The Story of the Greatest Marathon in Olympic History and the Women Who Made It Happen

Guest [00:00:06]: Hello. I'm Stephen Lane, and you're listening to Run to the Top podcast.

Finn Melanson [00:00:14]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn Melanson, and this is the Run to the Top podcast. The podcast dedicated to making you a better runner with each and every episode. We are created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net where you can find the best running information on the Internet As well as training plans to fit every runner and every budget. Long Run to Glory chronicles the remarkable morning of August 5, 1984 when 4 legendary marathoners, Joan Benoit, Greta Waits, Ingrid Christensen, and Rosa Mota converge for the historic Women's Olympic marathon in Los Angeles, California. These women had already shattered records and dominated other parts of the running scene for almost half a decade, revolutionizing the sport in the process. And in this book, their journeys, their rivalries, and this inaugural Olympic marathon are vividly depicted in a gripping account of athletic prowess and determination. In today's episode of Run to the Top, we are joined by the author of this book, Stephen Lane, to talk about the personality traits, reputations, Running styles and challenges faced by each of these 4 star runners, the historical and cultural aspects of women's long distance running, specifically How, title 9 shaped the landscape of women's participation in sports in the years leading up to this race and how this particular race would go on to influence the world of marathon running and women's running in general for years decades to come.

Finn Melanson [00:01:49]: Tune in for a reflection on one of the most Interesting and pivotal moments in long distance running history. Today's episode is sponsored by Magnesium Breakthrough from Bioptimizers. Their industry leading magnesium supplement helps you sleep better and reduce stress. Head to mag breakthrough.comforward/run to the top to learn more and save 10%. Timeline Nutrition has developed a groundbreaking product called MitoPure that revitalizes your mitochondria, which create energy in nearly every cell in your body. Head to TimeLine Nutrition.com to learn more.

Finn Melanson [00:02:36]: Stephen Lane, it is a pleasure to have you here today. I was just talking with you offline. I grew up in Cape Elizabeth, Maine, which is which is where, one of the People in your book Long Run to Glory is is is featured Joe Benoit Samuelson. So this is a a very interesting episode in particular for me. Yeah. I think maybe the first question that I wanna ask you is, you mentioned, you know, that that watching Joan Benoit's, historic 1984 marathon victory, that played a pretty significant role in inspiring your Lifelong love of running. Can you share more about that moment and and and just how it exactly contributed and, I guess, how it ultimately led you to write this book?

Guest [00:03:19]: Yeah. So I I grew up in Colorado, and my parents weren't runners. We weren't a running family, But but we were definitely a sports family. And so if the Olympics were happening, the Olympics were on TV in my house. And I so, we didn't really follow running, but I remember, 1984, I was 13 years old and and just waking up On a Sunday and coming down, and and the race was on. And I I had heard the name Joan Benoit. I I had heard the name Greta Weitz. But I the the image I remember, which you may remember is is is of Joan Benoit all alone on the freeway.

Guest [00:04:05]: And and and the shot I think they had the shot from the helicopter. And so you can just see this, like, tiny speck Of of Gray moving along the freeway, and there's no no other runners in the picture. And I and I just remember that Seeming so cool and and and such an awesome vision of of excellence. And I don't know. Like, it wasn't like, you know, the next day, I was like, I have to go running. But, but I I I that idea of, you know, being all alone, doing something great, is is kind of what I love most about running, just, you know, being out by myself wherever I am. And I remember, you know, I Trying to think about how to write about running. And, originally, I wanted to write a book about the higher 1984 Olympics, which would be, like, you know, a multibolume book.

Guest [00:05:03]: I I came back to that image, and and that race is is is being, you know, obviously formational for me, but also, I think, kind of foundational to the modern running movement in in many ways. And so that that started it. And, obviously, there's there's so much you know, it's like any marathon. There's so much more to what happens than than what we see in the race. And and so, what started is just trying to capture that moment turned into, a story about, You know, how we got to that moment. Not just the runners, but but the whole fight to get the women's marathon into the Olympics is, It's just such a great story.

Finn Melanson [00:05:43]: I like how you mentioned there that there is a well, yeah, maybe there is a certain challenge when it comes to writing about running and I'm Maybe there is a stereotype out there that at least for the general population, it's not always the most exciting thing to watch on TV or to spectate Certain events. Did you Was there anything you discovered in the process of putting this book together? And I guess maybe just, you know, being a fan of this sport the last 30 or 40 years, Have you figured any interesting things out about what in particular resonates, what brings entertainment value, where casual fans can really really tap in and And begin to appreciate these athletes in this

Guest [00:06:23]: sport. Well, that's a that's a really interesting question. And I guess I the place I start is that, you know, the marathon's the only race that it's a name. It's not a distance. Right? It's, And and so the marathon, I think, for for most fans has always tapped into kind of that that that mythical classical hero background. And and I think what what Sports fans of any kind can tap into is that is that, you know, in the marathon, it's not always The fastest or or most talented athlete, although you have to be really fast and really talented to win a marathon. But there's, You know, the the idea of endurance and and the will to get through, the pain when it comes and and and the the ability to sort of Outlast and and honestly, outthink your opponents, is something I tried to capture in the book. And and I think it's something that, maybe because there's more time for things to unfold in a marathon than other races is is maybe more prevalent, at least in the narrative of of how we can talk about a marathon.

Guest [00:07:38]: And and and so that's how I was trying to write about the race It says it's, you know, it's not just okay. They went out and they ran and they ran and they ran and they ran and they finished. It's it's trying to capture a little bit of what's going on in their heads, in the middle of it.

Finn Melanson [00:07:51]: I'm probably gonna mispronounce a few of these names, so so please do correct me if I do. But there's really like 4 characters in the book that that stuck out to me, Joan Benoit, Greta Waits, Ingrid Christensen, Rosa Mota. Maybe starting with Joan Benoit, when you when you think about the value of her character, what stood out, her personality traits, The challenges she faced, how how would you describe Joan Benoit to this audience? Like, what made her so interesting to write about?

Guest [00:08:17]: Okay. So I'm I'm laughing because, the thing that stands out is not so much Joanie Myself. But every person I interviewed about Joni, they they run out of ways to say tough. You know what I mean? They're they're, like, they run out of synonyms for it. They they just start repeating, you know, the, oh, she was tough, tough, tough, tough, tough. And and You you just get the sense that even for, you know, coaches who who live in that world and and media personalities who cover it and even other runners, she she was a breed apart in in her ability to, withstand the rigors of the training and the racing. And, and I think that's true that, you know, obviously, any elite marathoner is pretty tough. But but I think the fact, you know, you look at some of the stories from Joni, you know, even as a as a young girl, like she she broke her leg in high school skiing, and she desperately wanted to make it back for the the track championships in the spring.

Guest [00:09:28]: And so as soon as the cast comes off, you know, her doctors are saying don't run. Her coach says you can't train with the team. She's running anyway. And she's limping around the track, and some little boy says, hey. You shouldn't be running so much if you're limping. And she's like, the hell with that. And she goes off and just decides to do all her runs, like, in a in an old abandoned, army base just just so she can run without people staring at her. And and so you have, you know, from her formative years, this this girl who who would withstand any amount of pain, in pursuit of her goals.

Guest [00:10:02]: And so while that's true, I think what's unappreciated about Joni is how smart she was in races. And and, and one thing, I think, you know, we if, you know, if you've run any distance, you know, the the more tired you get, The harder it is to kinda keep your wits about you, but she she was exceptional at that. And and thinking through, Endgame strategies mid race. Just time and time again, she demonstrated the ability to do that. And so you combine the toughness, with the smarts, and and you have a a truly, truly exceptional champion. And I'm super Do you think do

Finn Melanson [00:10:42]: you think For her and for any of these other athletes like, you know, Ingrid, Rosa, Greta, that it was more nature or more nurture just based on your research in the in the interviews that you had? Like, did you what conclusions did you come to?

Guest [00:10:54]: Wow. That's a great question. And and and, you know, I think so let me back up. 1 of the one of the kinda interesting parallels I think, that runs through this book is that is that these marathoners who who contested the medals in 1984, they came of age without really any marathoning role models, without, a path into women's Distance running, right? When, so when Joanie is, first discovering running as as her love, like the longest race for for, women is 2 and a half miles. When Greta Weitz starts running, like, distance for girls is 400 meters for her in Norway. And so, so I don't know whether it's nature or nurture, but but, you know, distance running grabbed them in a way that, I think almost compelled them to pursue something when when when there are so many messages in the rest of society saying, You don't do this. Like, girls don't do this. Like, there's no future for you in this.

Guest [00:12:14]: I mean, you know, there there wasn't even a college team for Joni when she went to When she went to college. And so I think there's I think there's a little bit of just nature. Like, somehow Running grabbed them and wouldn't let them go. And so despite all of the obstacles, they they had to pursue it.

Finn Melanson [00:12:36]: I like what you said about how well, I don't necessarily like it because it's you know, there's a there's a there's a tragedy to it, but like they had no role models. They had to be first movers in this space. I find that fascinating. I think what I wanna ask you is just based around Like, if what what would be different? Like, if you put Joanie Benoit and and Rosa Moda and Ingrid Christensen into a 2023 landscape where, You know, the women's marathon has had x number of decades to mature and to increase the number of resources and opportunities available. How much different would their experience be? Like, what were they equipped with in 1984? And how stark of a contrast was it to, You know, what somebody like, you know, Molly Seidel or, you know, Molly Huddle have at their disposal today getting ready Races like Boston and Tokyo and stuff

Guest [00:13:29]: like that. That's wow. That's a really interesting question. I think, One of the one of the important things that I that I found in in researching all 4 of these women, one thing I think they had in common, and it and it connects to my earlier point, Is that, they they all struggled at at at some point or another with Kind of doubt and and anxiety about whether this was the right path for them or or whether Maybe it's a wrong way to phrase it. Whether whether pursuing this path would be fulfilling enough, to to make it worthwhile. Right? Will the, you know, will the journey and its Rewards be worth everything you have to put into it. Yeah. And and I think every runner you know, every professional runner probably still go through that even today, but I I think one of the big differences, is that the the the external messages that you get Pretty consistently now are, yes, this is a legitimate path.

Guest [00:14:37]: This is, you know, this is something that is good and worthy. And and if you're if you're fast enough, We will support you. We being, you know, shoe companies, fans, etcetera. And so I think, you know, in some way, that probably opens up its own Issues in terms of of living up to kind of the the image that is created for, you know, for a modern professional runner and the image they sort of feel like they have to But, but I think that that at the very least, the path is there and clear and supported. And it wasn't always there or clear or supported, for for Joni. And I'd say Joni and Greta, especially because they kind of blazed the trail and then, Ingrid and Rosa came. Even just a few years after, it it there was a bit more of an explosion in professional running. Hality, I think, has shifted now.

Guest [00:15:39]: What does that mean in terms of resources available to them? You know, I suppose their lives would have been a little bit easier from the jump in terms of, the kind of money they could have made, although they, you know, they both obviously did did reasonably well. Medical treatments, they Greta and Joanie, especially, I think, were independent enough that I'm not sure they they would have been the type to sign on with, like, a pro club and have a pro coach. They sort of they were a little more, individualistic and kinda they They had advisers, but kinda charted their own path in many ways. So, so it's interesting. And then, yeah, with with modern science and modern shoes, Would they would they be in the mix for metals today? Wow. That's a that's a hell of a question.

Finn Melanson [00:16:34]: Well, one of the reasons why I'm so This is because you look at Joanie's time from 84, that was, you know, almost 40 years ago now. That would be a very competitive time still today. Like, she would be in the mix to win a lot of races. I know we just saw a woman recently run. I think it was, like, 21154 and which is wild. Just bonkers to head around. But, like, the I think the American record is somewhere around 2/19 something something in that range.

Guest [00:16:56]: So Yeah.

Finn Melanson [00:16:56]: Joni's time is, you know, only a few minutes off that.

Guest [00:17:00]: Yeah.

Finn Melanson [00:17:00]: I I just it's it's always fun to play the what if game and and think, like, if you put Joanie in her natural skill set, her, like you said, her mental toughness into this era, You know, I would assume she's still very relevant at the at the front of the sport.

Guest [00:17:14]: She would I'll tell you one thing, she would have She would have hammered with the leaders until their legs fell off. You know, I mean, the number of times she went out in 2:15 pace Yeah. And then just stepped off the gas because there was no one around her. Like yeah. So she would've yeah. She would've gone out with anyone, and I don't know.

Finn Melanson [00:17:32]: Maybe picking from the other I know we sorta went deep on on Joni there. Picking from Greta, Ingrid, and Rosa, who who else would you like to focus on? Like, who who like, of those 3, Who who stood out to you in terms of their storyline, their background that the audience might like to hear about here in this

Guest [00:17:48]: episode? I Greta, to me, is one of the most interesting characters, Because, I mean, she had a she had a very long career. Right? She was she ran the 1500 meters at the 1972 Olympics. Right? 1500 was the longest event for women until 1984, at the Olympics. So, so she she had been a world class athlete for a really long And, I one of the things I find really interesting about Her and Joni Joni as well is is they they both had to struggle with, doubts about, again, you know, whether it was worth it, but whether they were good enough to keep, you know, to keep doing this. Greta was, you know, often just, you know, just, like, Shaking before races and worried about, you know, you know, why am I doing this? You know, she like you know, she sounds like I I coached high school for long time. She she sounds like one of my high school runners. She, you know, she told her husband once on the way out to a race, I hope the bus breaks down and we don't have to do this, and and thing Just things like that. And you know what? I I think we've gotten better, in thinking about elite athletes as as humans.

Guest [00:19:20]: You know? But I I know growing up, I never thought that way. Right? They were they were always, like, not only were they physically, on another level, but but I just assumed that, you know, the same doubts that plagued me in my races, they never dealt with Xavier is so good. And Greta Greta did struggle with doubts. And yet Everybody, when you read about her, everybody says how calm and cool and, you know, Unflappable she was, and and and she's just she's holding it all in, right? She's holding it all in for the public the entire time. And, one of her one of her friends said, said to me, it it just must have been exhausting for Greta to to keep that persona in

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Finn Melanson [00:22:22]: choice. One thing I'm also interested about is, like, how much of A transformational moment or how much of an inflection point this 84 marathon was. Like, if you take if you remove the 1984 women's marathon From the broader historical context of the evolution of that part of the sport, is there anything that you imagine either doesn't happen or is significantly delayed? Like, I'm curious just how powerful this race was in getting women's running to a certain point, a level of respect, a level of professionalism, stuff like that. Do you have any thoughts

Guest [00:22:55]: there? Yeah. It's so it's it that is, you know, it's another great what if. Like, what what happens to the sport without that race? And and, you know, part of it, I would turn that around a little bit, and I would say that the The excellence, the greatness of Greta, especially, In the in the late seventies and early eighties. And then Joanie as well, made it seem absurd that there wasn't a women's Olympic marathon. And and so in part, their their greatness helped, helped drive the movement to to get the Women's Olympic marathon. Know? And so the the International Olympic Committee approves the women's marathon in 1981. And, you know, so in 1981, they say, in 84, we will have a women's Olympic marathon. And and so that fact brought More, more women into the race, and and into marathoning.

Guest [00:24:01]: And then the race itself, one of the things I think that it did was was obviously increase visibility for For Joni and Greta and and Rosa and and Ingrid and all the others. And I think One of the things that that people had to notice and and confront is that is that, these women were not just fast runners, but but, you know, so tough and and so, Such the exemplars of of what you would want to see in a in a great athlete that that it made it Kinda silly to talk about women's athletes as different from men's athletes. Right? They're like, they They were exhibiting the kind of toughness and racing ability and and fortitude that, that few men, if any, could match. And and so On a, I guess, on a on a maybe subconscious level, I think people sort of adopted a new way of looking at at women's athletics in general that it wasn't just, okay, here's, you know, here's athletics, and then here's, You know, women's athletics is like because because, the women in the marathon were were on a, you know, on a on a A different plane in terms of toughness, from, as I say, even most of the men. So so I think from then on, it's it's hard to talk about, you know, a a female athlete is being good for a girl or something like that. It's just they're really good, period. And and so that I think was a new Maybe role model for for girls and women in sport

Finn Melanson [00:25:49]: generally. Is it possible to draw a through line from, you know, that Title 9 legislation back in the seventies to making all this possible too. Like, did did did Joan Benoit Sandalson benefit, for example, from, you know, collegiate development, these other athletes as well? Like, Can you talk about that?

Guest [00:26:04]: Yeah. Joanie's such an interesting character, because she So, in college, she starts at Bowdoin College, which, you know, you probably know is up in Maine. It's a small college in Maine. They don't have a women's track or cross country program when she gets there. And so she's running on her own. She comes down to Boston to run races and Things like that. And and, she gets recruited to go to North Carolina State. And, you know, because of title 9, many of these Schools are are ramping up their their collegiate programs.

Guest [00:26:42]: And so I you know, certainly, I think without title nine, she doesn't end up in North Carolina State. But But the NC State experience is rough for her, for a number of reasons. She's homesick. You know? She's a she's a manor through and through, and and and Caroline is very different. She's not used to having teammates. And and and the way she trains, and she admits this now, she's better off not Training with other women because she,

Finn Melanson [00:27:10]: like Interesting.

Guest [00:27:11]: Reminds it very hard to run just next to somebody. So, Like, whatever the pace is, like, Joanie will start to inch ahead. And then if you've got competitive teammates, they're gonna match and they're gonna jet. And so and so, she admits this, and I I talked to, Julie Hsieh, who's one of the one of her teammates at North Carolina State. I talked to her briefly, and they both admit that they They just hammered each other every run-in practice. And so they probably were were so beat up by the time they got to races that they didn't race as well as they could. So in some ways, I think what what what Joni learned from collegiate athletics is that maybe she's better off on her own. Like, the experience was good.

Guest [00:27:53]: It you have to learn that somehow, but that she was better off training by herself for the most part. So title 9 is interesting in that way. I do think that In the larger sense of the of marathoning, I I don't have any data to back this up, but I The fact that that the more women's athletics became normalized and that, yeah, it's part of the collegiate experience now, the more people you have going into marathoning later in later in life, you know, it becomes more acceptable for for women to try to be competitive. And and so I think I think it probably helped grow the numbers of of marathoning that way. Interestingly enough, like, The movement to get the Olympic marathon started included, and many of the early great marathoners. I mean, they didn't come up to the US system. So title 9 didn't really impact Greta or Ingrid or or Rosa, because they they came up running elsewhere.

Finn Melanson [00:29:10]: It's so interesting. I I my Like, early life background is primarily team sports based baseball, basketball, football. And I think I always took it for granted. My peers always took it for granted that, You know, we're we're social beings. We benefit from this group environment. We we benefit from sort of, like, self transcendence in in thinking about the group. And as I've gotten into this running community the last let's call it like 6 to 8 years, it is interesting to find that there are Many exceptions to the rule to the extent that you might even want to rethink the rule. Like, people like Joanie just benefit from sort of this like solitary training and Maybe it's actually counterproductive for them to be on these teams and in those types of settings because they, you know, they run their race in training.

Finn Melanson [00:29:56]: I don't know if you have any thoughts there, but I I just find that fascinating.

Guest [00:30:00]: No. It is alright. So, you know, so as I say, I coached for a long time. And and and One thing that I will say about coaching, distance runners is that It it can be just a a really profound bonding experience for for everybody. Like, you know, I I played I played team sports as well, growing up. And, you know, yeah, you're you're hanging out, talking with your teammates. But, you know, practice a lot of times, like, it it's less just talking. It's I'm more you know, you've gotta, you know, figure out what, you know, what place you're running and who belongs where.

Guest [00:30:35]: But running, you know, you send guys out for a 90 minute run. They got nothing to do but talk to each other for 90 minutes. And and so there's running aside, I think there's some really profound bonding that that can happen on on team runs and group runs that I think can be really, really great. And yet There are enough runners that are that are sort of introverted and need, you know, need some time. You talk about, you know, Self transcendence. I think, you know, running on your own is sort of a different path toward that, if that makes sense. It's sort of It's not so much losing yourself in the in the collective of team as just, you know, losing yourself and and letting letting your mind go wherever you go. Yeah.

Guest [00:31:24]: Yeah. Yeah. And and you you talked to Joni today, and That's what she craves most from running. It's just that time to let her mind go where it needs to go. And so, you know, she's still trying to get out there even now.

Finn Melanson [00:31:43]: Were there any other people that you interviewed for the book or that you just observed or you know, discovered in your research that were Interesting or instrumental to what transpired in 84. Like, it could be race organizers. It could be coaches. It could be Media. Like, does anyone come to mind? And and if so, like, what made them just an interesting part of this history?

Guest [00:32:08]: I mean, so many people. I, I I I, I read an interview with Doris Kearns Goodwin, some years ago, and and, you know, she'd written biographies of of many, You know, many mostly presidential biographies. But she said the one thing she said in this interview that stuck with me is that you have to write about People you like because you're gonna be spending a lot of time with them, if you're writing about them. And and, writing this book and researching this book, I came back to that again and again because I just I found the people so fascinating. In particular, a group that that is it probably still doesn't get the credit they deserve. But The the women's running pioneers that that came before, Joni and Greta are are such remarkable figures, because they really had nobody to, to follow. So, You know, Bobbie Gibb, for example, ran the Boston Marathon in 1966. And and as far as we know, she's the 1st woman to run Boston.

Guest [00:33:26]: And she did it after she received a letter from the race director saying women weren't allowed. And furthermore, women couldn't I run the marathon distance. And so Bobby Gibb, at that point, was so mad, she decided she had to run it. And Katherine Switzer runs it the next year as does Gibb. But then there's this other this other group of women who who came to marathoning. Jackie Hanson, who, set a world record in the marathon. I think she's the 1st woman to go under 240 in a marathon. And, Cheryl Trivergy, who Also, I was a world record holder and, incidentally, is the mother of Shlain Flanagan.

Guest [00:34:14]: But you talk to these women, and and what What you recognize is how self possessed and and how, independent minded you had to be to be a female distance runner in the 19 Sixties and early seventies because, yeah, there were so many institutional forces arrayed against them. And, and what I think is really interesting about these women is that is that they've gone on to incredible careers Post running. Right? Like, you know, like, whether they're they're they're doctorates or lawyers or or artists or or, all kinds of things. They're just just wonderfully free spirited people. And and I think maybe because of what they went through, Sort of have a have a very kinda quiet and settled confidence about who they are and what they're about that I just found wonderful. And and yeah. So they're they're kind of unsung heroes. I if you watch an interview with Joan Benoit from minutes after she finishes the Olympic race, Like, they're the people she talks about right away.

Guest [00:35:31]: She like she makes a point of thanking the early pioneers of women's, marathoning, which I thought was, I don't know if she planned that or if it just off the top of her head, but I thought it was a really remarkably impressive gesture, for that to be on our mind right after winning the 1st Olympic gold medal. So so learning about those women, was was truly eye opening for

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Finn Melanson [00:38:01]: I like how you emphasized that, you know, in that early era, these women needed to be fiercely independent. They needed to be free spirited. That had to be a part of their DNA or just their disposition make this Awesome. It makes me wonder like sort of as a thought experiment for the present day, who are the comparable people in our society today, Either in the running world or in other areas of life that we should recognize as, you know, representative of probably a larger trend that's going to evolve in the future. It's just A fun thought experiment. But one thing I wanted to ask you about because, you know, there probably are some people who aren't even born yet listening to this episode, watching this episode. You know, they weren't even around for that 84 marathon in, you know, the decades before that. What were some of the forces working against These women to participate in the sport, because I think I think it's just worth, you know, sort of comparing contrasting opportunities today versus roadblocks yesterday.

Guest [00:38:56]: Yeah. So, so, you know, a couple examples. You know, Grito Weitz, she's I'm 12 years old, and she she finds a pair of track spikes in her attic and puts them on, and and literally transported. Corded. And and she spends the afternoon, like, racing cars up and down the street in front of her apartment, complex. That week, she she begs her parents to join the local athletic club. And so she goes with her brother to join the athletic club, And they tell her no because they don't accept girls. So so, you know, that you know, simply and and so I think for for any number of us, That would have been it.

Guest [00:39:40]: Like, okay. I'll find something else. Instead, she begs her parents again and and ends up, you know, taking a bus across town, across, Oslo to join a different club, and they do accept girls. But, but even you know, one I think one of the big things that Greta had to face is that her parents really didn't support it and and, in in ways that we might find shocking now, they would you know, her her mom asked her at one point, like, why are you doing this? You're never gonna be any good. And, you know, her father just isn't that interested, and they're trying to raise a traditional girl, you know, and She's not that. Joanie similarly talks about realizing at some point that even in you know, okay, in the United States, in the late sixties seventies, it it's becoming more okay for girls to to, you know, do different things and play sports. But, You know, what what she realized, I think, is that it might be okay for a woman to be an elite athlete in in the United States, but It's still not okay for girls to to do the kinds of things it takes to become an elite athlete, to to show competitiveness and aggression, in playing Sports around other people. And and she realizes that if she's gonna hold true to that, she's kinda gotta keep that side of her under wraps a lot of times in, in, you know, trying to fit in, you know, socially.

Guest [00:41:15]: And so those kind of subtle messages, I think, that that Girls and women got I think they still do. Well, I know they still do. I, you know, I teach in high school, and I I still see it. We've become more supportive, but still, there are lots of ways that that female athletes, especially growing up, are told, like, that's weird, In a way that for guys, it's really supported. You know? Now it gets summer, it's more blatant. Like, Rosa Moda, You know, when she was running in Portugal, like, you know, people would scream at her, like, go home and help your mom with the dishes and things like that. And that's like you know, that, I think was a reality, in a lot of places. So for these for these women to have I come through that as girls holding true to sort of this dream and desire to be a runner is, I think, truly impressive.

Finn Melanson [00:42:11]: I can't remember if you mentioned this in the book or in an interview about the book, but you did mention that In these early women's races, a lot of them were sponsored by cosmetic companies, which is cool, which on one hand is cool to me because it's like in the running world, we're always hoping to attract more non endemic sponsors and brands in this because it brings more money, more stability to the athletes, the races, the ecosystem. That's cool. But I'm curious, like, on the other hand, was there just a lack of interest from, you know, your normal running brands like the footwear companies, the gear companies, Or were they there just as much? Or was there a hesitancy for some reason?

Guest [00:42:51]: Wow. So that's a great question, and I I think so to back up, like, way historically. Right? In 1920 is the 1st year that that women are in Olympics for track and field at all. And they are, the athletes at the time, like, you see in newspaper articles from time and all this. They know, running is gonna turn them into men. Right? So so a female athlete will be masculinized By trying to run at all. And so it's it is, as you say, this wonderful leap toward, you know, by the 1970s for, For women to be you know, get the message that maybe running can make them beautiful, and and so why are, why are cosmetic companies so involved in running? I think because that was their market. Right.

Guest [00:43:47]: Young women, and and distance running was an upper middle class Sport, had become an upper middle class sport by sort of the sixties seventies. And so, so I think the assumption was, yes, for a cosmetics company, you know, this is a great thing to be involved in. Why wouldn't, say, Adidas Or somebody sponsor women's races? I Adidas was you know, they were, there, but I think the maybe the assumption was not enough women are gonna be buying shoes to make it worth our while, Whereas a cosmetics company can assume, you know, all these women are gonna buy cosmetics. So I think that's probably why. But it did, you know, it did create, and and it persists. This this A connection between women's athletics and its marketability and a a nearly impossible beauty standard to uphold. And I think, you know, if you read Lauren Fleischman's Good Memoir and and you you look at some of the things that that, like, Tara Goucher, post about you you see the reality is that that that issue is still there. It's still part of women's athletics.

Finn Melanson [00:45:08]: Interesting. Well, just a couple more questions here before we wrap up and I know we haven't gotten much into like sort of the X's and O's of the races and how they were executed in the training. But, I'm sure it will be covered on other interviews. I just Anyways, what other messages or takeaways Do you have from the book maybe stuff we haven't quite discussed here today that you want readers to feel or to take and to utilize in some way After after reading, Long Run to Glory.

Guest [00:45:39]: I think, You know, I I to me, the the 2 biggest things that I keep coming back to, is the way that, nearly everybody I spoke to, for the book, near everybody I researched in the running world, all all had this kind of Inarticulable, mystical connection to running. Like like, running somehow got its hooks into them and never let go. And, you know, I I certainly feel that for myself. And and and and what I kinda liked about the research is that, It it didn't mean that that everybody is gonna run a 100 miles a week and and be this in, you know, This this superhuman athlete is more just, when running, you know, connects with your soul or or whatever you wanna call it, You know, that should be a profoundly, joyful thing for you. And and sometimes Running becomes not this thing I want to do or I get to do, but this thing I have to do. And and to me, researching it was this constant reminder of of, You know, what an amazing experience it is just even to go out for a half an hour run and just feel good to be outside and To not lose sight of that in the midst of, you know, whatever other pressures one might feel for running. And so that, You know, that was maybe really inspiring for me as a writer. And, you know, the other thing that that I know we've covered it, but what I I think it is so important to recognize that as great as these athletes are, they're people too.

Guest [00:47:30]: And the same Doubts and insecurities about, you know, running or their profession that We may feel, they felt as well. And their resilience in overcoming that, I think, It's an important message, and and I think we've gotten better as a society about, you know, recognizing the humanity of great athletes, but but But I think it's important not only to recognize that they face the same doubts that we do, but to look at some of the ways that they Talked themselves back into doing doing the work they did. I think there's there's some resilience that we can try to model in our lives as

Finn Melanson [00:48:16]: well. What is, what's your current fascination or what is the next fascination? Like, are are you 1 and done with this book or do you have do you have do you already have another one in Python. Like, is this sort of like a new

Guest [00:48:26]: addiction? There so the problem I have right now is there there are a couple of things I'm really interested in writing about, and And I I I need to settle on 1. And, you know, I think, you know, with with writing, I think you've got to You've gotta find the thing that that really won't let you go, in order to to make it Something that you will, you know, stick to day in and day out for the next, like gosh. I don't know. I started this book in 2019. So, so, you know, it took probably 3 plus years of writing. So so what am I willing to Stick with what do I need to get out of me that that I'll spend 3 years on it. That's I've gotta figure out which which which path I'm gonna go down for that. But, yeah, there definitely will be more.

Finn Melanson [00:49:27]: Cool. Well, Steven, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you. I really enjoyed the book. We we have a lot of authors in the show where we, you know, we get into sort of like the performance science of running. And One thing I liked about this book among many things is it makes meaning like sort of like philosophical meaning about a particular era or a moment of the sport. And I want to see more, more books like that. This is this is one. I recommend everyone go read it.

Finn Melanson [00:49:52]: Although I just learned you can also you can listen to it on Apple, right, too? There's an audio version of the book?

Guest [00:49:58]: Did that come out? I I think it did. I saw

Finn Melanson [00:50:00]: a link on Google.

Guest [00:50:01]: Yeah. Okay. I that's in the pipeline. I wasn't I wasn't sure it was out yet. But if it is, that's fantastic. I'll have to look because I think I mean, you know, runners like to listen to books too. But I appreciate what I I really appreciate what you said, what you said about it because I do think, You know, running is this there's there is this sort of mental and and kind of soulful side to it. Maybe you you just have so much time inside your own head that that it prompts more thinking about it.

Guest [00:50:36]: And so that's certainly something I wanted to capture about about these athletes. So I appreciate saying that. And it was an absolute pleasure to be on the show. So

Finn Melanson [00:50:45]: Awesome. Well, we'll make sure to link to everything in the show notes well, again, the book is called Long Run to Glory. And yeah. Thank you so much.

Guest [00:50:52]: Thank you.

Finn Melanson [00:51:08]: Thanks for listening to the Run to the Top podcast. I'm your host, Finn Melanson. As always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. Please consider connecting with me on Instagram at Wasatch Finn and the rest of our team at Runners Connect. Also consider supporting our show for free with a rating on the Spotify and Apple Podcast players. And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content, behind the scenes experiences with our guests, and premier access contests and giveaways can subscribe to our newsletter by going to runnersconnect.netback/podcast. Until next time, happy