Overcoming Marathon Bonking: A Peek Inside a Coaching Call

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Michael Hammond [00:00:41]: Alright, Steve. Let's talk about your training heading into Myrtle Beach. So, obviously, you have that tremendous 323 in October in Atlantic City. You're you're feeling good. You're feeling like you've got the momentum behind you, but you wanna you wanna step up to the next level. You wanna run 315. Let's talk let's dive into the training a little bit. Let's dive into I wanna go over a few specifics, but first will be just your general mile mileage progression.

Michael Hammond [00:01:04]: You mentioned to me that you got up to about 70 miles a week. But what was that progression like starting in about October when you ran that that 323? What was that progression like?

Guest [00:01:12]: Sure. Well, so I, you know, I knew I had to taper down taper, you know, after the run. I didn't wanna go immediately, you know, into, you know, into into the high mileage. So I, did a, you know, a proper taper after the race. Right? You know, just did a few walks and then started to, you know, the the following week started to go, get, do do a few short runs, you know, just, you know, really, not not intense, just, some casual runs and then just bringing up the miles. I saw it. You know, the the, I followed the classic 10% per week rule just getting up to the mileage. Right? So I think I, you know, maybe started that.

Michael Hammond [00:01:54]: Alright, Steve. Let's talk about your training heading into Myrtle Beach. So, obviously, you have that tremendous 323 in October in Atlantic City. You're you're feeling good. You're feeling like you've got the momentum behind you, but you wanna you wanna step up to the next level. You wanna run 315. Let's talk let's dive into the training a little bit. Let's dive into I wanna go over a few specifics, but first will be just your general mile mileage progression.

Michael Hammond [00:02:16]: You mentioned to me that you got up to about 70 miles a week. But what was progression like starting in about October when you ran that that 323? What was that progression like?

Guest [00:02:25]: Sure. Well so I, you know, I knew I had to taper taper, you know, after the run. I didn't wanna go immediately, you know, into, you know, into into the high mileage. So I, did a, you know, a proper taper after the race. Right? You know, just did a few walks and then started to, you know, the the following week started to go, get, do do a few short runs, you know, just, you know, really, not not intense, just, some casual runs and then just bringing up the miles. I saw it. You know, the the, I followed the classic 10% per week rule just getting up to the mileage. Right? So I think I, you know, maybe started at a baseline of maybe 15 miles or something, and then just started building up from there.

Guest [00:03:06]: So by the time by December or so, I think then I was up to around 50 or 60 miles and then hitting hitting January though. I was right into the, the hardest of the training anyways, volume wise. So it was right up at, you know, between 60 70 miles. You know, I was following a, you know, so, you know, block years out of, you need to, that's one of these cookie cutter plans out of a book. I bought a book. I guess maybe I won't say the name of the book. It's a good book, and it just, and it has a lot of training plans in it depending on the number of miles that you wanna run. And it's a mixture of, of runs, you know, the thresholds and, long runs and feed runs and and that sort of that sort of thing.

Guest [00:03:47]: You know, kind of a classic, training plan. And, and I just so I just followed that once I got up to, once I got up to the up to the miles I wanted to to hit.

Michael Hammond [00:03:56]: Okay. So that's your mileage progression. Let's talk about some of those workouts. So give me a couple of examples of, like, a like, what would a threshold workout look like once you were kind of hitting that those higher mileage weeks in January or so?

Guest [00:04:08]: Yeah. So it would be a a a 2 mile warm up, and then, and then I'd get right into it. And, you know, a threshold is, I I suppose by definition, you know, the the, the fastest pace you can hold for 40 5 minutes or so. Right? So that's what I would, that's what I would, that's what I do. I'd I'd, just hold that that fast pace for me. It's, you know, just under under 7 minutes a mile or so, and, and just hold that for for however many miles that the this particular run, all for.

Michael Hammond [00:04:41]: And how long would that typically be?

Guest [00:04:43]: Trying to recall without having the, workouts in front of me, it was probably for it wouldn't be for time. It was always a mileage based plan. So, I think, 10, you know, maybe maybe 10 miles.

Michael Hammond [00:04:59]: 10 miles at like, so you do so a 2 mile warm up, 10 miles at that type of pace?

Guest [00:05:04]: Yeah. Maybe between I I'm sure it wasn't, it wasn't it wasn't less than, say, 7, and I think that would vary. So, you know, the the number of miles at that threshold pace. But, I wanna say they were anywhere between, you know, 6 and and 11 or 12 miles.

Michael Hammond [00:05:18]: At about that, like, 7 minutes pace thereabouts?

Guest [00:05:22]: Yeah. Okay.

Michael Hammond [00:05:22]: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Got it. Okay. So let's talk about some of the long runs. You know, I saw on your Strava, you got up to doing some 20 milers. But what were how what was your long run progression? How many of those long runs really long runs did you get roughly thereabouts heading into the race?

Guest [00:05:38]: Yeah. So every you know, the long runs were every Sunday. They would be anywhere between, 18 and 22 miles. So, I probably got in, you know, there's one 22 mile run, and then there was probably, half a dozen 20 mile runs.

Michael Hammond [00:05:56]: Okay. So there's your there's your threshold workouts. You're doing, like, a one big threshold workout per week, really those very long tempo type efforts, you know, 6 to 10, 11 miles. You're doing a big long run on the weekend. What about between that? How many days were you running per week on average, and and what were you doing on those other days per week? Sure.

Guest [00:06:13]: So it was sit running 6 days a week. Monday is, you know, the day after the long run was a recovery day. I would either, you know, honestly recover or, at most, I'd go to, you know, hit the gym for, you know, half an hour, 45 minutes or something. But, the other days were, you know, mix of runs. There'd be, recovery runs. A recovery run of, jeez, when I was doing those volumes, what was the the miles were, maybe the shortest run would be, like, a 5 mile recovery run. And, there'd be temple runs, you know, running at, you know, an 8 minute pace or so, or, you know, between 7:30 and 8 minutes for, you know, 10 miles. Wednesdays were the midweek long runs.

Guest [00:07:01]: So those would be about 15 mile. That was generally around 15 miles. So there'd be a midweek long run on, on Wednesdays of of around 15 miles. You know, and that was a, not a not at marathon pace. So it would it would be a little little little slower than that. So around the tempo pace. Yep. And then there would be some speed intervals.

Guest [00:07:24]: You know, do, for instance, you know, 800 meters, you know, 5 times or something like that at at a 5 k pace. Not too many hill runs. I like you know, there there that was the one thing that, that I wish there were, and the plan was something, you know, hitting the hills there. So, I tried to stay in the flats in my area.

Michael Hammond [00:07:47]: Got it. Got it. Okay. So that really rounds out what the training looked like heading in. We've got a good idea. That sounds like a lot of really hard training, so we'll we'll dissect that in a minute. But I do wanna talk about you had mentioned some stuff to me before about the taper and kinda like once you finish that really hard training block and went into what should be a nice comfortable taper, how were you feeling? What were think you know, how was your body feeling? Tell me about that experience.

Guest [00:08:11]: I think even if it didn't happen to be that that tapered block, I think I would have had to just, cut back because I I was beat. I was beat. Maybe I don't know if just stress, you know, from things going on and, you know, in in general life were were part of that or not. You know? But, but I just, my body was beat. I, I, I know on that last, I remember on the last long run, I got home. I came, I walked through this kitchen door and I just said, I am done. I don't even want to run this marathon. You know? So, but the, you know, the good thing was I had 3 weeks of, you know, of tapering down.

Guest [00:08:50]: So I was, I was happy about that. But during that taper, I just, I never really felt like I recovered. I just felt, my legs were just always sore, especially my glutes. My glutes were, were really the were taking the taking the beating there. And, you know, is yeah. So the taper, I mean, what did that look like? So I think if my peak was 70 miles, maybe that 1st week of the taper was in, you know, in the fifties, and then the 2nd week went to the forties. 3rd week, or I guess the week of the race, then it was it was really low, you know, 20 miles or so, not including the race itself. But the thing is, I I guess the so let me tell you, something else that was going on.

Guest [00:09:37]: So for the past year or more, I've been, dealing with plantar fasciitis on my, right foot. And so that was had really kicked in by the, you know, by the by the time the taper came around, my foot was starting to, bother me again, and I was afraid that, that that was gonna really become an issue. So I started so I did a lot of the runs on the treadmill. I guess that's an important thing to tell you. So and I never run on the treadmill. I hate treadmills. But I felt like, you know, I didn't wanna work so hard training for this and then, not be able to run it because, you know, of of the injuries. So I, did I did the runs on the treadmill, and, they felt different.

Guest [00:10:19]: I don't know if I was getting the same, you know, the same effort level on that treadmill as I am on the road. Hard to say. But, but but I I I guess the the thing is that that those those last 3 weeks looked very different from the regular training. Got it. Okay. Yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:10:37]: Yeah. No. That makes sense with the with the taper. I can tell. You know, it's it's one of those things where it's normal to feel a little bit tired heading into the taper, but it's not normal for the taper. The taper is supposed to fix that. The taper is supposed to alleviate that. So that's not really that's not that's not ideal.

Michael Hammond [00:10:52]: We'll talk about that in in a few minutes, but I wanna talk about just the last thing in terms of setting up kinda what, the the plan moving forward is the actual race itself, Myrtle Beach. Tell me about just just give me a, you know, give me a short synopsis of from the gun going off, how the race went, what that experience was like.

Guest [00:11:12]: Sure. You know, I thought I'd you know, I was, I've run enough of them where I was relaxed. I didn't feel too tense or anything like that. You know, I felt felt pretty good through the whole race at that. I think it was gonna be, between a 725 and yeah. Around a 725 average pace. So that's so right off the bat, I was just trying to hold 725. Around mile 6 or so, I could feel my you know, I started feeling the glutes.

Guest [00:11:38]: And I thought, this old this is too early to be, you know, feel it wasn't hurting, but I could just feel them. And I thought, that's probably not a good sign. And then, you know, as the the race progressed, it just, started feeling it more and more. I started, falling back. There happened to actually be a 315 Pacer there, which I was surprised, but, I was falling falling back from him and kept thinking to myself, I'll I'll I'll catch up in a minute. I'll catch up in a minute. But, just kept falling further be further behind. And then by mile 15 by mile 15, I knew I knew I was in trouble.

Guest [00:12:14]: It was just the the bend like loose were really starting to hurt. And eventually, I just I I, you know, I had to I had to stop to walk a little bit and then pick it up, and, you know, it was just, it was a wreck from that point on.

Michael Hammond [00:12:28]: So things things things got ugly pretty early in

Guest [00:12:31]: Things got yeah. They got ugly early. I mean, I you know, usually, it's like around after mile 20 or so where that happens. And then, you know, then you just kind of fight through the pain. But for you know, you can I can fight through that kind of pain for, you know, 5 or 6 miles, but not, you know, not another 11 or so?

Michael Hammond [00:12:49]: No. We're we're mere mortals. We can't fight through 20 miles of that kind of pain. That's for sure.

Guest [00:12:54]: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:12:55]: Makes sense. Okay. So there's there's the setup. We've got the training going in. We've got a good idea of that. We we saw your taper, how, you know, you you went in pretty tired and just didn't feel like it really ever that situation ever changed. And then the race, more or less from the get go, it it it was rough. Like, more or less, you were still exhausted, and your glutes were exhausted, and and you just you weren't able to to settle in in the race.

Michael Hammond [00:13:18]: So that that all makes sense. I think what I wanna talk about with that training, I wanna kinda dissect the the training element before we get into the race. Because from my perspective, I don't think that you did anything wrong on race day. I don't think there was anything about race day that was that you messed up, or I don't think your pacing strategy was was bunk or anything like that. I really think I'll what I wanna dive into is that training. So I'll give you my like, there's a few different points that I wanna make, and I think the the biggest one is just the overall intensity. I don't mean the mileage. I don't necessarily mean the volume.

Michael Hammond [00:13:51]: I mean, just the overall intensity. I mean, with what you're telling me, you're saying you're doing kind of, like, one big, like, sort of threshold workout that was, you know, pretty long, you know, 6 to 10 ish miles at a at a good clip. I mean, really submarathon pace. So you're you're that's a that's a hard run. That's a very hard workout. You're also doing a like, a medium long run. You know, you said route 15 miles at at a certain point. You're also doing a pretty hard speed session, which was, you know, 800 at 5 k pace.

Michael Hammond [00:14:23]: We all know that's a that's a VO 2 max workout. That's a that's a challenging that's a hard workout even if you're not doing a lot of those 800. And then you're also doing a big, you know, 20 ish miler on the weekends. And this is this is kinda rolled up into the ball of a 70 mile week. That's a that's a challenging that's a really, really challenging week, and I I, you know, I I think that that's the first thing I wanna look at is just, you know, even if I was if I was talking to somebody right now who's 25 years old and they told me that they were doing that, I think I would say, woah. That's that's a heavy training plan for anyone to handle. I mean, literally, anybody to handle that type of training plan is extremely challenging. So I think that from from my perspective, I think that's kind of the big overarching theme that I'm seeing is just a lot of intensity.

Michael Hammond [00:15:11]: Know, this this is something so common that I see, especially with people who who kind of have that moment that you had that that you kind of emailed me about is that you were, like, I really wanna I wanna do this thing. I wanna do this thing right. I wanna run faster. I wanna improve. And next thing you know, you're doing all this really, really hard training, and you feel like it's making you worse in a way. It's not actually making you better. You know, you you should be getting better. If you're running 70 miles a week doing all this threshold and tempo work, ideally, you should be getting faster.

Michael Hammond [00:15:38]: You should be getting better, and yet it made you it made you worse because it was it was just I I think from my perspective, just looking at that, it was just breaking you down. I think that that that is a lot of really hard, heavy training. So let's let's go piece by piece just so we can kinda discuss it and and and talk about what I think would what I think would be a better plan moving forward. So the mileage progression, I think that you did a really good job with that. The 10% rule is one of those things that, I don't I don't love going by it all the time just because sometimes it can get it can get kinda dicey when you let's say you're starting at, yeah, 20 miles a week. Okay. You're adding, you know, you're adding 2 miles to the next week. You're adding 2.2 to the or whatever.

Michael Hammond [00:16:16]: How however it goes. It it can cut it's one of those things that can't it's it's a good it's a good thing to have in the back of your mind. It's a good general rule because the idea is you don't want to massively increase your volume week to week. However, it can lead to I think one of the that's one of the issues it can lead to is just this, like, extremely slow progression. So in your case, you know, you ran in October. By January, you were doing 70 mile weeks. What was your I meant to ask this before. What was your how many miles a week were you running thereabouts If you had to guesstimate heading into, heading into Atlantic City, what was your average, like, miles per week?

Guest [00:16:55]: Yeah. It was around it was in the fifties

Michael Hammond [00:16:58]: Okay.

Guest [00:16:59]: Really. Mid yeah. I think, you know, probably the longest would be, like, a 55 mile week. You know, again, because I was, recovering from that plantar's fasciitis, so I was, yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:17:12]: Right. So jumping up to 70 was, you know, a reasonable jump, but it was still a jump. It was still a pretty big leap up from from what you were doing before. And, ultimately, that's not really that crazy long of a time period. You know, October, you have Atlantic City. You know, the Myrtle Beach marathon was only 5 months later. So you really kinda there was a lot of hard, heavy training crammed into. Let's, you know, let's say, you have, like, a 2 or 3 week post marathon, you know, after Atlantic City downtime, and then you have the 3 week taper heading into Myrtle Beach.

Michael Hammond [00:17:42]: So, really, we're talking about, you know, not we're talking about less than 4 months at that point where you really, really pick things up to, to that more like that.

Guest [00:17:50]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had about a 16 you know, by the time I, you know, recovered from, from Atlantic City, I had a I had a solid, you know, 16 weeks of, of of training.

Michael Hammond [00:18:02]: Yeah. Right. Okay. So that's yeah. That's that was a good that's what I'm saying. I think this is this is such a hard thing to to talk about sometimes is that it's it's hard to look someone in the eye and tell them, I think you worked too hard. You know? That's that's a challenging thing because it's like hard work is good. Right? Hard work hard work, discipline, that's what it's all about.

Michael Hammond [00:18:21]: And yet marathon training can be so finicky in that way because it's not necessarily about the intensity. It's about quantity. It's about those those long, yeah, those long, you know, threshold or marathon type efforts just like time on feet, and and yet it's so easy to come when you combine that high volume with also high intensity and both in terms of, like, just individual hard workouts, but also a lot of them crammed into any given week, that becomes that becomes really hard on your body. I mean, for anybody, that's just a really, really hard thing to case. So not only were you pushing the envelope from a mileage perspective more than anything you'd ever done before, you were also doing just a lot of really hard training. The the way we typically like to do it, the way we typically like to have, like, a progression, I I do like to have some speed work included. Like, so you were doing those 800 at about 5 k pace, sort of a classic VO 2 max type workout. I like doing those.

Michael Hammond [00:19:20]: I don't like doing them in the midst of heavy marathon training because they're just too too rough on your body. You know, going and doing an Yeah. They are. Going and doing 800 at 5 k pace is brutal. That's a hard, hard workout. Going and doing those at any point in the year is really challenging. Going and doing that when you're also in sandwiched in between, like, a hard long threshold run and a 20 mile long run, that's a that's a different beast altogether. I think that I would've so if if I were to just say, I'm gonna dissect this training plan that you had going into Myrtle Beach, and I'm gonna make the changes, and this is what we can do.

Michael Hammond [00:19:56]: I would I would remove those entirely. I would remove those 800 entirely. I know that that that seems weird because, again, speed work, we we think that's the stuff that makes you faster. Right? It's just it it it just doesn't work in the midst of that heavy marathon training. If you have let's say you have 6 months before your next marathon. What what I'll often do is have people do we'll do maybe a month, maybe, like, somewhere between 3 5, maybe 6 weeks of more of, like, a speed phase, actually, before we jump into the really heavy marathon. There's some research that indicates by really working that VO 2 max before you get into the heavy marathon stuff, it can it can improve your endurance and and help make the marathon training more effective, but I don't like to do it altogether because it's just too challenging. It's it's too hard for your body to switch between these hard 8 100s at 5 k pace and also trying to do all this threshold work and also trying to handle all this high volume, I would've I would eliminate those entirely from from that actual and when we're talking about the marathon specific phase of the plan, I I would have eliminated those 100%.

Michael Hammond [00:21:01]: I wouldn't have had you do those

Guest [00:21:02]: at all. Like, not not what's Okay. So Interesting.

Michael Hammond [00:21:06]: Yeah. Yeah. I know that like I said, I know it's it's it's this this is why it can be a really challenging thing to talk to people sometimes because it's hard it's almost hard to tell somebody. It's, in a way, it's easier if if you had had done this started this call and said, you know, I'm I'm running 25 miles a week, and I don't know why my marathon isn't improving. I'm I'm gonna have a hard conversation with you of, like, hey. You gotta you gotta work harder. Like, you you just gotta do the work. You gotta put the time in.

Michael Hammond [00:21:28]: You gotta put the mile. This is a case where it's the total opposite, totally turned on its head, where you're doing 70 miles a week, a lot of hard workouts, and I have to kinda I have to as a coach, I kinda have to, like, pull the reins on you a little bit. That's that's what my job is right now.

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Michael Hammond [00:24:15]: So that's that's that's just one aspect. I do think, you know, we can I can dig into, like, your threshold runs, for instance, so what kinda doing that, like, 6 to 10 miles? I think that long temp long tempo ish threshold runs have their place, and they can be really good. Something I like to use instead for really anybody, and I I like to use these myself as well. It's not just, you know, based on the cohort of runner. It's using more, like, intervals instead, like threshold intervals. So instead of doing just going straight through 8 ish miles at a threshold pace, the reason I don't like doing that is because it's really hard. Ultimately, a threshold run is you're trying to push your lactate levels in your blood without having it go too high because you have a you have a lactate threshold. Right? We're trying to we're trying to go just under that threshold.

Michael Hammond [00:25:03]: We don't we don't wanna surpass it because once you surpass it, you know, I we we talked about this on one of our podcasts recently. We talked about once you surpass that lactate threshold, that lactate just soars in your blood, and it gets at that point, you're not really getting the point of the workout. You're not really getting the I d you know, you're not your body's not really accomplishing what we want with the workout. So that's why I like to I I like to often do intervals instead. So let's say, just as an example, we'll do instead of, like, a a a 6 mile just straight through, we'll do 6 times a mile. 6 times a mile with a minute, maybe 90 seconds rest depending on the person. That way, it just allows you to control the effort a little bit better. Keep it on erring on the side of caution.

Michael Hammond [00:25:45]: And then the way I like you to finish that is so let's say let's say I have you do 6 or 7 times a mile. I want you to finish that workout, and once you're done, if you had to, you could do another rep, maybe even another 2 reps if you had to. And And and that's a that's a good that's a good question for you, Steve, is when you were doing those long, hard threshold efforts, you know, 6 to 10 miles, How did you feel? Describe to me how you felt at the end of them.

Guest [00:26:10]: Oh, there was no. I didn't have anything left. That's for sure. You know? No. I, was I was just constantly looking at my watch just saying, when is this gonna be over? You know?

Michael Hammond [00:26:22]: I hear you.

Guest [00:26:23]: Yeah. I hear you. They were yeah. It was it it would it would it would make for a a a a tough day, a tough workout. Yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:26:31]: This this is what I'm saying is is that I'm not looking at you, Steve, and being like, Steve, you I gotta we gotta have a come to Jesus moment. I gotta get you working harder. You know? It's not that at all. It's the total opposite. It's just you just killed yourself in training because you wanted you wanted to achieve your goal. That's a that's a natural thing for someone who has, you know, big goals and and is a is a go out and achieve it type person is that you end up working too hard. This is this is such a paradoxical thing about distance running, especially about marathon training, is that it's so much Yeah.

Guest [00:27:02]: It's so challenging.

Michael Hammond [00:27:03]: That's that's really the challenge with endurance running. This is the challenge is that it it's a it's a volume sport. It's not really a an intensity sport. So this is I think it's also a reason why so many people start to hate running is because it become they train so hard. They're running so hard. They're making themselves miserable, and then they're also No. They're also not able to race well. Like like, you had that experience.

Michael Hammond [00:27:24]: You know?

Guest [00:27:25]: That's Yeah. Believe me. I mean, I was just I was asking myself, why am I doing this? I'm working so hard. And, you know, it's just nice to when you have a such a great feeling when you when you, you know, you hit your goal after that race. Right? But, man, after you, you know, you work so hard and then you completely flop. It's like, what am I doing? Why am I doing this?

Michael Hammond [00:27:47]: That's just about the worst feeling in the world, and it's so antihuman. You know? We we have we see the the the the consequences of our actions. Right? You work hard. You achieve your goal. You work hard at work, and you get a promotion. You work hard in the gym, and you you gain muscle mass or whatever. Running can be such a challenging thing because you put in an incredible amount of hard work. That's why I really wanted to kinda dive into that because I'm looking at your Strava, and I'm just like, man, this dude was this dude was killing it.

Michael Hammond [00:28:13]: This dude was working hard. So I wanted to kinda, like, clarify that, and and that's that can be such a challenging thing about running. I mean, really, hey. You can put together a great training plan and still have a rough day. The marathon is just a different it's a unique beast. You know? But but in your case, I think it's such a clear case of of a lot of intensity, an excessive amount of intensity, and you were just you were cooked. You were absolutely cooked come race day, and a 3 week taper was just not enough to to remedy that. You know? You you you the training was so, so hard hanging that I think that 3 week taper just just straight up was not enough to to remedy that.

Michael Hammond [00:28:51]: I think it's really that that simple. So so talking about like, that that's why I wanted to mention with, like, those that threshold type run is that when you finish that yeah. Look. Those workouts are tough. They're not they're not easy. It's it's not finishing an easy run where you feel like you could keep going for miles and go all day, but but you do want to be finishing those workouts. Like I said, I like to tell people, leave 1 in the tank. That's something I'll tell people all the time.

Guest [00:29:14]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Leave 1 in the tank.

Michael Hammond [00:29:15]: So if we do 7 times a mile, I I want you to be able to do 8 or 9 times a mile if you had to. If I told you, okay. Actually, we're doing 1 or 2 more reps, you could do it. You could finish it. You could keep the same pace without taking any extra rest, but we don't that's the key. We don't do that. We stop 1 or 2 shy of that in order to keep the effort under control so that we're getting the point of the workout. That's that's the idea behind, you know, doing something like the the repeats instead of the straight through threshold run.

Guest [00:29:46]: Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Alright. That's yeah. Well, I definitely wasn't doing that. You know? I was, you know, was going all out in these runs. So Yeah.

Guest [00:29:55]: Thinking that was good.

Michael Hammond [00:29:56]: Right. Of course. Of course, you would. Of course, you would. No. Of course, you would. It's kinda similar to you know, often, I'll talk to somebody who is getting ready to run their 1st marathon, and let's say they wanna run it at, you know, 8:30 per mile pace. They just go run every day at 8:30 per mile pace because the in in your head, it's like muscle memory.

Michael Hammond [00:30:13]: I need to just be able to hammer out this pace. That's just not how running works. That's not how that's not how you improve at running. So you Yeah. You were obviously several steps ahead of that where you had read the book, and you'd you'd seen all these workouts and stuff. But it's kinda that same thing where it's not I just have to go run hard all the time in order to improve. It really is about really getting nitty gritty with working the right energy system. So, like, doing these lactate threshold workouts, really working under that lactate threshold so that we can raise that lactate threshold over time.

Michael Hammond [00:30:44]: So it's a it's it's just such a paradoxical thing about running. That's why this stuff gets gets so challenging.

Guest [00:30:50]: Yes. And, you know, yeah, and that's what I love about love about this too is that, it is it's it's that challenge of figuring out, you know, yeah, how to do this. You know? We're, how to do it right from fueling and hydrating and, yeah, and and and getting the the right combo of runs in and everything. It's, that's what's that's what's interesting to me. It's like, it's not just the running, but the, figuring out your own body.

Michael Hammond [00:31:15]: It's a more complicated puzzle than than a lot of other other things. I mean, I'm not saying other sports are not complicated in their own way. Of course, there's a lot of moving parts no matter what sort of activity you're trying to do. Yeah. But running is is a challenge. I I like to describe it to people as the hard work in running is is the discipline in putting in the time. That's that's where the hard work should be, not necessarily in the intensity. The way I phrase it often is, like, a lot of people have come into running with, like, the Gatorade commercial mentality, where it's like, give a 110% all the time.

Michael Hammond [00:31:44]: You know? Like like, if you don't if you don't give your best today, you're not you're not working hard enough. That might work in other sports. That does not work in running because you're just gonna absolutely exhaust yourself when you're trying to do this this amount of volume and and training for a 26 mile race. I I think that's really my overarching theme with talking about your training is that I think, well, on the whole, that's that's the if I had to sum it up, it's just too much intensity to everything. Everything needs to be kinda scaled back from an intensity standpoint. I love the volume. I love your commitment to saying running more is gonna make me better. It's gonna make me fitter.

Michael Hammond [00:32:19]: It's gonna help improve my marathon time. There's no doubt that that's true. Obviously, you have to be able to recover from all that. You have to be able to hand you have to be able to handle the amount of volume and still be able to recover. But I love your commitment to saying, hey. I can run 70 miles a week. I can I can be disciplined enough to get that amount in? I believe it's gonna help me. That's tremendous.

Michael Hammond [00:32:39]: I think it's really just more about the intensity in in your, in your case. And I'm I'm almost I'm almost surprised that the plantar fascia didn't didn't rear its ugly head sooner, you know, than it than it did. I I think it's almost miraculous that you were able to keep it going up up until the taper.

Guest [00:32:56]: Yeah. Yeah. That was a challenge too because, I mean, it just took a lot of stretch and I had to be very disciplined with that. If I, if I relaxed on the stretching at all, you know, there's there's certain stretches for that. And if I noticed if I, stop doing that or just fell behind or whatever, it would start to flare up a little bit. So I had to stay on top of that.

Michael Hammond [00:33:16]: Yeah. No. That's that's with any with any, like, long term chronic injury like that, that's the challenge is is that you have to even even when you're feeling great, you have to remember to stay on top of it. Even if you're not feeling it at all, you have to remember to stay on top of the the rehab stuff so that it doesn't, it it doesn't pop back up like that. That's that's definitely the challenge. Yeah.

Guest [00:33:35]: Yeah. I'm doing some, like, a laser doing, like, a laser therapy now, which, actually is is working well.

Michael Hammond [00:33:42]: Nice.

Guest [00:33:42]: But it's taken a lot. It's been, about a year and a half now that I've been fighting this thing.

Michael Hammond [00:33:47]: Goodness. Yeah. Yeah. Well, here's here's one thing. I think that I think that taking that approach to kind of scaling back the overall intensity of the training will actually help with that. Because if you think about it on I mean, first of all, just running harder is always harder on your muscles and tendons, that straight up. But, also, when you're doing a lot of intensity, you're you're forced you know, you're just putting a lot more strain on those lower leg muscles and tendons. So the plantar fascia, your Achilles tendon, your calves, those work so much harder the faster that you're running.

Michael Hammond [00:34:19]: You know, however much faster you're running, especially, you know, if you sprint, obviously, you're you're using entirely. Those those calves and and even your planar are being stretched like crazy. If you're running slow and easy, they're they're able to relax a little bit more. They're still working, but they're able to relax a little bit more. I do think that redo I think that scaling back that intensity a little bit is gonna help that tremendously. Obviously, on top of your rehab, on top of the treatments that you're getting for it, I think that scaling back that intensity is gonna keep that at bay a lot better than than the training that you did heading into Myrtle Beach. Yeah.

Guest [00:34:51]: For sure.

Michael Hammond [00:34:52]: So let's let's talk about fueling because you you brought it up there. I don't get the sense that that is a major problem for you, especially talking about race day. You know, that's why I didn't even bring it up when we were talking about the race itself because I don't believe that I I don't think that the reason your glutes started to kill you 6 miles in was because of a fueling issue. I I don't think so anyway. But but let's talk about it nonetheless because it's it's an this is an important part not only of racing, but also of of recovery from training, you know, keeping your keeping yourself fueled and being able to recover from training. So let's talk about, you know Yeah. Yeah. Talk to me about, like, what how are you fueling typically for for workouts throughout the week? You know, what what are you doing before? You know, are do you you feel like your diet is is under control in general? And and are do you feel energized for your training? Don't talk to me about all that.

Guest [00:35:38]: Yeah. Sure. I've got a buddy who does he's a he does a lot of triathlons, Ironmans. You know? And he just thinks I'm crazy for the for the lack of of, of fuel that I that I do during runs and Hydri. You know, he carries he carry he carries multiple packets and water, and he just thinks that he can't believe that I I run on as little as I do. You know? So but maybe that's not a good thing. I always kinda thought, well, maybe that's, you know, maybe maybe my body is, trained not, you know, to that is to to not use the need that fuel or whatever. But maybe I don't I'm I'm starting to think maybe that's that's the wrong mindset.

Guest [00:36:14]: Maybe I I need to to start to, you know, take in more carbs during during my run. You know? So I'm I'm I'm but I'm trying to train my stomach because the reason why I don't because, you know, some of those things, they just sit in my stomach, and and you feel like crap. You know? And it's just that's not a good feeling. I'm sure you know what that's like. Right? Very good. But I've been reading yeah. I've been reading lately that you can actually train your gut to, to get used to these, to these things. So that's what I've been doing lately.

Guest [00:36:43]: Even on on, you know, short runs or medium runs, I'm I'm I'm just taking in, some gels or or some fuel and trying to train my gut to to to take in more carbohydrates. But, you know, so for instance, on, you know, in, at Myrtle Beach, I probably during through the the whole race, I probably took in 4 or 5, packets, and, you know, they're, like, 24 milligrams of carbohydrates, you know, per packet. Probably I don't know. Maybe that's not enough.

Michael Hammond [00:37:14]: Got it. Okay. Yeah. That all makes sense. No. That that makes perfect sense. Here here's here's how how I like to typically set it up. So I think that I am not necessarily always a proponent of having to fuel every single run.

Michael Hammond [00:37:27]: Like so your your triathlon buddy, one reason that they so into that and they they're so shocked to see runners not doing it is because oftentimes their training sessions are so long. You know, if you're doing a 3 hour training session, yeah, of course, you have to be fueling during that. My general rule is anything over 90 minutes, definitely, we wanna fuel. Anything over an hour is depends on the day. If it's an if it's an easy run where you're running 70 minutes, I don't really think that's a case where you have to be fueling in the middle of it. If it's a hard, like, workout, you know, more of a speed workout, maybe that's a case. Even if it's not quite over 90 minutes, maybe that's a case where you need to to be working on some fuel. So when we're talking about the the fueling, you something you mentioned that I found interesting is you talked about how maybe I'm adaptive.

Michael Hammond [00:38:15]: Maybe I don't necessarily need that. I there is a lot of evidence that indicates that that can be beneficial is to not necessarily constantly need a, you know, a sugar hit in order to to run. Like, there there is a benefit to being somewhat fat adapted. I don't like to go too hard into that because, you know, you can get into some real, you know, like, some people are are working on becoming entirely fat adapted to where they take in no carbohydrates. There's there's obviously a school of thought there that I certainly don't participate in, but but there's a school of thought there. There is benefit to being you know, we've we've had, a nutrition expert on our podcast used to call it, like, metabolic flexibility to where you include, you know, a good bit of carbs, fats, and proteins in your diet to where your body can run on kind of anything. It can run on whatever you you give it, but there's definitely a benefit to not constantly taking in sugar on runs. So that's why I I like to have that rule where it's anything under an hour, no question, no fuel in for me.

Michael Hammond [00:39:13]: Okay. I mean, you can you can take in water. You can take in water anytime. Water is is anytime. That's a good thing to get used to is is is drinking water. You don't have to, but it's, for anything under an hour. But no no fueling. Anything over 90 minutes, that's where I said I can give that rule of no question.

Michael Hammond [00:39:28]: That's where we wanna be fueling for sure. We wanna we wanna be taking something in at least once throughout the run. That 60 to 9 that 60 to 90 minutes, it's, again, it's subjective. That that's really what we wanna look at. So in your case, I do think it's good to be working on that even multiple times per week because you gotta GI system used to taking in something. I do think that you should definitely experiment with different types of fuel because that's what people find. Something will work tremendously for someone's stomach, and the another person, it'll irritate it. Really, what I would say for you, we wanna find that balance of, yeah, you wanna train your stomach.

Michael Hammond [00:40:04]: Yeah. You wanna get better at your stomach handling it, but you don't want I don't want I wouldn't want you doing it every single day. I wouldn't want you every single run feeling like you have to bring a gel with you and and taking that in because I just don't think it's necessary, and, ultimately, I really don't think it's good. You you want your body to be able to run on the fuel that you're giving it throughout the day. You know?

Guest [00:40:25]: Yeah. Yeah. Not to mention it gets expensive.

Michael Hammond [00:40:28]: It gets very expensive. Those gels are preposterous. I yeah. I've oh, I I did, on our podcast, I did an episode where I talked about, like, it was, like, 5, like, budget friendly tips for runners or something like that. I I I had given, like, a tip of of how to, like, make your own, and it's really funny that you can essentially get the same thing out of a gel by just making do you know I I assume do you know what simple, simple syrup is, like, for drink mixes and stuff? It's it's just it's literally just sugar water. I mean, that's that's all it is. So that that basically just plain cane sugar mixed in water essentially does the same thing as a gel because it's a it's a 5050, like, glucose fructose mix that that Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:41:11]: The stomach actually handles really well. I personally I hate gels. I think they're gross. I think they're disgusting. I I'm I'm like you. I I've had I've had a long history of some major GI issues, and so I don't handle that stuff well at all. So Yeah. So that that's an that's an idea, is is to try doing your own stuff at home.

Michael Hammond [00:41:28]: It can it can get kind of annoying just because it anything with to do with sugar, this sweet stuff gets sticky and gross, but it it it can save a lot of money, and it's honestly, in my opinion, it's just a better way to do it because most of the stuff on the market has a lot of additives and stuff too. That's the stuff that can really irritate your gut, like in goos and stuff. So

Guest [00:41:45]: Yeah. They start flavoring them and stuff. I found the, Morton Yeah. Goose. You know? That's, like, the easiest to go down. You know? But, yeah, they're just damn expensive.

Michael Hammond [00:41:55]: Yeah. Oh, it adds up like crazy. That's why I'm saying don't don't feel like you need to do that. I would say maybe, like, a twice a week scenario would probably make sense, like, on the biggest workout of the week, and then on the long run would probably be plenty, in my opinion. I I don't I don't think it would be super necessary to be doing a whole lot more than that. So, yeah, like I like I said, I don't I don't see in your case I'm not sitting here looking at, like, fueling as your big issue. I I do think that for me, I like to look at I like to tell people the most important thing is that you're fueling well you're fueling well throughout the day, not necessarily pre or during run. Like, those are important.

Michael Hammond [00:42:31]: They have their place, but the most important thing is your overall general nutrition. Like, that's if you're taking care of that, then that's the that's, like, the foundation. And then taking care you know, adding in the, like, pre and during run fueling, that's just like the cherry on top. That helps, but it's not gonna make up for, you know, not getting what you the macronutrients and all that stuff that you need through your diet. So so really so don't don't worry too much about the the fueling aspect mid run. I would say practice it a couple times a week just on those longer, harder efforts. So, yeah, that's what I would say. Twice a week, I think that would be plenty.

Michael Hammond [00:43:06]: I wouldn't worry about it too much beyond that, really.

Guest [00:43:09]: Alright. Alright. Cool. Okay. Yeah. That's so that's interesting to hear. Yeah. I mean, I was just wondering if I was just, you know, if I should just be doing, you know, like my friend and just just sucking those things down, like, you know, every few minutes or something.

Michael Hammond [00:43:23]: Some people do, man. Some people do. I I don't think it's worth it from both from a cost and also, like I said, I just I don't think it's good from a training perspective because you're beginning your body to excessively rely on that constant intake of of carbohydrate, which which I don't think is good either. We don't really want Right.

Guest [00:43:38]: Yeah. Yeah. I know. Yeah. I've been wondering if that's what happens at, yeah, if you have so suddenly you don't have the access to that. Because you're bonk too. Yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:43:46]: You're gonna bonk. You're gonna bonk. Yeah. That's why I'm saying, like, I I like to that's I I told you about that guy we we had on that that talked about, like, metabolic flexibility. I like that. I like for you to be able to to not always need that precious gel in your pocket. You know? I don't really want

Guest [00:44:01]: Yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:44:01]: Once you get to race day once you're on race day, yeah, we wanna use those because you gotta be able to perform you gotta be able to push your body to the top limit. You know? That's at that point, yeah, there's no there's no better fuel than sugar, than carbohydrate, you know, that direct simplest carbohydrate. But but in training, I don't wanna excessively rely on that for sure. Mhmm. Alright. Okay. So there's that that's really, Steve, that's really, like, the big those are kind of the big overarching themes. I I really think you're I think you're in a good spot because I think that your path forward is actually pretty simple.

Michael Hammond [00:44:34]: I know it may not feel that way, and it could because you feel like you worked so hard, you did so much hard work heading into Myrtle Beach, but I actually think you're in a good spot because your solution is pretty simple. It's not you're not in this complex scenario where you need to change x, y, z, all these crazy variables. I really think it's a matter of, yes, continuing to do higher volume and and work in that angle, but but just really scaling back that intensity, doing more targeted focused workouts rather than just these excessively hard challenging sessions, I really think that that's your key. I really think that's your that's gonna be the the the meat and potatoes of of getting you down to 315. No question in my mind. No no question in my mind.

Guest [00:45:16]: So, yeah, back off on the intensity. So would you do you see volume volume over intensity?

Michael Hammond [00:45:24]: Absolutely. Volume volume in general. It's not that there's no intensity. We're not just gonna go run easy all the time, but but definitely prioritizing the volume. You know? It really if you look at, like, different races, if you're running let's say you go down and you're running a you're training for a 5 k. That might be a case where it's still a volume it's still very aerobic. Like, we still want a good bit of volume, but maybe that that balance is gonna shift a little bit more towards intensity, a little bit versus, like, you know, once we move up to the marathon, that that that thing that pendulum swings way more towards volume.

Guest [00:45:58]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:45:59]: I think you would have run better in Myrtle Beach if you had just done 70 miles of easy runs. Like, 100 percent a 100%, I think you would've run better if you had just done that every every run. 100%. That's not to say that that that's not a perfect training plan by any means, but you that would have been better than going out and just killing yourself multiple times per week.

Guest [00:46:17]: Yeah. I was.

Michael Hammond [00:46:18]: I've been there, man. I've been there, brother. I'm telling you. Been there where you just you're just ripping it. You feel like you're doing it right. You know? You're you're how how can hard work not be rewarded with the right result? It's just it's excessive. It's just so hard on your body. It's so hard to recover from that stuff.

Michael Hammond [00:46:34]: You cannot do that that consistently and recover properly from it. And, ultimately, it's not just recovery. You're just not getting the right you're not working the right energy systems. Like I said, with that threshold, that's so finicky. I mean, I I don't know if you've read about this or seen this, but but professional athletes, they'll use something called a lactate meter, where they're in the middle of workouts. They are taking a blood sample

Guest [00:46:57]: and

Michael Hammond [00:46:57]: check and checking their lactate. Now that's that's obviously that's top high end. That's top level.

Guest [00:47:02]: Oh, yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:47:03]: But the but the mentality of that, I think, is important to to take away that that they are checking their effort throughout. These are professional high level athletes, so their job is to run. That's all they're doing. And even they are are holding back in these workouts, making sure that they're not going too too hard, going to the well, and and ending the workout totally exhausted because they're not getting the point of the workout. So so important. So important. Right.

Guest [00:47:28]: Well, that's interesting to I I kinda need a tape, you know, to hear that one way or the other. Either, you know, I, wasn't sure if I just tape if if my taper was too long and too easy and I just lost strength, you know, in that time or if I just didn't, you know, have enough. But, yeah, maybe you're right. I just, I just went too intense for too long and didn't have enough time to really recover.

Michael Hammond [00:47:50]: Yeah. Now looking back, I think you can probably see it with, like, 2020 vision where you're just like, man, I was, like, brutalizing my body for all those weeks, those 16 weeks of marathon training.

Guest [00:48:00]: So so let me ask you this. We're we're we're running this by you. So I, I had signed up for I qualified for Boston, Boston Marathon. I signed up for it. And I'm still you know, technically, I am registered for the Boston Marathon, and I think it's in what is it?

Michael Hammond [00:48:17]: Just a just a couple

Guest [00:48:18]: days or something like that?

Michael Hammond [00:48:19]: A couple weeks. Yeah. Yeah.

Guest [00:48:22]: Yeah. I'd be crazy to run that. Right?

Michael Hammond [00:48:26]: You know, if I had to answer that question, I'd say, yes. You would be crazy to run that, but but I'm also anytime someone gets into Boston and has the opportunity, I'm never gonna tell them absolutely don't do it by any means. Well You know?

Guest [00:48:40]: I'm I'm confident I'll, you know, I'll qualify again. Sure. But, I but I'm just think I'm thinking I've been telling everybody and telling myself this is no way I can run it. It's just, because, you know, that's one of those races where I wanna do good. I don't wanna just run it. I wanna do well.

Michael Hammond [00:48:55]: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. You wanna make the most of that opportunity. That's I if I were your coach working with you, I would nearly demand that you don't do it. Okay. Alright. Nearly.

Michael Hammond [00:49:05]: Okay. Nearly. Not not again, I wouldn't I wouldn't make it a hard rule because you're you're a grown man. You've got your own. This is your decision, and it's Boston. You get into Boston. It's an amazing opportunity. But that's what I would say, is I would be like, I I just don't think it would make sense right now.

Michael Hammond [00:49:21]: I think you need to this I think it's good that you're having this conversation because you can kinda take that step back, look at things on a bigger scale, and and and really kinda, like, reformat your training entirely, really. I think that's that's I think that's the key here for sure.

Guest [00:49:35]: Alright. So another question?

Michael Hammond [00:49:36]: Sure. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You got plenty of time. You got as many questions as you'd like.

Guest [00:49:40]: There's a, marathon in, Vermont City, in Burlington, Vermont. Nice. What it is in mid May, which is about 8 weeks away. Yeah. Is that would that be pushing it?

Michael Hammond [00:49:54]: That would be more doable more doable. It's still like, look. Look. You're not gonna get this massive, you know, marathon, like, foundational training plan in because you just don't have really that much time, but that would be that would be doable, at least. That would that would definitely be doable. You could get, like, a nice little 5, 6 week block of training, get some good training in now that you've had some time to recover. What what exact what what day was Myrtle Beach? I I had this written down. What what day exactly?

Guest [00:50:21]: It was that it was March 2nd on the 2nd.

Michael Hammond [00:50:25]: March 2nd. Okay. So it's so it's been almost it's we're nearing a month from from that. So you've kinda had time. I really, there there's a question I should have asked sooner. How are you feeling now? Like, how are you feeling now several weeks after?

Guest [00:50:35]: Pretty good. Pretty good. Yeah. Good. Yeah. I'm I've, you know, been, recovered a little bit and starting to bring up the the miles. So, I don't know if it's too much too soon. You know? So I did was I got up to 40, I think, 43 last week.

Guest [00:50:51]: And

Michael Hammond [00:50:52]: That's not bad. That's good. That's fine. I think

Guest [00:50:54]: you this week?

Michael Hammond [00:50:56]: Yeah. I think that's fine. I think I think you're several weeks after you've had time to recover. I think that's where you have to kinda just ask yourself, like, how, yeah, how how am I feeling in general? Do I feel fully recovered from that race? We'll usually do I'll usually give people, like, a, you know, 2 to 3 week, I mean, almost no maybe very, very small amount of running, you know, a little bit of just kinda like little jogs here and there at most. Yeah. Yeah. But but but then after that, people are generally ready to to pick it back up. So if you're feeling fully recovered, then, yeah, I mean, I think you could get a pretty solid 5, 6 week block heading into Yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:51:30]: Heading into that race, for sure. I mean, again, done intelligently, done smart, you know, not necessarily not not the intense training block that you did heading into Myrtle Beach, but a but a an intelligently done training block, I think, could could prepare you. It's not gonna be, yeah, this the ideal, you know, 12 to 16 weeks that you would want. But, yeah, I I think you could get a good training block and be ready be ready to roll in in Vermont. Yeah. No question.

Guest [00:51:54]: Yeah. Alright. Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna go for that.

Michael Hammond [00:51:57]: How hilly that course is. I I I'm not familiar with that race.

Guest [00:52:00]: Vermont City in Burlington? Yeah. Very flat.

Michael Hammond [00:52:02]: Very flat. Really? Okay. Yeah.

Guest [00:52:04]: Yeah. It goes along it goes along it goes along the lake.

Michael Hammond [00:52:06]: I spent a a a few weeks up there in the summer years ago. And Oh, yeah? We were you know, obviously, we were doing all these crazy runs and stuff, and everything was just massive hills and and craziness. Yeah. I definitely think you could be I think you could be ready for that. It's it's gonna be a little bit of a rushed prep, and I I think that the good thing is is that that training that you did for both Atlantic City and Myrtle Beach, it's not gone. You know? That that the like, even though even though I sat here and, like, eviscerated your training plan and said that I would do it differently, that doesn't mean that you gained nothing. That doesn't mean that Yeah.

Guest [00:52:40]: Yeah. No. You know, you

Michael Hammond [00:52:41]: you gained fitness. Even though it didn't show on race day, you gained you've got a lot of fitness there. There's a big foundation there. So that's I think this actually could be a good opportunity to kinda just build on that and sort of, like, be like, alright. I want in Vermont City, that's where I want that fitness to actually show. I I think you have a good opportunity to do that.

Guest [00:52:58]: Yeah. Alright. Cool. Cool. Yeah. I'm gonna go for that then.

Michael Hammond [00:53:01]: Good, man. I love it. I love it. I've kinda, gone all out with your training plan. Give me some other questions. What else you got? I

Guest [00:53:06]: don't know if I told you. I think I I think I told you. I I tried coaching once, I don't know. It was more than a year ago. And, you know, it it was good, but the I, you know, I just started I started getting burnt. And I think I was getting burnt because I felt like, I wasn't running for myself. You know what I mean?

Michael Hammond [00:53:28]: Sure.

Guest [00:53:28]: You know, I just felt like, you know, I was just it was it it got to the point where doing it to keep the coach off my and I don't wanna say on my back, but he was never really on my back. But, you know, maybe it's just just just me. I just felt like he'd be on my back or something if I didn't, you know, if I didn't get this run-in and if I didn't, you know, hit it exactly to plan and everything. So, know, then I just had to, I think let me see. He that was that was in preparation for, yeah, for a couple of marathons. There's one in New Hampshire. And then, and then, anyway, yeah, when the plantar fasciitis hit, then I said, you know what? Yeah. I need to did that stop me like, stop my running completely for about 4 months? Yeah.

Guest [00:54:10]: That was that's how bad that was. You know? And so in that time, yeah, I didn't have any coaching. But then when I started picking up running again, I didn't, I didn't go back to the coaching. But, anyway, long story short, you know, I mean, I'd like to, you know, find thinking about finding another coach, trying it again, anyway.

Michael Hammond [00:54:27]: I'll tell you something that from my perspective, I am more the style of coach that I I mean, really, the way I've described it on this call, for me, it's more I'm there oftentimes to, like, give you the structure and then to kind of rein you in a lot of times. Like, I I think I think about you. If I was sending you out on workouts, my job isn't, hey, Steve. I'm gonna get on your butt about working hard or about, you know, running hard or anything like that or or keeping you, like, accountable. You you seem like a very account you're accountable to yourself. You're that type of guy. You you get it done. You get the work done.

Michael Hammond [00:55:01]: Like, you're not the type of guy you have to, you know, send you messages all the time and and keep you accountable. It's more it's more having a second pair of eyes that helps you actually kind of it's kind of like a check on yourself, you know, to Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Keep you make sure that you're in line. Make sure not in line in terms of, like, doing the work, but in line and more, with, like, the intended effort level, with the intent of the progression of the plan. That's really more of of, like, my style anyway, is is I don't really like I'm not trying to be somebody's boot camp instructor. You know what I mean? Like like, yelling at you all the time or or anything like that.

Michael Hammond [00:55:36]: It's more I wanna make sure that we're on this on the same page.

Guest [00:55:39]: I think I, you know, I need a little bit of flexibility just because, I mean, you know, with light, you know You're busy. With the kids and work and family, you know, my, you know, this this, you know, things going on with the, you know, my my direct family and and, yeah. So I just need flexibility. If I don't get a run-in today, you know, something you know, I'll do it tomorrow or, you know, something like that. Or, you know, sometimes I'll I'll miss a run entirely or whatever. But, yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:56:08]: You know, I'm I haven't necessarily heard this directly, but I I would be very confident that I would be able to help you. I'll tell you that much. I'd be extremely confident that I would be able to help you and and kinda be that type of coach that's not necessarily all over you all the time, but gives you that flexibility gives you that flexibility. I think that's a huge part of any training plan for me. I I anyone I work with is typically busy, has a family, has has obligations, has things come up. It is what it is. That's life. You know? So any any good train yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:56:37]: Weather. Exactly. Exactly. Any good training plan, I think, that I would write would have built in flexibility around being able to move stuff around. And I I I one thing other thing I'll say is that any training plan I would draw up for you would be a lot more flexible than the one that you did heading into Myrtle Beach because there was so much of that intensity, I think, and so so many things that you were trying to cram in any given week. That gets really tough to move around because, let's say, you can't get that threshold in on a Tuesday, let's say, for instance.

Guest [00:57:07]: Yeah. You

Michael Hammond [00:57:08]: gotta do it on Wednesday. Now you have this this medium long run coming up the next day. Now you're cramming in a ton of intensity into just a couple days. I would design it to be much more flexible than that and for to to give you that flexibility to move things around for sure.

Guest [00:57:22]: Well, you know, I mean, I would like to talk to you about that either, you know, if not on this call, but, you know, sometime soon, maybe just get back into something maybe we can work out.

Michael Hammond [00:57:31]: Yeah. Yeah. No. I'd love to. Steve, I'd love to. I I think you're you're the exact type of person I would love to work with. I I think that my thing is I love when somebody has the motivation because that's a hard thing to coach. You know? That's a hard thing to drill into somebody if if they don't have that motivation already.

Michael Hammond [00:57:47]: You know what I mean?

Guest [00:57:48]: Well, yeah. I do. You know? I mean, it is it's because you know, because it just make make goals. You know? I mean, I think I told you. No. I don't know if how realistic it is, but it'd be so cool to run a sub 3 hour marathon. You know? Yeah. And, I mean, if I never do it, well, you know, I'd like to try.

Michael Hammond [00:58:04]: Sure. Oh, no doubt. No doubt. No. I I think you have the capability of that. I think with with what you were able to do, you know, last year off of what I think now is especially suboptimal training, I I think that, yeah, I think you have the capability of of going certainly under that 3 10, 3 15 mark, but but even beyond that, going under 3 hours. I think you definitely have that capability.

Guest [00:58:24]: Well, yeah, I'd like to, you know, have a I'm definitely willing to try.

Michael Hammond [00:58:29]: Yeah. I hear you, man. Yeah. Yeah. No. No. I I'd be why don't we do this? Let me send you let me send you a little bit of just kinda information about it, about, how we kinda structure the coaching and and what it looks like. You Yeah.

Michael Hammond [00:58:40]: You you think on it a little bit, what we can do. We hey. If you're at that point, if you're like, let's let's rock and roll. Let's do this. I'm I'd be ready to get started right away. If you need to take a little time or you wanna have another call to discuss it, I'd be happy to do that as well. That'd be Alright. Completely fine on my side.

Michael Hammond [00:58:55]: But I'll I'll I'll email you some info, and and, you know, we can kinda just rock and roll from there.

Guest [00:59:00]: Alright. Hey. I'll I'll I'll tell you something else too. So I had I ran New York City is such a hard marathon to get into. I mean, you can pay your way or whatever and but or you can get in the lottery, but, you know, you've gotta run, like, their their races. You know, like Boston, there's Boston qualifiers all over the country. You know, New York, you've gotta run an NYRR race. Anyway, I ran stat I did a half marathon in Staten Island, and I, and I did really well did really well in that.

Guest [00:59:32]: I was really I think 1 hour 32. For me, that was really good.

Michael Hammond [00:59:36]: That's terrific.

Guest [00:59:36]: That was that was well under the, under the the qual time for New York. So long story short, I registered for New York this year for, what is that? In November 3rd or something like that.

Michael Hammond [00:59:47]: Yeah.

Guest [00:59:48]: So maybe that make that, an a race.

Michael Hammond [00:59:50]: Nice. I love it. No. That's tremendous. I'm I'm glad to know about the 132. I don't think I had seen you mention that you had run that. When was that? When was the Staten Island half?

Guest [00:59:59]: That was, I think it was September 20th.

Michael Hammond [01:00:04]: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, man. You are in so much better shape than 323 or or whatever it is you ran in Myrtle Beach. I'll tell you that. That that definitely indicates that. No question.

Michael Hammond [01:00:15]: Yeah.

Guest [01:00:16]: Yeah. Well, yeah, I did the so I did the one the 132 and a half and then, then a few weeks then in October 22nd was, Atlantic City, and then it I did the 323 there. I was very happy with the 323. You know?

Michael Hammond [01:00:29]: No. The 323 is great. It's it's great, but I I think you're, yeah, I think you're definitely ready for for more. You know, for that for sure. For sure. So yeah. Let's let's do that. Let's I'll I'll send you some stuff.

Michael Hammond [01:00:39]: I'll send you I'll send you an email, and and that way, we can make an Absolutely. Alright, Steve. Alright. Yeah. Take care.

Guest [01:00:53]: Have a

Michael Hammond [01:00:54]: good one. Have a great weekend.

Guest [01:00:55]: Thanks. You too. Later.

Finn Melanson [01:01:12]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm your host, Finn Melanson. As always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. Please consider connecting with me on Instagram at wasatch fin and the rest of our team at runners connect. Also consider supporting our show for free with a rating on the Spotify and Apple Podcast Players. And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with our guests, and

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