinking at all compared to what I used to. So I think both of those are gonna be a challenge for me. Next year, I'm hoping once life is more stable, I can get back into training. I've I'd love to do a 100 mares sometime, but in my head, I'm I'm almost telling myself it's probably gonna be waiting until they're 10 10 years old. And I could go and do a Sunday run without interrupting family life. That will be the first time that I can really start to have some goals that I'd be motivated by or or proud of the results. So, that seems a long way off, but I'm sure it's gonna appear a lot quicker than, hoped for.

Cory Nagler [00:08:59]: Yeah. And any chance that any of those goal races end up being in Canada? I know Sulphur Springs has recently added a 100 mile. We have the Great Canadian death race. There's some good longer ones.

Guest [00:09:09]: Yeah. To be honest, I'd I'd love for the golden trail to go there because, you know, there's some there are some really good Canadian athletes, and it's constantly moving. It seems to be in North America focused on California at the moment, but I'd love to go and race the I mean, you guys have got such vast wilderness and incredible peaks. So, yeah, I'd love to do something like that. But, typically, when my wife and I, when we've traveled previously because when I was running in Myanmar, she raced there as well, and in fact, we we got engaged at the finish line of Comrades, ultra marathon. And so Canada is one of our destinations that we both wanna go to. So I know when we go there, it won't be a 100 mile because that would ruin the holiday, but we'll certainly do a race of some sort, while we're out there. I'd imagine a city half or a city marathon, but, you know, we can tie in some trail race or something and actually get into the middle of nowhere.

Guest [00:10:13]: That'd be that'd be amazing.

Cory Nagler [00:10:16]: I love it. Well, I'll put in a plug for the Toronto waterfront marathon in October. It's a phenomenal race if you are looking for a road run.

Guest [00:10:22]: Oh, fantastic. Hopefully, on the list.

Cory Nagler [00:10:25]: Yeah. Definitely. So I I know the main focus for today is gonna be on caffeine primarily because you started your own business, Caffeine Bullet, which, by the way, fantastic supplements. Like, I I take the the chews there mainly before my runs, and they're so quick to absorb, so easy to digest. I'd love to know what started you thinking about wanting to start that business in the first place?

Guest [00:10:49]: It very much a need. Because when I used to raise sites, at the time, it should have been around kind of 2010 through to 2016, 17. There were caffeine gels, but, actually, often I'd I wouldn't want a caffeine gel when I needed my caffeine. And I've always used rate caffeine through the latter half of the race, as a pick me up rather than starting off with it. And so I'd I'd had a few races ex race experiences where, previously, what I'd do is I cut out these things called Pro Plus, which are caffeine pills, and I'd cut us put tuck a strip beneath my watch and during the race then pop those. And they were all quite frustrating and bitty. Then I was racing through the Sahara Desert and reached for my pill, popped it, and actually lost it in the sand, which is when I had that moment of, like, surely there there must be a product that is out there that you don't have to take a gel to get the caffeine, particularly if I was doing tempo runs, interval sessions, or even at the end of long runs when I was tired. I didn't wanna take a gel just to get that kick because you just don't need carbohydrates for those distances.

Guest [00:12:10]: And that's when I did a Kickstarter and started researching into the science behind caffeine, and it it then made sense to do a chew because you then got, buccal and sublingual absorption. But, also, I've I've been doing startups for a while. I at the time, I was, had cofounded a business called ZipCube dotcom, which was Airbnb for meeting rooms, which is still going in Europe. I don't think it's it's it's not been so successful. It's made it out to Canada. And so at that stage, it was we'd raised money. The company was doing well, but it was obvious that my founder and cofounder shouldn't be leading a business together. And so that's when I thought, actually, why don't I do something I really love rather than a startup for the sake of doing something because it's not a corporate job.

Guest [00:13:02]: And so, yeah, went all in on Caffeine Bullock, basically, and and haven't really looked back since. So, well, I haven't looked back, but I've looked back with very, very straight phrase. I've looked back loads. I've always looked back and loved it, thinking I'm over here. Yes. What what a good decision.

Cory Nagler [00:13:21]: Yeah. I I'm curious how I use them personally because, I often take them before my runs. I love getting that kick early morning before I go, and I find if I have a cup of coffee, it just kinda sloshes around. But it sounds like you actually enjoyed taking them mid run. So how is it that either when you were still racing world championships or even now that you like to use the product?

Guest [00:13:42]: Well, I because I, right now, I'm drinking a decaf coffee, and I would never take caffeine before races. I would if I was doing going for, like, a a track meet or a cross country. And if I was training, I'd typically take them in tempo runs to for me, I really like the way caffeine it gives you that surge. And so it's good for motivation. If I if I couldn't be asked to do a training session, that's when I'd take one to give me that that energized feeling to actually make sure I got out the door. But I'm I'd much rather start feeling my normal self and ease my way into a session or a tempo run knowing that I've got that kick to come. And for me, I that's what my preferred way of using Caffeine and Caffeine Bullet because particularly on I don't know if you've had training sessions where, say, you're doing a marathon program and you're you keep on increasing your tempo miles each week, and you come to dread the Thursday where you're thinking, I've got to do 8 miles at marathon pace now. And it you remember that 3 weeks ago, you were doing, like, 4 miles at marathon pace, and that was tough.

Guest [00:15:05]: So having the caffeine there that I wouldn't use it every week because it's good sometimes to train yourself to have to brute your way through it. But knowing that you've got that kick to come that could because it because it's absorbed so quickly, and it takes 5 minutes. And so it means you can start with confidence. And, actually, the second half gets exciting because you start you suddenly think, right. It's coming. It's coming. It's coming. And it I can you play I play a game where it's like, let's hold off for as long as we can, needing to take it.

Guest [00:15:40]: And it almost ekes out. It it makes the session go past faster. But then when it comes, it's almost like you're in the Fast and the Furious. You press that button. You're like, right. Well, let's watch this clock. It's time to absolutely kick and blow the blow the bloody doors off this thing. So I I typically use it like that.

Guest [00:15:57]: If I was going off for a run run a long run, I'd have it in my back pocket more as a just in case, so I can't be arsed or if if actually I'm just a bit more tired than possible. But racing, I'd I'd use it 5 5 k PB. I had 1 maybe 15 minutes before, 1, kinda half a mile in to get that step change. But something like the ultra marathon, Comrades Ultra, where it's 90 kilometers or 92 kilometers, 4000 meters up to down sorry. It's 4 down to up. I that's where I changed it again because you you always wanna be layering your caffeine, so you're increasing the dose or the you're increasing the amount in your system. And so I actually started off. I didn't take any, and I'd only have it when I was starting to feel tired or marathon in a marathon, when you start to lose pace, which sometimes, you know, if you're if it's going badly, that could be 14 miles.

Guest [00:16:56]: Sometimes it could be 18, 90 miles. And so because it's it's quick to respond, it means that you you don't actually have to tie yourself to a strategy. You can use it responsibly. And, and that's when I'd have, like in in in Comrades, I'd have a half, then I'd have 1, then I'd have an a one slightly closer, and then I'd finish with 2. I wouldn't recommend everyone does that because it's that's a lot of caffeine. But and and it's it's so personal to your absorption rate and what you're used to as well, your tolerance. So that's typically how I'd use it throughout my training, my racing. But I know some people who've had I won't say the amount on on air because it's it's an irresponsible amount, but who've done I think it's called the great, Elgin canal race in the UK, Birmingham to London, I think, where they took 3 times the amount I'd normally recommend people take, but then it took them hours.

Guest [00:17:54]: And so it's, yeah, it's that's that's probably why I'm I'm here to explain about caffeine because it's so individual to people that there is no right way, because we all respond so differently.

Cory Nagler [00:18:10]: Yeah. There's definitely no right way. I do like that idea of keeping it almost as, like, either a a fail safe if things are going wrong or that that extra little kick even if things are going well and you're the finish. Yeah. Completely. Because

Guest [00:18:25]: caffeine, it stimulates the most people know about the mind and not necessarily the body. And so you can use it for the physical effects. And, physiologically, what it does is it's, it reduces well, it in the liver, it releases fat cells that can then be used as a fuel source. So that's useful because it then preserves your glycogen stores, and so, actually, it increases endurance by up to 6%. But it does a whole host of other things as well, where it acts like an endorphin, acts like and and and it acts like adrenaline as well. And so it reduces the perception of pain. It it reduces the perception of fatigue. And both those things mean you can actually push harder for longer.

Guest [00:19:20]: Most people know that it increase alertness as well and, and focus. And so all these elements act in different ways at different times for for people. And so you can you can take caffeine to get that endurance early, or if you really want to get that mental push, that's when you can use it in the second half of a race really effectively.

Cory Nagler [00:19:42]: David, I'd love to know about a very specific use case in part because I know you mentioned wanting to do or having done a a half marathon with a lot of beer involved. And I also happened to stumble onto your bio and noticed that you've actually pay placed at 12th in the beer mile world championships, which, as as a Canadian, I know a thing or 2 about because we tend to place highly. But I'd love to know how does caffeine interact with beer, and is that something that you would recommend?

Guest [00:20:10]: I should have to think if I know much about that. I don't think it actually interacts with alcohol per se. Or if it does, I've not seen many studies on it. And, but I know that when when someone has a drunk, for example, on their hands, they're often given caffeine and think that that will help with hangover or that will actually sober them up. It won't. It will just give you a a more energized drunk, which might be what you need to get them moving so that they're not falling asleep in the nightclub. But, it's I I'm sure it does have an in an impact in some way, but it's not something I've I've, studied extensively. I was trying to convince the founder of BrewDog to do a partnership with us for a a caffeine bullet beer, but there's quite heavy restrictions on alcohol and caffeine together in the UK because of, it it kind of it's like rocket fuel combining the 2.

Guest [00:21:12]: But but the the interesting thing about and and partly that's because of the way caffeine and sugar interplays, and that's something people do need to be really aware of. And what caffeine can do what what it does is it it also increases your insulin response. And so most people know about sugar crashes, where you take on sugar, your insulin shoots up, and that then brings down your blood sugar levels. Now if you're taking a strong dose of caffeine, it shoots up your insulin as well. The chances are you're probably using gels anyway, so you've already got that spike. So if you then start taking caffeine and stop taking carbohydrates when you're racing, what we often see is that people have this big sugar crash as well because the the combination of insulin spike. And one of the the challenges with taking gels is being able to take it all the way through the end of the race. But also, caffeine, typically, you take more at the end of the race as well.

Guest [00:22:16]: And so it's it's essential that you even if you don't feel like you need carbohydrates, once you've taken caffeine, that you actually continue taking whatever your carbohydrate source is because you're then likely to have a not really a caffeine crash. Most caffeine crashes are actually sugar crashes, but that can happen pretty badly in things like ultra races, but also longer marathon well, not longer marathons, longer lasting marathons if you're not managing to top up your energy source.

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Cory Nagler [00:25:01]: Yeah. I like that you brought up the idea of using them in tandem with gels, because I think a lot of runners know about the idea of needing to top up your glycogen stores and get more carbohydrates as you run. But I'm curious about the concept of taking in more caffeine during the run, and this was actually a conversation I had recently with a friend, because we both really love the product, is the idea of, do you need to take more caffeine if you're running more? Obviously, you don't burn it off the same way as you do carbohydrates, but do you have a greater tolerance, or should you be upping your caffeine intake for a longer run? What are what are your thoughts

Guest [00:25:33]: on that? Yes. So caffeine is is such a weird drug. It's it's basically got a half life, which is the the length that stays in your system. So the best if you think of a curve of how strong a dose it is in your in your system, if you're swallowing caffeine, studies have shown that drinks, pills, gels typically start to kick in 50 minutes. They'll peak at about up to 55 minutes, and then they'll last at that peak from 45 minutes to an hour. And so if you're having a coffee or taking a caffeine pill before you race, you wanna be taking it quite early so that you then get that peak during the time you need it. If you're chewing caffeine or if you're taking something sublingually like a strip, that curve is accelerated. So it starts to kick in kind of 5, 10 minutes.

Guest [00:26:31]: It peaks in 25, and it will then stay at a similar level for, the kind of 45 minutes in an hour. So when you're racing, you can you've got that 45 minute window of of peak caffeine. But if you're racing for longer than 45 minutes, then you actually you obviously wanna ensure that you can extend that for as long as possible. Now the way the body works, one of the ways it keeps you alert is by caffeine is the same shape as a chemical called adenosine. And adenosine, when it attaches to your brain, makes you feel sleepy. And so it blocks adenosine attaching to your brain. And so when caffeine starts to wear off and leaves your system, you still got all this adenosine built up and it then almost floods back in. So you need to, you need to keep your your caffeine level topped up to stop that happening, but and and the frustrating thing about scientific studies, there have actually been scientific research on dual doses of caffeine.

Guest [00:27:41]: But everything I've seen in performance of the athletes we've monitored, you need to increase the level of dose of, of caffeine to get that extended effect. So if you take a cup of coffee of a 100 milligrams and you your your second coffee never feels the same during the day, and the same when you're racing. So, actually, you you need to increase the level of dosage you have in your system to be able to keep on firing in the way you are. You can do that potentially by having the same dose of caffeine, but in a shorter time period. So we've said it's 45 minutes to an hour to peak. So if you're having within 45 minutes the same dose of caffeine, actually, that's gonna mean that those peaks overlap and say you you increase the total level of caffeine in your system. One thing to so so so when I would race, I'd always have a an approximate caffeine strategy of, say, it was Caffeine Bullet. I'd have a marathon.

Guest [00:28:44]: I'd have one at maybe miles 16 to 18, and then I'd have 1 or 2 when I was either next feeling tired or thinking I'm close enough to home. I just wanna close this out with, like, a hard finish. And same with vultures, I'd think of ways of increasing dosage. And same with your gels. If you've got something like a a Goo gel, which is 30 milligrams, 50 milligrams, just think about how often you can take those and you will take those, and think of those curves adding up. Are you gonna have enough caffeine to see through to the finish, or not? Is it increasing the doses? So don't start with your strongest caffeine. But and that's the challenge of gels and of of, energy chews is that people tend to take on less and less carbohydrates as they race. And so if you've got the same caffeine source, it means you're actually gonna take on less and less caffeine.

Guest [00:29:38]: Because even though we all think, I'll take 6 gels for the race, the the 6th one is the one you don't take. You always take that first one. Something else to note as well is the optimal dose of caffeine is massive. And so studies have shown over 50 studies have shown the optimal dose is between 36 milligrams of caffeine per kilo that you weigh, which is huge. So for someone like myself, that's 210 milligrams as a bottom up to double that, 420. I found for myself around 5 milligrams is my optimal dose. That's, like, 210. That's 3 cans of Red Bull.

Guest [00:30:19]: It's it's it's a crazy amount, really. So we're not gonna do that when we're training. We we might not even do that in our a races. The good news is that studies have also shown that 1 milligram is what it takes for an ergogenic effect. And so ergogenic means a a a a sporting effect in essence. And so when you're racing, have that in mind. Whatever you weigh in kilograms, that is the level of caffeine that you'll need to get actually a decent kick. So if you look at things like, say, a a pack of shot blocks, you need to have a whole pack of shot blocks, maybe even more to to get to that effect.

Cory Nagler [00:30:59]: Some gels, if you've got the 30 milligram, 50 milligram gels, they're not gonna get you there. So you you're gonna you've you've got to think about layering those to to get to your minimum dose to get the proper responsive effect you need. So it's it's quite mathematical if you start analyzing it. Something else to bear in mind as well, it's where this is where it becomes super complex. That half life. So we've talked about it stays in your bloodstream at a high level for an hour or 45 minutes to an hour. And the half life is after that amount of time, you then got half the dose of caffeine that you took at the beginning in your system. So say you took 1, 2, a 100 milligrams, the half life for most people is 4 to 5 hours.

Guest [00:31:47]: Because it's students in the system quicker, we'd take that off the front end, so you're looking at, like, 3 and a half, 4 and a half hours. So in 4 hours' time, you still got 50 milligrams of caffeine in your system. Now for some people, that none of this is true because 10% of people or it was actually 8% in a, a metadata study of a study of studies don't respond to caffeine at all. And if that's you, you shouldn't take it. You actually slow down. 50% respond super responders. Everyone else is above placebo. And so the absorption rate and also the the rate at which you burn through your caffeine differs depending on those groups.

Guest [00:32:32]: And so for some people, that's why they could take caffeine and go to bed. Some people, they'll be up all night because the half life of caffeine is so varied, and that kind of 4 to 5 hours is the average. Now if, for example, you're on the contraception pill, that doubles the time of the half life of caffeine. I don't know what it does to the absorption rate, but that means you're far less likely to sleep if you're taking caffeine and you're on the pill. If you smoke, however, not many runners do, it, halfs the time of your absorption rate. And various other drugs and various other factors also interplay with it. And so this is where it becomes incredibly complex, which which is why we say before you race, you know, most people know to to test their gels, but actually test your caffeine and test it in different doses. Because until you've done that, it's very hard to know what the impact is, of repeat dosage or or how quickly it's gonna get out of your system.

Guest [00:33:33]: And and, actually, unless you know that, it's gonna limit how much you use it in your training because while it's it is a huge performance benefit, if it affects your sleep too much, that is obviously gonna have an impact on the rest of your training. So you need to to balance that out with should you do your tempo runs, your long runs in the morning, so then you could take caffeine, so then you can perform better and still sleep. Because if you're doing a track Tuesday, you're probably not gonna take a huge amount of caffeine if it takes a long time to get out of your system. So all of those things are are quite important to, to factor in. We've talked about, tolerant well, we haven't talked about tolerance either. Those receptors in your mind that get clogged with adenosine or get clogged with caffeine to stop adenosine flushing in. The more caffeine you take, the more receptors your brain then grows. So that because it wants to be tired when it's tired because it needs to sleep.

Guest [00:34:34]: So the more caffeine we take in our lives, actually, the greater the tolerance we build up. From what I've seen of various studies, I still think you get the some of the physiological effects and the release of the fat cells from the liver even if you have a tolerance built up because they've looked at the impact on, on caffeine withdrawal or not. Long term caffeine withdrawal in Ironman athletes, and they showed that there was still a huge benefit to those who didn't withdraw at all versus those that did. But the the less caffeine you have in your life, the more the impact of when you take caffeine, which is why I always have decaf coffee. And we actually say as a company, you should be weirdly taking less caffeine in your life, but probably more caffeine when you race. So, but the less you have in your life, the the more the caffeine you take will, impact when you do take it. Oh, that was a long answer to to a question. Hope I it's that's the thing.

Guest [00:35:39]: It's such a fascinating topic, and it's most people don't understand all these different elements to be able to then figure out how to build into their training.

Cory Nagler [00:35:48]: And I think it's so nuanced because it's so personalized. I like that you comment on the fact that you're drinking decaf coffee because I do think it makes total sense when you explain it, but it does seem initially like a contradiction. One thing that I'd be curious to know your thoughts on is the idea of, like, a caffeine taper. Because you talk about how you build up this tolerance, and maybe the effects are less as you drink less. So for those who haven't heard of a caffeine taper, the the general principle is that you kinda lower your caffeine intake gradually, leading to a raise the same way you would mileage so that in principle, the effect is greater when you get to your raise. Is that something that you practice, or do you think it's better to make sure that you're you're keeping a stable level of caffeine in your runs?

Guest [00:36:31]: I mean, I I don't need to practice it because I'll be tapering anyway. And because I drink decaf coffee, I'm not doing intense trading before like, a few days before the marathon anyway or before my big race. And so but, naturally, I won't be taking caffeine. There's been mixed studies on this. There's been mixed suggestions on the right thing to do. And, but also it depends how much caffeine is part of your life because for some people, they love coffee and they're just gonna continue drinking coffee because it's great, which is fair enough. If you're someone who is, you know, a heavy caffeine user, heavy coffee drinker, withdrawing can actually give you withdrawal symptoms and give you headaches or act interrupt your your sleep. So if if that is you, then you shouldn't cut it out.

Guest [00:37:22]: You should just keep on doing what you're doing because losing too much sleep was gonna have more of a negative impact in the buildup. But, one study, the one I mentioned with the Ironman, it it it showed that while there was 2 control groups, one that cut out caffeine in the buildup and one that didn't, the one that didn't cut it out still saw a massive benefit from using caffeine. And so you don't have to cut it out and and still gain some of its power. They didn't actually analyze the differences in in in why that was. My how I'd interpreted it is that the the response for the liver and some of the, adrenaline response would be similar, but probably the mental response wouldn't be quite as strong. If you're trying to cut caffeine out of your system, it takes, for most people, 4 days for it to completely leave your system. If you're trying to reverse some of the the long term changes that regular caffeine, instills in the in the body, that takes around 2 weeks at least to happen. And so if if you're really wanting to get the full response, then 2 weeks is the period you should cut it out.

Guest [00:38:45]: But, actually, if you love coffee and caffeine, I'd say 4 days is is a good a good, a good time. Something else to bear in mind is that it's incredibly hard to know how much caffeine is in a coffee. And so that's why I'd suggest to people cutting out caffeine before you race because even one bean from the same plant in a field will have a different amount of caffeine because of the amount of sun it's received. But, also, when you take that bean, how long it's dried for, how long it's, roasted for, how thin thinly it's ground for, the pressure it goes through the cup. All these things have a massive impact on the strength of that coffee. And so you can see some coffees having 3 times the strength of others. And and even in the same shop, like, huge variety. And so that doesn't matter so much in your day to day life, if you have morning coffees.

Guest [00:39:52]: But actually, if you're having coffee in the build up to your race and you just go into you're likely to be travelling, you go into a different store or different type of coffee, then you you might be taking on something that is is actually double, triple strength than what you're used to. And so it's almost a defensive move to cut out caffeine for me and coffee for me, for those reasons.

Cory Nagler [00:40:20]: And I think it's also one of the advantages of a a product like Caffeine Bullet or or even gels that do have caffeine is it's a very measured dose. Even within the Caffeine Bullet products, I noticed you have, ginger roars is one of them. They're kind of a ginger flavored chew, and they they have I think it's something like 30 or 40 milligrams compared to the higher dose of the, the other chew. So I like using those for kind of shorter or more intense runs or when I don't need as strong as a kick, and I like having that ability to kinda measure out how much of that caffeine effect you're getting.

Guest [00:40:52]: Yeah. And and those are actually the idea behind that partly because in fact, those are because of Canada completely. I've just just realized When I was filming the Oscar Race World Champs in Canada, I tried the the ginger chews that is it gingins, I think, or something similar.

Cory Nagler [00:41:12]: Ginger roars. Is that right?

Guest [00:41:14]: The so the the the normal cheese in a in Canada. So ginger Roars is the caffeine bullet ones, but, I I tried these ginger chews. I thought it was delicious. And then when I looked into it, because because of the high level of gingerol, which is the active ingredient in ginger, it's it's actually great for, flushing the stomach, where high levels of ginger mean that it transports carbohydrates faster through your intestines and your stomach. And so when you race, that's why well, even when you don't race, that's why ginger is a great stomach settler. So the idea behind the ginger roars is that at the point that you often want caffeine is often when you your stomach's gone. And so for things like Ultra races or for, well, if you're using them when you're racing, for things like Ultras, they're great because you can nibble on 1. It settles your stomach, but also it gives you a little dose.

Guest [00:42:10]: And unlike Comrades, as I said, the first dose I had, I didn't wanna have a 100 milligrams of caffeine because if I was then to layer up and I have to keep on stacking on top of that, I'd end up taking way too much caffeine, for for my for my need. And so starting with a lower dose actually then meant I could layer more steps. But also quite often I found when you go out for a a long run, you don't you don't necessarily want to be in PB territory, like smashing the doors off 6, 5 minute miles or or whatever it is. You just need a little top up to get you home. And so that's the idea of having just something a bit more gentle that's it gives you a a lift, but you're not gonna be there with your heart beating out your chest.

Cory Nagler [00:43:01]: Yeah. I I'm not sure if this is exactly what you mean, but oftentimes, like, if I have an unsettled stomach or something or just need to, you know, something that's easy to digest, I'll have a ginger ale. It's like a kind of pot that has some ginger in it, and I find it does kinda sit well.

Guest [00:43:16]: But we we we're bringing out at the moment, we're developing a a gel, a Morton style gel, but based off ginger so that it you you'd almost have it in your arsenal where you'd have it as your 6th or 7th or 4th or 5th depending on your gel strategy just so that it it eases your stomach a bit. Because one of the harshest things is you we all know, running stomach. Right? And, having something that actually helps you mid race would be, with a different flavor profile as well is is the idea behind it.

Cory Nagler [00:43:52]: So aside from adding ginger, what are your thoughts on being able to fit in caffeine into a training program without some of the GI upset? Because I know that that's a common ops or a common obstacle when taking in caffeine, and it's something that I personally have really struggled with. And that's one of the reasons I appreciate Caffeine Bullet is I've I found, at least as of yet, that they sit really well.

Guest [00:44:12]: Yeah. I mean, some people just will always have issues with caffeine because they their body doesn't respond to it. Some people have stomach issues with caffeine, and it's slightly different. So, one of the if you because a lot of the caffeine is not absorbed in your stomach, it means for some athletes, they can suddenly take caffeine. But, some some athletes will just never be able to take it in any form, sadly, which is it's real disadvantage. So even if you're that 10% of people that don't respond to caffeine, there's a chance you're never gonna win the Olympics or wait. What? Maybe the Olympics because it's not necessarily the fastest runner. But, but, yeah, it's that's one of the reasons as as why why we like this absorption mechanism because it does bypass the stomach with a lot of the caffeine.

Guest [00:45:05]: You'll still swallow some of it. So if you're in if you're incredibly sensitive to caffeine, some will go through your stomach because you do still swallow some. But it should hopefully be a bit easier for people as well. The the only challenge is because it's absorbed so quickly, if you do have an issue with it, no matter how it gets into your system, in essence, you're concertina ing all of your caffeine dose instead of a coffee flowing through your stomach and being absorbed as the 300 milliliters is absorbed, this is all in your 5:5 minutes. And so it's it's super fast and impactful, but if if you don't respond to caffeine and never will, you're just gonna get that faster in a more pronounced way. So, it's we you know, I'm not saying it's the absolute cure for everyone, but, again, you've gotta try these things to to to figure out and see what works for you. And and and, sadly, some people just won't ever be able to take caffeine.

Cory Nagler [00:46:06]: And I and I did notice you said you're coming out with, a gel upcoming that will will have caffeine and ginger in it as well. But it it was also part of your founding story that you you found you wanted something that isolated the caffeine with without the energy. What are some of your thoughts on different forms of of caffeine, be it chews or gels or coffee or gum or or other products? And do they work together, or is one better than the other? Would be curious to know if if if you think that runners benefit from just finding one that works for them or or using different, strategies in tandem. Yeah.

Guest [00:46:41]: I I mean, it's so much of nutrition is about what you like, and it it it very much depends on the nature of the race, though. Because if you're an ultra runner, quite often you wanna have a selection of of flavors and of nutrition just because you just never know how you're gonna be feeling. And and even, like, Courtney D'Alta when when she do in February, she was saying that she'll nail in nutrition and suddenly the next the next race, she won't she won't want that. So I think she had pizza at one of them and it's she thought it was delicious and then suddenly she couldn't stomach it. And and so having variety is always useful. I'd what I would say for is is always just think about the the profile of how long it takes to absorb because it it you you would use it in a different way. And so your gums and your chews, you know you can use far more responsibly because if you're halfway through a race and you start to tire, you can still take them. And you know that you're not gonna lose, you know, a mile or 2 dying out your ass while you're waiting for it to kick in.

Guest [00:47:55]: And so if you are using gels, you need to schedule them in defensively, anticipating when you'll be tired, and then think about how long it takes for the kick to make sure that you're you are ensuring you ain't tired. We we're not actually gonna do a caffeine gel because I I I personally believe in separating them. And and that's partly because I've done races before where I've I've taken my gel, and then I've suddenly thought I need my caffeine now. And I've not been able to take it for another 20 minutes because I knew if I took an additional gel, it was gonna overload my stomach. And, and so I was suddenly stuck waiting for that all that time, and it was this horrible feeling because I just I I was just so frustrated that there was this there wasn't another option. The I I think the reality though of things like gels is you you're never gonna use it for a 5 k, for a 1500 meters. Probably never gonna use it for a track session, for a tempo session. You might use it for a long run, but actually it still feels quite weird to to take out on a training run.

Guest [00:49:07]: And so that's where having a gum or a strip or, or, you know, if you're a cyclist stopping for coffee, nothing more delightful. So I'd I'd I'd I'd definitely think it's good to have variety. And particularly if you're doing longer runs in your layering, it's good to have just different flavor profiles to, so you don't get sick of 1. But I I think there are many good sources of caffeine, but for me, it's just not gels. I just don't think they're responsive. And, actually, it's the the most likely thing you're not gonna consume in a race.

Cory Nagler [00:49:48]: When you say it's the most likely thing to not consume in a race, is that just because of the stomach upset and trying to get in the extra calories, or is is there another issue you see with putting caffeine in gels?

Guest [00:49:59]: It's it's not putting the caffeine in the gel that's the issue. I I think it's more that because you take caffeine at the end of the race, that's when you're more likely to have the stomach issue, but also you've you've got flavor burn. And it's only really since Morton came out, the neutral flavor's been a a concept, and they're still not that neutral. They're still pretty sweet. And so that's if you're if you're linking your caffeine to an experience that you've already had 6 of or 7 of, that's the danger. It's that you you may not want another one of those things, whatever it may be. If, you know, if you were having 20 chews that was like Starburst chews and you then had a caffeine bullet, that would be exactly the same thing. Or if you were using chewing gum for your energy, some magical chewing gum sauce, you know, I'd I'd say the same.

Guest [00:50:52]: Or if you were drinking all your calories and you then had a caffeine drink, it it would be that same issue. But having an alternative mechanism of caffeine, I think, is extremely useful.

Cory Nagler [00:51:07]: You you talk about Morton being kind of a more neutral flavor. And I noticed even for the Caffeine Bullet flavors, they they're they're quite good tasting. You have the the mint and the, chocolate orange, I I believe, but they they do on the side of neutral. Do you do you have any plans to add new flavors or anything that that's really bold or or different?

Guest [00:51:26]: We've we've we've tried in fact, I've got, I I don't know, I it's just good or bad to turn around. We've got boxes and stuff behind me. I'm real trouble with my wife. And you can see them there in the corner. One of the troubles is we just can't find anything that works because caffeine's brutally bitter. And if you if you've ever had a, like, a really bad coffee, really bad espresso, that bitterness there is that's the caffeine. But, also, we we taste it so differently that some people almost find it deafeningly loud, the taste of caffeine bitterness. And so, I keep if you look at some of our reviews, you know, most people think the chocolate orange is, you know, unbelievably tasty, but some people just think it taste of ass because they they can't turn off they well, they they they're basically supertasters.

Guest [00:52:23]: They'd be very good wines from Melies. And so we've always tried we we've had to create products with reviews in mind knowing that it's it's the one it's not the number of 5 star reviews that make you a success. It's the lack of 1 star reviews, on things like Amazon now. So we've, we've tried and we've tried. We've not actually we've got some brain bullets coming out in about a month and a half time, But their the intention of those is so there'll be different places. The intention of those is they're not sporting. They've got healthy and in, and they're very much more for focus. So those are Caramental and they're a a mental mint matcha.

Guest [00:53:11]: But the I think the only other flavor we found that worked was black, licorice and blackcurrants. But because North America don't have a relationship with licorice in the way Europe does, we didn't think it would be a a flavor worth launching. And we're yet to find something else that actually works well with it. If there's any scientists food scientists out there, the great thing about mint is it almost tricks the brain so that you're not listening to the caffeine. The good thing about the chocolate is that it's a a light chocolate, but it it then turns it into a dark chocolate with a bitterness. Your your mind almost thinks it's this, more adult chocolate than it is. So, we we just haven't had the ability to create something. So if if anyone's got an idea for something that you think would work or you found other flavors that go with caffeine in strong doses, then please please message me, david, at, well, one of my silver bullet at caffeinebullet.com.

Guest [00:54:16]: But, but, yeah, the the challenge is because we're putting so much caffeine into such a small vehicle, we just don't have the the flexibility to be able to succeed with many flavors, unfortunately.

Cory Nagler [00:54:37]: What would be curious to know on the flavor side, is there any flavor you've come up with that just utterly failed and and tasted disgusting? Or or maybe on the other side, is there anything maybe even if it hasn't been tried yet that you would love to see as a as a flavor even if it's just a concept?

Guest [00:54:53]: I mean, the flavors that don't work, there's there really are loads of them. Any fruit flavor just gets demolished by it. We've tried ginger. We've tried bitter lemon. We one that almost worked was like an apple apple custard crumble that we just kept on throwing extra things in, think seeing if it would twist it up. But, I mean, I I the I'm always trying to get in the headspace of what it's like, what you want when you're at mile 18 or 17. So you almost want something completely different to all the other flavors out there. And that's that's the real challenge is what's different.

Guest [00:55:39]: I've always loved Tork Gels, and they have things like, cherry yogurt. And, so but for me, I think cheesecake is my favorite thing on Earth. So or even, like, lasagna. Like, it I don't know how it could work, but I think something super savory could be great in a gel if you if your mind could get in that headspace, like chips and gravy. I don't know if that's a well, for you guys, like, potine would be amazing. Like, getting potine and grates. Is it called potine? The Canadian

Cory Nagler [00:56:16]: Poutine or, yeah. If if you say it the Quebecois way, where they speak more French, they they kinda put an emphasis on it. It's poutine.

Guest [00:56:24]: Poutine. So, like, a poutine kind of flavor would be, with loads of umami. That would be incredible to do. I I don't know how popular it would be outside of Canada. Maybe in the north of England, they love chips and gravy. So I

Cory Nagler [00:56:41]: was gonna say even these flavor suggestions, this this feels like a very trail runner mindset to gravitate towards something savory or salty because it's it's more a road runner on shorter shorter races. I feel like it's always something sweet. So for a Canadian flavor, I was gonna say if you did a maple syrup one, I feel like that could be quite tasty.

Guest [00:56:59]: Yeah. Absolutely. We, yeah, we were thinking of doing a caramel maple syrup, combination for for one of our chews. And, again, it's sadly, the sweetness doesn't overcome the bitterness. It it just makes a sweet bitter. It's like pouring sugar into that burnt coffee. It's it's not as bad, but you can't escape the pain.

Cory Nagler [00:57:29]: I I I'm intrigued by the whole idea of it. It's, there there's so many interesting flavors of, of gels out there. I'd love to see that make its way into into other different types of supplements.

Guest [00:57:40]: Yeah. Absolutely. And and you're right. Like, trail running flavors are are more varied because you you you can't have that flavor. You you can't allow flavor burn to to to persist for so long. But I I do get the sense that the next generation of products are now trying to almost be a little bit wacky or a little bit unusual, trying to get people's attention. And so we've had, like, shandies and things like that as flavors. We you obviously saw the the awesome sauce that was really big in spring energy until a controversy came out about the the lack of carbs in it, but it does feel like people are now trying to make real food food flavors rather than make it more a flavor that we associate with candy.

Cory Nagler [00:58:29]: Yeah. But before we wrap up, I'd be curious, and maybe flavor is one of them, but even aside from that, are there any other innovations in the supplement space that you would love to see?

Guest [00:58:41]: Well, I mean, we've got we've got a massive amount of them coming out in the next, well, few years. We we're hoping to bring out an electrolyte chew, a heavily electrolyte chew that is it's almost like as good as pickle juice, but in a chew form. There's there's we we we have got one product we're trying to develop, but we can't get the flavor right for, I can't say too much about it because it will reveal too much, but, like, an AG one, athletics green. The the bicarb thing by Morton's brilliant. The fact they've managed to master that is is really quite impressive. But there are quite a few studies out there still that haven't been fully researched yet. I think one of the challenges is that the scientific studies are, often when they find something, it it's quite hard to to believe the paper itself because the numbers of people involved are so small. And also if it's only been found to be true in one paper, often it then comes down to, do you trust this academic who obviously, it's wonderful if they can find something to be really positive.

Guest [00:59:57]: The beetroot nitrates is obviously potentially massively influential on athletes who aren't quite elite level. Doesn't seem to do the same for elite, but we're we're hoping to do something in that area as well because it's such an easy gain for people. If they're if you're not training kind of 70 plus miles a week, then it's almost certainly gonna help your performance. But there there do seem to be a lot of a lot of potential avenues that still needs research. But for me, actually, what I'd love to see, when we become bigger, is to actually have scientific studies on repeat doses of caffeine because even what I've said is based off the experience I've been exposed to through the brand and through the athletes I've worked with or or or kind of raised alongside or commentated alongside. But there haven't been studies in how caffeine, how it's best used in repeat doses. You know, we've talked about that optimal caffeine rate, but that's just a one hit of caffeine. And so I'd love to be able to do tests on that.

Guest [01:01:13]: I'd love to also to be able to do tests on the understanding when we have the caffeine withdrawal or not and the the caffeine fast. Why is it that one study shows it's beneficial and one doesn't? And they they both look like good studies. And, like, what is being able to actually research the different ways it does impact you on those? But, yeah, I I think there are some some quite cool potential findings around the corner, that and and, actually, now that there's so many more brands out there, I think the big difference we'll find the next 5, 10 years is that suddenly all the the nutrition that was only available to those elites that went out and searched it and almost created it for themselves will be coming to the mass market pretty quickly. And as as soon as a study is released that as as interesting findings, you know, I know we read everything. And we're thinking, right, how can we improve on this? So it's as with all things now with shoes, with it does seem that the general public will be able to live the elite lifestyle, very quickly.

Cory Nagler [01:02:28]: Yeah. I think a lot of those are super super cool ideas. The idea of being able to get a lot of your electrolytes or the nitrates from beet root just from a quick chew without having to take massive amount of

Guest [01:02:39]: liquids is an absolute game changer. Yeah. I mean, I've I've sat in a toilet in Afghanistan just for, like, a day and a half while still eating 200 grams of beetroot because I was racing the next day, like or having to I I I'm I'm sure we've got listeners who've had to drink a pint of beetroot extracts to try and get the correct level of nitrates before those little shot bottles came out, and and knows what it does to your body. It's, it's it's it's not always worth it.

Cory Nagler [01:03:13]: Yeah. I've I've had some mixed experiences with those, so not sure I could recommend them.

Guest [01:03:20]: But, yeah, I mean, the this is why this is the fun part of the job is thinking how can we create something that actually is is gonna be usable, not just theoretically helpful, but actually something that day to day people can use. So, yeah, any ideas if you've in fact, we're talking to a very good old Tron at the moment who's got some some very interesting ideas about new gels. And, you know, if you do have an idea and you come to us, we're we'll make it for you. And, you know, we'll we'll trial it, all that stuff. So do get in touch because we're just we're we're partly doing it because, we just find it exciting. But, also, my friends are athletes. We're all runners. My community is athletes.

Guest [01:04:05]: It's just amazing to see things that help people. And, actually, selling new personal best is inspiring and motivating, and and all of that helps with that that challenge of being healthy for life, basically.

Cory Nagler [01:04:19]: Well, David, I have to say your your product definitely is something that I use on a day to day basis and has definitely been a huge help. So for for everyone listening, if if they wanna learn more about yourself, your product, anything like that, where can they find more information?

Guest [01:04:33]: Well, I'm I'm actually terrible at socials. So you can listen to our podcast. We've got something like 500 episodes. But there's half of them are interviews, half of them are chat about our day to day. I have caffeinebullet.com. Our socials are very funny. Our Instagram, Casey, super fun, but we do bring educational content there as well. And, you can always you'll find me on socials.

Guest [01:05:00]: I just don't post anything, but I I do read messages. So feel free to drop me an Instagram or search a message Bad Boy Running podcast.

Cory Nagler [01:05:08]: Perfect. Yeah. And we'll definitely link all that in the show notes. If anyone wants to either comment in Spotify or message you directly with any new flavor ideas, it sounds like they're welcome to do so. I'll definitely, throw in as well for anyone listening. If you wanna use the promo code run to the top, I believe that gets them 20% off as well. So awesome incentive.

Guest [01:05:27]: Yeah. And and, hopefully, you would and and will help support the, the community and the podcast and, everything you guys are about as well. So, yeah, that's if you are gonna buy, buy using that. And, it it means you're supporting the community that have been great great enough to get us on here. So thank you very much for having us, Corey. It's been really fun.

Cory Nagler [01:06:04]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm the showrunner at Runners Connect, where as always, our mission is to help you become a better runner with every episode. You can connect with me on Instagram at Corey underscore Nagler. Worth your strap up by searching Corey Nagler, and please consider connecting with the rest of our team at runnersconnect.net. If you're loving the show, you can help us reach more runners by leaving a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcast. Lastly, if you want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with guests, and premier access to contests, and consider subscribing to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netforward/podcast. I'll see you on the next show. But until then, happy running, everyone.