Losing Weight While Running Fast: Interview with Nancy Clark

Finn Melanson [00:00:13]: Hello, fellow runners. I'm your host, Finn Malanson, and this is the run to the top podcast. The podcast dedicated to making you a better runner with each and every episode. We are created and produced by the expert team of coaches at runnersconnect.net, you can find the best running information on the Internet as well as training plans to fit every runner in every budget. Running and weight loss are two terms that always seem to go hand in hand. Almost everyone that wants to lose weight think they need to start running or run more. But as you've heard us talk about before, for runners like us whose primary goal is to run faster, and stay injury free, running in weight loss is a lot more complicated than many realize. Is weight loss actually gonna help your running? If it is a primary or secondary goal of yours, what is the best approach to not sacrifice your running progress? What are the common traps that runners fall into that derail either their weight loss or running goals, and how do you prevent them? Well, on the show today is one of the leading experts in running nutrition Nancy Clark. Nancy has over 35 years of experience helping thousands of active clients from ordinary mortals to Olympians win with good nutrition. Her best selling Nancy Clark's Sports Nutrition guidebook has sold over 600,000 copies, and her nutrition advice and photo have even graced the back of the Weede's box. Today, she's gonna help us dig into how to approach weight loss while still maintaining your running performance. We'll go over why losing or maintaining weight while properly fueling is so difficult for most runners. The biggest mistakes runners make when trying to lose fat All the factors or runners should consider when determining how many calories to consume and the consequences of fad diets and much, much more. I'm excited to share this one with you guys. It's chock full of amazing advice. Let's get into it. Today's episode is sponsored by magnesium breakthrough from biophomizers. Their industry leading magnesium supplement helps you better and reduce stress. Head to magbreakthrough.comforward/run to the top to learn more and save 10%. If you're looking for the most effectively dosed electrolyte dream for runners, check out element. It's loaded with everything you need to replenish your related balance, and you can get a free sample pack by going to drinklmnt.comforward/ Runners Connect. Hi, Nancy. We are honored to have you on the show today. For those that aren't familiar with who you are, can you give us a little bit of background about yourself and your expertise?

Guest [00:03:03]: I'm a registered dietitian. I specialize in nutrition and exercise, so I have a private practice in the Boston area. where I work a lot with runners. And I help people find peace with food for those that are struggling with food and have a a complicated relationship with food and exercise and running and body weight. And I help those that just wanna perform optimally. and they know that their diet is their missing length. I run myself not as much as I used to because I have some knees that I'm trying to you know, protect for the rest of my life, and I have a dog that I run with, and I ride my bike to work. And I've done my share of marathons, and I just enjoy living an active healthy life.

Finn Melanson [00:03:53]: Why is losing or maintaining weight while properly fueling so difficult for most runners.

Guest [00:04:00]: Well, runners tend to get hungry. and, you know, the more you run, the hunger you get. And hunger is very powerful physiological phenomena. And when you get too hungry, it's very easy to overeat. And runners think that if they wanna lose weight, they need to cut their food intake in half. and then they get too hungry, and then they blow it and they eat the whole thing. And they might be good Monday through Thursday, but Friday, Saturday, Sunday. They do a pretty good job of overeating because we know that when the diet starts on Monday, people do a heck of a lot of eating over the weekend. So most runners that I work with, they they say, oh, I know what I should do. I just don't do it. But unfortunately, they think they need to starve themselves. And it's like, no. They need to just kinda chip away.

Finn Melanson [00:04:52]: What are some of the biggest mistakes runners make when trying to lose fat.

Guest [00:04:57]: There are lots of mistakes they make. 1, as I mentioned, is that they cut back way too much. They get too hungry. They also think that carbohydrates are fattening. It's like how can I carboload? How can I fuel my muscles? How can I hit potato and rice and pasta if those foods are fattening? And carbs aren't fattening. Excess calories at the end of the day are fattening. And I'd say that most runners also think that diet started breakfast. You know, you get up in the morning and you have your special k. or you heavier diet toast or whatever it is. And people say, well, I'm so good at breakfast. I'm so good at lunch, but I'm so bad. at night. And it's like, no. No. No. No. You wanna eat breakfast, eat lunch, and then lose weight when you're sleeping. So runners just they think they know what to do, but, actually, They don't.

Finn Melanson [00:05:51]: Why is running considered the best way to burn fat? Should runners supplement running with other types of exercise to achieve their desired weight loss?

Guest [00:06:01]: Well, I don't really care if runners burn fatter carbs because weight loss is really depends on at the end of the day, have you created an energy deficit? So I know that I could go to a long run, and I could burn off a 1000 calories. And I could go on a slow run, long, slow run, and burn mostly 1000 calories of fat or whatever. But I could also come back in in 10 minutes to replace all those calories with you know, hot fudge sundae, half a pizza, you know, 20 Oreos. It's really easy to replace calories that you burn off. And and so it doesn't matter what your how many calories you burn with exercise. What matters is at the end of the day, have you created a deficit? and then that dips into your body store. So you need to fuel during the day and then try to lose weight at nighttime.

Finn Melanson [00:06:55]: Given our runner's particular TDEE, What sort of caloric deficit should he or she shoot for when trying to lose weight while also feeling properly?

Guest [00:07:07]: the calorie deficit, I call it chipping away as opposed to slashing your diet. And So when I counsel clients or say I meet with them 1 on 1, ask them what a typical day of food is, do more thorough intake, and get a really clear picture of what they're doing, and then try to figure out how they could knock off 200, 400 calories in a day. I know one client who just knocked off, he said Nancy, I lost £30 this year. and he did it by he stopped drinking Pepsi at lunch and at dinner. So he knocked off 300 calories a day. Now theoretically, if you knock off a 100 calories a day, that translates into £10 of fat loss a year. So if you knock off 300 calories a day, that's £30 a year, and that's what he did. He said, I see everything I did. So just chipping away and knocking off a little bit is what the goal is. But most people think, oh, I should be on a 1200 calorie diet. They don't even know how many calories they need to maintain their weight, but they just pick this number out of a hat. So it it's really worthwhile for people to meet with a sports dietitian. to learn about their calorie needs, what would be realistic in terms of weight loss and how to just chip away. but what people do is that they diet too hard, get too hungry, and then they blow it. And it gets very, very frustrating for a lot of the people that I work.

Finn Melanson [00:08:44]: What other factors should a runner consider when determining how many calories to consume?

Guest [00:08:50]: Well, when I estimate energy needs, I look at how many calories they need to lie in bed and breathe and do nothing, the resting metabolic rate. and then figure out how many calories they burn off. They're just their daily coming and going. Their activities of daily living without their purposeful exercise. and then add in more for a purposeful exercise so that they're able to to see that even if they don't exercise, they still deserve to eat and that they could still lose weight. I mean, people in the hospital lose weight and they aren't exercising. So I I tend to separate exercise and weight. And tend to just figure out how they can eat just a little bit A lot of people think that salads oh, I'm on a diet. I should have a salad for dinner. So they have a big salad. Well, A little bit of dressing on a big salad is a lot of dressing, and it can be a lot of calories. Like in a restaurant, you know, they easily put out 400 calories of dressing on a dinner salad. easily. And that's just calories of fat with not much nutritional value in it. So just sort of helping people look at what they're eating and how they what what they couldn't chip away. But it it does help to know what the calorie budget is because when you look at a food label, You know, you pick up a yogurt and says 150 calories. Well, what's what's the context? And and so when I work with my clients, like, say, I estimate they're calorie needs and then divide it into 4 food buckets so that, say, just the other day as we're working with a woman, and she required about 24100 calories to maintain weight. So we figured that's a lose weight. You knock off 10%, twenty percent. You'd be losing it 2000 calories. Then divide that into 4 food buckets. So that's 500 calories for breakfast, 500 for lunch, 500 for second lunch, 500 for dinner, And the purpose of the first three meals is to ruin the appetite. So then come dinner time. She's not that hungry. and just has a lighter dinner. And, you know, if someone's training at the end of the day, they need the breakfast, first lunch, and second lunch, just in order to get to the gym, yeah, or to get out the door. And then, again, they arrive home, and they aren't starving. So then they have the energy to do something called chopped vegetables for dinner and and cook up, you know, a healthy meal as opposed to the whole pint of haagen Dazs or whatever. So it it's important to have an under standing of the calorie budget. But the bottom line is the body is the best calorie counter, and it's important I teach my clients how to listen to their body. and to understand that there's a place called starved, stomach growling starved on a diet starved. There's a place called stuffed like things. Giving stuffed below the diet stuffed But there's a place in the middle that's called content. So a starved is 1, stuffed is 10. Content is 5. then they wanna hang out about 4 a half where they're just a little bit hungry. They aren't they aren't hungry. They aren't full. They aren't quite content. They could eat a little bit more, and that's just the place to to hang out. So the body can do this intuitively if people pay attention to their body and if people trust their body. And that's the big issue, not trusting what the body tells them.

Finn Melanson [00:12:33]: From a nutritional standpoint, should men and women approach weight loss differently?

Guest [00:12:41]: No. Both men and women, they need to learn how to eat and not how to diet. We know that diets do not work. If diets worked, then everybody in America who's ever been on a diet would be thin. and 2 thirds of Americans are overweight or obese. So I'm not putting most runners into that category, but but yet diets are the problem and not the solution. So I teach people how to eat and how to eat breakfast eat lunch, eat a second lunch, and then eat a little bit little bit less at the end of the day. So men need to learn this. Women need to learn this. There's really not a a a difference. The problem the difference comes in is a psychological relationship with food so that Most women have been on a diet since they were in 4th grade. So you diet through elementary school, middle school, high school, college, and, you know, childbearing years. then it gets to be midlife. And it's like, man, I've been dieting my whole life. I think it's time to start hitting a little bit more ice cream, you know, and fewer beans. And the and so that they they they really could have had a lot more enjoyable life if they'd learned how to eat and not how to diet. That's the denial and deprivation that goes with dieting.

Finn Melanson [00:14:09]: What are the consequences of, quote, unquote, fad diets?

Guest [00:14:15]: Well, the consequences are if you go on a diet, then the only way to have something yummy is to go off a diet. And then I say, if the diet starts on Monday, and here it is Saturday, you know, well, you know, I blew it. I just had chocolate chip pancakes for breakfast. better keep blowing it today and blowing it tomorrow because on Monday, I'm back on my diet with my shredded wheat and skim milk. And and and so it's important to learn how to manage chocolate chip pancakes. to learn how to manage birthdays, to learn how to manage social eating, and to learn how to manage not getting too hungry. But there's a diet portion of any food. And and what happens is that people, when they go on a diet, they stay away from, let's say, cookies. And then cookies all of a sudden have power over them. They go, oh, keep the cookies out of my house. I can't have just one. well, they can't have just one because, you know, that's last chance eating. It's like, oh, I just had one. Now I've blown it. I better keep following it now because I can never have them again for the rest of my life. It's like, no. It's better to have cookies every day. to learn how to manage cookies, cookies of breakfast, lunch, second lunch, dinner. After 3 days of cookies, you know, it's like, Where's the shredded wheat and skim milk? No. But it's it's staying away from food creates a lot of problems.

Finn Melanson [00:15:44]: How should runners looking to lose weight plan their eating around special occasions? So events like birthdays, Thanksgiving, etcetera.

Guest [00:15:54]: Hi. Once I did a survey of just a random survey of some friends and set up the scenario, there's gonna be a you know, a summer barbecue and all the friends are gonna be there. There's gonna be lots of food, and and all the women were like, oh, no. There's gotta be potato chips. So there's gonna be, you know, nachos and hamburgers. It's like, oh, no. I'm gonna overeat and get that. and all the men were like, oh, it's gonna be volleyball, and we're gonna be having fun playing games and seeing my buddies. And the men were focusing on the party and the people. And the women like, oh, no. There's gonna be food. And and if you go to a party, 1, don't go starving. Don't save up calories to go to this party because then when you go there too hungry, you're just setting the stage for overeating. So you go to the party to enjoy the people. And if you're going out to eat, are you going out to eat or you're going out, have a good fun time with your friends. So you put food at the bottom of the priority list. And that's yes when you go out to eat, yes, actually. Yes. There'll be food there, but you're going out to have fun. And and so it's just shifting social events as being, oh, my last chance to eat like yummy food to, you know, time to be with your friends and family.

Finn Melanson [00:17:18]: How does age factor into weight loss? Does metabolism really slow down as we age?

Guest [00:17:25]: Well, tablets and slows down a little bit, but what really slows down is just daily activity. You know, think of it this way. Kittens when they're young are really playful. and then they turn into cats that sleep all day. You know, puppies when they're young are really playful, and then they turn into dogs that just lounge around all day. And toddlers when they're young are really active, and then they grow turn into adults that can sit all day so that there's a decline in activity that is really the major change. But, yes, there are some metabolic changes as well. But just to maintain muscle mass is one of the most important things that a runner can do to lift weights, do do push ups because muscle is really an active tissue, and it burns calories. So by maintaining muscles, that makes a huge difference in being able to maintain the amount of food that you can eat.

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Guest [00:20:42]: Well, runners I I totally separate exercise and weight. 1, you should exercise for enjoyment. And 2 at the end of the day, you figure out if you're gonna lose maintain or gain weight. So if someone is trying to train for a marathon and lose weight at the same time, They're probably in for surprise. I have more novice runners call me up and say, Nancy. Am I the only runner Marathon runner who's ever gained weight training for a marathon, it's like, no. There are a lot of you because you try to diet and train, get way too hungry, keep blowing it. So the way to balance carbs proteins fats, is to yeah. I mean, protein needs it really based on your body weight. You need a certain number of grams approaching per pound of body weight. And then once you have those protein grams of protein so you say you need 80 grams of protein. You divide that into your 4 food buckets. 20 grams of protein per bucket. So you want protein paste evenly throughout the day because protein's satisfying. It's satiating. It keeps you feeling fed. And then you fill in the rest with grains, fruits, vegetables. We don't eat carbs and proteins of fat. speak grains, fruits, vegetables, you know, lean meats, beans, nuts, dairy, you know, calcium rich foods. So I don't talk about these macronutrients as much as food because that's what we really eat. So the trick is you that the foundation of each meal should be carbohydrate based because that's what fuels the muscles. you know, grains, fruits, vegetables fuel the muscles and replace depleted muscle glycogen stores. Protein bills and repairs. You want three times more grains foods vegetables than you do protein rich foods. And in this day and age, people are eating three times more protein than grains, and so they got it backwards. So, again, they have dead legs. They feel really tired. And they think, oh, that's because I'm too fat. It's like, no. It's because you aren't fueling well. And when they start having, you know, more grains and less protein, they go, wow. I feel better. Again, there are benefits to working with a sports dietitian. Yeah.

Finn Melanson [00:22:59]: What's the importance of fat in a runner's diet? Like, how do you feel about the high fat, low carb diet, for example?

Guest [00:23:07]: There are 2 answers. 1, this keto if you're a keto athlete or going on a high fat, low carb diet. What it does is it sets up a whole bunch of very rigid rules and regulations about what you can eat. and, like, how much olive oil can you drink. And so going into ketosis is meaning a very, very low carb diet only, you know, 20 to 50 grams of carbohydrate a day, which is is brutal. And it's going on a diet It's not teaching you how to manage what caused you to gain weight in the first place. So weight management really is problem solving. It's managing the American food supply, the American lifestyle. Going in ketosis is just going on the food plan. I don't think you really wanna maintain it for the rest of your life. I mean, do you never really wanna have birthday cake again? You know, do you never wanna have pasta again. And some people will say yes. Because for them, there's freedom in not binging on those foods. You know, many of the people that are keto athletes Now I wouldn't say all of them, but I'd say many of them have eating disorders, and this is their way to keep them from binging on the whole box of crackers. because I stop any crackers. That is an important part of a of of a balanced diet. You need fat to absorb certain vitamins. So if you have a salad and don't put any olive oil on it, you can't absorb the you know, the vitamin a in the spinach, and so you don't get as much nutritional value from it. So in each of the food buckets, you want some sort of fat because it you needed to you know, absorb certain vitamins, but also it makes the food taste better. And it's also satiating. It it it just makes you feel fed and takes longer to empty from the stomach. So if you're having just an apple, for snack is like it comes and it goes. But if you have apple with cheese, apple with peanut butter, then you'll feel more fed and you're more satiated because the fat is is good, plus you can absorb. Like, say, it helps to absorb certain nutrients. So in every meal, you want a little bit of fat. What happens is you don't. I mean, just the analogy would be you know, how in France they cook with cream and butter and all these rich foods? And then what do they have for dessert? you know, a slice of pear. Whereas in the States, we have chicken grill dry, dried potato, steamed broccoli, And then you stare at your friend and say, yeah. You might go out price, Pete. And then you go and you get this rich gourmet ice cream. Whereas if you'd had a a satiating, satisfying dinner that tasted yummy, you you wouldn't you'd be content with just a slice of pear for dessert.

Finn Melanson [00:26:07]: How should runners time their caloric intake throughout their day to fuel their training, facilitate recovery, burn fat, etcetera?

Guest [00:26:16]: It doesn't really matter at the kind of the day. They always wanna surround their workout with food, so you always wanna be fueling up and refuel it. And and then at nighttime is when you just chip off a little bit. So when you fuel during the day, then you kind of ruin your appetite. Then at night you're looking at your dinner, and you're about to reach for more. And you you look at your you say, does my body need this food? How much does it need? Would I rather be leaner, or would I rather eat more? Would I rather wake up ready for breakfast? and be hungrier or to rather eat more now. And that's when they decide. So training is always fueling up and refueling and surrounding the workout with food. On a long run day, you know, they'll be hungrier. I mean, like, when you drive your car longer, it needs more gas. So the same thing with your body. Some people say they aren't hungry on a long run day. It's the next day, and that's because the muscles are a little Pacman. And, like, Where's the carbs to fuel? Where's the protein to build and repair? And the muscles, you know, 247 are always refueling. So on a long run day the day after, is when sometimes people feel hungrier. And even on a rest day, people should eat just as much because the muscles are busy refueling. That's why you take your rest day so the muscles have time to refuel. But a lot of people go, oh, no. I didn't run today. I don't get to eat today. but I'm starving. Well, hunger is simply a request for fuel if you are starving. It's because you are starving. You are hungry. and you want to honor hunger and trust your body in what it's requesting.

Finn Melanson [00:28:00]: What other areas of lifestyle factor into one's ability to lose weight?

Guest [00:28:06]: Well, I think it's sleep is an essential part of a weight management program. There is a study that was done with some people who are sick deprived, and they enforced an extra hour a half of sleep a night. And they reported that their cravings for junk food and sweets drop by 2 thirds. I mean, just think of how many calories that save them. And and so we know that sleep deprivation and weight go hand weight gain. Go hand in hand. So when people are sleep deprived, just like am I hungry? Am I tired? I don't know, but it's like, where is the chocolate chip cookies? And and so that your body gets dysregulated, And the hormones that make you feel full are very, very quiet. And the signals that make you feel hungry are very, very loud. So it's like, am I hungry? Am I tired? I don't know. But I need something good to eat because I need a hug. You know? And so sleep, just making you know, every every diet program should start with sleep, making it a priority. And if you can't do it every night, at least figure out, well, I can go to bed earlier on Tuesday. Yeah. And Thursday, and, like, Sunday. You know, just figure out look at your week ahead of you and figure out what days you're gonna go to bed earlier.

Finn Melanson [00:29:27]: How important is hydration to weight loss?

Guest [00:29:32]: You know, there are those that say Sometimes you're you want something. And so you think, well, do I want a yogurt? Do we eat an apple? Do I want food? and so that they eat when they're wanting something, but, really, they might just be thirsty. And so that to drink can be a good idea. But We also know that in the animal kingdom, like, birds, if they're dehydrated, they don't eat. And so I'm not sure there's I I I haven't seen a lot of research on hydration and weight management. But as a runner to stay hydrated, we'll enhance performance. And and so I don't recommend dehydration as a diet plan.

Finn Melanson [00:30:16]: How do you suggest runners determine a realistic eating plan?

Guest [00:30:21]: Well, I would highly recommend that runners that are feeling confused and just throwing up their hands. Like, what do I do to meet with a sports dietitian in their area, go up to the website, scandpg.org, sandpg.org, and find a sports site in their local area and get one on one advice because each person's lifestyle and food likes and health situations are just individual. If and in many states, health insurances nutrition services are now covered by health insurance. And so it's worth looking into that, you could call up your health insurance plan. to see if they cover nutrition services, which comes under preventive care. So Obamacare has been good in terms of nutrition services. If they aren't willing to meet, go to that effort. You know, if you have a training plan, you also want a food plan. And and so, like I say but if somehow you think you have to do it on your own, then certainly, my sports nutrition guidebook would be a good way to get a foundation, and it talks about estimating your energy needs figuring out how much protein you need, you know, how to balance breakfast and munch and snacks and dinner. So that would has been a handy reference for a lot of people. But the concept is timeline, for food bucket, a food bucket every 4 hours. If you're in college, maybe your first bucket is lunch. 2nd bucket is second lunch, 3rd bucket is dinner, 2nd 4th bucket is second dinner. Yeah. It it just really sort of depends.

Finn Melanson [00:32:11]: What are some tips for healthy long term success, not just immediate weight loss that's often gained back?

Guest [00:32:18]: Well, the tips I've sort of talked about is fuel by day. And if you wanna lose weight, you do that at nighttime. when you're looking for something to eat before you go to bed, would I rather be leaner, would I rather eat more? And so fuel by day, die by night, You wanna eat foods that have power over you? Most people try to stay away from chips. Keep them out of my house. No. If a food has power over you, it means you'd like it. You need to eat it more often to take the power away. So if you like chips as a kid, you like them today, you like them in the future. The only reason they hit power over you is because you don't eat them enough. The Apple said power over you? Cara said power over you? Yeah. because you can have them whenever you want. So learn to manage foods that you truly like, eat them, get enough of them, eat them, you know, often enough. And learn how to and that's part of learning how to eat and not how to diet. And people who eat are thin People who diet are heavy. So clearly, dieting makes you heavy, and eating helps you be lean. So think about eating instead of dieting.

Finn Melanson [00:33:34]: So can you tell us a bit about your consultation services?

Guest [00:33:39]: Sure. I work with the whole spectrum from ordinary models to Europeans to professional athletes. I work a lot with high school college kids, and teaching them how to manage the American food supply, how to manage food, weight, life, stress, sleep so that they can create a program that works a fueling program that works for them in their lifestyle. So meeting with people 1 on 1, and it's just a great investment. Like I say, if you have a training plan, you might as well have a food fueling plan because people think that performance starts with training. Actually, performance starts with eating if you really think about it. You have a car, you put gas in it, it goes. You have a body, you put food in it. It goes a lot better. I also have 2 other books. I have a food guide for marathoners, which I really wrote to help team of training, joints and motion, a lot of the charity numbers, the novice runners, but it it's for anyone that's just new to marathoning. It's it's called food guide for marathoners, tips for everyday champions. just for ordinary models. And I have a food guide for new runners for people that are just, you know, really starting out from scratch so that Those are quick and easy books. They both my sports nutrition guide book and my food guide for runners and marathoners. They have sections like, say, day to day eating, sports specific information, weight management information, and recipes.

Finn Melanson [00:35:27]: Thanks for listening to the run to the top podcast. I'm your host, Finn Malanson, as always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode. Please consider connecting with me on instagram@wausat Fin, and the rest of our team at Runners Connect, also consider supporting our show for free with a rating on the Spotify in Apple Pod cast players. And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content behind the scenes experiences with our guests and premier access to contests and giveaways, and subscribe to our newsletter by going to runners connect dot net backslash podcast. Until next time, happy trading.